Twenty years of Aikido sparring pt 2
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
- Twenty years of sparring with Aikido- this is the second part of a three part series outlining my journey to understanding what Aikido is. I went through several iterations of what I believed the art to be, from Japanese Jujutsu, ro some similar fighting art- to a "mobile weapon platform". In this part I talk about how I came to understand the lack of clinch work in Aikido, as well as how multiple attackers worked, and bring that all back to the seed of truth I found in my fight with the Dog Brothers doing full contact stick fighting. In this explanation you can see why something like Aikido vs. MMA or Aikido vs. BJJ is a silly question- Aikido is just a different kind of system.
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Really interesting. Looking forward to part 3
Thanks!
I hello there
Youv'e sparred judokas after watching this video using Aikido. What do you think about the approach after that experience?
LOl hey I found This channel from watching yours, hope your own jouney is going well
My intro to Aikido was in the military as a weapons retention and subject control system. I later went through some training that was weapons based and was built for multiple attackers. Neither focused on clinching and fighting/submitting an opponent the way boxing/jujitsu/mma approaches a fight. But those are different scenarios. In my training, I was always the armed person either defending or controlling before weapons employment. I really appreciate your perspective and willingness to investigate this.
Very inspirational, thank you for sharing your experience!
My pleasure!
20 years if getting beat up with Aikido. Love it. I commiserate.👍
thanks for being so honest and at the same time, shedding light for aikido....
A lot of styles that people say don't work in a real fight aren't actually taught properly. If they started teaching Karate, for example, the right way tonight, by tomorrow morning 99% of the people doing world-wide would have dropped out.
This is a fantastic, fantastic series.
Thank you!
@@ChuShinTani there are a lot of people who talk about thinking critically with the martial arts, but this feels much more like what that critical thinking should be. Can't wait for part three so that people can see this whole progression
In order to speak of peace, you need to be prepared for war. Imagine a little country trying to stop a war when to bigger countrys are discussing. O Sensei used to speak of peace because he was a top fighter and a very religious man. I like your videos and point of view. It really makes Sense.
Love it.
I really like your approach. In our style of Aikido we always come back to weapons if we struggle with technics, meaning that we use tachi waza saya no uchi technics to come back to. So you are the guy with the sword in your belt and you want to get rid of people grabbing you and preventing you from drawing. That makes sense. :)
I love this. I agreed with you that Pride is better than UFC hahaha. I love your approach towards aikido, even though I do not practice aikido. It's really interesting.
this is so insightful stuff. The whole aikido world should be concious of this. I don't know if it is.
Imagine samurais for whom these arts were meant for: they were never without their weapons. Ppl in the old days didn't end up in clinches, because everyone had weapons.
This is a wonderful video series. I trained in Aikido while in the Sheriff's academy. It was helpful and I didn't not persue anything else.
I'm currently trying to find the best system for my 6yo son to begin studying. I really like what aikido offers in its philosophy and techniques. However, I'm not sure it would be best for my son. I teach to always walk/run away. But I want my son to know how to defend if he is backed into a corner of no way out.
Thank you for wonderful insight.
Glad you enjoyed it! I think there are many martial arts that might be a great choice- at that early age, you can't go too far wrong, as long as it's constructive and healthy (physically and mentally) and they are having a good time! Thanks for your comments, best of luck on your search for your child!
Thank you for this clear explanation.
You are welcome!
This makes SOOO much sense!
GREAT video!
This is pretty brilliant. I've taken a handful of Aikido classes and I never liked it, but after watching your last couple of videos, i feel like i should try it again
I think you completed the circle. As far as I know Aikido started as support techniques for armed people, both with and without armour. For example, if you think about traditional Japanese armour pauldrons, they seem tempting to grapple during a fight. Also, if someone tries to grab your sheathed sword, you will have a katate Dori you can work with. I think you can find interesting searching about the Takeda Ryu Nakamura Ha, as they have a more traditional and fight-focused version of Aikido. Anyway, good video!
Great videos, keen for pt 3 :D
This is excellent stuff. You're the only expert ive ever encountered who shares my view. For me the solution (part 3) Is tricky. You have the blade but you do not have the intention to harm. Rather, the blade is solely a means to exercise control. Good luck explaining that in a court of law though! I look forward to your part 3! Excellent stuff
This is better and direct to the point. I should have watched part 2 first.
