Can we just appreciate how Penn Badgley (Joe’s actor) just gets it?? Like sometimes the actors who play bad characters either don’t really understand it or play into the fans love for the character too much, but he knows exactly what he’s doing. He fully knows that his character is such a evil, complex villain that could very well exist in real life, and that there are many men that think the way he does, so he knows the responsibility he has in portraying Joe in the right way. Like ugh this man is so smart I love him💖
Yes, like he understands Joes psyche and also how that mindset of his character is further protected/motivated and somehow ignored by society. He understands how Joe gets away with the things he does and its very refreshing.
He is such a good actor that whenever I see photos of him on social media I’m like, “he’s up to no good...” I understand that actors are not their characters, but he does such a good job at invoking these uneasy feelings that it takes me a moment to remind myself that (to our knowledge) he isn’t like that irl.
If he was more himself, understanding his job, but this is better in real life! Just make a show about him lol 😆 but truth. He's a great actor and understood the assignment
yes! and he regularly talks about misogyny culture and r*pe culture and seems to really understand it. he’s honestly such a good guy outside of the characters he plays
honestly i think he’s aware of the nuances surrounding the show since he’s spoken about them multiple times, but if anyone’s seen his music videos for his band and actually looked at the lyrics, i think he might resonate with the character more than we think
You used to cause serious arguments between my boyfriend and I. I hated Joe and he hated Beck. Then I realized he can’t related to my fear and hatred of Joe because he’s a man. He doesn’t know the real fear of dating someone that likely can and will kill you. My worst fear in dating being abused and killed. His worst fear is being lied to and cheated on.
there is a obvious difference in safety between the 2 of them. he kinda sounds like a psycho if he thinks that is really the worst scenario, given the 2. it's like saying every man is a rapist so he could not possibly know or care the pain it brings to you
Neither of them are good people, but Joe is clearly the worse of the two. He's terrifying. Like yeah, beck cheated, but Joe killed multiple people. Does your boyfriend side with Joe or something? I hope not. Women's fear of being abused and killed in relationships is justified, and so is the fear of being cheated on, but one is definitely not the same as the other. He should be happy he doesn't have to fear for his life everytime he goes on a date with someone new.
Hey didn’t know this got so many likes. My fiancé and I spoke seriously about it and he understands everything he was just short sighted in the moment.
watching Joe not being able to stand Love was the funniest thing because he was just as worse as her. he just couldn’t stand the fact that she was literally his female version
I actually really liked Beck because she was, in her words, such a mess. She's one of the most realistic women I've seen portrayed in media. And yeah, I found her annoying, I wouldn't be friends with her. But she's a fleshed out person, unlike so many other characters. I love in the last episode of season 1 when she screams "its my mess."
I despised Beck, but I saw myself in her so much more than any other female character in media. She was insincere and rude and raw. The more I know about her, the more I hate her because she is me.
@@HumbleDial honestly this, because all the traits I hated in Beck were traits that I had. It felt like there was no way to just "oh I wouldn't have done that" my way out of it because Beck is as human as the rest of us
Totally agree. She was very real and full of normal flaws. Sometimes a bit annoying, but who isnt in real life? She still had lots of redeeming moments and qualities.
I think the choice to introduce Love as a mirror image of Joe was a brilliant choice by the writer(s). He hates Love even though him and Love have practically the same motivations. The fact is that Joe can’t stand the idea of a woman that would take action for herself. He considers her actions as less noble than his purely bc he expects that men should do all they can to ‘chase’ and ‘capture’ a woman while women should sit and wait instead of being violent, as Love is. That’s why he loved Beck, bc he could chase her all he wanted and she didn’t want to be caught and could be considered pure and angelic in comparison to Love’s inner violence and explosive emotions. Him and Love were probably perfect for each other in a terrible way if Joe wasn’t so completely self-righteous and entitled with a debilitating saviour complex. That’s my piece.
I would also add that Love is a commentary character for those who are in love with serial killers. You know the ones that fan edit them with flower crowns and such on Tumblr? The ones who think they would somehow be exempt from the awful things the serial killer did if they met, just because of love. If they did everything right, they would love them, no matter what? Especially because people did romanticized Joe Goldberg online. I thought it was sorta the perfect commentary on that. Although, I do hope the people that romanticizes killers get the help they need. But yeah, those are my two cents.
I loved You immediately, but I never loved Joe. I loved You because, as someone who grew up in an abusive home terrorized by an abusive man (who has never truly been held accountable for his actions), I LOVED that the show was so adept at portraying the way toxic, abusive humans weasle their way into the lives of the people they abuse. Beck wasn't stupid: she was manipulated and gaslit and abused. Beck wasn't an evil person: she was human. And Joe isn't a boogeyman who only an idiot would fall prey to: Joe is a bad, bad man who chooses to hurt others and actively seeks to find the most effective ways to do it. It's so frustrating and honestly devastating to see people worshipping Joe and hating his victims (and those who survived him). It makes me, as a survivor, feel unsafe and unwelcome. Victims and survivors don't need to be anything, do anything, act any way, or fit any mold in order to be taken seriously, protected, respected, and given justice...but I guess the world isn't ready to accept that, yet 😕
I completely agree. A lot of people always want the “perfect victim” and so they’re very quick to victim blame or lose empathy for them when they don’t fit that box.
you've perfectly summarized why i've been hesitant to watch the show. it's exactly up my alley for the reasons you've described, but as someone who has also suffered domestic abuse, seeing some of the fan response to this show as well as hero worship of joe a la the joker (seriously y'all... wtf?) has made me likely to hold off watching it until it's finished and everyone has moved onto something else.
I also loved You and never loved Joe. I was told about this show by a (male) colleague, whose description kind of made it sound like a black comedy which satirises rom-com tropes - which it is kinda, but it was way more thriller than I expected and maybe subsequently I immediately was totally grossed out by Joe and was rooting for Beck to get away. I've also been disturbed and off-put by the fan reaction to Beck and I think it's a really troubling symptom of the internalized misogyny that a lot of these young fans are coming up with. Honestly the real horror of this show is reddit.
On the criminalization of mental illness: here's a case that happened when I was in high school. There was a mentally ill person in our community who was homeless because they couldn't hold down a job and (ironically) their mental illness got in the way of navigating the welfare system to get on disability and a social worker to help them get the resources they needed to get housing, food, etc. So this person hung out downtown, and a lot of people got annoyed with them. But they couldn't figure out how to get them off the streets either into a group home or a mental hospital or whatnot, because those services are underfunded. So one day, this person went into a convenience store and started to get themselves a slushee. They were talking to themselves. The store owner called the cops. The cop came, harassed the mentally ill person, and the person threw the slushee at them. So the cop arrested them, and they were charged and convicted of theft (of the slushee, which they might have been planning to pay for) and assault (for throwing the slushee). Boom! That person is now a violent criminal! ... if you only look at the court records, instead of what actually happened. And this person was white, I shudder to think what might have happened if they'd been Black.
I grew up in the homeless community in my area because my parents battled drug addiction for most of my early life. In my experience about 80% of them have similar experiences to this. Another thing to consider is that in a way drug addiction is often similar to mental illness because it develops as a response to trauma that is often very difficult to cope with, and has similar and sometimes indistinguishable negative impacts on people's lives.
@@lastetaslocas69 Long term drug addiction can be as debilitating as sever mental illness. It's not just the fact that drug addiction is correlated with untreated mental illness, but drugs if done enough for a long enough will change the physical structure of the brain. This even happens with alcohol. Past a certain point, chronic drug use can result in symptoms similar to mental illness, if not outright give rise to them.
Fam, the prison industrial complex swallows the mentally ill whole by the dozen. I had to pick up a friend after a drunk and disorderly, and saw a mentally ill person in the drunk tank. He clearly had no capacity to care for himself and was basically harassed by detainees and officers alike. I almost intervened, but remembered my black face and those blue suits and shiny badges and thought better of it.
It's even more horrifying that there's actual men like that. You'll come across them in dating apps more often than not. Joe is a misogynistic arrogant delusional jerk with a savior complex disguised with a handsome face.
I think it relates to the truth is that the scariest fact about the world is everyone see themselves as the main character and everyone sees themselves as the hero: no matter how dark and depraved their actions may be.
i'm a cleaning lady, and anytime we leave business cards somewhere to attract clients, I make sure that they're the ones that have my cleaning partner's name and not mine. we get more calls/respect/better attitudes when the name on the card is "Allender" and not "Domingues". it's depressing.
I don't even agree that Beck is a bad person: just disinterested and experiencing an unfulfilling relationship with man who doesn't care to actually know her.
@TN I think I just disagree that the act of cheating does all if those things. Cheating can happen in the context of an emotionally abusive relationship or it can happen not I that context. I just don't think it by it self is that bad. 🤷🏿♀️
@@JP-et9hv remember, Joe is an unreliable narrator. As far as I can see, they are a friends with benefit relationship. Not exclusive or romantic. As far as I can see, the relationship is intimate but not the intimacy you'll find in a committed couple but in a one night stand couple. So in this situation only Joe sees them as a thing.
I somehow liked all woman: Beck was most relatable, swinging between the extremes of being morally correct and morally corrupt, with the rather fascination of latter (which is the entire subtext of the show), Love was privileged and unhinged, just like Joe. Marianne was ambitious and just trying to meet ends meet while also coping with tricky divorce and toxic ex husband. Candace wasn't given much of storyline apart the one we see in flashbacks (which is from Joe's perspective) but she did come to save other women from Joe's future mistreatment instead of just moving on with her life after almost losing it. Karen was really helpful to Claudia & Paco. Delilah was also complex and trying to bring herself and other little girls of Hendy's wrath justice. Sherry even though was superficial at first, slowly through Love's friendship with her opened for a more nuanced behaviour and traits of surviving in a superficial world and finding herself first than finding a perfect partner whose validation will make her whole(although Cary also looked perfect superficially).
I find it interesting and very cool actually that all women characters were so complex and had personalities and interests outside of just joe which is almost opposite for lack of better word to joe, his whole thing is finding someone to love him, fill the hole his mother made and also be the perfect mother and women, oh and books! He judges everyone and is in a lot of ways nastier than those he judges, the exception being love and hendy-who also hurt people in a horrific way.
I am happy to see somebody not hating Beck, because I remembered that there was a whole hate campaign on the internet in the You fandom. I've never really understood why
@@mississipi1103 I feel like it’s just self-projection at this point, at least that was why I personally found her annoying in the first season. Out of all the YOU girls she was by far the most relatable “young woman navigating her young adult years”, and let’s be honest, most people watch shows like this to get away from the realities of life, not to get sucked right back in with characters who are a true reflection of themselves
Maybe it's cause I read the book but Beck was a terrible person. The fact that she wasn't a "good" person made his obsession all the more unreasonable. Joe wouldn't have liked Beck outside of his murderous obsession with her.
Joe put all of his romantic interests on a pedestal until he realized that they are imperfect. He's hypocritical because he's so imperfect that he can't ever be authentic in a relationship. When he met Love, she was finally a perfect match for him but it was too difficult because it was like looking in a mirror. They should have continued therapy alone, as neither of them opened up enough in couples therapy.
@@saraergonot technically no, a therapist is legally bound not to say anything (including murder) about their patient unless they have (written and signed) consent from the said patient or someone's life WILL be in danger.... you can tell your therapist that you killed someone just before you entered their office and they legally cannot and will not do anything because it has already passed. but if you tell them that you WILL kill someone, then they can step in and alert the authorities
@@catherinetheegreat8742 Is this true?? Like are you a therapist cause this is genuinely interesting, I cant imagine having to just sit on that sort of information
Found it so interesting the way that Joe hated love for being "impulsive" with her kills. If you pay attention to the way they navigate the world Joe would kill to get what he wanted and Love killed to keep what she already had. To protect her brother from abuse, to keep her husband(s) from leaving her after she played super wife. Love is calculating like Joe but he never respected that about her because he saw her as a problem and not a person once he got to know her. She planted that wolfsbane months before she ever used it, and she had used it years before on her first husband. Hwr relationship with Joe feels like a fulfillment of the fantasy life she had desired with her first husband. She had been begging him for a baby, I wouldn't be surprised if she got pregnant on purpose to lock Joe down. Over season 2 we witnessed several sex scenes that she initiated that didn't involve protection. This woman is 30 something, she knew the deal. When she saw Joe for who he truly was, the glass cage, knocking teeth out of a dead woman's mouth, burying a body together... she chose him flaws and all, and he was disgusted by her "weakness" for it. She was a woman he didn't have to prove his value to, because she loved the parts of him he was disgusted by. She clings, he chases. But both act out of fear of being alone, but Joe doesn't realize he also fears being seen. (The stupid baseball cap is the cherry on top.) At least Love was brave (?) enough to bear witness to the truth of who she chose to partner and honor her commitment to a violent man... by becoming increasingly violent herself over the course of their relationship. She was right, they were perfect for each other.
THIS THIS THIS. Joe kills to get wants and Love kills to keep what she has. I never thought of it this way, but so well said. This needs to be pinned at the top for all to see.
That's why I felt sad when she died. The ending was epic, I did love it. However, while I'm not really a fan of either of the two, I did like Love more than Joe, because while Love actually accepted Joe for who he was, Joe became the hypocrite that made me think "wow, YOU'RE allowed to kill for those you love but SHE is crazy when she does it? And didn't you put yourself in that situation? How foolish can you be?"
Joe, for his numerous crimes and faults - is the product of abuse that led to manslaughter, subsequent abandonment by mother, group home abuse, & foster abuse
I absolutely LOVE this author. The line where Joe says "my tragically ill girlfriend Guinevere Beck, I now see she had Borderline Personality Disorder" I cannot stressed how hard that made me laugh. It's so painfully ironic and accurate that I couldn't help but laugh! The amount of men who I've heard say their ex-girlfriends "(probably) had BPD" is just so telling. It largely affects women, and for some reason it is the one cluster B personality that mental health professionals refuse to touch (gee, wonder why that is...). BPD suffers endure a barrage of both mental health stigma, and sexism, and it's honestly very upsetting. Especially when perceived or real rejection is a huge trigger for them.
A friend saw this and sent it forward. It's surreal seeing your work cited and viewed by thousands of people. Thank you for talking about these issues and I look forward to seeing more.
The ownership part is triggering. My ex husband, as soon as that ring went on my finger, acted as though he owned me. His version of who I am is not based in reality, which happens a lot with a lot of men. When I left he told me that I couldn't leave because I was married to him. The sense of entitlement is staggering.
I'm really sorry that happened, it must've been terrifying. One of my worst fears is that I date someone, fall in love, it goes well, we date for years, and suddenly he shows his true horrifying colors. Then what do I do? I love him, I don't want to leave him but I know I have to. And what if we live together? It's just scary because men can seem wonderful for so long and then one day they appear to change out of the blue, but it was right there and you just didn't see the signs until it was too late. It's just... scary.
@@pissapocalypse same! I also have a fear of dating a man and believing that he loves and respects me and live with him for the rest of my life without knowing that he calls women "holes" behind my back or something like that. It's such an irrational fear since there's no danger in this scenario but just the thought of wasting my life and my love on someone who doesn't even view me as human for some reason terrifies me. Every time I come across misogynistic comment I think "poor women in your life, they don't even know..."
even beyond implicit messaging, phrases like "get the girl" remain pretty popular to this day. the way you see some men talking about ppl like stay at home husbands too, you see people asking how that could possibly be preferable to living alone. as if the goal of a partnership is not partnership but a man getting his own personal assistant
As a person who has OCD, I can tell you that my room is rarely ever clean. I don't even put my clothes into drawers. My clothes live on my floor. What I actually do compulsively is far less glamorous. I peel the skin on my hands and feet, frequently to the point of bleeding. I frequently feel paranoid, and then i gaslight myself because I don't know if i feel this way because that's actually what's going on or if it's because I'm letting my own anxiety rule me and skew my perception of reality. I have intrusive thoughts, and for a while i thought i was a terrible person because i acted on one of those thoughts when i was a kid, because I didn't know how else to get rid of the thought. I would say that Joe's need to collect things for his box would match some of how OCD presents in me. I get the urge to collect certain things. I'm not going to say what, though I'm sure people will imagine things infinitely worse than reality. Still, admitting it feels deeply personal, because the shame of knowing that i shouldn't do it but allowed myself to do it anyway can be overwhelming, and that's deeply personal. However, my current compulsions don't hurt anyone but me. That's probably the case for most people with OCD.
After watching You, I can’t watch Japanese romantic dramas without cringing with what the main guy does for the girl because it’s stalker behavior 😅 like the guy somehow ends up in the room with no invitation or the girl wakes up to realize she is on the guy’s lap when she fell asleep on the couch (and they aren’t even dating 💀) Plus the guy doesn’t take “no” for an answer like you said in the video 😭
Same oh my gosh I have some friends obsessed with romantic kdramas but the guys are always grabbing the girl’s wrists and pulling her when she tries to leave and practically forcing himself on her half the time, even when she says no! It makes me sooo uncomfortable 😔
@@cheeseisherelive753 Ughhh I hate those... so much. There's this one kdrama I watched where four guys like the same girl- she kind of works for them as sort of a live in maid (but also acts as discipline?). And the main love interest is always grabbing her, ridiculing her, and doing the worst shit- but it's ok!!! He saved her from that falling vase or some shit! So now everything he does is romantic, even if he berates her for the dumbest reasons hahaha!
Thats why I like history Asian dramas, because Asian history was so wacky that you don't know if it's real recounts or exaggerated accounts from when they were written in that time
@@your_dad_on_vacation same! not to mention a lot of historial asian dramas feature badass bitches who would simply eviscerate a man for trying to strong-arm her, which you love to see.
This is very long so be warned :) I was diagnosed as autistic this year and Aspergers Syndrome is my official diagnosis so I want to talk about the Reid/Gubler situation from my own perspective. I’m doing this mostly from memory so if there’s something I miss/get wrong feel free to reply and correct me. Aspergers is my official diagnosis because I’m Scottish and we have a different criteria to the USA. It’s important to note that way we define Autism has varied over time and does vary from country to country so some autistic people are attached to Aspergers as a label and others are not. The criteria for Aspergers for me was - this person meets the criteria for autism but didn’t have developmental ‘issues’ as a young child. I think it’s important here to say that what the allistic (non-autistic) people diagnosing me meant was that these developmental differences weren’t visible to them. That was the recurring theme of the diagnostic process - because I’m verbal and had good marks in exams Im only a ‘little bit autistic.’ There are various stigmas that an autistic person faces diagnosed or not but what I found before, during, and, after diagnosis was that people either didn’t believe I was autistic or belittled any difficulties I might have because I’m ‘high functioning.’ I’m autistic despite my official diagnosis. I’ll tell people that I’m autistic instead of saying I have Aspergers because it means that even if I’m treated like a child my support needs are taken seriously. Aspergers is an of the umbrella term of Autism. To have Aspergers is to be Autistic. The only differences between people who have Aspergers and autistic people is basically how ‘intelligent’ you are perceived to be and how well you are seen to ‘function’.’ Incase it isn’t clear dividing people by intelligence and function is ablest and the terms in this context are also ablest. For me, Aspergers as diagnostic label is incredibly reductive because Aspergers is equated with being high-functioning. The use of functioning labels hurts all autistic people because it divides us into who can and cannot be of use. It takes into account only what autistic traits can be observed by the very allistic medical professionals dealing with us. This means the understanding it provides is inaccurate. So from that standpoint Gubler saying Reid has Asperger’s syndrome and minor autism is how most of the professionals I have encountered would characterise me. This characterisation is hurtful. TW for ableism and murder Not sure if I’ve labelled the TW in the best way but this will touch on Nazi Germany related things. Hans Aspergers is the person who coined the term Aspergers. He essentially worked with autistic children in Nazi Germany and separated the ‘intelligent’ children who he said had Aspergers from the rest. Those who didn’t receive the label of Aspergers were referred by him to a clinic that was a centre for ‘child euthanasia.’ Here’s a source www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-truth-about-hans-aspergers-nazi-collusion/ Most autistic people do not like using Aspergers as label for themselves because of this. The way Reid is described by Gubler is not good. Not the most articulate way of saying it but I’m struggling to explain better. I’ve given my own experiences with the Aspergers label as well as it’s past to give an idea of what it means to be defined by the word Aspergers. I personally hate the term. A lot of the autistic people I know don’t reach out for help because they don’t feel they’re disabled enough. Aspergers as a term does nothing to help with that. Aside from its origins which are disgusting it just reeks of casual ableism. People tend to diminish the support needs of disabled people in general but when your labelled as ‘functioning’ your support needs are not treated as at all important. At this point, I should say that I have an incredible amount of privilege as an autistic person because I’m able to mask and can present as kind of neurotypical some of the time. This, however, doesn’t diminish what I can’t/struggle to do compared to the allistic people I know. Gubler’s way of talking about autism and Criminal Mind’s treatment of Reid really annoys me. I have always seen Reid as autistic but the way the show jokes about him being autistic really hurts. Gublers comments while not as bad as others (Benedict Cumberbatch saying that thinking of Sherlock as autistic is lazy and gives people going through it false hope) are frustrating. What, for me, this boils down to is how bad of term Aspergers is and how it can contribute to the ableism faced by autistic people. Sorry this is so long. Hope this makes sense and isn’t too jumbled.
