There's a saying that some of us sometimes use here at TimeGhost: "Young, dumb, and full of cum". With so many WW2 movies starring middle aged A list Hollywood actors, it's easy to forget that this war is largely being fought by teenagers and people in their very early 20s. With that might perhaps come a certain level of impulsiveness, insecurity, and lack of critical thinking that we all develop as we become older and wiser. Mix that in with extremely high levels of stress, and fear for ones life, and it's not hugely surprising that mix ups can happen - often deadly. So as absurd as this skirmish may be, remember that we were all once young, dumb, and full of cum, and that even the older and wiser among us could make such tragic mistakes under stress. What are some mistakes you made when you were younger? Rules: community.timeghost.tv/t/rules-of-conduct/4518)
I’ve known about the Battle of Brisbane for a while now and what I find ironic is that despite all the underlying tensions, the event that set it off was a group of Australian soldiers actually coming to the aid of an American soldier who was being assaulted by the US military police. A mutual act of comradely distain for the MPs spiralling into a city wide riot between Aussie diggers and American GI’s.
Mob rule gets out of hand so quickly. US MP vs Australians very quickly became US vs AUS because it wasn't attacking the MPs but Americans and then it spirals. I do wonder how the Stein felt. Must've been weird to get helped by the mob and then be a target by the mob a while later.
@@midgetwars1 it was an african american soldier being helped by the Australians. this presentation was very watered down for the modern American viewer, maybe this guy felt the average millennial American wouldnt be able to deal with the events that took place.
@@jaybruz.5688 Why wouldn't the modern American millennial be able to handle that the past Americans were racist to the degree that allied forces had to step in? If anything, that'll be right up their alley.
"Overpaid and over here", as the phrase used to go from British troops at the sight of Americans in the UK. My granddad who was from Liverpool and served in WW2 (Royal Artillery, fighting in North Africa and up through southern Europe), always said that the difference between American and British pay was very telling. US lower ranks were paid more than their UK counterparts, but UK officers were paid a lot more than their US counterparts. The class system has always been alive and well in the UK. Edit: To everyone who repeatedly keeps replying to this message to tell me that I'd missed out the "over dressed" or "over sexed" parts of that quote, please bear in mind that it was my granddad talking to 11 year old me. Talking about pay was one thing as he could explain it in terms of pocket money. I think he left out the over sexed and over dressed parts as he just didn't feel like having the conversation and explaining those to young me, and I certainly don't blame him.
I think the saying was that the Americans were Oversexed , Overpaid and Over here. While The GIs would respond that the Brits were Undersexed, Underpaid and Under Eisenhower
@@okancanarslan3730 Any Briton claiming their society is not riddled with classism is lying. And any American who claims that the USA isn't racist is lying. Neither has anything to be proud of.
That said, there is something about the Brisbane story that is very Australian. To reiterate, a group of drunk Australians was harassing a drunk GI, a group of American MPs came and started to arrest the drunk soldier for his misconduct, the Australians that had been heckling the drunk soldier then got angry at the police and began harassing them, one ambitious Aussie tried to take one of the MPs shotguns out of his hands and got shot dead in the process, and the Australians spread a general anti-American panic that involved attacking anonymous American servicemen in the street. It's hard to picture that unfolding the same way in Essex.
. Im not avid follower of wartime history and as a young Brit even i knew the racism and foul attitude of white American soldiers based in the U.K. during WW2. It’s scandalous to think it should go untaught and be forgotten about in school curriculum.
These thing did not just happen just to the allied side, the germans and their allies had similar clashes as well. While working on the local museum I read a story from a MP who witnessed a very serious fight between finnish soldiers on leave and the german marching column in the town. It got so bad at one point that the german soldiers had their rifles out with bayonettes attached. Luckily the MPs where able to solve the situation withouth any deaths. The reason for the hostility was probably the same as the british and australians vs americans. Germans had better pay and they got more food and luxury items that they gave out to civilians as gifts or payment for work rendered. In the same book there was recollection how young boys in the town loved running errants for germans as they paid with food and candies, the food was especially welcomed by the families of the children as they usually got enough to feed the whole family.
@@lycaonpictus9662 at least those interactions remains civil for the most part... the Romanian and Hungarian relationship on the Easter Front was nearly warlike (supposedly) and the only way to keep all out war from erupting was to put Italians forces in between them. It was however an understandable situation given both ancient and recent history between them.
@@lycaonpictus9662 The Germans were condescending since they were better equipped and better trained that the Romanians. It was clearly not the Romanians fault that their government joined the Axis in war.
My grandfather was there during the "Battle of Brisbane"! He was effectively an adjutant in the Navy or some kind of staff officer/liaison officer between the Navy and Army and was tasked by MacArthur's office to deal with the issues described in the episode between American and Australian soldiers. He described having to pull soldiers and other M.P.s off of each by their collars personally, received a nasty gash across the stomach by a local with a knife during a brawl, and the constant pervasive racism. My grandfather was full blooded Muscogee (Creek) and had very very dark skin. He was intentionally chosen to attempt to mediate segregation disputes for a time. This ended when he had to have a white officer, who was of a lower rank than my grandfather at the time, arrested for continuing to threaten and abuse the black soldiers working in the logistics pool. This officer could not believe that a non-white man could hold a higher rank than him and went all the way up the chain of command in attempt to charge my grandfather with impersonating an officer. Despite being totally in the right, and his work in helping quell the Australian riots eventually landing him a job physically in MacArthur's office as the war went on, the charge of "improper dress" as it was called later stayed on his record for the rest of his military career while the white officer received no punishment. He stayed in the military until the late 1950s, and his experiences in Japan and the rest of East Asia greatly influenced his love of language and culture. This is why I eventually went on to learn Japanese and Chinese myself, studying history in college. Also, he witnessed some of the trial of Eddie Leonski, a US soldier and serial killer who killed several Australian women, further inflaming tensions. The mess of the situation and his trial is said to be one of the catalyists for the creation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). There's a great movie called Death of a Soldier that stars Reb Brown in his only good movie and James Coburn that covers this and it includes the mythical train car gun battle also mentioned in this episode. I highly recommend it.
Interesting, thanks for sharing your grandfather's story. How some U.S. military personnel were treated back then based on their skill color is disgraceful.
I remember that film. If it was accurate in it's portrayal of Leonski. I recall the man had a psychological problem that manifested itself under the influence of Alcohol. In a normal World, it would have been enough to get him off and placed in an Asylum. But to quench Australian demands for Justice, he was pretty much sacrificed to keep the Peace.
@@Goatboysminion Yet, as is clear in the video, it was very, very rare for US servicemen to face any charges in these cases, and the lack of any communication about what happened to the US servicemen just added fuel to the fire. And the same "Hands off" attitude to US servicemen as persisted into the present. It is still common for US military personnel serving overseas to behave with almost total impunity. I's not that long ago since US personnel were still regularly serving in the UK, and I clearly remember ow impressively rude they could be while supposedly representing their country.
The same tensions had been experienced in WW1 although not just with Americans. The base pay of British Army privates in line infantry regiments was one shilling. But privates in the Australian, Canadian and Guards regiments received five shillings, as did specialists like the Royal Engineers. American troops in WW1 were also better paid than British. British soldiers often referred to better-paid "colonials" or British Guards or specialist troops as the "f^^^ing five-bobbers" (a "bob" is a shilling). A soldier in the Essex Regiment remembered a rhyme, "God made the world, bees make honey. The Essex do the work, the REs get the money." (REs is Royal Engineers.)
@@algared6131 Not just better dressed, but many Australians were taller, fitter & healthier from their general upbringing than the average British soldier from the cities.
I remember during WWI general Pershing complaining to the French military high command that French soldiers were giving cartoons and newspapers to US black soldiers where they could read and see black/white couples.
@@algared6131 Australia was about the richest country before WWI and had the best paid soldiers in that War . But Australia had a very hard Depression and in WWII her soldiers were paid significantly less than the Americans
Australia had no conscription in WW1, having rejected it twice at national referendums, and it's armed forced remained all-volunteer for the duration of the war. The "6 bob a day" minimum pay was slightly below the minimum wage in Australia in 1914, leading to the the Australian expression " 6 bob a day tourist" early in the war before the casualty figures started coming in.
Thank you for doing this episode Indy, as someone who has lived in Brisbane and studied the battle of Brisbane I loved this episode. The local story about the fight was that the Australian Soldiers were heckling the American for not being able to hold his liquor then when the MP came they heckled him for not giving the Yank a break. It escalated into the battle of Brisbane. Again thank you for this episode, glad I stayed up for it.
from memory the story i heard was they were heckling the drunk yank, who gave it back as good as he got. An American MP came up and demanded to see his leave pass and became frustrated at the time the drunk soldier took to find it in his many pockets. As soon as it was produced the MP snatched it and claimed he did not have one and thus was being arrested. The AUssies then started abusing the MP who then raised his club to strike one of the Aussies for daring to question his authority..........so the Aussies jumped the bastard and it was on for young and old!
@@RedtailFox1 Sounds really Australian. Australian soldiers to American soldier: insults. American soldier to Australian soldiers: insults. American MP to American soldier: NO PASS FOR YOU. Australian soldiers to American MP: Nah mate we were just having a friendly discussion.
I knew of this story from my late grandfather as the Australian Soldier who was killed in the battle of Brisbane was my great uncle. But it's good to see Indy tell the story.
I'm a Brisbane boy and both my grandfather's were in WW2. Everything said is true, I'll tell you two stories. 1. My grandfather was an infantry soldier who had recently returned from combat in New Guinea. They were given a free movie ticket. The unit turned up at the theatre and it was the movie 'Bambi'! They reluctantly went in. In the theatre it was full of US troops and many on dates with Australian girlfriends. In the movie there is a scene where Bambi says something like 'where is my mother?'. At that point an Australian soldier stood up and shouted 'She's out with a bloody YANK!'. A brawl then erupted. 2. I was told that the US MPs were shocked by the Australians behavior. They used to have saying to the effect that: 'In America if you want to stop a riot you pull out a gun, in Australia if you want start a riot you pull out a gun!'
I heard a story from some older family of a rural pub near a US base that served both white and black American soldiers. The white soldiers demanded the pub be segregated and so the landlord put up a sign saying it was. However the local patrons and staff put coal dust on their faces and welcomed the black soldiers in while not allowing the white soldiers entry because it was segregated. Not entirely sure how true it is but it shows the differing attitudes towards race the two countries had.
Funny how things work out. It used to be that conservative whites wanted segregation to force black people to stay away from whites. Nowadays it's liberal whites who want segregation to force white people away from everyone in order to "protect" minorities.
@@maskedbadass6802 Twisted view that you have there. But nothing that any reasonable person can say to you would change an unthinking person like yourself.
@@nparsona The only thing that's "twisted" is you writing as though that is how I want it to be. It's simply an observation of what is and there is literally no reason to be offended unless you simply misunderstand, or perhaps identify with a specific group and are so in denial of reality that you can't even agree with a comment that criticizes both sides.
My grandfather was a police sergeant seconded to the Belfast harbour police when the yanks arrived. The white G.I.s would attack black American servicemen and my grandfather and his men would intervene, batons ready to inflict a “touch of the timber” as he put it. The black guys would stand back and watch as the tough Irish police “put manners” into the assailants. However, when English and French Canadians fought they learned to leave them to it as they would invariably join together and turn on the police.
Not enough manners straighten by your grandfather. Why should we fight each other when you literally are going soon to a battlefield where you all have to fight side by side?
“Tough Irish Police” in Belfast? That would mean the RUC. These Tough Irish Police would more likely identify as British, serving a “Protestant government for a Protestant people”. The biggest propaganda weapon of recruitment into the IRA. Catholic’s (identifying mostly Irish) being at the receiving end of the same brutality before snd up to the reforms in the 80 & 90’s. One South African dude said to me “in Sout Ifrica, we cannot understand why in Northern Ireland one white man wants to kill another white man.”
@@Dubcel1 Harbour bulkies not RUC. Belfast Harbour Police. My grandfather was Irish as were the others. He was RUC, transferred to the “Bulkies” . He never held a passport so the modern concept of nationality does not apply. He and his wife were catholic and Gaelic speakers from Southern Ireland. He never voted and had nothing but contempt for politicians. He had a sense of fair play and always supported and defended the underdog, hence his disgust at the racism he witnessed. You have never met these people. Your opinion is based on later sad events in Belfast. What you think was likely was not how it was. Wind your neck in!
@@Dubcel1 My mothers family were Northern Irish Catholics (they've all since left). Her father, my grandfather, fought in the British Army during WW2. He likely enlisted not long after it started as he was at Dunkirk and finished the war as a sergeant in an armoured unit. I think the situation was a bit more complicated at the time than Protestant/Unionist vs Catholic/Republican.
In NZ there is the battle of Manners St, a very long brawl started when US troops tried to tell NZ Maori personnel they weren't allowed in the bar. Next minute it's full on through the streets of Wellington.
@@keptinkaos6384 Pakeha servicemen sided with their Maori bros too - there were at least three more such riots. Details are sparse on the incidents because of strict censorship, but at least two GIs or MPs were killed.
@@onylra6265 hi, you got any additional info on the GI deaths? Also know of a few crimes committed by GIs against civilians that were hushed up too during the war. On the scale, incredibly small numbers so not dissing those servicemen. Still a lot of structures around the place in Wellington built by the US forces. Years back my family had a lock up in the old hospital at Silverstream built during the war. Don Adams (Get Smart) convalesced there
The saying went, “Overpaid, oversexed and over here”. There was even a serial killer among the American troops in Melbourne, a Private Eddie Leonski, who was arrested, tried and hanged in 1942.
I have heard a story true or not, that a white woman in brisbane was supposedly raped by a black us soldier. Because in the words of some they all looked the same, they hanged 6 poor black guys.
Incidents like the one covered in the video weren't even necessarily contained to situations where troops were deployed to other nations. You also had the infamous Zoot Suit Riots in the Los Angeles, and there was a riot in Philadelphia where a brawl between sailors & marines escalated until it had hundreds of participants.
You know, talking about wages, it would be great if you guys can tell how soldiers getting paid in ww2, and how they send their payment to their family and and how much is their wages comparable to the price in their homeland
or even more interesting, what money was good for? in Germany for example, you coud not buy much with your money... Food is rationed, and luxury goods dont come handy in 1944..
@@TheCurlsCrazy You could buy food at the time. There's always some food available on the black market. The problem was in not having enough money. Which was why there was a lot of barter, crime and prostitution going on.