The art you will fall in love with is Systema :D
I played with systema some in the early 2000's, it's interesting and fun, but not what I was looking for.
It would be interesting to see Rokas's reaction to this, your journey with Aikido was very intriguing
This was his response ua-cam.com/video/FnNnLVdwwvU/v-deo.html
I really wonder how and why was this lost as a realization/concept since Aikido was created...
I had some experience with Aikido years ago and it remained an interest of mine ever since, cause it was taught to me as some (almost mystical) art that uses the strength/momentum of the opponent against them.
But I always felt that there's something a bit off with it and later I realized that there's nothing wrong with it, but more with the general way of teaching it.
In most dojos there seems to be this "cult of personality" occurring towards the Sensei (it doesn't matter if intentional or not), where nobody really puts the techniques to the test, especially when the teacher is performing them. "If Sensei says it's true, it is true, or it will become true once I become better."
Which is why I stopped and haven't started training Aikido again to this day.
Eventually, I had the opportunity to attend some properly taught authentic Yang Tai Chi classes and it reaffirmed my suspicion above, cause both Tai Chi and Aikido both suffer from mostly bad reputation in the wider martial arts community (one being called "gymnastics for elder people", the other - simply "useless").
So, when I saw this "gymnastics for elder people" turn into an actual martial art before my eyes and I felt its power, my interest/hope in Aikido also got reignited.
Then I stumbled upon your channel and in the first video I saw you spoke about how all barehand techniques are actually knife/tanto techniques and that Aikido is actually a weapon martial art predominantly, which is a concept that never crossed my mind, or was never even touched upon by my Sensei. I mean, yes, Jo/Katana forms and techniques were taught to me, but barehand fighting was barehand fighting and I used a knife less than 5 times for the whole couple years I was training.
And everything fell in its place...
So, in essence what I wanted to say is a BIG THANK YOU for your eye-opening content. I really hope to find a dojo/sensei here on the other end of the world that could teach Aikido at least partially the way you do it.
That's make lot's of sense.
Thanks!
I love this. I’m looking forward to the next installment. 🥋
You probably know more about Combat than most of us at this point because of your journey. You have things right in my humble opinion. Aikido does work well for armed combat, and against multiple attackers. That's what Samurai had to deal with normally I would imagine, and this Art was designed for them in mind.
Didn't Aikido's founder go to China and Study Tai Chi, Bagua, and other internal but certainly lethal arts? Not to mention being raised with the various forms of Bushido in the Japanese Culture. In my humble opinion, Aikido was created for already trained Warriors. So it's no surprise that you now understand it so well after studying and comparing it to other Combat Arts. Not to overly flatter, or put too fine of a point on it, but the NATURE of your journey has given you the proper insights.
When I learned , my teachers described it as a Weapon Wielding Style in it's pure form. If you think carefully, there are a lot of knife, Sword, and Staff techniques. I started to think of it along the lines of Kali, which is primarily for weapon wielding, although it has plenty of empty handed techniques. If you combine Aikido with very basic Combat Judo, emphasizing simple yet strategic disabling strikes (which my teachers did) you have something very well rounded for unarmed self defense as well.
The fact that the EMPHASIS of Aikido is on first AVOIDING, then secondly locking, throwing, and submitting your attacker without harm or bloodshed (if at all possible) is where the, "Philosophy of Peace", comes in. But if one understood the environment Aikido was created in, as well as it's Precursors (like Daito Ryu), one would see that it is indeed quite an effective Combat Art applied in it's proper context.
Important commentary Mr. Hein. I think you're a Wise and Honorable Man. Great video.
Your interpretation of Aikido resonates with me. It is not really for "discretionary fighting" which is sport (a narrow focus which of course can be specialized in ala MMA) because it tries to give you tools for the entire spectrum of conflict which includes deescalation and escape all the way to the other extreme. And I've always understood the defenses and development of natural reaction to wrist grabs as this is someone trying to sieze your weapon. So as the military knows, movement is life - getting caught up in a grappling situation is game over when the odds are against you and you will not even know at the time by how much. Having that weapon so you can deal with the largest range possible also means being able to surprise your adversaries with it with violence of action and using the best window for maximum devastating result or creating the opening to leave and opt out of the situation. And it's great to see your journey and many iterations of AikiLabs - looks fun and satisfying helping others on their journey!