Hi. I'm in England and a lot of what you've said really resonated with me as someone who is questioning the possibility of being on the spectrum (very late in life) and considering seeking a diagnosis. Your description of Aspergers/Autism is also what I have understood both of the terms to mean. Thank you for sharing this information.
I know I’m late to the party but thank you so much for taking the time to write this out so clearly and thoroughly. This is amazing information that I am going to pass on! :)
Okay but what is the alternative?? It's definitionally true, some autistic people are much higher functioning than other autistic people, it's a spectrum for a reason.
@@20somethingcimena They’re not, actually. I will give you an example. One autistic person is finishing their masters degree. Another cannot tie their shoes. Who is high, and who is low? Both people are me. Most autistic people have a mixture of strengths and weaknesses, the same as every other human. There was never a hard line separating “high” from “low”, and this frequently caused confusion, miscommunication, and inequity in care. The spectrum is more akin to ice cream flavors than the color spectrum (infrared to ultraviolet). Mint ice cream is not “more ice cream” than strawberry ice cream - they’re different flavors but we can agree they’re still ice cream. So rather than fighting over what’s “more ice cream” - who’s higher or lower - it’s better to just specify the flavor - where the specific difficulties lay.
This is so well worded! Thank you! I was looking for someone who'd left a comment on this topic because I am busy at the time I'm watching this. I am also autistic and felt it was important to see this written out somewhere in the comments.
This actually explains a lot of things. Whenever I talk with my mother about rapists she says I should just dismiss it because they are mentally ill. I think that it is a culture at play that says that mentally ill people are villians and when someone did a crime but isn't mentally ill they either had a reason or there's more to it. But I think being mentally ill wont help much in the court anyways. Generally, people that are different are pushed or made out to be villians because theyre different and perhaps, but not dependant on that, will then be hurt. Take Toga Himiko, she turned out bad because of how she was hurt, she still is an exception and Im glad they showed that she had a reason behind her behaviour, but I think it's the same thing at play again.
Only 20 mins in so I don’t know if you cover this so sorry if you do later:) But I think that the way Joe hates Love, specifically the way he hates her impulsiveness , is 100% a result of misogyny. Womens “hysteria” has been critiqued all throughout history, and has been a major misogynistic idea that oppressed women (like the witch trials, etc). The way that Joe thinks he is better than Love is definitely a representation of the way that he views her as hysterical. He has this idea of a crazy women because of his misogyny, so he views her murders are worse than his because his are calculated, while hers are because she is “crazy”. Can’t wait to keep watching!
@@diamondicn2679 the problem isn’t that she’s not crazy, it’s that they’re both crazy. The difference is that he believes that he isn’t crazy because he’s a calm calculated man while she’s an emotional woman. He uses misogyny as a defense mechanism to protect his ego from the truth that he’s just as crazy as she is. It reminds me of a guy who yells all the time but calls his wife emotional for crying. Anger is an emotion too, Zach.
@@allyli1718 true. It also bothered me when fans said that Love was always messy and impulsive while Joe was the smart one who thought things through. Wasn’t Joe stabbing Ryan where a bunch of people could’ve seen him messy and dumb? And wasn’t Love paralyzing Joe with the wolfsbane on the knife smart and calculated?
@@allyli1718 I understand the point about women hysteria, and perhaps traditional gender roles has an indirect effect on the way Joe views Love. However, let's frame it a different way: if Joe were to like men instead of women, and if Love were to be a man instead of a woman, then would he still think the same? Would he still see Love as being hysterical and irrational, if Love were a man? I'm not saying I'm anything like Joe, but I do like seeing myself as more calm and calculated than others, and seeing others as rash or shallow. Not always because it's true, but because doing so makes me feel better about myself. It has to do with me wanting to protect my own ego, like you mention, but this doesn't necessarily have to do with anyone's gender.
Joe is highly judgmental among his many traits. In the books he does not hold bag being smug and feeling superior to almost everyone he meets except his love obsessions. It’s part of his paternalistic, “I know best” inner dialogue that helps him rationalize stalking people to “protect” them.
Another thing that contributes to the audiences perception of the characters ‘goodness’, is the fact that we’re provided with flashbacks to Joe’s traumatic past. Unlike the other imperfect characters, where we just hear about it through them or not at all, leaving the audience with an abstraction, rather than concrete experience of their trauma as with joe. Much easier to relate, empathize, root for, etc when we experience the narrative of their cause-and-effect story
Also the adding of kiddy characters for Joe to protect. In the novel Joe is waaaay too busy touching himself outside Beck's window to feed or support a child. But I imagine the scriptwriters were trying to make him at least slightly likeable so people would watch the whole season? I guess it worked too well.
i highly doubt its for us to empathize with him...its more of an explanation of why joe turned out to be this way and how it caused him to be in this way
@@natasha5553 the intentionality of the show’s creative expression and its impact on the audience’s perception, isn’t what my original comment was predicated on. But, I totally agree with you, the function of their chosen narrative formatting was probably to simply flesh out the main character, to create depth for the audience, as Joe is the medium of the show’s story. My original point is premised in a neurocognitive perspective; that it’s just literally easier for an audience to relate to a fleshed out character, compared to one that is not. The intersectionality of the cast and intentionality behind the artistic decisions made, absolutely are relevant as well (especially hermeneutically). If you’re interested, ‘interoception’ is an underlying area of research I was coming from with the original comment. The embodied sensory processes involved in empathy, emotional valence, and how we relate to things external to us (this area of research really makes you think about how social media designs are doing us no favours too lol)!
As a white cis male, I have noticed the differentiation and privilege given to me. I have also experienced people telling me not to identify with my Lebanese, Italian, and Syrian ancestry. I am a teenager and go to a private school and not only is the student population very obviously lacking in diversity but also the education unfairly teaches about the hardships that classic White men have gone through. One of the biggest problems with the continuing of this education (this form of education as a whole is problematic) that is fed to young privileged children is that they will never accept the reality of the truth. I love watching your videos in hopes to further my understanding of concepts and issues in order to hopefully further educate those in my circles.
You also make a great point about violence or abuse being perceived as an inevitability in people who have mental illnesses. It's just false, and adds to the stigma of cluster B disorders. Mental illness *on its own* is not a predictor of violence or abuse. It's a distorted value system that does. It's a belief that they are entitled to that behavior that does. It is a social and cultural epidemic more than it is a personal mental health issue. I highly recommend reading Why Does He Do That? By Lundy Bancroft. Mental illness can certainly make the behaviors of someone who is already abusive more complex, but the majority of abusers are not mentally ill or neurodivergent, and the VAAAST majority of people with mental illnesses are not abusive or violent.
There are so many people out there who still exercise violent or abusive tendencies, *if* there's a higher rate among people with mental illness, it's definitely correlational, not causational. Violence is when people choose to act a certain way, and it can't be boiled down to genetics, there's so much more going on in a human's brain than just "I'm suffering from chemical imbalances, so I'm going to hurt someone"
Cluster-B is absolutely positively correlated with abuse. It doesn't guarantee it, but it's one of the first filters I would go to if I had to place a bet, ESPECIALLY with women. (I'm a cluster-B female).
Thank you for pushing back against that portrayal of misophonia. Hearing that quote made me feel really really sick as someone who suffers from miso. The disorder is already underrepresented and not taken seriously- to see the one time its considered a real illness in media being used as the motivation for murder... its not good. For the record, misophonia is an extremely difficult disorder to live with because triggers are literally everywhere at all times, and you cant ask or expect most people to avoid triggering you because triggers tend to be simple harmless things that they cant (and shouldn't have to) stop doing. Its a disorder that is extremely isolating and exhausting. Its most common in people with autism or adhd, as well as the elderly and adolescent girls. Idk where im going with this, just.. its tougher than people think. Also if i killed someone for triggering my miso i wouldnt drill into their brain wtf? That doesnt even make sense. Id trap them in a giant piece of bubblegum or something because the gum was what triggered me. Smh. Clearly they didnt do research....
I find it interesting how people will judge you for liking Love over Joe. They point out all these toxic traits of Love as if Joe isn’t just as bad and probably has done what they’re saying Love did. So many people fell into his playing the victim and completely miss how Love is his mirror
I love Love just because I love what her character stands for symbolism wise. The dirty and the ugly parts are what make her so likable to me. While I don't think her actions are great, I do love the imperfection of her. The darkness of the love she feels is almost beautiful. I wonder what that says about me though, lol.
Still think it would have been better to see the show through Love's eyes by killing Joe and letting her live. First because it's been three seasons of Joe repeating the same scheme but because I really thought that Love was unique in a way compared to Joe even if they are mirror images. Like someone point out, Love kills to keep something she has, not to have something she wants and the way she was desperate, trying to build a relationship, trying to be like him, trying to make him proud of her but never being close enough was somehow touching for me? She wanted to be seen by him just like she was seeing him and it made her ugly but in almost a poetic way, never being close enough to perfection for him like he was for her. I don't know what it says about me, but I love Love and still think that it was a shame to see her death.
@@chickeen_owo It was really sad for me to see this twist... Love was so smooth the way she poisoned him. It was pure self defense : if he takes the knife, that mean he wanted to kill her, if he never touched the knife, they would live happily ever after. Her plans were well thought and out of nowhere ( I know not really "nowhere" ) he had the solution against her. Personally, I am sure it is partly the fans fault since everyone seemed to hate Love, thinking she was messy, delusional and so on like if Joe was a sane man. Plus, women are often seen as weak and vulnerable, I think it would be so funny to see Love playing the weak card while learning to kill and control herself and see how she deserves better than a man like Joe who can't see how they are identical. Because they truly were
As an actress, Love carried the show. She stole it from Joe because her acting is just better to me personally. Now that she's gone I don't think it'll feel the same...Same thing with season 1. The actress who played Beck was so good.
Also, can we talk about how this show was able to be renewed for three more seasons after the first. Don’t get me wrong, I liked the show since it appeared on Lifetime, but Netflix is absolutely selective with the shows they deem worthy of renewing, and those they cancel after the 1st season…
As someone with BPD, I don't think Joe has it. He doesn't have the main symptoms, such as an unstable sense of self. All of the "BPD" things about him are his unstable behaviour toward his love interests, which could be explained as him just being gross.
Forty is probably the closest to a BPD person in the show, I think. He does a few bad things to people, like drugging Joe, but also he has the extremely soft boundaries, unstable sense of self, craves self destructive behaviors when he feels rejected or discouraged, etc. He also tends to attach himself to people and want to use them to help ground and stablize himself with those attachments to Love, but then starts to include Joe and Ellie. I have BPD and that's my opinion anyway.
I feel like growing up, we're all taught to feel bad for or pity disabled people- not for the world that isn't built to accommodate them, but for the bodies they were born with. But it just occurred to me that I wouldn't expect a Black person to hate being Black or assume they want to be white just because white supremacy and racism exist, instead i direct my anger towards the injustice they suffer. In that same way, we shouldn't expect disabled people to hate their disabled bodies or assume they wish they were able-bodied, instead we should direct that energy towards demanding spaces and representation that accommodate and include them. I don't know why I've never thought of it this way, but this video was en eye-opener. I'm definitely guilty in the past of ignorantly assuming disabled people wish they were able-bodied instead of assuming the more logical thought that they wish the world was a better place for them to live.
Fun fact: I think you just taught me a new way I should view myself. (Thank you.) I grew up, able-bodied, taught the exact same things you were. I've spent the last six years I've had with my disability hating my own body and its perceived lack of function. But like, I'd be able to do those things if society cared to help me, wouldn't I.
I never knew that there was a Criminal Minds episode about misophonia, a disorder that I have. In my own experience, when my misophonia was at its height, I would be in a situation with a sound and it would be life or death for me. I would either have to kill myself or the person making the sound, so I would experience it anymore. More often than not, it skewed towards the killing myself thoughts; I would self-harm in those situations just to focus on the pain rather than the sound. And if I did think about killing the person, I would feel horribly guilty because they were usually my loved ones. And from talking to other people with the disorder, they experienced similar things. So, the idea that a bunch of writers thought that a person would become a serial killer because of the hatred of sound, is comical to me. Especially because people with misophonia know what we are hearing and our reactions to it are irrational. But that's similar to most representations of mental illness or disorders, making it seem like mentally ill people are so dangerous when we would really rather be anything but dangerous.
I didn’t know about that episode either. Neither did I know that the makers of the show drew inspiration from real life and then pondered how a specific disorder would serve as a reason for someone becoming a serial killer… I can’t unsee that logic now, though. It explains a lot. : / I also have misophonia (although undiagnosed). I’ve never felt like I wanted to hurt anyone (except myself) physically, but I do get the urges to be hurtful with words. I do combat this urge, though, and leave the situations whenever possible or use headphones. I’ve read that usually people who experience misophonia are triggered by sounds created by people who are dear to them. I can’t remember the source (and it might have been in Finnish) but I remember being relieved - in a way - because that is true to me. I was already thinking that I was simply a shitty human being for getting anxious and irritated whenever my roommate/close friend ate anything or breathed while having a flu etc. Actually my roommate was the one who happened to stumble upon the term ’misophonia’ first. She was extremely happy and relieved that there was a name and explanation for how I acted in certain situations. ”: ) Misophonia is also one of the major causes for my depression. It’s really stressful to live with someone whom you respect and care, but whose everyday sounds cause you extreme discomfort. Besides, the list is slowly growing. Initially I just couldn’t stand her eating chips with me when we watched tv but now I can’t stand the noise of her steps if we go for a walk together. Luckily we share several hobbies and interests, but misophonia makes daily life nevertheless quite tiring. Lately I’ve considered living alone although otherwise our living situation works fine. : (
you've touched on some really great points here! i'm also continuously frustrated by how the media portrays those of us struggling with mental disorders and illnesses that are far likelier to make us vulnerable to abuse and violence, rather than turning us into the aggressors. something i will say though is that nurture is a powerful thing, and more often than not men who suffer from mental illness and become violent do so because of the way they were conditioned by their environment. take serial rapists and/or murderers for example - how many of these men grew up in dysfunctional homes with perverse ideas about sexuality, or perhaps were even victims of sexual abuse themselves? i know it's a touchy subject and i understand why, being a mentally ill SA victim myself, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of them did encounter their own traumas and unfortunately due to how boys are socialized they grow up externalizing that trauma in ways that put (mostly) girls and women at risk. i don't know how many times i've read stories about serial killers who as young boys watched their sisters or mothers being raped, understandably warping their impressionable minds, to then go on inflicting the same violence when they become young adults. but what of their sisters or mothers, the women whose very self was brutalized in one of the worst ways possible? what happens to them? arguably you could say they have more of a "reason" to grow up and start their life as a serial killer, and yet these stories are few and far between. girls and women are largely socialized differently than men are; they're raised to dehumanize themselves whereas men are brought up dehumanizing others for their own gain. women are more likely to internalize their own suffering and punish themselves for it, whereas men are more likely to externalize it and punish others (again, most often women rather than other men... wonder why that is!!! /s) i think this is part of why we get this "mentally ill person evil" trope over and over again, because on some level we recognize the ways traumatized and mentally ill boys can and do grow into selfish, angry, and violent men due to the patriarchal machine we're all forced into like a meat grinder. but sadly many of us aren't ready and willing to accept the role that the patriarchy plays in men's upbringing, so instead we default to the black and white: either it's "yeah mental illness IS evil" or "mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of violence rather than perpetrators". there's never any nuance, but are we surprised at this point?
I have misophonia too. It can be awful to live with. It’s isolating and disorienting. I experience really bad fight or flight. I often just want to escape. I do have violent thoughts, but only because I want to get away from the stimuli. I usually want to yell or take away what is causing the noise (ex. When eating). It’s so difficult too because people don’t understand the extent of it.
OMG SAME. Even tho ive never went to a doctor, i suspect I have misophonia. I just CANT stand some sounds and normally when its too intense for me, i have thoughts about hurting either me, to distract myself from the noise, or the person that is making the noise, and sometimes i wish them would just die. After that i feel like shit because its not their fault, obviously.
"i love men; i love jung hoseok" i cannot deny the fact i have said this *s a m e* sentence before (joking about your iconic one-liners aside thank you for putting so much time and energy into this video!!!! your channel is my favorite i am constantly sending your videos to my friends and being like !! look, listen, learn, (live laugh love??) anyways
ok but when you started talking about ableism and sanism i honestly started getting so excited. like i dont really hear people go into much depth about these things especially to the point of including multiple different experiences and opinions from disabled, neurodivergent, and/or mentally ill people. i just wanna say thank you because it made me happy.
I want to thank you for talking about how you've felt invalidated in your feelings by others because of a clinical diagnosis. I am neurodivergent and I often feel I'm nit allowed to express any frustration, anger, sadness, angst, excitement, or literally anything that isn't flat affect because it's always autisms fault I'm overreacting or some dumb shit.
People will always want to believe that serial killers are somehow mentally ill. The alternative is believing that healthy minds can do the most evil acts imaginable. But that's why I'm not fond of calling anything or anyone a personality disorder. What about toxic masculinity? It's certainly described using the same language as a personality disorder. Should that be a mental health defense in court? There's a core contradiction to our mental health system that needs a resolution. On the one hand,we want to avoid stigmatizing mental health disorders. On the other hand,"disorder" is a negative label. It's not actually good to be sick. I understand that conditions which hamper function need treatment. But listing "flawed personalities" is a winding and dangerous process.
The issue is that in terms like 'sociopath' and 'psychopath' or 'narcisst' we ascribe an illness where there actually is just a for the most part set personality structure. The defining symptoms of these 'disorders' are antisocial behaviors, so when we see those behaviors in people we automatically assume mental illness. We basically invented a medical category so we won't have to deal with the social issues actually causing antisocial behaviors and causing children to develop personality structures, respectively.
@@layla8830 Sure,but we could also just admit that everyone has flaws. I've loved a woman who was vain as could be. And that's the issue. This is a likeability barometer. Charismatic sociopaths aren't getting labeled. They're getting celebrated.
@@LezCharming I'd say the fact that charismatic sociopaths are celebrated is the issue with our social system overall. And just bc these people are generally liked doesn't mean they can't wreak havoc in people's life's. That's not to say that all of them do, but the thing stopping them are nothing more than enforced social or legal norms, not actual moral convictions. It's not a pleasant state of being for many of them either. They may have a desire for genuine connection, but are unable to ever achieve that due to their lack of empathy, they may have little to no emotional life resulting in a feeling of emptiness, they may have compulsive desires, they'll try to fulfill even at their own demise, like the need to be admired by others, wich is actually rooted in low self esteem. I believe these personality structures can actually be a benefit for society, there are professions and social roles in wich they play out positively, but we have to structure society accordingly. Everyone has flaws, sure. I'm a very vain and proud person myself, wich can and sometimes does hurt the people around me. But that's a flaw that exists in moderation, only so far as it's rigidly controlling my own behaviors, but not those of others. And it's fundamentally different from actively hurting those around me for my own benefit and having no remorse doing so.
@@layla8830 If people enjoy getting wrecked,it's hard to stop that process,even if I should. There's women I'd let stuff me into the truck of their car. What system is gonna fix that?
Have some issues with the term “able minded” has some nasty subtext. The term is neurotypical for anyone who doesn’t have a neurological ‘difference’, including mental illness, things like autism and ADHD, even traumatic brain injuries. Otherwise, love this video a lot I think it’s really cool and put a lot of info together cohesively.
was curious what nasty subtext there is with able minded? context: I'm disabled and am genuinely curious-- never heard someone say that before. I always just thought it was the flipside to "able bodied".
Holy shit that Criminal Minds episode about misophonia is so infuriating, I have it myself and it makes me want to die rather than wanting to hurt others or DRILL INTO PEOPLE’S SKULLS?? That is so laughably unbelievable and damn is it stigmatizing no matter what the hell they want to claim.
ikr i have sensory issues. so if people are being annoying and making noises i don't think "imma murder these people" i am too upset over the pain i am experiencing... from the noises. ashdjfjsjdjf. the worst thing i have thought is "can these people shut the fuck up" but that's not violent, that is frustration.
I myself was quite surprised at how conflicted I felt while watching the series....I was total creeped out by Joe's psychopathic acts of stalking, murdering, impersonating and what not...and then there were these calm moments where he was being a "sweet" bf and his crazy deeds went to some corner of my mind while I just thought wow cute. XD Also in season 3 I love how Love is actually a mirror of Joe, just without his "oh so holy" filter. She is him but he time and again tries to distinguish himself as more reserved and thoughtful and better than her...calling her the moster when she is just the rawer, perhaps truer version of him and she is surprisingly honest and upfront about it unlike him.
