I think being able to get your cadence just right for you on a longer climb is probably advantageous. When I came back into MTB after not riding for years I found not having those gear options ( on a 1X) tricky. I've never been a great climber but I personally think more gears works better on climbs. That "vintage" bike wasn't old my first MTB was a fully rigid Orange clockwork back in 1993. I eventually put some Pace RC 35 forks on it. I have a Giant ATX 990 in the loft you can use next time 😂
I feel like a 2x drivetrain similar to current gravel setups might be pretty good imo. Good balance on top speed on straights and available gearing for climbs.
Great video, I absolutely love budget hardtails. I would absolutely LOVE a video comparing a bunch of the entry level hardtails. I'd definitely include the giant talon, and specialized rockhopper since those are the most widely available high quality budget hardtails for lots of the US. Thanks for all the good tips and information, but even more importantly, the fun entertainment you guys put out 👍
I agree. Not only because my budget and entry into the sport limits me to HTs, but because I usually feel like videos comparing HT to FS are apples to oranges. Plus anyone starting a sport but willing to drop $3000 on their first FS bike honestly probably aren't splitting hairs like we do and just buy what fits them and looks cool at the shop
I just got a budget bike last month, the Schwinn Al Comp 27.5 for 298 USD. At 68 I don't go downhill that fast anymore, and seems to be holding up quite well. It's was amazing, it came in a box, the wheels were true, the brakes and derailers need no adjustments, maybe I was just lucky.
Did you get the Walmart AL Comp? Make sure it's greased in all the right spots. ;-) (missing grease in the bottom bracket / headset is common on those) That's a fun bike for sure!
The thing you can't compare though is that those of us that raced all that early kit also knew how to ride those bikes to their limits. If you've only ridden 29'ers with wide bars, 1x gearing and a less suicidal head angle, you're just not going to ride the old bikes the way they were meant to be ridden. I'm 50 now and am still riding an early 2000's Yeti ARC (full XTR, fox float 32, cross maxes and V-brakes -- weighing in sub 20lbs btw). The dozen or so guys I ride with regularly are all a decade or more younger and all ride modern XC bikes, some hardtail, some not, and I'm never last to the bottom, and often I'm first. Knowing how to ride what you've got has a lot to do with how you finish when the clock's ticking.
Great video. Myself and two buddies have that generation Spark (Ranging in years from 2008-2011). The head angle isn't 70, its 69, and slacks to 68 with the supported 120mm fork. We have all opted for wider bars, replaced that "innovative" Scott Nude shock with a FOX RP23 & ProPedal that actually works. Two of the bikes have SRAM XX 2x10 while the 2008 has the same 3x9 XTR you showed here. I have a Dropper in mine, and my buddy is getting his integrated post chopped to have a dropper put in, the mold on the IST is the same diameter as the standard Spark 10. Anyway even after adding wider bars, a dropper, wider tires with modern compounds, the bike still only comes in at 23lbs or 10.4kg with Shimano XT pedals. If you have kept the bike as long as we have, you certainly have made quality of life upgrades.
Can't help thinking that a set of wider handlebars would have narrowed the result somewhat. Still, a good article. Personally, since I am not in a race, I'd take the Scott, just so I could appreciate the engineering and build quality. That would give me pleasure every time I used it.
@@jonathancraig1738 "I put a shorter stem and 780 bars on my 2010 Stumpjumper FSR" Me too! I also have a 2010 Stumpjumper with wider bars on. I also put a set of Mavic Crossmax SL wheels on it (just love eBay), they're absolutely transformational (also run tubeless tyres). It rides XC beautifully, although I do prefer something more modern at a bike park.
I'm old school (or just old) but I prefer a triple chainring. Running out of gear on a undulating decent is just maddening. A 7 mile fire road climb, "say hello to my little friend" the granny ring has been my savior untold times. You took the one part on a MTB that rarely broke or wore out and got rid of it? 3x8 m900 XTR is one of the best drive trains ever made.
Agreed, I also do love a 3x9. No idea why they got rid of it just to save 400 grams of metal. Not to mention, how much longer those three sprockets will last compared to having one big one in the front.
Love a 3x setup in the gear ratios it offers, while I don't really care for a front derailleur, I learn to deal with it. I won't go less than a 3x setup, pretty much gives you a ratio for most occasions. Mine is a 3x8 22/32/42 11-34.
@@sankaplays3098yeah I constantly see people saying changing to a 1x saving weight, but really you don't really notice that weight taken off from the drivetrain, not as much as you would by shaving that same amount of weight off from the wheels.
I ended my relation with MTB in early 2000' and switched to road bikes. After almost 20 years I bought my wife an budget friendly MTB on 29's (she did not want a gravel bike for gravel roads). I've tried it and I was in shock: the first, immediate impression was, that it almost feel like a downhill bike I remembered (tires+handlebar) which goes fine uphill. Bought similar for myself ;) Back to the roots! (literally and figuratively)
That Scott is absolutely amazing. Love my 02 cannondale Jekyll with the lefty for anything xc. But weird how much bikes have changed in regards to going downhill
My last bike was an 02 jekyll with the lefty, in cream color. I love that bike! The 2008 Scott doesn't even seem vintage haha. Should have been a trek Y bike in carbon fiber, if there are any survivors to test, most cracked on a side impact though.
This. You couldn't get me to take the new bike if the Scott was an option either. Still ride my 2008 Cannondale F2 Caffeine, see no reason to swap it for something else. It's a beautiful little bike that handles well.
i still spent less then 450 euros getting an specialized fsr xc comp '09 an 26' (did a proper maintenance) still keep up the pace with my frien :)rds with brand new 27,5 29, and i am not afraid of ride hard, still performs and didnt cost me a kidney
I built up a 2001 litespeed toccoa frame last year. I put i9 hydra hubs 140mm rock shox fork and nx eagle. I love it. It’s cool to hear someone else ripping on a vintage litespeed.
would love to see a vintage xxl 26'er restomodded to a 29/26 = 69er large reach with a 120mm air fork and shock ... 1500 pound budget for old and new bikes
I ride an 04' marin hawk hill. Stock it was high stack, coil marzoochi fork and it rode okay. It was just a bike. I lowered the stack to one big spacer, uncut raceface atlas bars and raceface stem w 6° angle in 90mm, also put on a rockshox recon silver (air) and maxxis ardents (same ones on the scott lol) and omg, now it feels really, really good. I also have 185mm mechanical avid discs. Plenty of power to stop, plenty of handling, and not to mention it is SOOOOOO plush now. Its a completely different bike and owns the streets of downtown Nashville and surrounding trails thruought the state.
