Technical nerd correction at 7:25: the 78L09 is a 9V voltage regulator, not a transistor. I figure the jumper is connecting the pad for the regulator's input straight to the output. When you remove the jumper and put in the regulator, the 12V power is regulated down to 9V for the 8580. If you ever wanted to put an 8580 in there, that regulator can be obtained very cheaply.
I think we need David to do a video about piracy in his youth. What was his handle? Not saying he was cracking and pirating or anything, but we all had a handle.
@@soapy7261 Do you sir experience sarcasm???? "And it was just like that, Brandon realized that there was sarcasm..... And memories of sarcasm flashed through his brain, and he realized why he lost all those girlfriends over the years...."
Something probaly only headphone users noticed: the SwinSID chip on the replica board had some pseudo stereo emulation. I suspect this is an optinal feature and probably off by default on the real C64. Edit: I checked it on the creator's website and stereo is metioned.
@Макс Крюков also has a stereo version of SSI-2001. In it, the 6581 and 8580 work synchronously, for the left and right channels respectively (DuoSID). vk.com/music?z=audio_playlist-94485973_76874835
There's at least 2 in the wild ;) One owned by me, the other by another VOGONS user, with a third card being "lost" track of a few years ago, which actually led to me starting the replica project.
@@Booruvcheek I'm almost a year late but by the looks of it there are pads for attaching external LEDs on the PCB. At 13:06 it's clearly visible. So if you want you can solder wires to these pads and put remote LEDs where you like.
@@Sheevlord That's a nice feature right there. Sadly, I don't own a C64, nor have I ever seen one of those machines. I doubt there were many of them in the 80s in USSR during my childhood, in fact, owning a computer (any computer) was something I could only dream of. But anyway, thanks for pointing that out. Also, nice userpic :D Mr. Palpatine was perhaps the best part of the prequels.
Glad to see my AdLib replica being put to good use so soon. :) My own copy is still nicely chugging along in my 286. It was relatively easy to build. The guy who made the design really did a good job.
13:00 - omg Dave, that gave me an idea - put pin headers there, and then mount LEDs to the case, and connect them to the headers. That'd be a cute lil addition to a Commodore64
That was great, I love hearing old Sound Cards :) It amazes me what some people manage to build in their spare time, we now have excellent ISA as well es parallel port sound cards and wave table boards. There is stuff for collectors, but also cheap sound cards with OPL3 chips, so a bit for everyone!
Phil, i was already going to comment here, check PhilsComputerLab channel for the best old hardware reviews and comparisons, but you commented first. haha, man thanks for your channel, i see all your videos
Thank you for the video, The 8-Bit Guy! 09:01 - definitely much better music on C64 version. The marketing problem of the Innovation that you've mentioned may well be the source of the problem. SSI-2001 support, even when it was added, was very basic, SID chip was treated more like 3-voice Tandy chip with another waveforms... Not nearly unleashing the full potential of the SID. As a result the sound was pretty "meh" compared to Adlib or other cards. No contest to the same SID in the C64. 11:33 - I didn't try SwinSID of any version in my cards and I don't know about its ability to work on different clocks... Probably it only can emulate 0.95 MHz (C64 PAL) and 1.023 MHz (C64 NTSC). But SSI-2001 runs the SID on 0.895 MHz. Probably SwinSID tries to detect the input frequency, rounds it to one of the C64's and can not produce sound in tact with actual clock (0.895 MHz), also sounding a little off in tone. And for real SID it is not a problem at all, it will run at any clock provided. Also, you can switch a jumper on the SSI-2001 replica to make the SID run at 1.023 MHz (C64 NTSC) clock. In "officially supported" games tone will be off, but with osp2001 *.SID player it will run exactly as C64 (NTSC version).
I would also attribute this to composer skills. IBM PC composers generally did think in terms of musical instruments that a sound card should simulate and musical notes that you can play on it. Hence it is no surprise that MIDI did play an important role in PC music. That approach completely fails with a SID, because it doesn't resemeble real instruments at all. In order to unleash the SID, you need to look within a musical note and turn several knobs of the analog synthesizer (such as filter frequency and pluse width) in orde to make sound more lively and dynamic. Also the high accurate frequency control (16 bit versus 12 bit for Adlib) does allow effects that are impossible with Adlib, but you only notice that when you are after those effects rather than just wanting to play some notes. C64 composers did look deeper, because the SID forced them to do so. Music for the SSI-2001 was likely an afterthough and so the PC composers did not want to spend too much energy on getting the best out of that weird Commodore sound chip.
Daniël Mantione at first glance yes, that can justify "lazyness" of PC music composers. But heart of the AdLib card - Yamaha OPL2 FM-synth chip - is more or less the same story. It is a tone generator with a bunch of "knobs". But OPL2 had more voices and waveforms. Even if composers were too lazy, why not just port exact same melody from C64 version of the game, the SID is the same and it can be addressed the same way as on C64.
Getting music between platforms wasn't nearly as easy as it is today, since they usually only had 5.25" floppies to work with and each platform usually had its own floppy standard that was incompatible with the other platforms. It wasn't until after 3.5" floppies became the norm that FAT became available on multiple platforms, enabling easy file transfer between them. It would have been much easier for them to convert existing PC versions of the music to the Innovation version than transcribing the code from the C64 version by hand.
Certainly true, but the "file exchange on floppy" problem was the easiest to solve: The Commodore 1571 can, with the right software, read and write PC floppies. A far worse problem would have been that any C64 music was written in 6502 machine code and would have to be completely rewritten for the x86 CPU of the PC, even though the sound chip was exactly the same.
That Chime sound is so charming, i'm surprised that type of idea was never implemented in any other sound chips back in the day to differentiate themselves from their competitor. Something like "Only TRUE AdLibs will tell you on startup" would be a killer selling point from a marketing point of view.
Acorn computers such as the BBC micro and Archimedes machines make a soft beep on startup too. Its used as a type of POST signal to let you know its working. Of course PC's always make that beep too (not a nice sounding one like this) so I think the C64 is better off with this beep. Its like a little "hello" when you switch it on.