Uhhhhh I've never heard of this show, I don't use social media (cept UA-cam sigh), but in the early days of the internet, I had this happen to me. A guy found some picture of me online, somehow tracked down a lot of information about my life, then found some way to start chatting me up, then gradually revealed we liked all of the same stuff, oh my gosh what a good match. Then I don't know why, after a few months he confessed to me. He told me everything, all of the research, all of his plans for our future, how he'd been stalking me for months before he ever reached out, his total obsession with me, he'd made art of me, bought me presents he didn't send, even though he knew where I lived.... He was also extremely attractive. He could have gone out and legitimately found dozens of women who would want him. But instead he needed to do this. He was also aware of how sick it was, how it was not ok. I think he thought we were falling in love and he needed to come clean? To me he was a random dude I talked to sometimes, until he confessed. He never threatened me, and I never heard from him again when I told him we could not speak any longer. It was the first time I ever had a stalker. It was the least serious and it resulted in no attacks of any kind, not physical or social harm. But it shocked me to the core. Everyone thought it was a joke, but it was not funny. I also got a lot of responses that it shouldn't matter if it was creepy because he was hot. so yeah that was on the cusp of social media, and maybe it's clear why I don't use it. this video is real hard to watch
I'm really sorry that happened to you, that sounds terrifying. I'm glad nothing harmful came of it, but the fact that he did all that before he started talking to you is just...icky.
Going into 58:50 (from the perspective of one formally diagnosed autistic): It's true that Asperger's is now part of the ASD spectrum. The DSM IV had 3 separate diagnoses for autism back when it has out: ASD, Asperger's, and PDD-NOS (pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified). They were all in the same umbrella of diagnoses but there were some differences that separated them. I believe I got PDD-NOS when I was diagnosed since I had speech issues that made me too "severe" to have Asperger's. (Note that "severe" is in quotes since I am not a fan of the functioning labels as a perma-diagnosis) When the DSM V came out, those three categories were all lumped into ASD. That is one reason why Asperger's is seen as equivalent to ASD now. Side note: Others mentioned this already, but Hans Asperger is a nazi scientist, so some (myself included) don't really like to use Asperger's anymore. Everyone is different with what terms they prefer, but I personally like to use autistic for myself Side note pt 2: The DSM is not perfect especially if you are getting a diagnosis as an adult. I'm just using it as a frame of reference for how ASD is categorized for the general public
that is awful. having bpd doesn't make you a murderer or a bad person. you can be a good person and have bpd, like someone without bpd can be a good person.
I'm not even 20 minutes in, and I'm already gonna leave a comment just to say that I love this video so much lol. Thank you for putting the research and work into this. 👏👏👏👏❤️❤️
I’m clinically diagnosed autistic, and I was told during my assessment that if it had been 20 years earlier, I would’ve been called Asperger’s. I’ve been told over and over that I’m lucky for this. There is no difference between Asperger’s and ASD, both can have the exact same traits, as every autistic person does in different quantities so to speak. I’m more upset by MGG’s “mild autism” comment. There is no mild. It is not a spectrum from “mild to severe”, it is a variety of traits that each person will experience in different ways, in unique combinations for every single one of us. People call me a “mild case” because I’m articulate and I can convincingly fake my way through most social situations but I have incredibly severe sensory issues. Really wish people with no expertise would stop depicting us in media. We’re always doctors or caricatures of disability, no in between.
This made me realize that I might be on the spectrum (this isn't the only thing that made me think about it). I should probably try to get tested because I have major sensory issues as well, and to be honest I'm not taken very seriously. Everything is bright, loud, I don't like being touched, etc. I don't want to diagnose myself because I'm not a psychologist though. But I actually have asked a psychiatrist before about it, just once, and was completely dismissed, so I think it deterred me from asking again. I'm incredibly socially awkward but, like you said, I can "fake my way through it". I think I should talk to someone, so thank you for this comment it was very informative.
Speaking of "mild autism" (what bs), I have watched Meteor Garden and one of the main characters is supposed to have had "mild autism" during his childhood, but then because of another persons presence, it seemingly disappeared. when that person left, his "autism" was told to have reappeared. what the fuck. if people want to be more inclusive towards autistic people, maybe they should have done actual research. watching this, I've been so irritated (for obvious reasons). it just ruins my hopes that someday people will accept neurodivergent humans just as much as neurotypicals
I was diagnosed when I was around 5 and am now 26. I was diagnosed with aspergers. I was also called high functioning since I was very articulate and "you would never kn9w."
I had a similar experience when my mom watched this movie with an OCD character and told me she was glad I had my OCD “under control.” But I’m like??? It only seems under control because it doesn’t effect you and you don’t see it. I’m very good at masking and hiding my ticks or compulsions and a big part of my OCD is intrusive thoughts, which only I can see. People need to stop assuming people have “mild” cases of things when they don’t see what actually goes on.
Also diagnosed bipolar after an episode. Loneliest thing I've even through. It was so healing to hear you understand it so profoundly, as much I'm so sorry you've been through it. I'm SO glad you're still with us too.
Excellent job! You is such an interesting show, and ever since I’ve started watching the show I’ve found the portrayal of psychopathic Joe to be really unique, especially with how Penn Badgley is so in character with the specific traits of a possessive misogynist.
Now that I finished the video...I want to say that I appreciate you reaching out to others in the disability community to share their perspectives. I could relate to many of them, but the anon who commented that all aspects of her identity have been villainized in the media especially resonated with me. I know I've felt that for sure with my neurodivergence, my mental illnesses, my nonbinary status, and my romantic + sexual orientations. If they're not infantilized, they're ignored or treated as an 'other'
I clicked on this video to watch a commentary about one of my favourite show, and now that I have watched it all, I can say that I ended up learning so much, especially about the mental illnesses, thanks to the statements . I always really liked crime shows, like You or even documentaries, and now that I heard how mental illness is portrayed in these kind of shows, I really feel like I will watch them in a totally different way . As a cis straight white girl non-disabled, I learned a lot today, and the video itself was incredible, your way of talking, the words you chose were really cool , and as a french non english speaker, I learned a lot too, so thank you
I'm so grateful to hear you talk about the stigma against BPD and other personality disorders among providers. Its an unfortunate conversation I have to have with any clients I have who have been diagnosed with BPD (whether I agree its an accurate diagnosis or not). People with personality disorder diagnoses deserve as much respect and kindness as any other client, and its upsetting to know that many of them receive subpar care and don't have their experiences believed because of their diagnosis.
Just want to give my opinion on the autism/aspergers quote as an autistic person: Aspergers and autism are the same thing! It's not a 'different type' of autism or anything, its simply a difference in how autism presents in an individual, which is almost completely pointless to define as autism is individual to each person. You might see some categorise it as high (being aspergers) and low (being typical depictions of autism) functioning labels now, but they are also redundant and ableist as they determine 'functioning' by neurotypical standards, so completely useless as well. The autistic spectrum is not a sliding scale as a lot of people assume, you cannot be 'more' or 'less' autistic (you either are or you aren't) and the division between autistic people has caused a lot of issues for people on both sides. I wish there was a better way to describe the real autistic spectrum but all i can think of is that its actually more of a collection of varying traits, and every autistic person probably has at least a little bit of all of them, but certain traits are more prevalent in each individual and its the fact that a certain number of traits are present that make it diagnosable. e.g. both my autistic brother and i experience sensory sensitivity and communication difficulties as part of our autism, but the way we experience them is very very different, he can handle a lot of auditory sensory input, but cannot stand any other textures that are not his four particular foods, I cannot cope with more than one noise and really struggle going into public because of it, and I also really struggle with different textures in food, however I can cope with other sensory input like flashing lights with no problem. I also communicate very differently to my brother, who understands roughly 5 out of a 100 words you say to him (so he follows along conversations but doesn't fully engage), and yet while I am deemed 'articulate and clear' the way I speak means I am constantly misinterpreted by others, and my real feelings, thoughts, opinions, jokes, and intentions are 'lost in translation' as it were. Both are different presentations of the same traits. The way our autism presents is incredibly different, nothing shows that more clearly than the fact he was diagnosed at 2yrs, and I was diagnosed at 14yrs (this also has to do with gender but thats a whole other thing), however we will always have more in common with each other than we will with a neurotypical person. Which is what 'aspergers syndrome' tried to sell you: 'you're basically neurotypical, like, not quite, but basically.' I would've been diagnosed with aspergers had I been born 5 years earlier, but I am actually just autistic, because dividing autism up by how you present would mean making up a new 'sub category' or 'type' of autism every time. Really, aspergers was always kind of seen like the 'good' autism, because the connotations attached were that you were super smart, like above average, and you didnt have any symptoms of 'real autism'! you were autistic without being autistic! But you were also cold and robotic, you didnt feel pain or any emotion. And all that means is that you are denied help because you dont fit the autism stereotype. This is still really prevalent now, and I have to fight to be seen as actually autistic all the time, even by doctors (especially mental health professionals) because the stigma is still there. I can respect people wanting to keep the label if thats what they were diagnosed with, but the separation that was caused by doctors is useless and only harmful to the autistic community. I also think it's really worth mentioning that aspergers was named after a nazi doctor who helped the nazi's kill disabled children, and from what I can tell, he originally labelled the children(!!) who would go on to be diagnosed with aspergers by 1980's standards as 'autistic psychopaths' (of course context matters, there were not exactly the same words we would use back in 1938, but the implication was that they were emotionless, psychopathic. So both a mischaracterisation of autism and psychopathy. My point is we should not be using a 1930s nazi doctor's framework to explain, categorise or diagnose something as complex as autism. Here is an article that explains him and his life, and specifically his role in the nazi regime that i recommend, it explains it better than I could: molecularautism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13229-018-0208-6 Sorry for the incredibly long comment! I really enjoy your videos, you always explain yourself in a clear and focused way, while staying entertaining and humorous. You're one of my favourite creators, and thank you for all the hard work you put into your videos! Hope you have a wonderful holidays
(sorry for the long answer, I'm incapable of keeping anything short ever LOL may or may not absolutely have something to do with my disabilities/diagnosis/whatever) YES!!! So well written 👏 Important to include history of disability (ASD) science/politics, like the nazis when explaining why specifically Asperger's needs to go. Eugenics are still pervasive around autism in the 2020's... Yes, we need methods of evaluating autistic peoples individual support needs & strengths, BUT that does not at all justify the continued use of the same high- versus low-functioning & the "sliding-scale spectrum" idea, or Asperger diagnosis. Contrary to popular belief, THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO SUPPORT ASD. Incredibly frustrating to hear from autistic people themselves tbh. Like baby you don't (or at least we shouldn't) have to "settle" for or talk nicely about faulty systems to receive diagnosis & support 😩💔 Your words, "you were autistic without being autistic!" is such a great way of explaining Asperger's versus ASD. Something that enable autistic people's own internalised ableism to prefer to be stapled A versus ASD. The highly negative ableist view & treatment of ASD can make you comfortable in A diagnosis instead. Seen as "high-functioning" & less "othered" resulting in being more social security in human to human relationships & such. No wonder we see some autistic people diagnosed with Asperger's refusing to whatsoever identify with autism as a diagnosis, even though A is literally ASD so it doesn't make sense in one way but yeah I understand & respect you too. (What is written above is not including the DISADVANTAGE specific to this: people stapling you as high- versus low-functioning & it leading to lack of support you need, which of course is not an advantage at all) & YEP, the gender perspectives in diagnosis is a huge issue leading to for ex the ridiculously high statistics of late or no diagnosis of non-white/cismale people. Looking at gender & intersectional issues in diagnosis processes in general, how a lot of "specialists" knowledge & ideas decades old/based on their "own", ableist, white supremacy bullshit... it's not surprising. ASD diagnosis criterias were literally based on old ass "studies" on specifically western, white, middle school boys... The system was never created to assist us, only to divide & "other" us. How our diagnosis has been/is "used" in media is definitely not helping. To actually show autism correctly & with much more diversity (not just the typical white young cismale with pretty much the same personality/story/environment) in MEDIA would help change this. It's NOT hard to find autistic actors, or hard for autistic people to work in this field/environment (*cough* fuck SIA *cough*), or have autistic people guide you instead of allistic creators just doing whatever they want entirely based on whatever they've seen in media before, stereotypes & their own ideas. (PS. I'm white, European, 30-ish years old, AFAB nonbinary with a list of mental & invisible physical disabilities too long to mention LOL but including ASD, ADHD, ME/CFS, OCD, OCPD, various mental illnesses ETC ).
You said everything I thought when I came to that part of the video! Thank you! I am not diagnosed and honestly am currently not quite sure if I ever will be, whether that is because I'm not actually on the spectrum like I think or because the healthcare system is flawed here in Sweden too I'm not certain. But I have done A LOT of research and I am very passionate about the topic. So thank you for spending so much time on this full fledged comment! I wouldn't have felt right speaking for the autistic community when I myself am so unsure of my place in it, plus, she wanted people who had specifically been diagnosed so that's obviously also a thing. Heh. Anyways, have a good day!
I got my Aspergers diagnose at about six years age. I prefer Aspergers as a term - ever since that young age, to me Aspergers has held the meaning of "Oh, there's nothing that's wrong with me, I just have Aspergers" as well as the immense relief that brought. Autistic feels too undefined, like asking someone what they want to eat and getting the answer "food", even if correct. Aspergers in itself is already very different from individual to individual. I do agree with the previous point of the two diagnoses existing to divide people and that no one benefits from the divisions created, as well as it bearing an ableist and otherwise sadly stained history, yet I also feel it's not beneficial to lump everyone together. Since it goes from nonverbal to "but you don't look autistic", from masking a lot to not giving a shit, what can be supporting or necessary to someone can be belittling to others (catdammit, don't get me started on the belittling), and what makes someone feel (for lack of a less ableist term) not belittled would leave others out in the cold without what *they* need. I am so very tired of having to explain I'm just fine when it comes to the aspergers which I see as something good, simply me, but that I need blah blah help when it comes to the burnout, because that acts as an actual disability in my life. I'd not be surprised if this is another social issue future humans would look at and say "how uninformed they were, what silly notions they had". I'd gladly hear more reasons as to why Aspergers shouldn't be used. Gotta have something to mull over, yanno ^^ Also, fuck the nazis. Edit: A little bit of formating (I swear I thought I spaced stuff correctly) and some clarification in the third paragraph.
The thing is though, that people were diagnosed Asperger's by said Nazi if they failed to be sufficiently "volkish", a.k.a. pro- social in a Nazi propagandistic, able to have emotional contagion at Nazi pep rallies, etc type of thing. It's actually a compliment. We're intrinsically unfit to be Nazis.
I would also like to add, the demonization of trauma. I am someone with a whole host of trauma, especially childhood trauma, and seeing how people look at people with trauma honestly traumatised me more. It was like you had this plague, you were seen as dirty, shat upon, a responsibility, a burden, used, undesirable, difficult, etc. Sure, my trauma complicates basic situations, and makes me hesitant to form relationships or 'yield' myself to someone else, but I still want to have relationships. I want to have friends, good friends that know me, that know how best to relate with me. I don't want to hide my trauma and negative experiences because, more often than not, my trauma responses are misinterpreted for immature, irrational, and difficult, surprising behaviours, when if they knew about my trauma., they would understand why I acted or reacted in a particular way. also prior knowledge of these pre-existing conditions, would make for a better, more meaningful relationship, as they know what to avoid, what will rouse a negative reaction in me. the worst part is that I don't usually lash out, I just internalise these actions towards me and blame and shame myself for feeling this way about it, when the person might have intended no harm in it. Needless to say I have avoided romantic relationships like the plague, being 20, attracted to all genders and not been in a single relationship, and only recently, acquired close friends, (that our friendship started as trauma-bonding) which I've learned now is kinda dangerous, but we all work towards self-improvement, and share our therapy breakthroughs over a glass of wine. I am the happiest I have ever been, but getting here was no easy feat. also, really sorry for the essay, but I have more,, As a first gen immigrant of Nigerian parents, (that in itself is enough to send my therapist's children to private school) as a black, non-british person living in the UK, it's even harder, because, not only am I othered for being black, queer and afab, there's even less grace for me as a mentally ill, neurodivergent person, that for the longest time, I had to self diagnose, in order to just live and navigate life. When I eventually got my first diagnosis of depression, and was put on antidepressants, I didn't tell my parents, when I did, they were upset. To me, it seemed their main worry was their child being diagnosed as a 'mad' person, the clinical label didn't sit right with them. So, to my people, they just didn't acknowledge it because that would further mar the image if black people or immigrants, in an already xenophobic, racist environment. And to white people, they couldn't fathom, a non-white person, having the same ailments as them(it was like I was never a valid part of their community, also no suprise, this is how I felt in predominantly white queer spaces). This ostracization left me feeling worse about myself, and with no support. Honestly, downloading tiktok and subsequently finding black queer spaces, black neurodivergent spaces in the app literally saved me from the darkest years of my life. I had a space, a pocket to escape to when the world felt a bit much, and was able to create these spaces and find spaces like that in my immediate environment. This video was a masterpiece, I especially loved the segment where you highlighted the voices of neurodivergent and disabled people on ableism and sanism in media and the world around us. You deserve your flowers, hopefully you get like an award or something for these bangers because, your videos has taught me more than being in school my whole life has. And I get to access this for free!! You are a gem. Hopefully when I'm a bit more financially stable I can become a patreon and give back, however little I can
Finally started watching the series and I just want to say, I know the writers pride themselves on being able to incorporate the word " you" into almost every spoken line.
I love how it shows that Joe doesn’t care about who the women he’s obsessed with actually are. His next stalking victim could be any woman who gives him attention and looks like she “needs saving”
As someone who loved English, would have been an English major if I could afford it, and loves your videos, please don't worry about the long videos! The people who are tired of it can mind their business
Thank you for the intersectionality in your analysis ! WOW. As a black woman with mental illness, neurodiverse, chronically ill it’s so rare to find a perspective that captures the intersectionality.
honestly haven't watched the show, but I really enjoyed the video! Recently getting an ADHD diagnosis has definitely helped me a lot while also making me become very aware of the ableism that has been pushed on me. Talking with others who have various or similar diagnoses is really what was helped me in terms of coming to terms with the fact that my life will be a bit different. Medication and therapy of course are key, but actually coming to terms with this is how my brain works and I've got to negotiate with it. So many people think that you can just "fix" mental illness, but there's so much more to mental and physical disability. Existing with it, living with it, every day. Thank you for your beautiful and informative video!
I'm autistic. Asperger's is an outdated diagnosis. Some of us have more marketable obsessions and are better at masking. That doesn't make us less autistic.
It's one of my pet peeves when people try to differentiate between ASD and Asperger's. Same with ADHD and ADD. The latter for both conditions are outdated yet people swear they're still accurate and they aren't 😭
This probably seems like a tiny thing, but it means a lot: thank you so, so much for putting the word psycho in quotes. Pre-emptive apologies for the manuscript length comment. Psychosis is so deeply misunderstood and horribly mischaracterized, as is schizophrenia (and so, for that matter, is antisocial personality disorder). As someone recently diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder (it hasn't been confirmed by my psychiatrist, but my psychologist has been studying it and bipolar disorder for over 30 years, she's known me for 25, and she made the call/has the authority to write my service dog prescription) who has been coping with psychosis off and on for years and needs a service dog to help her cope with it, the way we're seen, treated, and represented in media (and in everyday conversation) is deeply hurtful and harmful, and actually fuels pathology - examples are social withdrawal/isolation, paranoia, and the chronic stress that comes from living in a society wherein people with family histories of psychotic disorders don't have children, for fear that they'll end up like me. It's a painful, sometimes lonely place. tl;dr Thank you for the care and thought you put into your creations, and your kindness and empathy for minorities of all kinds. It is noticed and appreciated, and so are you. 💜
Personally I only watched the first season of You because I hated Joe and Beck's death was upsetting because I wanted her to escape so it's been really interesting and eye-opening to see how a lot of people have sort of the opposite reaction. I don't judge anyone for enjoying the show at all but it's definitely interesting seeing the people who love Joe vs how people react to Beck and other female characters in the show. Brilliant video as always!