O-sensei studied Yagyu Shingan Ryu in addition to Daito Ryu, and there is a style from the same region as Daito Ryu called Asayama Ichiden Ryu, and all of these styles have techniques where the wrist grab is to prevent Nage from drawing his sword. So I think you are on the right track.
O-sensei was a talented Martial Artist, but IMHO his obsession with his religion is what changed Aikido for the worse. Trying to force a Martial Art into becoming a way to spread peace and love is like using a sweater to catch fish. You can do it, but the sweater won't keep you warm when you're done.
I guess what what you have is a hammer...
My (very unexpert and non-researched) thought is that because the religious stuff happened _after_ he was already a very skilled jujitsuka, he was working with what he had. Maybe even in a sunk-cost fallacy sort of way. Whether and how it works for other people is necessarily going to depend on where they're starting from, and where it is they think they might be trying to get to...
Love your Intro music. Good thoughts on multiple opponents👍
Interesting video and a fascinating martial arts journey. Thank you for posting.
Thank you for sharing, this is super helpful!
Sounds very interesting. I really would have liked to see a demonstration though. Some sparring where you have the knife and Aikido techniques do help you out.
One thing that's not often discussed is that Ueshiba was a war veteran. He was considered the best at using a bayonet in his unit and apparently killed a lot of people. It's hard to imagine that someone with direct experience of deadly, massed and confused combat would come up with something that 'doesn't work'. Context is indeed the key. However I suspect it's less about Samurai and more about hand-to-hand combat in a pre WW2 context.
Interesting approach. I hope the next ones in the series comes with more sparring to see along with the explanations!
Thank you!
I'll try to put a bit more in next time- but if you want to see live training, there are lot's of video's on my channel- I'll be using footage from those videos.
Japanese men regularly carried weapons just as the Filipinos and Indonesians until they were disarmed & demilitarized after WW2. Arts such as Judo, Sumo, and Kendo were mandatory sports in schools with more rough and tumble rules. They still do these arts as a physical education, but with a less harsh rules.
Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for watching!
ive studied korindo aikido , and some daito ryu aikijujitsu for the last 8 years. the one thing ive questioned over and over again is the atemi. Osensei said aikido is 90% atemi but we normally dont train with them properly in place.
Tomiki Aikido has practiced sparring for decades…
Tomiki Kenji was a very smart man.
Interesting talk Chris 🙇♂️
yeah, wristgrab defenses are actually weaponretention.
I love this. Very similar to what we did in the early 2000's with many martial artists from many different systems.
Martial arts are about fighting. The techniques should arise naturally by maximizing the artists attributes to survive given the context of the interaction.
Thank you for sharing!!
Terimakasih sensei
Respect from here. If I remember right, Ueshiba told every attack is deadly. ... But that is not truly so in any combat sport or aikido nevertheless. But, if you consider attack with weapon.... Ueshiba was man seen war, it was hard to understand to me too, did he really create somerhing that useless. As a weaponsystem, it changes a lot.
Have you been in contact with that guy from the channel martial arts journey? This series answer a lot of questions that guy propose
They’ve done at least one video together. Pretty sure that’s how I ended up here
Yes, we are planning more work together in the future.
Very interesting!
Well said !!
So.... it's "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
Always.
I think aikido is open to interpretation honestly
It's how you train it and where you use it that I think is the problem
Also comparing it to a mma cage fight sport is pointless, they are 2 different thing so I dont even bother talking to people who compare the two
Although pairing aikido with some close striking and clinch work, especially stuff like muay thai, I think can be very effective.
I mean, if bigger stronger people are trying to hurt you, you can just dodge and retreat too. It doesn't always have to be a fight.
I have seen your previous videos and they talk about knife situations a lot more. Are there any bare handed techniques in aikido? Like most people presume or is it solely based on defending against a weapon or using a weapon.
My answer may seem confusing- but I'll try to make this clear.