The thing with American troops was was that not only were they better paid, which allowed them to spend more money then the locals in the UK or Oz, as this episode showed they had better access to luxury goods not available to the locals anymore. US Logistics was and is a well oiled machine that is able to ship insane amounts of goods to the troops that no other country can match. Stuff that other countries don't even deem necessary. What does a GI need with stockings? So more money then the locals and goods that they can barter. Like with any system where a lot of additional money and goods get introduced in a short amount of time some form of inflation happens which causes trouble for the locals.
In New Zealand we had the Battle of Manners Street in our Capital City, Wellington. Some southern US soldiers objected to some Kiwi Soldiers (Combat veterans of the Maori Battalion) and were taught in short order not to mess about like that. Fortunately nobody was killed, but US medics were "rather busy" for a few days. The Maori soldiers returned to the bar and finished their beers
Bad mistake by those yanks, serve them right 😂 Maori’s and New Zealanders generally are great people, I’d hate to face them in battle though, thankfully I’m an Aussie so we are normally on the same side 😃 we won’t mention Rugby though 🤦♂️
You hinted at The Battle of Bamber Bridge (near Preston and Southport in Lancashire, UK) and it is well worth reading up on - when the local US base tried to enforce segregation on the town the local landlords and shop keepers put up signs saying "Blacks Only" - alas tension did reach breaking point and while there are multiple versions of the story, the core agreed upon part is the locals and British servicemen supported and defended the coloured US troops, but later on there was one sided violence between white US GIs and US coloured soldiers resulting in a number of the latter being shot with at least one being killed.
My father was involved in the battle of Brisbane, fair bloody dinkum he said that it was the only battle in WWII that he had fun in. My father was a services boxing champion. He said that he threw one American into the Brisbane River.
The US saved the Pacific from Japan! Without Admiral Nimitz, whose Grandfather was of big influence on young Nimitz, the entire war would have taken a different outcome.
Yes, but british soldiers was even lower paid than australian soldiers in ww2. And as a result of that was many conflicts. So Austalia and more Britain get many warbrides who get american husbands and move to America after ww2.😍🙃😂🙃
Works both ways, pal. Never heard a single kind word about the Brits and that looking down their noses attitude. Even Churchill admitted that "The British Army is not quite up to the task," and said they'd be speaking German or Russian but for the Americans. Betcha didn't know that Churchill thought so poorly of his Army. He tried to avoid direct encounters with the Germans. Actually, returning GIs spoke very favorably about the Germans and the Australians, but not the back-stabbing elitist Brits. A general order forbidding Americans from helping the Germans was issued and completely ignored.
@@billythedog-309 Dixies do, Yanks (usually) don't. If they're from the south and proudly look at the traitors to the Union, they're a Dixie. The main exception to this is those from West Virginia, as it was Pro-union pro-slavery.
@@somewhereelse1235 "Pride of the South" Robby Lee was an emancipationist, 'hearth and home' for a Dixie boy you think the fellas without shoes can afford or want to buy a man in chains? You see here it was the Northern *Yanks* treatin' the West Indians and their own resident Afro-Americans with contempt. Individuals, generalisations mean nothing, I bet it was only a few Yanks really but those incidents were so high profile that it sticks in the newspapers, the minds of those who lived at the time and now, and in the history books. Makes it look bigger than it is or was. Like the Boston "massacre" where a crowd of rioters forced a squad of soldiers to open fire and only two soldiers actually aimed at the crowd, the rest fired in the air. To this day it is remembered as government tyranny and as a massacre which to me sounds like hundreds dead and soldiers marching through the streets death squad style on the orders of King Georgy. The newspapers like to cause a fuss and theres always drunk and sober rabble rousers looking to cause trouble. Simple as. I bet when these Americans came over, most got along with us and the few hell raisin' asshats ruined it for everybody else giving everyone a shit name. As always. And that "Dixies do" what all of them? Every single one? Same for "all of us"? is it "all as one"? come on mate. Some were fighting against centralised government, "States Rights" like Thomas Jefferson and his buddies said. I bet most Yanks weren't over dressed over sexed and overpaid I bet most Dixies weren't overt racists and slavers because there were tens of thousands of freed slaves in most southern state *capitol cities* let alone every other city among 11+ States. I bet most Brits didnt look down their noses at "colonials" because we arent all aristocratic lords of the feckin manor, John McGuirk, we aint the stereotype your 'associated press' has labelled us as. People love a bit of drama though don't they? That's the problem.
Facts are stubborn things. Thanks for covering this topic. I was a US Service Man stationed in Japan in the mid 1990's and again in the early 2000's. Believe it or not, we had briefings on how not to embarrass our counterparts in the Japanese Defense Forces by over spending in the bars, etc. One also had to be carful with gifting.... a bottle of whiskey that cost very little at the base exchange could cost the equivalent several weeks pay for our counter parts..... alcohol is heavily taxed in Japan and we paid no taxes on base....
As an American, I feel such shame and the appalling behavior exhibited by US Troops in Commonwealth nations. What an embarrassment. Certainly the racial violence is the most shameful of all.
So no-one is asking the question "why the racial violence?" A number of books have been written about this and it boils down to angry black soldiers who munitied frequently either because of behavioral issues or perceived mistreatment. Having said that, I do believe that the Civil Rights Act did do some good work in mitigating the main problem.
With Jim Crow laws still very much alive and well in the US, de jure racism was alive and well, and that carried over into the ranks of the armed forces. While there were cases of Black resistance among the troops, the White military authorities often did treat them as lesser peoples despite wearing the same uniforms. Having all this shown front and center to allied populations was a major embarrassment for the US.
@@christianfreedom-seeker2025 Lame, lame, lame excuse that would convince many on your side of the Atlantic but is fooling no one in more educated countries. Makes you look ridiculous. Segregation was no 'perceived mistreatment' it was a fact of American life. White Australians, New Zealanders, British soldiers, and civilians witnessed it in action in their countries and took the side (rightly) of the Black GIs. In New Zealand, the rioting (in which the Americans got hammered) had nothing to do with Black Americans but the local Maori population and started when the Americans wanted them to be served in a woodshed instead of in their own pub. The Yanks duly got their a*ses served to them with the help of local white New Zealanders. And furthermore, the Civil Rights Act wasn't until 1964 more than 20 years later, duh! Back to the drawing board, buddy, try again.
I find it ironic that the heavy handed cop was named O'Sullivan. My father served in the R.A.N during the War. He often said the worst of the American MP and SP, were the Irish ones.
My father was part of an US Marine aviation crew. He was allowed to visit Australia in 1943. He had nothing but praise for the country and the people. I think most Americans and Australians got along.
Thats true. These incidents were big, but isolated, and while Indy doesn't mention it, they sound like a massive failure of leadership on both sides to maintain discipline. I imagine most conflicts were resolved before they escalated
@@mrsnrub282 I wouldn't say they were isolated. In Brisbane alone on average there were 20 brawls a night between Australians and Americans. Doesn't include other Australian cities.
I remember reading a reminiscence in a collection called "Six War Years" by Canadian author Barry Broadfoot. A Canadian Provost Corps member was sent to a fistfight on a Liverpool dock between Canadians Soldiers and USN personnel. When he arrived on scene with other Provost's they saw the fight and quickly figured out it was Canadian and American Soldiers fighting Canadian and American Sailors.
My father was in the U.S. Navy during WWII. He remembered his ship having problems getting the stores they needed moved from a warehouse to the dock by the Australian stevadores. This was in Brisbane too. The stores could only be moved by the stevadores. The day they were supposed to move the stuff, nothing showed up. Halfway through the second day, the captain started making inquiries. Nothing happened. Complaints didn't do anything. But when the harbor master found out, trucks started rolling pronto. Still, at 5PM, the trucks stopped coming. That was when the stevadores knocked off for the day. The rest of their stores were delivered the next day. After that, they never replenished in Australia again.
@@ianscolari5916 With 30 minute breaks every two hours and working at a snail's pace. Their ship was just there to replenish ship's stores and refuel. Not a month before the crew had had liberty in Noumea, French New Caledonia, and they were supposed to do a quick turnaround, so no one other than a few officers got to visit Brisbane.
In Darwin my father and his mates in the 2/15th Battalion did the job themselves. They worked with their rifles on their backs, and heaven help any waterside worker who tried to stop them.
My Great Granddad had a pub in East Anglia during the war. A group of G.I.s refused to drink with the empire troops (who were "quite a good laugh") and demanded they be put in the woodshed instead. Family legend goes that Great Granddad told them to "Fuck off back to Germany". Moral was always "Never tell the landlord how to run their pub".
Ah the English, I love how if we dont like someone we dont just say go away, nah mate its "fook off" hahahaha, I was thinking if I were there back then pulling pints and a yank comes in pushing the African/Indian gentleman out the way and demanding to be served first when he came in last, - edit: id ask him to wait his turn but fail that - I would stick two fingers up at him and tell him to "fook off back home". Get 'im by scruff of the collar if he continues causing a fuss like, yknow? Damn Yanks, now if some Dixie boy walks in it may be a different story, if theyre one of them southern gentlemen with a bit of cowboy like respect that is, yknow down to earth country boys. But the Yankee city slicks are arrogant, not nowadays I mean back during the war, some really were Over dressed over sexed and overpaid... worse of all, they were over 'ere mayte. I hope the gooduns outnumbered the trouble raisers for reputation's sake, but they should know better coming to the homelands and seeing citizens from all over the Empire, and treatin' em as men and women not them and us.
@@airraverstaz For a span after the civil war they military was to a degree not segregated. It was Woodrow Wilson - that paragon of progressivism - that re-segregated the military by executive order as the US joined the Great War. It remained that way until Truman - perhaps the most outstanding thing he did. I agree though - the US military has done an outstanding job - equal to any I would venture.
I've briefly heard about this, but it was great to hear a more detailed description of events. I live in Brisbane and I was literally on Edward St in the city yesterday. It's crazy to imagine it being covered in brawling soldiers!
I'd not heard of this until I started work in Brisbane. For many years, I worked in the building that now stands where the battle first broke out. It's certainly changed a lot since then, but it always gave me a sense of being connected to history, just by being there.
Holy moley! I never knew about the fights between the US and Aussie troops! Definitely not something that was taught in high school or even college! I remember the HBO series on the Pacific War and I don’t recall anything even close to issues like this. And sad that the Australian gov’t had to bend to American idiocy about segregation. Though I would have loved to have seen the looks of the GIs when white Aussies fought alongside black troops against them.
The TV series The Pacific was mostly based on two books written by veterans, With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa by E.B. Sledge and Helmet for my Pillow by Robert Leckie, along with some extra bits about Medal of Honor recipient John Basilone. He was in a different unit than either Sledge or Leckie, so he doesn't appear in either book. Sledge never went to Australia so the sections dealing with Australia in the series were adapted entirely from Leckie's book, which has a whole chapter dedicated to it that is titled The Great Debauch. There were a lot of Americans in Australia and not all in the same place, so Leckie wasn't involved in the Battle of Brisbane. He was in Melbourne. The troops in Brisbane were all U.S. Army I believe, while Leckie was a Marine. There were some brawls between troops of the U.S. 1st Marine Division & the 9th Australian Division in Melbourne, but all barroom stuff and nothing like the madness covered in this video, and that was apparently settled by a joint beer party between the two divisions. Later in the war it was also reported that troops of the 1st Marine Division sent more mail to Melbourne than they did the United States, mainly of course to Australian girlfriends or wives.
@@stevenobrien557 No I did not sir, but what does that have to do with simon’s lecture on white Australians fighting with Black GIs against White GIs? If he’s wrong, there’s nothing stopping you from telling him.
"The Pacific" managed to write the Australian and American armies completely out of the war in the SW Pacific. Australian civilians kept thanking the Marines because all their boys were supposedly over in North Africa which was not true, they were up in New Guinea.
The event in Lancashire Indy hints at is the famous Battle of Bamber Bridge (a small town in ventral lancashire). It started after Americans complained about black soldiers being allowed in the same pubs as white soldiers, with the locals joining in on the side of the black soldiers. Not many historic events happened in Bamber Bridge (I know I grew up near there) but I feel this is a historical anecdote to be proud of
The First Marine Division on R&R in Melbourne after Guadalcanal managed to defuse the situation there. There began to be brawls between the Marines and Australian servicemen on leave, so a Marine officer suggested a solution; the Marines invited all the Australian servicemen to a party at the cricket ground with free beer, but served in paper cups and no MPs, the party was a big success and improved relations. Surviving Marines always spoke highly of their welcome in Australia and of the Australians.
Theres a great Training video for the American Army called A Welcome to Britain which you can also find here on UA-cam, where Burgess Meredith explains to the American soldiers all the potential conflicts which could arise from the different views. I highly recommend you to watch it, because apart from being a great source it is also a great piece of Film.
Is that the one where the white American officer breaks the fourth wall and tells the (American) viewers that they shouldn't be surprised to see black people treated as normal people in Britain?
I was just about to recommend people watch that video here on UA-cam as well. It really is a great piece of teaching differences between people throughout history. The US has actually done videos and programs like that for all countries US troops have been sent to over the decades.
The American officers showed wholehearted disrespect to Australian officers as well. Eventually, Mccarthur had to separate the commands. I'm American and I love our friends down under. I found it appalling that the American brass treated the Aussies like they had no idea of how to fight. If ever I wanted an ally in a fight, I'd pick Australia.
That he was, if he’d had the balls to show up in front of the Australian troops under his command his race to the Whitehouse would have ended then and there. M
The Battle of Bamber Bridge was sorta near where I live. As I recall, there are pubs which still have bullet marks in the brickwork. It was surprising to me that I hadn't heard of this fight till recently. That's wartime censorship for you!
I’m from Liverpool originally and only just heard of the battle of bamber bridge a month or so ago through a Facebook post - the Liverpool stories here surprised me too
I'm originally from Southport, not far away and it have known about it for a fair while, but it seems to be treated as a side note, nothing more (which really is all it was). Still I love the fact that when the nearby US base insisted on segregation for all it's troops the locals responded by putting up 'Blacks Only' notices in the windows of the shops and pubs.
Don't forget the even earlier clash between the US Marines and their primary enemy (at the time), the dockworkers union in New Zealand. The Marines eventually had to clear the docks of civilians and load/reload their ships on their own, mostly by hand.