"but that's the thing about not really caring much for the romance genre -- you find it in media you're not really looking for it in" took the words right out of my aromantic brain
It truly was the fanbase that made me hate the show. I watched it bc the premise of a psycho stalker through the lense of the psycho stalker was interesting, so I watched it through that idea. I think people need to get used to the difference between a main character and a protagonist. Not every main character is supposed to be liked or rooted for, they're just supposed to be interesting enough to want to keep reading/watching.
thank you so much for talking about personality disorders -- it's so important, and so few people discuss them with the compassion you did. i am studying psychology and i (might? we're not sure yet!) have bpd. i am genuinely constantly scared of being a horrible, awful person who will inevitably hurt everyone i love. it's hard to look up anything related to bpd because all the advice is for people *without* bpd, who have the apparent displeasure of having to associate with A Borderline. often times, it feels like people would rather those with bpd just disappear all together. psychology is an ever-changing field. new things about the brain are discovered all the time; i just think it's a shame how people only take just enough interest in it to assist their ableist shit. anyway, this is an amazing video! you're really one of the best youtubers
As someone with fibromyalgia. Ariel's comments on the dismissal was almost painful with how accurate it was. My favourite is when I explain my lack of mobility and the person responses by saying "but you are a pretty young thing." One of the areas I've tried articulate and struggle to do well is how being young effects people's perception of disability, especially in people whose disability is not immediately visible. I've never loved talking about my body. I've spent years recovering from an eating disorder. But because of my disability my body and how people perceive it is always there. Because of deeply ableist views, there is incredibly damaging views about attractiveness and disability. Sexism and disability plays a huge role. So does ageism on both ends. Treating elderly disabled people as disposable and young people as faking it. We have a history of not researching dieases primarily effecting women and not listening to their symptoms. I have been called a hypocraditic by everyone and spent years of increasingly debilitating pain and doctor visits where I was dismissed as depresssed or pregnant (I wasn't even sexually active, but after telling the doctor this I went to what I thought was testing only to find out it was a pregnancy test). I was eventually hospitalized three times in excruciating pain before fibromyalgia was investigated. Three years later, my doctors have refused to diagnose me. "Though your symptoms align with fibromyalgia. we can't conclusively rule out all other dieases" "May I go through those tests" "You have no symptoms that would be explained by anything outside of fibromyalgia so I don't know why we would order additional tests." The doctor would then turn hostile at my unreasonable requests for simple things like bloodwork. The lack of official diagnosis means that I can't access disability nor can I get employment. I was working a physically demanding job when I got sick and had to leave because I collapsed and fell down stairs when having a flare. But despite numberous applications in my field and entry level jobs I won't be hired. Because if I mention I may need accommodations or the ability to work from home because I often do not have the ability to walk. They take one look at my legs their faces fall. And the lack of official documentation means it is not discrimination. There is no legal proof I have a disability. Of course, dismissal and disbelief happens to msny people and in worse ways. But I can't help but believe by people reactions that their perception of my attractiveness and age plays into how they trivialize the reality of my disability.
I’m so sorry to hear about all of that that you go through. I can’t even imagine how awful that’s gotta feel.. I can somewhat relate, cause I have clinical depression but I’m young and a “cheerful” person, “there’s no way I can be depressed”. I hope you get the proper help you need soon.
I’ve also been unable to get a diagnosis of fibromyalgia, despite fitting all the symptoms. My doctor explained it to me as “if I give you that diagnosis, you might have issues in the future with doctors not believing you, so if you go to the emergency room for abdominal pain or something, they might dismiss you and blame it on fibromyalgia.” Luckily I’m still getting treated, but I got diagnosed with chronic pain syndrome instead because that comes with less stigma, especially as a teen. It’s crazy to be honest, and I really hope you get some kind of treatment in the future. You aren’t alone
@@probablyjustamagpie5357 I am glad you are able to be treated and they caught it when you were still a teenager. I remember how scary it was to try to navigate not knowing what was happening. ❤❤
I have a chronic illness too, have been hosp'd for pain, was bedridden from 26-29. You MUST keep doctor shopping until you get a competent rheum, GP, etc. Try DOs instead of MDs (it's not woo-woo, investigate). You have no choice but to riffle through the deck or this will be the rest of your life. That said he is not wrong that a fibro dx is the scarlet letter. However this does not stop him from filling it out on disability ppwork bc disability is about FUNCTIONAL descriptions, not etiology unless yr in the blue book. You can find someone who will help you play the game and ALSO give you a freakin ANA test. I think his motivations are disingenuous. You do not need to disclose a disability pre-hire. Do so post-hire.
this is such a well researched video thank you dude and thank you for including first-hand viewpoints of real people (including yourself) with lived experience
!!!!love this and love your videos Just bc you asked about it! I'm autistic - Asperger's is a holocaust relic named after a Nazi doctor and was originally used to distinguish between autistic people in concentration camps who could do the work they wanted and autistic people who they felt should be killed. Its use in diagnosis stemmed from that view of autistic people...basically distinguishing those of us who they felt could be Useful to capitalism vs not. Autistic is autistic and every autistic person has varying traits, challenges, and strengths.
I used to love Criminal Minds, but on a rewatch, it was disappointing and insulting. Random grievance, but as someone with mental illness, it really annoys me how many “official” questionnaires ask if I have thoughts of “harming [my]self or others”. Like, those are two separate questions, surely? I constantly want to harm myself, but I almost never want to harm anyone else. This question was a factor in my being admitted to a ward, with a bunch of other people who had also answered Yes to that question. However, on the ward, there was no distinction made between those who wanted to self harm, and those who felt violent towards others. It did not lead to a relaxing or rehabilitating atmosphere. Anyway, thanks for another wonderful video, I really loved it. Edit: I’m diagnosed with ASD, but a psychologist once remarked that if I had been diagnosed as a child, it would have been classed as aspergers. He said (and this was his own personal view, I have no idea what other professionals think) that as he saw it, people with Aspergers or High Functioning Autism are those who can learn about and understand their neurodiversity enough to also learn coping, or more often masking, skills. I found that interesting.
Oh same, that question is always weird to me. Like. Sometimes I need to hit or bite myself as a result of stimulation etc. But I never want to hurt others. These two things are really different, never understand how doctors put them together.
On the difference between Asperger's and autism; that distinction is absolutely inaccurate to the way in which it was coined. I'm not very informed, but as far as I know Asperger's syndrome was basically named after a nazi who just separated the 'good' autistic people from the 'bad' ones, AKA those he thought could still keep up with their standards for labor and explotation. Basically those useful to capital. So yeah. I absolutely despise that term, as it's based on eugenics. Also just separating people based on if they are able to mask or not or being "high-functioning" is absolutely unhelpful and just perpetuates ableist standards and expectations. Plus, Allistic forms of communication are not necessarly the most efficient in every situation and there is growing evidence to support this.
@@notreal6762 you are correct, and I think most autistic people are aware of it’s problematic origins. I don’t think anyone is trying to erase that, or championing anything that implies one autistic person is “lesser” than another. It was more ‘people frequently use these terms anyway, regardless of how offensive they may be to some. Here is a way I try to make these terms less demeaning, since I can’t escape their usage.’ I didn’t mean to upset you or anyone else, as I said, I just thought it was an interesting viewpoint that was fairly relevant. Edit: maybe I should have added the context that he said this while discussing how unhelpful the high functioning label can be, as I had been masking my whole life and it was having such a negative effect. I was putting all my energy into trying to stay “high functioning” in other’s eyes, and it had completely worn me down to the point where I could no longer function at all.
@@irishalchemy Don't worry, I am not upset at all. Though I disagree with seeing utility in that definition, I didn't think your comment was malicious at all or that you were endorsing the origins of the term. Though I should not have assumed you didn't know for that matter. I hope your burnout is getting better, masking can be really draining, especially if you've been doing for so long. Good luck with everything :D
the bit in the beginning where you complimented us viewers felt really genuine and directed for some reason and i need it this morning, thank you, you’re my favorite commentary/video essay/media topic breakdown channel❤️
Shania, I want to thank you for sharing your experience with bipolar disorder. My cousin's husband was bipolar, though I don't know what type. He killed himself after a particularly violent night about a year ago. He was a deeply flawed man, but I don't consider him a monster like some members of my family. He was a good man who struggled with mental illness. And I am sorry that you have struggled so much, I understand very well how hard depression is. But we are both strong women and we will make it through.
The ending made me a fan for life. I cannot express to you how liberating it is to hear a beautiful person such as yourself, talk about their own mental health struggles. I am sitting in a dark room that suddenly became so so bright :) Thanks for sharing a little courage
Man, the whole thing with Reid being scared of his schizophrenic symptoms - I always really related to Reid because I have a grandmother who was schizophrenic and have some symptoms and am also probably autistic, and so I get terrified I’m going to develop schizophrenia mainly because having experienced psychotic symptoms I really fear dealing with the ordeals schizophrenia brings in its onset. Also as someone who is inherently kinky and growing up very religious, I watched criminal minds and believed I was a serial killer in the making lmao. There were episodes where the unsub would have similar sexual fetishes or kinks that would lead them to kill, and really would push the idea that fantasies always lead to the fantasized acts being carried out. I could understand Reid relating to the people he hunted because I saw myself reflected in them too - but it had a lot to do with the writers taking aspects of mentally ill and kinky people like me and putting those traits in characters that were LITERAL SERIAL KILLERS. It’s so messed up in so many ways.
when i was in college (which, admittedly, not that long ago), i took a class about psychological disorders and each week we focused on a specific group of disorders. i remember when we talked about personality disorders, my professor spent a huge chunk of the class time explaining how personality disorders haven't been updated in years, despite the apa writing in an earlier dsm that personality disorders would need to be updated as more research became available. it was a while ago, so i dont remember the specifics, but i definitely think the fact that personality disorders remain static in the dsm contributes to the stigma
Very informative and i really appreciate the people who shared their experiences with mental illness and how it's being portrayed in the media. Definitely food for thought
My mother has borderline personality disorder. Joe most definitely does not. To me (a layperson with personal experience as well as family historieS), my opinion is that Joe suffers from a morbidity of traits, non-specified, all stemming from complex childhood PTSD. Like watering a pot of different flower seeds and not knowing what will bloom. But like I said, I'm not traditionally educated... So here: some salt.
Thanks for including words from someone with DID. As a fellow system (person(s) with DID), anytime it's publicly pointed out how shittily we're portrayed in media I do a little internal dance; because our current media representation is either super triggering, inaccurate, sensationalized, or just plain not there. Legion, Split, and now the upcoming Moon Knight series... They all lean into the "super power" idea which I'm personally fine with, it makes it sound like less of a miserable time. But they also lean into the anti-hero/villain with "multiple personalities" trope. Why can't we have a straightforward superhero with DID who doesn't turn evil or have malicious alters. Like, we're just a traumatized group of people who have a really interesting coping mechanism in the form of hyper dissociation, to the point where our ego can't condense into one whole "identity" by the time we finish childhood. That's it. That's the game. Yeah there's a bit more to it, but the underlying point is, STOP VILLAINIZING PEOPLE WITH DISSOCIATIVE IDENTITY DISORDER.
I love how whenever someone shows even the smallest amount of kindness to Joe, he immediately becomes obsessed with them... And they usually reciporate too!
I remember reading statistics that people in people-facing jobs have a much higher likelihood of developing a stalker for the same reasons. Which is a major reason I want to avoid those jobs, even though I might like the actual work
It's because they get basically no kindness shown to them so they latch onto the first person who is even a little nice to them, even though they have to because it's a socially acceptable thing in society or they're doing their job and they have to be polite.
@@pissapocalypse I don't think it's always this, some people really do have trouble discerning attention and kindness from sexual attention, specially teenagers and not just male. I think it's a mixture of what you said to some people and just plain inexperience and wishful thinking in others.
Bashing society for being neurotypical and physically healthy will have horrible consequences for those needing the amazing capabilities society has to offer. Never attack the altruism of the healthy-wealthy-and-wise.
I don't know what's the polite way of saying that Shanspeare's videos are..... actually better than a lot so called documentaries. I was trying to be polite to the documentaries' producers.
on the aspergers thing you mentioned - partner of a person with autism and adhd (on paper), with adhd (on paper) from europe here. yes, aspergers was given out as a specific diagnose in this case around 15 yrs ago, but is now not used clinically anymore and integrated into the autism spectrum. the feel about the whole thing i get from listening to my partners' and his families story and all the research i have read, is that aspergers kinda got, and in some cases still gets thrown onto people with autism who are high functioning, ergo especially good at hiding their discomfort at existing in the current human system, or considered more intelligent than the average person, among other things. the general taste i get, with the media and context i have been presented in my life, is of autism being the thing you avoid as those are the uncomfortable, rigid, nonverbal, sometimes violent beings in wheelchairs, and aspergers being the quirky and awkward nerd people who are okay, sometimes cute, mostly just a little annoying. which is bullshit, just so we are clear here. also notice me using 'beings' vs. 'people', there definitely is some dehumanizing going on. it is way too late where i am to write a whole ass rant about what i have learned in the last couple of years since i got my own diagnose and learned to live, but in case it interests you, this is at least a little bit of context to the topic.
it really frustrates me how people think autism is one presentation or another, or that knowing one person/character with undesirable qualities means autistic people are just annoying and "crazy" or that autistic people are pure lil savants bc of some super smart character or person they know. autism isn't one dimensional. it also doesn't shape or define a person. autistic people can be flawed and can have desirable qualities like any other person. this applies to people with other "disorders" or even without too. (it's in brackets basically bc i really despise mental diagnoses being seen/upheld as inherent by both the psych/med industry and the general public including people with diagnoses, instead of existing in people while shaped by context).
When I first watched you, I remember not really having an opinion of beck. I didn’t hate her or love her, like I am with most other characters in media. But when I started watching videos about the show and going to fan spaces, I saw so many people complaining about her that it pretty much changed my opinion towards her. It’s sad honestly, I didn’t realize how biased and sexist a lot of the hate against her was.
For context, I am a white woman. Normally I don't come into a room and announce that but considering the topic matter I find it relevant. XD Joe is the embodiment of everything about men I have ever been scared of and/or distrust. For me the show is fascinating the same way watching a great white scoping out a seal is fascinating and it's probably the only show characterized as "romance" I've ever willingly watched. Looked forward to. When Marion entered the picture I thought to myself, "She's the one whose going to take him down. She is past the point of putting up with any newly introduced shit piles in her life. She's a proven survivor. She is our champion." I can't even grasp how people saw her as a villain. She was the woman I was waiting three seasons for. Who the fuck would villainize Marion??
@@Sam-0827 She has depth, complexity, substance. She's the only one that doesn't seem to be made of thin air. Perhaps those that villainize her lack these same qualities themselves.
I think one reason people have an easier time forgiving things like murder in fictional characters is that it's too "big concept". That is to say, it's not something most people have to deal with in their everyday lives (thankfully!). However, everyone has to deal with someone who they find annoying - siblings, co-workers, etc. - so it's easier to hate these traits in fictional characters as it's easier to relate to their own lives.
I’m at 1:25 and I’m disabled and I appreciate you so much for letting us talk. Thank you. For me, it feels so hard, exhausting, and fruitless a lot of times I’ve tried to put my thoughts and experiences into words so for everyone who shared their experiences, thank you so much. More ppl need to hear our voices so we can start to work on the systems that make living w our disabilities even more difficult and harmful. You are amazing. Thank you all so much.❤️
sorry to be off topic but HOLY I am distracted by how nice her voice is, it's calming me down a truly ridiculous amount. Also, it tooke me no time whatsoever to like this video because she is killing this topic and damn I can appreciate good art
My friend told me once, about one of my many ramblings on my undiagmosed chronic pain: if you feel it, it is real. Those words healed something in me I didnt know was broken. Him saying that, in such a gentle, loving, and accepting way, made me really know how much my friends believe me. Many of my friends suffer from chronic pain, as birds of a feather flock together, but this particular friend doesn’t. Hearing something so accepting from an able bodied person felt life changing, not to be overdramatic. I wish that disabled reprentation in the media were better, both as a disabled person and someone with many disabled loved ones. Thank you for this video.
Check out the trope “ambiguous disorder”. It addresses a lot of the stigmatizing issues of now giving a attributes to a characterization which are strongly tied to mental disorders and/or neurodivergence in the cultures mind to the role of a character while beating around the book and never confirming a diagnosis for them. It’s a double edged sword, but is an issue in that it can then lead to actual symptoms of mental illness being handled in these portrayals without delicacy or grace deserved to them. See Sheldon in the Big Bang theory- a lot of his quirks are laughed at for being ridiculous and such an annoyance to the rest of the cast; however these quirks are strongly relatable to many asd audience members. If Sheldon was confirmed as being on the spectrum suddenly the jokes at the expense of his minds way of processing things would be unmasked as hurtful and would never pass. However without the diagnosis the symptoms being mocked shared by those who are on the autistic spectrum are still being stigmatized and made fun of. Your segment about You: A psychological study brought this up for me and it’s going along with what you were saying with more examples
Thank you for sharing about your mental illness. I have bipolar II aswell and it sometimes gets really lonely to go through it alone, when people around you don't understand anything at all what it's like. Seeing people share their stories encourages me to keep on going and don't feel "crazy" ♥️
Can we just appreciate how Penn Badgley (Joe’s actor) just gets it?? Like sometimes the actors who play bad characters either don’t really understand it or play into the fans love for the character too much, but he knows exactly what he’s doing. He fully knows that his character is such a evil, complex villain that could very well exist in real life, and that there are many men that think the way he does, so he knows the responsibility he has in portraying Joe in the right way. Like ugh this man is so smart I love him💖
Yes, like he understands Joes psyche and also how that mindset of his character is further protected/motivated and somehow ignored by society. He understands how Joe gets away with the things he does and its very refreshing.
He is such a good actor that whenever I see photos of him on social media I’m like, “he’s up to no good...”
I understand that actors are not their characters, but he does such a good job at invoking these uneasy feelings that it takes me a moment to remind myself that (to our knowledge) he isn’t like that irl.
If he was more himself, understanding his job, but this is better in real life! Just make a show about him lol 😆 but truth. He's a great actor and understood the assignment
yes! and he regularly talks about misogyny culture and r*pe culture and seems to really understand it. he’s honestly such a good guy outside of the characters he plays
honestly i think he’s aware of the nuances surrounding the show since he’s spoken about them multiple times, but if anyone’s seen his music videos for his band and actually looked at the lyrics, i think he might resonate with the character more than we think
You used to cause serious arguments between my boyfriend and I. I hated Joe and he hated Beck. Then I realized he can’t related to my fear and hatred of Joe because he’s a man. He doesn’t know the real fear of dating someone that likely can and will kill you. My worst fear in dating being abused and killed. His worst fear is being lied to and cheated on.
there is a obvious difference in safety between the 2 of them. he kinda sounds like a psycho if he thinks that is really the worst scenario, given the 2. it's like saying every man is a rapist so he could not possibly know or care the pain it brings to you
Hopefully ex-boyfriend
Neither of them are good people, but Joe is clearly the worse of the two. He's terrifying. Like yeah, beck cheated, but Joe killed multiple people. Does your boyfriend side with Joe or something? I hope not. Women's fear of being abused and killed in relationships is justified, and so is the fear of being cheated on, but one is definitely not the same as the other. He should be happy he doesn't have to fear for his life everytime he goes on a date with someone new.
Hey didn’t know this got so many likes. My fiancé and I spoke seriously about it and he understands everything he was just short sighted in the moment.
Also, he never sided with joe
watching Joe not being able to stand Love was the funniest thing because he was just as worse as her. he just couldn’t stand the fact that she was literally his female version
Indeed, it's actually darkly hilarious when the psychotic serial killer is repulsed by ANOTHER, worse serial killer! 😂
And here I thought they were gonna be like a cool duo and oh was I wrong 🤣
i really cackled, like that was too funny 🤣
Exactly! He hates himself, of course he'd hate her. He hates love, of course he'd kill it/her.
I think you meant “as bad as her”
I actually really liked Beck because she was, in her words, such a mess. She's one of the most realistic women I've seen portrayed in media. And yeah, I found her annoying, I wouldn't be friends with her. But she's a fleshed out person, unlike so many other characters. I love in the last episode of season 1 when she screams "its my mess."
I despised Beck, but I saw myself in her so much more than any other female character in media. She was insincere and rude and raw. The more I know about her, the more I hate her because she is me.
@@HumbleDial honestly this, because all the traits I hated in Beck were traits that I had. It felt like there was no way to just "oh I wouldn't have done that" my way out of it because Beck is as human as the rest of us
Totally agree. She was very real and full of normal flaws. Sometimes a bit annoying, but who isnt in real life? She still had lots of redeeming moments and qualities.
people say she deserved to be killed, but i totally disagree. was she a good person? not really, but shes a regular, messy woman in her 20s
Beck is just NORMAL. And people treat her like that's such a crime.
