To add to Gavin's comments about Origen, I'll mention some other relevant passages in Against Celsus. In 5:11, we're told that "we ought not to pray to beings who pray themselves". In 5:12, Origen writes, "It is wrong, then, to attempt to pray to a being who does not permeate the whole world such as the sun or moon or one of the stars." He tells us that "every prayer" is offered to God (7:51). In summary, "Away with Celsus' advice when he says that 'we ought to pray to demons [angels, whether good or bad]'. We ought not to pay the slightest attention to it. We ought to pray to the supreme God alone, and to pray besides to the only-begotten Logos of God" (8:26). The comments of both Celsus and Origen are best explained if the mainstream Christian view at the time was that we should pray only to God, not to saints or angels. For some comments from modern scholars about how Origen believed in praying only to God, see Henry Chadwick, ed., Origen: Contra Celsum (New York, New York: Cambridge University Press, 2003), n. 6 on p. 266; Robert Bartlett, Why Can The Dead Do Such Great Things? (Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2013), approximate Kindle location 4717; John McGuckin, ed., The Westminster Handbook To Origen (Louisville, Kentucky: Westminster John Knox Press, 2004), 38; Julia Konstantinovsky, ibid., 176. For example, McGuckin, in the source cited above, writes, "Origen is clear in this work [On Prayer] that prayer ought to be addressed to God the Father alone." Konstantinovsky, writes, "He [Origen] is also much concerned with the question, 'To whom should one pray?' In the Peri Euches [On Prayer] Origen states categorically that we 'must never pray to anything generated, not even to Christ' (PEuch 15.1) and that it is a 'sin of ignorance' to pray to Christ (idiotiken hamartian) (PEuch 16.1). In his later works, however, Origen seems to have changed this view and certainly allows prayer to be addressed directly to Christ (CCels 8.26; HomEx 13.3). In fact, he often addresses invocations of his own to the divine Christ."
@@ConfessingExalter bro what? What kind of argument is that , Jesus is God, Mary is not, the Saints are not, yes you can pray to Jesus. What an absolute poor comment.
@@maciejpieczula631 If the traditional Roman Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) claims about the history of their teachings were true, Origen shouldn't have needed to change his mind. And there's no reason to think he would have. Including Jesus as a recipient of prayer is in a much different category than including saints or angels. The former doesn't logically lead to the latter. And we could turn your speculation around and ask whether historical sources who accepted prayer to saints and angels may have changed their mind if given more time.
Gavin I’m Orthodox. I’ve loved the back and forth on various topics between you, Joe and Trent especially. Y’all are laudatory examples of good faith discussion and I hope hard feelings never develop and this all can continue. God bless
@@saintejeannedarc9460I’m a Catholic and I like Dr. Ortlund. There’s plenty of us Catholics that like his approach and character. I hope uncharitable and slanderous Catholics repent.
Bman5257 If he is right then we are idolaters and pagans. This is despite the fact that even the early reformers venerated the blessed mother and prayed to saints. So who exactly was the first Christian to say praying to saints is idolatry?
I'm catholic. A convert in fact. I enjoy listening to both sides. I think videos like these (clarifying one's) are super helpful. I enjoy gavins contribution to the protestant catholic dialogue. Even though we see things differently. God bless him.
The common catholic argument I hear of “don’t you ask your friends here on earth to pray for you… why can’t you ask the saints in heaven…” to be misleading, particularly when referring to prayers to Mary. It seems like Marian devotion is so much more than merely “asking a friend to pray for me.” I need not “devote” myself to my friend in order to ask him to pray for me. I would disagree with prayer to Mary and to saints, even without the pomp and circumstance of Marian devotion. But if the process of these prayers was much simpler and more like “hey friend, could you pray for me” then maybe the matter could move down on the theological triage scale for me.
Even more than convincing me of the points he is trying to make, Gavin has taught me to be humble and gracious in all of my interactions about theological differences. His tone is sharply different than so many of those who oppose him. Praise God!
It doesn't really matter though, I still see so many nasty comments on the Catholic channels that answer to Gavin's videos. I don't see those same accusations and nasty comments to other Catholic apologists, so I wonder about that. Catholics don't like to be challenged on their beliefs, no matter how graciously it is done. These videos were merely that one of their church fathers doesn't see things exactly how they do and doesn't support praying to saints. They have to own each and every church father, and see that they are agreed w/ in every single way.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 I hear you. But when their institution has plainly taught that there is no salvation outside of itself, then it’s more understandable as to why they would not be as quick to graciously agree to disagree. Protestants can be wrong on certain issues and still rejoice in the gospel. Catholics can’t rejoice in an infallible teaching office if in fact it is not so on even one issue. Thanks for your response!
@@DanOcchiogrosso-uj4be It's a high handed and harsh approach then. We are still admonished to have patience, grace and longsuffering w/ one another. And that we have faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love.
Wow that is remarkably bad. I see now why you had to make this video, not only because of his mis presenting you but also trying to make Origen say exactly the opposite of his repeated point.
@@marriage4life893 Yeah, no. That's to be totally ignored and never answered to by Catholics. I've never had a Catholic explain why Jesus' model of prayer doesn't count. They just ignore when I point out the Our Father, and just parrot about church tradition. They claim they esteem the bible, but put tradition above the bible very consistently. If this is pointed out, they just claim that they own the bible, they Gave Us the bible, because the Catholic church canonized it. Some even claim they actually wrote the bible. That's how big Catholic pride and hubris can be.
I strongly suggest people watch Joe Heschmeyer’s rebuttal to this video because he shows how Gavin really is misunderstanding Origen. Gavin might still disagree, but Joe has some good information about it. It would be nice if the two could dialogue directly.
Pray simply means talk to or make a request (at least historically when Catholics say pray to a saint). Catholics ask saints for prayers the same way we ask for prayers on earth. It’s not circumventing Jesus; it’s going to Jesus together as family. Jesus talked to Elijah and Moses when he was transfigured, Revelation demonstrates that those in heaven are aware of what happens on earth and even present earthly prayers to the Lord in the form of incense, scripture says we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, angels have always ministered to humans and had back and forth dialogues. When you put all this together, it’s no wonder we have evidence of Christians evoking saints since the early centuries. It’s Protestants who came up with the idea that Christ’s body, his bride, his kingdom, is somehow separated by death.
@@thegoatofyoutube1787 Catholics say they don't pray to saints but rather they talk to them just like they would if they asked someone in church to pray for them. Would you walk up to someone in church and say this? “Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil; may God rebuke him, we humbly pray. O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who wander through the world for ruin of souls. Amen.”
@@thegoatofyoutube1787 I would humbly request people to stop using the Transfiguration as an allowance for them praying to dead Saints. First Jesus had to be transfigured and by God's permission allowed Peter, James and John to see this. As we are, we cannot be transfigured in order to see in the spirit we cannot see whom we are praying to. Scholars and theologians think that the appearence of Moses and Elijah purposely was about what Jesus was going to achieve by His death, which was to fullfil the law(Moses) and the prophecies(Elijah). Jesus loves you. He told us to pray to the Father and only THROUGH Him alone. He never directed His disciples to pray through anybody else be it Mary, Apostles or Prophets. He is our friend and our saviour. Praying for one another is just that, that is why we gather for prayers. We all have times of weakness where we need one another. It is mistake to extend that into heaven. That's why people have familiar spirits of dead persons haunting them. Those defending these practices will be held accountable to what they teach. It will not be a good thing to be judged more harshly than others.
As an evangelical Christian I would not dare to pray to Mary the mother of Jesus or to the Apostles Peter, John, or Paul even though all four saints are in heaven with Christ. To pray to the saints would indicate that one believes the Lord Jesus Christ is not our only intercessor with God the Father which would be heresy. Prayers to the saints would be wrong even if one does not worship them.
Ummm... you just agreed with the catholic church? The catechism very clearly says that Jesus is the ONLY mediator to God the Father, but there are many mediators / intercessors before that, between me and Jesus. (Not to god the father). For example, my mother-in-law (Non denominational) interceeded and helped bring me closer to Jesus, as well as many others praying for me, and YT teachers helping refine my thinking. I asked them to help (pray means to ask - in monarchy, in legal papers, in court, in movies, etc. Prayer ALWAYS means to ask. Literal translation. Modern language is very diluted and twisted unfortunately last century. I asked / prayed for help, and my non-denominational mother in law and non-denominational husbandinterceeded and help mediate, bringing me closer to Jesus
@@miracles_metanoia Yes, they say talking to a saint is just like talking to a buddy when you want prayer. Who talks to a buddy like this: Holy Mary, our Mother. Today, each day, and in our last hour we entrust ourselves entirely to your loving and singular care. We place in your hands: our entire hope and happiness, our every anxiety and difficulty, our whole lives. May our every endeavor be directed and guided according to the Will of Your Son, which is your will, by the aid of your prayers and special favor with God. Amen.”
Dr. Ortlund is literally impossible. How can a human be so charitable and hospitable in the midst of blatant misrepresentation and borderline insult? I legitimately thank the Lord for people like Gavin to set a Godly example of how to love your neighbors.
I watched Joe's video a few times, as I've always been very curious how on earth Catholics justify praying to saints. While I found Joe's arguments pretty darn frustrating, because they were so threadbare and twisted scripture into pretzels to justify their practice, I didn't find it insulting to Gavin.
@@saintejeannedarc9460You say “curious how they justify” as if there are any biblical arguments against prayers to saints besides arguments from silence, and it “feeling” like worship.
@@Stigma-ba115 But are there any biblical arguments against it? Due to sola scriptura, there would need to be a biblical argument for us to know for sure it’s wrong.
A large percentage of Joe Heschmeyer's response is irrelevant. 2 Maccabees 15:12-16 is about a vision. A knowledgeable Protestant won't deny that we can speak with saints, angels, or other beings who appear to us in a context like a vision or in more ordinary circumstances (Mary's speaking with Gabriel in the context of the annunciation, John's speaking with angels in Revelation, etc.). That's a significantly different context than prayer. Similarly, Tobit 12:15 in the form in which Joe quotes it, like Revelation 5:8 and 8:4, is about the presentation of prayers before God. It doesn't follow that the angels (or saints in Revelation 5) are the ones being prayed to. Revelation 5:8 doesn't just mention elders. It also mentions the four living creatures. Are we to pray to them as well? When angels are referred to as carrying bowls of wrath (Revelation 16:2), we don't conclude that the angels therefore are the recipients of the wrath. Furthermore, when other passages in Revelation allude to the prayers of Revelation 5, the most natural implication is that the prayers were addressed to God and were asking Him for justice on earth. This is documented by Richard Bauckham in his chapter on prayer in Richard Longenecker, ed., Into God's Presence (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 2001), 252-71. As Bauckham explains, Revelation 5:8, 8:3-4, 9:13-14, and 14:18 have similar terminology and imagery. The phrase "golden bowl full" is used in both Revelation 5:8 and 15:7. It seems that the wrath described in 15:7 is in response to the prayers of the saints. In 6:9-10, we see the martyred saints asking God for justice. And the incense altar associated with the prayers of the saints in 8:3-4 is referred to again in 9:13-14 and 14:18 in connection with God's exercising justice on earth. It seems that the best explanation of the prayers in Revelation 5 and Revelation 8 is that they're prayers to God, asking for justice on earth. They aren't prayers to saints or angels. The earliest patristic commentators on Revelation 5:8 refer to the prayers in that passage as being offered to God, not to the elders. We see this in Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 4:17:6-4:18:1), Origen (Against Celsus, 8:17), and Methodius (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, 5:8), for example. And though the angel in Tobit has a lot of knowledge of events on earth, who denies that angels sometimes have that sort of knowledge, especially if they've been sent on a task that's relevant to such knowledge? It doesn't follow that we can assume that any angel we want to pray to has any knowledge that would be needed in the context of that prayer. Likewise, as Gavin explains in the video above, the account of the rich man and Lazarus is irrelevant. Communication between two individuals in the afterlife is a significantly different context than prayer from somebody on earth to somebody in heaven (or prayer to an angel while you're in this life on earth). Concerning Matthew 27:47, the bystanders are likely Roman soldiers (suggested by their not understanding what Jesus said, their being allowed to go up to the cross and offer Jesus a drink, and the parallel between Matthew 27:48 and Luke 23:36). They're portrayed as ignorant, misinformed, and unbelieving. People often suggested that Jesus did things they disapproved of (Matthew 11:19, 12:24). The bystanders could easily be attributing something to Jesus that they considered an unacceptable practice, something they thought Jews in general would reject (if the bystanders weren't Jews themselves), or something they were agnostic about. The bystanders' attempt to explain what Jesus said doesn't suggest they thought that what he said was good, a common practice, or anything like that. And Matthew doesn't indicate his approval of what they said. To the contrary, he portrays them as ignorant, misinformed, and unbelieving, as I mentioned above. At 43:14 in his second video, Joe cites section 5:19:1 in Irenaeus' Against Heresies. But go to the footnote on the passage in the version of Irenaeus' work at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library web site to see how vague the terminology is. And Eve is the person referred to by Irenaeus in connection to Mary in this context. How would Eve pray to Mary in any relevant way when Eve died before Mary came into existence? If Eve prays to Mary in some afterlife context, then that, once again, is irrelevant. Joe is making a point about a broader sort of intercession of Mary involving prayer, but the passage he cites in Irenaeus is about Eve, and it isn't about praying to Mary. Furthermore, Irenaeus' comments on prayer suggest that he believed in praying only to God. I discuss the evidence in a July 11, 2023 post titled "Did Irenaeus condemn prayer to angels?" at Triablogue. As Gavin mentions in the video above, there are multiple patristic sources in the early centuries who oppose praying to beings other than God. In addition to the examples Gavin mentioned and Irenaeus, we also have evidence for such a view in other sources. Yet, Joe repeatedly makes comments in his second video suggesting that there wasn't such opposition to praying to saints and angels. See Joe's comments at roughly 49:35 regarding how we don't see opposition to something like praying to Mary; at 54:00 about how it's "really clear that they pray to the saints, but they don't worship them"; at 58:50 about how there's "no outcry" when we do see prayer to saints in the historical record. But there are comments against praying to saints and angels among a lot of early sources, and there is opposition to such prayers expressed after such praying becomes popular later on. See the examples discussed in Matthew Dal Santo's Debating The Saints' Cult In The Age Of Gregory The Great (United Kingdom: Oxford University Press, 2012). It's one of the issues brought up by Vigilantius and the church leaders who supported him, and there's a large stream of medieval sources who opposed such prayers. One of the issues Dal Santo addresses in his book is how a belief in soul sleep among some of the sources produced "radical" (308) and "profound" (315) differences in how the cult of the saints was perceived from one source to another. So, we not only see a lot of pre-Reformation sources opposing prayer to saints and angels, but we also see significant variation in how the cult of the saints was thought to operate among those who accepted praying to the saints. Joe appeals to a lack of early evidence. But keep in mind that prayer has existed since the earliest days of human history. Joe appeals to 2 Maccabees and Tobit, which are sources of the Old Testament era, and he provided no reason to think that praying to saints (or angels) could only start happening in the New Testament era, so all of human history is relevant here. We have many thousands of pages of literature and other material from many sources over many centuries. Prayer is discussed explicitly and often, with thousands upon thousands of references to prayer to God in the Bible and the early patristic literature. Entire treatises were written on the subject of prayer. Believers write to each other about prayer, ask each other for prayer, discuss the afterlife and other subjects relevant to praying to saints and angels, etc. The idea that we have to wait until, say, the fourth century A.D. to have a significant level of knowledge of who people prayed to for thousands of years leading up to that time is absurd. Why would prayer to saints and angels just happen to keep not getting mentioned across so many sources over so many centuries, even though prayer to God keeps getting mentioned explicitly and frequently?
If we are to pray to the saints and Mary, who did the Apostles and Mary pray to? What prayers did the Apostles pass on that we are to imitate? This issue is a catch 22 to begin with and it is rather more likely that prayers to the saints was foreign to the Apostles and their immediate successors and thus a later invention.
Well I often hear talk of the transfiguration being a nudge to talking to saints passed on, as well as the great cloud of witnesses being used as an indication that we can communicate w those passed on. All those people were fm the old testament, so the apostles and Mary could have prayed to them. Including maybe Philip who seemed to die early on enough.
@@ryanharvey6375Jesus did not pray to people in heaven. During transfiguration, the old testament men appeared and saw the promise: Jssus. That's it. No apostle prayed to people in heaven. If you want to assume and choose to think it might have happened, it's ONLY an assumption. Given it's only an assumption and given it's not clearly taught...then leave it alone. Don't do the mistake as catholics do, they made this part of their doctrines. It's insane!!
@@roses993 I agree w you 😊 I like your spunk 😅 I wasn't clear when I wrote that, I meant it to respond to his comment on predessesors : there is an argument that we don't see prayers to saints among the apostles bc they had no predessesors to pray to, but if Catholics count the transfiguration as Jesus talking to saints, then old testament saints would count as predessesors to pray to. but there are no examples of prayers among the apostles to anyone besides the Father (ex. no prayers to Moses or Elijah). Also we might even see a prayer to Philip and maybe Mary if they passed on before the Epistles were written, but idk if they did. Anyway no one in the new or old testament writings made a prayer to, or talked to, those who passed on besides Saul and Jesus. That I know of.
Whenever I think about this topic I immediately think of King David and the Psalms. The Psalms generally read like prayers to me. Not once does David plead with or exalt anyone other than the God. I think that if we could expect to see prayers or requests to angels anywhere in the Bible it would be in Psalms or Job for that matter. I know this is technically and argument from silence but idk this is where my mind always goes.
@patriceagulu8315 I think that interpretation is either ignorant or intellectually dishonest. Can you give me chapter and verse where David is worshipping Solomon in the same way he would worship God? There are plenty of instances in the Bible and in real life if people “praising” each other, whether it be due to gratitude or acknowledgement or good leadership. I don’t think the two are comparable at all.
@patriceagulu8315 this guy is something else…literally commenting on everyone’s comments from this video with pure ignorance…totally a troll. Time to move one man. You’ve been found out!
@patriceagulu8315 Psaltery to the Blessed Virgin Mary, which has mostly been replaced by PRAYING THE ROSARY now. Except this Psalter, full of prayers to Mary is available on a Catholic app. We all know the psalms are prayers, and these are psalms to Mary, giving her the virtues and powers of God, and also the praise that is always denied she gets, which is due only to God: PSALM 15 Preserve me, O Lady, for I have hoped in thee: do thou bestow on me the dew of thy grace. Thy virginal womb has begotten the Son of the Most High. Blessed be thy breasts, by which thou hast nourished the Savior with deific milk. Let us give praise to the glorious Virgin: whosoever ye be that have found grace and mercy through her. Give glory to her name: and praise forever her conception and her birth. Glory be to the Father
Thank you for always engaging with Catholics and doing it so charitably. I'd love to see a flowering of Protestant and Catholic apologetics online if it happens with such loving and thoughtful disposition. Our Lord is benefited by his followers coming together even when our differences are so serious and consequential. Love and prayers ❤️🙏
I'm told that's not enough. We Should be praying to saints and esp. worshiping Mary, Catholics keep telling me, or I don't have the fullness of the faith. Of course it's never admitted it's worship, even when it clearly is.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 in 1920 the Catholic Church proclaimed Jean of Arc a Saint, in heaven, alive in the realm of God, taking part of his Glory; alive, alive
I watched some of the videos and I was very aware of how Joe misrepresented you and almost seemed to scoff at you. I read the comments made by his followers and many of them did accuse you of being a liar. So I am glad you have now responded. Trouble is most of his followers won’t even watch this. Obviously I am a Protestant and I wrote many responses to the comments his followers made - especially regarding the one about praying to the saints being pagan and the one before that about devotion to the saints getting in the way of focusing on Jesus. I feel that I may as well have been speaking to a stone wall! They are totally dedicated to Mary and the saints - and only God by His grace can change their minds. But we have to speak out as we are told to defend the faith. We can only pray for them that they will come to a knowledge of the truth by God’s grace. K
@patriceagulu The Reformers and classical Protestants believed that too. They thought that the Church could pick up some errant practices and doctrines without fully falling away from the Faith and that it was still the Church established by Christ, but they just wanted to reform it in the spirit that Josiah reformed Judah. Completely different from the “Great Apostasy” idea from SDA’s and Mormons, who would be more likely to fall into the group you’re talking about.
Please explain your question in relation to my comment? No the gates of hell will not prevail against the church because it is instituted by Jesus Christ the rock. he is the cornerstone and the only foundation. It is founded upon the Gospel of God. The church is made up of living stones - born of God and chosen by Him before the creation of the world for whom Jesus died. Jesus Christ is the head of the church - no one else - and the saved ones are the body. The body of Christ. If you disagree with any of this then you need to read your Bible carefully. I am only repeating what the Bible says. And I am not your Bro. I am female and have been signing my comments with a K. As per the Kay in the address. @patriceagulu8315
@patriceagulu8315Oh? Do you believe that there are 100+ Catholic denominations? Which one is the true one? This question would be incomprehensible to Catholics. Yet they would have to believe such if they cite that number. The number you cited comes from a sociological study that defines denominations such that a single denomination that is present in 2+ countries is 2+ denominations even if they are organisationally connected. The real number of denominations is orders of magnitude less, and many denominations believe that others outside their own church are valid churches. The number also includes many sects that may claim to be christian but both of us would deny the title (eg JWs or Mormons). All in all, please do not appeal to that number to make your point. If you want to make a point about protestant disunity, that point would still be made by a more accurate number. (If complete christian denominational unity was considered to be of the utmost importance even 2 denominations would be terrible.) I don't know how many denominations there are because I don't particularly care. If you want more information I recommend the video that Ready to Harvest made on the topic.