@@tomasinacovell4293 the US Marines 1st division arrived in Wellington, NZ (IIRC) in mid-1942 with ships loaded for an administrative move. The dock workers were, essentially, "working to rule" as though it was still peace time. They took their precise break and shift times, exercised their authority to refuse to work in inclement weather (I assume their contract allowed that), and were sporadically available for their shifts, frequently working weekends at double their pay rate but not at all during the week. The marines wound up unloading and reloading (combat loading, so toilet paper isn't blocking access to ammunition) their ships in Wellington in July so they could invade Guadalcanal in early August.
Loading and unloading problems happened at ports in Australia too. Fights broke out between Australian longshoremen and U.S. Navy sailors when the Americans tried to move freight and stores on their own.
Ah this one. Reminds me of the bar scene in the 2010 miniseries The Pacific when John Basilone almost fought with other Allied military personnel while in Australia...
These days it's the Australian military that's considered a higher paid army. In the deployments that I went on in Iraq and Afghanistan we would always get a briefing that specifically stated we should never get into conversations about pay. I did get asked once and I just honestly told the Us soldier but then I added "but that's in Australian Dollars, so you gotta take into account the exchange rate which pretty much means we get the same". One might believe that this topic became taboo because of the events in history.
The tensions created behind the scenes in American cities due to the influx of women, African Americans, and Mexican workers under the Bracero Program for war work needs to be a Homefront program of its own. Especially the 1943 Detroit race riot. We already skipped the 1942 incident which wasn’t war related per se, but 1943’s was.
My dad was stationed at Holloman AFB in New Mexico during the Vietnam War about a hundred miles north of El Paso. They used to drive down to Juarez, Mexico to go drinking. He used to joke that his idea of international conflict was a bar fight in Juarez. But often it was with Army guys from Fort Bliss.
Generally brawls of Marines vs Navy in any bar where the fleet stops over are... well... not unheard of... but shotguns are a next level (figures MPs...)
A strange situation. American troops in the Midlands were billeted in English homes. My grandmother lived in a three story town terrace house. She took in a Negro Army Captain, named Leroy (I am named after him). English people simply saw him as a US soldier and did not register the fact that he was different, they were just so dam glad after 2 ½ years of being on our own, that he came to help.
Great episode. My mum was watching and can recount such incidents, even in Birmingham and near by towns. But as stated a lot were surpressed by the censor.
There was a similar incident further north in Townsville, Queensland. My Dad told me once that Aussie troops were on leave after fighting the Japanese in New Guinea. They noted the few hotels crowded with Americans & tried to force entry. My father was on base when word came through of a disturbance in town. They were issued with batons and trucked to where the fighting was. Upon seeing their own fighting Americans, they threw away their batons and joined in. At some point my Dad punched an American in the mouth, cutting his fist on teeth. He suspects he hit rotten teeth because within a short time his hand became badly infected to the point he couldn't use it for several weeks. During that time he received occupational therapy in the form of furniture upholstering....a skill which served him well after the war!
Human teeth are filthy, the worst of the Animal Kingdom. Go to the hospital for a human bite and they will want to see you every day for 2 weeks. A dog bite, they just clean and sew up and off you go.
My uncle was run down by a US truck in Townsville during the war, was in a coma for three weeks and lucky to survive at the time. Made a full recovery and lived to be 96.
@@montecarlo1651 In all fairness I must also mention this: Dad was on a motorcycle as part of an AIF artillery unit convoy. At some point, an American convoy inserted itself among the Aussies which wasn't a problem until it turned off to a different destination. The rear part of the Aussie unit were none the wiser & just followed the Yanks. When the AIF officer realised they were missing the back part of the convoy, he sent Dad to go looking for them. He was at high speed on the sealed road but hit gravel, dodged 2 potholes but couldn't avoid the 3rd. Next thing he remembered was waking up being attended by 2 US nurses who found him unconscious on the roadside!
A lot of yanks got killed or wounded during their time here, don’t come to a country trying to throw your weight around if you can’t back it up. The yanks learned this.
What the hell are soldiers off duty suppose to do,knowing this could be the last chance to drink,gamble,screw and fight - this is hardly an American trait
My Grandfather who was in the Australian Army told me of this story many years ago. He was involved in the brawl occurring around what is now the Southbank Train station. He said the biggest driver was the polished American uniform and the medals given to the yanks for doing nothing (his words) With contempt he would say that Yanks would get a medal for passing basic training or learning how to shoot straight. They even get a medal for being shot by the enemy. On the other hand, Australian military were very reserved in giving out gongs and we looked like poor second cousins of the great US fighting force. Of course, the local girls would think the Americans were war heros with a chest full of metal and brave men and be drawn to them accordingly. Great to see this story being preserved. I had not seen any mention of it in literature ad enjoyed the retelling
Brisbane is my home town. Nice to see a video mentioning our city. I used to be a nightclub bouncer in Brisbane and on a rare occasion I was working when US serviceman were out on the town in uniform. I remember telling them to behave themselves or we would call the MPs. They were pretty co-operative and friendly. We didn't have a single fight that night.
I remember reading or hearing this funny quote someone once said about this very incident, stating; "In the US, the displaying of batons and firearms in the hands of police and security is an effective way of quelling a riot, while in Australia, it's an effective way of starting one"
My Grandma said she was going to find a tall , strong, handsome Yank . The first one she saw was a tall Sargent walking down a Melbourne street , my granddad
I lived for many years two doors down from a US marine from Alabama who came to Melbourne in 1943 after Guadalcanal, married a local girl and had a family. He was in the Korean War too. They lived for a long time in Japan and the US as well as in Melb.
My grandmother, a Melburnian, remembered walking home with a girlfriend one evening after work and hearing two Americans behind her, one saying "I'll have the goil wit da coils". Always made me laugh how she remembered his NJ accent. (She was married at the time so the GI lucked out.)
I was in the Royal Navy, we paid a visit to Puerto Rico , I was told to be on shore patrol, ships policeman , to ensure our lads got into no trouble. We had around six of us, we were issued with pick axe handles, but frankly we were loathed to use them on our shipmates. We arrived at this American sort servicemen club. The American Officer in their Naval Police was tooled up with night stick and a weapon, his men had big night sticks. When he saw us our motley crew , he said geeze how you guys going to stop a fight. Our Petty Officer in charge said dead easy , you have a huge night stick, what if a Jack gets that from you? He might hit you with your own night stick, and that will bloody well badly. With us we do it the British Way, fight starts, so we stand round the corner, until the fight starts going down, all the venom has gone, then in we go , we won’t have any trouble, none what so ever, and this man pointing to my oppo, said he is the money man. The American Officer said what is the money man for god sake, does he takes bribes not to arrested, our Petty Officer god no way, right there we are sorting out the fight, he is going around the floor looking for change money that has rolled out in the fight, then we have a share out of the money between us. Easy way of living. The American Officer mouth was wide open, then he broke into laughter, saying you Brits have it all worked out, I like it like it a lot, we will do it the British way. But no trouble broke out. But it shows how carefully we view our shipmates. If we went in boots handles, they would get us at some time on board.
My mother was English. My father an American soldier. They married in 1942. The common phrase I heard from my English relatives about Americans in England. "They were overpaid, over sexed and over here!" (g)
When I was in Australia in 1997, we were repeatedly reminded that items purchasable from the US exchange trailer we had were NOT for resale or gifting to non-Americans. Like anyone paid attention to it....
I live in Brisbane. Thank you for the detail of the stories . Just a predictable hiccup in a very consistent alliance. Alot of our outback farmworkers and " cowboys " worked very closely and well with the " Yanks " and many cowboys even on the battle fields of France in World war one . There was affinity there .
This was one of the only stories my grandfather told me about his service in WW2. He was a Signaller and in November '42 had been a soldier for less than a year after signing up at Flemington Racecourse in Melbourne after his 18th birthday.
1943 doesn't just see issues in Lancashire, there's also the Battle of Manners Street in Wellington, New Zealand/Aotearoa. Apparently sparked by racism when the USA soldiers didn't want Maori to come into the club. I'm guessing telling them they couldn't come into a place in their own country wasn't taken too well. Similar events to Brisbane ensue, Pakeha & Maori soldiers brawl with the US soldiers, and other NZ citizenry join in as well. There were a few other incidents throughout the war, including another in '43 where the Americans fought local Maori, all the way through to yet another fracas in Wellington in mid '45.
i woulda paid to see those fights. i know alot of maori in WA an they all pretty handy. i had a maori instructor on an engineering course, dole thing, an he was x NZ army and a security guard/bouncer as well. into martial arts of course. we would often ask him about his weekend or such an he would go straight to the bit where he had to beat somone up or toss em out. it wasnt just the telling though he would really get into it an his pupils would get really big an the veins on his neck would start pulsating, then as he's telling what he did his arms would jerk as he imagined hit'n or blocking somone. you didnt have to bring up anything that actually happened either, a "what if" situation would be good enough. he's a nice bloke with a set of principles firmly anchored, eg you couldnt say sorry for anything, he'd accuse you of not really being sorry an you shouldnt say it etc. good teacher an smart bloke.
Australian troops in the Vietnam War were also paid less than their US counterparts, which caused tension. On the other hand, the Australians were a relatively small force, fairly well regarded and they saw themselves as an elite, and viewed many American troops as anything but an elite.
The old story about Vietnam always was that, when it was time to camp for the night. The Australian way to do it was to eat dinner and then move a large distance to not be spotted. The American way was to shoot off a load of ammunition in a circle with the idea that "If there was anything alive out there it isn't now". Aussies loved this because it meant nobody knew where they were, but everyone knee where the Americans were.
@@chaosXP3RT The Americans asked Australians to come and help them learn how to fight in the jungle since at that time, it had become our main way of fighting. We showed up and then the Americans proceeded to ignore our advice and lose a war which they should have known how to win after watching Diem Bien Phu 😂
@@chaosXP3RT The Americans also constituted 95% of the non Vietnamese troops.... Australian presence was small, so when put into context of the number of troops the Australians actually had in country those troops actually did MORE fighting than American troops....
It was likely helped along by the VC who were airdropping leaflets to the Aussie soldiers telling us to go home because they had no beef with us and that they would rather fight Americans... When your opponent wants to choose his foe you know he's not going to be choosing the harder contest.
World War Two, can you please make more videos about battles between Free France and Vichy France in various parts of the French colonial empire. Thank you very much.
I used to deliver home appliances for a living. I remember setting up a TV for a customer and I saw that she had photos of her self and husband in uniform. She tells me that she used to be a nurse (he was a soldier). She then tells me about the battle of Brisbane. She was one of the nurses that patched up many of the Australian troops after the riots. Bloody amazing stuff.
Australia and New Zealand don't take that as an excuse. Especially since the American brawlers were attacking indigenous folkes for using their own nations ammenities.
@@PandoraKin564 Not makeing a excuse for it. Those dudes are assholes. Just saying a punch up is pretty normal in combat arms units. But useing weapons is a no go. Hell when we were visiting some of are Australian army buddies in Brisbane, had a dude yelled some very mean spirited stuff at us and tried to punch the shortest in are group. He was able dodge the blow, spun the guy around and put him one his ass. Good times.
This is what happens when Aussies decide to stick up for another nation's troops against those dreaded MPs. If everyone knew why it started, I'll bet the Yanks and Aussies would have been united
I think when the initial clash with the MP's began at the PX, there were some Americans who joined in for a chance to get back at the MP's. But once shots were fired, it became an all out U.S vs Aussie brawl.
I'm just surprised it continued onto the next night. SURELY somebody should've asked, "why are we doing this", "oh the we're helping the American". or alternatively, "Oh, the Australians were helping us?!" WTF was Stein doing, spread the good word dude.
We forget what a different world the past can be. My father did convey escort duty in the Atlantic. with rare exception the US Navy and Coast Guard would only assign blacks to be steward’s mates (we’d all drown together my dad used to quip). The cook on his ship actually threatened him with a knife for wondering why you would hate someone because of the color of his skin Later when the war was over and scratch crews were moving ships back to base, dad got to serve with one of the few black men who wasn’t a steward. The man was from Detroit refused to get off the ship for leave in Charleston. Sad commentary
The world actually seems completely unchanged too. American MPs shooting both black and white soldiers for minor infractions, both Americans and Australians (over whom they'd have had zero jurisdiction, right?) Compare that to the debate about police violence and BLM raging in the US today, and it seems like nothing has really changed in the last century....
@@MrNicoJac It has, mostly for the better. Issue these days is the speed and extent of media coverage can often make the situation appear far larger in scale than it actually is, especially if the media think it will get bums on seats watching their coverage. Not saying things are perfect mind, not by any stretch of the imagination, or that more could not be done, it could, but it IS better in most places than it was then.
Awesome and an unexpected nugget of history right here! My father was north of Brisbane in the Australian Army during WW2 and heard about the ruckus with train loads of soldiers heading to Brisbane from his area. Another big incident I read about was when a US National Guard unit sent to fight in the Pacific arrived in New Zealand. Their attitude to proud, strong, unbeaten Mauri was such that they had their heads cracked by those warriors in similar street incidents.
I think this special was really good. I appreciated how well it dealt with complicated issues and the amount of nuance which was displayed. Especially regarding the behaviour of Americans towards British West Indians, but not disregarding informal British racsim. Another top quality Time Ghost production!
Very good, I will say part of the tensions is Australia was that at the time US soldiers were seen as lazy. They hadn’t fought in Kokodak or North Africa. Many of the troops were green.
Let's be honest here, the battle was really between American MP's and Australians. They didn't respect Australian cultural norms at all, got aggressive with them, got shocked that Aussies aren't pushovers and then escalated from there. I would give a moral of the story, but we all know what it is.
When I was posted to an Infantry unit in Brisbane one of the US carriers docked for a few days. Earlier one Saturday night we'd seen some Shore Police getting narky on a few sailors and gave the pricks a mouthful. Later that night some Shore Police decided to walk into a club that was informally known as the '6 Brigade Boozer' to drag out a couple of drunk sailors. Needless to say, we detested this foreign concept of anyone pulling anybody out of a club for being drunk and took unbridge at their presence in our 'happy place' End result, we hid the handful of Americans in the place behind a phalanx of diggers at the bar and started pelting icecubes and beer at the Shore Patrol. I was slightly appalled by a handful of my fellow Australian Diggers throwing full glasses of Rum and Coke at the pricks. With those small 7oz mixed drink glasses with the heavy base, it's considered poor form not to quickly finish the drink before throwing the glass at someone. Anyhow, they turned tail and ran up the stairs and that was the last we ever saw of them that weekend. And then we resumed the normal routine for a Saturday night at this particular dive and started fighting each other because "my section/platoon/company/unit/corp is better than yours" Happy days...