I think the choice to introduce Love as a mirror image of Joe was a brilliant choice by the writer(s). He hates Love even though him and Love have practically the same motivations. The fact is that Joe can’t stand the idea of a woman that would take action for herself. He considers her actions as less noble than his purely bc he expects that men should do all they can to ‘chase’ and ‘capture’ a woman while women should sit and wait instead of being violent, as Love is. That’s why he loved Beck, bc he could chase her all he wanted and she didn’t want to be caught and could be considered pure and angelic in comparison to Love’s inner violence and explosive emotions. Him and Love were probably perfect for each other in a terrible way if Joe wasn’t so completely self-righteous and entitled with a debilitating saviour complex. That’s my piece.
totally agree
💯
100% this
I would also add that Love is a commentary character for those who are in love with serial killers. You know the ones that fan edit them with flower crowns and such on Tumblr? The ones who think they would somehow be exempt from the awful things the serial killer did if they met, just because of love. If they did everything right, they would love them, no matter what? Especially because people did romanticized Joe Goldberg online. I thought it was sorta the perfect commentary on that. Although, I do hope the people that romanticizes killers get the help they need. But yeah, those are my two cents.
@@MichiBell I like this interpretation.
I’m actually shocked that a lot of people didn’t like Marienne’s character?! I loved her from the first scene she was in.
Ikr!! Her story is so tragic. I really liked her!
its because she's black
@@ratatouille4381 this. If she were white the general public would adore her character. It’s just blatant colorism imo
I loved her as well.
Partly thanks to Tati Gabrielle, I like her in most things 😊
I loved You immediately, but I never loved Joe.
I loved You because, as someone who grew up in an abusive home terrorized by an abusive man (who has never truly been held accountable for his actions), I LOVED that the show was so adept at portraying the way toxic, abusive humans weasle their way into the lives of the people they abuse.
Beck wasn't stupid: she was manipulated and gaslit and abused. Beck wasn't an evil person: she was human. And Joe isn't a boogeyman who only an idiot would fall prey to: Joe is a bad, bad man who chooses to hurt others and actively seeks to find the most effective ways to do it.
It's so frustrating and honestly devastating to see people worshipping Joe and hating his victims (and those who survived him). It makes me, as a survivor, feel unsafe and unwelcome. Victims and survivors don't need to be anything, do anything, act any way, or fit any mold in order to be taken seriously, protected, respected, and given justice...but I guess the world isn't ready to accept that, yet 😕
I completely agree. A lot of people always want the “perfect victim” and so they’re very quick to victim blame or lose empathy for them when they don’t fit that box.
you've perfectly summarized why i've been hesitant to watch the show. it's exactly up my alley for the reasons you've described, but as someone who has also suffered domestic abuse, seeing some of the fan response to this show as well as hero worship of joe a la the joker (seriously y'all... wtf?) has made me likely to hold off watching it until it's finished and everyone has moved onto something else.
I also loved You and never loved Joe. I was told about this show by a (male) colleague, whose description kind of made it sound like a black comedy which satirises rom-com tropes - which it is kinda, but it was way more thriller than I expected and maybe subsequently I immediately was totally grossed out by Joe and was rooting for Beck to get away. I've also been disturbed and off-put by the fan reaction to Beck and I think it's a really troubling symptom of the internalized misogyny that a lot of these young fans are coming up with. Honestly the real horror of this show is reddit.
@@peggy7744 the real horror of anything is reddit, to be sure!
@@peggy7744 pH ttu
Penn Badgley is doing god's work for playing bad men (Joe, Dan in Gossip Girl) and then talking about how horrible they are
On the criminalization of mental illness: here's a case that happened when I was in high school. There was a mentally ill person in our community who was homeless because they couldn't hold down a job and (ironically) their mental illness got in the way of navigating the welfare system to get on disability and a social worker to help them get the resources they needed to get housing, food, etc. So this person hung out downtown, and a lot of people got annoyed with them. But they couldn't figure out how to get them off the streets either into a group home or a mental hospital or whatnot, because those services are underfunded. So one day, this person went into a convenience store and started to get themselves a slushee. They were talking to themselves. The store owner called the cops. The cop came, harassed the mentally ill person, and the person threw the slushee at them. So the cop arrested them, and they were charged and convicted of theft (of the slushee, which they might have been planning to pay for) and assault (for throwing the slushee). Boom! That person is now a violent criminal! ... if you only look at the court records, instead of what actually happened. And this person was white, I shudder to think what might have happened if they'd been Black.
I shudder to think that too
I grew up in the homeless community in my area because my parents battled drug addiction for most of my early life. In my experience about 80% of them have similar experiences to this. Another thing to consider is that in a way drug addiction is often similar to mental illness because it develops as a response to trauma that is often very difficult to cope with, and has similar and sometimes indistinguishable negative impacts on people's lives.
@@lastetaslocas69
Long term drug addiction can be as debilitating as sever mental illness. It's not just the fact that drug addiction is correlated with untreated mental illness, but drugs if done enough for a long enough will change the physical structure of the brain.
This even happens with alcohol.
Past a certain point, chronic drug use can result in symptoms similar to mental illness, if not outright give rise to them.
I am literally shuddering in my boots just thinking about it
Fam, the prison industrial complex swallows the mentally ill whole by the dozen.
I had to pick up a friend after a drunk and disorderly, and saw a mentally ill person in the drunk tank. He clearly had no capacity to care for himself and was basically harassed by detainees and officers alike.
I almost intervened, but remembered my black face and those blue suits and shiny badges and thought better of it.
It's fascinating how Joe continues to see himself as a hero when he's blatantly not. It's horrific.
It's even more horrifying that there's actual men like that. You'll come across them in dating apps more often than not. Joe is a misogynistic arrogant delusional jerk with a savior complex disguised with a handsome face.
its limerence
I think it relates to the truth is that the scariest fact about the world is everyone see themselves as the main character and everyone sees themselves as the hero: no matter how dark and depraved their actions may be.
"No one is a villain in their own story"
@@stargirlabi_111 cognitive dissonance
“are you… flirting with me?”
*gags*
🤣🤣🤣
i'm a cleaning lady, and anytime we leave business cards somewhere to attract clients, I make sure that they're the ones that have my cleaning partner's name and not mine. we get more calls/respect/better attitudes when the name on the card is "Allender" and not "Domingues". it's depressing.
Really unfortunate.
Shanspeare - the Whispering Queen of Thumbnails
Now listen 😂 we can’t all be mr beast!
@@Shanspeare mr beast? I'm just tryna get like you but with a beard... Wait you had a beard too 🤣🥴
OH FUCK ITS FOREIGN HI FOREIGN
I don't even agree that Beck is a bad person: just disinterested and experiencing an unfulfilling relationship with man who doesn't care to actually know her.
I thought he did get to
@@JP-et9hv was she even officially with Joe to "cheat" on him
@@JP-et9hv I don't think cheating is that bad no. I think abuse and neglect is much worse lol.
@TN I think I just disagree that the act of cheating does all if those things. Cheating can happen in the context of an emotionally abusive relationship or it can happen not I that context. I just don't think it by it self is that bad. 🤷🏿♀️
@@JP-et9hv remember, Joe is an unreliable narrator. As far as I can see, they are a friends with benefit relationship. Not exclusive or romantic. As far as I can see, the relationship is intimate but not the intimacy you'll find in a committed couple but in a one night stand couple. So in this situation only Joe sees them as a thing.
I somehow liked all woman: Beck was most relatable, swinging between the extremes of being morally correct and morally corrupt, with the rather fascination of latter (which is the entire subtext of the show), Love was privileged and unhinged, just like Joe. Marianne was ambitious and just trying to meet ends meet while also coping with tricky divorce and toxic ex husband. Candace wasn't given much of storyline apart the one we see in flashbacks (which is from Joe's perspective) but she did come to save other women from Joe's future mistreatment instead of just moving on with her life after almost losing it. Karen was really helpful to Claudia & Paco. Delilah was also complex and trying to bring herself and other little girls of Hendy's wrath justice. Sherry even though was superficial at first, slowly through Love's friendship with her opened for a more nuanced behaviour and traits of surviving in a superficial world and finding herself first than finding a perfect partner whose validation will make her whole(although Cary also looked perfect superficially).
I find it interesting and very cool actually that all women characters were so complex and had personalities and interests outside of just joe which is almost opposite for lack of better word to joe, his whole thing is finding someone to love him, fill the hole his mother made and also be the perfect mother and women, oh and books! He judges everyone and is in a lot of ways nastier than those he judges, the exception being love and hendy-who also hurt people in a horrific way.
I am happy to see somebody not hating Beck, because I remembered that there was a whole hate campaign on the internet in the You fandom. I've never really understood why
im sorry but beck was the absolute worst
@@mississipi1103 I feel like it’s just self-projection at this point, at least that was why I personally found her annoying in the first season. Out of all the YOU girls she was by far the most relatable “young woman navigating her young adult years”, and let’s be honest, most people watch shows like this to get away from the realities of life, not to get sucked right back in with characters who are a true reflection of themselves
Maybe it's cause I read the book but Beck was a terrible person. The fact that she wasn't a "good" person made his obsession all the more unreasonable. Joe wouldn't have liked Beck outside of his murderous obsession with her.
Joe put all of his romantic interests on a pedestal until he realized that they are imperfect. He's hypocritical because he's so imperfect that he can't ever be authentic in a relationship. When he met Love, she was finally a perfect match for him but it was too difficult because it was like looking in a mirror. They should have continued therapy alone, as neither of them opened up enough in couples therapy.
I mean, to be fair, they were never going to be able to completely open up since that would have ended up in both of them going to jail
Where he needs to open up in is the therapy share circle they have in prison
@@saraergonot technically no, a therapist is legally bound not to say anything (including murder) about their patient unless they have (written and signed) consent from the said patient or someone's life WILL be in danger.... you can tell your therapist that you killed someone just before you entered their office and they legally cannot and will not do anything because it has already passed. but if you tell them that you WILL kill someone, then they can step in and alert the authorities
Love said it herself "a perfectly imperfect girl"
@@catherinetheegreat8742 Is this true?? Like are you a therapist cause this is genuinely interesting, I cant imagine having to just sit on that sort of information
Found it so interesting the way that Joe hated love for being "impulsive" with her kills. If you pay attention to the way they navigate the world Joe would kill to get what he wanted and Love killed to keep what she already had. To protect her brother from abuse, to keep her husband(s) from leaving her after she played super wife. Love is calculating like Joe but he never respected that about her because he saw her as a problem and not a person once he got to know her. She planted that wolfsbane months before she ever used it, and she had used it years before on her first husband. Hwr relationship with Joe feels like a fulfillment of the fantasy life she had desired with her first husband. She had been begging him for a baby, I wouldn't be surprised if she got pregnant on purpose to lock Joe down. Over season 2 we witnessed several sex scenes that she initiated that didn't involve protection. This woman is 30 something, she knew the deal.
When she saw Joe for who he truly was, the glass cage, knocking teeth out of a dead woman's mouth, burying a body together... she chose him flaws and all, and he was disgusted by her "weakness" for it. She was a woman he didn't have to prove his value to, because she loved the parts of him he was disgusted by. She clings, he chases. But both act out of fear of being alone, but Joe doesn't realize he also fears being seen. (The stupid baseball cap is the cherry on top.) At least Love was brave (?) enough to bear witness to the truth of who she chose to partner and honor her commitment to a violent man... by becoming increasingly violent herself over the course of their relationship. She was right, they were perfect for each other.
THIS THIS THIS. Joe kills to get wants and Love kills to keep what she has. I never thought of it this way, but so well said. This needs to be pinned at the top for all to see.
Bruh... well said!
That's why I felt sad when she died. The ending was epic, I did love it. However, while I'm not really a fan of either of the two, I did like Love more than Joe, because while Love actually accepted Joe for who he was, Joe became the hypocrite that made me think "wow, YOU'RE allowed to kill for those you love but SHE is crazy when she does it? And didn't you put yourself in that situation? How foolish can you be?"
Joe, for his numerous crimes and faults - is the product of abuse that led to manslaughter, subsequent abandonment by mother, group home abuse, & foster abuse
Couldn’t have said it better the women that hate Love suck and the guys that hate on her she’s her real self tbh she’s better than beck lmfao
I absolutely LOVE this author. The line where Joe says "my tragically ill girlfriend Guinevere Beck, I now see she had Borderline Personality Disorder" I cannot stressed how hard that made me laugh. It's so painfully ironic and accurate that I couldn't help but laugh! The amount of men who I've heard say their ex-girlfriends "(probably) had BPD" is just so telling. It largely affects women, and for some reason it is the one cluster B personality that mental health professionals refuse to touch (gee, wonder why that is...). BPD suffers endure a barrage of both mental health stigma, and sexism, and it's honestly very upsetting. Especially when perceived or real rejection is a huge trigger for them.
Shanspeare saying Doctor Strange instead of Doctor Sleep is iconic behavior tbh
LMAO did I really?? 😭 it’s the goatee, it was distracting me
@@Shanspeare 35:15 💛
I thought the author of the book used Doctor Strange. I was confused.
A friend saw this and sent it forward. It's surreal seeing your work cited and viewed by thousands of people. Thank you for talking about these issues and I look forward to seeing more.
It was an amazing source!! Thank you so much for putting so much work into it! ❤️
The ownership part is triggering. My ex husband, as soon as that ring went on my finger, acted as though he owned me. His version of who I am is not based in reality, which happens a lot with a lot of men. When I left he told me that I couldn't leave because I was married to him. The sense of entitlement is staggering.
I'm really sorry that happened, it must've been terrifying. One of my worst fears is that I date someone, fall in love, it goes well, we date for years, and suddenly he shows his true horrifying colors. Then what do I do? I love him, I don't want to leave him but I know I have to. And what if we live together?
It's just scary because men can seem wonderful for so long and then one day they appear to change out of the blue, but it was right there and you just didn't see the signs until it was too late.
It's just... scary.
@@pissapocalypse same! I also have a fear of dating a man and believing that he loves and respects me and live with him for the rest of my life without knowing that he calls women "holes" behind my back or something like that. It's such an irrational fear since there's no danger in this scenario but just the thought of wasting my life and my love on someone who doesn't even view me as human for some reason terrifies me. Every time I come across misogynistic comment I think "poor women in your life, they don't even know..."
even beyond implicit messaging, phrases like "get the girl" remain pretty popular to this day. the way you see some men talking about ppl like stay at home husbands too, you see people asking how that could possibly be preferable to living alone. as if the goal of a partnership is not partnership but a man getting his own personal assistant
As a person who has OCD, I can tell you that my room is rarely ever clean. I don't even put my clothes into drawers. My clothes live on my floor. What I actually do compulsively is far less glamorous. I peel the skin on my hands and feet, frequently to the point of bleeding. I frequently feel paranoid, and then i gaslight myself because I don't know if i feel this way because that's actually what's going on or if it's because I'm letting my own anxiety rule me and skew my perception of reality. I have intrusive thoughts, and for a while i thought i was a terrible person because i acted on one of those thoughts when i was a kid, because I didn't know how else to get rid of the thought. I would say that Joe's need to collect things for his box would match some of how OCD presents in me. I get the urge to collect certain things. I'm not going to say what, though I'm sure people will imagine things infinitely worse than reality. Still, admitting it feels deeply personal, because the shame of knowing that i shouldn't do it but allowed myself to do it anyway can be overwhelming, and that's deeply personal. However, my current compulsions don't hurt anyone but me. That's probably the case for most people with OCD.
Thank you so much for this, I also have OCD, this is most truthful comment I've ever read
After watching You, I can’t watch Japanese romantic dramas without cringing with what the main guy does for the girl because it’s stalker behavior 😅 like the guy somehow ends up in the room with no invitation or the girl wakes up to realize she is on the guy’s lap when she fell asleep on the couch (and they aren’t even dating 💀) Plus the guy doesn’t take “no” for an answer like you said in the video 😭
Same oh my gosh I have some friends obsessed with romantic kdramas but the guys are always grabbing the girl’s wrists and pulling her when she tries to leave and practically forcing himself on her half the time, even when she says no! It makes me sooo uncomfortable 😔
@@cheeseisherelive753 Ughhh I hate those... so much. There's this one kdrama I watched where four guys like the same girl- she kind of works for them as sort of a live in maid (but also acts as discipline?).
And the main love interest is always grabbing her, ridiculing her, and doing the worst shit- but it's ok!!! He saved her from that falling vase or some shit! So now everything he does is romantic, even if he berates her for the dumbest reasons hahaha!
@@cryforhelp7270 yes they’re always like that!! It’s kind of outrageous tbh, there’s no way this is actually considered romantic I hope ;-;
Thats why I like history Asian dramas, because Asian history was so wacky that you don't know if it's real recounts or exaggerated accounts from when they were written in that time
@@your_dad_on_vacation same! not to mention a lot of historial asian dramas feature badass bitches who would simply eviscerate a man for trying to strong-arm her, which you love to see.
This is very long so be warned :)
I was diagnosed as autistic this year and Aspergers Syndrome is my official diagnosis so I want to talk about the Reid/Gubler situation from my own perspective. I’m doing this mostly from memory so if there’s something I miss/get wrong feel free to reply and correct me.
Aspergers is my official diagnosis because I’m Scottish and we have a different criteria to the USA. It’s important to note that way we define Autism has varied over time and does vary from country to country so some autistic people are attached to Aspergers as a label and others are not.
The criteria for Aspergers for me was - this person meets the criteria for autism but didn’t have developmental ‘issues’ as a young child. I think it’s important here to say that what the allistic (non-autistic) people diagnosing me meant was that these developmental differences weren’t visible to them. That was the recurring theme of the diagnostic process - because I’m verbal and had good marks in exams Im only a ‘little bit autistic.’
There are various stigmas that an autistic person faces diagnosed or not but what I found before, during, and, after diagnosis was that people either didn’t believe I was autistic or belittled any difficulties I might have because I’m ‘high functioning.’
I’m autistic despite my official diagnosis. I’ll tell people that I’m autistic instead of saying I have Aspergers because it means that even if I’m treated like a child my support needs are taken seriously. Aspergers is an of the umbrella term of Autism. To have Aspergers is to be Autistic. The only differences between people who have Aspergers and autistic people is basically how ‘intelligent’ you are perceived to be and how well you are seen to ‘function’.’ Incase it isn’t clear dividing people by intelligence and function is ablest and the terms in this context are also ablest.
For me, Aspergers as diagnostic label is incredibly reductive because Aspergers is equated with being high-functioning. The use of functioning labels hurts all autistic people because it divides us into who can and cannot be of use. It takes into account only what autistic traits can be observed by the very allistic medical professionals dealing with us. This means the understanding it provides is inaccurate. So from that standpoint Gubler saying Reid has Asperger’s syndrome and minor autism is how most of the professionals I have encountered would characterise me. This characterisation is hurtful.
TW for ableism and murder
Not sure if I’ve labelled the TW in the best way but this will touch on Nazi Germany related things.
Hans Aspergers is the person who coined the term Aspergers. He essentially worked with autistic children in Nazi Germany and separated the ‘intelligent’ children who he said had Aspergers from the rest. Those who didn’t receive the label of Aspergers were referred by him to a clinic that was a centre for ‘child euthanasia.’
Here’s a source
www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-truth-about-hans-aspergers-nazi-collusion/
Most autistic people do not like using Aspergers as label for themselves because of this.
The way Reid is described by Gubler is not good. Not the most articulate way of saying it but I’m struggling to explain better. I’ve given my own experiences with the Aspergers label as well as it’s past to give an idea of what it means to be defined by the word Aspergers. I personally hate the term. A lot of the autistic people I know don’t reach out for help because they don’t feel they’re disabled enough. Aspergers as a term does nothing to help with that. Aside from its origins which are disgusting it just reeks of casual ableism. People tend to diminish the support needs of disabled people in general but when your labelled as ‘functioning’ your support needs are not treated as at all important. At this point, I should say that I have an incredible amount of privilege as an autistic person because I’m able to mask and can present as kind of neurotypical some of the time. This, however, doesn’t diminish what I can’t/struggle to do compared to the allistic people I know.
Gubler’s way of talking about autism and Criminal Mind’s treatment of Reid really annoys me. I have always seen Reid as autistic but the way the show jokes about him being autistic really hurts. Gublers comments while not as bad as others (Benedict Cumberbatch saying that thinking of Sherlock as autistic is lazy and gives people going through it false hope) are frustrating.
What, for me, this boils down to is how bad of term Aspergers is and how it can contribute to the ableism faced by autistic people.
Sorry this is so long. Hope this makes sense and isn’t too jumbled.
Hi. I'm in England and a lot of what you've said really resonated with me as someone who is questioning the possibility of being on the spectrum (very late in life) and considering seeking a diagnosis. Your description of Aspergers/Autism is also what I have understood both of the terms to mean. Thank you for sharing this information.
I know I’m late to the party but thank you so much for taking the time to write this out so clearly and thoroughly. This is amazing information that I am going to pass on! :)
Okay but what is the alternative?? It's definitionally true, some autistic people are much higher functioning than other autistic people, it's a spectrum for a reason.
@@20somethingcimena They’re not, actually. I will give you an example. One autistic person is finishing their masters degree. Another cannot tie their shoes. Who is high, and who is low? Both people are me. Most autistic people have a mixture of strengths and weaknesses, the same as every other human. There was never a hard line separating “high” from “low”, and this frequently caused confusion, miscommunication, and inequity in care.
