My freshman year of high school, 1996, I joined the football team because I overheard my parents arguing one night when they thought I was sleeping. My dad was trying to tell my mom that I needed to start growing up and showing some masculinity because all I did was tinker with my computer and play video games all day and night. I went on to have a successful career as a technical consultant for a web applications company. But that freshman year of high school I endured the embarrassment of being terrible at sports to try and be more masculine for my father. Shortly after high school before pursuing a career in computers, I joined the Air Force for a lot of the same reasons. I didn't make it though basic training. Even as a child in elementary school, my dad made me play little league baseball and take karate lessons and all that stuff boys are supposed to do instead of what I wanted to do which was take apart my Nintendo and my Apple IIe to see how they worked. What's my point? I dunno. It just seemed relevant to the conversation.
Your comment is absolutely relevant. The Air Force is a weird culture. It’s a service that desperately wants to be a macho, co-equal military branch while actually being a gentler, hotel-demanding corporation. As someone who didn’t quite fit in to the wannabe macho side, I hid a lot about who I was just to survive my time. You should be commended for not allowing the Air Force to change you, because it’s a noble idea to just be yourself and not conform to what other people want you to be.
@@scottcampbell96 Thank you for saying that. Even 20 years later I still look back on that experience and think ...I was such a wimp. Why didn't I stick it out? They'd bring in 10 "flights" of kids - 50 kids to a flight - every six weeks or so. They'd sort though them and find the ones that didn't fit their idea of what a person in the Air Force should be. They'd collect those people in a holding tank dorm until there was enough of us to make it financially viable to ship us all home at once. I sat in that holding "flight", which is sorta like the Air Force version of a platoon, for 8 weeks. So I spent more time at Air Force basic than most people spent at Marines basic. Anyway, most of the kids in that holding flight with me were there for doing dumb stuff like trying to leave base or smuggling in cigarettes or weed. A lot of them said they just told their security clearance interviewer that they lied to their recruiter and on their entrance application about their past. That was enough to get them shipped home. A lot of them were lying about lying just because they didn't like it and wanted to go home. Me? I got called out twice by my drill instructor for writing lyrics to some of my favorite songs inside my classroom notebooks. Air Force basic is 30% classroom work and 70% physical. I think that's part of the reason it gets the nickname "chair force". Any-damn-way (I got way off topic there) the lyrics I was writing was a way for me to cope and stay focused and stay connected to who I was before I joined. That was *not* cool with them. So they sent me to the base psychologist who interviewed me. He recommended me for a medical desperation under the assumption that if they didn't send me home, I'd probably become deeply depressed and even suicidal. So, of course, I'm sobbing my eyes out during this interview with the psychologist and he leaves the room for a minute. He comes back and tells me they're sending me home and I just sit there, continuing to sob. He says something like, "What's wrong now?" I didn't understand so I hesitated and as if he read my mind he said, "Usually we see a big change in demeanor when we tell someone they're going home. Most people are very happy to hear this." I said one thing, "I'm not looking forward to telling my dad." He sighed and nodded as if he understood completely what had happened. So, then I get sent to the holding flight until there's enough of us to fill a bus to the airport. It was a little like the movies when guys in prison ask, "What are ya in for." It surprised me that I was the only one there for not confirming but now that I think about it, we all were, regardless of the reason. Also, instead of going to church in Sundays as an atheist just to get a reprieve from the bullshit, I had to go to the psychologist every Sunday until I went home to make sure I wasn't going to kill myself on the Air Force's watch.
@@xliquidflames ah, yes, church. I’m an atheist, too. I was a chapel guide in basic just to get out of the dorms. Being an atheist at church became a game of “spot the other atheists” while pretending to bow your head. It was a game with the game of BMT. I can understand the emotion of being told you’re “not one of us”, but non-conformists get more out of life when we don’t hold ourselves back. It sucks that they held you in limbo for that long.
Parents think they can mod their children like clay into their image when they can't. The time period your dad grew up there wasn't much to do besides go outside and play sports. It is around mid 80s the 90s when the personal computer and video games became mainstream. You simply had more things you could do with your time now than your dad did back when he was a kid.
I'm sorry you weren't supported and accepted more by your parents (not cool) but I'm super happy to hear you still followed your interests & found success for yourself despite them ❤
I'm a man and I feel fine. I play video games, work on computers, go fishing and hunting, work in tech... And think Josh Hawley is a ridiculous mess that takes advantage of insecure men. Josh Hawley, perpetuating his own bizarre brand of shame culture.
Yea….A lot of this is his personal problems. Most men just do things they like and get on just fine spiritually and personally. But all this political intellectual postulating on masculinity, Does not really exist in the lives of most men.
Completely missed the opportunity for the best transition of all time: "So, speaking of monsters that suck the energy right out of you, Josh Hawley..."