@patriceagulu8315 All Christian churches have the core truth. What Gavin would call First Rank issues. There are many groups within the one church that is the body consisting of all belivers. (There is no church where all of their members are saved and no church that contains all who are saved.) I believe that catholics who pray to saints are brothers in christ although I don't see the point. But, I would not be comfortable in a church that practiced prayer to saints as part of the liturgy. Therefore both churches that include prayers to saints and those that exclude are true churches. Judah and Israel were both God's chosen people despite their division.
@patriceagulu8315 before I can give an answer I need to know: Do you think protestants are christian? If the answer is no then there is no point discussing further.
“Pray to God alone”. Amen! People do what they want to do and disregard the will of God. Just because other people do it doesn’t mean you have to do it. Ask God for discernment…praying to anyone other than God is a dishonor to our creator.
Honoring the saints honors God according to the Psalmist. “God is wonderful in his saints: the God of Israel is he who will give power and strength to his people. Blessed be God.” (Psa 67:36, DRC) It is zero sum thinking to assume that asking for intercession from and giving honor to the saints diminishes adoration for God and precludes participation in the unbloody sacrifice of Malachi 1:11 which is reserved to God alone. Taken to its conclusion this line of thinking would lead to the gnostic belief that creation is bad and furthermore that God could not receive or deserve glory for his wondrous works. Thankfully, the Psalmist corrects this false notion. “The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands.” (Psa 18:2, DRC) “How great are thy works, O Lord ? thou hast made all things in wisdom: the earth is filled with thy riches.” (Psa 103:24, DRC)
They get around that one by claiming they are simply asking for prayer, as they would ask you for prayer. Yet they admit that they think prayers of saints carry much more weight w/ God and our piddly prayers are weak. I've heard them use, "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much", ad nauseum. They don't understand that we are the righteous man, or that we the living Christians, are the saints.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Clearly Job shows some prayers are more effective. “Take unto you therefore seven oxen and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust, and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath.” (Job 42:8, DRC) If Job is just, how much more just are those in the kingdom of heaven where they are like the angels? “Amen I say to you, there hath not risen among them that are born of women a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is the lesser in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” (Mat 11:11, DRC) “Neither can they die any more for they are equal to the angels and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” (Luk 20:36, DRC) Why do you have such a low view of the saints? Do you not know: “God is wonderful in his saints: the God of Israel is he who will give power and strength to his people. Blessed be God.” (Psa 67:36, DRC)
@@StanleyPinchak We are the saints who are called to pray for one another. If the saints in heaven can pray and intercede for us, why was God looking for someone here on earth to intercede or stand in the gap in Ezekiel 22:30. Also, it is clear in the Bible that believers in Jesus Christ are the saints. And yes, many of those believers are in heaven but God didn’t ask us nor Jesus said to pray to them. Jesus clearly said to pray to the Father.
In regards to prayers to the saints - there are over 2000 prayers to the saints etched into the catacombs and intercessory prayer to the Saints is found in all of the early liturgies. Are we really to believe that these things were added into the fabric of Christian belief and not actually long-standing practice once the liturgies were formalized? In that regard it seems highly improbable that prayer to the saints was a pagan practice that somehow crept into Christian faith and worship. Indeed EVERY Church that has an organic connection to Christ (eg: the orthodox, orientals, Coptic and Catholic) through apostolic succession and the laying on of hands embrace the practice. Just seems improbable that these churches got it wrong - especially when one considers that these were the same Christian’s being fed to the Lions for their faith (at least the Christian’s who were writing these prayers in the Catacombs).
I am trying to be a charitable as you towards catholic apologists but man I have tried to watch dozens of videos they put out and I am to the point that they are being disingenuous.
My interest in Catholic apologetics was sparked many years ago when I heard one of them on the radio. This guy obviously knew a great deal more than I did, so that got me to read all the major apologists. Something about their arguments didn't sit right with me, but I held out the possibility that I was wrong and they were right, and one day I would see they were right. That day never came.
I watched Joe's last reply on this, the whole hour and a half, and watched it twice. I've always wanted to know how Catholics justify praying to saints and esp. Mary. Even w/ the apocryphal scriptures of Macabees and Tobit, it still didn't make sense. Macabees is a dream and says a saint, or righteous departed man is praying for them. Tobit talks about angels and is said to back the scriptures in Revelation, where the angel is collecting the prayers of the saints as incense. The prayers of the saints are our prayers, as far as the bible ever states. It's an angel collecting them, not us praying to saints in heaven for wishes to be granted, or passed on to God.
@joeoleary9010 that's basically my experience. They are smart people but they always commit to really suspicious arguments that typically involve something like strawman or conflating unrelated theological issues and I just see it time and time again.
@@joeoleary9010 I spent a lot of time w/ Catholic sources, and still do. Like watching Joe's channel, esp. this debate. I prayed, and was open to where ever the Lord led me. It's not that I think our side isn't a hot mess to, but I could not attest to the doctrines of the RCC. We don't have a choice either, esp. w/ Marian dogmas, we have to agree that we believe them all to be a member. I became more convinced from CAtholic sources, than getting info second hand from protestant ones, that there is major error accrued through the centuries.
Hey Gavin, I really think you should make a video addressing the claim by Catholics that the entire church fathers were Roman Catholic, it’s a really popular claim among Catholics and I’ve never seen a protestant apologist really tackle that claim.Highly recommended for later!!
@@jasminemariedarling Yeah, that's the lofty claim of Catholics, who claim all of Christiandom from the very time of the apostles, even though the bible says differently. The RCC church wasn't in full swing until at least the 4th century. By the time of the reformers, it was mostly Catholicism, simply because the RCC had gained all the power and any protestant sects were hunted down and killed. The only reason the reformation happened is because God willed it and the invention of the printing press enabled it. The RCC lost it's stranglehold on Christianity, through the might of the sword and merger of church and state.
@@MrKingishere1 It's not just the church fathers who were all Catholic, the bible is Catholic, not only compiled it, they wrote it I'm told. The apostles were also Catholic and Jesus instituted the Catholic church from day one when he handed the keys to Peter. I've heard it all. It's all Catholic, every last bit of it. Not only that, it's a perfect church, w/ all authority, w/out any error in doctrine and infallible. So there's all that to address to. I've never seen a prouder sect of Christianity, except maybe the Orthodox, who don't recognize us as Christians at all, because we don't adhere to their sacred traditions. Jesus doesn't save, his word isn't transformative in regenerating us through the renewing of the word, and we can't interpret the bible bible on our own anyways. We need their church to do it for us (remember the all authority part).
@@saintejeannedarc9460 😂🤣🤣 bunch of claims and no evidence. That’s as silly as a Muslim claiming Jesus and the other prophets were Muslim. Get out of here with that nonsense bro. You’re not worth any attention as I don’t take you seriously. Jesus and the apostles would absolutely rebuke the Catholic Church today. IT WOULD BE REALLY BAD AND HUMILIATING FOR YOU GUYS
I appreciate your desire to practice good faith with your interlocutors, but I would not give Joe a pass next time if he continues to misrepresent you and the historical data in future response videos. These apologists are all adults who have chosen to engage in these debates and who need to be held to the same high standard of research and preparation before they record these videos. They should not be let off the hook for poor scholarship, logical fallacies and bad faith arguments.
Joe just put out a rebuttal video, I recommend it. He does a nice job of correcting Gavin’s errors about Origen, and showing that he did not misrepresent Gavin.
Thanks Dr. Ortlund! I think what you said at the end of your video about “prayer matters and who you pray to matters!”. Never thought about that all the prayer examples provided in Old and New Testament are directed to God alone. Beautiful! 🙏🙌
@patriceagulu8315 go watch his videos on cannon and why that book is not included. Also if your argument was that one of 66+ texts is the only one with such evidence then my point still stands.
@patriceagulu8315 once again, I point you back to his videos on canon. Also, if you are looking for a debate bro, go some place else. This is not the platform to do it. I won’t change my mind and you won’t change yours either while going back and forth with half strung sentences and arguments. Watch more of his videos on make a decision for yourself 😃
As a Presbyterian who is considering Catholicism I’ve really appreciated your work Gavin! I believe you’re very knowledgeable, articulate and sincere and it’s rly disheartening to see misunderstandings and misrepresentations from both sides which is part of the reason I really appreciate folks like you who genuinely examine and try to understand the “other side”. Thanks!
You should be looking into being a Christian, not looking at all the false religions like Calvinism and Roman Catholicism. Just read the Bible and believe what it says plainly. 🙏 ❤️
Gavin thank you so much not only for making this response to clarify the completely incorrect views that Joe was putting into both your and Origen's mouths, but even more so for the spirit you do it in. I think a lot of people would just start name calling and pointing angry fingers after being treated the way you have been here - and not for the first time here either. But instead of responding with what most would believe is justifiable anger at what you could have easily called slander you modeled Christian compassion, and love by assuming no ill intent. It's because of this that I think your efforts have a real and tangible impact on drawing Christians of different denominations together, rather than digging the trenches that separate them even deeper. You pursue truth and even when confronted with - what could very well be accidental - lies being told about you and your views, you're still behaving with grace and compassion. God bless you for that, and all the work you do. May it continue to knit people closer to Christ, and each other.
I am catholic. And i really appiciate you Gavin. Your attitude is so refresing. Dont take things to personal. You have good intentions and everybody knows it. I dissagree with uou. But thats allowed. And my believes doesnt say anything about your intensions. Keep up the great work.
Pastor Ortlund, you are being very kind and generous to state that the misrepresentation of your positions by Mr. Heschmeyer you do not believe to be intentional.
@theRockSalter I can handle people disagreeing with my personal views or political views or my views on which car is better. I don't take it personally. It's not like he is saying I suck personally.
@@TruthUnites @9:19 you're okay with saying Mary "caused" salvation? Amen! She played an instrumental role in the incarnation. Why can she not then also be an instrumental role in bringing hope, peace, ect? If she can instrumentally bring us the Son of God alone, why can she not be an instrument in these other expressions of honor.
Catholics don't seem to grasp the difference between asking for the intercession of saints on earth whom you can contact by natural means, and trying to contact saints who have died. The assumption that saints in heaven can hear us is ascribing to them a supernatural breadth of knowledge and ability that, as far as we know, belongs only to God.
They literally surround us. “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,” (Heb 12:1, KJVA) And even if the saints themselves are out of ear shot there are tens of thousands of angels, certainly there is one that can relay the message. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?” (Heb 1:14, KJVA)
Of course The Saints can hear our prayers and intercede for us. Revelation shows us Saints who have passed on helping those on earth through their prayers. There’s been innumerable cases of Saints responding to and helping The Faithful throughout Church History.
This is a passage that can get overlooked in this discussion. And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly loved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for now I have been sent to you.” And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up trembling. Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come.” Daniel 10:11-14 ESV The passage explains that the angel Gabriel was sent to Daniel because of Daniel's visions and prayers to God. What also can be concluded is that the angels are not omnipresent, as Gabriel says that he had to wait 21 days to go see Daniel. Therefore, the only way for an angel or saint in heaven to hear the prayers is through God. This is a clear example of a ministering spirit as described in Hebrews 1:14. They do surround us and help minister to us, but to say that Hebrews 1:14 is teaching that angels can hear everybody's prayers similatanously on their own is adding to the text.
@@MrWesford A clear command or example from the Apostles would help. I don't doubt that the saints in heaven are employed in praying for us. That they have the ability to hear millions of supplicants on earth suggests that they possess a godlike ability. Of course God could give them that ability, or He could have His angels tell them what they need to intercede about. But all of this is sheer speculation without a hint of a command or an example from Scripture, and as in so many other cases, the Catholic Church has elevated pious speculation to the status of mandatory, non-negotiable doctrine on her own authority. The "countless examples through history" carry no weight whatsoever. There have been superstitions and delusions throughout history that carried their own tales of success, plausible or otherwise. We need a clear command from Christ or His Apostles. And that's not even to start on the dangers of habitually praying to beings other than the One Whom Christ commanded us to.
This makes SO MUCH SENSE! It doesn’t tangle anything anyone says about prayer. It is crystal clear what Origen is saying re: prayer. No acrobatics, no twisty turns, no misrepresentation. I appreciate that.
Joe has a new rebuttal and the acrobatics are in full swing. I haven't gotten all the way through it, but he still maintains that Origin prayed to saints. Apparently prayer comes in 4 different kinds and only one kind goes to God alone. This is the argument he's making about Origen's teaching so far.
It would be nice if it were that easy, but it's not. I recommend watching Joe Heschemyer's rebuttal video he posted today entitled "Why Origen Believed in Intercessory Prayer to the Saints" on his Shameless Popery channel. St. Mary, undoer of knots, please pray for us!
Gavin, many in these comments laud the “good faith” discussion between you and your interlocutors. But swipes like the one Joe takes in his message really stick with me. “Gavin says…but *real* scholars say…” is remarkably dismissive of the time, money, and intellectual investment you’ve made into glorifying God as a scholar. It really rubs me the wrong way, and I just want to say that I am remarkably impressed with your charity. I know my own sin, and I know the cockiness I can conduct myself with when I feel misrepresented. I thank you for your example, and pray that the Lord continue to keep you from retaliation against these unnecessary insults.
As iron sharpens iron. It was a backhand jab and I don't think Gavin is too stuck on himself that he can't handle cultivating an extra helping of humility. It doesn't look bad on Gavin, it looks bad on Joe when digs like that happen. I'm far more concerned w/ the Mary worship. Joe ignored the over the top Marian prayers that Gavin raised, because these are never a problem for Catholics. I looked up the Psalteries of the Blessed Virgin Mary, that Gavin mentioned in his first video on this (a year ago). I wish he had shown examples of some of these rewritten psalms to Mary, becasue they made the other prayers seem tame. It would have shown that the CAtholic excuse of only venerating her w/ hyper dulia is not the case. There is clear and open worship, and every attribute given to God is given to Mary in these blasphemous psalters.
Not only is it the saints praying for us and not the reverse, it also doesn't say the saints pray TO us. Like if Paul was praying and asking me to help him with something, he is going to be extremely disappointed.
Um. Ok, something is bothering me about one of the Origen quotes discussed in the video… and it’s concerning salvation. At around minute 24, the quote shown says, “for they see demons warring and fighting most keenly against the salvation of those who devote themselves to God,” ……. Um… does this mean Origen believed salvation could be lost? 😳
So according to Catholics, we pray to the saints so that they intercede to God on our behalf but the only way they can hear our prayer requests is if God reveals our prayers to them. What kind of convuluted bureaucractic system is this?
I think some believe that the saints can omnisciently or supernaturally hear our prayers in some way... which I find just as detestable in the way that it, without good evidence, elevates the saints well beyond what is indicated of them.
@@skyorrichegg Evidence 1) speaking of the angels: “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?” (Heb 1:14, KJVA) Evidence 2 Jesus claim for those in the kingdom: “Neither can they die any more for they are equal to the angels and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” (Luk 20:36, DRC) If the dead in Christ are equal to the angels and the angels are ministering spirits to us Christians on earth, then are not the saints afforded the same ability to minister to us? In doing so they fulfill Jesus command: “A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” (Joh 13:34, DRC) And “Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.” (Jam 5:16, DRC)
@@StanleyPinchak Using those verses as a connection for an accretion like praying to the saints is quite the stretch in my opinion. Pray for one another, not to one another to get them to pray for you in heaven. Once again, I think it is fine if the saints are praying for us in heaven, if I am able to I will when I am heaven, but it is QUITE the theological stretch to stretch that to praying to those saints in heaven to get them to pray for us.
It's God's system. Don't be too critical or you will undercut praying in general. Jesus said God already knows your needs before you ask. Based on a worldly view it sounds like all prayer is completely unnecessary. Yet God wants prayers even when they don't make sense to us. I can say the same for the book of Job. Why did God specifically request prayers from Job over the other gentlemen? In short God knows everything so your complaint about asking Saints for prayer really undercuts all prayer.
Dr. Ortlund...I have noticed a more aggressive tone toward u among Catholics u have dialogued with in the past such as Joe. The foundation of ur efforts is to seek and spread the truth of the gospel. The foundation of the effort of Catholics is to support the Catholic church, which results in a form od disingenuousness, whether consciously or unconsciously. I understand u may disagree with me given ur comments about acccusing someone of being disingenuous. But the reality is, the more effective u r at spreading the truth of the gospel and revealing errors of the Catholic church, the more aggressive (and potentially disingenuous) the responses will be. U r doing a fantastic job and u r a true blessing to so many. Don't be discouraged. Keep up the fight. U r making an impact on the lives and salvation of so many. U r in my prayers.
Don't judge all Catholics just on the basis of a few. Also, be aware some so called Catholic UA-cam channels are not exactly Catholic as they claimed to be. I am not a fan of Michael Lofton at all. He can't even have a civil discourse with other Catholics who disagree with his own claims. Honestly I would love to see a debate with Dr Ortlund and Brother Dimond who is a sedevacantist. That would be really interesting!!
I think that Gavin Ortlund is growing in popularity right now hence the more aggressive response from Catholic apologists. Trent Horn himself has experienced the same sort of tone
Perhaps the more aggressive tone is the result of Gavin claiming that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians adopted pagan and gnostic practices. Such scandalous and offensive claims deserve scrutiny and serious responses
@@HumanDignity10 They're hostile to him but can't refute his position. I see. You also are emotional. Refute his position then. Was he lying or not?? I hate it when people are loyal to traditions than they're loyal to God. You're the Pharisees that Jesus was talking to when he said they made the word of God of no effect by holding to their man made doctrine. Are your doctrine what the early Christians practiced or not?? "Those scandalous and offensive claims deserve scrutiny and serious response." Where are the responses that are serious?? Just ad hominems and misrepresentations. The Roman Catholics has not foundation to stand on. The church history goes against them
Catholic apologetics is really a mess. I've been following all the major professional Catholic apologists since I began re-examining the church I grew up in but didn't know much about. After a great deal of research, I've found that many of them are very disingenuous about the facts when they present Catholic teachings and history. These apologists use a lot of clever arguments and appeals to authority (Matt 16:18 is key to all their arguments), and often a great deal of doublespeak. For example, just yesterday I saw a video where a Catholic apologist, a priest no less, declared that confession to a priest isn't necessary for the forgiveness of sins, because "God can do anything." This view is nowhere found in Catholic teaching and is in fact directly contradicted by the official RCC catechism. These Catholic apologists will never admit the church was wrong about anything but will bend and stretch what good faith Christians like Gavin might say and declare it error. Never believe any apologist -- always do your own research.
Actually, the priest was correct, as confession is not required for the forgiveness of venial sins. It's mortal sins, that dull our minds and blind us to the Truth, which must be confessed through a priest.
The doctrine of the intercession of the saints is as "late" as the doctrine of the Trinity or the canon. The truth is that it is a practice deeply rooted in the apostolic Churches, tested by centuries of persecution and martyrdom and by the real experience of the community of intercessory prayer between those Saints who have died and those who were about to be killed. It expresses a communitarian vision of the Church that death cannot destroy and that unites the militant Church with the triumphant Church in the Body of Christ. Intercessory prayer takes place in Christ, by Christ and through Christ, the one who opened the gates of heaven to us and, in the transfiguration, showed us something of the cloud of witnesses and of the assembly of faithful and perfected spirits to which we have access. In the end, everything comes from Christ and goes to Christ, we can never forget that. In Mary's case, it is possible and understandable that there are exaggerations here and there. Mary is Mother of God (of Jesus in whom the fullness of divinity dwells) and Mother of the Church, that is, of all who follow him. Who has never exaggerated when praising their mother?
The difference is that the trinity is clearly expressed in the Bible. Prayer to the saints is not and is an accretion. Paul would lose his mind. Also theotokos really means “God-Bearer”, not mother of God. It was changed to mother of God later on. God-Bearer points to Christ and His humanity, it glorifies Christ, has nothing to do with Mary, at least not originally.
Advocates of praying to saints and angels occasionally suggest that people like Origen were only criticizing offering a higher form of prayer to created beings, whereas it was acceptable to offer them a lower form of prayer. But the burden of proof is on the shoulders of those who want us to accept that view. Origen generally just uses a term like "pray" or "prayer" without further qualification, which suggests that he didn't have the relevant sort of qualified sense in mind. He makes a distinction between how we should pray "more" to the Father than to the Son (Against Celsus, 5:11). Henry Chadwick's rendering of the closing sentence of section 5:4 of Against Celsus has Origen writing, "We will even make our petitions to the very Logos himself and offer intercession to him and give thanks and also pray to him, if we are capable of a clear understanding of the absolute and the relative sense of prayer." (Origen: Contra Celsum [New York, New York: Cambridge University Press, 2003], 266) We make that kind of distinction between praying to the Father and praying to the Son when interpreting Origen because Origen tells us that he held that view. By contrast, we haven't been given any evidence that he believed in some other form of prayer to be offered to saints and angels. To the contrary, when responding to Celsus' criticism of Christians for not praying to angels, Origen doesn't respond by explaining that they do pray to angels with a form of prayer that's lesser than the form offered to God. Rather, he just denies that Christians pray to angels (and other created beings). And these principles I've applied to Origen can be applied to other sources as well. It's not as though it's just a higher form of prayer to saints and angels that's absent in scripture and the earlier patristic sources. Rather, there isn't a lower form of prayer to saints and angels either. And the Biblical and extrabiblical condemnations of attempting to contact the deceased and praying to angels don't add any qualifiers to the effect that it's only wrong to pray to them in a higher sense, whereas we can pray to them in a lesser sense. Instead, the evidence suggests that in the context Protestants and Catholics are focused on, the relevant Biblical and extrabiblical sources only prayed to God.