US Soldiers: We're paid 60 US$ Astralian: You're making 60 US$ a month? I only get 42! UK: I'm only getting 21$! Free french: You guys are getting paid?
Given the disgraceful pay the French infantry was getting in 1939... if the pay rate had anything at all to do with the dedication of the average soldier, France definitely deserved to LOSE the war against Germany, that's for sure!
@@PraiseKéké The French government wasted an enormous amount of money on that white elephant the Maginot line, when they could have invested that money on better pay, training and equipment for their soldiers, so i am saying the French deserved to loose to the Germans and rightly so! And don't tell me its easy to say the Maginot line was a waste with hindsight, no, because the French government had good people telling them it was a waste of money AT THE TIME they decided to build it, but old men with ww1 mindset won the day and then lost the war, so, no excuses, they deserved to lose.
@@mystikmind2005 The Maginot line worked lmao It was built to prevent a frontal assault in an industrially important region and drive the germans in Belgium, which it did. The issue was that Belgium went back on its cooperation with the allies and low cooperation between units. ANd the french professional army was well trained, the reserves weren't. The french didn't "deserve" to loose.
@@PraiseKéké You obviously do not understand military history all that well if you can say the Maginot like worked.... of course it 'worked', the issue is value for money, how well the Maginot line worked compared to if they had spent that money on better training salary and equipment for the army, and as such the Maginot line stands out as the dumbest military investment in all of history, regardless of what the Belgium's did or did not do. This plus having smart people telling them the Maginot line was a bad investment at the time, plus having a 100 year old man, no wait, 69 year old man stuck in ww1 thinking running the army, means in my book, the French deserved to lose.... or put it another way, the Germans deserved to win!
I go into MacArthur's old headquarters on Edward Street most days (it's called MacArthur Central now) and I had never heard this in 60 years of living in Brisbane. This channel is so great at the little details - well done. (Also, kudos on the pronunciation!)
Also Australian MP'S took off their Mp arm bands and joined in attacking American's. fights broke out in multiple Australian city's after they heard about this. Pretty sure was Australian's who comadeered a Army truck and got hold of Tommy guns and Grenades. Reporter who witnessed it from a balcony said was biggest fight he witnessed in whole of WW2 American soldiers were flying through the air. Other sotries say was over 5000 people involved, not 2000. Australian man and women too. Australin's were sick of General Macarthur not giving them credit in Battles when was Australian only wins he stated was Aliie's wins. Why Australian's still do not get the credit for being so important in victorie's in WW2.
Because MacArthur was running for President & wanted an American victory... the only problem was his troops where pathetic & the only successes occurring at the time were Australian ones
It is well known that you never pull a gun on an Aussie (which the US MPs nearly always did) as it doesn't intimidate him but makes him just that bit madder. This was one of the main causes between Aussies and the US MPs. There were many instances when there was a brawl between Aussies and Americans and when the MPs arrived both combined and turned on the MPs. The biggest problem was that the MPs couldn't understand the Aussie attitude to having a gun pulled on them, ie not being intimidated.
Pulling a weapon at a punch up is considered pretty bad etiquette in Australia back in the day. Turns what might have been a one on one confrontation into something else damn quick. Too many Americans were quick to pull knives or guns but it seems the U.S MP's were even more prone to doing so, inflaming the situation every time. Read a book about the incidents years back. "The Battle Of Brisbane" Peter A Thompson and Robert Macklin
Thanks Indy, interesting topic. My grandfather was a police officer during WW2, he was not allowed to join up due to him being both reserve occupation and having 2 brothers in the forces, 1 was a merchant seaman who died in the Atlantic, the other was a paratrooper lost at Arnhem. Grandad was based near a very important RAF base with a pub close by (surprise) one of those with no colour bar, but plenty of hooligans who could cause the odd problem, so when the USAAF moved in the trouble got right out of hand. One incident involved yank MP's getting stuck into RAF personnel, which as a sergeant he dealt with, when a yank MP thought he was tough, that was apparently hilarious, getting sparked out with 1 punch by a heavyweight boxer (guess who) cured him of that. We, his grandkids, have a lot of contacts abroad now, many in the west indies and across Africa because of him, he had many many friends who travelled from far away for his funeral, all because of his attitude towards racism, he truly hated it. So it makes you wonder, who was really behind these problems? Maybe a certain foreign power could have enjoyed causing a few internal problems for the Allies? Makes you think eh?
I knew a guy from the former Soviet union who'd been one of the first Russians into Da-Nang after the American withdrawl from Vietnam. He said that they were there so quickly, that the freezers in the PX were still cold - he remembers one colleague looking into one freezer, uttering in disbelief '20 flavours of ice cream.... how the fuck can you be expected to fight with 20 flavours of ice cream?' His own personal memory were the motorbikes, he said there were dozens still there, (looters had taken a few - but the majority were still there) and he was disappointed there were no Harleys, they were all Japanese & mainly mainly Honda's.
A little note about this whole thing from an American Sergeant Bill Benston who witnessed both nights of unrest in Brisbane said that he was amazed to witness Americans "Flying up in the air" during the brawling. But he added that afterwards; "But after that, it sort of settled down and you go into a pub and an Aussie would come and up and slap me on the back. "Oh, wasn't that a good ruckus we had the other night? And have a beer on me."
There is a brilliant video on UA-cam called "WW2 Training Film for US Soldiers | How to Behave in Britain | 1943" and at around the 25 minute mark they discuss racial tensions and how to behave in Britain.
Speaking as an Australian, its quite sad that we left the British empire as serfs/slaves to be dominated/ owned by the Americans instead. But such was the price of not being owned by Japan.
Australia is too large a country with too small of a population to do anything else. It's not really about Brits, Americans or the Japanese. Australia's geopolitics mean allying with a superior naval power is necessary to function as a country.
Basically, Australia's " tactic " in defense is too hold out and wait for allied support ( USA ) because our army, navy and airforce is too small, we simply rely on our allies to come save us from invasion, we can really only hold out for a short time, even nowadays. 80k strong defence force, but it's a lot smaller when it comes to, the fighting corps.
Great overview ... a few Artists at the time (notably Albert Tucker - 'Victory Girls' 1943) in Melbourne were painting the WW2 social political issues. US soldiers were constantly on the streets and in the pubs and hangouts of Melbourne during their war time break. They used to intrude and anger the local Australians and Tucker especially watched this happen and ended up producing many artworks based on how the society was changing for the worse....
It would be intresting to talk about a similar thing: the behavior of allied soldiers in the Middle East, notably how the Australian acted in Egypt when they were not fighting (on permission in the streets of Cairo) often without any regards for the locals
My mum showed me pictures from her Dads side of the family from when one of my relatives was in Egypt in WWI, a lot of interesting photos. There were ones of the camps with the Sphinx in the background. They used to use it’s nose as target practice, which is quite horrible, but I guess they didn’t really understand the history or anything behind it.
Thanks for making this. I haven't heard this much detail of the event. 15 years ago I made a doco about this for Queensland museum but it was swiftly ordered re-edited to remove the battle Of Brisbane as being irrelevant. Recently I uploaded the redited video to UA-cam but again it was auto set to private. The story is told here but it is always a different version.
Mate, my uncle told me about his experience after returning from the Middle East (he was a Rat of Tobruk). Apparently, some Americans ran into trouble in Melbourne with the returned Aussie servicemen and this ended in a big “blue” (brawl) between the Australians and Americans. The Americans apparently retreated to their encampment at the Melbourne Cricket Ground (MCG) for safety and there was talk amongst the Aussies to arm up and “teach the Yanks a lesson”. Anyway, things have changed since….. Tschuess aus Australien.
The term, "Pan" is a distinctly Northern Irish colloquium. My family is all from Belfast, and I'm currently in Portglenone, County Antrim. It's not out of the realms of possibility, even today, to hear a chap in the passionate throes of disagreement, admonish his opponent with the phrase, "I'll knock yer pan in, ya bastard.". When witnessed first hand, it's quite a sight to see. 🤣
The British leadership's opinion of the American soldier - "He is overpaid, oversexed and over here." The American leadership was not ignorant of this and the problems it caused. In 1943 the U.S. Army produce "A Welcome to Britain" starring Burgess Meredith. This training film addressed most of the items that Indy brings up here. A person can watch the film on UA-cam.
I'm from Brisbane and I learned a lot about the battle of Brisbane from the diggers who were here at the time. They all pretty well said that the biggest problem between the US and us was that Macarthur openly bad mouthed Australians, in fact the American officers would ridicule our diggers remorselessly. Our diggers understood that the pay was different between countries but one thing an Aussie won't stand for and that's disrespect, especially from a guest. Our diggers were some of the bravest and toughest soldiers of ww2, we turned the tides on many battles including against the Germans in tobruk and in PNG. Our boys didn't deserve that and it's still a very touchy subject.
There's a saying that some of us sometimes use here at TimeGhost: "Young, dumb, and full of cum". With so many WW2 movies starring middle aged A list Hollywood actors, it's easy to forget that this war is largely being fought by teenagers and people in their very early 20s. With that might perhaps come a certain level of impulsiveness, insecurity, and lack of critical thinking that we all develop as we become older and wiser. Mix that in with extremely high levels of stress, and fear for ones life, and it's not hugely surprising that mix ups can happen - often deadly. So as absurd as this skirmish may be, remember that we were all once young, dumb, and full of cum, and that even the older and wiser among us could make such tragic mistakes under stress.
What are some mistakes you made when you were younger?
Rules: community.timeghost.tv/t/rules-of-conduct/4518)
"Young, dumb, and full of cum" WTF
You must have some interesting conversations there at TimeGhost.
@@alexandrekuritza5685 lol
@@alexandrekuritza5685 ´´Is my kingdom com´´
Now I'm older, wiser and shooting blanks!
I’ve known about the Battle of Brisbane for a while now and what I find ironic is that despite all the underlying tensions, the event that set it off was a group of Australian soldiers actually coming to the aid of an American soldier who was being assaulted by the US military police. A mutual act of comradely distain for the MPs spiralling into a city wide riot between Aussie diggers and American GI’s.
Mob rule gets out of hand so quickly. US MP vs Australians very quickly became US vs AUS because it wasn't attacking the MPs but Americans and then it spirals. I do wonder how the Stein felt. Must've been weird to get helped by the mob and then be a target by the mob a while later.
@@midgetwars1 it was an african american soldier being helped by the Australians.
this presentation was very watered down for the modern American viewer, maybe this guy felt the average millennial American wouldnt be able to deal with the events that took place.
Yes, that is true !
Lots of tension around the way the Americans treated aboriginal soldiers too.
@@jaybruz.5688 Why wouldn't the modern American millennial be able to handle that the past Americans were racist to the degree that allied forces had to step in?
If anything, that'll be right up their alley.
"Overpaid and over here", as the phrase used to go from British troops at the sight of Americans in the UK.
My granddad who was from Liverpool and served in WW2 (Royal Artillery, fighting in North Africa and up through southern Europe), always said that the difference between American and British pay was very telling. US lower ranks were paid more than their UK counterparts, but UK officers were paid a lot more than their US counterparts. The class system has always been alive and well in the UK.
Edit: To everyone who repeatedly keeps replying to this message to tell me that I'd missed out the "over dressed" or "over sexed" parts of that quote, please bear in mind that it was my granddad talking to 11 year old me. Talking about pay was one thing as he could explain it in terms of pocket money. I think he left out the over sexed and over dressed parts as he just didn't feel like having the conversation and explaining those to young me, and I certainly don't blame him.
I think the saying was that the Americans were Oversexed , Overpaid and Over here. While The GIs would respond that the Brits were Undersexed, Underpaid and Under Eisenhower
@@DMS-pq8 yes that is the correct saying
so it means Americans have a race based segregation while brits have a class based segregation
Interesting discovery. Sounds about right.
@@okancanarslan3730 Any Briton claiming their society is not riddled with classism is lying. And any American who claims that the USA isn't racist is lying.
Neither has anything to be proud of.
Didn't read about this in the history books. Thank you for exploring all these little corners if history that have remained in the dark for too long.
It is good to remember that all sides, even our own, had problems that needed and sometimes still need to be addressed.
That said, there is something about the Brisbane story that is very Australian. To reiterate, a group of drunk Australians was harassing a drunk GI, a group of American MPs came and started to arrest the drunk soldier for his misconduct, the Australians that had been heckling the drunk soldier then got angry at the police and began harassing them, one ambitious Aussie tried to take one of the MPs shotguns out of his hands and got shot dead in the process, and the Australians spread a general anti-American panic that involved attacking anonymous American servicemen in the street. It's hard to picture that unfolding the same way in Essex.
No way did your social studies book in the 11th grade not tell you about this.......lol
. Im not avid follower of wartime history and as a young Brit even i knew the racism and foul attitude of white American soldiers based in the U.K. during WW2. It’s scandalous to think it should go untaught and be forgotten about in school curriculum.
@@tequilamockingbird758 our history texts cover this. We also look at the factors that caused it.
Holy crap! An American who can pronounce Brisbane.... I'm stunned! Well done
Yes, however uses "Autumn" to describe a period of time which must have been around September / October! :)
Nails Brisbane, immediately cocks up Queensland
To be fair, there IS a Brisbane in the USA, and they do pronounce it as BrisBANE... Not sure what to make of Quinnsland though...
@@bjerkbjerkn8911 to be fair, Queensland cocked itself up.
Bubble head comment.
These thing did not just happen just to the allied side, the germans and their allies had similar clashes as well. While working on the local museum I read a story from a MP who witnessed a very serious fight between finnish soldiers on leave and the german marching column in the town. It got so bad at one point that the german soldiers had their rifles out with bayonettes attached. Luckily the MPs where able to solve the situation withouth any deaths.
The reason for the hostility was probably the same as the british and australians vs americans. Germans had better pay and they got more food and luxury items that they gave out to civilians as gifts or payment for work rendered. In the same book there was recollection how young boys in the town loved running errants for germans as they paid with food and candies, the food was especially welcomed by the families of the children as they usually got enough to feed the whole family.
I've read that the Romanian & German soldiers didn't get on well either, with the former finding their allies to be arrogant and condescending.
@@lycaonpictus9662 at least those interactions remains civil for the most part... the Romanian and Hungarian relationship on the Easter Front was nearly warlike (supposedly) and the only way to keep all out war from erupting was to put Italians forces in between them. It was however an understandable situation given both ancient and recent history between them.
@@lycaonpictus9662 The Germans were condescending since they were better equipped and better trained that the Romanians. It was clearly not the Romanians fault that their government joined the Axis in war.
women issue was thing in that relation ship with some finnish broads leaving with germans when they retreated
@@theluckyegg3613 All the Nazi propaganda about them being the master race/herrenvolk undoubtedly played a party too.