The spectrum is more akin to ice cream flavors than the color spectrum (infrared to ultraviolet). Mint ice cream is not “more ice cream” than strawberry ice cream - they’re different flavors but we can agree they’re still ice cream. So rather than fighting over what’s “more ice cream” - who’s higher or lower - it’s better to just specify the flavor - where the specific difficulties lay.
This is so well worded! Thank you! I was looking for someone who'd left a comment on this topic because I am busy at the time I'm watching this. I am also autistic and felt it was important to see this written out somewhere in the comments.
Actually Joker was a cinematic masterpiece and got my divorced parents to remarry and gave me 8 billion dollars so I can retire at the age of 16 😤😤😤😤
Wait a damn minute
This actually explains a lot of things. Whenever I talk with my mother about rapists she says I should just dismiss it because they are mentally ill. I think that it is a culture at play that says that mentally ill people are villians and when someone did a crime but isn't mentally ill they either had a reason or there's more to it. But I think being mentally ill wont help much in the court anyways. Generally, people that are different are pushed or made out to be villians because theyre different and perhaps, but not dependant on that, will then be hurt. Take Toga Himiko, she turned out bad because of how she was hurt, she still is an exception and Im glad they showed that she had a reason behind her behaviour, but I think it's the same thing at play again.
Only 20 mins in so I don’t know if you cover this so sorry if you do later:) But I think that the way Joe hates Love, specifically the way he hates her impulsiveness , is 100% a result of misogyny. Womens “hysteria” has been critiqued all throughout history, and has been a major misogynistic idea that oppressed women (like the witch trials, etc). The way that Joe thinks he is better than Love is definitely a representation of the way that he views her as hysterical. He has this idea of a crazy women because of his misogyny, so he views her murders are worse than his because his are calculated, while hers are because she is “crazy”. Can’t wait to keep watching!
good pick up! I definitely agree
Was she not crazy?
@@diamondicn2679 the problem isn’t that she’s not crazy, it’s that they’re both crazy. The difference is that he believes that he isn’t crazy because he’s a calm calculated man while she’s an emotional woman. He uses misogyny as a defense mechanism to protect his ego from the truth that he’s just as crazy as she is.
It reminds me of a guy who yells all the time but calls his wife emotional for crying. Anger is an emotion too, Zach.
@@allyli1718 true. It also bothered me when fans said that Love was always messy and impulsive while Joe was the smart one who thought things through. Wasn’t Joe stabbing Ryan where a bunch of people could’ve seen him messy and dumb? And wasn’t Love paralyzing Joe with the wolfsbane on the knife smart and calculated?
@@allyli1718 I understand the point about women hysteria, and perhaps traditional gender roles has an indirect effect on the way Joe views Love. However, let's frame it a different way: if Joe were to like men instead of women, and if Love were to be a man instead of a woman, then would he still think the same? Would he still see Love as being hysterical and irrational, if Love were a man? I'm not saying I'm anything like Joe, but I do like seeing myself as more calm and calculated than others, and seeing others as rash or shallow. Not always because it's true, but because doing so makes me feel better about myself. It has to do with me wanting to protect my own ego, like you mention, but this doesn't necessarily have to do with anyone's gender.
Joe is highly judgmental among his many traits. In the books he does not hold bag being smug and feeling superior to almost everyone he meets except his love obsessions. It’s part of his paternalistic, “I know best” inner dialogue that helps him rationalize stalking people to “protect” them.
Another thing that contributes to the audiences perception of the characters ‘goodness’, is the fact that we’re provided with flashbacks to Joe’s traumatic past. Unlike the other imperfect characters, where we just hear about it through them or not at all, leaving the audience with an abstraction, rather than concrete experience of their trauma as with joe.
Much easier to relate, empathize, root for, etc when we experience the narrative of their cause-and-effect story
Also the adding of kiddy characters for Joe to protect. In the novel Joe is waaaay too busy touching himself outside Beck's window to feed or support a child. But I imagine the scriptwriters were trying to make him at least slightly likeable so people would watch the whole season? I guess it worked too well.
i think more of it has to do with joe being attractive tbh. if joe was ugly or creepy looking nobody would be on his side, regardless of his trauma.
i highly doubt its for us to empathize with him...its more of an explanation of why joe turned out to be this way and how it caused him to be in this way
@@natasha5553 the intentionality of the show’s creative expression and its impact on the audience’s perception, isn’t what my original comment was predicated on. But, I totally agree with you, the function of their chosen narrative formatting was probably to simply flesh out the main character, to create depth for the audience, as Joe is the medium of the show’s story.
My original point is premised in a neurocognitive perspective; that it’s just literally easier for an audience to relate to a fleshed out character, compared to one that is not.
The intersectionality of the cast and intentionality behind the artistic decisions made, absolutely are relevant as well (especially hermeneutically).
If you’re interested, ‘interoception’ is an underlying area of research I was coming from with the original comment. The embodied sensory processes involved in empathy, emotional valence, and how we relate to things external to us (this area of research really makes you think about how social media designs are doing us no favours too lol)!
Every time we get a flashback immediately what pops up in my head is “cool motive, still murder!”
As a white cis male, I have noticed the differentiation and privilege given to me. I have also experienced people telling me not to identify with my Lebanese, Italian, and Syrian ancestry. I am a teenager and go to a private school and not only is the student population very obviously lacking in diversity but also the education unfairly teaches about the hardships that classic White men have gone through. One of the biggest problems with the continuing of this education (this form of education as a whole is problematic) that is fed to young privileged children is that they will never accept the reality of the truth. I love watching your videos in hopes to further my understanding of concepts and issues in order to hopefully further educate those in my circles.
Since when did Lebanese and Syrian become white ? You’re a person of color.
@@Yaheleven if theyre white, theyre white. thats just his ancestry.
@@Yaheleven he probably looks white despite diverse ancestry.
You might turn out alright kid.
@@Yaheleven if this guy lives in America then he is classified as white, for some reason America sees middle easterners as white people? It's weird.
You also make a great point about violence or abuse being perceived as an inevitability in people who have mental illnesses. It's just false, and adds to the stigma of cluster B disorders. Mental illness *on its own* is not a predictor of violence or abuse. It's a distorted value system that does. It's a belief that they are entitled to that behavior that does. It is a social and cultural epidemic more than it is a personal mental health issue. I highly recommend reading Why Does He Do That? By Lundy Bancroft. Mental illness can certainly make the behaviors of someone who is already abusive more complex, but the majority of abusers are not mentally ill or neurodivergent, and the VAAAST majority of people with mental illnesses are not abusive or violent.
Bancroft is a treasure
My karma sucks then. I'm one of the very few people who was born with a mentally ill, abusive and violent parent. Great!
@@lapatti I am so sorry about that. Your story is valid, of course. I hope you are safer now.
There are so many people out there who still exercise violent or abusive tendencies, *if* there's a higher rate among people with mental illness, it's definitely correlational, not causational. Violence is when people choose to act a certain way, and it can't be boiled down to genetics, there's so much more going on in a human's brain than just "I'm suffering from chemical imbalances, so I'm going to hurt someone"
Cluster-B is absolutely positively correlated with abuse. It doesn't guarantee it, but it's one of the first filters I would go to if I had to place a bet, ESPECIALLY with women. (I'm a cluster-B female).
Thank you for pushing back against that portrayal of misophonia. Hearing that quote made me feel really really sick as someone who suffers from miso. The disorder is already underrepresented and not taken seriously- to see the one time its considered a real illness in media being used as the motivation for murder... its not good.
For the record, misophonia is an extremely difficult disorder to live with because triggers are literally everywhere at all times, and you cant ask or expect most people to avoid triggering you because triggers tend to be simple harmless things that they cant (and shouldn't have to) stop doing. Its a disorder that is extremely isolating and exhausting. Its most common in people with autism or adhd, as well as the elderly and adolescent girls. Idk where im going with this, just.. its tougher than people think.
Also if i killed someone for triggering my miso i wouldnt drill into their brain wtf? That doesnt even make sense. Id trap them in a giant piece of bubblegum or something because the gum was what triggered me. Smh. Clearly they didnt do research....
I find it interesting how people will judge you for liking Love over Joe. They point out all these toxic traits of Love as if Joe isn’t just as bad and probably has done what they’re saying Love did. So many people fell into his playing the victim and completely miss how Love is his mirror
I love Love just because I love what her character stands for symbolism wise. The dirty and the ugly parts are what make her so likable to me. While I don't think her actions are great, I do love the imperfection of her. The darkness of the love she feels is almost beautiful. I wonder what that says about me though, lol.
Still think it would have been better to see the show through Love's eyes by killing Joe and letting her live. First because it's been three seasons of Joe repeating the same scheme but because I really thought that Love was unique in a way compared to Joe even if they are mirror images. Like someone point out, Love kills to keep something she has, not to have something she wants and the way she was desperate, trying to build a relationship, trying to be like him, trying to make him proud of her but never being close enough was somehow touching for me? She wanted to be seen by him just like she was seeing him and it made her ugly but in almost a poetic way, never being close enough to perfection for him like he was for her. I don't know what it says about me, but I love Love and still think that it was a shame to see her death.
@@r.d826 I agree completely. I was so disappointed with the twist of him having the antidote and killing her :/
@@chickeen_owo It was really sad for me to see this twist... Love was so smooth the way she poisoned him. It was pure self defense : if he takes the knife, that mean he wanted to kill her, if he never touched the knife, they would live happily ever after. Her plans were well thought and out of nowhere ( I know not really "nowhere" ) he had the solution against her. Personally, I am sure it is partly the fans fault since everyone seemed to hate Love, thinking she was messy, delusional and so on like if Joe was a sane man. Plus, women are often seen as weak and vulnerable, I think it would be so funny to see Love playing the weak card while learning to kill and control herself and see how she deserves better than a man like Joe who can't see how they are identical. Because they truly were
As an actress, Love carried the show. She stole it from Joe because her acting is just better to me personally. Now that she's gone I don't think it'll feel the same...Same thing with season 1. The actress who played Beck was so good.
Also, can we talk about how this show was able to be renewed for three more seasons after the first. Don’t get me wrong, I liked the show since it appeared on Lifetime, but Netflix is absolutely selective with the shows they deem worthy of renewing, and those they cancel after the 1st season…
frrrr
I think it worked better on Netflix bc lifetime has a lot smaller viewer base.
Well yea they are selective based on how much money it makes, big shocker
As someone with BPD, I don't think Joe has it. He doesn't have the main symptoms, such as an unstable sense of self. All of the "BPD" things about him are his unstable behaviour toward his love interests, which could be explained as him just being gross.
Forty is probably the closest to a BPD person in the show, I think. He does a few bad things to people, like drugging Joe, but also he has the extremely soft boundaries, unstable sense of self, craves self destructive behaviors when he feels rejected or discouraged, etc. He also tends to attach himself to people and want to use them to help ground and stablize himself with those attachments to Love, but then starts to include Joe and Ellie. I have BPD and that's my opinion anyway.
@@verdancyhime Forty definitely could be coded as someone with BPD.
@@verdancyhime that's so true
I think joe was a sociopath
@@zaynahsultan514 probably
I feel like growing up, we're all taught to feel bad for or pity disabled people- not for the world that isn't built to accommodate them, but for the bodies they were born with.
But it just occurred to me that I wouldn't expect a Black person to hate being Black or assume they want to be white just because white supremacy and racism exist, instead i direct my anger towards the injustice they suffer.
In that same way, we shouldn't expect disabled people to hate their disabled bodies or assume they wish they were able-bodied, instead we should direct that energy towards demanding spaces and representation that accommodate and include them.
I don't know why I've never thought of it this way, but this video was en eye-opener. I'm definitely guilty in the past of ignorantly assuming disabled people wish they were able-bodied instead of assuming the more logical thought that they wish the world was a better place for them to live.
Fun fact: I think you just taught me a new way I should view myself. (Thank you.)
I grew up, able-bodied, taught the exact same things you were. I've spent the last six years I've had with my disability hating my own body and its perceived lack of function. But like, I'd be able to do those things if society cared to help me, wouldn't I.
I never knew that there was a Criminal Minds episode about misophonia, a disorder that I have. In my own experience, when my misophonia was at its height, I would be in a situation with a sound and it would be life or death for me. I would either have to kill myself or the person making the sound, so I would experience it anymore. More often than not, it skewed towards the killing myself thoughts; I would self-harm in those situations just to focus on the pain rather than the sound. And if I did think about killing the person, I would feel horribly guilty because they were usually my loved ones. And from talking to other people with the disorder, they experienced similar things.
So, the idea that a bunch of writers thought that a person would become a serial killer because of the hatred of sound, is comical to me. Especially because people with misophonia know what we are hearing and our reactions to it are irrational.
But that's similar to most representations of mental illness or disorders, making it seem like mentally ill people are so dangerous when we would really rather be anything but dangerous.
I didn’t know about that episode either. Neither did I know that the makers of the show drew inspiration from real life and then pondered how a specific disorder would serve as a reason for someone becoming a serial killer… I can’t unsee that logic now, though. It explains a lot. : /
I also have misophonia (although undiagnosed). I’ve never felt like I wanted to hurt anyone (except myself) physically, but I do get the urges to be hurtful with words. I do combat this urge, though, and leave the situations whenever possible or use headphones. I’ve read that usually people who experience misophonia are triggered by sounds created by people who are dear to them. I can’t remember the source (and it might have been in Finnish) but I remember being relieved - in a way - because that is true to me.
I was already thinking that I was simply a shitty human being for getting anxious and irritated whenever my roommate/close friend ate anything or breathed while having a flu etc. Actually my roommate was the one who happened to stumble upon the term ’misophonia’ first. She was extremely happy and relieved that there was a name and explanation for how I acted in certain situations. ”: )
Misophonia is also one of the major causes for my depression. It’s really stressful to live with someone whom you respect and care, but whose everyday sounds cause you extreme discomfort. Besides, the list is slowly growing. Initially I just couldn’t stand her eating chips with me when we watched tv but now I can’t stand the noise of her steps if we go for a walk together. Luckily we share several hobbies and interests, but misophonia makes daily life nevertheless quite tiring. Lately I’ve considered living alone although otherwise our living situation works fine. : (
you've touched on some really great points here! i'm also continuously frustrated by how the media portrays those of us struggling with mental disorders and illnesses that are far likelier to make us vulnerable to abuse and violence, rather than turning us into the aggressors.
something i will say though is that nurture is a powerful thing, and more often than not men who suffer from mental illness and become violent do so because of the way they were conditioned by their environment. take serial rapists and/or murderers for example - how many of these men grew up in dysfunctional homes with perverse ideas about sexuality, or perhaps were even victims of sexual abuse themselves? i know it's a touchy subject and i understand why, being a mentally ill SA victim myself, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of them did encounter their own traumas and unfortunately due to how boys are socialized they grow up externalizing that trauma in ways that put (mostly) girls and women at risk.
i don't know how many times i've read stories about serial killers who as young boys watched their sisters or mothers being raped, understandably warping their impressionable minds, to then go on inflicting the same violence when they become young adults. but what of their sisters or mothers, the women whose very self was brutalized in one of the worst ways possible? what happens to them? arguably you could say they have more of a "reason" to grow up and start their life as a serial killer, and yet these stories are few and far between. girls and women are largely socialized differently than men are; they're raised to dehumanize themselves whereas men are brought up dehumanizing others for their own gain. women are more likely to internalize their own suffering and punish themselves for it, whereas men are more likely to externalize it and punish others (again, most often women rather than other men... wonder why that is!!! /s)
i think this is part of why we get this "mentally ill person evil" trope over and over again, because on some level we recognize the ways traumatized and mentally ill boys can and do grow into selfish, angry, and violent men due to the patriarchal machine we're all forced into like a meat grinder. but sadly many of us aren't ready and willing to accept the role that the patriarchy plays in men's upbringing, so instead we default to the black and white: either it's "yeah mental illness IS evil" or "mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of violence rather than perpetrators". there's never any nuance, but are we surprised at this point?
I have misophonia too. It can be awful to live with. It’s isolating and disorienting. I experience really bad fight or flight. I often just want to escape. I do have violent thoughts, but only because I want to get away from the stimuli. I usually want to yell or take away what is causing the noise (ex. When eating). It’s so difficult too because people don’t understand the extent of it.
Yeah same! It's... wild to see a reflection of yourself that is so deeply upsetting
OMG SAME. Even tho ive never went to a doctor, i suspect I have misophonia. I just CANT stand some sounds and normally when its too intense for me, i have thoughts about hurting either me, to distract myself from the noise, or the person that is making the noise, and sometimes i wish them would just die. After that i feel like shit because its not their fault, obviously.
"i love men; i love jung hoseok" i cannot deny the fact i have said this *s a m e* sentence before (joking about your iconic one-liners aside thank you for putting so much time and energy into this video!!!! your channel is my favorite i am constantly sending your videos to my friends and being like !! look, listen, learn, (live laugh love??) anyways
Someone said Jung Hoseok 👀👀
I haven't seen a single second of this show but I've watched three video essays on it now and have decided it's one of my favorite shows
ok but when you started talking about ableism and sanism i honestly started getting so excited. like i dont really hear people go into much depth about these things especially to the point of including multiple different experiences and opinions from disabled, neurodivergent, and/or mentally ill people. i just wanna say thank you because it made me happy.
I like Penn and find him attractive but it scares me how people find JOE attractive and desirable.
Like, honey, no…
The good thing is Penn roasts the people who do that
I caught myself being attracted to the character and I was like oh no no no ....I need help
Huh?
Physically attraction has nothing to do with character.
I want to thank you for talking about how you've felt invalidated in your feelings by others because of a clinical diagnosis. I am neurodivergent and I often feel I'm nit allowed to express any frustration, anger, sadness, angst, excitement, or literally anything that isn't flat affect because it's always autisms fault I'm overreacting or some dumb shit.
People will always want to believe that serial killers are somehow mentally ill. The alternative is believing that healthy minds can do the most evil acts imaginable. But that's why I'm not fond of calling anything or anyone a personality disorder. What about toxic masculinity? It's certainly described using the same language as a personality disorder. Should that be a mental health defense in court? There's a core contradiction to our mental health system that needs a resolution. On the one hand,we want to avoid stigmatizing mental health disorders. On the other hand,"disorder" is a negative label. It's not actually good to be sick. I understand that conditions which hamper function need treatment. But listing "flawed personalities" is a winding and dangerous process.
^this
The issue is that in terms like 'sociopath' and 'psychopath' or 'narcisst' we ascribe an illness where there actually is just a for the most part set personality structure. The defining symptoms of these 'disorders' are antisocial behaviors, so when we see those behaviors in people we automatically assume mental illness. We basically invented a medical category so we won't have to deal with the social issues actually causing antisocial behaviors and causing children to develop personality structures, respectively.
@@layla8830 Sure,but we could also just admit that everyone has flaws. I've loved a woman who was vain as could be. And that's the issue. This is a likeability barometer. Charismatic sociopaths aren't getting labeled. They're getting celebrated.
@@LezCharming I'd say the fact that charismatic sociopaths are celebrated is the issue with our social system overall. And just bc these people are generally liked doesn't mean they can't wreak havoc in people's life's. That's not to say that all of them do, but the thing stopping them are nothing more than enforced social or legal norms, not actual moral convictions. It's not a pleasant state of being for many of them either. They may have a desire for genuine connection, but are unable to ever achieve that due to their lack of empathy, they may have little to no emotional life resulting in a feeling of emptiness, they may have compulsive desires, they'll try to fulfill even at their own demise, like the need to be admired by others, wich is actually rooted in low self esteem. I believe these personality structures can actually be a benefit for society, there are professions and social roles in wich they play out positively, but we have to structure society accordingly. Everyone has flaws, sure. I'm a very vain and proud person myself, wich can and sometimes does hurt the people around me. But that's a flaw that exists in moderation, only so far as it's rigidly controlling my own behaviors, but not those of others. And it's fundamentally different from actively hurting those around me for my own benefit and having no remorse doing so.
@@layla8830 If people enjoy getting wrecked,it's hard to stop that process,even if I should. There's women I'd let stuff me into the truck of their car. What system is gonna fix that?
Have some issues with the term “able minded” has some nasty subtext. The term is neurotypical for anyone who doesn’t have a neurological ‘difference’, including mental illness, things like autism and ADHD, even traumatic brain injuries. Otherwise, love this video a lot I think it’s really cool and put a lot of info together cohesively.
was curious what nasty subtext there is with able minded? context: I'm disabled and am genuinely curious-- never heard someone say that before. I always just thought it was the flipside to "able bodied".