Origen explicitly makes this differentiation, it’s not an assumption. “Yet if we are offer thanksgiving to men who are saints, how much more should we give thanks to Christ, who has under the Father's will conferred so many benefactions upon us? Yes and intercede with Him as did Stephen when he said, "Lord, set not this sin against them." In imitation of the father of the lunatic we shall say, "I request, Lord, have mercy" either on my son, or myself, or as the case may be. But if we accept prayer in its FULL MEANING, we may not ever pray to any begotten being, not even to Christ himself, but only to the God and Father of All to whom our Savior both prayed himself, as we have already instanced, and teaches us to pray.” -Origen of Alexandria, On Prayer 10, emphasis mine
@@bman5257 Gavin's video cites the phrase you've highlighted, and I cited other material in Origen in which he distinguishes between types of prayer. That's not the issue. Rather, the issue is whether he makes a distinction that supports the practice of praying to saints and angels. Nothing in the passage you've cited does that. As I explained in my post above, it's not enough to argue that Origen differentiated between types of prayer. You have to demonstrate that he differentiated between types in a way that supports praying to saints and angels. But maybe you highlighted the wrong words in your quote. Maybe you meant to emphasize Origen's opening comments about giving thanks to saints. If so, you're taking him out of context. As the sentences just before what you quoted demonstrate, Origen was addressing interactions with people on earth, "intercession and thanksgiving, not only to saintly men but also to others". That's not prayer in any relevant sense. If two people on earth have a conversation, involving thanksgiving or whatever else, that isn't the sort of prayer Protestants and Catholics have in mind when they debate this subject.
This is a common and honestly extremely irritating argument that Catholics tend to make with doctrine. They know that many of their practices seem to be very idolatrous on the face of it and go expressly against scripture, so to get around this, they subcategorize all these concepts so they can get around it being a sin. So it's basically like "oh, there are different types of prayer, there are different types of worship, there are different types of sins, there are different types of x. It's the apologetic equivalent of "Yes, but actually no". They say it's just nuance, which is a fine, but the problem is you can nuance your way into justifying anything. "Oh, you say me stealing this money is a sin? Well, actually, there are many types of procuring property without the concent of the owner, and not all of them are sinful, duh!
Prayer had a much wider meaning pre-Reformation, though. For you to say “that’s not prayer in any relevant sense” is exactly why this is a non-issue and why Catholics have started saying “We ask the saints to pray for us” rather than we “pray to the saints” -- it accommodates the evolution of the English language and what we intend when we do it. If anything, the issue is not us asking for intercession of the saints per se, but whether or not our requests are made known to them through the Logos.
St. Augustine, who was there at Hippo and Carthage when the Church, Catholic Bishops meeting in snyods, decided (declared) the canon of scripture. The martyrs only know our prayers through the power of God, offerings made to God in the name of Peter, Paul (and those Saints who have died; Rev 5:8, 8:3) “As to our paying honor to the memory of the martyrs, and the accusation of Faustus, that we worship them instead of idols, I should not care to answer such a charge, were it not for the sake of showing how Faustus, in his desire to cast reproach on us, has overstepped the Manichaean inventions, and has fallen heedlessly into a popular notion found in Pagan poetry, although he is so anxious to be distinguished from the Pagans. For in saying that we have turned the idols into martyrs, be speaks of our worshipping them with similar rites, and appeasing the shades of the departed with wine and food… *It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers.* But we build altars not to any martyr, but to the God of martyrs, although it is to the memory of the martyrs. No one officiating at the altar in the saints’ burying-place ever says, We bring an offering to thee, O Peter! or O Paul! or O Cyprian! The offering is made to God, who gave the crown of martyrdom, while it is in memory of those thus crowned. The emotion is increased by the associations of the place, and. love is excited both towards those who are our examples, and towards Him by whose help we may follow such examples. We regard the martyrs with the same affectionate intimacy that we feel towards holy men of God in this life, when we know that their hearts are prepared to endure the same suffering for the truth of the gospel. There is more devotion in our feeling towards the martyrs, because we know that their conflict is over; and we can speak with greater confidence in praise of those already victors in heaven, than of those still combating here.” Augustine, Against Faustus, 20:21 (A.D. 400).
You don't understand their hostility because you're a genuinely nice guy as well as very well informed. People who depend upon deception to keep doing what they're doing are often very hostile toward anyone who speaks the truth. Contrary to your channel name, lol - Truth also tends to expose the baddies among us, and it should.
I see this kind of argument a lot from both Catholics and Protestants, but “you’re being hostile (upset, etc) so your position is wrong” is a non sequitur. People are also hostile when they hear what they perceive to be lies
@@michaelharrington6698of course intellectually honesty and common decency is something that people like you and Joe who are blinded by ideology cannot emulate.
I might be one of the people Gavin is viewing as "hostile" because I wrote about how I have come to doubt Ortlund's work after I read the book "Mary in Early Christian Faith and Devotion" by Stephen Shoemaker, which is a book Gavin references in a previous video on the Assumption of Mary. I have read the entire book and I think Gavin misrepresents many things in that book and he cherry picked quotes to favor his view. I don't know if it was intentional, but it was quite upsetting for me to see how egregiously he misrepresented what is in that book. I have seen posts from Gavin where he invites people to question his scholarship, yet when they actually do it, he seems to get offended.
Joe just released another video, "Proving that the Saints in Heaven Hear Our Prayer". I don't think he proves this, but it doesn't matter. Catholics will always pray to saints because their church tradition has taught it for a long time. It definitely wasn't taught from the beginning, or we would see some scriptural precedence for it, and we don't. We have a different understanding of who the prayers of the saints are that the angel releases, in Revelation. They are our prayers, the living saints, and the bible is always addressing the living Christians when it talks of saints. So protestants don't pray to saints, because we do believe in the foundation of the apostles and how they taught the church. They did not do or teach this practice. It became a practice several centuries after the church was established. It's a tradition, and one that we don't follow. Let all be blessed and do all to the glory of God and the benefit of those who struggle in this world.
One of the things I appreciate the most about your work here is that along with your pastor’s heart you bring a scholar’s discernment and breadth of study to popular conversations. We need much more of that all around. Many of the other apologists, both Catholic and Protestant, just don’t bring that.
I'm sorry Gavin but Mary is NOTthe cause of salvation. God is. "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things" Romans 11 vs 36 God chose and blessed a woman through whom he birthed His Son into the world. She was the agent through whom Jesus by human birth came into the world. A postman's role is not to write the letter but to deliver it. Mary deliverd the Saviour but she was not the cause of salvation. "Salvation comes from God" (Jonah 2 vs. 8)
I would be curious for him to explain his comment there further as well. I seriously, seriously doubt that he views Mary as co-redemptrix with Christ and that that is not what he is agreeing with when he agrees with Irenaeus that Mary was "the cause of our salvation" but rather it is simply what he said: that Mary was the cause of our salvation in being the human agent through which Jesus incarnated. In that sense God is still the ultimate cause of our salvation in choosing Mary as that woman through whom Jesus would be born, but there is still a sense in which Mary is the cause, just not the ultimate cause, which, as in all things, is always God. In the same sense I could say my father's testimony to me was the cause of my salvation, but obviously that pales in comparison to the ultimate cause of the grace of God that spoke to me through my father's testimony and transformed my heart into a heart that could hear and receive the Gospel, but it is pretty ridiculous to just gloss over my father being used as a vehicle of God's grace to me, just as we should continue to spread the Gospel to all we can.
@@skyorrichegg Mary was simply as you say the vehicle and as such was greatly blessed and privileged but she did not cause salvation. God chose her and he used her as a vehicle. If a person has a very important work to do somewhere he may catch a train to get there and on his arrival get going on unfolding his plan. . But the train did not set up that plan. That was already done before he caught the train. The train had no causal effect in relation to the man's work other than to get him there. Jesus said how important words are and discussions like this bear out that truth. Otherwise truth can be obscured and/or sent in the wrong direction. I can only repeat that scripture from Romans "From Him and for Him and to Him are all things"
Do you believe there is a substantive difference between asking my wife/Christian brother to pray for me and Praying to God? Would you grant to the Catholics that same distinction between asking the saints’ to pray for them and Prayers to God?
You should adopt Trent Horn’s rebuttal rule. I haven’t gotten into your rebuttal yet but I have a feeling it’s going to get confusing with you rebutting his rebuttal of you 😅
It seems crazy that believers would step around (God's gift) the Holy Spirit and plead to a mere mortal for help. To me, it's similar to God giving His commandments and the elders 'tweaking' it for Him.
We don't sidestep the Holy Spirit. We cross ourselves at the begging of each prayer and say "In the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." We also have longer, formal prayers to the Holy Spirit and include the Holy Spirit in our creed. We have the ability to both worship God and honor saints. Regarding "asking mere mortals for help", I do that all the time. Today I asked my husband to help me read some small numbers on a prescription because my eyesight is getting worse. It's hubris not to ask mere mortals for help.
5:42 Why would a Roman Catholic historian make any kind of judgement on how good or bad Eucharistic devotion was? Can you provide a quote from one? And are they claiming that all Eucharistic devotion at that time was bad? And in what way was it bad? You mention the bread and the wine - so they are talking about the practice of only providing communion under one species? How is that an example of an excess? Catholics continue this practice to this day. And with regard to frequency, Catholics are only required to receive communion once a year, even today! And you mentioned superstition - what superstition? Then, for some reason, you say this totally misses the point - that there are these prayers that go too far. This is perplexing, because it seems that this shows you didn't actually listen to Joe's video. Because that was not his response to your point at all. He compares some of these prayers that use excessively flowery language to love letters. And that we are not to just compare the poetic language like they display to actual statements of theology. You seem to miss this point altogether. And yes, this is a little bit of a concession in this point, that some of the language goes to far. But that there are some excesses does not negate or invalidate any of the other legitimate prayers to Mary. You are pointing at the exceptions and making them the rule. Then using this as a cudgel to beat Catholics over the head with about not praying to the saints.
Thank you for covering this topic! It's a very important issue that needs to be addressed. You did an excellent job of fully covering Origen's teachings on the matter. It's no doubt that he believed that prayer was to be given to God alone.
You had a great comment in here about the angel in Daniel being delayed and how even angels aren't omnipotent. I tried to reply to it, but I think it got filtered out or deleted somehow. Which is so unfortunate, because it's so relevant. I'll pop the reply I tried to make to it here. I was just thinking of this very set of scriptures, about how angels are also not omnipresent, but can be delayed. The Catholic argument would of course be the glorified saints and esp. Mary are above the angels and have better powers. Except the scriptures say, "man is made a little lower than the angels". I'm sure they have a workaround for that as well, but it's good enough for me. Let's take Mary, who is the object of incredible hyper veneration and would be bombarded w/ millions of prayers every day. Somehow, she can assimilate all that, just like God can. She can keep them all straight, then pass them to God on our behalf. Something else I was just pondering is when Gavin in his original video mentioned the Psaltery of the Blessed Virgin Mary, to look it up. He cited some very venerating prayers, but these Marian psalms are like nothing I've ever seen. I kind of wish I hadn't looked them up. The psaltery was the precurser to the rosary, but it's available as a CAtholic app now, so still in circulation and still being prayed to Mary, giving her every attribute of God and even saying her breasts had "deific milk".
@@saintejeannedarc9460 I just did. Please read and comment. I tried to get all the main points back in. Let me know if it's lacking anything from the original.
Philippians 4:6-7 NKJV Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. - Here we have clear instruction to pray to God.
There are many scriptures that clearly tell us to pray to God. Jesus gave us a model of how to pray, and it was to God and not to saints. The apostles talked of prayer, and instructed us to pray for one another, and to pray for them in their ministry. Never did the apostles teach to pray to departed saints either. It doesn't matter. CAtholics love the idea of doing it. Their church teaches it, it's their tradition and they are crazy about the idea of it. They have no clear scripture. Just a bit of very obscure, maybe kinda sorta, but they pry it out of these murky scriptures anyway and claim it's in the bible. Mostly they do it out of tradition. These traditions were modeled after paganism, but they get upset at that.
@@chrisazure1624 They could easily argue that Mary was still alive then, so Jesus wouldn't have used that example. He didn't model praying to any other saints either though.
@fantasia55 so catholics wrote the New Testament?. Lol, ok. Nowhere in the NT does it say to pray to saints. The Old Testament actually prohibited the living from talking to the dead. It is known that many pagan practices made their way into the Roman church.
There are others that were looking for Gavin's original video that Joe (on the Shameless Popery) is replying to, so here is the link: ua-cam.com/video/TQRQ-bbmVvI/v-deo.html Gavin has supplied links to Joe's rebuttal videos in the description box above.
First mention ever of a biblical canon - St Athanasius (he venerated the blessed mother and "prayed" to saints) Second ever mention of a biblical canon - Pope Damasus (he venerated the blessed mother and "prayed" to saints) Both of these church fathers fervently fought heresies. Already in the year 376, we find Jerome writing to Pope Damasus suggesting the primacy of the bishop of Rome... "Yet, though your greatness terrifies me, your kindness attracts me. From the priest I demand the safe-keeping of the victim, from the shepherd the protection due to the sheep. Away with all that is overweening; let the state of Roman majesty withdraw. My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. But since by reason of my sins I have betaken myself to this desert which lies between Syria and the uncivilized waste, I cannot, owing to the great distance between us, always ask of your sanctity the holy thing of the Lord. Consequently, I here follow the Egyptian confessors who share your faith, and anchor my frail craft under the shadow of their great argosies. I know nothing of Vitalis; I reject Meletius; I have nothing to do with Paulinus. He that gathers not with you scatters; he that is not of Christ is of Antichrist." St Joan of Arc, one of the most amazing people to ever live, venerated the blessed mother and "prayed" to saints. In fact, she claimed to receive messages from Saint Margaret, Saint Catherine, and Saint Michael. She also fought heresy. In St Joan's letter to the Hussites - a group of early protestants, she begins with her usual signature "Jesus, Mary." She continues with the following: "You corrupt the sacraments of the Church, you mutilate the articles of the Faith, you destroy churches, you break and burn statues [of the saints] which were created as memorials.....you persecute and plan to overthrow and destroy this Faith which God Almighty, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have raised, founded, exalted, and enlightened a thousand ways through a thousand miracles......if you would prefer to return to the Catholic faith and the original light, then send me your ambassadors and I will tell them what you need to do; if not however, and if you stubbornly wish to resist the spur,n9 keep in mind what damages and crimes you have committed and await me, who will mete out suitable repayment with the strongest of forces both human and Divine. St Joan said the statues were created as memorials. There is no mention of worship. There are thousands of years of history and tradition that cannot be undone with one "accretion" called sola scriptura. Furthermore, the church always has and always will have problems. It will be this way until Jesus comes again. Pagan idolatry, however, is a preposterous claim. You may say that some Catholics take Marian veneration too far, but I could just as easily say some protestants preach a false Jesus who is essentially a genie who can make you rich *cough*Joel Osteen*cough*. If you ask me, this is an even greater perversion... As for ad hominem attacks, those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. A proper look into Martin Luther's history will reveal some questionable details. Lloyd de Jongh has covered this on his channel, and he is an Anglican.
Gavin, Catholic here who really appreciates your content and the approach to discussions that you model! I’m also a fan of Joe’s and looking forward to his response to this since you seem to be correct in your reading of Origen and I’m interested to see how he explains his reading. One criticism I would offer here is that I think you go overboard in your claims of misrepresentation in a rather unhelpful way. To take just one example - Joe addressed your pagan origins of Marian devotion comment - and then you took issue with that and said it wasn’t even the focus of your video. From a Catholic perspective though, it’s really problematic that you would throw that claim out there and then not bother to try and back it up. We hear that thrown at us a lot, and I think that Joe felt (rightly) that your viewers would likely just accept that idea uncritically. As an aside, I would love to see a dialogue between you two in the future on Mary - I really enjoyed the ones you had on Church History and the Papacy! Peace!
thanks for the comment! I think its fair to respond to the concern of pagan influence, but not AS THOUGH I had developed an argument for it, and making it the framing of the whole response
Thank you so much for this video AND all of the others that I will be BINGE watching talking about the Roman Catholic Church. This year...after 28 years of marriage and 8 kids....my husband and kids are working through the membership class to join the Catholic church......we've been Protestants until this year and I am having such a hard time understanding WHY they are doing this. Your videos have helped me to NOT THINK THAT IT'S JUST ME and that I"M CRAZY for disagreeing with them! Thank you for taking the time to educate those of us about these issues so that we can better understand and better argue our Protestant side. THANK YOU!
@@andonlal This person said she *doesn't* want to join the Catholic church. If you want to be an evangelist you have to actually listen to what people say.
Why do they even question the prayers to saints?...prayers to saints are humble requests, totally different from worshiping God at Mass and the Holy Eucharist at the Lord's Day.. Or there could be the misunderstood idea of a saint. Catholic Saints number in the tens of thousands. These saints are not "mere" men and women. Saints made Christianity alive and real, that goes beyond the abstract of religion and philosophy. Saints made a deep impression not only in Church and faith-related matters, but also in the history of thoughts, in the evolution of the society, in political, economic and human events. They are men and women with spiritual strength and faith, who sacrificed their existence, giving up everything else, sacrificed themselves to God’s will and the sake of their brothers. They contributed to the Christianization of Europe and to the birth of the Western society. Saint Benedict: Founder of the Benedictine order, considered the father of the Western monasticism. He created a community of men who shared his same spiritual yearning and brotherly charity. Many centers for prayer and centers of culture and assistance to the poor were built. The solitude of hermits turned into a communion of men, with their intents, their strength, their faith, which set an example of strength and effect for all humankind of that time and the following centuries. St. Ignatius Loyola: He founded the Jesuits with the aim of proclaiming the Gospel in charity and truth, placing an emphasis on interior renewal. They brought the evangelic message to the whole world with their missionary activities. Francis of Assisi: His love for Jesus led him to give up everything he had, dedicating his own life to prayer, work and preaching. Consecrated to poverty, he wanted to follow Jesus’ steps, which he could recognize in every suffering person. We owe him the foundation of mendicant orders, united by the vow of poverty. Saint Joan of Arc: Joan had a major role in the Hundred Years’ war, in the deep political crisis caused by the Western Schism and the conflicts between France and England. She was sent by God to lead the French army in battle. Her example to us testifies that the love for your own country can be compared to a Christian value; you must always fight for the truth and not for power. She at the age of 17 ended the Hundred Years War. Saint Teresa of Avila: She was the founder of the monks and friar of the Carmelites, who chose to dedicate their whole lives to prayer, and to turn life itself into a prayer. She was the first woman to be recognized as Doctor of the Church, and contributed to the renovation of the Church itself by offering a new model of charity and interpretation of the Gospel, and choosing a religious life made of austerity and joy, strictness, solitude, in a deep union between mystic and apostolic life.
This isn't dirrectly to do with the video , I plan to watch it later, But in your opinion who is the leading protestant today? If I could make a suggestion, there is an elderly protestant church leader in the US who I love in christ named Chuck Swindol. My suggestion is perhaps you could make a positive video about protestants in adition to your videos advocating protestism. I don't know of any other 'man of God' that who is as relentless as Chuck Swindol in getting his heart right for God. So there is my suggestion. God bless you also Gavin for your heart, I was seriously considering Orthodox Christianity untill I found your videos.
I think Gavin does well, I am not sure what anyone can do to tell Roman Catholics to read scripture as it's God breathed and they do not put it first. I was Raised Catholic , none of my siblings read the bible as Catholics, I have 3 siblings , they all rely on the Roman Church .The bible is the only truth. God bless and read the word of God for yourself. I was saved by the reading of God's word (BIBLE) not anyone's teaching.
The only Bible verse that means anything to Catholics is Matthew 16:18, which, ironically, they use to discredit the Bible over the authority of people who were born long after the Bible was written.