I am still riding two 26" vintage super bikes...Kona King Kikapu and Rocky Mountain ETS-X 70. Last week I hesitate to buy a YETI ASR SL from the same period. These bikes are like sport classic cars, when you know how to ride them you can be still be very competitive (and you prove it in your video even if I recommend wider bars than the original build) and having the pleasure to ride different and bring some good nostalgia vibes all around
You get used to that slightly twitchy feel the older bike has. I think if you rode the Scott for a month then did the test again it would be a different story on the downhill.
Put at least 740mm bars on the Spark for more stable handling. Still a predictable test. The only riders who prefer old geos and small wheels are still on them due familiarity, not performance. Old bikes just aren't comfortable nor faster. Also, look at the crap tires on the Orbea. If it had better tires, it would have won every challenge,
@@jimmy8x541 Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the geometry on modern bikes is better than the older ones. However it's a comparison between a lighter weight, full suspension bike against a pretty standard hardtail. The modern bike is just going to feel more familiar to Rich, which I suspect makes quite a big difference to his speed on the downhill. Maybe Rich will prove me wrong at a later date?
yeah, that's totally right. You will be faster on technical stuff when you are used to the handling of the bike you are riding. Doesn't mean this twitchy geo is better, but humans have a lot of ability to adjust to different steering geometry.
Got my first mtb as a kid in 1984. Bars have gone from "bull moose" wide curved bars, to super narrow, to where we are now. Marketing has always told us that the newest was always the best; ie narrow bars made the bike more maneuverable and better for going through tight trails. No we are back to wide bars are best.
I just bought a kona abra cadabra. The one with the magic link. 9x3 scandium alloy. It's a crazy ride on the DH. 12 YEARS old & still a thing of beauty.
I like how the budget hardtail is an Orbea that's priced around 1k 😅 For most people it's not considered budget 😅 I built my Merida Big Seven from an unloved past for around 350 euros 😄
I kinda agree, £300-500 is a minimum/if your lucky for a usable 2nd hand xc/trail bike. That’s ok if you want to just pedal about. But if you want to go really fast and leave the ground, you need £1000-1500 used and £2k+ for new.
That orbea is a lot of bike for $1k. If someone saved their money, and invested in that for a first bike, they would be happy for a long time. I agree it's expensive, but a good investment.
3:59 pretty similar head tube and seat tube angles as my bicycle (71° headtube, 73° seat tube), but my top tube is even shorter @ 534mm vs 610mm. I absolutely love the 3x chain ring, i refuse to use anything less, even though i hate the front derailleurs because they're so archaic and often temperamental but they do their job. A 3x gives you access to a gear ratio for most types of riding.
I have not yet decided to replace my 2x9 Shimano Deore transmission system with a 1x. The 2x9 system has become a 2nd nature to me as far as my use of it is concerned. Lots of love, cheers, & mabuhay, from my end--the Philippines! #RideOn #KeepBiking
The fewer you have on the front the more you should have at the back to preserve the gear range. 1x12 gives as much range as a typical 3x set up (depending on one's chainring & cassette choices of course!) Not sure what 1x anything less than 12 would feel like. Big steps between gears I imagine & often not able to find the correct cadence! 2x11 for me & it's the perfect compromise.
@@jason200912 yup, I have a 3x setup, pretty much gives you a gear ratio for most occasions. If you need to climb, change it into the small chain ring and let it eat, if you need speed, change it into the largest chain ring. If you don't need to climb or speed the center chain ring will do. If I remember correctly my 3x chain ring is 22/32/42 and my rear is 11-34.
I have a 2011 Specialized Epic Marathon carbon 26". It dont see many trails anymore but I still put some miles on it. Last year Strava said I did 900 miles. Slacking this year and maybe done a bit over 100 miles. I'm going to keep riding my classic until something finally gives out. Do want to grab a gravel bike to cruise the streets with.
Until last autumn, i was still riding a 2001 Santa Cruz chameleon. Loved it. Did upgrade the front forks/wheel/brake in 2011 though. Finally got a full sums machine (Santa Cruz 5010).but didn’t have the space to keep both.
I think that if they were to change just the front end of the Scott to a 27.5 inch wheel and suspension fork combination it would improve its abilities against the modern bike. I've been adding those changes to my own retros with very nice results. Such as: Better rollover and slacker head angle. A sort of resto-mod, I suppose 😊
I would say that the components on the older bikes are very good, the main difference is in the wheel size - i built a good 26er a while back and rode it, I loved it, but I jumped to 27.5 and felt it straight away
I have 3 road bikes....2 Cannondales ...early 90s 3.0 Criterium Frames, and a early/ mid 2000sFuji Team SL....all aluminum.... My single mountain bike is a 2001Specialixed Stumpjumper Pro....it is never leaving my possession....Made in the USA...fairly light and fast as all frig, I rode it for two seasons while I was getting my Fuji back in shape....the Stumpjumper was so fast on my usual loop in Brooklyn (Prospect Park) that I wasn’t in such a rush🤷🏻♂️....the Fuji’s drive side crank arm (carbon FSA) had pedal threads that I destroyed with my MASSIVELY POWERFUL legs😂😂...and a long cage rear derailleur that I wanted to swap for the correct short cage....Campy Chorus 10 speed.....I’m not so obsessed or enamoured with the current shift in overall upgrades across the board that I’m thinking about buying in
Nice! I also own the Onna. Which stem (length) and rise bar do you use? Did you remove the spacers or did you simply replace the handlebars? Thank you! 😊
@@stefanschmal8984 I use a 35mm stem i had laying around and a 70mm ergotec riser bar (i have back problems and i need to be a little more upright than usual)
I instantly regretted changing to 1x for 2x. My XT 8000 2x shifted perfectly and never dropped the chain (ok it happened once). My eagle XX1 drops the chain pretty rarely, but it’s not any better than the 2x was. Sure the 1x is a little lighter but the lower gears and higher gears on the 2x makes it faster for XC type riding.