Holy shit that Criminal Minds episode about misophonia is so infuriating, I have it myself and it makes me want to die rather than wanting to hurt others or DRILL INTO PEOPLE’S SKULLS?? That is so laughably unbelievable and damn is it stigmatizing no matter what the hell they want to claim.
ikr i have sensory issues. so if people are being annoying and making noises i don't think "imma murder these people" i am too upset over the pain i am experiencing... from the noises. ashdjfjsjdjf. the worst thing i have thought is "can these people shut the fuck up" but that's not violent, that is frustration.
I myself was quite surprised at how conflicted I felt while watching the series....I was total creeped out by Joe's psychopathic acts of stalking, murdering, impersonating and what not...and then there were these calm moments where he was being a "sweet" bf and his crazy deeds went to some corner of my mind while I just thought wow cute. XD
Also in season 3 I love how Love is actually a mirror of Joe, just without his "oh so holy" filter. She is him but he time and again tries to distinguish himself as more reserved and thoughtful and better than her...calling her the moster when she is just the rawer, perhaps truer version of him and she is surprisingly honest and upfront about it unlike him.
True
Uhhhhh I've never heard of this show, I don't use social media (cept UA-cam sigh), but in the early days of the internet, I had this happen to me. A guy found some picture of me online, somehow tracked down a lot of information about my life, then found some way to start chatting me up, then gradually revealed we liked all of the same stuff, oh my gosh what a good match.
Then I don't know why, after a few months he confessed to me. He told me everything, all of the research, all of his plans for our future, how he'd been stalking me for months before he ever reached out, his total obsession with me, he'd made art of me, bought me presents he didn't send, even though he knew where I lived....
He was also extremely attractive. He could have gone out and legitimately found dozens of women who would want him. But instead he needed to do this.
He was also aware of how sick it was, how it was not ok. I think he thought we were falling in love and he needed to come clean? To me he was a random dude I talked to sometimes, until he confessed. He never threatened me, and I never heard from him again when I told him we could not speak any longer.
It was the first time I ever had a stalker. It was the least serious and it resulted in no attacks of any kind, not physical or social harm. But it shocked me to the core. Everyone thought it was a joke, but it was not funny. I also got a lot of responses that it shouldn't matter if it was creepy because he was hot.
so yeah that was on the cusp of social media, and maybe it's clear why I don't use it. this video is real hard to watch
Interesting. I would actually love to know more about this lol
that’s so sinister wow
I'm really sorry that happened to you, that sounds terrifying. I'm glad nothing harmful came of it, but the fact that he did all that before he started talking to you is just...icky.
That's creepy, I'm glad you stopped talking with him and he didn't bother you after it.
Going into 58:50 (from the perspective of one formally diagnosed autistic):
It's true that Asperger's is now part of the ASD spectrum. The DSM IV had 3 separate diagnoses for autism back when it has out: ASD, Asperger's, and PDD-NOS (pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified). They were all in the same umbrella of diagnoses but there were some differences that separated them.
I believe I got PDD-NOS when I was diagnosed since I had speech issues that made me too "severe" to have Asperger's. (Note that "severe" is in quotes since I am not a fan of the functioning labels as a perma-diagnosis)
When the DSM V came out, those three categories were all lumped into ASD. That is one reason why Asperger's is seen as equivalent to ASD now.
Side note: Others mentioned this already, but Hans Asperger is a nazi scientist, so some (myself included) don't really like to use Asperger's anymore. Everyone is different with what terms they prefer, but I personally like to use autistic for myself
Side note pt 2: The DSM is not perfect especially if you are getting a diagnosis as an adult. I'm just using it as a frame of reference for how ASD is categorized for the general public
I am diagnosed with bpd and the first thing my mum said when she found out was that she always knew I would be a murderer. I'm not fucking joking.
What the hell
The only person I'm a danger to is myself lol 🤠 thanks for the fear of abandonment mum 😎
that is awful. having bpd doesn't make you a murderer or a bad person. you can be a good person and have bpd, like someone without bpd can be a good person.
Wtaf...
Jezz, I'm sorry that happened. What mother would look at her own kid and think "Hmm, yes, a murderer"
I'm not even 20 minutes in, and I'm already gonna leave a comment just to say that I love this video so much lol. Thank you for putting the research and work into this. 👏👏👏👏❤️❤️
I’m clinically diagnosed autistic, and I was told during my assessment that if it had been 20 years earlier, I would’ve been called Asperger’s. I’ve been told over and over that I’m lucky for this. There is no difference between Asperger’s and ASD, both can have the exact same traits, as every autistic person does in different quantities so to speak. I’m more upset by MGG’s “mild autism” comment. There is no mild. It is not a spectrum from “mild to severe”, it is a variety of traits that each person will experience in different ways, in unique combinations for every single one of us. People call me a “mild case” because I’m articulate and I can convincingly fake my way through most social situations but I have incredibly severe sensory issues. Really wish people with no expertise would stop depicting us in media. We’re always doctors or caricatures of disability, no in between.
This made me realize that I might be on the spectrum (this isn't the only thing that made me think about it). I should probably try to get tested because I have major sensory issues as well, and to be honest I'm not taken very seriously. Everything is bright, loud, I don't like being touched, etc. I don't want to diagnose myself because I'm not a psychologist though. But I actually have asked a psychiatrist before about it, just once, and was completely dismissed, so I think it deterred me from asking again. I'm incredibly socially awkward but, like you said, I can "fake my way through it". I think I should talk to someone, so thank you for this comment it was very informative.
Speaking of "mild autism" (what bs), I have watched Meteor Garden and one of the main characters is supposed to have had "mild autism" during his childhood, but then because of another persons presence, it seemingly disappeared. when that person left, his "autism" was told to have reappeared. what the fuck. if people want to be more inclusive towards autistic people, maybe they should have done actual research. watching this, I've been so irritated (for obvious reasons). it just ruins my hopes that someday people will accept neurodivergent humans just as much as neurotypicals
I was diagnosed when I was around 5 and am now 26. I was diagnosed with aspergers. I was also called high functioning since I was very articulate and "you would never kn9w."
I had a similar experience when my mom watched this movie with an OCD character and told me she was glad I had my OCD “under control.” But I’m like??? It only seems under control because it doesn’t effect you and you don’t see it. I’m very good at masking and hiding my ticks or compulsions and a big part of my OCD is intrusive thoughts, which only I can see. People need to stop assuming people have “mild” cases of things when they don’t see what actually goes on.
@@hot.bowl.of.stew94 honestly same reason my mom didn't think I have ADHD, I'm just "not hyperactive enough".
Also diagnosed bipolar after an episode. Loneliest thing I've even through. It was so healing to hear you understand it so profoundly, as much I'm so sorry you've been through it. I'm SO glad you're still with us too.
Excellent job! You is such an interesting show, and ever since I’ve started watching the show I’ve found the portrayal of psychopathic Joe to be really unique, especially with how Penn Badgley is so in character with the specific traits of a possessive misogynist.
Now that I finished the video...I want to say that I appreciate you reaching out to others in the disability community to share their perspectives.
I could relate to many of them, but the anon who commented that all aspects of her identity have been villainized in the media especially resonated with me. I know I've felt that for sure with my neurodivergence, my mental illnesses, my nonbinary status, and my romantic + sexual orientations. If they're not infantilized, they're ignored or treated as an 'other'
That "oh brother, this guy stinks" from SpongeBob will always be funny. I cackle every time it's in someone's video 😂😂😂😂😂
omg same i lost it
I clicked on this video to watch a commentary about one of my favourite show, and now that I have watched it all, I can say that I ended up learning so much, especially about the mental illnesses, thanks to the statements . I always really liked crime shows, like You or even documentaries, and now that I heard how mental illness is portrayed in these kind of shows, I really feel like I will watch them in a totally different way .
As a cis straight white girl non-disabled, I learned a lot today, and the video itself was incredible, your way of talking, the words you chose were really cool , and as a french non english speaker, I learned a lot too, so thank you
I'm so grateful to hear you talk about the stigma against BPD and other personality disorders among providers. Its an unfortunate conversation I have to have with any clients I have who have been diagnosed with BPD (whether I agree its an accurate diagnosis or not). People with personality disorder diagnoses deserve as much respect and kindness as any other client, and its upsetting to know that many of them receive subpar care and don't have their experiences believed because of their diagnosis.
I've been waiting so long to watch this and now I can bc I finished the show.
Just want to give my opinion on the autism/aspergers quote as an autistic person: Aspergers and autism are the same thing! It's not a 'different type' of autism or anything, its simply a difference in how autism presents in an individual, which is almost completely pointless to define as autism is individual to each person. You might see some categorise it as high (being aspergers) and low (being typical depictions of autism) functioning labels now, but they are also redundant and ableist as they determine 'functioning' by neurotypical standards, so completely useless as well. The autistic spectrum is not a sliding scale as a lot of people assume, you cannot be 'more' or 'less' autistic (you either are or you aren't) and the division between autistic people has caused a lot of issues for people on both sides. I wish there was a better way to describe the real autistic spectrum but all i can think of is that its actually more of a collection of varying traits, and every autistic person probably has at least a little bit of all of them, but certain traits are more prevalent in each individual and its the fact that a certain number of traits are present that make it diagnosable. e.g. both my autistic brother and i experience sensory sensitivity and communication difficulties as part of our autism, but the way we experience them is very very different, he can handle a lot of auditory sensory input, but cannot stand any other textures that are not his four particular foods, I cannot cope with more than one noise and really struggle going into public because of it, and I also really struggle with different textures in food, however I can cope with other sensory input like flashing lights with no problem. I also communicate very differently to my brother, who understands roughly 5 out of a 100 words you say to him (so he follows along conversations but doesn't fully engage), and yet while I am deemed 'articulate and clear' the way I speak means I am constantly misinterpreted by others, and my real feelings, thoughts, opinions, jokes, and intentions are 'lost in translation' as it were. Both are different presentations of the same traits. The way our autism presents is incredibly different, nothing shows that more clearly than the fact he was diagnosed at 2yrs, and I was diagnosed at 14yrs (this also has to do with gender but thats a whole other thing), however we will always have more in common with each other than we will with a neurotypical person. Which is what 'aspergers syndrome' tried to sell you: 'you're basically neurotypical, like, not quite, but basically.' I would've been diagnosed with aspergers had I been born 5 years earlier, but I am actually just autistic, because dividing autism up by how you present would mean making up a new 'sub category' or 'type' of autism every time.
Really, aspergers was always kind of seen like the 'good' autism, because the connotations attached were that you were super smart, like above average, and you didnt have any symptoms of 'real autism'! you were autistic without being autistic! But you were also cold and robotic, you didnt feel pain or any emotion. And all that means is that you are denied help because you dont fit the autism stereotype. This is still really prevalent now, and I have to fight to be seen as actually autistic all the time, even by doctors (especially mental health professionals) because the stigma is still there. I can respect people wanting to keep the label if thats what they were diagnosed with, but the separation that was caused by doctors is useless and only harmful to the autistic community.
I also think it's really worth mentioning that aspergers was named after a nazi doctor who helped the nazi's kill disabled children, and from what I can tell, he originally labelled the children(!!) who would go on to be diagnosed with aspergers by 1980's standards as 'autistic psychopaths' (of course context matters, there were not exactly the same words we would use back in 1938, but the implication was that they were emotionless, psychopathic. So both a mischaracterisation of autism and psychopathy. My point is we should not be using a 1930s nazi doctor's framework to explain, categorise or diagnose something as complex as autism.
Here is an article that explains him and his life, and specifically his role in the nazi regime that i recommend, it explains it better than I could: molecularautism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13229-018-0208-6
Sorry for the incredibly long comment! I really enjoy your videos, you always explain yourself in a clear and focused way, while staying entertaining and humorous. You're one of my favourite creators, and thank you for all the hard work you put into your videos! Hope you have a wonderful holidays
(sorry for the long answer, I'm incapable of keeping anything short ever LOL may or may not absolutely have something to do with my disabilities/diagnosis/whatever)
YES!!! So well written 👏 Important to include history of disability (ASD) science/politics, like the nazis when explaining why specifically Asperger's needs to go. Eugenics are still pervasive around autism in the 2020's... Yes, we need methods of evaluating autistic peoples individual support needs & strengths, BUT that does not at all justify the continued use of the same high- versus low-functioning & the "sliding-scale spectrum" idea, or Asperger diagnosis. Contrary to popular belief, THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO SUPPORT ASD. Incredibly frustrating to hear from autistic people themselves tbh. Like baby you don't (or at least we shouldn't) have to "settle" for or talk nicely about faulty systems to receive diagnosis & support 😩💔
Your words, "you were autistic without being autistic!" is such a great way of explaining Asperger's versus ASD. Something that enable autistic people's own internalised ableism to prefer to be stapled A versus ASD. The highly negative ableist view & treatment of ASD can make you comfortable in A diagnosis instead. Seen as "high-functioning" & less "othered" resulting in being more social security in human to human relationships & such. No wonder we see some autistic people diagnosed with Asperger's refusing to whatsoever identify with autism as a diagnosis, even though A is literally ASD so it doesn't make sense in one way but yeah I understand & respect you too.
(What is written above is not including the DISADVANTAGE specific to this: people stapling you as high- versus low-functioning & it leading to lack of support you need, which of course is not an advantage at all)
& YEP, the gender perspectives in diagnosis is a huge issue leading to for ex the ridiculously high statistics of late or no diagnosis of non-white/cismale people. Looking at gender & intersectional issues in diagnosis processes in general, how a lot of "specialists" knowledge & ideas decades old/based on their "own", ableist, white supremacy bullshit... it's not surprising. ASD diagnosis criterias were literally based on old ass "studies" on specifically western, white, middle school boys...
The system was never created to assist us, only to divide & "other" us. How our diagnosis has been/is "used" in media is definitely not helping. To actually show autism correctly & with much more diversity (not just the typical white young cismale with pretty much the same personality/story/environment) in MEDIA would help change this. It's NOT hard to find autistic actors, or hard for autistic people to work in this field/environment (*cough* fuck SIA *cough*), or have autistic people guide you instead of allistic creators just doing whatever they want entirely based on whatever they've seen in media before, stereotypes & their own ideas.
(PS. I'm white, European, 30-ish years old, AFAB nonbinary with a list of mental & invisible physical disabilities too long to mention LOL but including ASD, ADHD, ME/CFS, OCD, OCPD, various mental illnesses ETC ).
You said everything I thought when I came to that part of the video! Thank you!
I am not diagnosed and honestly am currently not quite sure if I ever will be, whether that is because I'm not actually on the spectrum like I think or because the healthcare system is flawed here in Sweden too I'm not certain. But I have done A LOT of research and I am very passionate about the topic.
So thank you for spending so much time on this full fledged comment! I wouldn't have felt right speaking for the autistic community when I myself am so unsure of my place in it, plus, she wanted people who had specifically been diagnosed so that's obviously also a thing. Heh.
Anyways, have a good day!
I got my Aspergers diagnose at about six years age. I prefer Aspergers as a term - ever since that young age, to me Aspergers has held the meaning of "Oh, there's nothing that's wrong with me, I just have Aspergers" as well as the immense relief that brought. Autistic feels too undefined, like asking someone what they want to eat and getting the answer "food", even if correct. Aspergers in itself is already very different from individual to individual.
I do agree with the previous point of the two diagnoses existing to divide people and that no one benefits from the divisions created, as well as it bearing an ableist and otherwise sadly stained history, yet I also feel it's not beneficial to lump everyone together. Since it goes from nonverbal to "but you don't look autistic", from masking a lot to not giving a shit, what can be supporting or necessary to someone can be belittling to others (catdammit, don't get me started on the belittling), and what makes someone feel (for lack of a less ableist term) not belittled would leave others out in the cold without what *they* need.
I am so very tired of having to explain I'm just fine when it comes to the aspergers which I see as something good, simply me, but that I need blah blah help when it comes to the burnout, because that acts as an actual disability in my life.
I'd not be surprised if this is another social issue future humans would look at and say "how uninformed they were, what silly notions they had". I'd gladly hear more reasons as to why Aspergers shouldn't be used. Gotta have something to mull over, yanno ^^
Also, fuck the nazis.
Edit: A little bit of formating (I swear I thought I spaced stuff correctly) and some clarification in the third paragraph.
The thing is though, that people were diagnosed Asperger's by said Nazi if they failed to be sufficiently "volkish", a.k.a. pro- social in a Nazi propagandistic, able to have emotional contagion at Nazi pep rallies, etc type of thing. It's actually a compliment. We're intrinsically unfit to be Nazis.
@@SpecialBlanket I do like the sound of being intrinsically unfit to be a nazi :P
I would also like to add, the demonization of trauma. I am someone with a whole host of trauma, especially childhood trauma, and seeing how people look at people with trauma honestly traumatised me more. It was like you had this plague, you were seen as dirty, shat upon, a responsibility, a burden, used, undesirable, difficult, etc. Sure, my trauma complicates basic situations, and makes me hesitant to form relationships or 'yield' myself to someone else, but I still want to have relationships. I want to have friends, good friends that know me, that know how best to relate with me. I don't want to hide my trauma and negative experiences because, more often than not, my trauma responses are misinterpreted for immature, irrational, and difficult, surprising behaviours, when if they knew about my trauma., they would understand why I acted or reacted in a particular way. also prior knowledge of these pre-existing conditions, would make for a better, more meaningful relationship, as they know what to avoid, what will rouse a negative reaction in me.
the worst part is that I don't usually lash out, I just internalise these actions towards me and blame and shame myself for feeling this way about it, when the person might have intended no harm in it. Needless to say I have avoided romantic relationships like the plague, being 20, attracted to all genders and not been in a single relationship, and only recently, acquired close friends, (that our friendship started as trauma-bonding) which I've learned now is kinda dangerous, but we all work towards self-improvement, and share our therapy breakthroughs over a glass of wine.
I am the happiest I have ever been, but getting here was no easy feat.
also, really sorry for the essay, but I have more,,
As a first gen immigrant of Nigerian parents, (that in itself is enough to send my therapist's children to private school) as a black, non-british person living in the UK, it's even harder, because, not only am I othered for being black, queer and afab, there's even less grace for me as a mentally ill, neurodivergent person, that for the longest time, I had to self diagnose, in order to just live and navigate life. When I eventually got my first diagnosis of depression, and was put on antidepressants, I didn't tell my parents, when I did, they were upset. To me, it seemed their main worry was their child being diagnosed as a 'mad' person, the clinical label didn't sit right with them. So, to my people, they just didn't acknowledge it because that would further mar the image if black people or immigrants, in an already xenophobic, racist environment. And to white people, they couldn't fathom, a non-white person, having the same ailments as them(it was like I was never a valid part of their community, also no suprise, this is how I felt in predominantly white queer spaces).
This ostracization left me feeling worse about myself, and with no support. Honestly, downloading tiktok and subsequently finding black queer spaces, black neurodivergent spaces in the app literally saved me from the darkest years of my life. I had a space, a pocket to escape to when the world felt a bit much, and was able to create these spaces and find spaces like that in my immediate environment.
This video was a masterpiece, I especially loved the segment where you highlighted the voices of neurodivergent and disabled people on ableism and sanism in media and the world around us. You deserve your flowers, hopefully you get like an award or something for these bangers because, your videos has taught me more than being in school my whole life has. And I get to access this for free!! You are a gem. Hopefully when I'm a bit more financially stable I can become a patreon and give back, however little I can
Finally started watching the series and I just want to say, I know the writers pride themselves on being able to incorporate the word " you" into almost every spoken line.
I love how it shows that Joe doesn’t care about who the women he’s obsessed with actually are. His next stalking victim could be any woman who gives him attention and looks like she “needs saving”
Really? That's neat
@@slylover123 yes, I was very impressed when I started watching it, to see the word "you" being used in also every spoken dialogue Joe has
Well that’s how the book is written so it makes sense
@@quirkyblackenby that's how it's written? I may need to add it to my reading list
As someone who loved English, would have been an English major if I could afford it, and loves your videos, please don't worry about the long videos! The people who are tired of it can mind their business
Thank you for the intersectionality in your analysis ! WOW. As a black woman with mental illness, neurodiverse, chronically ill it’s so rare to find a perspective that captures the intersectionality.
honestly haven't watched the show, but I really enjoyed the video! Recently getting an ADHD diagnosis has definitely helped me a lot while also making me become very aware of the ableism that has been pushed on me. Talking with others who have various or similar diagnoses is really what was helped me in terms of coming to terms with the fact that my life will be a bit different. Medication and therapy of course are key, but actually coming to terms with this is how my brain works and I've got to negotiate with it. So many people think that you can just "fix" mental illness, but there's so much more to mental and physical disability. Existing with it, living with it, every day. Thank you for your beautiful and informative video!
I'm autistic. Asperger's is an outdated diagnosis. Some of us have more marketable obsessions and are better at masking. That doesn't make us less autistic.
well said
It's one of my pet peeves when people try to differentiate between ASD and Asperger's. Same with ADHD and ADD. The latter for both conditions are outdated yet people swear they're still accurate and they aren't 😭
@@rahbeeuh I know what you mean. I have ADHD too.