Anglican scholar on the ubiquity of prayer to the saints in the 4th century: “I beg the reader to notice that these Fathers which have just been quoted represent every part of the then world. Nazianzen, Nyssen, Chrysostom, and Basil at Constantinople and in Asia Minor, Ambrose at Milan, Augustine on the African coast, Victricius at Rouen in France. Is it possible that all these should have at the same time invented a new practice, and taught it to the people, and yet that there should not be the least intimation on their parts that there was anything unusual in their teaching? And what, perhaps, is still more remarkable, no one was found to enter a protest, so far as we have any record, either in the East or West; and the one man that came the nearest to doing so, Vigilantius, was looked upon by the whole Church as a heretic for his denial of what was considered a doctrine of the faith. …Now we must most carefully remember the exceedingly conservative character of all the Fathers of the fourth century. It was the time of the Council of Nice and the years immediately succeeding it, and I think I cannot better set forth the unlikeliness of all these Fathers having simultaneously adopted and taught an unheard-of practice.” (Henry Percival, (Anglican) Invocation of the Saints, p. 169-170, 177)
There wasn't silence from the fourth century onward. See my earlier comments in this thread about sources before the fourth century who seem to have only prayed to God and sources from the fourth century onward who held that view. Vigilantius was a church leader, and Jerome acknowledged that other church leaders supported him. Matthew Dal Santo's book that I cited earlier and other sources I've cited refer to many patristic and medieval individuals who doubted the cult of the saints in various ways, including prayer to saints. Opposition to praying to saints persisted up to the time of the Reformation among some sources. It was widespread among the Waldensians, Lollards, and Hussites. The opposition to praying to saints and angels from the fourth century onward is much more substantial than the support for the practice before the fourth century. It's unreasonable to be unmoved by the lack of prayer to saints and angels prior to the fourth century, then expect other people to be so moved by an alleged lack of the opposite position for a shorter period of time afterward.
Claiming there was no one but a lowly protestor for the practice, who the church conveniently labeled as a heretic, is a convenient argument. History belongs to the victors, as they say. There were many who contested the practice. Mostly they would be considered as heretics, and so discredited. Some were killed. Those who had repute, they are just ignored and since history belongs to the victors, it is just claimed there were no opponents. Those in high regard, like Origen, they just totally twist his words and pretend he agreed.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 “Who the Church conveniently labeled as a heretic.” So it’s not a heresy that we have prexistent souls, the Son and the Spirit are subordinate to the Son, everyone will be saved, and that there will be multiple Falls. LOL
I am a 66 book adherent and do pray FOR the angles and saints, even for their life as it was/is/willbe (according to my perspective), as well preach the gospel to the whole world around me (yes, even plants and animals). To ask of anyone besides the creator (that sustains all things) be they presently dead or alive seems like asking the impossible from our broken state, but I do appreciate the prayers of my brothers and sisters.
Dear Gavin, in regard to your problem with "Mary placating Jesus", what do you suppose was happening at the Wedding Feast of Cana? Our Lady "changed" God's time frame to begin His ministry ahead of schedule. If she can do that, she can also exercise other influence over Him - AS IS NATURAL BETWEEN A MOTHER AND SON. As a human mother can appeal to her son to intercede, change, and placate her son, so it is with Our Lady and Jesus. Christ IS STILL HUMAN. Mary is STILL HIS Mother. To pray is simply to "communicate". The members of the Body of Christ communicate with one another, except that in this Body, the communication's purpose is ultimately directed to the Trinity. Once again, Gavin has failed to appreciate the Incarnation. Christ did not become man so Gavin can whitewash and empty what is natural between a mother and a son. Yet, he is essentially arguing for exactly that between Christ and His Mother. This is a major error on his part. Once again, Gavin shows that protestantism falls on a major teaching of authentic Christianity. Our Lady's "power" comes through her HUMAN relationship with her son. And since the Son has united His sacred humanity with his divinity, Our Lady *by virtue of the common humanity which she shares which Jesus and which she communicates to her Son* has the means to access the Godhead in a way that no other Christian has. If Gavin has a problem with that, he needs to complain to Jesus, not to (or about) Joe Heschmeyer.
While he was alive, Catholics used to come to Padre Pio and ask him to pray for them. Padre Pio would counsel them to pray to their guardian angel, who would then take the prayer to Padre Pio (who apparently existed in heaven while he was on earth?) , and then, apparently, Pio would pray to God for the requested intercession. Or perhaps it was the extended version: Pray to guardian angel, to pray to Pio, to pray to Mary, to pray to Jesus, to pray to God the Father, in hope that He would rubber-stamp the intercession. There are the byzantine lengths that prayer to the saints can evolve into.
No matter how you spin it, the protestant view is that prayers and praise to the saints is a grave error. How can the new covenant church universally accept this grave error so early in her history? And also at the same time destroy pagan religion, define the NT and details of Christology and the Trinity? It seems wildly implausible that these two things could happen simultaneously.
Exactly, I find it a bit hypocritical for Gavin to take offense when he is accusing Catholic and Orthodox Christians of hitching up with pagans and gnostics. Does he not realize how offensive that is?
Dude .... I love how much charity and grace you give to your debate opponents, but in this case I think it's unearned. I went and tried to watch his videos in which he "debunked" you, and it was hard, I didn't even get through the whole thing in either case. His attitude, tone, rhetoric, etc. all reek of the same energy and spirit that I remember eating up from atheists "debunking" Christianity and the bible (back when I was agnostic.). I thank God for your media ministry here on UA-cam, I often share your videos with my wife. His comment section is filled with "pray the rosary for Gavin to convert" and other nonsense, but all I can think of is that we need to pray for the man as well. He may be a true Christian, idk, but the man clearly needs Jesus, as do we all. May our Lord have mercy on us all!
I have a good book to recommend.. the Bible. Where does it say anywhere in the holy scriptures that we need to pray to and through the dead? It is so obvious and blatantly an act of idolatry. This can save you much time instead of listening to all this talk and debate. Read your Bible!
If intercession of saints is a doctrine share by all the ancient churches (Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Oriental Orthodox & Assyrian Church of the East), that would seem to suggest something.
If the bible clearly taught intercession of saints and Jesus or the apostles modeled it specifically for us, then I'd be sold. That would really be suggesting that it's endorsed. There's no hint. The ancient churches only practiced it later. As far as we can find, no earlier than 250 or so AD do we have documentation of it. It was probably later, but Catholics and Orthodox insist the Papyrus 270 w/ the Marian prayer has to be that early, so we'll go w/ that. Even though the scholar who studied the papyrus thinks it was more 4th to 5th century.
I would personally make a slight argument from silence regarding praying to saints and entreating Mary. There is just so little mention of Mary from the church fathers in the first few centuries - exactly the time when you would think her "star would be on the rise."
Stay away from catholicism. Stay away from idolatry & fanaticism of men. Follow Jesus, become a Christian. Identify yourself with Jesus Christ not with institutions of fallible men.
Here is the problem with this statement: that last sentence inevitably leads to worship their own opinions, which becomes idolatry. A person CANNOT have Christ without the church that He leads and works with. Protestants tend to jerk to opposite(and equally unbiblical) extremes as Catholics. A body without a head is dead and useless.
I started studying Catholic accretions when I heard Michael Voris with Church Militant pray to "Queen of the Universe". I shudder at such language. In engaging in Catholics, it is apparent they have to engage in rhetoric rather than hermeneutics.
Don't be fooled. If it's Joe Heschmeyer it IS intentional and premeditated. He makes very childish and personal derogatory comments. Tangled with him several times along his push for Catholic fame.
This is not right!!! @9:05 min in this video you state Mary is the cause of salvation, Amen! I have to STRONGLY disagree with you, and Catholics and Irenaeus or anyone who wants to claim, for that matter, on Mary being the "cause" of salvation!!!! It is nonsense like this that leads people to start to give Mary more holiness, or "credit" than she really deserves! My understanding of the word "cause" is that it means origin or beginning or start of something. The Oxford dictionary defines it as "a person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition. "the cause of the accident is not clear". Thus, it is false to attribute salvation, or even Jesus's birth, to having been "caused" by Mary. Mary is nothing more than an "instrument" for birthing or bringing Christ into this world! NOTHING more! She's a person off cause. A human, and having been chosen by God for this honor to be the earthly mother of Christ, but giving her the credit of being the "cause" of salvation is just duft! Crazy and may I say, stupid!!! ONLY GOD IS THE CAUSE OF SALVATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not Mary and not anyone or anybody else, but GOD!! Stop trying to apiece Catholics, or heretics, just to keep the piece, please? I know you mean well and you want to be "nice", but being nice means to point to the truth, and this Mary nonsens should be addressed with the vigour it deserves! The Catholic doctrine on Mary has only one purpose, and that is to take focus away from Christ! To minimise Christ's role in salvation, and to undermine Christ's authority! It should be opposed with vigour and to all ends! It is heresy and blasphemy!!! Satan is laughing and wringing his hands in his accomplishment of diminishing Christ Jesus, and God, for that matter! DO NOT GIVE SATAN THIS PLEASURE!!!
9:05 "Mary is the cause of salvation *because* of the Incarnation." The clause qualifies the context of "because." If there was no Mary there would be no Jesus. Mary gave birth to Jesus, and in that way she was the *cause* of Jesus' very existence and, hence, the "cause* of salvation.
BS! God chose Mary! She didn't decide to bare a child while still a virgin and that the child will be the Messiah! God could have chosen anyone! That women, the chosen one, whomever she is, is but a vessel, not the cause of the incarnation. This is just ridiculous to even suggest that without a women God would be unable to have brought His child into this earth, or into this realm, and thus God would be unable to have given us salvation! What utter nonsense! It is this kind of Christ humiliation by Catholics that points to Satan! It screams into the face of God, yet it is continually used as justification for Catholic doctrine! To your ridiculous argument, why is Pontius Pilate not then the cause of salvation, or Judas, for if they did not do what they did, according to Catholic Satanic believe, Jesus would not have been crucified!!! This Satanic indoctrination is the cause of many people's eternal death!!! May God have mercy!!@@joeoleary9010
@joeoleary9010 Jesus is eternal, and therefore did not need Mary to exist. Mary existed because of Him, not the other way around. Mary was truly blessed by giving birth to the Messiah. However, Mary, along with all of us, was a servant and a child of God. That doesn't diminish her in any way. Mary, like others, was chosen to fulfill God's plan. You should follow what Mary said and focus on God, our Savior. And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, Luke 1:46-47 ESV
@@clayw70 That is very well put. It doesn't diminish Mary, or make her a mere vessel. Even as a non-Catholic, I still cringe a bit when a protestant says that Mary was just a vessel. Mary was still a beloved woman, created by God, and definitely very blessed to be given the honour to carry our Lord and savior. This is where Catholics and protestants differ in seeing the scriptures about Mary being blessed by all generations. She is said to be blessed by all generations. We certainly honour her at Christmas, and she comes up a lot at that time, because she was a key player in the incarnation of Christ. Catholics definitely don't follow our more reserved way to honour Mary. They take it a level that we just can't follow. I'll leave it more subtly at that.
@saintejeannedarc9460 Thank you for your kind words! I edited my post because I didn't see how my language could be taken poorly. Thank you for pointing that out! I try to always speak out of love while maintaining truth. Sometimes, I choose poor words though.
I don't understand the Gospel, so my pursuit of truth is often tainted with motives of vainglory, but I would hope that, even if for the sake of vainglory-tainted desire to know truth, and be seen as someone who is honest, I would not so openly misrepresent someone. I mean, it just makes you look like you need a little extra help comprehending your "opponent" when you do that. Sadly, his fans will not call him out for misrepresenting.
Do you know specifically which video Joe was responding to of Gavin's? I watched the latest one. I found the last one so weak and lawyerly, full of rhetoric, but not convincing arguments for praying to saints. I didn't catch how much he straw manned, until I saw Gavin's response now though.
Dr. Ortlund, Your videos have been encouraging to me as I ask tough questions. I would appreciate your prayers as I investigate these questions. My biggest one is probably about John 20:23. I think I have never heard a good Protestant perspective on this verse. Especially not one that relates to the Church Fathers. It seems to me that it used often for evidence for the neccesity of auricular confession and apostolic succession. Do you know any place I could find one? Thank you!
Are you struggling w/ whether your sins can be forgiven w/out a Catholic priest? Even priests will point to scriptures that say we can always confess to God and have our sins forgiven directly. One scripture on this doesn't negate all the others, many others that say "when we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness".
Yes I have been. I think youre right in saying there are verses about praying and asking God for forgiveness. But I thought Catholic doctrine says mortal sins need to be confessed to a priest to be absolved. I also dont understand how Protestant Churches interpret John 20:23 (its rarely brought up) and oppose Catholic claims to succession. This verse has been perhaps my main towards Catholicism or Orthodoxy.
Why is it sinful to say the same words to Mary and the saints/angels that I would say to my wife or fellow Christian brother-“Will you pray for me?” Obviously, when I ask my wife/brother to pray for me, I’m not Praying to them as I would to God. Therefore, if I ask Mary/saints to pray for me, I’m not praying to them in the same way that I Pray to God.
If you come to a fellow Christian, you aren't coming w/ lavish praise and adoration for them, which looks like the worship due to God. I see this blatantly in the Psaltery of the Blessed Virgin Mary, which are reworked psalms, 150 of them, all to Mary, rather than to God. We know the psalms are prayers and worship to God, so to see this is nothing short of blasphemy. I've given a few samples to Catholics and they see absolutely nothing wrong w/ the language of these psalms, so there just doesn't seem to be a line that shouldn't be crossed in Catholic practice, even though we are always told that worship belongs only to God. Catholics seem to only see worship happening in the Mass, so there is no language too far, no prayer to effusive and no worshipful language that is ever too much, even if every attribute normally reserved for God is given to Mary. PSALM 15 Preserve me, O Lady, for I have hoped in thee: do thou bestow on me the dew of thy grace. Thy virginal womb has begotten the Son of the Most High. Blessed be thy breasts, by which thou hast nourished the Savior with deific milk. Let us give praise to the glorious Virgin: whosoever ye be that have found grace and mercy through her. Give glory to her name: and praise forever her conception and her birth. Glory be to the Father
Is it the same words as we'd speak to our friends or family? Here's a standard Catholic prayer to St. Jude: "O Holy St. Jude, Apostle and Martyr, great in virtue and rich in miracles, near kinsman of Jesus Christ, faithful intercessor of all who invoke your special patronage in time of need, to you I have recourse from the depth of my heart and humbly beg to whom God has given such great power to come to my assistance. Help me in my present and urgent petition. In return, I promise to make your name known and cause you to be invoked. St. Jude pray for us all who invoke your aid. Amen."
@@joeoleary9010 and @saintejeannedarc9460, Maybe those prayers go too far. Maybe the language is too effusive. Nothing in catholic theology REQUIRES you to say those devotionals. In fact, you don’t have to ever request the intercession of any saint if you don’t want to. The problem here is that you have given me two examples that may or may not be problematic, but they do not refute the general argument I laid out in my comment: Is there anything wrong with saying the same words to Mary/saints as I would to my wife/Christian brother-“please pray for me”? Even if I stipulate that your two examples are inappropriate, you will not have answered my more fundamental question.
Simply, 1 Tim. 2 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Strong's Number - G3316 Greek: μεσίτης Transliteration: mesitēs Pronunciation: mes-ee'-tace Definition: From G3319; a go between that is (simply) an internunciator or (by implication) a reconciler (intercessor): - mediator.
There is nowhere in scripture where the saints pray for us. The apostles never modeled it, Jesus never taught it. Joe had one apocryphal scripture from Macabees where a dead man who had been righteous said he was praying for the Jews. It was in a prophetic dream. That's all they have.
Yeah, that summary of your argument (shown in the thumbnail) is absolutely ridiculous. It's akin to if a husband accused a wife of adultery (forgive the explicit nature of the analogy) and she replied, "That's not fair! I sleep with you all the time!" We see prayers and devotion to God as a matter of exclusivity, not prominence. In fact, in the OT God quite often used the example of marriage exclusivity to illustrate what the people of Israel owed to him as their God. No excuses.
"I am sure that is not intentional". Yea, you are much too hopeful regarding others my friend. If a person starts his arguments against you by first insulting and/or discrediting you..., you better believe it's intentional because they hate what you have to say.
It is sad that some of these Catholic apologists remind me of Muslim apologists who straw-man Christian positions. I also see you Dr. Gavin being slandered for stating the truth as best as you can, and that also makes me a little sad. I have been very blessed from thinkers and defenders of the Christian faith from the Catholic tradition, and accordingly carry great respect for them. This makes this all the more sad for me. Let's all hold ourselves to a higher standard.
Shameless popery has a new video that really dives into this subject! Check it out. The care for making sure Dr. Gavin is well represented really shows. I think you would appreciate it
I think saying Mary is the CAUSE of salvation is very problematic!! Gavin please think about what your saying. The cause of Salvation is Christ. She was a vessel that bought the Savior into the world. Salvation is not in her.
I watched a video from joe where he said that reformed theology did not acknowledge the Eucharist as a type of sacrifice, which was so false I told him that the reformers spoke of sacrifice but denied an oblation, he responded and I pointed him to Turretin and he would not respond when I asked him if he understood the difference no response, no acknowledgement of his violence to the truth
Hey, Dr. Ortlund, how would you respond to a Catholic who says, “Sure Origen said not to pray to anyone but God, but he didn’t say not to ask deceased saints or angels to pray to God for us”? Many Catholics don’t think they’re praying to saints and angels, but asking them to pray for them.
I would respond with explaining that it's a semantic word game. What does a person do when they pray to God? They're talking/communicating to God. Furthermore, we are communicating with an unseen Being Who is also part of the spiritual realm. That would be the distinction between prayer and talking to a person who is alive. Therefore, the asking for the prayers of the saints is prayer in itself because you're attempting to talk/communicate with deceased Christians who are in heaven (unseen and part of the spiritual realm). Praying to them or asking them to pray for you both involve communication with the saints in heaven. In addition, under both cases, the assumption that the saints can hear the prayers ("asks") and intercede for the individual is basically identical. Just my thoughts on the matter. I hope that was clear and made sense. If not, feel free to point it out.
To add to Gavin's comments about Origen, I'll mention some other relevant passages in Against Celsus. In 5:11, we're told that "we ought not to pray to beings who pray themselves". In 5:12, Origen writes, "It is wrong, then, to attempt to pray to a being who does not permeate the whole world such as the sun or moon or one of the stars." He tells us that "every prayer" is offered to God (7:51). In summary, "Away with Celsus' advice when he says that 'we ought to pray to demons [angels, whether good or bad]'. We ought not to pay the slightest attention to it. We ought to pray to the supreme God alone, and to pray besides to the only-begotten Logos of God" (8:26). The comments of both Celsus and Origen are best explained if the mainstream Christian view at the time was that we should pray only to God, not to saints or angels.
For some comments from modern scholars about how Origen believed in praying only to God, see Henry Chadwick, ed., Origen: Contra Celsum (New York, New York: Cambridge University Press, 2003), n. 6 on p. 266; Robert Bartlett, Why Can The Dead Do Such Great Things? (Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2013), approximate Kindle location 4717; John McGuckin, ed., The Westminster Handbook To Origen (Louisville, Kentucky: Westminster John Knox Press, 2004), 38; Julia Konstantinovsky, ibid., 176. For example, McGuckin, in the source cited above, writes, "Origen is clear in this work [On Prayer] that prayer ought to be addressed to God the Father alone." Konstantinovsky, writes, "He [Origen] is also much concerned with the question, 'To whom should one pray?' In the Peri Euches [On Prayer] Origen states categorically that we 'must never pray to anything generated, not even to Christ' (PEuch 15.1) and that it is a 'sin of ignorance' to pray to Christ (idiotiken hamartian) (PEuch 16.1). In his later works, however, Origen seems to have changed this view and certainly allows prayer to be addressed directly to Christ (CCels 8.26; HomEx 13.3). In fact, he often addresses invocations of his own to the divine Christ."
Thank you
@@ConfessingExalter bro what? What kind of argument is that , Jesus is God, Mary is not, the Saints are not, yes you can pray to Jesus. What an absolute poor comment.
@@ConfessingExalter By *Origen's logic...
If Origen changed his mind about praying to Jesus, would it be possible that he would have eventually have changed his mind about praying to saints?
@@maciejpieczula631 If the traditional Roman Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) claims about the history of their teachings were true, Origen shouldn't have needed to change his mind. And there's no reason to think he would have. Including Jesus as a recipient of prayer is in a much different category than including saints or angels. The former doesn't logically lead to the latter. And we could turn your speculation around and ask whether historical sources who accepted prayer to saints and angels may have changed their mind if given more time.
The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him.
Proverbs 18:17
Once again. Perfect.
And there is a reply to this video as well
When they ask for Mary’s intercession, would that be in place of the Holy Spirit? That seems blasphemous.
Gavin I’m Orthodox. I’ve loved the back and forth on various topics between you, Joe and Trent especially. Y’all are laudatory examples of good faith discussion and I hope hard feelings never develop and this all can continue. God bless
Yet I see too many Catholics on Joe's channel calling Gavin a wolf in sheep's clothing, and nasty stuff like that. Gavin of all people, seriously?
@@saintejeannedarc9460I’m a Catholic and I like Dr. Ortlund. There’s plenty of us Catholics that like his approach and character. I hope uncharitable and slanderous Catholics repent.
Bman5257 If he is right then we are idolaters and pagans. This is despite the fact that even the early reformers venerated the blessed mother and prayed to saints. So who exactly was the first Christian to say praying to saints is idolatry?
@@SpaceAdventuresofSkyCat Dr. Ortlund is certainly open to criticism, but attacks upon his character in my view are either false or unfounded.
I'm catholic. A convert in fact. I enjoy listening to both sides. I think videos like these (clarifying one's) are super helpful. I enjoy gavins contribution to the protestant catholic dialogue. Even though we see things differently. God bless him.
The common catholic argument I hear of “don’t you ask your friends here on earth to pray for you… why can’t you ask the saints in heaven…” to be misleading, particularly when referring to prayers to Mary.
It seems like Marian devotion is so much more than merely “asking a friend to pray for me.” I need not “devote” myself to my friend in order to ask him to pray for me.