My grandfather was there during the "Battle of Brisbane"! He was effectively an adjutant in the Navy or some kind of staff officer/liaison officer between the Navy and Army and was tasked by MacArthur's office to deal with the issues described in the episode between American and Australian soldiers. He described having to pull soldiers and other M.P.s off of each by their collars personally, received a nasty gash across the stomach by a local with a knife during a brawl, and the constant pervasive racism. My grandfather was full blooded Muscogee (Creek) and had very very dark skin. He was intentionally chosen to attempt to mediate segregation disputes for a time. This ended when he had to have a white officer, who was of a lower rank than my grandfather at the time, arrested for continuing to threaten and abuse the black soldiers working in the logistics pool. This officer could not believe that a non-white man could hold a higher rank than him and went all the way up the chain of command in attempt to charge my grandfather with impersonating an officer. Despite being totally in the right, and his work in helping quell the Australian riots eventually landing him a job physically in MacArthur's office as the war went on, the charge of "improper dress" as it was called later stayed on his record for the rest of his military career while the white officer received no punishment. He stayed in the military until the late 1950s, and his experiences in Japan and the rest of East Asia greatly influenced his love of language and culture. This is why I eventually went on to learn Japanese and Chinese myself, studying history in college.
Also, he witnessed some of the trial of Eddie Leonski, a US soldier and serial killer who killed several Australian women, further inflaming tensions. The mess of the situation and his trial is said to be one of the catalyists for the creation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). There's a great movie called Death of a Soldier that stars Reb Brown in his only good movie and James Coburn that covers this and it includes the mythical train car gun battle also mentioned in this episode. I highly recommend it.
Interesting, thanks for sharing your grandfather's story.
How some U.S. military personnel were treated back then based on their skill color is disgraceful.
My god, this episode is shocking. This personal link to it is amazing, how very cool that you know this much detail about your grandfather's service.
I remember that film. If it was accurate in it's portrayal of Leonski. I recall the man had a psychological problem that manifested itself under the influence of Alcohol.
In a normal World, it would have been enough to get him off and placed in an Asylum.
But to quench Australian demands for Justice, he was pretty much sacrificed to keep the Peace.
Man! That’s an awesome tale. Pity that some of that racist strain still persists in some parts of the US today. 😞
@@Goatboysminion Yet, as is clear in the video, it was very, very rare for US servicemen to face any charges in these cases, and the lack of any communication about what happened to the US servicemen just added fuel to the fire.
And the same "Hands off" attitude to US servicemen as persisted into the present. It is still common for US military personnel serving overseas to behave with almost total impunity. I's not that long ago since US personnel were still regularly serving in the UK, and I clearly remember ow impressively rude they could be while supposedly representing their country.
The same tensions had been experienced in WW1 although not just with Americans. The base pay of British Army privates in line infantry regiments was one shilling. But privates in the Australian, Canadian and Guards regiments received five shillings, as did specialists like the Royal Engineers. American troops in WW1 were also better paid than British. British soldiers often referred to better-paid "colonials" or British Guards or specialist troops as the "f^^^ing five-bobbers" (a "bob" is a shilling). A soldier in the Essex Regiment remembered a rhyme, "God made the world, bees make honey. The Essex do the work, the REs get the money." (REs is Royal Engineers.)
If I recall correctly in WWI the Australian soldiers were considered better dressed and paid. What goes around comes around I guess.
@@algared6131 Not just better dressed, but many Australians were taller, fitter & healthier from their general upbringing than the average British soldier from the cities.
I remember during WWI general Pershing complaining to the French military high command that French soldiers were giving cartoons and newspapers to US black soldiers where they could read and see black/white couples.
@@algared6131 Australia was about the richest country before WWI and had the best paid soldiers in that War .
But Australia had a very hard Depression and in WWII her soldiers were paid significantly less than the Americans
Australia had no conscription in WW1, having rejected it twice at national referendums, and it's armed forced remained all-volunteer for the duration of the war. The "6 bob a day" minimum pay was slightly below the minimum wage in Australia in 1914, leading to the the Australian expression " 6 bob a day tourist" early in the war before the casualty figures started coming in.
Thank you for doing this episode Indy, as someone who has lived in Brisbane and studied the battle of Brisbane I loved this episode. The local story about the fight was that the Australian Soldiers were heckling the American for not being able to hold his liquor then when the MP came they heckled him for not giving the Yank a break. It escalated into the battle of Brisbane.
Again thank you for this episode, glad I stayed up for it.
We're equal opportunity hecklers.
from memory the story i heard was they were heckling the drunk yank, who gave it back as good as he got. An American MP came up and demanded to see his leave pass and became frustrated at the time the drunk soldier took to find it in his many pockets. As soon as it was produced the MP snatched it and claimed he did not have one and thus was being arrested.
The AUssies then started abusing the MP who then raised his club to strike one of the Aussies for daring to question his authority..........so the Aussies jumped the bastard and it was on for young and old!
@@RedtailFox1 Sounds really Australian.
Australian soldiers to American soldier: insults.
American soldier to Australian soldiers: insults.
American MP to American soldier: NO PASS FOR YOU.
Australian soldiers to American MP: Nah mate we were just having a friendly discussion.
The above information came fro WW11 returned servicemen with whom I worked!
@@keithhaycraft3765 Jesus, I know I am a bit out of the loop, but we are already up to 11???
I knew of this story from my late grandfather as the Australian Soldier who was killed in the battle of Brisbane was my great uncle. But it's good to see Indy tell the story.
I'm a Brisbane boy and both my grandfather's were in WW2.
Everything said is true, I'll tell you two stories.
1. My grandfather was an infantry soldier who had recently returned from combat in New Guinea. They were given a free movie ticket. The unit turned up at the theatre and it was the movie 'Bambi'! They reluctantly went in. In the theatre it was full of US troops and many on dates with Australian girlfriends. In the movie there is a scene where Bambi says something like 'where is my mother?'. At that point an Australian soldier stood up and shouted 'She's out with a bloody YANK!'. A brawl then erupted.
2. I was told that the US MPs were shocked by the Australians behavior. They used to have saying to the effect that:
'In America if you want to stop a riot you pull out a gun, in Australia if you want start a riot you pull out a gun!'
Great grandfather was also there and also had distain for the yanks
Haha that's Gold 🏅
Damn straight bro
I heard a story from some older family of a rural pub near a US base that served both white and black American soldiers. The white soldiers demanded the pub be segregated and so the landlord put up a sign saying it was. However the local patrons and staff put coal dust on their faces and welcomed the black soldiers in while not allowing the white soldiers entry because it was segregated. Not entirely sure how true it is but it shows the differing attitudes towards race the two countries had.
That is an amazing story!
Funny how things work out. It used to be that conservative whites wanted segregation to force black people to stay away from whites. Nowadays it's liberal whites who want segregation to force white people away from everyone in order to "protect" minorities.
@@maskedbadass6802 Twisted view that you have there. But nothing that any reasonable person can say to you would change an unthinking person like yourself.
@@nparsona The only thing that's "twisted" is you writing as though that is how I want it to be. It's simply an observation of what is and there is literally no reason to be offended unless you simply misunderstand, or perhaps identify with a specific group and are so in denial of reality that you can't even agree with a comment that criticizes both sides.
@@maskedbadass6802 piss off mate it’s a nice story about pissing racist pricks off. Nothing political about it.
My grandfather was a police sergeant seconded to the Belfast harbour police when the yanks arrived. The white G.I.s would attack black American servicemen and my grandfather and his men would intervene, batons ready to inflict a “touch of the timber” as he put it. The black guys would stand back and watch as the tough Irish police “put manners” into the assailants.
However, when English and French Canadians fought they learned to leave them to it as they would invariably join together and turn on the police.
Not enough manners straighten by your grandfather. Why should we fight each other when you literally are going soon to a battlefield where you all have to fight side by side?
“Tough Irish Police” in Belfast? That would mean the RUC. These Tough Irish Police would more likely identify as British, serving a “Protestant government for a Protestant people”. The biggest propaganda weapon of recruitment into the IRA.
Catholic’s (identifying mostly Irish) being at the receiving end of the same brutality before snd up to the reforms in the 80 & 90’s.
One South African dude said to me “in Sout Ifrica, we cannot understand why in Northern Ireland one white man wants to kill another white man.”
@@Dubcel1 Harbour bulkies not RUC. Belfast Harbour Police. My grandfather was Irish as were the others. He was RUC, transferred to the “Bulkies” . He never held a passport so the modern concept of nationality does not apply. He and his wife were catholic and Gaelic speakers from Southern Ireland. He never voted and had nothing but contempt for politicians. He had a sense of fair play and always supported and defended the underdog, hence his disgust at the racism he witnessed. You have never met these people. Your opinion is based on later sad events in Belfast. What you think was likely was not how it was. Wind your neck in!
@@Dubcel1 My mothers family were Northern Irish Catholics (they've all since left). Her father, my grandfather, fought in the British Army during WW2. He likely enlisted not long after it started as he was at Dunkirk and finished the war as a sergeant in an armoured unit. I think the situation was a bit more complicated at the time than Protestant/Unionist vs Catholic/Republican.
@@Dubcel1 He said 'harbour police'. Can you not read?
Please don't bring your rubbish into this.
In NZ there is the battle of Manners St, a very long brawl started when US troops tried to tell NZ Maori personnel they weren't allowed in the bar. Next minute it's full on through the streets of Wellington.
oh Christ they really tried that with Maori bois well that's one way to get your shit handed to you.
Chea bol
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manners_Street
@@keptinkaos6384 Pakeha servicemen sided with their Maori bros too - there were at least three more such riots. Details are sparse on the incidents because of strict censorship, but at least two GIs or MPs were killed.
@@onylra6265 hi, you got any additional info on the GI deaths? Also know of a few crimes committed by GIs against civilians that were hushed up too during the war. On the scale, incredibly small numbers so not dissing those servicemen.
Still a lot of structures around the place in Wellington built by the US forces. Years back my family had a lock up in the old hospital at Silverstream built during the war. Don Adams (Get Smart) convalesced there
The saying went, “Overpaid, oversexed and over here”. There was even a serial killer among the American troops in Melbourne, a Private Eddie Leonski, who was arrested, tried and hanged in 1942.
Gatehouse Street, 'Brown Out Killer'
Ive been told that a GI in NZ who was convicted of rape was quietly taken out into the Hauraki Gulf and shot in order to 'keep the peace'.
I saw the movie a long time ago, he had something like alcohol psychosis.
The brownout killer haven’t seen his name for a while. He hopped ship pretty quick when we found out it was a yank doing it.
I have heard a story true or not, that a white woman in brisbane was supposedly raped by a black us soldier.
Because in the words of some they all looked the same, they hanged 6 poor black guys.
Incidents like the one covered in the video weren't even necessarily contained to situations where troops were deployed to other nations. You also had the infamous Zoot Suit Riots in the Los Angeles, and there was a riot in Philadelphia where a brawl between sailors & marines escalated until it had hundreds of participants.
You know, talking about wages, it would be great if you guys can tell how soldiers getting paid in ww2, and how they send their payment to their family and and how much is their wages comparable to the price in their homeland
or even more interesting, what money was good for? in Germany for example, you coud not buy much with your money... Food is rationed, and luxury goods dont come handy in 1944..
Brian, that is a great suggestion. I hope they show how much Canadian solders made and not just lump us up with the UK.
Stay safe, stay sane, be well
@@TheCurlsCrazy You could buy food at the time. There's always some food available on the black market. The problem was in not having enough money. Which was why there was a lot of barter, crime and prostitution going on.
The thing with American troops was was that not only were they better paid, which allowed them to spend more money then the locals in the UK or Oz, as this episode showed they had better access to luxury goods not available to the locals anymore. US Logistics was and is a well oiled machine that is able to ship insane amounts of goods to the troops that no other country can match. Stuff that other countries don't even deem necessary. What does a GI need with stockings? So more money then the locals and goods that they can barter. Like with any system where a lot of additional money and goods get introduced in a short amount of time some form of inflation happens which causes trouble for the locals.
Sad part is the free French in the Levantine that fought and were captured were executed for treason.
In New Zealand we had the Battle of Manners Street in our Capital City, Wellington. Some southern US soldiers objected to some Kiwi Soldiers (Combat veterans of the Maori Battalion) and were taught in short order not to mess about like that. Fortunately nobody was killed, but US medics were "rather busy" for a few days. The Maori soldiers returned to the bar and finished their beers
Don't f*ck with the Maori's, any Fallschrimjäger will tell you that!
@@Idcanymore510 These were US
Marines, mostly green replacements.
@@brettpeacock9116 Why do you say the Soldiers were from the "southern" US?
@@Mondo762 he probably means they were Dixies
Bad mistake by those yanks, serve them right 😂 Maori’s and New Zealanders generally are great people, I’d hate to face them in battle though, thankfully I’m an Aussie so we are normally on the same side 😃 we won’t mention Rugby though 🤦♂️
You hinted at The Battle of Bamber Bridge (near Preston and Southport in Lancashire, UK) and it is well worth reading up on - when the local US base tried to enforce segregation on the town the local landlords and shop keepers put up signs saying "Blacks Only" - alas tension did reach breaking point and while there are multiple versions of the story, the core agreed upon part is the locals and British servicemen supported and defended the coloured US troops, but later on there was one sided violence between white US GIs and US coloured soldiers resulting in a number of the latter being shot with at least one being killed.
Bamber Bridge makes you proud to be British
@@RemusKingOfRome
They saved Oz and Britain? Do some reading of History.
@@RemusKingOfRome
?
@@RemusKingOfRome Soviets killed and captured more German soldiers on the Eastern Front than we even faced on the Western Front.
@@RemusKingOfRome ???
the one moment of time we had the most legendary battle of them all: Florida man vs Australia man
Florida man vs Queensland man. Queensland is basically the Florida of Australia, or Florida is the Queensland of the United States
Is there really a difference? Both are on a lot of meth
My father was involved in the battle of Brisbane, fair bloody dinkum he said that it was the only battle in WWII that he had fun in. My father was a services boxing champion. He said that he threw one American into the Brisbane River.
What a legend teach the yanks some respect or they can fuck off back home
"There are 3 problems with the Americans. They are overpaid, oversexed, and over here."
- Tommy Trinder
Which led to the retort, "The problem with the British troops is they are underpaid, undersexed, and under Eisenhower."