Interestingly enough, for a long time, you could actually tell what series a Mac was from based on the sound of its startup chime. They basically recreated the chime each time a new major version of the ROM was made, up until Steve Jobs returned and made sure every mac from the original iMac onward used the exact same sound.
when he said the SID can't be made any more I thought why so I looked it up the SID is insane for a single chip. Properties of the SID 3 tone generators (voices), frequency 0-4 kHz (16 Bit decomposition) 4 forms of waves (sawtooth, triangle, rectangle pulse width modulation, (white) noise /rush) 3 amplitude modulator, until 48 dB 3 envelope generators Synchronization of the oscillators Ring modulation Programmable filters (low pass, bandpass, high pass) Master volume in 16 steps 2 A/D-converter (8 bit, low frequency, used for reading paddle input) Random generator Audio input (cannot be used for sampling, but the signal can be routed through the SID filter) it's not that they can't they don't want to try
I find it so funny that different communities assign a wildly different monetary value to things. The Ad Lib is a great example. - As a vintage computer nerd, I kinda get why certain old things are expensive. Nostalgia, wanting to relive experiences, etc. - As a synthesist, I’m shocked how expensive Ad Libs are. I really like and can program FM synthesis (most of the synth community HATE it) and thus simple 2OP synths are worthless, or at least “feel” worthless within that world. The little PSS 570 being a very cheap example. Anyone here tried a Yamaha SY77? Very tricky to master (6 operator + PCM) but rewarding to explore!
You know its the future when its easier to have a tiny computer (likely much more powerful than the c64) emulate a chip in software rather than to recreate the hardware.
Woah! As soon as I list my second SwinSID Ultimate on eBay I open UA-cam and find you talking about it! Upload seems to have been 15 minutes earlier, while I was still writing my description. Crazy! I planned a dual SID setup with this after frying my 6581 a year ago but it took so long to get one that I figured it was a waste to deprive someone else, especially after someone else in the SSU FB group got two a few days before me and did the same thing.
if you do indeed have several of both go for it but be careful I tried to sell a Covox speech thing once and almost got screwed over jerk never had the intention of paying but hilariously his girlfriend told me about his intentions and saved me a lot of trouble unfortunately the prick started abusing her fortunately one of the neighbors heard and called the police it was one of the craziest moments of my entire life.
My kind of video, very well made! Somehow my heart knew Ultima VI would be there as a demo for both cards :) Huge shoutout to : shock__, Fagear, borisfox, CodeKiller (and others I forget), for making the Innovation replica possible.
I don't know where to start explaining why but... Thanks Dave! Each and every new stuff from you makes my day, but for whatever reason this was such a joy to watch I had to state it here.
Everyone who sticks their heads out even a little bit on UA-cam and especially if they gain momentum like The 8-Bit Guy, LGR, Techmoan etc. will have haters no matter what you do. Like a friend of mine said, you can post a video of firemen rescuing kittens from a burning building and someone will hate that video even though it is purely benign and not offending anyone. Even I have a few regular haters on my videos. But as EEVBlog said in one of his latest videos about the Kickstarter project he debunked, he got paid dislikes by the thousands on those two videos he posted, dislikes doesn't actually mean the video gets pushed down in the UA-cam system. They have altered their algorithms so that any reaction to a video will cause more stir and they will float to the top if there is enough commotion. At least that what he said, if it's true, I don't know. He certainly got more hits and exposure of those dislikes that added to more plays and more income. So the haters kinda lost that one twice.. once for paying those farms to dislike and once for giving him more attention and plays. :D
I've been watching your videos for over 8 years, I'm no longer a mac person like I was when I first started but I still love your videos! We need videos like this and we need someone keeping up the old school stuff and making it interesting! People are so hyped about what's to come they forget where we came from. Thank you for never forgetting!
Oh my god. I've been plugging those CF-to-IDE adaptors into IDE cables. It didn't occur to me you could plug them straight into the motherboard. What an idiot I am.
I usually plug into cables. Unless troubleshooting or doing some kind of permanent install (or just running out of cables). Less wear on the motherboard.
I have learned SOOOO much about the machines and games I grew up with because Dave has the best way of explaining such complex subjects like, sound and graphics. My family watches him every week. Everyone should really check out all his playlists. For me, I'm not into keyboards but I find myself really enjoying 8-bit keys. He is just a great UA-camr. Thanks for the channel :)
ΑΡΗΣ ΚΟΡΝΑΡΑΚΗΣ RS-232 is a serial port. AT and Baby AT systems primarily used a serial port mouse. IBM Personal System/2 added their own semi-proprietary mini-DIN connectors for mouse and keyboard, hence, “PS/2.” The original Microsoft Mouse was serial but they revised it. Just like early USB mouses had a PS/2 adapter or late PS/2 mouses has a USB adapter, early PS/2 mouses has a serial adapter and later serial mouses had a PS/2 adapter. I recall some of my Microsoft Mouses requiring me to send off for the adapter, free by mail.
As a teenager, I love your videos, despite not being a fan of 8-bit computing. Even though I'm not a fan of these games/computers, I watch almost all of your videos... As you present these products, it's always worth watching :) Keep up with the good work :)
It actually would be easy to clone a SID chip but it would not be economical. Therefore the SwinSID exists because it emulates it with parts readily available.
The original factory is gone. Even if you went to the huge expense of reverse engineering the chip and made some, it would not have the same analog properties of the original chip so would be "close" but never be "the same".
No chip fab does work at that rather chunky scale. The SID is a hybrid analog/digital chip and is highly dependent on the manufacturing process used at the time. Factories have moved on.
You would need to find a fab that would manufacture the chip before that and reverse engineer the die then you manufacture the chip the is very expensive.