Adam's commentary on the Pick-up Artist community really resonated with me. They're one of the few groups of people that actually *teach* social skills, and approach them as skills that can be practiced and improved. The first time I heard that perspective was a real paradigm shift for me; although fortunately I heard that perspective from Dr. Nerdlove (a "reformed" PUA) rather than directly from that toxic culture.
There are definite legitimate ways that people can use. Unfortunately, there are people who give bad, sexist advice like “negging”. Women don’t like being insulted. I actually take things literally. If someone says they’re interested, they are. If someone says they aren’t or insults you, they don’t like you.
Yeah, when I was in my early 20s I dipped my toe in PUA stuff for a little bit. The more misogynistic content creeped me out and I was never comfortable with it. I never consciously "negged" for instance. But trying out PUA absolutely DID improve my social and conversational skills. It's hard to overstate the value of having someone sit you down and explain how conversations and social dynamics work - if you're a young social incompetent like I was. It's just...kinda terrible that the pieces of genuine advice are wrapped up in a really misogynistic interpretation of those dynamics.
Nerdlove tried to cater to the pc feminist crowd and got canceled for his past behavior while trying to play this reformed guy that only has the right pc way to do things.
It's hard to argue with the assertion that someone is an "Alpha" or "Beta" because they're completely made up archetypes. It's like calling someone a warlock or a vampire. It's a social role-play that people buy into cause it gives them a social ruleset to aspire to. It's nonsense.
@@LustStarrr I do know that the powerful and competent male gets all the pussy. Whether you want to call him the alpha or something else is up to you, but that's a fact.
I've been cishet my entire life. People still say I give off "gay vibes" and they openly question my sexuality because I don't like to hit on women, overtly, especially when I'm at work. When people learn to mind their own, we'll be able to live peacefully with each other.
“Boys are given computer toys…” AND TIME! Growing up in the 80s and 90s, friends of mine were cleaning the house and babysitting and kept busy in a million ways, while their brothers sat for hours playing Nintendo and being served. Girls just didn’t (and don’t) have the spare time to enjoy games designed specifically to take up time.
Oh, man. That Black Friday take just made me realize what a nightmare its going to be. I mean, we've already been seeing people losing their shit in just NORMAL retail environments because they've forgotten how to behave in a society during the lockdowns, and it's not like Black Friday makes people act BETTER than normal.
Judging by past Black Fridays and all the pre-Covid Karen videos, people didn't know how to behave well in public even before the pandemic. Now they seem completely unhinged, especially on planes and in queues.
Hawley, to me, is one of the most self disconnected snobs in Congress and really has no authority to expound his dry, detached and removed sense of what a man really should be.
When did loneliness become the property of men. The obvious measures of maleness should be abilities to relocate spiders to outdoors, trash removal and chauffeuring. Thanks Jon, another enjoyable show.
Ahhh yes we definitely need more hard men who can't hold hands or be emotional. Who else will steamroll people in business or politics? I mean we need that alpha male at the head of the country and the boardroom to make sure shit gets done correctly right? How could a man who paints his fingernails and holds his friends hands ever be a good person?
@@ellagage1256 It's better than having a nail-painting fruitcake leading a country against any country which has an emotionally suppressed sociopath in power. Like, I dunno, China, maybe.
He and Joe weren't talking past each other. Joe asked him simple questions about his thoughts on injecting kids with hormones and he wasn't able to give Joe a straight answer 🤷♂️
I do believe that reclaiming masculinity is important. However, the problem is that many of these politicians and personalities who often push for a "return to manliness" are the very types who tortured masculinity into a caricature in the first place. No, we must go further back in time than the 80's. We need to embrace our natural, biological roots and instincts, and align them with modern values in a way that makes sense for ourselves and our counterparts. That's a very deep and nuanced exploration that I will never turn to Josh Hawley in order to receive guidance.
Manliness is whatever an individual man defines it to be. Trying to abide and shape yourself into some standard isn't being "manly" its conformity, which will almost certainly make you miserable and insane in some way.
The zoomers are redefining this, it was amazing to watch some of the biggest twitch streamers doing a drag show, kissing their fellow streamers, etc. last month at Shitcamp. They just don't care about this shit and it's so refreshing.
@@sigmascrub Even with so much vitriol being thrown at them from the right, they really are brave. As a millenial I feel like my high school experience was more like my parents' than it was people 5-10 years younger than me. I'm jealous.
@@samus598 That's been my conclusion as well. Our generation spends so much time masking ourselves behind layers of irony but the thing I admire most about zoomers is that they're so much more emotionally aware and ready to be personally authentic. Even when they're annoying me, they're still being themselves and that's great.
Jon I love seeing you in the same space with your guest and having a 'connected' conversation. We see the real from both of you this way. There's just no replacing the way people can respond to each other in person vs through the keyhole of the internet. You're as adorable as ever too, which is good.