I would disagree with prayer to Mary and to saints, even without the pomp and circumstance of Marian devotion. But if the process of these prayers was much simpler and more like “hey friend, could you pray for me” then maybe the matter could move down on the theological triage scale for me.
Even more than convincing me of the points he is trying to make, Gavin has taught me to be humble and gracious in all of my interactions about theological differences. His tone is sharply different than so many of those who oppose him. Praise God!
It doesn't really matter though, I still see so many nasty comments on the Catholic channels that answer to Gavin's videos. I don't see those same accusations and nasty comments to other Catholic apologists, so I wonder about that. Catholics don't like to be challenged on their beliefs, no matter how graciously it is done. These videos were merely that one of their church fathers doesn't see things exactly how they do and doesn't support praying to saints. They have to own each and every church father, and see that they are agreed w/ in every single way.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 I hear you. But when their institution has plainly taught that there is no salvation outside of itself, then it’s more understandable as to why they would not be as quick to graciously agree to disagree. Protestants can be wrong on certain issues and still rejoice in the gospel. Catholics can’t rejoice in an infallible teaching office if in fact it is not so on even one issue.
Thanks for your response!
@@DanOcchiogrosso-uj4be It's a high handed and harsh approach then. We are still admonished to have patience, grace and longsuffering w/ one another. And that we have faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love.
Wow that is remarkably bad. I see now why you had to make this video, not only because of his mis presenting you but also trying to make Origen say exactly the opposite of his repeated point.
Origen clearly clearly clearly says we are to pray to God alone
Jesus said we're to pray to our father in heaven. His words are enough and settle the matter.
@@marriage4life893 Yeah, no. That's to be totally ignored and never answered to by Catholics. I've never had a Catholic explain why Jesus' model of prayer doesn't count. They just ignore when I point out the Our Father, and just parrot about church tradition. They claim they esteem the bible, but put tradition above the bible very consistently. If this is pointed out, they just claim that they own the bible, they Gave Us the bible, because the Catholic church canonized it. Some even claim they actually wrote the bible. That's how big Catholic pride and hubris can be.
Origen is a heretic, this is just another point in which he deviated from Christianity.
I strongly suggest people watch Joe Heschmeyer’s rebuttal to this video because he shows how Gavin really is misunderstanding Origen. Gavin might still disagree, but Joe has some good information about it. It would be nice if the two could dialogue directly.
Are there any examples in the Bible of living people praying to dead ones? I only can think of people praying to God.
Pray simply means talk to or make a request (at least historically when Catholics say pray to a saint). Catholics ask saints for prayers the same way we ask for prayers on earth. It’s not circumventing Jesus; it’s going to Jesus together as family. Jesus talked to Elijah and Moses when he was transfigured, Revelation demonstrates that those in heaven are aware of what happens on earth and even present earthly prayers to the Lord in the form of incense, scripture says we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, angels have always ministered to humans and had back and forth dialogues. When you put all this together, it’s no wonder we have evidence of Christians evoking saints since the early centuries. It’s Protestants who came up with the idea that Christ’s body, his bride, his kingdom, is somehow separated by death.
@@thegoatofyoutube1787 Catholics say they don't pray to saints but rather they talk to them just like they would if they asked someone in church to pray for them. Would you walk up to someone in church and say this? “Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil; may God rebuke him, we humbly pray. O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who wander through the world for ruin of souls. Amen.”
@@thegoatofyoutube1787 I would humbly request people to stop using the Transfiguration as an allowance for them praying to dead Saints. First Jesus had to be transfigured and by God's permission allowed Peter, James and John to see this. As we are, we cannot be transfigured in order to see in the spirit we cannot see whom we are praying to. Scholars and theologians think that the appearence of Moses and Elijah purposely was about what Jesus was going to achieve by His death, which was to fullfil the law(Moses) and the prophecies(Elijah).
Jesus loves you. He told us to pray to the Father and only THROUGH Him alone. He never directed His disciples to pray through anybody else be it Mary, Apostles or Prophets. He is our friend and our saviour. Praying for one another is just that, that is why we gather for prayers. We all have times of weakness where we need one another. It is mistake to extend that into heaven. That's why people have familiar spirits of dead persons haunting them.
Those defending these practices will be held accountable to what they teach. It will not be a good thing to be judged more harshly than others.
@@thegoatofyoutube1787prayer is worship in the Bible. Not just asking.
Zero examples of f anyone praying to people in heaven.
As an evangelical Christian I would not dare to pray to Mary the mother of Jesus or to the Apostles Peter, John, or Paul even though all four saints are in heaven with Christ. To pray to the saints would indicate that one believes the Lord Jesus Christ is not our only intercessor with God the Father which would be heresy. Prayers to the saints would be wrong even if one does not worship them.
Ummm... you just agreed with the catholic church?
The catechism very clearly says that Jesus is the ONLY mediator to God the Father, but there are many mediators / intercessors before that, between me and Jesus. (Not to god the father). For example, my mother-in-law (Non denominational) interceeded and helped bring me closer to Jesus, as well as many others praying for me, and YT teachers helping refine my thinking. I asked them to help (pray means to ask - in monarchy, in legal papers, in court, in movies, etc. Prayer ALWAYS means to ask. Literal translation. Modern language is very diluted and twisted unfortunately last century.
I asked / prayed for help, and my non-denominational mother in law and non-denominational husbandinterceeded and help mediate, bringing me closer to Jesus
The Holy Spirit is called our intercessor in Romans 8. Jesus is the one mediator.
@@miracles_metanoia Yes, they say talking to a saint is just like talking to a buddy when you want prayer. Who talks to a buddy like this: Holy Mary, our Mother. Today, each day, and in our last hour we entrust ourselves entirely to your loving and singular care. We place in your hands: our entire hope and happiness, our every anxiety and difficulty, our whole lives. May our every endeavor be directed and guided according to the Will of Your Son, which is your will, by the aid of your prayers and special favor with God. Amen.”
Dr. Ortlund is literally impossible. How can a human be so charitable and hospitable in the midst of blatant misrepresentation and borderline insult? I legitimately thank the Lord for people like Gavin to set a Godly example of how to love your neighbors.
I watched Joe's video a few times, as I've always been very curious how on earth Catholics justify praying to saints. While I found Joe's arguments pretty darn frustrating, because they were so threadbare and twisted scripture into pretzels to justify their practice, I didn't find it insulting to Gavin.
@@saintejeannedarc9460You say “curious how they justify” as if there are any biblical arguments against prayers to saints besides arguments from silence, and it “feeling” like worship.
@bman5257 you didn't watch the video. He goes into the arguments against praying to the saints from Origien
@@Stigma-ba115 But are there any biblical arguments against it? Due to sola scriptura, there would need to be a biblical argument for us to know for sure it’s wrong.
@@Stigma-ba115 And Origen doesn’t think you should not pray to the Son like you do with the Father. So we both think Origen is heretical on prayer.
"...God is infinite. If you have God, you get everything else thrown in." - Gavin
That sums it up.
A large percentage of Joe Heschmeyer's response is irrelevant. 2 Maccabees 15:12-16 is about a vision. A knowledgeable Protestant won't deny that we can speak with saints, angels, or other beings who appear to us in a context like a vision or in more ordinary circumstances (Mary's speaking with Gabriel in the context of the annunciation, John's speaking with angels in Revelation, etc.). That's a significantly different context than prayer. Similarly, Tobit 12:15 in the form in which Joe quotes it, like Revelation 5:8 and 8:4, is about the presentation of prayers before God. It doesn't follow that the angels (or saints in Revelation 5) are the ones being prayed to. Revelation 5:8 doesn't just mention elders. It also mentions the four living creatures. Are we to pray to them as well? When angels are referred to as carrying bowls of wrath (Revelation 16:2), we don't conclude that the angels therefore are the recipients of the wrath. Furthermore, when other passages in Revelation allude to the prayers of Revelation 5, the most natural implication is that the prayers were addressed to God and were asking Him for justice on earth. This is documented by Richard Bauckham in his chapter on prayer in Richard Longenecker, ed., Into God's Presence (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 2001), 252-71. As Bauckham explains, Revelation 5:8, 8:3-4, 9:13-14, and 14:18 have similar terminology and imagery. The phrase "golden bowl full" is used in both Revelation 5:8 and 15:7. It seems that the wrath described in 15:7 is in response to the prayers of the saints. In 6:9-10, we see the martyred saints asking God for justice. And the incense altar associated with the prayers of the saints in 8:3-4 is referred to again in 9:13-14 and 14:18 in connection with God's exercising justice on earth. It seems that the best explanation of the prayers in Revelation 5 and Revelation 8 is that they're prayers to God, asking for justice on earth. They aren't prayers to saints or angels. The earliest patristic commentators on Revelation 5:8 refer to the prayers in that passage as being offered to God, not to the elders. We see this in Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 4:17:6-4:18:1), Origen (Against Celsus, 8:17), and Methodius (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, 5:8), for example. And though the angel in Tobit has a lot of knowledge of events on earth, who denies that angels sometimes have that sort of knowledge, especially if they've been sent on a task that's relevant to such knowledge? It doesn't follow that we can assume that any angel we want to pray to has any knowledge that would be needed in the context of that prayer.
Likewise, as Gavin explains in the video above, the account of the rich man and Lazarus is irrelevant. Communication between two individuals in the afterlife is a significantly different context than prayer from somebody on earth to somebody in heaven (or prayer to an angel while you're in this life on earth).
Concerning Matthew 27:47, the bystanders are likely Roman soldiers (suggested by their not understanding what Jesus said, their being allowed to go up to the cross and offer Jesus a drink, and the parallel between Matthew 27:48 and Luke 23:36). They're portrayed as ignorant, misinformed, and unbelieving. People often suggested that Jesus did things they disapproved of (Matthew 11:19, 12:24). The bystanders could easily be attributing something to Jesus that they considered an unacceptable practice, something they thought Jews in general would reject (if the bystanders weren't Jews themselves), or something they were agnostic about. The bystanders' attempt to explain what Jesus said doesn't suggest they thought that what he said was good, a common practice, or anything like that. And Matthew doesn't indicate his approval of what they said. To the contrary, he portrays them as ignorant, misinformed, and unbelieving, as I mentioned above.
At 43:14 in his second video, Joe cites section 5:19:1 in Irenaeus' Against Heresies. But go to the footnote on the passage in the version of Irenaeus' work at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library web site to see how vague the terminology is. And Eve is the person referred to by Irenaeus in connection to Mary in this context. How would Eve pray to Mary in any relevant way when Eve died before Mary came into existence? If Eve prays to Mary in some afterlife context, then that, once again, is irrelevant. Joe is making a point about a broader sort of intercession of Mary involving prayer, but the passage he cites in Irenaeus is about Eve, and it isn't about praying to Mary. Furthermore, Irenaeus' comments on prayer suggest that he believed in praying only to God. I discuss the evidence in a July 11, 2023 post titled "Did Irenaeus condemn prayer to angels?" at Triablogue.
As Gavin mentions in the video above, there are multiple patristic sources in the early centuries who oppose praying to beings other than God. In addition to the examples Gavin mentioned and Irenaeus, we also have evidence for such a view in other sources. Yet, Joe repeatedly makes comments in his second video suggesting that there wasn't such opposition to praying to saints and angels. See Joe's comments at roughly 49:35 regarding how we don't see opposition to something like praying to Mary; at 54:00 about how it's "really clear that they pray to the saints, but they don't worship them"; at 58:50 about how there's "no outcry" when we do see prayer to saints in the historical record. But there are comments against praying to saints and angels among a lot of early sources, and there is opposition to such prayers expressed after such praying becomes popular later on. See the examples discussed in Matthew Dal Santo's Debating The Saints' Cult In The Age Of Gregory The Great (United Kingdom: Oxford University Press, 2012). It's one of the issues brought up by Vigilantius and the church leaders who supported him, and there's a large stream of medieval sources who opposed such prayers. One of the issues Dal Santo addresses in his book is how a belief in soul sleep among some of the sources produced "radical" (308) and "profound" (315) differences in how the cult of the saints was perceived from one source to another. So, we not only see a lot of pre-Reformation sources opposing prayer to saints and angels, but we also see significant variation in how the cult of the saints was thought to operate among those who accepted praying to the saints.
Joe appeals to a lack of early evidence. But keep in mind that prayer has existed since the earliest days of human history. Joe appeals to 2 Maccabees and Tobit, which are sources of the Old Testament era, and he provided no reason to think that praying to saints (or angels) could only start happening in the New Testament era, so all of human history is relevant here. We have many thousands of pages of literature and other material from many sources over many centuries. Prayer is discussed explicitly and often, with thousands upon thousands of references to prayer to God in the Bible and the early patristic literature. Entire treatises were written on the subject of prayer. Believers write to each other about prayer, ask each other for prayer, discuss the afterlife and other subjects relevant to praying to saints and angels, etc. The idea that we have to wait until, say, the fourth century A.D. to have a significant level of knowledge of who people prayed to for thousands of years leading up to that time is absurd. Why would prayer to saints and angels just happen to keep not getting mentioned across so many sources over so many centuries, even though prayer to God keeps getting mentioned explicitly and frequently?
Wow- a very helpful summary!
This comment is a slam-dunk!
Excellent analysis!! Very strong points on the irrelevance of their arguments!
What a great, well reasoned comment!
Absolutely phenomenal comment.
If we are to pray to the saints and Mary, who did the Apostles and Mary pray to? What prayers did the Apostles pass on that we are to imitate?
This issue is a catch 22 to begin with and it is rather more likely that prayers to the saints was foreign to the Apostles and their immediate successors and thus a later invention.
@patriceagulu8315 So when the church was trying to sell salvation with indulgences, that wasn't err?
Well I often hear talk of the transfiguration being a nudge to talking to saints passed on, as well as the great cloud of witnesses being used as an indication that we can communicate w those passed on. All those people were fm the old testament, so the apostles and Mary could have prayed to them. Including maybe Philip who seemed to die early on enough.
@@ryanharvey6375Jesus did not pray to people in heaven. During transfiguration, the old testament men appeared and saw the promise: Jssus. That's it.
No apostle prayed to people in heaven. If you want to assume and choose to think it might have happened, it's ONLY an assumption. Given it's only an assumption and given it's not clearly taught...then leave it alone. Don't do the mistake as catholics do, they made this part of their doctrines. It's insane!!
@@roses993 I agree w you 😊 I like your spunk 😅
I wasn't clear when I wrote that, I meant it to respond to his comment on predessesors : there is an argument that we don't see prayers to saints among the apostles bc they had no predessesors to pray to, but if Catholics count the transfiguration as Jesus talking to saints, then old testament saints would count as predessesors to pray to. but there are no examples of prayers among the apostles to anyone besides the Father (ex. no prayers to Moses or Elijah). Also we might even see a prayer to Philip and maybe Mary if they passed on before the Epistles were written, but idk if they did. Anyway no one in the new or old testament writings made a prayer to, or talked to, those who passed on besides Saul and Jesus. That I know of.
Michael Scott: "[You misrepresented me] when I specifically asked you not to?"
Whenever I think about this topic I immediately think of King David and the Psalms. The Psalms generally read like prayers to me. Not once does David plead with or exalt anyone other than the God. I think that if we could expect to see prayers or requests to angels anywhere in the Bible it would be in Psalms or Job for that matter. I know this is technically and argument from silence but idk this is where my mind always goes.
@patriceagulu8315what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Where do the women of Jerusalem pray to David?
@patriceagulu8315 I think that interpretation is either ignorant or intellectually dishonest. Can you give me chapter and verse where David is worshipping Solomon in the same way he would worship God? There are plenty of instances in the Bible and in real life if people “praising” each other, whether it be due to gratitude or acknowledgement or good leadership. I don’t think the two are comparable at all.
@patriceagulu8315 this guy is something else…literally commenting on everyone’s comments from this video with pure ignorance…totally a troll. Time to move one man. You’ve been found out!
@patriceagulu8315 no one claimed that God failed the church… 😒
@patriceagulu8315 Psaltery to the Blessed Virgin Mary, which has mostly been replaced by PRAYING THE ROSARY now. Except this Psalter, full of prayers to Mary is available on a Catholic app. We all know the psalms are prayers, and these are psalms to Mary, giving her the virtues and powers of God, and also the praise that is always denied she gets, which is due only to God:
PSALM 15
Preserve me, O Lady, for I have hoped in thee: do thou bestow on me the dew of thy
grace.
Thy virginal womb has begotten the Son of the Most High.
Blessed be thy breasts, by which thou hast nourished the Savior with deific milk.
Let us give praise to the glorious Virgin: whosoever ye be that have found grace and
mercy through her.
Give glory to her name: and praise forever her conception and her birth.
Glory be to the Father
Thank you for always engaging with Catholics and doing it so charitably. I'd love to see a flowering of Protestant and Catholic apologetics online if it happens with such loving and thoughtful disposition. Our Lord is benefited by his followers coming together even when our differences are so serious and consequential. Love and prayers ❤️🙏
Thanks. I only pray to God. ❤
I'm told that's not enough. We Should be praying to saints and esp. worshiping Mary, Catholics keep telling me, or I don't have the fullness of the faith. Of course it's never admitted it's worship, even when it clearly is.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 in 1920 the Catholic Church proclaimed Jean of Arc a Saint, in heaven, alive in the realm of God, taking part of his Glory; alive, alive
@@rem7794 Sure, but we didn't need a church to proclaim this. Jeanne d'Arc is alive w/ God in heaven, as are less known saints of Jesus as well.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 yes, thanks God there is a lot of unknown Saints, but in this case in particular the title was given by the Catholic Church
I watched some of the videos and I was very aware of how Joe misrepresented you and almost seemed to scoff at you. I read the comments made by his followers and many of them did accuse you of being a liar. So I am glad you have now responded. Trouble is most of his followers won’t even watch this.
Obviously I am a Protestant and I wrote many responses to the comments his followers made - especially regarding the one about praying to the saints being pagan and the one before that about devotion to the saints getting in the way of focusing on Jesus.
I feel that I may as well have been speaking to a stone wall!
They are totally dedicated to Mary and the saints - and only God by His grace can change their minds. But we have to speak out as we are told to defend the faith.
We can only pray for them that they will come to a knowledge of the truth by God’s grace. K
@patriceagulu The Reformers and classical Protestants believed that too. They thought that the Church could pick up some errant practices and doctrines without fully falling away from the Faith and that it was still the Church established by Christ, but they just wanted to reform it in the spirit that Josiah reformed Judah. Completely different from the “Great Apostasy” idea from SDA’s and Mormons, who would be more likely to fall into the group you’re talking about.
Please explain your question in relation to my comment? No the gates of hell will not prevail against the church because it is instituted by Jesus Christ the rock. he is the cornerstone and the only foundation. It is founded upon the Gospel of God. The church is made up of living stones - born of God and chosen by Him before the creation of the world for whom Jesus died. Jesus Christ is the head of the church - no one else - and the saved ones are the body. The body of Christ. If you disagree with any of this then you need to read your Bible carefully. I am only repeating what the Bible says. And I am not your Bro. I am female and have been signing my comments with a K. As per the Kay in the address. @patriceagulu8315
@patriceagulu8315Oh? Do you believe that there are 100+ Catholic denominations? Which one is the true one? This question would be incomprehensible to Catholics. Yet they would have to believe such if they cite that number.
The number you cited comes from a sociological study that defines denominations such that a single denomination that is present in 2+ countries is 2+ denominations even if they are organisationally connected. The real number of denominations is orders of magnitude less, and many denominations believe that others outside their own church are valid churches. The number also includes many sects that may claim to be christian but both of us would deny the title (eg JWs or Mormons).
All in all, please do not appeal to that number to make your point. If you want to make a point about protestant disunity, that point would still be made by a more accurate number. (If complete christian denominational unity was considered to be of the utmost importance even 2 denominations would be terrible.) I don't know how many denominations there are because I don't particularly care. If you want more information I recommend the video that Ready to Harvest made on the topic.
@patriceagulu8315 All Christian churches have the core truth. What Gavin would call First Rank issues. There are many groups within the one church that is the body consisting of all belivers. (There is no church where all of their members are saved and no church that contains all who are saved.) I believe that catholics who pray to saints are brothers in christ although I don't see the point. But, I would not be comfortable in a church that practiced prayer to saints as part of the liturgy. Therefore both churches that include prayers to saints and those that exclude are true churches. Judah and Israel were both God's chosen people despite their division.
@patriceagulu8315 before I can give an answer I need to know: Do you think protestants are christian? If the answer is no then there is no point discussing further.
“Pray to God alone”. Amen!
People do what they want to do and disregard the will of God. Just because other people do it doesn’t mean you have to do it.
Ask God for discernment…praying to anyone other than God is a dishonor to our creator.
Honoring the saints honors God according to the Psalmist.
“God is wonderful in his saints: the God of Israel is he who will give power and strength to his people. Blessed be God.” (Psa 67:36, DRC)
It is zero sum thinking to assume that asking for intercession from and giving honor to the saints diminishes adoration for God and precludes participation in the unbloody sacrifice of Malachi 1:11 which is reserved to God alone. Taken to its conclusion this line of thinking would lead to the gnostic belief that creation is bad and furthermore that God could not receive or deserve glory for his wondrous works.
Thankfully, the Psalmist corrects this false notion.