The dated tech has basically been lost. Sure, one could use parts and remake the chip, but it wouldn't sound the same, nor behave the same. Kinda sad, but you know, that's how it is....
it is lovely to see an amd k6-2 I got one of those working fine. it is a great computer. great video. seeing new versions of old cards it is great to me, it is a way to replace broken parts.
This takes me back.... Loved the Adlib card, before most computers went to the Creative labs Sound blaster. I had one on an Olivetti 286 running at 12mhz, which had a massive 20MB hard drive!
Brings back memories, love the sound of those old computer tunes from the DOS days! I noticed you're handling those chips and it looks like you're not guarding against static electricity. Want to be careful with that, especially that SID chip.
@Lassi Kinnunen Well... not quite. You see, the chip on the AdLib is the Yamaha YM3812, a.k.a OPL2, and there are no SB16s with an OPL2 chip. The one in *some* SB16s is the YMF262, or OPL3. Even though the OPL3 is backwards compatible with the OPL2, they're not exactly the same. Also, some SB16s had a Yamaha YMF289, or OPL3-L, that is a smaller variant of the OPL3 that runs at a different clock rate and has slightly lower pitch compared to the original OPL3 and even worse, some SB16s don't even have an OPL chip and the whole FM synth thing is emulated, and not very well, through something called CQM synthesis. I have tried at least one of each chip and while you can't really tell any difference between the YM3812 and the YMF262 in AdLib-written music, you can tell there's a slight difference in pitch in the OPL3-L and you can definitely tell something's not right with CQM synthesis.
Oh yes, К155ТМ2 ( www.microshemca.ru/TM2/ ), КМ155ИЕ6 ( www.microshemca.ru/IE6/ ) К555ЛН1 and the venerable and ever so popular К155ЛА3 ( www.microshemca.ru/LA3/ )
Very interesting episode! Love all your vids and hope to see many more episodes in the future. Keep up the good work Dave! Best wishes from Andreas in Sweden! P.S. Would love to come see your museum sometime but it's a bit far from here in the viking zone. If I do plan on ever going to the US I have to plan a trip home to you :)
Тот момент, когда одновременно и удивлён, и не удивлён комментарию)) Здравствуйте, Дима) Ну и раз уж тред есть, то, дабы не множить, подпишусь - Макс большой молодец!
Greetings to the 8-Bit Guy; I have recently gotten an SD2IEC for my Commodore 64 so I can play more games on my machine. However, I've been having trouble getting games that require multiple disks (such as Ultima IV) to work on my computer, or at least after the second disk is required. Would you please consider making a video that explains how best avoid such issues that are commonly encountered by those starting out with vintage computers who may not have such a background in this area. Many thanks and I hope to hear from you soon.
I got one of those things a while back was majorly disappointed that I couldn't a bunch of multi disk games to work. So I got a 1541 Ultimate-II cartridge and was sad no more. SD2IEC is now a hand me down to the Vic-20 and surprisingly works really well on that machine. You should just retire that thing IMO
Yes, I did, however, I was having a bit of trouble getting rid of the ".txt" suffix even though I'd deleted that from the name, the Commodore screen still read, "autoswap.lst.tst". When I went back on my PC to investigate I found that if I right clicked the file in the list of options, my security software had listed, "Scan autolist.lst.txt" so I am a bit confused on what to do.
If you are editing the file in notepad when you save the file change the file type to "All files" which should allow you to manually name the file "autoswap.lst". Or as mentioned below, configure windows to always "show extensions for known file types". After you do this all files with have their extension visible and when you edit the extension windows will ask you to confirm you wish to change the extension. You can find that setting in several places. If you are using win 10, you have a "File extensions" tick box in the View menu in File Explorer. This is only for the folder you are currently viewing. You can also set it for all folders by opening "Change folder and search options" in the File menu of file explorer. You need to UNtick the "Hide extensions for known file types" If you are using win 10, search in cortana for File Extensions and the setting pops up. Once that is done the extension should be editable. Your file will appaer to be named as autolist.lst.txt and you can just delete the .txt.
Also, there’s chip fab process issues - even if you have the original artwork for the masks; modern chip fabs will produce chips with different analog characteristics than the original 1970’s MOSTEK chip fab did...
I wanted to know too. i looked in the comments section to see if somebody else asked. i am making this dumb comment so I can get notified of other answers.
cissa95 There are already several FPGA SID clones, and some use external analog parts to simulate the original filters more faithfully. But, to my ears, even with the digital filters, it sounds awesome. It's especially great in "fake stereo" mode on headphones, where each of the three channels is panned slightly left or right. The thing is, the original SID chips could sound noticeably different from each other, even from the same revision or batch. And then there are quite a few different revisions of both the 6581 and 8580 which all sound different. This obviously tends to make C64 fans say "Well, it doesn't sound quite like MY SID chips...". Of course it doesn't. :p Most of them have all been characterized for their frequency / distortion / filter response etc., and there IS such a thing as "the average SID chip". (for both the 6581 and 8580.) Sure, the FPGA core versions might sound a bit too clean compared to the average original SID, but there are lots of options for tweaking the resolution, the filters, choice of DAC etc. ;) Sound of the SID replacements like SwinSID are very good, too, but may still have a few incompatibilities with a handful of games / demos.
Legends say that having found no apprentice worthy of his standards of excellence to train, the Last Sidmaker took the secrets of his craft to his grave; and thus Sidmaking came to a tragic end amidst much ululation and despair...
matthijs janse was that an octave? Sounded like a few steps down to me. I am wondering whether this another NTSC vs PAL thing, where the chip was running at the wrong speed.
It was off by four steps and a flat. An octave is eight steps, or seven and a sharp/flat for major/minor scale. David's PAL theory sounds like the most accurate diagnosis.
The SID player doesn't know is whether the SSI card is using a real SID or a SwinSID, so there shouldn't be any difference regardless of PAL/NTSC. Also, neither the real SID nor the SwinSID have any idea whether they are PAL or NTSC either - they should just run off the clock that's fed to them. My guess is that the SwinSID is expecting one of the C64 clocks (~1.023 MHz NTSC, ~0.985 MHz PAL) and doesn't like the clock which the SSI card is sending it (~0.895 MHz).