I remember in the 80s (maybe 70s) the author Robert Bly talked a lot about masculinity. I read Iron John and found it a really interesting idea for how to be ANY gender. Kind guidance can help a lot of humans understand their whole self.
Growing up it struck me as such a glaringly foolish idea- that only boys played video games. Marketers, who were supposedly the best as making money, were deliberately ignoring HALF of the population? Drove me crazy but I just assumed it was the way things were or some crap. These roles they jam us into to make money, even they have no idea what they are doing.
B.S! My4 year old niece is NOT an idiot; she PROUDLY & CONSCIENTIOUSLY wears her mask appropriately everywhere she goes & uses her hand sanitizer & doesn’t pick her nose or touch her face, just like her Auntie RN taught her…I can’t say the same for my 50+ year old patients, however…🤦♀️
What do you do when someone dismisses your concerns with "you hate men" or "you're a beta"? They say that to deflect, to disrupt the conversation, and to get the last word. What do you say or do to get around that and actually get somewhere?
You just disengage. They're not willing to approach the discussion with any level of intellectual honesty so continuing it just wastes your time and inflates their ego.
@@sigmascrub That's what I figured, unfortunately. It's all a waste of time, especially if there's an audience. Debates and discussions like this just become a performance or a competition to be won. Own the libs!
The thing that I've done (to mixed success), is use that attack as an avenue to highlight how ridiculous it is. As Adam says, a lot of the people buying into these ideas do so out of a pain/lack of tools, or a desire for what they perceive as community and respect. Highlighting that this method doesn't DO that can 'steal' their satisfaction, and (sometimes) lead to later reflection. Like, "You hate men" is, almost always, a laughable accusation. And you can straight up laugh at it. "Yeah, okay, I hate men. That's why I (point out obvious continual positive connection you have with men)." Highlight just how limited the "you hate men" 's IDEA of men is. What of men like (and I know some of the examples here have issues, but they do serve as LESS toxic ideals than the ones normally espoused by this group.) Terry Crews, The Rock, Thomas Jefferson, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr, Mr Rogers, Bob Ross, Chris Evans, Sir Ian McKellan, Benjamin Franklin, Stephen Hawking. Point out that what they're saying when they say "they don't want to do that", or don't want men to do that is either being afraid of people judging them (kinda beta, yeah?) or judging men. Of course, don't do ALL of this at once, but these kind of little hooks of "you're not thinking this through" set people up to convince themselves later. Similar thing with the "you're a beta": like, if you're a beta and your opinion doesn't matter...why are they trying so hard to win this argument? That sounds pretty emotionally needy. Or you can ask how, logically, society would have progressed to the point it's at now by the "alpha f*cks, beta bucks" paradigm they suggest: like, most of the "alpha" traits don't exactly lend themselves to, say, civic engineers, or food scientists. Which "alpha" invented the subway? Given the structure of society, doesn't it make more sense that the "betas" are the ones winning, and they just want to make sure they have a population of guys trying to be "alphas" to do the heavy labor and dangerous work they don't want to? Again, you shouldn't unload ALL of this, and how exactly you approach it should be shaped on your own personality/tone and the person you're talking to, but leaving a couple of these kind of "splinters of arguments" in their head can motivate them to dig into their beliefs on their own later. That's where they may change their mind. Personally, I typically play the "that doesn't seem very logical" (or its catty cousin "sarcastic agreement that highlights the flaw in the argument") card, because I do a LOT of reading in general (and LOOK like a very big, but indisputably masculine, nerd), so it plays better. And when it DOES disintegrate into "performance for the crowd"... I'm the dude with calm, composed paragraphs of counter-points, who seems amused or unimpressed, while the other side is repeating the same 3-4 points. That LOOKS like I'm 'winning'.
I really dislike that Lovett said "tradition style games" meaning shooters... As a woman who plays games, I do find it frustrating that most people consider "real games" to be just shooters and if I prefer something else it's not "hardcore" (even though I do play online shooters too) but prefer RPGs, side scrollers/platformers and adventure games
I'm an older man and I choose to be lonely. I like working on myself. Learning new stuff. Meditating. Making $. There are more types than Alpha and Beta, you know?
This is very resonant of Terry Real's work on male depression, & the way ton which men & boys are emotionally stunted by our societal attitudes - he's written about it in a number of his books, & there's numerous UA-cam videos & podcast episodes of him discussing it around, if anyone's interested hearing more about this topic.
I’m not even 3 minutes in and I already have to comment - as a you g girl I couldn’t hold my best friends hand in primary/elementary school without being called gay. This was 7th/8th grade. Back in the mid-eighties. We were only friends. We both dated boys (at that point it meant they walked you home, very non-sexual). But in any case, that homophobia was there early, and for any sign of affection towards the same sex, male or female.