@@lefu87williford55 I have ADHD and self-diagnosis with ASD but I've got an assessment scheduled in a few months. Your understanding means a lot.
@@rahbeeuh I'm in the same boat
This probably seems like a tiny thing, but it means a lot: thank you so, so much for putting the word psycho in quotes. Pre-emptive apologies for the manuscript length comment.
Psychosis is so deeply misunderstood and horribly mischaracterized, as is schizophrenia (and so, for that matter, is antisocial personality disorder).
As someone recently diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder
(it hasn't been confirmed by my psychiatrist, but my psychologist has been studying it and bipolar disorder for over 30 years, she's known me for 25, and she made the call/has the authority to write my service dog prescription)
who has been coping with psychosis off and on for years and needs a service dog to help her cope with it, the way we're seen, treated, and represented in media (and in everyday conversation) is deeply hurtful and harmful, and actually fuels pathology - examples are social withdrawal/isolation, paranoia, and the chronic stress that comes from living in a society wherein people with family histories of psychotic disorders don't have children, for fear that they'll end up like me. It's a painful, sometimes lonely place.
tl;dr
Thank you for the care and thought you put into your creations, and your kindness and empathy for minorities of all kinds. It is noticed and appreciated, and so are you. 💜
Personally I only watched the first season of You because I hated Joe and Beck's death was upsetting because I wanted her to escape so it's been really interesting and eye-opening to see how a lot of people have sort of the opposite reaction. I don't judge anyone for enjoying the show at all but it's definitely interesting seeing the people who love Joe vs how people react to Beck and other female characters in the show. Brilliant video as always!
I was really upset every time female lead of the season died and yet I keep coming back, idk what I expect. 😂
"but that's the thing about not really caring much for the romance genre -- you find it in media you're not really looking for it in" took the words right out of my aromantic brain
s a m e; romance/s*x averse/repulsed aroace here--the way i *h a t e* this so much
It truly was the fanbase that made me hate the show. I watched it bc the premise of a psycho stalker through the lense of the psycho stalker was interesting, so I watched it through that idea. I think people need to get used to the difference between a main character and a protagonist. Not every main character is supposed to be liked or rooted for, they're just supposed to be interesting enough to want to keep reading/watching.
thank you so much for talking about personality disorders -- it's so important, and so few people discuss them with the compassion you did. i am studying psychology and i (might? we're not sure yet!) have bpd. i am genuinely constantly scared of being a horrible, awful person who will inevitably hurt everyone i love. it's hard to look up anything related to bpd because all the advice is for people *without* bpd, who have the apparent displeasure of having to associate with A Borderline. often times, it feels like people would rather those with bpd just disappear all together.
psychology is an ever-changing field. new things about the brain are discovered all the time; i just think it's a shame how people only take just enough interest in it to assist their ableist shit. anyway, this is an amazing video! you're really one of the best youtubers
As someone with fibromyalgia. Ariel's comments on the dismissal was almost painful with how accurate it was. My favourite is when I explain my lack of mobility and the person responses by saying "but you are a pretty young thing." One of the areas I've tried articulate and struggle to do well is how being young effects people's perception of disability, especially in people whose disability is not immediately visible.
I've never loved talking about my body. I've spent years recovering from an eating disorder. But because of my disability my body and how people perceive it is always there. Because of deeply ableist views, there is incredibly damaging views about attractiveness and disability. Sexism and disability plays a huge role. So does ageism on both ends. Treating elderly disabled people as disposable and young people as faking it. We have a history of not researching dieases primarily effecting women and not listening to their symptoms. I have been called a hypocraditic by everyone and spent years of increasingly debilitating pain and doctor visits where I was dismissed as depresssed or pregnant (I wasn't even sexually active, but after telling the doctor this I went to what I thought was testing only to find out it was a pregnancy test).
I was eventually hospitalized three times in excruciating pain before fibromyalgia was investigated. Three years later, my doctors have refused to diagnose me.
"Though your symptoms align with fibromyalgia. we can't conclusively rule out all other dieases"
"May I go through those tests"
"You have no symptoms that would be explained by anything outside of fibromyalgia so I don't know why we would order additional tests."
The doctor would then turn hostile at my unreasonable requests for simple things like bloodwork. The lack of official diagnosis means that I can't access disability nor can I get employment. I was working a physically demanding job when I got sick and had to leave because I collapsed and fell down stairs when having a flare. But despite numberous applications in my field and entry level jobs I won't be hired. Because if I mention I may need accommodations or the ability to work from home because I often do not have the ability to walk. They take one look at my legs their faces fall. And the lack of official documentation means it is not discrimination. There is no legal proof I have a disability.
Of course, dismissal and disbelief happens to msny people and in worse ways. But I can't help but believe by people reactions that their perception of my attractiveness and age plays into how they trivialize the reality of my disability.
I’m so sorry to hear about all of that that you go through. I can’t even imagine how awful that’s gotta feel.. I can somewhat relate, cause I have clinical depression but I’m young and a “cheerful” person, “there’s no way I can be depressed”. I hope you get the proper help you need soon.
I’ve also been unable to get a diagnosis of fibromyalgia, despite fitting all the symptoms. My doctor explained it to me as “if I give you that diagnosis, you might have issues in the future with doctors not believing you, so if you go to the emergency room for abdominal pain or something, they might dismiss you and blame it on fibromyalgia.” Luckily I’m still getting treated, but I got diagnosed with chronic pain syndrome instead because that comes with less stigma, especially as a teen. It’s crazy to be honest, and I really hope you get some kind of treatment in the future. You aren’t alone
@@cheeseisherelive753 yeah it is really frustrating when people equate outward presentation to inward experience ❤❤
@@probablyjustamagpie5357 I am glad you are able to be treated and they caught it when you were still a teenager. I remember how scary it was to try to navigate not knowing what was happening. ❤❤
I have a chronic illness too, have been hosp'd for pain, was bedridden from 26-29. You MUST keep doctor shopping until you get a competent rheum, GP, etc. Try DOs instead of MDs (it's not woo-woo, investigate). You have no choice but to riffle through the deck or this will be the rest of your life.
That said he is not wrong that a fibro dx is the scarlet letter. However this does not stop him from filling it out on disability ppwork bc disability is about FUNCTIONAL descriptions, not etiology unless yr in the blue book. You can find someone who will help you play the game and ALSO give you a freakin ANA test. I think his motivations are disingenuous.
You do not need to disclose a disability pre-hire. Do so post-hire.
this is such a well researched video thank you dude and thank you for including first-hand viewpoints of real people (including yourself) with lived experience
!!!!love this and love your videos
Just bc you asked about it! I'm autistic - Asperger's is a holocaust relic named after a Nazi doctor and was originally used to distinguish between autistic people in concentration camps who could do the work they wanted and autistic people who they felt should be killed. Its use in diagnosis stemmed from that view of autistic people...basically distinguishing those of us who they felt could be Useful to capitalism vs not. Autistic is autistic and every autistic person has varying traits, challenges, and strengths.
yes! more people, autistic and non-autistic, need to know this.
@@orangeworm also functioning labels do not help
“And joe busts like a soda can in the freezer” 😭😭😭😭😭😭
I used to love Criminal Minds, but on a rewatch, it was disappointing and insulting.
Random grievance, but as someone with mental illness, it really annoys me how many “official” questionnaires ask if I have thoughts of “harming [my]self or others”.
Like, those are two separate questions, surely? I constantly want to harm myself, but I almost never want to harm anyone else.
This question was a factor in my being admitted to a ward, with a bunch of other people who had also answered Yes to that question. However, on the ward, there was no distinction made between those who wanted to self harm, and those who felt violent towards others. It did not lead to a relaxing or rehabilitating atmosphere.
Anyway, thanks for another wonderful video, I really loved it.
Edit: I’m diagnosed with ASD, but a psychologist once remarked that if I had been diagnosed as a child, it would have been classed as aspergers. He said (and this was his own personal view, I have no idea what other professionals think) that as he saw it, people with Aspergers or High Functioning Autism are those who can learn about and understand their neurodiversity enough to also learn coping, or more often masking, skills.
I found that interesting.
Functioning labels are so harmful and inaccurate and I hate them so much. Masking can burn out an autistic person. I'm sure this happened to me
Oh same, that question is always weird to me. Like. Sometimes I need to hit or bite myself as a result of stimulation etc. But I never want to hurt others. These two things are really different, never understand how doctors put them together.
On the difference between Asperger's and autism; that distinction is absolutely inaccurate to the way in which it was coined. I'm not very informed, but as far as I know Asperger's syndrome was basically named after a nazi who just separated the 'good' autistic people from the 'bad' ones, AKA those he thought could still keep up with their standards for labor and explotation. Basically those useful to capital.
So yeah. I absolutely despise that term, as it's based on eugenics. Also just separating people based on if they are able to mask or not or being "high-functioning" is absolutely unhelpful and just perpetuates ableist standards and expectations. Plus, Allistic forms of communication are not necessarly the most efficient in every situation and there is growing evidence to support this.
@@notreal6762 you are correct, and I think most autistic people are aware of it’s problematic origins. I don’t think anyone is trying to erase that, or championing anything that implies one autistic person is “lesser” than another.
It was more ‘people frequently use these terms anyway, regardless of how offensive they may be to some. Here is a way I try to make these terms less demeaning, since I can’t escape their usage.’
I didn’t mean to upset you or anyone else, as I said, I just thought it was an interesting viewpoint that was fairly relevant.
Edit: maybe I should have added the context that he said this while discussing how unhelpful the high functioning label can be, as I had been masking my whole life and it was having such a negative effect. I was putting all my energy into trying to stay “high functioning” in other’s eyes, and it had completely worn me down to the point where I could no longer function at all.
@@irishalchemy Don't worry, I am not upset at all. Though I disagree with seeing utility in that definition, I didn't think your comment was malicious at all or that you were endorsing the origins of the term. Though I should not have assumed you didn't know for that matter. I hope your burnout is getting better, masking can be really draining, especially if you've been doing for so long. Good luck with everything :D
the bit in the beginning where you complimented us viewers felt really genuine and directed for some reason and i need it this morning, thank you, you’re my favorite commentary/video essay/media topic breakdown channel❤️
Shania, I want to thank you for sharing your experience with bipolar disorder. My cousin's husband was bipolar, though I don't know what type. He killed himself after a particularly violent night about a year ago. He was a deeply flawed man, but I don't consider him a monster like some members of my family. He was a good man who struggled with mental illness.
And I am sorry that you have struggled so much, I understand very well how hard depression is. But we are both strong women and we will make it through.
The ending made me a fan for life. I cannot express to you how liberating it is to hear a beautiful person such as yourself, talk about their own mental health struggles. I am sitting in a dark room that suddenly became so so bright :) Thanks for sharing a little courage
Man, the whole thing with Reid being scared of his schizophrenic symptoms - I always really related to Reid because I have a grandmother who was schizophrenic and have some symptoms and am also probably autistic, and so I get terrified I’m going to develop schizophrenia mainly because having experienced psychotic symptoms I really fear dealing with the ordeals schizophrenia brings in its onset. Also as someone who is inherently kinky and growing up very religious, I watched criminal minds and believed I was a serial killer in the making lmao. There were episodes where the unsub would have similar sexual fetishes or kinks that would lead them to kill, and really would push the idea that fantasies always lead to the fantasized acts being carried out. I could understand Reid relating to the people he hunted because I saw myself reflected in them too - but it had a lot to do with the writers taking aspects of mentally ill and kinky people like me and putting those traits in characters that were LITERAL SERIAL KILLERS. It’s so messed up in so many ways.
Thank you so much for putting captions
when i was in college (which, admittedly, not that long ago), i took a class about psychological disorders and each week we focused on a specific group of disorders. i remember when we talked about personality disorders, my professor spent a huge chunk of the class time explaining how personality disorders haven't been updated in years, despite the apa writing in an earlier dsm that personality disorders would need to be updated as more research became available. it was a while ago, so i dont remember the specifics, but i definitely think the fact that personality disorders remain static in the dsm contributes to the stigma
Would absolutely love a sequel to this talking about dissociative disorders specifically after the fourth season!!
Yeah, back when You first came out, I remember my friend half jokingly romanticizing Joe's uhhh...Passion and dedication.😭
Lol they forget sometimes that when you take out the music. And commentary all the women who love it would be terrified
Very informative and i really appreciate the people who shared their experiences with mental illness and how it's being portrayed in the media. Definitely food for thought
My mother has borderline personality disorder. Joe most definitely does not.
To me (a layperson with personal experience as well as family historieS), my opinion is that Joe suffers from a morbidity of traits, non-specified, all stemming from complex childhood PTSD. Like watering a pot of different flower seeds and not knowing what will bloom. But like I said, I'm not traditionally educated...
So here: some salt.
Thanks for including words from someone with DID. As a fellow system (person(s) with DID), anytime it's publicly pointed out how shittily we're portrayed in media I do a little internal dance; because our current media representation is either super triggering, inaccurate, sensationalized, or just plain not there. Legion, Split, and now the upcoming Moon Knight series... They all lean into the "super power" idea which I'm personally fine with, it makes it sound like less of a miserable time. But they also lean into the anti-hero/villain with "multiple personalities" trope. Why can't we have a straightforward superhero with DID who doesn't turn evil or have malicious alters. Like, we're just a traumatized group of people who have a really interesting coping mechanism in the form of hyper dissociation, to the point where our ego can't condense into one whole "identity" by the time we finish childhood. That's it. That's the game. Yeah there's a bit more to it, but the underlying point is, STOP VILLAINIZING PEOPLE WITH DISSOCIATIVE IDENTITY DISORDER.
I really love how they did it w moonknight for once we have representation thag isnt “evil serial killer” like is that so much to ask
I love how whenever someone shows even the smallest amount of kindness to Joe, he immediately becomes obsessed with them... And they usually reciporate too!
I remember reading statistics that people in people-facing jobs have a much higher likelihood of developing a stalker for the same reasons. Which is a major reason I want to avoid those jobs, even though I might like the actual work
@@yuuri9064 Was a teacher for teenagers and can confirm, I didn't have a stalker but there were people who suddenly were in love.
It's because they get basically no kindness shown to them so they latch onto the first person who is even a little nice to them, even though they have to because it's a socially acceptable thing in society or they're doing their job and they have to be polite.
@@pissapocalypse I don't think it's always this, some people really do have trouble discerning attention and kindness from sexual attention, specially teenagers and not just male.
I think it's a mixture of what you said to some people and just plain inexperience and wishful thinking in others.
@@bluester7177 Yes, but it's not an excuse to follow the person home lol
Love how this video had a LARGE portion dedicated to the portrayal and experiences of mental illness and ableism
Bashing society for being neurotypical and physically healthy will have horrible consequences for those needing the amazing capabilities society has to offer. Never attack the altruism of the healthy-wealthy-and-wise.
I don't know what's the polite way of saying that Shanspeare's videos are.....
actually
better than a lot so called documentaries.
I was trying to be polite to the documentaries' producers.
"that's the thing about not really caring much for the romance genre. you find it in media you're not really looking for it in." me watching Hannibal.
on the aspergers thing you mentioned - partner of a person with autism and adhd (on paper), with adhd (on paper) from europe here. yes, aspergers was given out as a specific diagnose in this case around 15 yrs ago, but is now not used clinically anymore and integrated into the autism spectrum. the feel about the whole thing i get from listening to my partners' and his families story and all the research i have read, is that aspergers kinda got, and in some cases still gets thrown onto people with autism who are high functioning, ergo especially good at hiding their discomfort at existing in the current human system, or considered more intelligent than the average person, among other things.
the general taste i get, with the media and context i have been presented in my life, is of autism being the thing you avoid as those are the uncomfortable, rigid, nonverbal, sometimes violent beings in wheelchairs, and aspergers being the quirky and awkward nerd people who are okay, sometimes cute, mostly just a little annoying. which is bullshit, just so we are clear here. also notice me using 'beings' vs. 'people', there definitely is some dehumanizing going on.
it is way too late where i am to write a whole ass rant about what i have learned in the last couple of years since i got my own diagnose and learned to live, but in case it interests you, this is at least a little bit of context to the topic.
i was looking to see if someone had commented about this, thank you!
it really frustrates me how people think autism is one presentation or another, or that knowing one person/character with undesirable qualities means autistic people are just annoying and "crazy" or that autistic people are pure lil savants bc of some super smart character or person they know. autism isn't one dimensional. it also doesn't shape or define a person. autistic people can be flawed and can have desirable qualities like any other person.
this applies to people with other "disorders" or even without too.
(it's in brackets basically bc i really despise mental diagnoses being seen/upheld as inherent by both the psych/med industry and the general public including people with diagnoses, instead of existing in people while shaped by context).
When I first watched you, I remember not really having an opinion of beck. I didn’t hate her or love her, like I am with most other characters in media. But when I started watching videos about the show and going to fan spaces, I saw so many people complaining about her that it pretty much changed my opinion towards her. It’s sad honestly, I didn’t realize how biased and sexist a lot of the hate against her was.
For context, I am a white woman. Normally I don't come into a room and announce that but considering the topic matter I find it relevant. XD
Joe is the embodiment of everything about men I have ever been scared of and/or distrust. For me the show is fascinating the same way watching a great white scoping out a seal is fascinating and it's probably the only show characterized as "romance" I've ever willingly watched. Looked forward to.
When Marion entered the picture I thought to myself, "She's the one whose going to take him down. She is past the point of putting up with any newly introduced shit piles in her life. She's a proven survivor. She is our champion." I can't even grasp how people saw her as a villain. She was the woman I was waiting three seasons for. Who the fuck would villainize Marion??
Fr like Marianne is such a great character, it's so odd to villanize her
@@Sam-0827 She has depth, complexity, substance. She's the only one that doesn't seem to be made of thin air. Perhaps those that villainize her lack these same qualities themselves.
@@cleoharper1842 I agree cause she was epic and her speech about listening to your inner voice was such great writing
@@Sam-0827 IKR?? Loved that so so much!
@@cleoharper1842 I can definitely see that I hope she’s the downfall of Joe he needs to leave her and Julia alone 💯
Please keep making videos longer than 30 min for those of us (me) who just won't watch it unless it's long af. This video made me subscribe.
I think one reason people have an easier time forgiving things like murder in fictional characters is that it's too "big concept". That is to say, it's not something most people have to deal with in their everyday lives (thankfully!). However, everyone has to deal with someone who they find annoying - siblings, co-workers, etc. - so it's easier to hate these traits in fictional characters as it's easier to relate to their own lives.
I’m at 1:25 and I’m disabled and I appreciate you so much for letting us talk. Thank you. For me, it feels so hard, exhausting, and fruitless a lot of times I’ve tried to put my thoughts and experiences into words so for everyone who shared their experiences, thank you so much. More ppl need to hear our voices so we can start to work on the systems that make living w our disabilities even more difficult and harmful.
You are amazing. Thank you all so much.❤️
sorry to be off topic but HOLY I am distracted by how nice her voice is, it's calming me down a truly ridiculous amount. Also, it tooke me no time whatsoever to like this video because she is killing this topic and damn I can appreciate good art
they use they /them pronouns. Please edit your comment 🏳️⚧️
My friend told me once, about one of my many ramblings on my undiagmosed chronic pain: if you feel it, it is real. Those words healed something in me I didnt know was broken. Him saying that, in such a gentle, loving, and accepting way, made me really know how much my friends believe me. Many of my friends suffer from chronic pain, as birds of a feather flock together, but this particular friend doesn’t. Hearing something so accepting from an able bodied person felt life changing, not to be overdramatic. I wish that disabled reprentation in the media were better, both as a disabled person and someone with many disabled loved ones. Thank you for this video.
Check out the trope “ambiguous disorder”. It addresses a lot of the stigmatizing issues of now giving a attributes to a characterization which are strongly tied to mental disorders and/or neurodivergence in the cultures mind to the role of a character while beating around the book and never confirming a diagnosis for them. It’s a double edged sword, but is an issue in that it can then lead to actual symptoms of mental illness being handled in these portrayals without delicacy or grace deserved to them.
See Sheldon in the Big Bang theory- a lot of his quirks are laughed at for being ridiculous and such an annoyance to the rest of the cast; however these quirks are strongly relatable to many asd audience members. If Sheldon was confirmed as being on the spectrum suddenly the jokes at the expense of his minds way of processing things would be unmasked as hurtful and would never pass. However without the diagnosis the symptoms being mocked shared by those who are on the autistic spectrum are still being stigmatized and made fun of.
Your segment about You: A psychological study brought this up for me and it’s going along with what you were saying with more examples
Thank you for sharing about your mental illness. I have bipolar II aswell and it sometimes gets really lonely to go through it alone, when people around you don't understand anything at all what it's like. Seeing people share their stories encourages me to keep on going and don't feel "crazy" ♥️