I noticed everytime Rich does an Budget vs Expensive Video. The "Budget" thing isn't exactly Budget. These days I can afford an bike like that but back when I couldn't and was someone looking for budget bikes I actually meant something below or around 500. I don't think people that type sonething like "best budget Mountainbike" in Google are looking for 1000€ bikes lol
I work with a guy that was interested in trying mountain biking until I told him he should spend at least $700 on a new bike. The prices are inflated, but anything under $500 is just not worth it. Although there are some Walmart bikes that come close.
custom hope carbon levers hahaha, dude those were just an option on the 07 mono mini lever, you can still buy them as spares. i have some on the mono m4's on the trek in the garage. recenty had to buy new brass barrels for them as the carbon wears the brass into an oval
I still use my '07 Rockhopper for XC and it's great, was first person in my club running a 1x10 setup on a HT back in '13 and thing is still a mountain goat! Honestly think it's a coin flip between my '16 S-Works Stumpy and '09 Enduro Elite as the best bike I've ever run. I buy and build up older frames to my personal preference and only ever bought one new bike, a '15 roadie from Ribble that still gets all my road miles. Nothing wrong with saving money using older tech!
That’s the point! XC MTBs wear out like hell in general compared to road bikes. Drivetrain suspension wheels etc it’s all consumable when you actually do some training!
Imagine that! 3 chain rings being faster on the uphill, who would have thought?? Another reason why I prefer a 2 by over a 1 by drivetrain. 1 by just doesn't have the needed range for steep hills.
In the 90's we didn't have wide open, flowing, groomed trails. It was tight, technical, obstacle strewn SINGLE track. Narrow bars were narrow for a reason. You had to fit in a narrow trail. Granny gears were low for a reason."Twitchy" was necessary to navigate trails with ruts, roots, ROCKS, and actual difficult terrain. That magic carpet you get to ride will of course favor a long, low and slack modern bike.
I'm going to guess that the Scott could have been lighter with a set of carbon tubulars rather than the wheelset in the video. Of course, they make them for 29'ers today, you just need to find them. They're wonderful.
I started mtn biking in 1991 and have been amazed at the changes in geometry and tech. I think the best changes are, wider bars, longer reach, and droppers.
I've had an old Cannondale beast of the east (don't know how old exactly, between 8x and 9x purple frame) which I thought was really good. Didn't come with disc brakes, but had adjustable forks and was veeeery light too. I really enjoyed riding that.
I would love to have a 2x on my enduro, i do not mind cable mess and more maintenance is so better to go uphill with 3x or 2x, i changed my canyon stoic and my gf avalanche to 2x both and we have more fun uphill. I see 1x good just for e-bikes, wonder how pinion gearbox system works, would love to test that.
Fun video. My last MTB was a Giant Anthem Advanced with 26” wheels and really narrow bars. If I were to buy a new MTB anytime soon, it would have to be on the budget side.
makes me curious as to what the design philosophy was back then. narrower bars = more aero? Or had they just not got around yet to experimenting with wider bars for control?
Been riding since 1995. My quess is that climbing and sprinting ability controlled bar widths, which allows for more side to side swing while peddling out of the saddle on climbs and sprints. A plus since most riders were turning over 175mm cranks in those times.
Been riding mountains bikes since the mid-80s in the South, the narrow bars were required where we rode because the trails where true trails and were usually narrow. There was no grooming or cutting down trees, the actual "trail" a lot of times was only about a foot wide.@@BirdmanDeuce26
I've got a scott scale xc rc aged really well there's not much difference in my bike and the one in the video can 100% say that the nude shock is on another level with remote lock out you get 3 settings never had any issues old but gold
@@Roland26778 attacking and grinding a climb is much faster than smooth cadence. You might manage a smooth cadence attacking a road climb, but not off-road.
I own a 1999 Univega RAM full sus, which was pretty much top notch for your regular, average John Doe back then. It's in almost new condition, even the pads on the Magura Julie are still the first ones. While in no means comparable to the featured Scott, I prefer riding it over any midrange new bike anytime. It's my own little timecapsule that takes me back to when I first started riding, but couldn't afford more than a Marin hardtail
I just bought a giant xtc 2022 of ov eBay brand new £710 to say it’s not the best x country I’ve ever ridden is a understatement every bit of power you put in the pedals is paid of in massive quantities, when it comes to buying a bike think b4 you buy trail bikes are great but don’t buy one if all you ride is xc flat canal paths.
I would take the 2008 Scott in a heartbeat! These “ modern “ bikes are nothing but a gimmick! I could go on and on about all the specs of each. Plus the cranks and rear derailleur on the scott are masterpieces. Even the suspension on the scott is still top of line. Just change a few components on the scott as it’s a timeless MTB!
You really don't get something good for 300. Euro at least. New at least. The onna 50 - cheaper fork else same(?) Is down to 430ish though. N funnily enough the better fork can be bought for less than the difference of onna 50 to 10. That's nothing to do with gatekeeping just reality. Used a Scott Genius mc30 for jumps. Shouldn't have broke it. Xc bike n jumps well. Aaaanyway. Also jumped an old steel MTB. The landings were not that terribly harsh. You can still do some jumps n all kinds of trails on a really old cheap full steel MTB. Maybe try getting a 29 in front. or just really fat tyres.