It's weird that Adam says games were made into being masculine in the NES era as I grew up at that time and I found everyone played games back then... It started to peter off in SNES times and then it really made a switch when Xbox came out and there was a real focus on strong, male characters and shooters. I remember everyone playing contra back in the day but I think the difference is that these games were really targetting young boys and had a higher barrier to entry, so if you didn't jump on board to the 3D shooters early on it just became a larger and larger barrier so it just cut off a lot of women after a while
Thank you, Adam, for acknowledging that changing the clocks makes a difference in some areas. The farther you are from the equator, the more the difference. Miami, FL, has 13 hours, 45 minutes of daylight in summer and 10 hours, 30 minutes of daylight in winter. That’s only 3 1/4 hours difference throughout the year. Whereas Boston has 15 hours, 17 minutes of daylight in summer and 9 hours, 4 minutes of daylight in winter. That’s over 6 hours difference throughout the year. Where I am, either the sun would rise at 4 am and set at 7:20 pm in the summer (instead to 5 am/8:20pm), or the sun wouldn’t rise until after 8 am in the winter and set at 5:15 pm (instead of after 7 am/4:15 pm), if we *didn’t* change the clocks. Some high schoolers would be in school for about an hour before sunrise. If we could move high school start time later, then I’d be open to not change the clocks. I know the time change doesn’t make sense to southern states since there’s not much difference throughout the year.
There are a lot of people who grew up assured that a “manly” lifestyle and “manliness” signaling would be a good investment. But based on rapid changes in culture and the job market, it’s NOT paying off, and they feel cheated. Unless you’re fighting a war, street-fighting, playing sports, or dealing with a woman who is similarly invested in that paternalistic and often misogynistic culture, the whole macho thing is somewhat played-out. So now you have a few options - abandon/adjust your long-held beliefs and lifestyle and grow a man-bun, withdraw somewhat and find the [still sizeable] pockets of society who share your values, or (worst-case) find ways to force society back into situations that benefit your values and investments - from bullying to influencing rules and laws, to domestic terrorism that creates the dystopia you’ve been preparing for. They haven’t attained the dreams they were promised as almost a birthright, and now they refuse to, or can’t figure out how to, round the freaking corner. They’re Biff in Back to the Future, and they HATE the McFlys.
Based on the logic of Josh Hawley, playing video games makes you not a "real masculine" man🤔🤔🤔 Jokes on him, I'm a g@y man, which makes me a criminal in 70+ countries and also loves to play video games. Beat that Josh, I'm already an illegal person😂😂😂😂
Pretty is as pretty does.Be a good human being. Positive vibes from New Hampshire, remember to be kind to each other and yourself during this pandemic and social crisis
The alpha male was a misinterpretation of wolf behavior. I thought, we aren't wolves, they're a very different animal. I thought we should look at species that are closer to us, so I looked at Chimpanzees. Should have stuck with wolves.
"I blacked out during that conversation" What a weasley thing to say. So he either didn't engage fully while having the discussion or he feels pressured to worm his way out of the Rogan interview. Either way, Conover is not a good male role model.
Adam is a perfect ideologue. As long as he's not challenged on anything he says, he can read off his talking points and does great. If he does get challenged, he falls to pieces, takes it as a personal attack, then begins bad mouthing whoever it was that gave him any push-back to various echo chambers. And no, I didn't vote for Trump. And I'm gay. To Adam's crowd you have to give credentials to be allowed speak on any subject it feels like.
I’m a woman and I’m lonely. Why do people think women don’t get lonely? I think there is toxic masculinity AND toxic feminity. I actually have more male friends (gay and straight) than women. Most of my female friends are over 50 and super progressive/introverted. Women in society are expected to want children, act nurturing, have a high voice, wear makeup, be extroverted. I am none of these things and people ostracized me for it because I’m not “feminine” enough to have female friends. I wish someone would talk about that as well as toxic masculinity. Not sure why people only think men are suffering. More women lost their jobs because they are expected to be the caregivers and get paid less. Women lost the rights to their own bodies in Texas. They are expected to sacrifice their body for someone who isn’t a person yet. You know who are people? WOMEN. Texas doesn’t think so though. Yet, people are arguing about video games? Give me a break.
No one taught me how to talk to men. I have ASD1 and there are no resources in this country for adults diagnosed. There are even less for women. So, I’m sorry but men aren’t “suffering” more than women on this topic.
Given that men are less likely to graduate from high school, less likely to graduate from college, more likely to kill themselves, more likely to be imprisoned, more likely to be homeless, and die 7 years earlier on average, I think it's safe to say that men have a problem. It doesn't discount women's problems, but they still have problems worth addressing.