“The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands.” (Psa 18:2, DRC)
“How great are thy works, O Lord ? thou hast made all things in wisdom: the earth is filled with thy riches.” (Psa 103:24, DRC)
They get around that one by claiming they are simply asking for prayer, as they would ask you for prayer. Yet they admit that they think prayers of saints carry much more weight w/ God and our piddly prayers are weak. I've heard them use, "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much", ad nauseum. They don't understand that we are the righteous man, or that we the living Christians, are the saints.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Clearly Job shows some prayers are more effective.
“Take unto you therefore seven oxen and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust, and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath.” (Job 42:8, DRC)
If Job is just, how much more just are those in the kingdom of heaven where they are like the angels?
“Amen I say to you, there hath not risen among them that are born of women a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is the lesser in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” (Mat 11:11, DRC)
“Neither can they die any more for they are equal to the angels and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” (Luk 20:36, DRC)
Why do you have such a low view of the saints? Do you not know:
“God is wonderful in his saints: the God of Israel is he who will give power and strength to his people. Blessed be God.” (Psa 67:36, DRC)
Except that every ancient church disagrees with you, including the martyrs of the faith.
@@StanleyPinchak We are the saints who are called to pray for one another. If the saints in heaven can pray and intercede for us, why was God looking for someone here on earth to intercede or stand in the gap in Ezekiel 22:30. Also, it is clear in the Bible that believers in Jesus Christ are the saints. And yes, many of those believers are in heaven but God didn’t ask us nor Jesus said to pray to them. Jesus clearly said to pray to the Father.
Love all your videos brother!! A true follower of Christ! Thank you!
In regards to prayers to the saints - there are over 2000 prayers to the saints etched into the catacombs and intercessory prayer to the Saints is found in all of the early liturgies.
Are we really to believe that these things were added into the fabric of Christian belief and not actually long-standing practice once the liturgies were formalized?
In that regard it seems highly improbable that prayer to the saints was a pagan practice that somehow crept into Christian faith and worship. Indeed EVERY Church that has an organic connection to Christ (eg: the orthodox, orientals, Coptic and Catholic) through apostolic succession and the laying on of hands embrace the practice.
Just seems improbable that these churches got it wrong - especially when one considers that these were the same Christian’s being fed to the Lions for their faith (at least the Christian’s who were writing these prayers in the Catacombs).
I am trying to be a charitable as you towards catholic apologists but man I have tried to watch dozens of videos they put out and I am to the point that they are being disingenuous.
@patriceagulu8315 Incorrect.
My interest in Catholic apologetics was sparked many years ago when I heard one of them on the radio. This guy obviously knew a great deal more than I did, so that got me to read all the major apologists. Something about their arguments didn't sit right with me, but I held out the possibility that I was wrong and they were right, and one day I would see they were right. That day never came.
I watched Joe's last reply on this, the whole hour and a half, and watched it twice. I've always wanted to know how Catholics justify praying to saints and esp. Mary. Even w/ the apocryphal scriptures of Macabees and Tobit, it still didn't make sense. Macabees is a dream and says a saint, or righteous departed man is praying for them. Tobit talks about angels and is said to back the scriptures in Revelation, where the angel is collecting the prayers of the saints as incense. The prayers of the saints are our prayers, as far as the bible ever states. It's an angel collecting them, not us praying to saints in heaven for wishes to be granted, or passed on to God.
@joeoleary9010 that's basically my experience. They are smart people but they always commit to really suspicious arguments that typically involve something like strawman or conflating unrelated theological issues and I just see it time and time again.
@@joeoleary9010 I spent a lot of time w/ Catholic sources, and still do. Like watching Joe's channel, esp. this debate. I prayed, and was open to where ever the Lord led me. It's not that I think our side isn't a hot mess to, but I could not attest to the doctrines of the RCC. We don't have a choice either, esp. w/ Marian dogmas, we have to agree that we believe them all to be a member. I became more convinced from CAtholic sources, than getting info second hand from protestant ones, that there is major error accrued through the centuries.
Hey Gavin, I really think you should make a video addressing the claim by Catholics that the entire church fathers were Roman Catholic, it’s a really popular claim among Catholics and I’ve never seen a protestant apologist really tackle that claim.Highly recommended for later!!
Were they? Since there was only Catholicism to choose from before the reformation, I think that was it?
@@jasminemariedarling or they were just Christian’s alone not tied fully under one church ?
@@jasminemariedarling Yeah, that's the lofty claim of Catholics, who claim all of Christiandom from the very time of the apostles, even though the bible says differently. The RCC church wasn't in full swing until at least the 4th century. By the time of the reformers, it was mostly Catholicism, simply because the RCC had gained all the power and any protestant sects were hunted down and killed. The only reason the reformation happened is because God willed it and the invention of the printing press enabled it. The RCC lost it's stranglehold on Christianity, through the might of the sword and merger of church and state.
@@MrKingishere1 It's not just the church fathers who were all Catholic, the bible is Catholic, not only compiled it, they wrote it I'm told. The apostles were also Catholic and Jesus instituted the Catholic church from day one when he handed the keys to Peter. I've heard it all. It's all Catholic, every last bit of it. Not only that, it's a perfect church, w/ all authority, w/out any error in doctrine and infallible. So there's all that to address to. I've never seen a prouder sect of Christianity, except maybe the Orthodox, who don't recognize us as Christians at all, because we don't adhere to their sacred traditions. Jesus doesn't save, his word isn't transformative in regenerating us through the renewing of the word, and we can't interpret the bible bible on our own anyways. We need their church to do it for us (remember the all authority part).
@@saintejeannedarc9460 😂🤣🤣 bunch of claims and no evidence. That’s as silly as a Muslim claiming Jesus and the other prophets were Muslim. Get out of here with that nonsense bro. You’re not worth any attention as I don’t take you seriously. Jesus and the apostles would absolutely rebuke the Catholic Church today. IT WOULD BE REALLY BAD AND HUMILIATING FOR YOU GUYS
I appreciate your desire to practice good faith with your interlocutors, but I would not give Joe a pass next time if he continues to misrepresent you and the historical data in future response videos. These apologists are all adults who have chosen to engage in these debates and who need to be held to the same high standard of research and preparation before they record these videos. They should not be let off the hook for poor scholarship, logical fallacies and bad faith arguments.
Joe just put out a rebuttal video, I recommend it. He does a nice job of correcting Gavin’s errors about Origen, and showing that he did not misrepresent Gavin.
Thanks Dr. Ortlund! I think what you said at the end of your video about “prayer matters and who you pray to matters!”.
Never thought about that all the prayer examples provided in Old and New Testament are directed to God alone. Beautiful! 🙏🙌
@patriceagulu8315 go watch his videos on cannon and why that book is not included. Also if your argument was that one of 66+ texts is the only one with such evidence then my point still stands.
@patriceagulu8315 once again, I point you back to his videos on canon. Also, if you are looking for a debate bro, go some place else. This is not the platform to do it. I won’t change my mind and you won’t change yours either while going back and forth with half strung sentences and arguments. Watch more of his videos on make a decision for yourself 😃
@patriceagulu8315 I honestly have no idea what you are saying 🤷♂️
As a Presbyterian who is considering Catholicism I’ve really appreciated your work Gavin! I believe you’re very knowledgeable, articulate and sincere and it’s rly disheartening to see misunderstandings and misrepresentations from both sides which is part of the reason I really appreciate folks like you who genuinely examine and try to understand the “other side”. Thanks!
Mischaracterizations just wrongly damage one’s position and credibility and the credibility of the one being critiqued
The reply to Gavin's confusion:
ua-cam.com/video/hyHP4zpAxdU/v-deo.html
You should be looking into being a Christian, not looking at all the false religions like Calvinism and Roman Catholicism.
Just read the Bible and believe what it says plainly. 🙏 ❤️
Gavin thank you so much not only for making this response to clarify the completely incorrect views that Joe was putting into both your and Origen's mouths, but even more so for the spirit you do it in. I think a lot of people would just start name calling and pointing angry fingers after being treated the way you have been here - and not for the first time here either. But instead of responding with what most would believe is justifiable anger at what you could have easily called slander you modeled Christian compassion, and love by assuming no ill intent. It's because of this that I think your efforts have a real and tangible impact on drawing Christians of different denominations together, rather than digging the trenches that separate them even deeper.
You pursue truth and even when confronted with - what could very well be accidental - lies being told about you and your views, you're still behaving with grace and compassion. God bless you for that, and all the work you do. May it continue to knit people closer to Christ, and each other.
I am catholic. And i really appiciate you Gavin. Your attitude is so refresing. Dont take things to personal. You have good intentions and everybody knows it. I dissagree with uou. But thats allowed. And my believes doesnt say anything about your intensions. Keep up the great work.
Pastor Ortlund, you are being very kind and generous to state that the misrepresentation of your positions by Mr. Heschmeyer you do not believe to be intentional.
As a Catholic I enjoy all these back and forth videos. Let people watch these different views and make up their own minds.
"Let people watch these different views and make up their own minds." Well said. Open examination of truth is excellent.
Did you enjoy the part where he labeled your prayers as idolatry?
@theRockSalter I can handle people disagreeing with my personal views or political views or my views on which car is better. I don't take it personally. It's not like he is saying I suck personally.
@@dman7668 excellent advice sir 🙏
@@TruthUnites @9:19 you're okay with saying Mary "caused" salvation? Amen! She played an instrumental role in the incarnation. Why can she not then also be an instrumental role in bringing hope, peace, ect? If she can instrumentally bring us the Son of God alone, why can she not be an instrument in these other expressions of honor.
Catholics don't seem to grasp the difference between asking for the intercession of saints on earth whom you can contact by natural means, and trying to contact saints who have died. The assumption that saints in heaven can hear us is ascribing to them a supernatural breadth of knowledge and ability that, as far as we know, belongs only to God.
They literally surround us.
“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,” (Heb 12:1, KJVA)
And even if the saints themselves are out of ear shot there are tens of thousands of angels, certainly there is one that can relay the message.
“Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?” (Heb 1:14, KJVA)
Of course The Saints can hear our prayers and intercede for us. Revelation shows us Saints who have passed on helping those on earth through their prayers.
There’s been innumerable cases of Saints responding to and helping The Faithful throughout Church History.
This is a passage that can get overlooked in this discussion.
And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly loved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for now I have been sent to you.” And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up trembling. Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come.”
Daniel 10:11-14 ESV
The passage explains that the angel Gabriel was sent to Daniel because of Daniel's visions and prayers to God. What also can be concluded is that the angels are not omnipresent, as Gabriel says that he had to wait 21 days to go see Daniel. Therefore, the only way for an angel or saint in heaven to hear the prayers is through God. This is a clear example of a ministering spirit as described in Hebrews 1:14. They do surround us and help minister to us, but to say that Hebrews 1:14 is teaching that angels can hear everybody's prayers similatanously on their own is adding to the text.
@@MrWesford A clear command or example from the Apostles would help. I don't doubt that the saints in heaven are employed in praying for us. That they have the ability to hear millions of supplicants on earth suggests that they possess a godlike ability. Of course God could give them that ability, or He could have His angels tell them what they need to intercede about. But all of this is sheer speculation without a hint of a command or an example from Scripture, and as in so many other cases, the Catholic Church has elevated pious speculation to the status of mandatory, non-negotiable doctrine on her own authority. The "countless examples through history" carry no weight whatsoever. There have been superstitions and delusions throughout history that carried their own tales of success, plausible or otherwise. We need a clear command from Christ or His Apostles.
And that's not even to start on the dangers of habitually praying to beings other than the One Whom Christ commanded us to.
@@StanleyPinchak That's possible and plausible, and also purely speculation.
This makes SO MUCH SENSE! It doesn’t tangle anything anyone says about prayer. It is crystal clear what Origen is saying re: prayer. No acrobatics, no twisty turns, no misrepresentation. I appreciate that.
Joe has a new rebuttal and the acrobatics are in full swing. I haven't gotten all the way through it, but he still maintains that Origin prayed to saints. Apparently prayer comes in 4 different kinds and only one kind goes to God alone. This is the argument he's making about Origen's teaching so far.
It would be nice if it were that easy, but it's not. I recommend watching Joe Heschemyer's rebuttal video he posted today entitled "Why Origen Believed in Intercessory Prayer to the Saints" on his Shameless Popery channel. St. Mary, undoer of knots, please pray for us!
Gavin, many in these comments laud the “good faith” discussion between you and your interlocutors. But swipes like the one Joe takes in his message really stick with me. “Gavin says…but *real* scholars say…” is remarkably dismissive of the time, money, and intellectual investment you’ve made into glorifying God as a scholar.
It really rubs me the wrong way, and I just want to say that I am remarkably impressed with your charity. I know my own sin, and I know the cockiness I can conduct myself with when I feel misrepresented.
I thank you for your example, and pray that the Lord continue to keep you from retaliation against these unnecessary insults.
As iron sharpens iron. It was a backhand jab and I don't think Gavin is too stuck on himself that he can't handle cultivating an extra helping of humility. It doesn't look bad on Gavin, it looks bad on Joe when digs like that happen. I'm far more concerned w/ the Mary worship. Joe ignored the over the top Marian prayers that Gavin raised, because these are never a problem for Catholics. I looked up the Psalteries of the Blessed Virgin Mary, that Gavin mentioned in his first video on this (a year ago). I wish he had shown examples of some of these rewritten psalms to Mary, becasue they made the other prayers seem tame. It would have shown that the CAtholic excuse of only venerating her w/ hyper dulia is not the case. There is clear and open worship, and every attribute given to God is given to Mary in these blasphemous psalters.
I appreciate how kind you were to someone who so clearly lied about you and lied about Origen. That was way beyond inadvertent misunderstanding.
I think lying might be going too far. His arguments were very lawyerly and full of rhetoric though.
Not only is it the saints praying for us and not the reverse, it also doesn't say the saints pray TO us. Like if Paul was praying and asking me to help him with something, he is going to be extremely disappointed.
Um. Ok, something is bothering me about one of the Origen quotes discussed in the video… and it’s concerning salvation. At around minute 24, the quote shown says, “for they see demons warring and fighting most keenly against the salvation of those who devote themselves to God,” ……. Um… does this mean Origen believed salvation could be lost? 😳
So according to Catholics, we pray to the saints so that they intercede to God on our behalf but the only way they can hear our prayer requests is if God reveals our prayers to them. What kind of convuluted bureaucractic system is this?
I think some believe that the saints can omnisciently or supernaturally hear our prayers in some way... which I find just as detestable in the way that it, without good evidence, elevates the saints well beyond what is indicated of them.
@@skyorrichegg Evidence 1) speaking of the angels:
“Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?” (Heb 1:14, KJVA)
Evidence 2 Jesus claim for those in the kingdom:
“Neither can they die any more for they are equal to the angels and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” (Luk 20:36, DRC)
If the dead in Christ are equal to the angels and the angels are ministering spirits to us Christians on earth, then are not the saints afforded the same ability to minister to us?
In doing so they fulfill Jesus command:
“A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” (Joh 13:34, DRC)
And
“Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.” (Jam 5:16, DRC)
@@StanleyPinchak Using those verses as a connection for an accretion like praying to the saints is quite the stretch in my opinion. Pray for one another, not to one another to get them to pray for you in heaven. Once again, I think it is fine if the saints are praying for us in heaven, if I am able to I will when I am heaven, but it is QUITE the theological stretch to stretch that to praying to those saints in heaven to get them to pray for us.
It's God's system. Don't be too critical or you will undercut praying in general. Jesus said God already knows your needs before you ask. Based on a worldly view it sounds like all prayer is completely unnecessary. Yet God wants prayers even when they don't make sense to us. I can say the same for the book of Job. Why did God specifically request prayers from Job over the other gentlemen? In short God knows everything so your complaint about asking Saints for prayer really undercuts all prayer.
@@MrPeach1 prayer's also a form of worship and communication, so there is no way that I would undercut it.
Dr. Ortlund...I have noticed a more aggressive tone toward u among Catholics u have dialogued with in the past such as Joe. The foundation of ur efforts is to seek and spread the truth of the gospel. The foundation of the effort of Catholics is to support the Catholic church, which results in a form od disingenuousness, whether consciously or unconsciously. I understand u may disagree with me given ur comments about acccusing someone of being disingenuous. But the reality is, the more effective u r at spreading the truth of the gospel and revealing errors of the Catholic church, the more aggressive (and potentially disingenuous) the responses will be. U r doing a fantastic job and u r a true blessing to so many. Don't be discouraged. Keep up the fight. U r making an impact on the lives and salvation of so many. U r in my prayers.
These Catholics apologists aren't concerned about the truth. They're loyal to church than God.
Don't judge all Catholics just on the basis of a few. Also, be aware some so called Catholic UA-cam channels are not exactly Catholic as they claimed to be. I am not a fan of Michael Lofton at all. He can't even have a civil discourse with other Catholics who disagree with his own claims. Honestly I would love to see a debate with Dr Ortlund and Brother Dimond who is a sedevacantist. That would be really interesting!!
I think that Gavin Ortlund is growing in popularity right now hence the more aggressive response from Catholic apologists. Trent Horn himself has experienced the same sort of tone
Perhaps the more aggressive tone is the result of Gavin claiming that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians adopted pagan and gnostic practices. Such scandalous and offensive claims deserve scrutiny and serious responses
@@HumanDignity10 They're hostile to him but can't refute his position. I see. You also are emotional. Refute his position then. Was he lying or not?? I hate it when people are loyal to traditions than they're loyal to God. You're the Pharisees that Jesus was talking to when he said they made the word of God of no effect by holding to their man made doctrine. Are your doctrine what the early Christians practiced or not??
"Those scandalous and offensive claims deserve scrutiny and serious response." Where are the responses that are serious?? Just ad hominems and misrepresentations. The Roman Catholics has not foundation to stand on. The church history goes against them
Catholic apologetics is really a mess. I've been following all the major professional Catholic apologists since I began re-examining the church I grew up in but didn't know much about. After a great deal of research, I've found that many of them are very disingenuous about the facts when they present Catholic teachings and history. These apologists use a lot of clever arguments and appeals to authority (Matt 16:18 is key to all their arguments), and often a great deal of doublespeak. For example, just yesterday I saw a video where a Catholic apologist, a priest no less, declared that confession to a priest isn't necessary for the forgiveness of sins, because "God can do anything." This view is nowhere found in Catholic teaching and is in fact directly contradicted by the official RCC catechism. These Catholic apologists will never admit the church was wrong about anything but will bend and stretch what good faith Christians like Gavin might say and declare it error. Never believe any apologist -- always do your own research.
Actually, the priest was correct, as confession is not required for the forgiveness of venial sins. It's mortal sins, that dull our minds and blind us to the Truth, which must be confessed through a priest.
The doctrine of the intercession of the saints is as "late" as the doctrine of the Trinity or the canon. The truth is that it is a practice deeply rooted in the apostolic Churches, tested by centuries of persecution and martyrdom and by the real experience of the community of intercessory prayer between those Saints who have died and those who were about to be killed. It expresses a communitarian vision of the Church that death cannot destroy and that unites the militant Church with the triumphant Church in the Body of Christ. Intercessory prayer takes place in Christ, by Christ and through Christ, the one who opened the gates of heaven to us and, in the transfiguration, showed us something of the cloud of witnesses and of the assembly of faithful and perfected spirits to which we have access. In the end, everything comes from Christ and goes to Christ, we can never forget that. In Mary's case, it is possible and understandable that there are exaggerations here and there. Mary is Mother of God (of Jesus in whom the fullness of divinity dwells) and Mother of the Church, that is, of all who follow him. Who has never exaggerated when praising their mother?
Amen! Good summary.
The difference is that the trinity is clearly expressed in the Bible. Prayer to the saints is not and is an accretion. Paul would lose his mind. Also theotokos really means “God-Bearer”, not mother of God. It was changed to mother of God later on. God-Bearer points to Christ and His humanity, it glorifies Christ, has nothing to do with Mary, at least not originally.
Advocates of praying to saints and angels occasionally suggest that people like Origen were only criticizing offering a higher form of prayer to created beings, whereas it was acceptable to offer them a lower form of prayer. But the burden of proof is on the shoulders of those who want us to accept that view. Origen generally just uses a term like "pray" or "prayer" without further qualification, which suggests that he didn't have the relevant sort of qualified sense in mind. He makes a distinction between how we should pray "more" to the Father than to the Son (Against Celsus, 5:11). Henry Chadwick's rendering of the closing sentence of section 5:4 of Against Celsus has Origen writing, "We will even make our petitions to the very Logos himself and offer intercession to him and give thanks and also pray to him, if we are capable of a clear understanding of the absolute and the relative sense of prayer." (Origen: Contra Celsum [New York, New York: Cambridge University Press, 2003], 266) We make that kind of distinction between praying to the Father and praying to the Son when interpreting Origen because Origen tells us that he held that view. By contrast, we haven't been given any evidence that he believed in some other form of prayer to be offered to saints and angels. To the contrary, when responding to Celsus' criticism of Christians for not praying to angels, Origen doesn't respond by explaining that they do pray to angels with a form of prayer that's lesser than the form offered to God. Rather, he just denies that Christians pray to angels (and other created beings). And these principles I've applied to Origen can be applied to other sources as well. It's not as though it's just a higher form of prayer to saints and angels that's absent in scripture and the earlier patristic sources. Rather, there isn't a lower form of prayer to saints and angels either. And the Biblical and extrabiblical condemnations of attempting to contact the deceased and praying to angels don't add any qualifiers to the effect that it's only wrong to pray to them in a higher sense, whereas we can pray to them in a lesser sense. Instead, the evidence suggests that in the context Protestants and Catholics are focused on, the relevant Biblical and extrabiblical sources only prayed to God.