I still have a 2009 Kona Dawg Supreme frame that i cant bring myself to depart with....the thing was an absolute beast on the downs....I now have a Whyte t130 set up 1x but i still miss the 2x 10 double and bash set up of the Kona
thinking about getting on Onna 50 or 40 on sale.They come with either 2x8 or 2x9.I have a spare XT rd m772 so I could use that and maybe convert my old triple Stylo chainset to double and bring some weight down off factory specs.Even if 29 wheels look huge they are the way to go over bumpy stuff and provide more grip on slippy climbs also better for mileage
Mike's racing bike is a '98 team issue Sasquatch, hardtail; mine is a '96 team issue GT LTS thermoplastic carbon, full suspension (how I got so lucky to have owned not one, but TWO team issue GTs I'll never know. The broken one is a '92 LTS-3. Micro fractures all through the front triangle). At age 50, we still love those bikes. We love the narrower handlebars, the fact that we have to work to ride the bikes, rather than the bikes doing all the riding for us, and my suspension floats over stuff. We don't do hardcore downhill (anymore. Mike used to race road, DH and XC), mostly cross-country with some techy stuff, but we love the ride. We do have a question though, Rich. You're doing a test of XC bikes yet you didn't take them cross-country. Why?
I expect the Scott felt very unusual to someone that is used to riding bigger wheels, wider bars and slacker head angle and you aren't going to be able to just jump on set good times. If I look at my old Strava times for when I was regularly riding 26" I don't really see a massive difference to what I'm doing now. Sure, my bikes are more comfortable and stable now but not really faster. A more interesting comparison would be an early 29er compared to something current. My 2011 Scott Scale was fantastic and I only changed it because I wanted a bolt through rear axle
I just in March finished a frame-up build on a 2008 Specialized Epic Marathon 26" (very direct competitor to the Spark) for about $1100. I went with Deore 2x10 instead of 1x to save some money, otherwise it's all "second from top" of the line mostly. I much prefer it to my 2021 Stumpjumper Elite HT.
2008 was only .... oh wait . I'm old !
I was born in 2008
The reality sinks in … I feel ya brother
I get that exact feeling all the time.
Scary how the years just tick away 🤯
The days are long, but the years are short!
Going by the music, I didn't realize the 80s remained in England till 2008!
Interesting to see that despite a triple chainring being seen as well out of date it was appreciated on the uphills 🥵
Doubles and triples are out of date because brands said so. Don't get too surprised if they try to sell them back in a few years
@@puntoycoma47 Yep couldnt agree more. I'll even take it a step further. I see the whole retro mtb/atb do everything bikes making a comeback.
I think being able to get your cadence just right for you on a longer climb is probably advantageous. When I came back into MTB after not riding for years I found not having those gear options ( on a 1X) tricky. I've never been a great climber but I personally think more gears works better on climbs.
That "vintage" bike wasn't old my first MTB was a fully rigid Orange clockwork back in 1993. I eventually put some Pace RC 35 forks on it.
I have a Giant ATX 990 in the loft you can use next time 😂
For those of us in the know. We stuck with our mechs. Shimanos 2X12 modern MTB drives are simply *chefs kiss*
I feel like a 2x drivetrain similar to current gravel setups might be pretty good imo. Good balance on top speed on straights and available gearing for climbs.
Retro-Rich brings all the right kinds of energy!!
You've got to do more of these videos! Get the Zaskars, LTS, RTS, Yetis etc compared to the modern ones...
Great video, I absolutely love budget hardtails. I would absolutely LOVE a video comparing a bunch of the entry level hardtails. I'd definitely include the giant talon, and specialized rockhopper since those are the most widely available high quality budget hardtails for lots of the US. Thanks for all the good tips and information, but even more importantly, the fun entertainment you guys put out 👍
I agree. Not only because my budget and entry into the sport limits me to HTs, but because I usually feel like videos comparing HT to FS are apples to oranges.
Plus anyone starting a sport but willing to drop $3000 on their first FS bike honestly probably aren't splitting hairs like we do and just buy what fits them and looks cool at the shop
I just got a budget bike last month, the Schwinn Al Comp 27.5 for 298 USD. At 68 I don't go downhill that fast anymore, and seems to be holding up quite well. It's was amazing, it came in a box, the wheels were true, the brakes and derailers need no adjustments, maybe I was just lucky.
Did you get the Walmart AL Comp? Make sure it's greased in all the right spots. ;-) (missing grease in the bottom bracket / headset is common on those) That's a fun bike for sure!
The thing you can't compare though is that those of us that raced all that early kit also knew how to ride those bikes to their limits. If you've only ridden 29'ers with wide bars, 1x gearing and a less suicidal head angle, you're just not going to ride the old bikes the way they were meant to be ridden. I'm 50 now and am still riding an early 2000's Yeti ARC (full XTR, fox float 32, cross maxes and V-brakes -- weighing in sub 20lbs btw). The dozen or so guys I ride with regularly are all a decade or more younger and all ride modern XC bikes, some hardtail, some not, and I'm never last to the bottom, and often I'm first. Knowing how to ride what you've got has a lot to do with how you finish when the clock's ticking.
Great video. Myself and two buddies have that generation Spark (Ranging in years from 2008-2011). The head angle isn't 70, its 69, and slacks to 68 with the supported 120mm fork. We have all opted for wider bars, replaced that "innovative" Scott Nude shock with a FOX RP23 & ProPedal that actually works. Two of the bikes have SRAM XX 2x10 while the 2008 has the same 3x9 XTR you showed here. I have a Dropper in mine, and my buddy is getting his integrated post chopped to have a dropper put in, the mold on the IST is the same diameter as the standard Spark 10. Anyway even after adding wider bars, a dropper, wider tires with modern compounds, the bike still only comes in at 23lbs or 10.4kg with Shimano XT pedals. If you have kept the bike as long as we have, you certainly have made quality of life upgrades.
You can also put Ikon 2.35 front python 2.25 rear with inserts and drop the pressure. Would reduce the difference between 26 and 29 significantly.
Would love to see a video of those!