Gaymer here!! I also like eyes in the back of my head; not necessarily in god mode. I'm looking forward to getting whipped in Elden Ring, just like I did in Bloodborne and Dark Souls LOL. Thought I also mention that I have watched many conversations about male masculinity since the #MeToo movement and Justin Baldoni's Man Enough roundtable discussions are very insightful.
How come women are meant to cook at home, but only a man can cook in a restaurant? Double standards much. Love you Adam, come to the UK. My kids were shocked i knew who you were xx
Hey you forgot the most manly qualities of buying you presents, getting things off high shelves, opening jars, and taking out the trash. "Killing things" includes killing bugs. These are the things my sister told me men are good for.
Good for Adam, having conversations with people who agree with him since when he had to go to a actual debate with joe it was the most one sided debate I ever seen. He should have brought his writers, um uh um uh uh I'm not a expert um uh
My brother always took the atari. I beat him in a game, beat the crap out of the game. He then beat the crap out if me. He accused me of cheating cos he had had the atari and I hadn't. This was back in the 80s. I never played again. I used to love playing pac man. I played DnDs. I stopped after that. I was scared
Oh, crap, I've missed out on yet another problem. I'm a man and I feel fine. Maybe it's like the whole replacement thing. My cis-, white, male demog is totally being replaced. And I'm eager for it to take.
No one needs fancy dorms. I moved to apts because they were less expensive. I can’t live with my family because they are toxic and one is a narcissist. Not everyone has a nice family and college is the time you escape.
Adam those aren’t two different video game stories about the 80’s. That’s the beginning and end of a decade you’re talking about and skipping the almost complete game collapse due to ET that happened in the middle that forced Nintendo to rebrand as games being for kids. And from there it was an easy choice because “male” oriented toys had a bigger market share.
I was a little disappointed with Joe's interview with Adam. I think they were just having different conversations. Adam clearly wants men to be free to express a less masculine side ie being able to cook, expressing feelings of anguish, holding hands (ya great 🤨). These are all healthy things. When Joe says men need to man up, I think he's talking about something entirely different, he's referring to men being responsible for themselves & their families, ie get a job, pay child support, help his wife/partner buy & maintain a household. These are all necessary things that are not so much related to being masculine as they are to being a responsible adult. When a father tells his son I want you to be more masculine he's concerned with his son's ability to support himself & the son is usually preoccupied wondering why his father wants him to be good at football.
I'm sorry, but grouping Chapelle and Rogan with Josh Hawley does not make much sense to me. I see the very thin string you can run between them as they did here, but personally I think that's a pretty unfair and grouping
This is a complex issue with many nuances. I appreciate the dialogue between you two. The other side of the coin, however, is kindergartens and schools that don't tolerate the energy and activity level that young perfectly normal boys can have. That's possibly why we've statistically seen a tremendous spike in boys with "behavioural issues" getting medicated. I'd argue they are poorly raised, intelligent, bored or simply haven't reached a level of maturity that is expected at that stage. But instead it's branded as "toxic masculine" behaviour and presented as a wholly negative trait. The issue is best described as a spectrum, but biologically there IS a distinction between "typical" male and female behaviour. In humans and all around us in nature.
Can you provide references to some academic articles that substantively argue that rambunctious 5 year old boys are "toxically masculine"? I see this talking point alot and don't know where the evidence comes from. Yes, I think a bunch of young boys are treated unfairly due to the way our current early education system favors traits that are (usually) found in girls more than boys (using your "inside voice", being able to sit still for long periods of time, not roughhousing, etc.). I also think this is a product of both the overrepresentation of women in early childhood education and an increasingly punitive education system that time and time again will choose zero-tolerance policies and other punitive measures instead of understanding the nuanced and specific needs of each student. That being said, I'm unconvinced by assertions that this is the result of more people adopting an attitude that "toxic masculinity" is to blame for why young boys like to run around and play (also young girls like to run around, make messes too). I think it assumes feminist ideology having an impact larger than it actually does which tends to be the case when most of these conversations take place amongst the extremely polarized world of internet political debates.
@@bilaljones3635 I've seen the talking points too, and it really doesn't matter what you or I think, if misinformation about the subject is consumed and considered wholesale. My whole point is that it isn't based in science or fact. But it's a fair point. You're absolutely on the money with regards to "expected behaviour" in schools, but unfortunately that's used as an argument for promoting "feminine behaviour" in boys and thus fueling the talking points of the "cuck, soyboy, beta" yelling morons out there. The more academic research suggests that, in fact, boys age 7-10 are more visuo-spatial and tactile in their learning and that the current dogma of teaching is actually detrimental to their learning ability in the first years of school. The (increasingly) larger proportion of female Vs male university/college graduates seems to support this. Which again can provide fuel for the testosterone crowd if men are increasingly left behind in education. We should embrace these biological differences and harness them to maximize the potential of every individual. But I grant you, that maybe just providing good basic education/housing/diet/healthcare should be the priority...