You can use a butter knife to turn a screw, and if you've never used/seen a screwdriver, you can think that a butter knife does a pretty good job at this.
Unarmed struggle is a specialty (like the development of a screw driver), it takes hours upon hours to find what the most efficient ways to do things and how to best prioritize your situation. Aikido never had this time to develop in this way. The obvious techniques found in Aikido are techniques that were developed over years of armed struggle- these techniques (like the butter knife and the screw) can be used for other things (like unarmed struggle) but they are not as good as techniques that specialize in that area.
Now beyond all that, there is a philosophy and a set of less obvious tactics and techniques found in Aikido. These things can be applied to a large variety of situations- but they are not owned by or only found in Aikido- but they are things trained in Aikido. These subtle practices are useful in all areas of life.
@@ChuShinTani Thanks! I appreciate it.
Aikido is the moves of a samurai with a sword (katana).... try it. Hold the sword n do the movement.
My question is why didn’t ueshiba show this context, or was it just lost over time? Also does gizmo shioda approach it in similar fashion?
I wonder if it is possible to draw an aikido weapon when you are already on the ground. In other words, if you've been ambused and you now have to recover while on the ground. By the way, you have really interesting and realistic content. All the best to you.
It seems like the aikido moveset didnt fit wholly into the armed grappling context. I think mostly clinch based martial arts like judo, greco or sumo with an emphasis on staying upright and throws fit that context better. How a really skilled thrower can deal with multiple attackers by utilizing effective clinch throws to take out opponents before one person gets mobbed down
It's funny that after all this time people still haven't figured out the context of Aikido and just say it sucks lol
Heck yes Mico Cro -Cop meme ! Pride was better.! Lol . But ufc is the most awesome sport we have at present
I like branding this with your name rather than foreign words.
I'm eager to hear your thoughts on footwork and movement in aikido. It seems like the aikidoka is generally standing still in practice but the movements of aikido are based more around the aikidoka retreating or moving laterally while being approached. Is that part of what makes aikido "appear"?
I've spent some time studying aikido but am currently learning jiu jitsu. It seems like I'm always going for wrist and arm control when I should really be going for hip control. Can you compare aikido to other forms of jiu jitsu along those lines?
Yes! I believe Aikido is a movement art, it should always be done on the move. I understand there is a lot of "standing still" still Aikido- that isn't part of my approach. The distancing and movement is what makes technical Aikido come off.
Thanks for your comments!
@@ChuShinTani Thank you sir! I just wanted to add I really love your understanding of aikido and I think you've helped me put together a lot of puzzle pieces. My focus in aikido has definitely shifted from "grab the jab" stuff to maintaining safe distance.
Fascinating, I might say. What do you think about Dan Wolfman doing aikido just as a part of grappling, like in a wrestling situation going for a nikyo suddenly? He seems to be able to make that work? And besides, why to bother so much with wrist graps? The techniques at least in aikikai are studied from so many different variations that I always thought wrist grabs just as a way to teach the concept in the beginning. Somebody grapping your shirt with both hands is a pretty common thing to happen at least where I come from, why you could not create distraction with atemi and proceed with ikkyo or nikyo or whatever? Does it work against a wrestler or judoka? Hell no, at least in my skill level (2. kyu, nowadays more into amateur boxing and keyboard warrioring), but I would not completely disregard aikido as non-armed combat either, but you really need good atemis to make it work. Or what is your experience, you don’t really discuss atemi that much unless I missed something?
It's not for me to say what is the "real Aikido" or not "real Aikido", I know what my Aikido is and I have a pretty good idea about the Aikido of several other known practitioners.
Doing a Nikyo or a Kotegaeshi is NOT doing Aikido- Aikido is a system. If someone can't explain how that system works beyond "twist their wrist really hard" than they probably don't know the system very well. Japanese Jujutsu has Nikyo, Sankyo, Gokyo, Rokyo and Kotegaeshi- but that doesn't make Japanese Jujutsu Aikido or Aikido Japanese Jujutsu- I Discussed this in my first video in this series. Wrist twisting is not Aikido.