@@kemarisite "I just made you say underwear." - Canadian troops
The US saved the Pacific from Japan! Without Admiral Nimitz, whose Grandfather was of big influence on young Nimitz, the entire war would have taken a different outcome.
@@theluckyegg3613 I wouldn’t like to guess how the Pacific war would have played out without Nimitz. Nothing but respect for him (from the uk)
Yes, but british soldiers was even lower paid than australian soldiers in ww2. And as a result of that was many conflicts. So Austalia and more Britain get many warbrides who get american husbands and move to America after ww2.😍🙃😂🙃
‘’ We British have a habit of forgiving our enemies, it releases us from our obligation of liking our friends’’
Works both ways, pal. Never heard a single kind word about the Brits and that looking down their noses attitude. Even Churchill admitted that "The British Army is not quite up to the task," and said they'd be speaking German or Russian but for the Americans. Betcha didn't know that Churchill thought so poorly of his Army. He tried to avoid direct encounters with the Germans. Actually, returning GIs spoke very favorably about the Germans and the Australians, but not the back-stabbing elitist Brits. A general order forbidding Americans from helping the Germans was issued and completely ignored.
@@johnmcguirk1073 probably because the yanks felt at home amongst nazis
@@johnmcguirk1073 Good job the Americans didn't look down their noses at anybody, no matter what their colour, eh? Eh?
@@billythedog-309 Dixies do, Yanks (usually) don't. If they're from the south and proudly look at the traitors to the Union, they're a Dixie.
The main exception to this is those from West Virginia, as it was Pro-union pro-slavery.
@@somewhereelse1235 "Pride of the South" Robby Lee was an emancipationist, 'hearth and home' for a Dixie boy you think the fellas without shoes can afford or want to buy a man in chains? You see here it was the Northern *Yanks* treatin' the West Indians and their own resident Afro-Americans with contempt. Individuals, generalisations mean nothing, I bet it was only a few Yanks really but those incidents were so high profile that it sticks in the newspapers, the minds of those who lived at the time and now, and in the history books. Makes it look bigger than it is or was.
Like the Boston "massacre" where a crowd of rioters forced a squad of soldiers to open fire and only two soldiers actually aimed at the crowd, the rest fired in the air. To this day it is remembered as government tyranny and as a massacre which to me sounds like hundreds dead and soldiers marching through the streets death squad style on the orders of King Georgy.
The newspapers like to cause a fuss and theres always drunk and sober rabble rousers looking to cause trouble. Simple as.
I bet when these Americans came over, most got along with us and the few hell raisin' asshats ruined it for everybody else giving everyone a shit name. As always.
And that "Dixies do" what all of them? Every single one? Same for "all of us"? is it "all as one"? come on mate. Some were fighting against centralised government, "States Rights" like Thomas Jefferson and his buddies said.
I bet most Yanks weren't over dressed over sexed and overpaid
I bet most Dixies weren't overt racists and slavers because there were tens of thousands of freed slaves in most southern state *capitol cities* let alone every other city among 11+ States.
I bet most Brits didnt look down their noses at "colonials" because we arent all aristocratic lords of the feckin manor, John McGuirk, we aint the stereotype your 'associated press' has labelled us as.
People love a bit of drama though don't they? That's the problem.
Facts are stubborn things. Thanks for covering this topic. I was a US Service Man stationed in Japan in the mid 1990's and again in the early 2000's. Believe it or not, we had briefings on how not to embarrass our counterparts in the Japanese Defense Forces by over spending in the bars, etc. One also had to be carful with gifting.... a bottle of whiskey that cost very little at the base exchange could cost the equivalent several weeks pay for our counter parts..... alcohol is heavily taxed in Japan and we paid no taxes on base....
As an American, I feel such shame and the appalling behavior exhibited by US Troops in Commonwealth nations. What an embarrassment. Certainly the racial violence is the most shameful of all.
So no-one is asking the question "why the racial violence?" A number of books have been written about this and it boils down to angry black soldiers who munitied frequently either because of behavioral issues or perceived mistreatment. Having said that, I do believe that the Civil Rights Act did do some good work in mitigating the main problem.
With Jim Crow laws still very much alive and well in the US, de jure racism was alive and well, and that carried over into the ranks of the armed forces. While there were cases of Black resistance among the troops, the White military authorities often did treat them as lesser peoples despite wearing the same uniforms. Having all this shown front and center to allied populations was a major embarrassment for the US.
@@christianfreedom-seeker2025 Lame, lame, lame excuse that would convince many on your side of the Atlantic but is fooling no one in more educated countries. Makes you look ridiculous. Segregation was no 'perceived mistreatment' it was a fact of American life. White Australians, New Zealanders, British soldiers, and civilians witnessed it in action in their countries and took the side (rightly) of the Black GIs. In New Zealand, the rioting (in which the Americans got hammered) had nothing to do with Black Americans but the local Maori population and started when the Americans wanted them to be served in a woodshed instead of in their own pub. The Yanks duly got their a*ses served to them with the help of local white New Zealanders. And furthermore, the Civil Rights Act wasn't until 1964 more than 20 years later, duh! Back to the drawing board, buddy, try again.
@@christianfreedom-seeker2025 That’s crap. The main problem boils down to white supremacy.
canada is ok
Hello from Brisbane!!
Never new of this incident.
Thanks for the episode Indy
I find it ironic that the heavy handed cop was named O'Sullivan. My father served in the R.A.N during the War. He often said the worst of the American MP and SP, were the Irish ones.
My father was part of an US Marine aviation crew. He was allowed to visit Australia in 1943. He had nothing but praise for the country and the people. I think most Americans and Australians got along.
Thats true. These incidents were big, but isolated, and while Indy doesn't mention it, they sound like a massive failure of leadership on both sides to maintain discipline. I imagine most conflicts were resolved before they escalated
@@mrsnrub282 I wouldn't say they were isolated. In Brisbane alone on average there were 20 brawls a night between Australians and Americans. Doesn't include other Australian cities.
I remember reading a reminiscence in a collection called "Six War Years" by Canadian author Barry Broadfoot. A Canadian Provost Corps member was sent to a fistfight on a Liverpool dock between Canadians Soldiers and USN personnel. When he arrived on scene with other Provost's they saw the fight and quickly figured out it was Canadian and American Soldiers fighting Canadian and American Sailors.
My father was in the U.S. Navy during WWII. He remembered his ship having problems getting the stores they needed moved from a warehouse to the dock by the Australian stevadores. This was in Brisbane too. The stores could only be moved by the stevadores. The day they were supposed to move the stuff, nothing showed up. Halfway through the second day, the captain started making inquiries. Nothing happened. Complaints didn't do anything. But when the harbor master found out, trucks started rolling pronto. Still, at 5PM, the trucks stopped coming. That was when the stevadores knocked off for the day. The rest of their stores were delivered the next day. After that, they never replenished in Australia again.
it's called the 8 hour day
@@ianscolari5916 With 30 minute breaks every two hours and working at a snail's pace.
Their ship was just there to replenish ship's stores and refuel. Not a month before the crew had had liberty in Noumea, French New Caledonia, and they were supposed to do a quick turnaround, so no one other than a few officers got to visit Brisbane.
they should have done better
@@ianscolari5916 then it's clearly not an 8 hour day if they should have done better.
In Darwin my father and his mates in the 2/15th Battalion did the job themselves. They worked with their rifles on their backs, and heaven help any waterside worker who tried to stop them.
Thank you for covering this topic and doing so in a dammed honest manner.
My Great Granddad had a pub in East Anglia during the war. A group of G.I.s refused to drink with the empire troops (who were "quite a good laugh") and demanded they be put in the woodshed instead. Family legend goes that Great Granddad told them to "Fuck off back to Germany". Moral was always "Never tell the landlord how to run their pub".
Sounds like your great grand dad was quite a character!
Ah the English, I love how if we dont like someone we dont just say go away, nah mate its "fook off" hahahaha, I was thinking if I were there back then pulling pints and a yank comes in pushing the African/Indian gentleman out the way and demanding to be served first when he came in last, - edit: id ask him to wait his turn but fail that - I would stick two fingers up at him and tell him to "fook off back home". Get 'im by scruff of the collar if he continues causing a fuss like, yknow? Damn Yanks, now if some Dixie boy walks in it may be a different story, if theyre one of them southern gentlemen with a bit of cowboy like respect that is, yknow down to earth country boys. But the Yankee city slicks are arrogant, not nowadays I mean back during the war, some really were Over dressed over sexed and overpaid... worse of all, they were over 'ere mayte. I hope the gooduns outnumbered the trouble raisers for reputation's sake, but they should know better coming to the homelands and seeing citizens from all over the Empire, and treatin' em as men and women not them and us.
Interesting and sad, but not surprising when you think about it. Young soldiers haven’t changed much since.
In general that's true, but race relations in the military are pretty good as they aren't segregated anymore.
@@airraverstaz Nobody was talking about that. They're talking about how young soldiers always act
@@airraverstaz For a span after the civil war they military was to a degree not segregated. It was Woodrow Wilson - that paragon of progressivism - that re-segregated the military by executive order as the US joined the Great War. It remained that way until Truman - perhaps the most outstanding thing he did. I agree though - the US military has done an outstanding job - equal to any I would venture.
@@robertkras5162 So one more crime to Woodrow Wilson that I didn't know. This man really knew how to fuck up humanity for good.
@@airraverstaz, race relations are better in the military than in the public today.
I've briefly heard about this, but it was great to hear a more detailed description of events.
I live in Brisbane and I was literally on Edward St in the city yesterday. It's crazy to imagine it being covered in brawling soldiers!
I'd not heard of this until I started work in Brisbane. For many years, I worked in the building that now stands where the battle first broke out. It's certainly changed a lot since then, but it always gave me a sense of being connected to history, just by being there.
Holy moley! I never knew about the fights between the US and Aussie troops! Definitely not something that was taught in high school or even college!
I remember the HBO series on the Pacific War and I don’t recall anything even close to issues like this.
And sad that the Australian gov’t had to bend to American idiocy about segregation. Though I would have loved to have seen the looks of the GIs when white Aussies fought alongside black troops against them.
The TV series The Pacific was mostly based on two books written by veterans, With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa by E.B. Sledge and Helmet for my Pillow by Robert Leckie, along with some extra bits about Medal of Honor recipient John Basilone. He was in a different unit than either Sledge or Leckie, so he doesn't appear in either book.
Sledge never went to Australia so the sections dealing with Australia in the series were adapted entirely from Leckie's book, which has a whole chapter dedicated to it that is titled The Great Debauch. There were a lot of Americans in Australia and not all in the same place, so Leckie wasn't involved in the Battle of Brisbane. He was in Melbourne. The troops in Brisbane were all U.S. Army I believe, while Leckie was a Marine.
There were some brawls between troops of the U.S. 1st Marine Division & the 9th Australian Division in Melbourne, but all barroom stuff and nothing like the madness covered in this video, and that was apparently settled by a joint beer party between the two divisions. Later in the war it was also reported that troops of the 1st Marine Division sent more mail to Melbourne than they did the United States, mainly of course to Australian girlfriends or wives.
Lol what a pile of shit. You realise we had aborigines that were being discriminated against at the time and for many years later?
@@stevenobrien557 No I did not sir, but what does that have to do with simon’s lecture on white Australians fighting with Black GIs against White GIs? If he’s wrong, there’s nothing stopping you from telling him.
@@lycaonpictus9662 My granddad said there was a brawl in the street outside Young & Jackson’s.
"The Pacific" managed to write the Australian and American armies completely out of the war in the SW Pacific.
Australian civilians kept thanking the Marines because all their boys were supposedly over in North Africa which was not true, they were up in New Guinea.
The event in Lancashire Indy hints at is the famous Battle of Bamber Bridge (a small town in ventral lancashire). It started after Americans complained about black soldiers being allowed in the same pubs as white soldiers, with the locals joining in on the side of the black soldiers. Not many historic events happened in Bamber Bridge (I know I grew up near there) but I feel this is a historical anecdote to be proud of
The three pubs in the village agreed to implement a colour bar as per the American MP's demands. All three stuck up "Black G.I.s Only" signs.
An in the US if you are a High School teacher you'd most-likely be fired for teacher your class this, at least in the South.
@@Shauma_llama Yet they complain about 'cancel culture'!
The First Marine Division on R&R in Melbourne after Guadalcanal managed to defuse the situation there. There began to be brawls between the Marines and Australian servicemen on leave, so a Marine officer suggested a solution; the Marines invited all the Australian servicemen to a party at the cricket ground with free beer, but served in paper cups and no MPs, the party was a big success and improved relations. Surviving Marines always spoke highly of their welcome in Australia and of the Australians.
Theres a great Training video for the American Army called A Welcome to Britain which you can also find here on UA-cam, where Burgess Meredith explains to the American soldiers all the potential conflicts which could arise from the different views. I highly recommend you to watch it, because apart from being a great source it is also a great piece of Film.
I've posted a WTF moment from that film in the comments. Uploaded by the US National Archives. Not surprised that they have disabled comments!
Is that the one where the white American officer breaks the fourth wall and tells the (American) viewers that they shouldn't be surprised to see black people treated as normal people in Britain?
@@Lttlemoi yeah, thats the one
I was just about to recommend people watch that video here on UA-cam as well. It really is a great piece of teaching differences between people throughout history. The US has actually done videos and programs like that for all countries US troops have been sent to over the decades.
@@friederrieger2893 that’s awesome!
The American officers showed wholehearted disrespect to Australian officers as well. Eventually, Mccarthur had to separate the commands. I'm American and I love our friends down under. I found it appalling that the American brass treated the Aussies like they had no idea of how to fight. If ever I wanted an ally in a fight, I'd pick Australia.
Thanks mate.
Good on ya mate
Welcome to The Land Down Under, mate. God bless Australia and the USA.
Oh I forgot to add, Mac was a d*ck. Perhaps the worst of them all.
That he was, if he’d had the balls to show up in front of the Australian troops under his command his race to the Whitehouse would have ended then and there. M
The Battle of Bamber Bridge was sorta near where I live. As I recall, there are pubs which still have bullet marks in the brickwork.
It was surprising to me that I hadn't heard of this fight till recently. That's wartime censorship for you!
I’m from Liverpool originally and only just heard of the battle of bamber bridge a month or so ago through a Facebook post - the Liverpool stories here surprised me too
I'm originally from Southport, not far away and it have known about it for a fair while, but it seems to be treated as a side note, nothing more (which really is all it was). Still I love the fact that when the nearby US base insisted on segregation for all it's troops the locals responded by putting up 'Blacks Only' notices in the windows of the shops and pubs.