@@Emanon... Ok, but there is a difference between academic research that suggests that current education practices disproportionately harm young boys and academic research that suggests it's because people find young boys inherently toxic. Studies that engage toxic masculinity are focused on things like men having smaller social circles than women or, during the beginning of the pandemic, (conservative) men being less likely to wear masks because they viewed mask wearing as looking "weak" and "unmasculine". As for bad faith arguments around these topics, I think too many people (be it progressives, teachers, academics, etc.) spend way too much time worrying about what the most reactionary, least charitable, and least empathetic people are thinking on a subject. So for me, I don't think it's any anyone's interest in trying to entertain the type of people who really think engaging in jargon like "beta cuck" is practical and instead more energy should be put in engaging people who want to have thorough, nuanced, empathetic conversations about what needs to be done to improve education for everyone.
@@bilaljones3635 let’s be honest here. When little girls act the way people think is “normal” for little boys to act (and they very much do so naturally, without adult intervention), they are very much harshly or firmly punished and “corrected” for not behaving the way a “young lady” should. I remember it myself. If boys behave poorly, it’s “boys will be boys”. We simply expect different standards of behaviour for little girls vs little boys. Parents don’t even realize they’re doing it.
At that age I’m pretty sure girls and boys all generally have the same energy level, but social expectations of gender are already informing how that presents. I think there needs to be serious consideration of how to make sure our schools are able to give all children an optimal learning experience. I can think of many girls from my school time or time babysitting that would benefit from more outlets for their energy
My freshman year of high school, 1996, I joined the football team because I overheard my parents arguing one night when they thought I was sleeping. My dad was trying to tell my mom that I needed to start growing up and showing some masculinity because all I did was tinker with my computer and play video games all day and night. I went on to have a successful career as a technical consultant for a web applications company. But that freshman year of high school I endured the embarrassment of being terrible at sports to try and be more masculine for my father. Shortly after high school before pursuing a career in computers, I joined the Air Force for a lot of the same reasons. I didn't make it though basic training. Even as a child in elementary school, my dad made me play little league baseball and take karate lessons and all that stuff boys are supposed to do instead of what I wanted to do which was take apart my Nintendo and my Apple IIe to see how they worked. What's my point? I dunno. It just seemed relevant to the conversation.
Your comment is absolutely relevant. The Air Force is a weird culture. It’s a service that desperately wants to be a macho, co-equal military branch while actually being a gentler, hotel-demanding corporation. As someone who didn’t quite fit in to the wannabe macho side, I hid a lot about who I was just to survive my time. You should be commended for not allowing the Air Force to change you, because it’s a noble idea to just be yourself and not conform to what other people want you to be.
@@scottcampbell96 Thank you for saying that. Even 20 years later I still look back on that experience and think ...I was such a wimp. Why didn't I stick it out?
They'd bring in 10 "flights" of kids - 50 kids to a flight - every six weeks or so. They'd sort though them and find the ones that didn't fit their idea of what a person in the Air Force should be. They'd collect those people in a holding tank dorm until there was enough of us to make it financially viable to ship us all home at once. I sat in that holding "flight", which is sorta like the Air Force version of a platoon, for 8 weeks. So I spent more time at Air Force basic than most people spent at Marines basic. Anyway, most of the kids in that holding flight with me were there for doing dumb stuff like trying to leave base or smuggling in cigarettes or weed. A lot of them said they just told their security clearance interviewer that they lied to their recruiter and on their entrance application about their past. That was enough to get them shipped home. A lot of them were lying about lying just because they didn't like it and wanted to go home. Me? I got called out twice by my drill instructor for writing lyrics to some of my favorite songs inside my classroom notebooks. Air Force basic is 30% classroom work and 70% physical. I think that's part of the reason it gets the nickname "chair force". Any-damn-way (I got way off topic there) the lyrics I was writing was a way for me to cope and stay focused and stay connected to who I was before I joined. That was *not* cool with them. So they sent me to the base psychologist who interviewed me. He recommended me for a medical desperation under the assumption that if they didn't send me home, I'd probably become deeply depressed and even suicidal. So, of course, I'm sobbing my eyes out during this interview with the psychologist and he leaves the room for a minute. He comes back and tells me they're sending me home and I just sit there, continuing to sob. He says something like, "What's wrong now?" I didn't understand so I hesitated and as if he read my mind he said, "Usually we see a big change in demeanor when we tell someone they're going home. Most people are very happy to hear this." I said one thing, "I'm not looking forward to telling my dad." He sighed and nodded as if he understood completely what had happened. So, then I get sent to the holding flight until there's enough of us to fill a bus to the airport. It was a little like the movies when guys in prison ask, "What are ya in for." It surprised me that I was the only one there for not confirming but now that I think about it, we all were, regardless of the reason. Also, instead of going to church in Sundays as an atheist just to get a reprieve from the bullshit, I had to go to the psychologist every Sunday until I went home to make sure I wasn't going to kill myself on the Air Force's watch.