Did your friend cutted the integrated seatpost and added a dropper? I have one and I was thinking about doing the same
I have a 1997 haro mtb, kept the frame, upgraded the rest. Rides great, solid as a tank . 26" wheels but still rides great.
i still regret selling a CrMo 2000 Haro Vector. Keep it!
Can't help thinking that a set of wider handlebars would have narrowed the result somewhat.
Still, a good article. Personally, since I am not in a race, I'd take the Scott, just so I could appreciate the engineering and build quality. That would give me pleasure every time I used it.
Agree. I put a shorter stem and 780 bars on my 2010 Stumpjumper FSR and it's a great bike made better. Stock bars were 660mm!!!
Exactly, wider bars and shorter stems bring older bikes into the modern age. -and maybe a non-integral seat pole would have helped 😂
@@jonathancraig1738 "I put a shorter stem and 780 bars on my 2010 Stumpjumper FSR"
Me too! I also have a 2010 Stumpjumper with wider bars on. I also put a set of Mavic Crossmax SL wheels on it (just love eBay), they're absolutely transformational (also run tubeless tyres).
It rides XC beautifully, although I do prefer something more modern at a bike park.
I'm old school (or just old) but I prefer a triple chainring. Running out of gear on a undulating decent is just maddening. A 7 mile fire road climb, "say hello to my little friend" the granny ring has been my savior untold times. You took the one part on a MTB that rarely broke or wore out and got rid of it?
3x8 m900 XTR is one of the best drive trains ever made.
Agreed, I also do love a 3x9. No idea why they got rid of it just to save 400 grams of metal. Not to mention, how much longer those three sprockets will last compared to having one big one in the front.
Love a 3x setup in the gear ratios it offers, while I don't really care for a front derailleur, I learn to deal with it. I won't go less than a 3x setup, pretty much gives you a ratio for most occasions. Mine is a 3x8 22/32/42 11-34.
@@sankaplays3098yeah I constantly see people saying changing to a 1x saving weight, but really you don't really notice that weight taken off from the drivetrain, not as much as you would by shaving that same amount of weight off from the wheels.
I ended my relation with MTB in early 2000' and switched to road bikes. After almost 20 years I bought my wife an budget friendly MTB on 29's (she did not want a gravel bike for gravel roads). I've tried it and I was in shock: the first, immediate impression was, that it almost feel like a downhill bike I remembered (tires+handlebar) which goes fine uphill. Bought similar for myself ;) Back to the roots! (literally and figuratively)
That Scott is absolutely amazing. Love my 02 cannondale Jekyll with the lefty for anything xc. But weird how much bikes have changed in regards to going downhill
My last bike was an 02 jekyll with the lefty, in cream color. I love that bike! The 2008 Scott doesn't even seem vintage haha. Should have been a trek Y bike in carbon fiber, if there are any survivors to test, most cracked on a side impact though.
This. You couldn't get me to take the new bike if the Scott was an option either. Still ride my 2008 Cannondale F2 Caffeine, see no reason to swap it for something else. It's a beautiful little bike that handles well.
i still spent less then 450 euros getting an specialized fsr xc comp '09 an 26' (did a proper maintenance) still keep up the pace with my frien :)rds with brand new 27,5 29, and i am not afraid of ride hard, still performs and didnt cost me a kidney
I still ride a 1999 Litespeed Hard tail with 26in wheelset and Vbrakes!!!
96 Breezer Lightning here, and I still love it!
I built up a 2001 litespeed toccoa frame last year. I put i9 hydra hubs 140mm rock shox fork and nx eagle. I love it. It’s cool to hear someone else ripping on a vintage litespeed.
87 Mantis X/C R elevated chainstays
Brilliant! Now we are waiting for a carbon Giant NRS with wider bars and a dropper vs a budget bike!
I dont get the 1x trend. I feel like 2x was the sweet spot, sad that this isnt a think anymore
would love to see a vintage xxl 26'er restomodded to a 29/26 = 69er large reach with a 120mm air fork and shock ... 1500 pound budget for old and new bikes
I ride an 04' marin hawk hill. Stock it was high stack, coil marzoochi fork and it rode okay. It was just a bike. I lowered the stack to one big spacer, uncut raceface atlas bars and raceface stem w 6° angle in 90mm, also put on a rockshox recon silver (air) and maxxis ardents (same ones on the scott lol) and omg, now it feels really, really good. I also have 185mm mechanical avid discs. Plenty of power to stop, plenty of handling, and not to mention it is SOOOOOO plush now. Its a completely different bike and owns the streets of downtown Nashville and surrounding trails thruought the state.
Budget bike… brings an Orbea. 😅
Haha aren't they sponsored by orbea? Mad it's not even the cheapest orbea onna.
They get paid to bring the orbea. The whole channel is paid promotion.
I am still riding two 26" vintage super bikes...Kona King Kikapu and Rocky Mountain ETS-X 70. Last week I hesitate to buy a YETI ASR SL from the same period. These bikes are like sport classic cars, when you know how to ride them you can be still be very competitive (and you prove it in your video even if I recommend wider bars than the original build) and having the pleasure to ride different and bring some good nostalgia vibes all around
I'll stick to my old school 26" bikes. 29ers weigh way too much.
My 29er FS weighs 22lbs.
@@Desertbiker617you're missing the point, same in 26" is what?
You get used to that slightly twitchy feel the older bike has. I think if you rode the Scott for a month then did the test again it would be a different story on the downhill.
Put at least 740mm bars on the Spark for more stable handling. Still a predictable test. The only riders who prefer old geos and small wheels are still on them due familiarity, not performance. Old bikes just aren't comfortable nor faster. Also, look at the crap tires on the Orbea. If it had better tires, it would have won every challenge,
i remember when we wanted twitchy bikes.
you just refuse to accept the truth
@@jimmy8x541 Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the geometry on modern bikes is better than the older ones. However it's a comparison between a lighter weight, full suspension bike against a pretty standard hardtail. The modern bike is just going to feel more familiar to Rich, which I suspect makes quite a big difference to his speed on the downhill. Maybe Rich will prove me wrong at a later date?
yeah, that's totally right. You will be faster on technical stuff when you are used to the handling of the bike you are riding. Doesn't mean this twitchy geo is better, but humans have a lot of ability to adjust to different steering geometry.