No, the SSU has it's own clock, but does not detect the external one. you have to manually set if you using PAL or NTSC pitch. Also there is a "fun fact" about the SSI: it runs on a different clock than any C64, depending on the board it may have jumper to set different clocks, but the SSU only capable of handling true C64 PAL or NTSC clocks as of now.
Thanks for bringing this to light, I agree with Wolvenar about selling my older hardware. I have a Sound Blaster 16 ASP ver. Still in the box from 1993 with all software and a couple of AdLib cards and no telling how many other different brand cards. This will be like winning a small lottery, lol:-) Thanks again.
That SwinSID probably has more processing power than the entire C64.
Emulating a physical chip in a not-quite-a-chip package is fascinating.
"Yo,I heard you like computers so I put a computer in your computer."
@@twistedyogert someone putting a graphics card on somebody's computer be like
Mule Ghostbusters monty on the run
Monty one the run looks fast NTSC
Chopo moo cow
It would be really nice if Planet X3 supports Innovation SSI card since it has 3 voices and it uses the same sound chip as the C64.
Technical nerd correction at 7:25: the 78L09 is a 9V voltage regulator, not a transistor. I figure the jumper is connecting the pad for the regulator's input straight to the output. When you remove the jumper and put in the regulator, the 12V power is regulated down to 9V for the 8580. If you ever wanted to put an 8580 in there, that regulator can be obtained very cheaply.
13:26 That seems like a legal copy of Ghostbusters to me.
No its not, I have the original Ghostbusters disk and it does not look like that
@@soapy7261 do you hear the joke flying over your head like a hurricane-force gust?
I think we need David to do a video about piracy in his youth. What was his handle? Not saying he was cracking and pirating or anything, but we all had a handle.
@@soapy7261 Do you sir experience sarcasm???? "And it was just like that, Brandon realized that there was sarcasm..... And memories of sarcasm flashed through his brain, and he realized why he lost all those girlfriends over the years...."
@@soapy7261 r/woooosh
Something probaly only headphone users noticed: the SwinSID chip on the replica board had some pseudo stereo emulation. I suspect this is an optinal feature and probably off by default on the real C64. Edit: I checked it on the creator's website and stereo is metioned.
@Макс Крюков also has a stereo version of SSI-2001. In it, the 6581 and 8580 work synchronously, for the left and right channels respectively (DuoSID).
vk.com/music?z=audio_playlist-94485973_76874835
The Innovation SSI-2001. It's the near-impossible-to-find sound card, the holy grail of sound card collectors.
There's at least 2 in the wild ;) One owned by me, the other by another VOGONS user, with a third card being "lost" track of a few years ago, which actually led to me starting the replica project.
And even these remakes seem impossible to find or buy, at least here in the States...
Holy yes those LEDs
Yeah.. too bad they stay hidden under C64 keyboard :(
A c64 II with acrylic case would look amazing with the chip inside
@@Booruvcheek I'm almost a year late but by the looks of it there are pads for attaching external LEDs on the PCB. At 13:06 it's clearly visible. So if you want you can solder wires to these pads and put remote LEDs where you like.
@@Sheevlord That's a nice feature right there. Sadly, I don't own a C64, nor have I ever seen one of those machines. I doubt there were many of them in the 80s in USSR during my childhood, in fact, owning a computer (any computer) was something I could only dream of.
But anyway, thanks for pointing that out.
Also, nice userpic :D
Mr. Palpatine was perhaps the best part of the prequels.
@@Booruvcheek Yep. Then again, it's not surprising, since Ian McDiarmid who played him is a renowned actor with a long career.
I saw that cracked copy of Ghostbusters!
GHURSBUSTURS
@@poble Ghostbusters
Glad to see my AdLib replica being put to good use so soon. :) My own copy is still nicely chugging along in my 286. It was relatively easy to build. The guy who made the design really did a good job.
scams scam scammers AdLib yamaha sound opl midi
13:00 - omg Dave, that gave me an idea - put pin headers there, and then mount LEDs to the case, and connect them to the headers. That'd be a cute lil addition to a Commodore64
Agreed! I loved the look of those LEDs, they would look great on the case itself.
I mean Clearly thats why there are pin headers there. but it would look pretty swanky
there are holes, but it seems to come unpopulated, so he would need to add the header pins.
Red yellow and blue of the color bars?
^THAT would be a thing of beauty - a Commodore 64 Logo Plate with inbuilt LEDS and plexi lightpiping that acts as an accessory to the SID clone!
That was great, I love hearing old Sound Cards :) It amazes me what some people manage to build in their spare time, we now have excellent ISA as well es parallel port sound cards and wave table boards. There is stuff for collectors, but also cheap sound cards with OPL3 chips, so a bit for everyone!
Hi Phil! I love seeing my favorite UA-camrs checking out each other's videos!
Phil, i was already going to comment here, check PhilsComputerLab channel for the best old hardware reviews and comparisons, but you commented first. haha, man thanks for your channel, i see all your videos
A 'bit' for everyone?
Pun intended, or happy accident?
Kra Z Kapin :D
I was hundred percent sure I would see your comment here =]]
Thank you for the video, The 8-Bit Guy!
09:01 - definitely much better music on C64 version. The marketing problem of the Innovation that you've mentioned may well be the source of the problem. SSI-2001 support, even when it was added, was very basic, SID chip was treated more like 3-voice Tandy chip with another waveforms... Not nearly unleashing the full potential of the SID. As a result the sound was pretty "meh" compared to Adlib or other cards. No contest to the same SID in the C64.
11:33 - I didn't try SwinSID of any version in my cards and I don't know about its ability to work on different clocks... Probably it only can emulate 0.95 MHz (C64 PAL) and 1.023 MHz (C64 NTSC). But SSI-2001 runs the SID on 0.895 MHz. Probably SwinSID tries to detect the input frequency, rounds it to one of the C64's and can not produce sound in tact with actual clock (0.895 MHz), also sounding a little off in tone. And for real SID it is not a problem at all, it will run at any clock provided.