@@xliquidflames ah, yes, church. I’m an atheist, too. I was a chapel guide in basic just to get out of the dorms. Being an atheist at church became a game of “spot the other atheists” while pretending to bow your head. It was a game with the game of BMT.
I can understand the emotion of being told you’re “not one of us”, but non-conformists get more out of life when we don’t hold ourselves back. It sucks that they held you in limbo for that long.
Parents think they can mod their children like clay into their image when they can't. The time period your dad grew up there wasn't much to do besides go outside and play sports. It is around mid 80s the 90s when the personal computer and video games became mainstream. You simply had more things you could do with your time now than your dad did back when he was a kid.
I'm sorry you weren't supported and accepted more by your parents (not cool) but I'm super happy to hear you still followed your interests & found success for yourself despite them ❤
Let's not forget that Josh Hawley is a traitor and his opinions are irrelevant. Like every Saturday, thank you all for this. Love it! ❤️
100% bet he has a pencil
@@marydupree27 a limp pencil.
@@charlesgallagher1376 you mean he can't even rim the hole?
I'm a man and I feel fine. I play video games, work on computers, go fishing and hunting, work in tech... And think Josh Hawley is a ridiculous mess that takes advantage of insecure men.
Josh Hawley, perpetuating his own bizarre brand of shame culture.
Yea….A lot of this is his personal problems. Most men just do things they like and get on just fine spiritually and personally. But all this political intellectual postulating on masculinity, Does not really exist in the lives of most men.
Completely missed the opportunity for the best transition of all time: "So, speaking of monsters that suck the energy right out of you, Josh Hawley..."
Michaela Watkins is never ever ever not hilarious and clever and comely and huggable and exquisite. Mkay?
Too many people worried about being masculine or feminine enough and not enough worried about being human.
Adam's commentary on the Pick-up Artist community really resonated with me. They're one of the few groups of people that actually *teach* social skills, and approach them as skills that can be practiced and improved. The first time I heard that perspective was a real paradigm shift for me; although fortunately I heard that perspective from Dr. Nerdlove (a "reformed" PUA) rather than directly from that toxic culture.
There are definite legitimate ways that people can use. Unfortunately, there are people who give bad, sexist advice like “negging”. Women don’t like being insulted. I actually take things literally. If someone says they’re interested, they are. If someone says they aren’t or insults you, they don’t like you.
Yeah, when I was in my early 20s I dipped my toe in PUA stuff for a little bit. The more misogynistic content creeped me out and I was never comfortable with it. I never consciously "negged" for instance. But trying out PUA absolutely DID improve my social and conversational skills.
It's hard to overstate the value of having someone sit you down and explain how conversations and social dynamics work - if you're a young social incompetent like I was. It's just...kinda terrible that the pieces of genuine advice are wrapped up in a really misogynistic interpretation of those dynamics.
Nerdlove tried to cater to the pc feminist crowd and got canceled for his past behavior while trying to play this reformed guy that only has the right pc way to do things.
Dr Nerdlove is great.
@@ProfDCoy same experience for me. I thought the negging thing was too rude. I tried it once and never bothered again.
It's hard to argue with the assertion that someone is an "Alpha" or "Beta" because they're completely made up archetypes. It's like calling someone a warlock or a vampire. It's a social role-play that people buy into cause it gives them a social ruleset to aspire to. It's nonsense.
And don't forget the du jour male type - sigma males (which are an equally fictional concept, obviously)... 🤦🏼♂️
And then they made up omega males so the beta males would accept themselves as beta. Its a fictitious hierarchy for men to put each other down.
It seems you know next to nothing about vertebrates, evolution or evolutionary psychology.
@@dannyarcher6370 - & I suppose you do?
@@LustStarrr I do know that the powerful and competent male gets all the pussy. Whether you want to call him the alpha or something else is up to you, but that's a fact.
I've been cishet my entire life.
People still say I give off "gay vibes" and they openly question my sexuality because I don't like to hit on women, overtly, especially when I'm at work.
When people learn to mind their own, we'll be able to live peacefully with each other.
“Boys are given computer toys…” AND TIME! Growing up in the 80s and 90s, friends of mine were cleaning the house and babysitting and kept busy in a million ways, while their brothers sat for hours playing Nintendo and being served. Girls just didn’t (and don’t) have the spare time to enjoy games designed specifically to take up time.
Getting Sam Sanders and Adam Conover, hell yeah
Oh, man. That Black Friday take just made me realize what a nightmare its going to be. I mean, we've already been seeing people losing their shit in just NORMAL retail environments because they've forgotten how to behave in a society during the lockdowns, and it's not like Black Friday makes people act BETTER than normal.