Got my first mtb as a kid in 1984. Bars have gone from "bull moose" wide curved bars, to super narrow, to where we are now. Marketing has always told us that the newest was always the best; ie narrow bars made the bike more maneuverable and better for going through tight trails. No we are back to wide bars are best.
That’s how they keep you spending money on new gears
Amazing a fixed seat post, way up in the sky, I always cringed at those older XC races with no droppers, terrifying!
I just bought a kona abra cadabra. The one with the magic link. 9x3 scandium alloy. It's a crazy ride on the DH. 12 YEARS old & still a thing of beauty.
Bro the 70’s soundtracks are fire 🔥 😁 like for just that.
When the quality dropped on me to 240p on the Scott climb… that’s when I really felt it.
Authentic!
I like how the budget hardtail is an Orbea that's priced around 1k 😅 For most people it's not considered budget 😅 I built my Merida Big Seven from an unloved past for around 350 euros 😄
building from frame can be cheap if you know how to buy
I kinda agree, £300-500 is a minimum/if your lucky for a usable 2nd hand xc/trail bike.
That’s ok if you want to just pedal about. But if you want to go really fast and leave the ground, you need £1000-1500 used and £2k+ for new.
You're poor
it's not budget but hey, they are selling stuff here😂
That orbea is a lot of bike for $1k. If someone saved their money, and invested in that for a first bike, they would be happy for a long time. I agree it's expensive, but a good investment.
The wheel size and handlebar width was the difference maker.
Do you mean to tell me the lighter, taller bike was better on the climbs and worse on descents?!! Shocked! Absolutely shocked
3:59 pretty similar head tube and seat tube angles as my bicycle (71° headtube, 73° seat tube), but my top tube is even shorter @ 534mm vs 610mm.
I absolutely love the 3x chain ring, i refuse to use anything less, even though i hate the front derailleurs because they're so archaic and often temperamental but they do their job. A 3x gives you access to a gear ratio for most types of riding.
I’ve got that Scott in my garage still. It has a child seat strapped to it. Still rides great
I have not yet decided to replace my 2x9 Shimano Deore transmission system with a 1x. The 2x9 system has become a 2nd nature to me as far as my use of it is concerned.
Lots of love, cheers, & mabuhay, from my end--the Philippines! #RideOn #KeepBiking
2x is best. Nobody will admit it.
A 2x or 3x is a requirement if you want to use it on the road.
The fewer you have on the front the more you should have at the back to preserve the gear range. 1x12 gives as much range as a typical 3x set up (depending on one's chainring & cassette choices of course!)
Not sure what 1x anything less than 12 would feel like. Big steps between gears I imagine & often not able to find the correct cadence! 2x11 for me & it's the perfect compromise.
@@jason200912 yup, I have a 3x setup, pretty much gives you a gear ratio for most occasions. If you need to climb, change it into the small chain ring and let it eat, if you need speed, change it into the largest chain ring. If you don't need to climb or speed the center chain ring will do.
If I remember correctly my 3x chain ring is 22/32/42 and my rear is 11-34.
I have a 2011 Specialized Epic Marathon carbon 26". It dont see many trails anymore but I still put some miles on it. Last year Strava said I did 900 miles. Slacking this year and maybe done a bit over 100 miles. I'm going to keep riding my classic until something finally gives out. Do want to grab a gravel bike to cruise the streets with.
@GMBN... So if you were to put some modern higher volume fast rolling tires on the 2008 Superbike what do you think would happen???
Some wider bars too.
And a dropper
Until last autumn, i was still riding a 2001 Santa Cruz chameleon. Loved it. Did upgrade the front forks/wheel/brake in 2011 though. Finally got a full sums machine (Santa Cruz 5010).but didn’t have the space to keep both.
Now do retro super trail bike vs modern cheap trail please
What year would that retro trail bike be from? I wonder if I saw a similar video before
@@erikd6124 not sure? I guess a similar age to the one on this video, maybe I should of used a different word instead of retro hahaha
@@hansjongenburger the time span of retro is geting larger and larger,which is fine but I think we need to mentioned time span in the future too.
How about upgrading the whole bike, except the frame, to 2023 spec? If possible. Would be interesting to see
Then it would not be retro. You could put carbon fiber wheels and an ultraight fork on the budget bike, but then it would not be budget.
I think that if they were to change just the front end of the Scott to a 27.5 inch wheel and suspension fork combination it would improve its abilities against the modern bike. I've been adding those changes to my own retros with very nice results. Such as: Better rollover and slacker head angle. A sort of resto-mod, I suppose 😊
The tiered should have been fresh for a fair comparison
I would say that the components on the older bikes are very good, the main difference is in the wheel size - i built a good 26er a while back and rode it, I loved it, but I jumped to 27.5 and felt it straight away
I have 3 road bikes....2 Cannondales ...early 90s 3.0 Criterium Frames, and a early/ mid 2000sFuji Team SL....all aluminum....
My single mountain bike is a 2001Specialixed Stumpjumper Pro....it is never leaving my possession....Made in the USA...fairly light and fast as all frig, I rode it for two seasons while I was getting my Fuji back in shape....the Stumpjumper was so fast on my usual loop in Brooklyn (Prospect Park) that I wasn’t in such a rush🤷🏻♂️....the Fuji’s drive side crank arm (carbon FSA) had pedal threads that I destroyed with my MASSIVELY POWERFUL legs😂😂...and a long cage rear derailleur that I wanted to swap for the correct short cage....Campy Chorus 10 speed.....I’m not so obsessed or enamoured with the current shift in overall upgrades across the board that I’m thinking about buying in
Finally a bike i actually own, the Onna obviously. I use it as a trail with 2x drive, dropper, short stem and riser bars, lots of fun.