Also, you can switch a jumper on the SSI-2001 replica to make the SID run at 1.023 MHz (C64 NTSC) clock. In "officially supported" games tone will be off, but with osp2001 *.SID player it will run exactly as C64 (NTSC version).
I would also attribute this to composer skills. IBM PC composers generally did think in terms of musical instruments that a sound card should simulate and musical notes that you can play on it. Hence it is no surprise that MIDI did play an important role in PC music.
That approach completely fails with a SID, because it doesn't resemeble real instruments at all. In order to unleash the SID, you need to look within a musical note and turn several knobs of the analog synthesizer (such as filter frequency and pluse width) in orde to make sound more lively and dynamic. Also the high accurate frequency control (16 bit versus 12 bit for Adlib) does allow effects that are impossible with Adlib, but you only notice that when you are after those effects rather than just wanting to play some notes.
C64 composers did look deeper, because the SID forced them to do so. Music for the SSI-2001 was likely an afterthough and so the PC composers did not want to spend too much energy on getting the best out of that weird Commodore sound chip.
Daniël Mantione at first glance yes, that can justify "lazyness" of PC music composers.
But heart of the AdLib card - Yamaha OPL2 FM-synth chip - is more or less the same story. It is a tone generator with a bunch of "knobs". But OPL2 had more voices and waveforms.
Even if composers were too lazy, why not just port exact same melody from C64 version of the game, the SID is the same and it can be addressed the same way as on C64.
Getting music between platforms wasn't nearly as easy as it is today, since they usually only had 5.25" floppies to work with and each platform usually had its own floppy standard that was incompatible with the other platforms. It wasn't until after 3.5" floppies became the norm that FAT became available on multiple platforms, enabling easy file transfer between them.
It would have been much easier for them to convert existing PC versions of the music to the Innovation version than transcribing the code from the C64 version by hand.
Certainly true, but the "file exchange on floppy" problem was the easiest to solve: The Commodore 1571 can, with the right software, read and write PC floppies.
A far worse problem would have been that any C64 music was written in 6502 machine code and would have to be completely rewritten for the x86 CPU of the PC, even though the sound chip was exactly the same.
I think for authors of the game at a time transferring their source code or any other parts (such as music) between platforms was not an issue.
That Chime sound is so charming, i'm surprised that type of idea was never implemented in any other sound chips back in the day to differentiate themselves from their competitor. Something like "Only TRUE AdLibs will tell you on startup" would be a killer selling point from a marketing point of view.
that chime reminds me of the mac computer one.
The Apple IIGS makes a similar-sounding chime when you turn it on or reset it.
Acorn computers such as the BBC micro and Archimedes machines make a soft beep on startup too. Its used as a type of POST signal to let you know its working. Of course PC's always make that beep too (not a nice sounding one like this) so I think the C64 is better off with this beep. Its like a little "hello" when you switch it on.
Macs still make that very annoying sound. >:(
Interestingly enough, for a long time, you could actually tell what series a Mac was from based on the sound of its startup chime. They basically recreated the chime each time a new major version of the ROM was made, up until Steve Jobs returned and made sure every mac from the original iMac onward used the exact same sound.
I'm sick but this 8-bit guy video really improved my day.
when he said the SID can't be made any more I thought why so I looked it up the SID is insane for a single chip. Properties of the SID
3 tone generators (voices), frequency 0-4 kHz (16 Bit decomposition)
4 forms of waves (sawtooth, triangle, rectangle pulse width modulation, (white) noise /rush)
3 amplitude modulator, until 48 dB
3 envelope generators
Synchronization of the oscillators
Ring modulation
Programmable filters (low pass, bandpass, high pass)
Master volume in 16 steps
2 A/D-converter (8 bit, low frequency, used for reading paddle input)
Random generator
Audio input (cannot be used for sampling, but the signal can be routed through the SID filter) it's not that they can't they don't want to try
I find it so funny that different communities assign a wildly different monetary value to things. The Ad Lib is a great example.
- As a vintage computer nerd, I kinda get why certain old things are expensive. Nostalgia, wanting to relive experiences, etc.
- As a synthesist, I’m shocked how expensive Ad Libs are. I really like and can program FM synthesis (most of the synth community HATE it) and thus simple 2OP synths are worthless, or at least “feel” worthless within that world. The little PSS 570 being a very cheap example.
Anyone here tried a Yamaha SY77? Very tricky to master (6 operator + PCM) but rewarding to explore!
Microchips made in the USSR, Belarus and Russia in the video with an the 8-bit guy, it's very nice) In a SSI replica.
I love how there's always seemingly more to learn about obscure PC sound cards! Very glad to know about the AdLib reproduction.
7:03 You can see the cut in the shielding where he installed the dual SID chip device.
Great video like always Mr. 8-Bit Guy! Nice to look at these replica soundcards.
You know its the future when its easier to have a tiny computer (likely much more powerful than the c64) emulate a chip in software rather than to recreate the hardware.
Actually FPGA would be much better because it is not emulation at all and there for more accurate.
KRAFTWERK2K6 Except an FPGA (or CPLD) doesn't do the analog stuff. A microcontroller/DSP can calculate the result and feed it to a DAC.
Actually from what I have seen in this video, there's a Xilinx chip on that SID-Board, meaning that it is an FPGA an no software emulation.
In the near future we can simply download hardware as software. We are going to be able to download more RAM as much as we need.
Just the other day I was reading about a project to allow using a Raspberry Pi to emulate a 1541 disk drive...
Woah! As soon as I list my second SwinSID Ultimate on eBay I open UA-cam and find you talking about it! Upload seems to have been 15 minutes earlier, while I was still writing my description. Crazy!
I planned a dual SID setup with this after frying my 6581 a year ago but it took so long to get one that I figured it was a waste to deprive someone else, especially after someone else in the SSU FB group got two a few days before me and did the same thing.