Wow! Clearly have a lot to learn. This subject is new to me 🤔
Origen explicitly makes this differentiation, it’s not an assumption.
“Yet if we are offer thanksgiving to men who are saints, how much more should we give thanks to Christ, who has under the Father's will conferred so many benefactions upon us? Yes and intercede with Him as did Stephen when he said, "Lord, set not this sin against them." In imitation of the father of the lunatic we shall say, "I request, Lord, have mercy" either on my son, or myself, or as the case may be. But if we accept prayer in its FULL MEANING, we may not ever pray to any begotten being, not even to Christ himself, but only to the God and Father of All to whom our Savior both prayed himself, as we have already instanced, and teaches us to pray.” -Origen of Alexandria, On Prayer 10, emphasis mine
@@bman5257 Gavin's video cites the phrase you've highlighted, and I cited other material in Origen in which he distinguishes between types of prayer. That's not the issue. Rather, the issue is whether he makes a distinction that supports the practice of praying to saints and angels. Nothing in the passage you've cited does that. As I explained in my post above, it's not enough to argue that Origen differentiated between types of prayer. You have to demonstrate that he differentiated between types in a way that supports praying to saints and angels.
But maybe you highlighted the wrong words in your quote. Maybe you meant to emphasize Origen's opening comments about giving thanks to saints. If so, you're taking him out of context. As the sentences just before what you quoted demonstrate, Origen was addressing interactions with people on earth, "intercession and thanksgiving, not only to saintly men but also to others". That's not prayer in any relevant sense. If two people on earth have a conversation, involving thanksgiving or whatever else, that isn't the sort of prayer Protestants and Catholics have in mind when they debate this subject.
This is a common and honestly extremely irritating argument that Catholics tend to make with doctrine. They know that many of their practices seem to be very idolatrous on the face of it and go expressly against scripture, so to get around this, they subcategorize all these concepts so they can get around it being a sin.
So it's basically like "oh, there are different types of prayer, there are different types of worship, there are different types of sins, there are different types of x.
It's the apologetic equivalent of "Yes, but actually no". They say it's just nuance, which is a fine, but the problem is you can nuance your way into justifying anything.
"Oh, you say me stealing this money is a sin? Well, actually, there are many types of procuring property without the concent of the owner, and not all of them are sinful, duh!
Prayer had a much wider meaning pre-Reformation, though. For you to say “that’s not prayer in any relevant sense” is exactly why this is a non-issue and why Catholics have started saying “We ask the saints to pray for us” rather than we “pray to the saints” -- it accommodates the evolution of the English language and what we intend when we do it. If anything, the issue is not us asking for intercession of the saints per se, but whether or not our requests are made known to them through the Logos.
St. Augustine, who was there at Hippo and Carthage when the Church, Catholic Bishops meeting in snyods, decided (declared) the canon of scripture. The martyrs only know our prayers through the power of God, offerings made to God in the name of Peter, Paul (and those Saints who have died; Rev 5:8, 8:3)
“As to our paying honor to the memory of the martyrs, and the accusation of Faustus, that we worship them instead of idols, I should not care to answer such a charge, were it not for the sake of showing how Faustus, in his desire to cast reproach on us, has overstepped the Manichaean inventions, and has fallen heedlessly into a popular notion found in Pagan poetry, although he is so anxious to be distinguished from the Pagans. For in saying that we have turned the idols into martyrs, be speaks of our worshipping them with similar rites, and appeasing the shades of the departed with wine and food… *It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers.* But we build altars not to any martyr, but to the God of martyrs, although it is to the memory of the martyrs. No one officiating at the altar in the saints’ burying-place ever says, We bring an offering to thee, O Peter! or O Paul! or O Cyprian! The offering is made to God, who gave the crown of martyrdom, while it is in memory of those thus crowned. The emotion is increased by the associations of the place, and. love is excited both towards those who are our examples, and towards Him by whose help we may follow such examples. We regard the martyrs with the same affectionate intimacy that we feel towards holy men of God in this life, when we know that their hearts are prepared to endure the same suffering for the truth of the gospel. There is more devotion in our feeling towards the martyrs, because we know that their conflict is over; and we can speak with greater confidence in praise of those already victors in heaven, than of those still combating here.” Augustine, Against Faustus, 20:21 (A.D. 400).
You don't understand their hostility because you're a genuinely nice guy as well as very well informed. People who depend upon deception to keep doing what they're doing are often very hostile toward anyone who speaks the truth. Contrary to your channel name, lol - Truth also tends to expose the baddies among us, and it should.
And just let me add, he's not only a nice guy. Truth means everything to Gavin.
I see this kind of argument a lot from both Catholics and Protestants, but “you’re being hostile (upset, etc) so your position is wrong” is a non sequitur. People are also hostile when they hear what they perceive to be lies
Joe Heschemeyer was being hostile? If this is Gavins point, then I am totally unsympathetic.
@@michaelharrington6698of course intellectually honesty and common decency is something that people like you and Joe who are blinded by ideology cannot emulate.
I might be one of the people Gavin is viewing as "hostile" because I wrote about how I have come to doubt Ortlund's work after I read the book "Mary in Early Christian Faith and Devotion" by Stephen Shoemaker, which is a book Gavin references in a previous video on the Assumption of Mary. I have read the entire book and I think Gavin misrepresents many things in that book and he cherry picked quotes to favor his view. I don't know if it was intentional, but it was quite upsetting for me to see how egregiously he misrepresented what is in that book. I have seen posts from Gavin where he invites people to question his scholarship, yet when they actually do it, he seems to get offended.
Joe just released another video, "Proving that the Saints in Heaven Hear Our Prayer". I don't think he proves this, but it doesn't matter. Catholics will always pray to saints because their church tradition has taught it for a long time. It definitely wasn't taught from the beginning, or we would see some scriptural precedence for it, and we don't. We have a different understanding of who the prayers of the saints are that the angel releases, in Revelation. They are our prayers, the living saints, and the bible is always addressing the living Christians when it talks of saints. So protestants don't pray to saints, because we do believe in the foundation of the apostles and how they taught the church. They did not do or teach this practice. It became a practice several centuries after the church was established. It's a tradition, and one that we don't follow. Let all be blessed and do all to the glory of God and the benefit of those who struggle in this world.
One of the things I appreciate the most about your work here is that along with your pastor’s heart you bring a scholar’s discernment and breadth of study to popular conversations. We need much more of that all around. Many of the other apologists, both Catholic and Protestant, just don’t bring that.
I'm sorry Gavin but Mary is NOTthe cause of salvation. God is.
"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things" Romans 11 vs 36
God chose and blessed a woman through whom he birthed His Son into the world. She was the agent through whom Jesus by human birth came into the world.
A postman's role is not to write the letter but to deliver it.
Mary deliverd the Saviour but she was not the cause of salvation.
"Salvation comes from God"
(Jonah 2 vs. 8)
I would be curious for him to explain his comment there further as well. I seriously, seriously doubt that he views Mary as co-redemptrix with Christ and that that is not what he is agreeing with when he agrees with Irenaeus that Mary was "the cause of our salvation" but rather it is simply what he said: that Mary was the cause of our salvation in being the human agent through which Jesus incarnated. In that sense God is still the ultimate cause of our salvation in choosing Mary as that woman through whom Jesus would be born, but there is still a sense in which Mary is the cause, just not the ultimate cause, which, as in all things, is always God. In the same sense I could say my father's testimony to me was the cause of my salvation, but obviously that pales in comparison to the ultimate cause of the grace of God that spoke to me through my father's testimony and transformed my heart into a heart that could hear and receive the Gospel, but it is pretty ridiculous to just gloss over my father being used as a vehicle of God's grace to me, just as we should continue to spread the Gospel to all we can.
@@skyorrichegg Mary was simply as you say the vehicle and as such was greatly blessed and privileged but she did not cause salvation. God chose her and he used her as a vehicle. If a person has a very important work to do somewhere he may catch a train to get there and on his arrival get going on unfolding his plan. . But the train did not set up that plan. That was already done before he caught the train. The train had no causal effect in relation to the man's work other than to get him there.
Jesus said how important words are and discussions like this bear out that truth. Otherwise truth can be obscured and/or sent in the wrong direction.
I can only repeat that scripture from Romans
"From Him and for Him and to Him are all things"
IMHO, either Joe is deliberately slanting (misrepresenting/lying about) Gavin’s position, or he is incompetent to discern detailed arguments.
Do you believe there is a substantive difference between asking my wife/Christian brother to pray for me and Praying to God? Would you grant to the Catholics that same distinction between asking the saints’ to pray for them and Prayers to God?
Have you watched Joe’s videos?
You should adopt Trent Horn’s rebuttal rule. I haven’t gotten into your rebuttal yet but I have a feeling it’s going to get confusing with you rebutting his rebuttal of you 😅
It seems crazy that believers would step around (God's gift) the Holy Spirit and plead to a mere mortal for help. To me, it's similar to God giving His commandments and the elders 'tweaking' it for Him.
We don't sidestep the Holy Spirit. We cross ourselves at the begging of each prayer and say "In the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." We also have longer, formal prayers to the Holy Spirit and include the Holy Spirit in our creed. We have the ability to both worship God and honor saints. Regarding "asking mere mortals for help", I do that all the time. Today I asked my husband to help me read some small numbers on a prescription because my eyesight is getting worse. It's hubris not to ask mere mortals for help.
It’s crazy to think that God would use mere angels as messengers when he could just do it himself… wait.
@@HumanDignity10 Thank you, I appreciate that.
@MrWesford Thank you, I hadn't thought that far.
@@MrWesfordthey are messengers, not objects of prayer, which is worship.
Thank you Dr. Ourtlund!
5:42 Why would a Roman Catholic historian make any kind of judgement on how good or bad Eucharistic devotion was? Can you provide a quote from one? And are they claiming that all Eucharistic devotion at that time was bad? And in what way was it bad? You mention the bread and the wine - so they are talking about the practice of only providing communion under one species? How is that an example of an excess? Catholics continue this practice to this day. And with regard to frequency, Catholics are only required to receive communion once a year, even today! And you mentioned superstition - what superstition?
Then, for some reason, you say this totally misses the point - that there are these prayers that go too far. This is perplexing, because it seems that this shows you didn't actually listen to Joe's video. Because that was not his response to your point at all. He compares some of these prayers that use excessively flowery language to love letters. And that we are not to just compare the poetic language like they display to actual statements of theology. You seem to miss this point altogether.
And yes, this is a little bit of a concession in this point, that some of the language goes to far. But that there are some excesses does not negate or invalidate any of the other legitimate prayers to Mary. You are pointing at the exceptions and making them the rule. Then using this as a cudgel to beat Catholics over the head with about not praying to the saints.
Thank you for covering this topic! It's a very important issue that needs to be addressed. You did an excellent job of fully covering Origen's teachings on the matter. It's no doubt that he believed that prayer was to be given to God alone.
You had a great comment in here about the angel in Daniel being delayed and how even angels aren't omnipotent. I tried to reply to it, but I think it got filtered out or deleted somehow. Which is so unfortunate, because it's so relevant. I'll pop the reply I tried to make to it here.
I was just thinking of this very set of scriptures, about how angels are also not omnipresent, but can be delayed. The Catholic argument would of course be the glorified saints and esp. Mary are above the angels and have better powers. Except the scriptures say, "man is made a little lower than the angels". I'm sure they have a workaround for that as well, but it's good enough for me. Let's take Mary, who is the object of incredible hyper veneration and would be bombarded w/ millions of prayers every day. Somehow, she can assimilate all that, just like God can. She can keep them all straight, then pass them to God on our behalf.
Something else I was just pondering is when Gavin in his original video mentioned the Psaltery of the Blessed Virgin Mary, to look it up. He cited some very venerating prayers, but these Marian psalms are like nothing I've ever seen. I kind of wish I hadn't looked them up. The psaltery was the precurser to the rosary, but it's available as a CAtholic app now, so still in circulation and still being prayed to Mary, giving her every attribute of God and even saying her breasts had "deific milk".
@saintejeannedarc9460 You're correct that post got accidentally deleted. Should I retype the post? Do you think it would be beneficial to others?
@@clayw70 You made excellent points and I'd just been thinking of those Daniel scriptures. Please repost.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 I just did. Please read and comment. I tried to get all the main points back in. Let me know if it's lacking anything from the original.
@saintejeannedarc9460 You're additional points are absolutely correct!
Philippians 4:6-7 NKJV Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. - Here we have clear instruction to pray to God.
There are many scriptures that clearly tell us to pray to God. Jesus gave us a model of how to pray, and it was to God and not to saints. The apostles talked of prayer, and instructed us to pray for one another, and to pray for them in their ministry. Never did the apostles teach to pray to departed saints either. It doesn't matter. CAtholics love the idea of doing it. Their church teaches it, it's their tradition and they are crazy about the idea of it. They have no clear scripture. Just a bit of very obscure, maybe kinda sorta, but they pry it out of these murky scriptures anyway and claim it's in the bible. Mostly they do it out of tradition. These traditions were modeled after paganism, but they get upset at that.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 "Our Father, who are in heaven . . ." Jesus taught us to pray to the Father and not his mother.
@@chrisazure1624 They could easily argue that Mary was still alive then, so Jesus wouldn't have used that example. He didn't model praying to any other saints either though.
@saintejeannedarc9460 True. The idea of appealing to his mother, to appeal to himself seems a but absurd in the first place.
Early Christians prayed to saints, but a 21st century UA-cam preacher knows better.
The Jews, prophets, Christ,Apostles , disciples prayed to God. There is no need to pray to saints.
@@rjdez3589 That's not what early Christians believed.
@@fantasia55 tell me what biblical text backs you up.
@@rjdez3589 Christians were praying to saints centuries before the Catholic Church created the New Testament in AD 382.
@fantasia55 so catholics wrote the New Testament?. Lol, ok. Nowhere in the NT does it say to pray to saints. The Old Testament actually prohibited the living from talking to the dead. It is known that many pagan practices made their way into the Roman church.
It's not in the Bible, so...
I love this. Listening to you is a breath of fresh air. I always anticipate your videos. God bless you and your family ❤🙏
There are others that were looking for Gavin's original video that Joe (on the Shameless Popery) is replying to, so here is the link: ua-cam.com/video/TQRQ-bbmVvI/v-deo.html Gavin has supplied links to Joe's rebuttal videos in the description box above.
First mention ever of a biblical canon - St Athanasius (he venerated the blessed mother and "prayed" to saints)
Second ever mention of a biblical canon - Pope Damasus (he venerated the blessed mother and "prayed" to saints)
Both of these church fathers fervently fought heresies.
Already in the year 376, we find Jerome writing to Pope Damasus suggesting the primacy of the bishop of Rome...
"Yet, though your greatness terrifies me, your kindness attracts me. From the priest I demand the safe-keeping of the victim, from the shepherd the protection due to the sheep. Away with all that is overweening; let the state of Roman majesty withdraw. My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. But since by reason of my sins I have betaken myself to this desert which lies between Syria and the uncivilized waste, I cannot, owing to the great distance between us, always ask of your sanctity the holy thing of the Lord. Consequently, I here follow the Egyptian confessors who share your faith, and anchor my frail craft under the shadow of their great argosies. I know nothing of Vitalis; I reject Meletius; I have nothing to do with Paulinus. He that gathers not with you scatters; he that is not of Christ is of Antichrist."
St Joan of Arc, one of the most amazing people to ever live, venerated the blessed mother and "prayed" to saints. In fact, she claimed to receive messages from Saint Margaret, Saint Catherine, and Saint Michael. She also fought heresy.
In St Joan's letter to the Hussites - a group of early protestants, she begins with her usual signature "Jesus, Mary." She continues with the following:
"You corrupt the sacraments of the Church, you mutilate the articles of the Faith, you destroy churches, you break and burn statues [of the saints] which were created as memorials.....you persecute and plan to overthrow and destroy this Faith which God Almighty, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have raised, founded, exalted, and enlightened a thousand ways through a thousand miracles......if you would prefer to return to the Catholic faith and the original light, then send me your ambassadors and I will tell them what you need to do; if not however, and if you stubbornly wish to resist the spur,n9 keep in mind what damages and crimes you have committed and await me, who will mete out suitable repayment with the strongest of forces both human and Divine.
St Joan said the statues were created as memorials. There is no mention of worship.
There are thousands of years of history and tradition that cannot be undone with one "accretion" called sola scriptura. Furthermore, the church always has and always will have problems. It will be this way until Jesus comes again.
Pagan idolatry, however, is a preposterous claim. You may say that some Catholics take Marian veneration too far, but I could just as easily say some protestants preach a false Jesus who is essentially a genie who can make you rich *cough*Joel Osteen*cough*. If you ask me, this is an even greater perversion...
As for ad hominem attacks, those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. A proper look into Martin Luther's history will reveal some questionable details. Lloyd de Jongh has covered this on his channel, and he is an Anglican.
@@franciscorafael2582 I simply provided the link for Gavin's original video. I'm not sure why all this addressed to me?
Gavin, Catholic here who really appreciates your content and the approach to discussions that you model! I’m also a fan of Joe’s and looking forward to his response to this since you seem to be correct in your reading of Origen and I’m interested to see how he explains his reading. One criticism I would offer here is that I think you go overboard in your claims of misrepresentation in a rather unhelpful way. To take just one example - Joe addressed your pagan origins of Marian devotion comment - and then you took issue with that and said it wasn’t even the focus of your video. From a Catholic perspective though, it’s really problematic that you would throw that claim out there and then not bother to try and back it up. We hear that thrown at us a lot, and I think that Joe felt (rightly) that your viewers would likely just accept that idea uncritically. As an aside, I would love to see a dialogue between you two in the future on Mary - I really enjoyed the ones you had on Church History and the Papacy! Peace!
thanks for the comment! I think its fair to respond to the concern of pagan influence, but not AS THOUGH I had developed an argument for it, and making it the framing of the whole response
Thank you so much for this video AND all of the others that I will be BINGE watching talking about the Roman Catholic Church. This year...after 28 years of marriage and 8 kids....my husband and kids are working through the membership class to join the Catholic church......we've been Protestants until this year and I am having such a hard time understanding WHY they are doing this. Your videos have helped me to NOT THINK THAT IT'S JUST ME and that I"M CRAZY for disagreeing with them! Thank you for taking the time to educate those of us about these issues so that we can better understand and better argue our Protestant side. THANK YOU!
God bless you all. May the intercession of St. Joseph protect your family during this period of transition.
Welcome to the one true Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ. I pray for your discernment and guidance through this passage.
@@andonlal This person said she *doesn't* want to join the Catholic church. If you want to be an evangelist you have to actually listen to what people say.
Why do they even question the prayers to saints?...prayers to saints are humble requests, totally different from worshiping God at Mass and the Holy Eucharist at the Lord's Day..
Or there could be the misunderstood idea of a saint.
Catholic Saints number in the tens of thousands. These saints are not "mere" men and women.
Saints made Christianity alive and real, that goes beyond the abstract of religion and philosophy.
Saints made a deep impression not only in Church and faith-related matters, but also in the history of thoughts, in the evolution of the society, in political, economic and human events.
They are men and women with spiritual strength and faith, who sacrificed their existence, giving up everything else, sacrificed themselves to God’s will and the sake of their brothers.
They contributed to the Christianization of Europe and to the birth of the Western society.
Saint Benedict:
Founder of the Benedictine order, considered the father of the Western monasticism.
He created a community of men who shared his same spiritual yearning and brotherly charity. Many centers for prayer and centers of culture and assistance to the poor were built. The solitude of hermits turned into a communion of men, with their intents, their strength, their faith, which set an example of strength and effect for all humankind of that time and the following centuries.
St. Ignatius Loyola:
He founded the Jesuits with the aim of proclaiming the Gospel in charity and truth, placing an emphasis on interior renewal. They brought the evangelic message to the whole world with their missionary activities.
Francis of Assisi:
His love for Jesus led him to give up everything he had, dedicating his own life to prayer, work and preaching. Consecrated to poverty, he wanted to follow Jesus’ steps, which he could recognize in every suffering person. We owe him the foundation of mendicant orders, united by the vow of poverty.
Saint Joan of Arc:
Joan had a major role in the Hundred Years’ war, in the deep political crisis caused by the Western Schism and the conflicts between France and England.
She was sent by God to lead the French army in battle. Her example to us testifies that the love for your own country can be compared to a Christian value; you must always fight for the truth and not for power. She at the age of 17 ended the Hundred Years War.
Saint Teresa of Avila:
She was the founder of the monks and friar of the Carmelites, who chose to dedicate their whole lives to prayer, and to turn life itself into a prayer.
She was the first woman to be recognized as Doctor of the Church, and contributed to the renovation of the Church itself by offering a new model of charity and interpretation of the Gospel, and choosing a religious life made of austerity and joy, strictness, solitude, in a deep union between mystic and apostolic life.
I highly recommend the Catechism in a Year podcast instead of Gavin! He doesn’t have the full picture!