Nice! I also own the Onna. Which stem (length) and rise bar do you use? Did you remove the spacers or did you simply replace the handlebars? Thank you! 😊
@@stefanschmal8984 I use a 35mm stem i had laying around and a 70mm ergotec riser bar (i have back problems and i need to be a little more upright than usual)
@@XeviSi great, thank you! 😊
I instantly regretted changing to 1x for 2x. My XT 8000 2x shifted perfectly and never dropped the chain (ok it happened once). My eagle XX1 drops the chain pretty rarely, but it’s not any better than the 2x was. Sure the 1x is a little lighter but the lower gears and higher gears on the 2x makes it faster for XC type riding.
Vintage is the 88 Stumpjumper I first bought, friction,rigid,skill. Love what riders are accomplishing today, but vintage isn't 15 years old, I am.
I noticed everytime Rich does an Budget vs Expensive Video. The "Budget" thing isn't exactly Budget. These days I can afford an bike like that but back when I couldn't and was someone looking for budget bikes I actually meant something below or around 500. I don't think people that type sonething like "best budget Mountainbike" in Google are looking for 1000€ bikes lol
I work with a guy that was interested in trying mountain biking until I told him he should spend at least $700 on a new bike. The prices are inflated, but anything under $500 is just not worth it. Although there are some Walmart bikes that come close.
The rider makes the bike.
custom hope carbon levers hahaha, dude those were just an option on the 07 mono mini lever, you can still buy them as spares. i have some on the mono m4's on the trek in the garage. recenty had to buy new brass barrels for them as the carbon wears the brass into an oval
I still use my '07 Rockhopper for XC and it's great, was first person in my club running a 1x10 setup on a HT back in '13 and thing is still a mountain goat!
Honestly think it's a coin flip between my '16 S-Works Stumpy and '09 Enduro Elite as the best bike I've ever run. I buy and build up older frames to my personal preference and only ever bought one new bike, a '15 roadie from Ribble that still gets all my road miles.
Nothing wrong with saving money using older tech!
That’s the point! XC MTBs wear out like hell in general compared to road bikes. Drivetrain suspension wheels etc it’s all consumable when you actually do some training!
GMBN tries to relate to its viewers mission impossible
gmbn are a marketing channel owned by discovery, it's no surprise they shoehorn in orbea or whatever every video 🤣
Imagine that! 3 chain rings being faster on the uphill, who would have thought?? Another reason why I prefer a 2 by over a 1 by drivetrain. 1 by just doesn't have the needed range for steep hills.
In the 90's we didn't have wide open, flowing, groomed trails. It was tight, technical, obstacle strewn SINGLE track. Narrow bars were narrow for a reason. You had to fit in a narrow trail. Granny gears were low for a reason."Twitchy" was necessary to navigate trails with ruts, roots, ROCKS, and actual difficult terrain. That magic carpet you get to ride will of course favor a long, low and slack modern bike.
I would think the results would be even more pronounced with FS trail bikes. Suspension and geo has come a LONG way.
Very nice video. I like seeing these comparisons. I'm a smaller rider and I like better the feeling on a 26 inch MTB.
I'm going to guess that the Scott could have been lighter with a set of carbon tubulars rather than the wheelset in the video. Of course, they make them for 29'ers today, you just need to find them. They're wonderful.
I started mtn biking in 1991 and have been amazed at the changes in geometry and tech. I think the best changes are, wider bars, longer reach, and droppers.
Not tubeless?
@maxx0r050 That also, don't know how I forgot that
@@johnnydoe66 decent disc brakes as well
29" (incl. boost hubs)!
I would like you see and do it on a proper old bike, an early 90s super MTB, fully rigid or some early hardtails, Tomacs Yeti and other classics
More of these videos! 🤘
I've had an old Cannondale beast of the east (don't know how old exactly, between 8x and 9x purple frame) which I thought was really good. Didn't come with disc brakes, but had adjustable forks and was veeeery light too. I really enjoyed riding that.
I have the same Spark LTD since 2008 ! ;) This Spark was sub 10kg in stock. With this fork and on the carbon wheels (1by) mine is sub 9kg.
Omg those welds on the Orbea are something else 🐛
Fun video. Good work on that. Kept it super simple and didn't take it to serious 🤙😂🤘
I would love to have a 2x on my enduro, i do not mind cable mess and more maintenance is so better to go uphill with 3x or 2x, i changed my canyon stoic and my gf avalanche to 2x both and we have more fun uphill.
I see 1x good just for e-bikes, wonder how pinion gearbox system works, would love to test that.
Wider bars and a mullet set up would make that Scott 100x more
Fun
that's a nice comparison, thanks for the video
I have two modern mtbs. Yesterday I ran my 2001 Jekyll with busted headshoknand still broke pr's
Fun video. My last MTB was a Giant Anthem Advanced with 26” wheels and really narrow bars. If I were to buy a new MTB anytime soon, it would have to be on the budget side.
Those bars are so narrow holy crap haha, I got into MTB around 2010 it's amazing to see how much the bike designs have changed top to bottom
makes me curious as to what the design philosophy was back then. narrower bars = more aero? Or had they just not got around yet to experimenting with wider bars for control?
Been riding since 1995. My quess is that climbing and sprinting ability controlled bar widths, which allows for more side to side swing while peddling out of the saddle on climbs and sprints. A plus since most riders were turning over 175mm cranks in those times.
Been riding mountains bikes since the mid-80s in the South, the narrow bars were required where we rode because the trails where true trails and were usually narrow. There was no grooming or cutting down trees, the actual "trail" a lot of times was only about a foot wide.@@BirdmanDeuce26
@@robertsonmw thank you! That makes a lot of sense
I've got a scott scale xc rc aged really well there's not much difference in my bike and the one in the video can 100% say that the nude shock is on another level with remote lock out you get 3 settings never had any issues old but gold
As a former SSer, I'd argue that the 1x was faster gearing on the climb because it forced you to go harder, where the 3x9 enabled you to be lazy.