That's pretty much my whole problem with hardware/video game collecting in a nutshell.
That swinsid chime makes me feel happy inside
So calming.
Wow. I did not realize these two cards were fetching so much. I have several of both. Sounds like I need to start slowly selling these off.
if you do indeed have several of both go for it but be careful I tried to sell a Covox speech thing once and almost got screwed over jerk never had the intention of paying but hilariously his girlfriend told me about his intentions and saved me a lot of trouble unfortunately the prick started abusing her fortunately one of the neighbors heard and called the police it was one of the craziest moments of my entire life.
r/thathappened
How could anybody lie that randomly, I think this strangely has a chance of being true.
Maybe, but ill let reddit decide :P
maxxdblade it really did happen whether you choose to believe me is up to you.
My kind of video, very well made! Somehow my heart knew Ultima VI would be there as a demo for both cards :)
Huge shoutout to : shock__, Fagear, borisfox, CodeKiller (and others I forget), for making the Innovation replica possible.
Acknowledged :)
- shock__
Imagine hardware that was top of the line in the 80's is now someones hobby project...
in 20 years, we'll see people cloning iBooks in their garages
SID chip sounds so warm.. Oh Analog, how I miss thee
I don't know where to start explaining why but... Thanks Dave! Each and every new stuff from you makes my day, but for whatever reason this was such a joy to watch I had to state it here.
5:37 "$69, making this a very attractive deal." :^)
mmm... I see.
Toadlover404 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Emulated Excitement Love your username.
NUT
😏
How can anyone possibly down vote these videos? They are harmless, historical, edutainment. Another great trip down memory lane, many thanks.
Everyone who sticks their heads out even a little bit on UA-cam and especially if they gain momentum like The 8-Bit Guy, LGR, Techmoan etc. will have haters no matter what you do. Like a friend of mine said, you can post a video of firemen rescuing kittens from a burning building and someone will hate that video even though it is purely benign and not offending anyone. Even I have a few regular haters on my videos.
But as EEVBlog said in one of his latest videos about the Kickstarter project he debunked, he got paid dislikes by the thousands on those two videos he posted, dislikes doesn't actually mean the video gets pushed down in the UA-cam system. They have altered their algorithms so that any reaction to a video will cause more stir and they will float to the top if there is enough commotion. At least that what he said, if it's true, I don't know. He certainly got more hits and exposure of those dislikes that added to more plays and more income. So the haters kinda lost that one twice.. once for paying those farms to dislike and once for giving him more attention and plays. :D
ChEeSyBoOfS they probably live in australia and think the thumbs up is thumbs down, and vice versa
I've been watching your videos for over 8 years, I'm no longer a mac person like I was when I first started but I still love your videos! We need videos like this and we need someone keeping up the old school stuff and making it interesting! People are so hyped about what's to come they forget where we came from. Thank you for never forgetting!
I love your videos. You're bringing back a lot of old memories of being a future computer nerd in the 80's.
3:39 - lots of Soviet-made TTL/LS TTL logic chips!
Oh my god. I've been plugging those CF-to-IDE adaptors into IDE cables. It didn't occur to me you could plug them straight into the motherboard. What an idiot I am.
there are models that allow to put directly and others that need a cable.
This made me laugh more than it should've had!
There are 2 different type, it all depends on the base of the card whether it is a pin end or a socket end ( male or female )
Jamie I made the same mistake, so don't worry. Now, I won't have a flash card dangling out of the case on my Gateway PC.
I usually plug into cables. Unless troubleshooting or doing some kind of permanent install (or just running out of cables). Less wear on the motherboard.
Nice a long video, can't wait to watch! It's always cool watching your videos and what you do!
I have learned SOOOO much about the machines and games I grew up with because Dave has the best way of explaining such complex subjects like, sound and graphics. My family watches him every week. Everyone should really check out all his playlists. For me, I'm not into keyboards but I find myself really enjoying 8-bit keys. He is just a great UA-camr. Thanks for the channel :)
16 Minutes of 8Bit Guy goodness, amazing :D
EpicLPer kawaii desu!!!
Succ
Wait how is this comment from 5 hours ago when the video was uploaded 6 minutes ago
EpicLPer I was thinking the same thing
UA-cam Administration don't question it
The emulating SID chip decreases the pitch by a bit, making Ultima VI sound more like the AdLib version.
Hi, David! Saw the article talking about your game. Was happy to see you getting some much-deserved exposure :-)
Love that you coordinated your shirt to the topic you were discussing
“At the moment, I don’t [have a Microsoft Mouse]”
Prepare yourself for the deluge of people offering you a Microsoft Mouse! ;)
Emmett Turner I have an optical USB one, but I'm not shipping it...
Dušan Xmetov is that the alternative name for the PS/2?
ΑΡΗΣ ΚΟΡΝΑΡΑΚΗΣ RS-232 is a serial port. AT and Baby AT systems primarily used a serial port mouse. IBM Personal System/2 added their own semi-proprietary mini-DIN connectors for mouse and keyboard, hence, “PS/2.” The original Microsoft Mouse was serial but they revised it. Just like early USB mouses had a PS/2 adapter or late PS/2 mouses has a USB adapter, early PS/2 mouses has a serial adapter and later serial mouses had a PS/2 adapter. I recall some of my Microsoft Mouses requiring me to send off for the adapter, free by mail.
Well, I have a old serial Microsoft Mouse that I don’t use anymore...
RAMChYLD I might’ve been wrong so send him a message. :)
Excited to watch some 8-bit guy
As a teenager, I love your videos, despite not being a fan of 8-bit computing.
Even though I'm not a fan of these games/computers, I watch almost all of your videos...
As you present these products, it's always worth watching :)
Keep up with the good work :)
Speaking of sound, I love your intro music, especially on big speakers.
То чувство когда видосы бачило выходят чаще на других каналах чем у него)
thanks for the info everybody
It actually would be easy to clone a SID chip but it would not be economical. Therefore the SwinSID exists because it emulates it with parts readily available.