On Atemi- this video is full of atemi and talk of atemi. I do atemi constantly- the "mobile weapon platform" means using atemi while on the move. The problem is that most people think Atemi is boxing- it's not. It's also not simply unarmed strikes. Using weapons to make Atemi is way better than striking unarmed. I don't recommend unarmed striking unless there is no other option. Use a weapon and you'll instantly have more striking power and better reach than a professional unarmed striker.
@@ChuShinTani Hey hey hey, I did not meant to offend. Also I did not talk about ’real’ aikido, because I don’t believe such thing exists. One creates their own style out of what they are equipped with - whether ’real’ aikido, bjj, mma, boxing, judo or whatnot, the one thing you can’t escape is your body and you have to make stuff work with that - that’s what makes it real if anything.
And on atemi, I watched the video last night and maybe I did not concentrate that well on certain parts. I would be interested to hear more of your thoughts on atemi (maybe a separate video, unless you already have made one, sorry, I’m new to the channel). Anyway, this is really interesting and can’t wait to see the third part. Keep up the good work!
No offense taken. I just don't feel it's productive for me to talk about another persons approach- mostly I just wish everyone who has an approach to Aikido would be clear about what they call Aikido. You didn't say anything about "real" but that is where these kinds of questions tend to go- I didn't take anything personally, I just wanted to head that off before it went down that road.
Atemi in Japanese simply means to "strike the body". That can be done with anything, an ax can strike the body, an arrow can strike the body, a baseball bat can strike the body- this is all atemi. But usually when people start talking about "atemi" they mean punching and kicking- and while those might have their place- they are less important to this context than weapons strikes are.
Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed the video.
do you think there's room for aikido to evolve into an art which also covers clinch work and active disarmament of an armed opponent?
what is the other guy also draws a weapon? can aikido answer that and give you an edge in a fight like that?
I think that would be a de-evolution. I don't mean that in a negative way, but as an example, let's say you had an off-road truck. And you wanted to make that truck faster and faster on flat land, say a quarter mile. So you lowered it, change the suspension, changed the wheels and tires, changed the gear ratios, lighted the frame, etc, etc. Then someone wanted to know if you could evolve your truck to go off-road again. Yes, you could, but you've already done all the work on this truck to make it good for quarter mile racing- if you wanted to go off-road, you'd just buy another truck that hadn't been modified already.
This is like Jujutsu (traditional) and Aikido- Aikido has been modified from Jujutsu to be a lighter weight faster, more agile system. While you could modify it back to it's original form- why would you do that when traditional Jujutsu still exists.
As to your second question, Aikido teaches fundamental weapon on weapon work- it's not as good as a system that is dedicated to that function- but if you were facing a person who wasen't trained in this area it will work. I used it's fundamental training in the Dog brothers and several HEMA matches, and it worked just fun- that said, a dedicated school will work better.
@@ChuShinTani alright, I guess I see your point, admittedly I'm still a little vague at the moment of writing this message but let me say a piece more.
ok so what I want to ask you is this - would you be willing to agree (you don't have to obviously! I say that with utmost respect for you and your opinion) that whether aikido can evolve into something more pro active and applicable in grappling combat or not - kind of depends on the original purpose of the jujutsu koryu which aikido comes from?
if the aikido techniques, the waza, originally come from several ko-ryu jujutsu in the past. then doesn't it stand to reason that all of those techniques - nikyo, ude garami, juji garami, aiki otoshi all of those, in and by themselves, had an original purpose and an original way of using them? - which is that of the founders of those aforementioned jj koryus.
disclaimer here I'm sorry for my ignorance for I haven't fully researched the old koryu's which aikido draws from. I know one name aikijutsu maybe, not sure.
It's not really attached to koryu Jujutsu in the way I believe you are describing. Jujutsu- all of it, both modern and traditional is about close quarters fighting, mostly in the realm of grappling. Aikido is about staying ahead of that close quarters situation.
If you were to ask if boxing could evolve to include grappling, I'd tell you that boxing evolved to stay away from the grapple- this is the same as with Aikido. Boxing is a specialization, so is Aikido, so is Jujutsu or any other system.
You can change them, like you can modify an off road truck to go fast on flat land, but they will lose their special qualities.