This isn't dirrectly to do with the video , I plan to watch it later, But in your opinion who is the leading protestant today? If I could make a suggestion, there is an elderly protestant church leader in the US who I love in christ named Chuck Swindol. My suggestion is perhaps you could make a positive video about protestants in adition to your videos advocating protestism. I don't know of any other 'man of God' that who is as relentless as Chuck Swindol in getting his heart right for God. So there is my suggestion. God bless you also Gavin for your heart, I was seriously considering Orthodox Christianity untill I found your videos.
I remember reading some Chuck Swindol books, decades ago. Some of the lessons really stayed w/ me. I didn't know he was still around.
Always encouraged by your patience in the midst of gross misrepresentation
I think Gavin does well, I am not sure what anyone can do to tell Roman Catholics to read scripture as it's God breathed and they do not put it first. I was Raised Catholic , none of my siblings read the bible as Catholics, I have 3 siblings , they all rely on the Roman Church .The bible is the only truth. God bless and read the word of God for yourself. I was saved by the reading of God's word (BIBLE) not anyone's teaching.
Check out shameless popery !!
The only Bible verse that means anything to Catholics is Matthew 16:18, which, ironically, they use to discredit the Bible over the authority of people who were born long after the Bible was written.
Anglican scholar on the ubiquity of prayer to the saints in the 4th century: “I beg the reader to notice that these Fathers which have just been quoted represent every part of the then world. Nazianzen, Nyssen, Chrysostom, and Basil at Constantinople and in Asia Minor, Ambrose at Milan, Augustine on the African coast, Victricius at Rouen in France. Is it possible that all these should have at the same time invented a new practice, and taught it to the people, and yet that there should not be the least intimation on their parts that there was anything unusual in their teaching?
And what, perhaps, is still more remarkable, no one was found to enter a protest, so far as we have any record, either in the East or West; and the one man that came the nearest to doing so, Vigilantius, was looked upon by the whole Church as a heretic for his denial of what was considered a doctrine of the faith.
…Now we must most carefully remember the exceedingly conservative character of all the Fathers of the fourth century. It was the time of the Council of Nice and the years immediately succeeding it, and I think I cannot better set forth the unlikeliness of all these Fathers having simultaneously adopted and taught an unheard-of practice.” (Henry Percival, (Anglican) Invocation of the Saints, p. 169-170, 177)
They will not acknowledge this because it destroys their position without even having to argue about it.
There wasn't silence from the fourth century onward. See my earlier comments in this thread about sources before the fourth century who seem to have only prayed to God and sources from the fourth century onward who held that view. Vigilantius was a church leader, and Jerome acknowledged that other church leaders supported him. Matthew Dal Santo's book that I cited earlier and other sources I've cited refer to many patristic and medieval individuals who doubted the cult of the saints in various ways, including prayer to saints. Opposition to praying to saints persisted up to the time of the Reformation among some sources. It was widespread among the Waldensians, Lollards, and Hussites. The opposition to praying to saints and angels from the fourth century onward is much more substantial than the support for the practice before the fourth century. It's unreasonable to be unmoved by the lack of prayer to saints and angels prior to the fourth century, then expect other people to be so moved by an alleged lack of the opposite position for a shorter period of time afterward.
@@jasonengwer8923Who is the first Christian saint to explicitly say we can’t pray to the saints?
Claiming there was no one but a lowly protestor for the practice, who the church conveniently labeled as a heretic, is a convenient argument. History belongs to the victors, as they say. There were many who contested the practice. Mostly they would be considered as heretics, and so discredited. Some were killed. Those who had repute, they are just ignored and since history belongs to the victors, it is just claimed there were no opponents. Those in high regard, like Origen, they just totally twist his words and pretend he agreed.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 “Who the Church conveniently labeled as a heretic.” So it’s not a heresy that we have prexistent souls, the Son and the Spirit are subordinate to the Son, everyone will be saved, and that there will be multiple Falls. LOL
I am a 66 book adherent and do pray FOR the angles and saints, even for their life as it was/is/willbe (according to my perspective), as well preach the gospel to the whole world around me (yes, even plants and animals). To ask of anyone besides the creator (that sustains all things) be they presently dead or alive seems like asking the impossible from our broken state, but I do appreciate the prayers of my brothers and sisters.
Dear Gavin, in regard to your problem with "Mary placating Jesus", what do you suppose was happening at the Wedding Feast of Cana? Our Lady "changed" God's time frame to begin His ministry ahead of schedule. If she can do that, she can also exercise other influence over Him - AS IS NATURAL BETWEEN A MOTHER AND SON. As a human mother can appeal to her son to intercede, change, and placate her son, so it is with Our Lady and Jesus. Christ IS STILL HUMAN. Mary is STILL HIS Mother. To pray is simply to "communicate". The members of the Body of Christ communicate with one another, except that in this Body, the communication's purpose is ultimately directed to the Trinity. Once again, Gavin has failed to appreciate the Incarnation. Christ did not become man so Gavin can whitewash and empty what is natural between a mother and a son. Yet, he is essentially arguing for exactly that between Christ and His Mother. This is a major error on his part. Once again, Gavin shows that protestantism falls on a major teaching of authentic Christianity. Our Lady's "power" comes through her HUMAN relationship with her son. And since the Son has united His sacred humanity with his divinity, Our Lady *by virtue of the common humanity which she shares which Jesus and which she communicates to her Son* has the means to access the Godhead in a way that no other Christian has. If Gavin has a problem with that, he needs to complain to Jesus, not to (or about) Joe Heschmeyer.
Amen 🙏
I have been thinking the same thing, and you said it beautifully. Thank you.
Didn't Joseph have the same right to placate Jesus as Mary?
While he was alive, Catholics used to come to Padre Pio and ask him to pray for them. Padre Pio would counsel them to pray to their guardian angel, who would then take the prayer to Padre Pio (who apparently existed in heaven while he was on earth?) , and then, apparently, Pio would pray to God for the requested intercession. Or perhaps it was the extended version: Pray to guardian angel, to pray to Pio, to pray to Mary, to pray to Jesus, to pray to God the Father, in hope that He would rubber-stamp the intercession. There are the byzantine lengths that prayer to the saints can evolve into.
Do you have a source for that, that Pater Pio said this?
Google LEARN RELIGIONS SEND ME YOUR ANGEL ...........info is there
No matter how you spin it, the protestant view is that prayers and praise to the saints is a grave error. How can the new covenant church universally accept this grave error so early in her history? And also at the same time destroy pagan religion, define the NT and details of Christology and the Trinity? It seems wildly implausible that these two things could happen simultaneously.
facts
Exactly, I find it a bit hypocritical for Gavin to take offense when he is accusing Catholic and Orthodox Christians of hitching up with pagans and gnostics. Does he not realize how offensive that is?
Dude .... I love how much charity and grace you give to your debate opponents, but in this case I think it's unearned. I went and tried to watch his videos in which he "debunked" you, and it was hard, I didn't even get through the whole thing in either case. His attitude, tone, rhetoric, etc. all reek of the same energy and spirit that I remember eating up from atheists "debunking" Christianity and the bible (back when I was agnostic.). I thank God for your media ministry here on UA-cam, I often share your videos with my wife.
His comment section is filled with "pray the rosary for Gavin to convert" and other nonsense, but all I can think of is that we need to pray for the man as well. He may be a true Christian, idk, but the man clearly needs Jesus, as do we all. May our Lord have mercy on us all!
@28:36 Gavin is equivocating the use of the term "Prayer".
I have a good book to recommend.. the Bible. Where does it say anywhere in the holy scriptures that we need to pray to and through the dead? It is so obvious and blatantly an act of idolatry. This can save you much time instead of listening to all this talk and debate. Read your Bible!
Nicely done
If intercession of saints is a doctrine share by all the ancient churches (Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Oriental Orthodox & Assyrian Church of the East), that would seem to suggest something.
If the bible clearly taught intercession of saints and Jesus or the apostles modeled it specifically for us, then I'd be sold. That would really be suggesting that it's endorsed. There's no hint. The ancient churches only practiced it later. As far as we can find, no earlier than 250 or so AD do we have documentation of it. It was probably later, but Catholics and Orthodox insist the Papyrus 270 w/ the Marian prayer has to be that early, so we'll go w/ that. Even though the scholar who studied the papyrus thinks it was more 4th to 5th century.
Churches can err and persist in error especially when anathemas are tied.
You pray to Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
I would personally make a slight argument from silence regarding praying to saints and entreating Mary. There is just so little mention of Mary from the church fathers in the first few centuries - exactly the time when you would think her "star would be on the rise."
Stay away from catholicism.
Stay away from idolatry & fanaticism of men.
Follow Jesus, become a Christian.
Identify yourself with Jesus Christ not with institutions of fallible men.
Here is the problem with this statement: that last sentence inevitably leads to worship their own opinions, which becomes idolatry. A person CANNOT have Christ without the church that He leads and works with. Protestants tend to jerk to opposite(and equally unbiblical) extremes as Catholics. A body without a head is dead and useless.
I started studying Catholic accretions when I heard Michael Voris with Church Militant pray to "Queen of the Universe". I shudder at such language.
In engaging in Catholics, it is apparent they have to engage in rhetoric rather than hermeneutics.
Don't be fooled. If it's Joe Heschmeyer it IS intentional and premeditated. He makes very childish and personal derogatory comments. Tangled with him several times along his push for Catholic fame.
You mean something like the personal comments your are making now about him?
This is not right!!! @9:05 min in this video you state Mary is the cause of salvation, Amen!
I have to STRONGLY disagree with you, and Catholics and Irenaeus or anyone who wants to claim, for that matter, on Mary being the "cause" of salvation!!!!
It is nonsense like this that leads people to start to give Mary more holiness, or "credit" than she really deserves!
My understanding of the word "cause" is that it means origin or beginning or start of something. The Oxford dictionary defines it as "a person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition. "the cause of the accident is not clear".
Thus, it is false to attribute salvation, or even Jesus's birth, to having been "caused" by Mary. Mary is nothing more than an "instrument" for birthing or bringing Christ into this world! NOTHING more! She's a person off cause. A human, and having been chosen by God for this honor to be the earthly mother of Christ, but giving her the credit of being the "cause" of salvation is just duft! Crazy and may I say, stupid!!!
ONLY GOD IS THE CAUSE OF SALVATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not Mary and not anyone or anybody else, but GOD!!
Stop trying to apiece Catholics, or heretics, just to keep the piece, please? I know you mean well and you want to be "nice", but being nice means to point to the truth, and this Mary nonsens should be addressed with the vigour it deserves! The Catholic doctrine on Mary has only one purpose, and that is to take focus away from Christ! To minimise Christ's role in salvation, and to undermine Christ's authority!
It should be opposed with vigour and to all ends! It is heresy and blasphemy!!!
Satan is laughing and wringing his hands in his accomplishment of diminishing Christ Jesus, and God, for that matter!
DO NOT GIVE SATAN THIS PLEASURE!!!
9:05 "Mary is the cause of salvation *because* of the Incarnation." The clause qualifies the context of "because." If there was no Mary there would be no Jesus. Mary gave birth to Jesus, and in that way she was the *cause* of Jesus' very existence and, hence, the "cause* of salvation.
BS!
God chose Mary! She didn't decide to bare a child while still a virgin and that the child will be the Messiah! God could have chosen anyone! That women, the chosen one, whomever she is, is but a vessel, not the cause of the incarnation.
This is just ridiculous to even suggest that without a women God would be unable to have brought His child into this earth, or into this realm, and thus God would be unable to have given us salvation! What utter nonsense!
It is this kind of Christ humiliation by Catholics that points to Satan! It screams into the face of God, yet it is continually used as justification for Catholic doctrine!
To your ridiculous argument, why is Pontius Pilate not then the cause of salvation, or Judas, for if they did not do what they did, according to Catholic Satanic believe, Jesus would not have been crucified!!!
This Satanic indoctrination is the cause of many people's eternal death!!!
May God have mercy!!@@joeoleary9010
@joeoleary9010 Jesus is eternal, and therefore did not need Mary to exist. Mary existed because of Him, not the other way around. Mary was truly blessed by giving birth to the Messiah. However, Mary, along with all of us, was a servant and a child of God. That doesn't diminish her in any way. Mary, like others, was chosen to fulfill God's plan. You should follow what Mary said and focus on God, our Savior.
And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
Luke 1:46-47 ESV
@@clayw70 That is very well put. It doesn't diminish Mary, or make her a mere vessel. Even as a non-Catholic, I still cringe a bit when a protestant says that Mary was just a vessel. Mary was still a beloved woman, created by God, and definitely very blessed to be given the honour to carry our Lord and savior. This is where Catholics and protestants differ in seeing the scriptures about Mary being blessed by all generations. She is said to be blessed by all generations. We certainly honour her at Christmas, and she comes up a lot at that time, because she was a key player in the incarnation of Christ. Catholics definitely don't follow our more reserved way to honour Mary. They take it a level that we just can't follow. I'll leave it more subtly at that.
@saintejeannedarc9460 Thank you for your kind words! I edited my post because I didn't see how my language could be taken poorly. Thank you for pointing that out! I try to always speak out of love while maintaining truth. Sometimes, I choose poor words though.
I don't understand the Gospel, so my pursuit of truth is often tainted with motives of vainglory, but I would hope that, even if for the sake of vainglory-tainted desire to know truth, and be seen as someone who is honest, I would not so openly misrepresent someone. I mean, it just makes you look like you need a little extra help comprehending your "opponent" when you do that. Sadly, his fans will not call him out for misrepresenting.
"We, however, do not take the parables as sources of doctrine, but rather we take doctrine as a norm for interpreting the parables." - Tertullian
I watched Joe's "response" videos. Lost a lot of respect for him, sadly.
Do you know specifically which video Joe was responding to of Gavin's? I watched the latest one. I found the last one so weak and lawyerly, full of rhetoric, but not convincing arguments for praying to saints. I didn't catch how much he straw manned, until I saw Gavin's response now though.
Joe heschmyer
Dr. Ortlund,
Your videos have been encouraging to me as I ask tough questions.
I would appreciate your prayers as I investigate these questions. My biggest one is probably about John 20:23.
I think I have never heard a good Protestant perspective on this verse. Especially not one that relates to the Church Fathers. It seems to me that it used often for evidence for the neccesity of auricular confession and apostolic succession.
Do you know any place I could find one?
Thank you!
Are you familiar with Jordan Cooper? He touches on this subject here: ua-cam.com/video/saKALWuDk6A/v-deo.html
Are you struggling w/ whether your sins can be forgiven w/out a Catholic priest? Even priests will point to scriptures that say we can always confess to God and have our sins forgiven directly. One scripture on this doesn't negate all the others, many others that say "when we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness".
Yes I have been. I think youre right in saying there are verses about praying and asking God for forgiveness. But I thought Catholic doctrine says mortal sins need to be confessed to a priest to be absolved.
I also dont understand how Protestant Churches interpret John 20:23 (its rarely brought up) and oppose Catholic claims to succession. This verse has been perhaps my main towards Catholicism or Orthodoxy.
I'm especially interested in seeing how its been interpreted in church history. Hope I havent bothered. Prayers would be appreciated.
Thank you for your charitable response brother! God bless!
Why is it sinful to say the same words to Mary and the saints/angels that I would say to my wife or fellow Christian brother-“Will you pray for me?” Obviously, when I ask my wife/brother to pray for me, I’m not Praying to them as I would to God. Therefore, if I ask Mary/saints to pray for me, I’m not praying to them in the same way that I Pray to God.
If you come to a fellow Christian, you aren't coming w/ lavish praise and adoration for them, which looks like the worship due to God. I see this blatantly in the Psaltery of the Blessed Virgin Mary, which are reworked psalms, 150 of them, all to Mary, rather than to God. We know the psalms are prayers and worship to God, so to see this is nothing short of blasphemy. I've given a few samples to Catholics and they see absolutely nothing wrong w/ the language of these psalms, so there just doesn't seem to be a line that shouldn't be crossed in Catholic practice, even though we are always told that worship belongs only to God. Catholics seem to only see worship happening in the Mass, so there is no language too far, no prayer to effusive and no worshipful language that is ever too much, even if every attribute normally reserved for God is given to Mary.
PSALM 15
Preserve me, O Lady, for I have hoped in thee: do thou bestow on me the dew of thy
grace.
Thy virginal womb has begotten the Son of the Most High.
Blessed be thy breasts, by which thou hast nourished the Savior with deific milk.
Let us give praise to the glorious Virgin: whosoever ye be that have found grace and
mercy through her.
Give glory to her name: and praise forever her conception and her birth.
Glory be to the Father
Is it the same words as we'd speak to our friends or family? Here's a standard Catholic prayer to St. Jude: "O Holy St. Jude, Apostle and Martyr, great in virtue and rich in miracles, near kinsman of Jesus Christ, faithful intercessor of all who invoke your special patronage in time of need, to you I have recourse from the depth of my heart and humbly beg to whom God has given such great power to come to my assistance. Help me in my present and urgent petition. In return, I promise to make your name known and cause you to be invoked. St. Jude pray for us all who invoke your aid. Amen."
@@joeoleary9010 and @saintejeannedarc9460, Maybe those prayers go too far. Maybe the language is too effusive. Nothing in catholic theology REQUIRES you to say those devotionals. In fact, you don’t have to ever request the intercession of any saint if you don’t want to. The problem here is that you have given me two examples that may or may not be problematic, but they do not refute the general argument I laid out in my comment: Is there anything wrong with saying the same words to Mary/saints as I would to my wife/Christian brother-“please pray for me”? Even if I stipulate that your two examples are inappropriate, you will not have answered my more fundamental question.
@@MarquesGoetschWhy do you need to pray to Mary, doesn’t she automatically prays for everyone 24/7?
Simply, 1 Tim. 2 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Strong's Number - G3316
Greek: μεσίτης
Transliteration: mesitēs
Pronunciation: mes-ee'-tace
Definition: From G3319; a go between that is (simply) an internunciator or (by implication) a reconciler (intercessor): - mediator.
9:36 But all Joe was saying here is that it’s not medieval. It’s early.
Great response
Questions: Where is it in Scripture that says the "Saints" are praying for us? And who are YOU saying the "Saints" are?
There is nowhere in scripture where the saints pray for us. The apostles never modeled it, Jesus never taught it. Joe had one apocryphal scripture from Macabees where a dead man who had been righteous said he was praying for the Jews. It was in a prophetic dream. That's all they have.
Catholics pray to the saints because the pagan Roman’s had their house gods that they prayed to.
Funny thing, the “Church fathers” quoted in the video are not in the scriptures.
I like the new intro!
Yeah, that summary of your argument (shown in the thumbnail) is absolutely ridiculous. It's akin to if a husband accused a wife of adultery (forgive the explicit nature of the analogy) and she replied, "That's not fair! I sleep with you all the time!" We see prayers and devotion to God as a matter of exclusivity, not prominence. In fact, in the OT God quite often used the example of marriage exclusivity to illustrate what the people of Israel owed to him as their God.
No excuses.
I’m lol’ing at the facial expressions in your thumbnail
"I am sure that is not intentional". Yea, you are much too hopeful regarding others my friend. If a person starts his arguments against you by first insulting and/or discrediting you..., you better believe it's intentional because they hate what you have to say.
*discrediting
It is sad that some of these Catholic apologists remind me of Muslim apologists who straw-man Christian positions. I also see you Dr. Gavin being slandered for stating the truth as best as you can, and that also makes me a little sad. I have been very blessed from thinkers and defenders of the Christian faith from the Catholic tradition, and accordingly carry great respect for them. This makes this all the more sad for me. Let's all hold ourselves to a higher standard.
Shameless popery has a new video that really dives into this subject! Check it out. The care for making sure Dr. Gavin is well represented really shows. I think you would appreciate it
I think saying Mary is the CAUSE of salvation is very problematic!! Gavin please think about what your saying. The cause of Salvation is Christ. She was a vessel that bought the Savior into the world. Salvation is not in her.
exactly, GOD could choose any virgin. He needs to stop trying to be "charitable" with heretics and instead focus on being biblical.
I watched a video from joe where he said that reformed theology did not acknowledge the Eucharist as a type of sacrifice, which was so false I told him that the reformers spoke of sacrifice but denied an oblation, he responded and I pointed him to Turretin and he would not respond when I asked him if he understood the difference no response, no acknowledgement of his violence to the truth
Hey, Dr. Ortlund, how would you respond to a Catholic who says, “Sure Origen said not to pray to anyone but God, but he didn’t say not to ask deceased saints or angels to pray to God for us”?
Many Catholics don’t think they’re praying to saints and angels, but asking them to pray for them.
I would respond with explaining that it's a semantic word game. What does a person do when they pray to God? They're talking/communicating to God. Furthermore, we are communicating with an unseen Being Who is also part of the spiritual realm. That would be the distinction between prayer and talking to a person who is alive. Therefore, the asking for the prayers of the saints is prayer in itself because you're attempting to talk/communicate with deceased Christians who are in heaven (unseen and part of the spiritual realm). Praying to them or asking them to pray for you both involve communication with the saints in heaven. In addition, under both cases, the assumption that the saints can hear the prayers ("asks") and intercede for the individual is basically identical.
Just my thoughts on the matter. I hope that was clear and made sense. If not, feel free to point it out.
Mr. Ortlund, where to find text version for all of your video? I think I need to read it to have better understanding.
Turn on CC
@@goldenspoon87 I'll find it's more effective for me to learn from an article.
3:52 Is it insulting though? I didn’t think you considered yourself a medieval scholar 🤔