The original factory is gone. Even if you went to the huge expense of reverse engineering the chip and made some, it would not have the same analog properties of the original chip so would be "close" but never be "the same".
No chip fab does work at that rather chunky scale.
The SID is a hybrid analog/digital chip and is highly dependent on the manufacturing process used at the time. Factories have moved on.
You would need to find a fab that would manufacture the chip before that and reverse engineer the die then you manufacture the chip the is very expensive.
The dated tech has basically been lost.
Sure, one could use parts and remake the chip, but it wouldn't sound the same, nor behave the same.
Kinda sad, but you know, that's how it is....
They are all pure goodness! Thank you 8bit guy~
it is lovely to see an amd k6-2 I got one of those working fine. it is a great computer. great video. seeing new versions of old cards it is great to me, it is a way to replace broken parts.
About to head to bed, buuuuuuuuuuuut Now I can't for 16 minutes longer.
Goldenknight01 same dude I'm so tired
The original Adlib is fantastic. I prefer many games' Adlib music over Sound Blaster. Doom and Dune II come to mind. So good!
I just started playing Doom with Ad Lib music for the first time, and I must say, I'm liking it way better!
@@oneirophon8912 Even though it sounds EXACTLY the same...
@@fifaworldcup1994 I'm not sure what you're talking about. The Ad Lib version sounds completely different from the Sound Blaster version.
This takes me back.... Loved the Adlib card, before most computers went to the Creative labs Sound blaster. I had one on an Olivetti 286 running at 12mhz, which had a massive 20MB hard drive!
Brings back memories, love the sound of those old computer tunes from the DOS days! I noticed you're handling those chips and it looks like you're not guarding against static electricity. Want to be careful with that, especially that SID chip.
Crap, Ad-Lib cards are expensive! o_o
I think I'll just hang on to my Sound Blaster 16.
@Lassi Kinnunen Well... not quite. You see, the chip on the AdLib is the Yamaha YM3812, a.k.a OPL2, and there are no SB16s with an OPL2 chip. The one in *some* SB16s is the YMF262, or OPL3. Even though the OPL3 is backwards compatible with the OPL2, they're not exactly the same. Also, some SB16s had a Yamaha YMF289, or OPL3-L, that is a smaller variant of the OPL3 that runs at a different clock rate and has slightly lower pitch compared to the original OPL3 and even worse, some SB16s don't even have an OPL chip and the whole FM synth thing is emulated, and not very well, through something called CQM synthesis. I have tried at least one of each chip and while you can't really tell any difference between the YM3812 and the YMF262 in AdLib-written music, you can tell there's a slight difference in pitch in the OPL3-L and you can definitely tell something's not right with CQM synthesis.
Хех, долго же Макс ждал)
Great video. Loved the content. Loved the old sounds
It's always awesome when you upload.
On one of the close looks, I've just realized that almost all of the microchips on the Innovation card are Russian chips. That's very interesting.
Oh yes, К155ТМ2 ( www.microshemca.ru/TM2/ ), КМ155ИЕ6 ( www.microshemca.ru/IE6/ ) К555ЛН1 and the venerable and ever so popular К155ЛА3 ( www.microshemca.ru/LA3/ )
Maybe because the guy who made this card (Serge), is Russian, from Moscow.
In Russia, you don't clone sound card. Sound card clones you
@@fenrirwolfy1848 this card was made by Maxim Krukov, not Serge.
the innovation sold for $69
"A very attractive deal"
Sound Card video for my birthday? Awesome!!
I had an adlib card in one of my first PCs. Thanks for bring back the memory.
Знакомые все микросхемы :)
10:03 that’s the PAL Version if I’m not mistaken
FWIW, the 78L09 specified on the silkscreen is a 9V voltage regulator, not a transistor. :)
I love the jingle at the start of your videos
Date code on 3812 is 2013.
Major clue there.
Yay!
Wow, I had no idea Adlib cards had gotten that expensive. Great episode, you went into a crazy level of detail with it.
I love your videos, greetings from Brazil!
The best youtube channel ever
SID n a PC !!!!?!?!?!?!? AWESOME !
Very interesting episode! Love all your vids and hope to see many more episodes in the future.
Keep up the good work Dave!
Best wishes from Andreas in Sweden!
P.S. Would love to come see your museum sometime but it's a bit far from here in the viking zone. If I do plan on ever going to the US I have to plan a trip home to you :)
I'm definitely going to look into getting one of those adlib clones for my old 8088 machine.
Yay! Battletech!
Q: Board Game or Video Game BattleTech?
Scouttrooper39 CRB-27B both, but I specifically love Crescent Hawks Revenge because it birthed MechCommander
Cool! Always nice to meet another battletech universe lover!
Макс молодец!
Тот момент, когда одновременно и удивлён, и не удивлён комментарию)) Здравствуйте, Дима)
Ну и раз уж тред есть, то, дабы не множить, подпишусь - Макс большой молодец!
Дмитрий Бачило, Маэстро Fagear риспект 👍
Вы оба молодцы!
О Боги транзисторных долин, я поклоняюсь вам за столь прекрасный рассвет!
Less vodka, more english.
Aw man, that chip with the blinking LEDs sure looks awesome!
I really like singer at the end of your video. Listened five times that part. :)
swinsid likes my left ear a lot
2:03 bonk.
Everytime the 8bit guy uploads i immediately watch it, great content
You won't find this kind of content anywhere else.
Good work 8BG !
Greetings to the 8-Bit Guy; I have recently gotten an SD2IEC for my Commodore 64 so I can play more games on my machine. However, I've been having trouble getting games that require multiple disks (such as Ultima IV) to work on my computer, or at least after the second disk is required. Would you please consider making a video that explains how best avoid such issues that are commonly encountered by those starting out with vintage computers who may not have such a background in this area.