Great series, informative. It's obvious that even with your personal negative experiece with Aikido at first you saw something there you loved and saw potential in, even though you were switching to MMA and BJJ. As soon as you began to find the context and functionality of Aikido you dived back into it. My two cents, Aikido is still technically a derivative of Aikijujutsu and thus a form of Japanese Jujutsu. actually feel you rediscovered the context of Japanese Jujutsu as it was used by samurai and others. Though you said "Japanese Jujutsu didn't work in that context" "There is not enough there." I'd push back a little and say that What you had been presented or seen as Japanese Jujutsu wasn't working in that context. Things had been lost forhotten, omitted and misunderstood. That's because just like Aikido, the way these arts are practiced and transmitted over time to us these elements and contexts were MIA. Remember that Aikido came from Aikijujutsu and that Ueshiba's teacher also did a lot of Sumo practice. But as these arts are transmitted through generations, across cultures, then made to fit the training tolerances and commercial needs of modern clients things get demphasized and changed. For example many schools seem to stay relevant by moving towards something like the sport of MMA, but if you practice a weapons based art like Aikido or Kali that's a problem. For instance your Tanto knife techniques or the knifework of Kali is illegal in MMA. But people like you, by doing the hard of work of thinking about these things and then experimenting with sparring and drilling are doing a sort of martial archeology. You help bring it back to a relevant and functional state. I've done this as much as possible in my own journey and it's been fruitful and fun, so it's good to watch your version of the journey and the new conclusions you reach about your art.
I think you are pretty much spot on.
I simply cannot believe it! Thank you so much, so much ,so much for posting this video!!! I tried to explain to rokas and people sharing his point of view that "the aikido person is the armed person". Honestly..., I am questioning intelligence out there... I am so sorry if I look pretentious since I am a humble guy but ... Come on, come on, aikidokas out there: use your brain and historical context. How could we explain all that "wrist grabbing" without considering the fact that the aikido person is the one with a weapon in his hand?!? The peaceful side of it is that the aikidoka allows the attacker to grab his wrist in order to submit him while renouncing to slice him! I told to Rokas that aikido should have been, before all, tested in its historical context. It must be all these social media stuff that erase brains off... How can you test aikido against mma without considering before the context aikido belongs to... No thinking, no thinking: I am telling you. FInal words: I am not here to defend aikido as an effective self-defense system, I am here to shout out loud: "use your brain"!!
I did the same as you in a recent comment of Rokas channel, why testing unarmed your art while it is made with weapons ? I have never seen this, except perhaps, Léo Tamaki but only as a teaching to explain why aïkido move as it moves.
👍🏽
3:29 5:05 8:12
Why not both?
Techniques for the unarmed and the armed?
For myself that's exactly what I did. For a system and as a teacher that's much more difficult. The more diverse your curriculum the harder it is to transmit.
Can you put a link for the dog brothers sparring using your aikido?
This fight was in 2003, I know there is a video somewhere because clips of it are in the dog brothers "staff" video but I don't have it. The two quick clips on here are from that fight. Here is a photo album from the meeting I was at dogbrothers.com/photo-gallery/nggallery/album-01/gathering-july-2003
@@ChuShinTani thanks for the info and the reply! Much appreciated
Pride was better 😆
You created a new martial art out of aikido. You went on a journey to find out why aikido doesn’t work and you found out that weapons work. Your still trying to call it aikido, it’s not. You’re next discovery will be that there are systems out there that do everything you’re trying to do but at a much higher level.
I think this is a fair critique. But I think it's important to remember that there is no "Aikido". There are versions of Aikido. Mochizuki had an Aikido as well as Tomiki, Shioda, Saito, Tohei and MANY MANY others. The distinction you are making above is a very old one. There are essays, and even whole books written by Aikido instructors explaining why they do the "real" Aikido and everyone else missed the boat. This kind of critique is the very reason Aikido is so fractured.
Aikido is a philosophy, that is supported by a body of technical work. I practice/teach the technical work and the philosophy in a way that I believe would be recognizable to the vast majority of Aikido practitioners as "Aikido". It is however, my approach to what I believe to be Aikido- as informed by a lifetime of practice, study and social interaction.
he's not doing a good job selling the martial art. I'm beginning to think that Aikido is useless and a waste of time.
Hello and with due respect your not suposed to reach, you use your Aikido only if attacked...again YOU DONT REACH !