Lions Led By Donkeys podcast has an episode about battle of Bamber Bridge.
It's 179 episode, from late October
Don't forget the even earlier clash between the US Marines and their primary enemy (at the time), the dockworkers union in New Zealand. The Marines eventually had to clear the docks of civilians and load/reload their ships on their own, mostly by hand.
What was the cause? Exactly?
How many died?
@@tomasinacovell4293 the US Marines 1st division arrived in Wellington, NZ (IIRC) in mid-1942 with ships loaded for an administrative move. The dock workers were, essentially, "working to rule" as though it was still peace time. They took their precise break and shift times, exercised their authority to refuse to work in inclement weather (I assume their contract allowed that), and were sporadically available for their shifts, frequently working weekends at double their pay rate but not at all during the week. The marines wound up unloading and reloading (combat loading, so toilet paper isn't blocking access to ammunition) their ships in Wellington in July so they could invade Guadalcanal in early August.
@@stevenobrien557 none that I know of.
Loading and unloading problems happened at ports in Australia too. Fights broke out between Australian longshoremen and U.S. Navy sailors when the Americans tried to move freight and stores on their own.
I first learned about the battle of Brisbane in the history guy's UA-cam channel. Nice to see it's getting covered here as well
This is a really great segment and easily some of the best WW2 historical content anywhere.
Thanks!
Dream on!
Ah this one. Reminds me of the bar scene in the 2010 miniseries The Pacific when John Basilone almost fought with other Allied military personnel while in Australia...
Which was a fictional event.
These days it's the Australian military that's considered a higher paid army. In the deployments that I went on in Iraq and Afghanistan we would always get a briefing that specifically stated we should never get into conversations about pay. I did get asked once and I just honestly told the Us soldier but then I added "but that's in Australian Dollars, so you gotta take into account the exchange rate which pretty much means we get the same". One might believe that this topic became taboo because of the events in history.
Interesting. Thank you for your service Mr Stott.
The tensions created behind the scenes in American cities due to the influx of women, African Americans, and Mexican workers under the Bracero Program for war work needs to be a Homefront program of its own.
Especially the 1943 Detroit race riot. We already skipped the 1942 incident which wasn’t war related per se, but 1943’s was.
Zoot suit riots, too.
My dad was stationed at Holloman AFB in New Mexico during the Vietnam War about a hundred miles north of El Paso. They used to drive down to Juarez, Mexico to go drinking. He used to joke that his idea of international conflict was a bar fight in Juarez. But often it was with Army guys from Fort Bliss.
Generally brawls of Marines vs Navy in any bar where the fleet stops over are... well... not unheard of... but shotguns are a next level (figures MPs...)
A strange situation. American troops in the Midlands were billeted in English homes. My grandmother lived in a three story town terrace house. She took in a Negro Army Captain, named Leroy (I am named after him). English people simply saw him as a US soldier and did not register the fact that he was different, they were just so dam glad after 2 ½ years of being on our own, that he came to help.
Um, you weren't 2 ½ years on your own. Otherwise a nice story.
Great episode. My mum was watching and can recount such incidents, even in Birmingham and near by towns. But as stated a lot were surpressed by the censor.
There was a similar incident further north in Townsville, Queensland. My Dad told me once that Aussie troops were on leave after fighting the Japanese in New Guinea. They noted the few hotels crowded with Americans & tried to force entry. My father was on base when word came through of a disturbance in town. They were issued with batons and trucked to where the fighting was. Upon seeing their own fighting Americans, they threw away their batons and joined in. At some point my Dad punched an American in the mouth, cutting his fist on teeth. He suspects he hit rotten teeth because within a short time his hand became badly infected to the point he couldn't use it for several weeks. During that time he received occupational therapy in the form of furniture upholstering....a skill which served him well after the war!
Human teeth are filthy, the worst of the Animal Kingdom.
Go to the hospital for a human bite and they will want to see you every day for 2 weeks. A dog bite, they just clean and sew up and off you go.
My uncle was run down by a US truck in Townsville during the war, was in a coma for three weeks and lucky to survive at the time. Made a full recovery and lived to be 96.
@@montecarlo1651 In all fairness I must also mention this: Dad was on a motorcycle as part of an AIF artillery unit convoy. At some point, an American convoy inserted itself among the Aussies which wasn't a problem until it turned off to a different destination. The rear part of the Aussie unit were none the wiser & just followed the Yanks. When the AIF officer realised they were missing the back part of the convoy, he sent Dad to go looking for them. He was at high speed on the sealed road but hit gravel, dodged 2 potholes but couldn't avoid the 3rd. Next thing he remembered was waking up being attended by 2 US nurses who found him unconscious on the roadside!
A lot of yanks got killed or wounded during their time here, don’t come to a country trying to throw your weight around if you can’t back it up. The yanks learned this.
What the hell are soldiers off duty suppose to do,knowing this could be the last chance to drink,gamble,screw and fight - this is hardly an American trait
My Grandfather who was in the Australian Army told me of this story many years ago. He was involved in the brawl occurring around what is now the Southbank Train station. He said the biggest driver was the polished American uniform and the medals given to the yanks for doing nothing (his words) With contempt he would say that Yanks would get a medal for passing basic training or learning how to shoot straight. They even get a medal for being shot by the enemy. On the other hand, Australian military were very reserved in giving out gongs and we looked like poor second cousins of the great US fighting force. Of course, the local girls would think the Americans were war heros with a chest full of metal and brave men and be drawn to them accordingly. Great to see this story being preserved. I had not seen any mention of it in literature ad enjoyed the retelling
Amen ! Ha ! Ha !
American Troops playing Little League Baseball.
Brisbane is my home town. Nice to see a video mentioning our city. I used to be a nightclub bouncer in Brisbane and on a rare occasion I was working when US serviceman were out on the town in uniform. I remember telling them to behave themselves or we would call the MPs. They were pretty co-operative and friendly. We didn't have a single fight that night.
I remember reading or hearing this funny quote someone once said about this very incident, stating;
"In the US, the displaying of batons and firearms in the hands of police and security is an effective way of quelling a riot, while in Australia, it's an effective way of starting one"
My Grandma said she was going to find a tall , strong, handsome Yank .
The first one she saw was a tall Sargent
walking down a Melbourne street , my granddad
Wow.
I lived for many years two doors down from a US marine from Alabama who came to Melbourne in 1943 after Guadalcanal, married a local girl and had a family. He was in the Korean War too. They lived for a long time in Japan and the US as well as in Melb.
My grandmother, a Melburnian, remembered walking home with a girlfriend one evening after work and hearing two Americans behind her, one saying "I'll have the goil wit da coils". Always made me laugh how she remembered his NJ accent. (She was married at the time so the GI lucked out.)
@@montecarlo1651 wait, the soldier "lucked out" or was "out of luck" (unsuccessful) wooing your grandma?
@@theoutlook55 He was unsuccessful
This is an absolutely fantastic video! Great work everyone!!!
I was in the Royal Navy, we paid a visit to Puerto Rico , I was told to be on shore patrol, ships policeman , to ensure our lads got into no trouble. We had around six of us, we were issued with pick axe handles, but frankly we were loathed to use them on our shipmates.
We arrived at this American sort servicemen club. The American Officer in their Naval Police was tooled up with night stick and a weapon, his men had big night sticks. When he saw us our motley crew , he said geeze how you guys going to stop a fight.
Our Petty Officer in charge said dead easy , you have a huge night stick, what if a Jack gets that from you? He might hit you with your own night stick, and that will bloody well badly. With us we do it the British Way, fight starts, so we stand round the corner, until the fight starts going down, all the venom has gone, then in we go , we won’t have any trouble, none what so ever, and this man pointing to my oppo, said he is the money man.
The American Officer said what is the money man for god sake, does he takes bribes not to arrested, our Petty Officer god no way, right there we are sorting out the fight, he is going around the floor looking for change money that has rolled out in the fight, then we have a share out of the money between us. Easy way of living.
The American Officer mouth was wide open, then he broke into laughter, saying you Brits have it all worked out, I like it like it a lot, we will do it the British way. But no trouble broke out. But it shows how carefully we view our shipmates. If we went in boots handles, they would get us at some time on board.
My mother was English. My father an American soldier. They married in 1942. The common phrase I heard from my English relatives about Americans in England. "They were overpaid, over sexed and over here!" (g)
Churchill said the only thing worst than fighting a war with allies is fighting a war without them...
When I was in Australia in 1997, we were repeatedly reminded that items purchasable from the US exchange trailer we had were NOT for resale or gifting to non-Americans. Like anyone paid attention to it....
Thanks
Americans Shooting at each other and at their allies, some things never change.
“I’ll shoot the Nazi’s, my allies and then my self.”
I fucking love this country, god bless the USA lmaoo
Even to this day many Americans are full of themselves to be honest, im proud the white British stood side by side in helping their Indian and blacks.
@@jplester9719 I noticed your initials had a green background. Green with envy?
@@rbrick3685 cringe
@@steveguild871
What is there to be envious of?
Being from Brisbane, I always knew about the Battle of Brisbane. But I didn't know about the thing that happened in the UK with the West Indians.
I live in Brisbane.
Thank you for the detail of the stories .
Just a predictable hiccup in a very consistent alliance.
Alot of our outback farmworkers and " cowboys " worked very closely and well with the " Yanks " and many cowboys even on the battle fields of France in
World war one . There was affinity there .
This was one of the only stories my grandfather told me about his service in WW2. He was a Signaller and in November '42 had been a soldier for less than a year after signing up at Flemington Racecourse in Melbourne after his 18th birthday.
My father, Australian infantry, was involved in fighting with Americans in Queensland. He used to talk about helping to clear a dance hall of yanks.
good man
Someone's gotta do it
Aussies were Jealous because GI’s were getting all the pussy.
@@teamtoken im sure the aussies gave them a good beating , like the brits did in liverpool and london or glasgow
1943 doesn't just see issues in Lancashire, there's also the Battle of Manners Street in Wellington, New Zealand/Aotearoa. Apparently sparked by racism when the USA soldiers didn't want Maori to come into the club. I'm guessing telling them they couldn't come into a place in their own country wasn't taken too well. Similar events to Brisbane ensue, Pakeha & Maori soldiers brawl with the US soldiers, and other NZ citizenry join in as well. There were a few other incidents throughout the war, including another in '43 where the Americans fought local Maori, all the way through to yet another fracas in Wellington in mid '45.
Stfu with that 'Aotearoa' shit
i woulda paid to see those fights. i know alot of maori in WA an they all pretty handy. i had a maori instructor on an engineering course, dole thing, an he was x NZ army and a security guard/bouncer as well. into martial arts of course. we would often ask him about his weekend or such an he would go straight to the bit where he had to beat somone up or toss em out. it wasnt just the telling though he would really get into it an his pupils would get really big an the veins on his neck would start pulsating, then as he's telling what he did his arms would jerk as he imagined hit'n or blocking somone. you didnt have to bring up anything that actually happened either, a "what if" situation would be good enough. he's a nice bloke with a set of principles firmly anchored, eg you couldnt say sorry for anything, he'd accuse you of not really being sorry an you shouldnt say it etc. good teacher an smart bloke.
Would like to see you Kiwis dishing it to the septics. And I tell you as an Aussie, id be wanting to join in with you.👍
Australian troops in the Vietnam War were also paid less than their US counterparts, which caused tension. On the other hand, the Australians were a relatively small force, fairly well regarded and they saw themselves as an elite, and viewed many American troops as anything but an elite.
The old story about Vietnam always was that, when it was time to camp for the night. The Australian way to do it was to eat dinner and then move a large distance to not be spotted. The American way was to shoot off a load of ammunition in a circle with the idea that "If there was anything alive out there it isn't now".
Aussies loved this because it meant nobody knew where they were, but everyone knee where the Americans were.
Which is funny, considering Americans soldiers did 90% of the fighting!
@@chaosXP3RT The Americans asked Australians to come and help them learn how to fight in the jungle since at that time, it had become our main way of fighting. We showed up and then the Americans proceeded to ignore our advice and lose a war which they should have known how to win after watching Diem Bien Phu 😂
@@chaosXP3RT The Americans also constituted 95% of the non Vietnamese troops.... Australian presence was small, so when put into context of the number of troops the Australians actually had in country those troops actually did MORE fighting than American troops....
It was likely helped along by the VC who were airdropping leaflets to the Aussie soldiers telling us to go home because they had no beef with us and that they would rather fight Americans... When your opponent wants to choose his foe you know he's not going to be choosing the harder contest.
World War Two, can you please make more videos about battles between Free France and Vichy France in various parts of the French colonial empire. Thank you very much.
That would be epic
French shooting at French? Not unheard of I suppose, just shocking.
There was the farcical Battle of Dakar and the Syria/Lebanon campaign described in "Australia's war with France" by Richard James.
U got ur wish a day later, lucky..
I used to deliver home appliances for a living. I remember setting up a TV for a customer and I saw that she had photos of her self and husband in uniform. She tells me that she used to be a nurse (he was a soldier). She then tells me about the battle of Brisbane. She was one of the nurses that patched up many of the Australian troops after the riots. Bloody amazing stuff.
As a former US paratrooper, a little bit of smack talk and light brawling is normal. But leave it to the MPs to bring sticks and guns to a punch up.
Too true
I'm an ex British Army Para trained medic , yes , much the same. Savage banter is normal , and funny too !!
Honestly, all of this just sounds like a normal Saturday night "down range" in the bars in Tongducheon.
Australia and New Zealand don't take that as an excuse. Especially since the American brawlers were attacking indigenous folkes for using their own nations ammenities.
@@PandoraKin564 Not makeing a excuse for it. Those dudes are assholes. Just saying a punch up is pretty normal in combat arms units. But useing weapons is a no go.
Hell when we were visiting some of are Australian army buddies in Brisbane, had a dude yelled some very mean spirited stuff at us and tried to punch the shortest in are group.
He was able dodge the blow, spun the guy around and put him one his ass. Good times.
This is what happens when Aussies decide to stick up for another nation's troops against those dreaded MPs. If everyone knew why it started, I'll bet the Yanks and Aussies would have been united
yeah, if there is one thing ALL soldiers, regardless of nationality can agree on, it is that they have a collective dislike of the MPs
I think when the initial clash with the MP's began at the PX, there were some Americans who joined in for a chance to get back at the MP's. But once shots were fired, it became an all out U.S vs Aussie brawl.