Many thanks and I hope to hear from you soon.
e-mail him as well to make sure
I got one of those things a while back was majorly disappointed that I couldn't a bunch of multi disk games to work. So I got a 1541 Ultimate-II cartridge and was sad no more. SD2IEC is now a hand me down to the Vic-20 and surprisingly works really well on that machine. You should just retire that thing IMO
Yes, I did, however, I was having a bit of trouble getting rid of the ".txt" suffix even though I'd deleted that from the name, the Commodore screen still read, "autoswap.lst.tst". When I went back on my PC to investigate I found that if I right clicked the file in the list of options, my security software had listed, "Scan autolist.lst.txt" so I am a bit confused on what to do.
Ok, much appreciated.
If you are editing the file in notepad when you save the file change the file type to "All files" which should allow you to manually name the file "autoswap.lst". Or as mentioned below, configure windows to always "show extensions for known file types". After you do this all files with have their extension visible and when you edit the extension windows will ask you to confirm you wish to change the extension.
You can find that setting in several places. If you are using win 10, you have a "File extensions" tick box in the View menu in File Explorer. This is only for the folder you are currently viewing. You can also set it for all folders by opening "Change folder and search options" in the File menu of file explorer. You need to UNtick the "Hide extensions for known file types"
If you are using win 10, search in cortana for File Extensions and the setting pops up.
Once that is done the extension should be editable. Your file will appaer to be named as autolist.lst.txt and you can just delete the .txt.
10:57 soviet chips._
That's because the replica is made by a guy from Russia, Макс Крюков. He has a UA-cam channel. One of the videos is about this replica sound card.
soyuz nerushimy
@@Sheevlord More to say, now Innovation SSI-2001 has MIDI drivers and should work with a great amount of games: www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=39270
As always, excellent video !
Wow man, blast to the past.. awesome video.. so many old good memories. Damn, I'm old! lol
Макс красава
Why cant anyone make sid chips anymore?
Likely nobody can get the masks used for manufacturing the ICs.
You could reproduce one using reverse engineering, but it would be hard.
Also, there’s chip fab process issues - even if you have the original artwork for the masks; modern chip fabs will produce chips with different analog characteristics than the original 1970’s MOSTEK chip fab did...
I wanted to know too. i looked in the comments section to see if somebody else asked. i am making this dumb comment so I can get notified of other answers.
cissa95
There are already several FPGA SID clones, and some use external analog parts to simulate the original filters more faithfully.
But, to my ears, even with the digital filters, it sounds awesome. It's especially great in "fake stereo" mode on headphones, where each of the three channels is panned slightly left or right.
The thing is, the original SID chips could sound noticeably different from each other, even from the same revision or batch.
And then there are quite a few different revisions of both the 6581 and 8580 which all sound different.
This obviously tends to make C64 fans say "Well, it doesn't sound quite like MY SID chips...". Of course it doesn't. :p
Most of them have all been characterized for their frequency / distortion / filter response etc., and there IS such a thing as "the average SID chip".
(for both the 6581 and 8580.)
Sure, the FPGA core versions might sound a bit too clean compared to the average original SID, but there are lots of options for tweaking the resolution, the filters, choice of DAC etc. ;)
Sound of the SID replacements like SwinSID are very good, too, but may still have a few incompatibilities with a handful of games / demos.
Legends say that having found no apprentice worthy of his standards of excellence to train, the Last Sidmaker took the secrets of his craft to his grave; and thus Sidmaking came to a tragic end amidst much ululation and despair...
Great job as usual 8 Bit Guy!
Cool video! Good to see you managing to get content up even while grinding through coding X3, i hope its coming along well =)
лойс за к155
Только после твоего замечания заметил что там затесалась ЛАшка. Держи лойс, заслужил за внимательность
did you notice monty on the run was like an octave lower on the simulated sid?
matthijs janse was that an octave? Sounded like a few steps down to me. I am wondering whether this another NTSC vs PAL thing, where the chip was running at the wrong speed.
It was off by four steps and a flat. An octave is eight steps, or seven and a sharp/flat for major/minor scale.
David's PAL theory sounds like the most accurate diagnosis.
The SID player doesn't know is whether the SSI card is using a real SID or a SwinSID, so there shouldn't be any difference regardless of PAL/NTSC. Also, neither the real SID nor the SwinSID have any idea whether they are PAL or NTSC either - they should just run off the clock that's fed to them. My guess is that the SwinSID is expecting one of the C64 clocks (~1.023 MHz NTSC, ~0.985 MHz PAL) and doesn't like the clock which the SSI card is sending it (~0.895 MHz).
No, the SSU has it's own clock, but does not detect the external one. you have to manually set if you using PAL or NTSC pitch.
Also there is a "fun fact" about the SSI: it runs on a different clock than any C64, depending on the board it may have jumper to set different clocks, but the SSU only capable of handling true C64 PAL or NTSC clocks as of now.
Noticed that immediately - "what do you mean some of the percussion track is missing, this is not even the same tone!"
"Hurry, old friend!"
Gets me every time.
Love the little LED's on the swinSid
its been like 16 seconds and theres already 300 views
Probably David's patrons - I believe they get early access to the videos.
10:23 Monty on the Run? No, I'm pretty sure this is "We Are Number One"
Very dead
Ignore the haters We are number one will never die.
ScientificStevie NOW LOOK AT THIS GAME THAT I JUST FOUND!
A U T I S M (look for Mowtendoo-Autism).
Its been over a year since anyone has thought this was funny go the hell away
That microcontroller sound chip replacement is really cool!
I don't know if it is the intro music or something else, but I love watching 8 bit guy's video in the morning.
my tv has this weird thing, if the screen is blank... it looks like "Space War!".
HyperSlime YT completely wrong and how do you know it was burn in
White Noise, lolz
Like
Very nice episode, thanks!
Thanks for bringing this to light, I agree with Wolvenar about selling my older hardware. I have a Sound Blaster 16 ASP ver. Still in the box from 1993 with all software and a couple of AdLib cards and no telling how many other different brand cards. This will be like winning a small lottery, lol:-)
Thanks again.