3x9 enabled you to be lazy...would you like to comment on the ebike boom!!! lol
You might wanna reconsider using that acronym in this way
just get a single then and stop being lazy
It still doesn´t make sense if you can't maintain a smooth cadence.On my triple 9 I bareley used the granny ring now I do and my knees also thank me.
@@Roland26778 attacking and grinding a climb is much faster than smooth cadence. You might manage a smooth cadence attacking a road climb, but not off-road.
Great video with a great presenter 😃
The comparison we want is old DH bike vs modern trail bike.
I had exactly that Scott Spark!! Was an amazing bike!
I'd take my 2010 Scott Spark over that Onna any day of the week. Three rings rule :)
I own a 1999 Univega RAM full sus, which was pretty much top notch for your regular, average John Doe back then. It's in almost new condition, even the pads on the Magura Julie are still the first ones. While in no means comparable to the featured Scott, I prefer riding it over any midrange new bike anytime. It's my own little timecapsule that takes me back to when I first started riding, but couldn't afford more than a Marin hardtail
I just bought a giant xtc 2022 of ov eBay brand new £710 to say it’s not the best x country I’ve ever ridden is a understatement every bit of power you put in the pedals is paid of in massive quantities, when it comes to buying a bike think b4 you buy trail bikes are great but don’t buy one if all you ride is xc flat canal paths.
I didn't see too many technical upgrading between them. It's a race between 26 full suspension and 29 hardtail.
I love how retro music is 1980s, even when the bike is from about 2007.
I would take the 2008 Scott in a heartbeat! These “ modern “ bikes are nothing but a gimmick! I could go on and on about all the specs of each. Plus the cranks and rear derailleur on the scott are masterpieces. Even the suspension on the scott is still top of line. Just change a few components on the scott as it’s a timeless MTB!
The same I've found with my '06 Kona CoilAir ....
Do it with a 27,5 superbike from like 2010s against a bang for the Buck Modern
Sorry I'm completely new to the sport, but sub £1000 is budget?
I thought a good bike starts from 300-400? No? What a way to gatekeep the sport.
You really don't get something good for 300. Euro at least. New at least. The onna 50 - cheaper fork else same(?) Is down to 430ish though. N funnily enough the better fork can be bought for less than the difference of onna 50 to 10. That's nothing to do with gatekeeping just reality. Used a Scott Genius mc30 for jumps. Shouldn't have broke it. Xc bike n jumps well. Aaaanyway. Also jumped an old steel MTB. The landings were not that terribly harsh. You can still do some jumps n all kinds of trails on a really old cheap full steel MTB. Maybe try getting a 29 in front. or just really fat tyres.
I still have a 2009 Kona Dawg Supreme frame that i cant bring myself to depart with....the thing was an absolute beast on the downs....I now have a Whyte t130 set up 1x but i still miss the 2x 10 double and bash set up of the Kona
thinking about getting on Onna 50 or 40 on sale.They come with either 2x8 or 2x9.I have a spare XT rd m772 so I could use that and maybe convert my old triple Stylo chainset to double and bring some weight down off factory specs.Even if 29 wheels look huge they are the way to go over bumpy stuff and provide more grip on slippy climbs also better for mileage
That orbea is not a budget bike . Raleigh or a bottom budget carrera would have been the test haha . Great video
For a real budget capable hardtail I'd always say the Vitus Nucleus VR or VRS would be the one to beat.
i dont think a HT/FS is a fair comparison tbh. a full FS comparison would of been better
would be nicety see an apples-to-apples comparison (fullsus to fullsus)
Those Hope brakes are still monstrously powerful. I love the fact Hope has always offered immense power with sexy looks.
Mike's racing bike is a '98 team issue Sasquatch, hardtail; mine is a '96 team issue GT LTS thermoplastic carbon, full suspension (how I got so lucky to have owned not one, but TWO team issue GTs I'll never know. The broken one is a '92 LTS-3. Micro fractures all through the front triangle). At age 50, we still love those bikes. We love the narrower handlebars, the fact that we have to work to ride the bikes, rather than the bikes doing all the riding for us, and my suspension floats over stuff. We don't do hardcore downhill (anymore. Mike used to race road, DH and XC), mostly cross-country with some techy stuff, but we love the ride. We do have a question though, Rich. You're doing a test of XC bikes yet you didn't take them cross-country. Why?
I expect the Scott felt very unusual to someone that is used to riding bigger wheels, wider bars and slacker head angle and you aren't going to be able to just jump on set good times. If I look at my old Strava times for when I was regularly riding 26" I don't really see a massive difference to what I'm doing now. Sure, my bikes are more comfortable and stable now but not really faster.
A more interesting comparison would be an early 29er compared to something current. My 2011 Scott Scale was fantastic and I only changed it because I wanted a bolt through rear axle
I have a 2004 carbon Trek fuel 100 I love it it climbs great
3X ain't dead!
I just in March finished a frame-up build on a 2008 Specialized Epic Marathon 26" (very direct competitor to the Spark) for about $1100. I went with Deore 2x10 instead of 1x to save some money, otherwise it's all "second from top" of the line mostly. I much prefer it to my 2021 Stumpjumper Elite HT.
That was a bit like me riding my 2008 Rockhopper against my son and his 2022 Commencal Clash…
$1000 is hardly “budget.”
The Spark with 700c x 38mm wheels and drop bars makes for an absolutely bonkers gravel bike. Had one, rode it until it cracked.
I bet that rocked
So the 3X helped ay? What happened to all this 1x is the way forward? And you're a fit rider. Old guys like me need 3x,that's why I never converted.
This is making me hurt. I'm only 30 and yes, MTBs have evolved, but something from 2008 is now considered retro, old, vintage whatever.
great music choice
I would like the modern hardtail with a triple set-up.
And here I thought we were going to see the Herbold Kamikazi downhill bike with 2” of front suspension. How did they do it back in the day?!