I'm just surprised it continued onto the next night. SURELY somebody should've asked, "why are we doing this", "oh the we're helping the American". or alternatively, "Oh, the Australians were helping us?!" WTF was Stein doing, spread the good word dude.
We forget what a different world the past can be. My father did convey escort duty in the Atlantic. with rare exception the US Navy and Coast Guard would only assign blacks to be steward’s mates (we’d all drown together my dad used to quip). The cook on his ship actually threatened him with a knife for wondering why you would hate someone because of the color of his skin
Later when the war was over and scratch crews were moving ships back to base, dad got to serve with one of the few black men who wasn’t a steward. The man was from Detroit refused to get off the ship for leave in Charleston. Sad commentary
The world actually seems completely unchanged too.
American MPs shooting both black and white soldiers for minor infractions, both Americans and Australians (over whom they'd have had zero jurisdiction, right?)
Compare that to the debate about police violence and BLM raging in the US today, and it seems like nothing has really changed in the last century....
@@MrNicoJac It has, mostly for the better. Issue these days is the speed and extent of media coverage can often make the situation appear far larger in scale than it actually is, especially if the media think it will get bums on seats watching their coverage.
Not saying things are perfect mind, not by any stretch of the imagination, or that more could not be done, it could, but it IS better in most places than it was then.
This topic was well presented in a rather neutral way. RESPECT!
Awesome and an unexpected nugget of history right here! My father was north of Brisbane in the Australian Army during WW2 and heard about the ruckus with train loads of soldiers heading to Brisbane from his area. Another big incident I read about was when a US National Guard unit sent to fight in the Pacific arrived in New Zealand. Their attitude to proud, strong, unbeaten Mauri was such that they had their heads cracked by those warriors in similar street incidents.
I think this special was really good.
I appreciated how well it dealt with complicated issues and the amount of nuance which was displayed. Especially regarding the behaviour of Americans towards British West Indians, but not disregarding informal British racsim. Another top quality Time Ghost production!
Very good, I will say part of the tensions is Australia was that at the time US soldiers were seen as lazy. They hadn’t fought in Kokodak or North Africa. Many of the troops were green.
Let's be honest here, the battle was really between American MP's and Australians. They didn't respect Australian cultural norms at all, got aggressive with them, got shocked that Aussies aren't pushovers and then escalated from there.
I would give a moral of the story, but we all know what it is.
When I was posted to an Infantry unit in Brisbane one of the US carriers docked for a few days. Earlier one Saturday night we'd seen some Shore Police getting narky on a few sailors and gave the pricks a mouthful. Later that night some Shore Police decided to walk into a club that was informally known as the '6 Brigade Boozer' to drag out a couple of drunk sailors. Needless to say, we detested this foreign concept of anyone pulling anybody out of a club for being drunk and took unbridge at their presence in our 'happy place' End result, we hid the handful of Americans in the place behind a phalanx of diggers at the bar and started pelting icecubes and beer at the Shore Patrol. I was slightly appalled by a handful of my fellow Australian Diggers throwing full glasses of Rum and Coke at the pricks. With those small 7oz mixed drink glasses with the heavy base, it's considered poor form not to quickly finish the drink before throwing the glass at someone.
Anyhow, they turned tail and ran up the stairs and that was the last we ever saw of them that weekend. And then we resumed the normal routine for a Saturday night at this particular dive and started fighting each other because "my section/platoon/company/unit/corp is better than yours"
Happy days...
Even in the military, ACAB rings true?
US Soldiers: We're paid 60 US$
Astralian: You're making 60 US$ a month? I only get 42!
UK: I'm only getting 21$!
Free french: You guys are getting paid?
Given the disgraceful pay the French infantry was getting in 1939... if the pay rate had anything at all to do with the dedication of the average soldier, France definitely deserved to LOSE the war against Germany, that's for sure!
@@mystikmind2005 I don't think France "deserved" to "loose the war" (which they kinda did not but that's an other debate)...
@@PraiseKéké The French government wasted an enormous amount of money on that white elephant the Maginot line, when they could have invested that money on better pay, training and equipment for their soldiers, so i am saying the French deserved to loose to the Germans and rightly so!
And don't tell me its easy to say the Maginot line was a waste with hindsight, no, because the French government had good people telling them it was a waste of money AT THE TIME they decided to build it, but old men with ww1 mindset won the day and then lost the war, so, no excuses, they deserved to lose.
@@mystikmind2005 The Maginot line worked lmao
It was built to prevent a frontal assault in an industrially important region and drive the germans in Belgium, which it did.
The issue was that Belgium went back on its cooperation with the allies and low cooperation between units.
ANd the french professional army was well trained, the reserves weren't.
The french didn't "deserve" to loose.
@@PraiseKéké You obviously do not understand military history all that well if you can say the Maginot like worked.... of course it 'worked', the issue is value for money, how well the Maginot line worked compared to if they had spent that money on better training salary and equipment for the army, and as such the Maginot line stands out as the dumbest military investment in all of history, regardless of what the Belgium's did or did not do.
This plus having smart people telling them the Maginot line was a bad investment at the time, plus having a 100 year old man, no wait, 69 year old man stuck in ww1 thinking running the army, means in my book, the French deserved to lose.... or put it another way, the Germans deserved to win!
Been waiting for this, I remember my grandfather telling me about it as he was in a war industry and in Brisbane the whole war
I go into MacArthur's old headquarters on Edward Street most days (it's called MacArthur Central now) and I had never heard this in 60 years of living in Brisbane. This channel is so great at the little details - well done. (Also, kudos on the pronunciation!)
Also Australian MP'S took off their Mp arm bands and joined in attacking American's. fights broke out in multiple Australian city's after they heard about this. Pretty sure was Australian's who comadeered a Army truck and got hold of Tommy guns and Grenades. Reporter who witnessed it from a balcony said was biggest fight he witnessed in whole of WW2 American soldiers were flying through the air.
Other sotries say was over 5000 people involved, not 2000. Australian man and women too.
Australin's were sick of General Macarthur not giving them credit in Battles when was Australian only wins he stated was Aliie's wins. Why Australian's still do not get the credit for being so important in victorie's in WW2.
Because MacArthur was running for President & wanted an American victory... the only problem was his troops where pathetic & the only successes occurring at the time were Australian ones
It is well known that you never pull a gun on an Aussie (which the US MPs nearly always did) as it doesn't intimidate him but makes him just that bit madder. This was one of the main causes between Aussies and the US MPs. There were many instances when there was a brawl between Aussies and Americans and when the MPs arrived both combined and turned on the MPs. The biggest problem was that the MPs couldn't understand the Aussie attitude to having a gun pulled on them, ie not being intimidated.
MP's proving they are a
soldier's worst enemy. Still true today
Pulling a weapon at a punch up is considered pretty bad etiquette in Australia back in the day. Turns what might have been a one on one confrontation into something else damn quick. Too many Americans were quick to pull knives or guns but it seems the U.S MP's were even more prone to doing so, inflaming the situation every time.
Read a book about the incidents years back.
"The Battle Of Brisbane"
Peter A Thompson and Robert Macklin
@@chrispeel3123 An excellent read, I was living in Brisbane when this happened and always thought that the US MPs brought tommy guns into the fray
Since when has it been a "well known" thing that you never pull a gun on an Aussie? You made that up to feel good. It's nonesense.
@@Joshua-jj4xnAsk a policeman. How would you know if is nonsense?
Thanks Indy, interesting topic. My grandfather was a police officer during WW2, he was not allowed to join up due to him being both reserve occupation and having 2 brothers in the forces, 1 was a merchant seaman who died in the Atlantic, the other was a paratrooper lost at Arnhem.
Grandad was based near a very important RAF base with a pub close by (surprise) one of those with no colour bar, but plenty of hooligans who could cause the odd problem, so when the USAAF moved in the trouble got right out of hand.
One incident involved yank MP's getting stuck into RAF personnel, which as a sergeant he dealt with, when a yank MP thought he was tough, that was apparently hilarious, getting sparked out with 1 punch by a heavyweight boxer (guess who) cured him of that.
We, his grandkids, have a lot of contacts abroad now, many in the west indies and across Africa because of him, he had many many friends who travelled from far away for his funeral, all because of his attitude towards racism, he truly hated it.
So it makes you wonder, who was really behind these problems? Maybe a certain foreign power could have enjoyed causing a few internal problems for the Allies? Makes you think eh?
very fun episode! Would've never known this otherwise.
What an incredible episode! I only knew very little bits of this story but thanks to you I know it more! This is why I love this channel!
I knew a guy from the former Soviet union who'd been one of the first Russians into Da-Nang after the American withdrawl from Vietnam. He said that they were there so quickly, that the freezers in the PX were still cold - he remembers one colleague looking into one freezer, uttering in disbelief '20 flavours of ice cream.... how the fuck can you be expected to fight with 20 flavours of ice cream?' His own personal memory were the motorbikes, he said there were dozens still there, (looters had taken a few - but the majority were still there) and he was disappointed there were no Harleys, they were all Japanese & mainly mainly Honda's.
Very intresting what was his job and where did he go after that?
A little note about this whole thing from an American Sergeant Bill Benston who witnessed both nights of unrest in Brisbane said that he was amazed to witness Americans "Flying up in the air" during the brawling. But he added that afterwards; "But after that, it sort of settled down and you go into a pub and an Aussie would come and up and slap me on the back. "Oh, wasn't that a good ruckus we had the other night? And have a beer on me."
Funny how loads of dudes had a massive brawl one night and were drinking the next. Great stuff.
There is a brilliant video on UA-cam called "WW2 Training Film for US Soldiers | How to Behave in Britain | 1943" and at around the 25 minute mark they discuss racial tensions and how to behave in Britain.
Have you seen the one by Burgess Meredith (Batman's penguin?)
@@archstanton6102 That's the one he's referring to
@@reginabillotti I thought that was just pub etiquette
@@archstanton6102 No, the pub scene is one part of a longer video
@@reginabillotti The pub scene is in the video I mentioned. Or at least there is a scene with a pub in it.
This was fucking amazing. One of my all time favorites from you guys. Loved this one truly.
Very good story bro & well told.
Thanks Phil. Lots more to come.
Speaking as an Australian, its quite sad that we left the British empire as serfs/slaves to be dominated/ owned by the Americans instead. But such was the price of not being owned by Japan.
Australia is too large a country with too small of a population to do anything else. It's not really about Brits, Americans or the Japanese. Australia's geopolitics mean allying with a superior naval power is necessary to function as a country.
Basically, Australia's " tactic " in defense is too hold out and wait for allied support ( USA ) because our army, navy and airforce is too small, we simply rely on our allies to come save us from invasion, we can really only hold out for a short time, even nowadays. 80k strong defence force, but it's a lot smaller when it comes to, the fighting corps.
Shame to read about US troops treating ours like dirt
@@acbeck0680 agreed. But we don't need a large army. We need a bigger airforce and navy.
You won in the end bc now you're independent and one of the richest countries in Earth. I'd say the tradeoff was worth it.
Great overview ... a few Artists at the time (notably Albert Tucker - 'Victory Girls' 1943) in Melbourne were painting the WW2 social political issues. US soldiers were constantly on the streets and in the pubs and hangouts of Melbourne during their war time break. They used to intrude and anger the local Australians and Tucker especially watched this happen and ended up producing many artworks based on how the society was changing for the worse....
It would be intresting to talk about a similar thing: the behavior of allied soldiers in the Middle East, notably how the Australian acted in Egypt when they were not fighting (on permission in the streets of Cairo) often without any regards for the locals
The Australians were laying down machine gun fire on Lawrence of Arabia's looters to protect the locals.
My mum showed me pictures from her Dads side of the family from when one of my relatives was in Egypt in WWI, a lot of interesting photos. There were ones of the camps with the Sphinx in the background. They used to use it’s nose as target practice, which is quite horrible, but I guess they didn’t really understand the history or anything behind it.
Thanks for making this. I haven't heard this much detail of the event. 15 years ago I made a doco about this for Queensland museum but it was swiftly ordered re-edited to remove the battle Of Brisbane as being irrelevant. Recently I uploaded the redited video to UA-cam but again it was auto set to private. The story is told here but it is always a different version.
That's really interesting. What was the subject of the documentary? And what different details have you heard in other accounts?
Fantastic, thank you for your polished presentation of history. Well done .
Thank you for your kind words and your support!!
Same thing happened in Wellington New Zealand. Yank servicemen had a go at a Maori solider in a club in Manners St. They came to regret their racism
Rookie error on the part of that silly yank. He probably got belted into the 1950s for cultural faux pa.
Where?
@@SamO-ik2cm are you not able to read bro?
Lets just say you don't mess with the Maori people
@@yesman1822 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Mate, my uncle told me about his experience after returning from the Middle East (he was a Rat of Tobruk). Apparently, some Americans ran into trouble in Melbourne with the returned Aussie servicemen and this ended in a big “blue” (brawl) between the Australians and Americans. The Americans apparently retreated to their encampment at the Melbourne Cricket Ground (MCG) for safety and there was talk amongst the Aussies to arm up and “teach the Yanks a lesson”. Anyway, things have changed since….. Tschuess aus Australien.
The term, "Pan" is a distinctly Northern Irish colloquium. My family is all from Belfast, and I'm currently in Portglenone, County Antrim. It's not out of the realms of possibility, even today, to hear a chap in the passionate throes of disagreement, admonish his opponent with the phrase, "I'll knock yer pan in, ya bastard.". When witnessed first hand, it's quite a sight to see. 🤣
I love it! 😂
The Dublin version is:”I’ll knock yeer block off, ye bastard!”
@@Dubcel1 🤣🤣🤣🤣
True. I’d say that was a quick tempered Royal Ulster Rifle writing that letter 😂
@@harrywaters7718 You could well be right mate 😂
It's in Scots too.
The British leadership's opinion of the American soldier - "He is overpaid, oversexed and over here." The American leadership was not ignorant of this and the problems it caused. In 1943 the U.S. Army produce "A Welcome to Britain" starring Burgess Meredith. This training film addressed most of the items that Indy brings up here. A person can watch the film on UA-cam.
I'm from Brisbane and I learned a lot about the battle of Brisbane from the diggers who were here at the time. They all pretty well said that the biggest problem between the US and us was that Macarthur openly bad mouthed Australians, in fact the American officers would ridicule our diggers remorselessly. Our diggers understood that the pay was different between countries but one thing an Aussie won't stand for and that's disrespect, especially from a guest.
Our diggers were some of the bravest and toughest soldiers of ww2, we turned the tides on many battles including against the Germans in tobruk and in PNG. Our boys didn't deserve that and it's still a very touchy subject.