Judging by past Black Fridays and all the pre-Covid Karen videos, people didn't know how to behave well in public even before the pandemic. Now they seem completely unhinged, especially on planes and in queues.
Based Comrade Adam!
Hawley, to me, is one of the most self disconnected snobs in Congress and really has no authority to expound his dry, detached and removed sense of what a man really should be.
He's such a phony.
When did loneliness become the property of men. The obvious measures of maleness should be abilities to relocate spiders to outdoors, trash removal and chauffeuring. Thanks Jon, another enjoyable show.
Ahhh yes we definitely need more hard men who can't hold hands or be emotional. Who else will steamroll people in business or politics? I mean we need that alpha male at the head of the country and the boardroom to make sure shit gets done correctly right? How could a man who paints his fingernails and holds his friends hands ever be a good person?
I know right? How could an emotional man in touch with his feelings possibly empathize with humanity at all? 😏
@Dr. Buster Cheeks, Vaccinologist Stanford Yeah that's an awful idea... the last thing we need is another emotionally suppressed sociopath in power
Now we're getting somewhere. It seems there's light at the end of the tunnel with you dweebs.
@@ellagage1256 It's better than having a nail-painting fruitcake leading a country against any country which has an emotionally suppressed sociopath in power. Like, I dunno, China, maybe.
@@dannyarcher6370 Seriously how do you plan on relating to the people when you consider anybody that isn't hyper masculine lesser in some way?
He and Joe weren't talking past each other. Joe asked him simple questions about his thoughts on injecting kids with hormones and he wasn't able to give Joe a straight answer 🤷♂️
I do believe that reclaiming masculinity is important. However, the problem is that many of these politicians and personalities who often push for a "return to manliness" are the very types who tortured masculinity into a caricature in the first place. No, we must go further back in time than the 80's. We need to embrace our natural, biological roots and instincts, and align them with modern values in a way that makes sense for ourselves and our counterparts. That's a very deep and nuanced exploration that I will never turn to Josh Hawley in order to receive guidance.
Great episode 👏
Manliness is whatever an individual man defines it to be. Trying to abide and shape yourself into some standard isn't being "manly" its conformity, which will almost certainly make you miserable and insane in some way.
there's guidelines
I can't believe Adam didn't use the Smash Brothers defense in the totally zero consequence merger hot take.
I was there, I watched both of these men play Sekiro.
Aw man..the story about the cooking set is so heartbreaking
I hope less and less ppl experience that as the years go by
The zoomers are redefining this, it was amazing to watch some of the biggest twitch streamers doing a drag show, kissing their fellow streamers, etc. last month at Shitcamp. They just don't care about this shit and it's so refreshing.
Agreed. I'm so happy for this generation. They're not afraid to be themselves unapologetically.
@@sigmascrub Even with so much vitriol being thrown at them from the right, they really are brave. As a millenial I feel like my high school experience was more like my parents' than it was people 5-10 years younger than me. I'm jealous.
@@samus598 That's been my conclusion as well. Our generation spends so much time masking ourselves behind layers of irony but the thing I admire most about zoomers is that they're so much more emotionally aware and ready to be personally authentic. Even when they're annoying me, they're still being themselves and that's great.
Jon I love seeing you in the same space with your guest and having a 'connected' conversation. We see the real from both of you this way. There's just no replacing the way people can respond to each other in person vs through the keyhole of the internet. You're as adorable as ever too, which is good.
I remember in the 80s (maybe 70s) the author Robert Bly talked a lot about masculinity. I read Iron John and found it a really interesting idea for how to be ANY gender. Kind guidance can help a lot of humans understand their whole self.
Growing up it struck me as such a glaringly foolish idea- that only boys played video games. Marketers, who were supposedly the best as making money, were deliberately ignoring HALF of the population? Drove me crazy but I just assumed it was the way things were or some crap. These roles they jam us into to make money, even they have no idea what they are doing.
Oh my God I didn't know I could love John Lovett more until he started talking about souls games. A true king among men
Thank you for this conversation. This is a conversation we should constantly be having right now.
Nah, we should be telling boys that acting like girls is a bad thing. Don't be a little pussy.
B.S! My4 year old niece is NOT an idiot; she PROUDLY & CONSCIENTIOUSLY wears her mask appropriately everywhere she goes & uses her hand sanitizer & doesn’t pick her nose or touch her face, just like her Auntie RN taught her…I can’t say the same for my 50+ year old patients, however…🤦♀️
Stop the child abuse of her....she doesn't need that...pretty evil to mask her
Such good guests!!!
What do you do when someone dismisses your concerns with "you hate men" or "you're a beta"? They say that to deflect, to disrupt the conversation, and to get the last word. What do you say or do to get around that and actually get somewhere?
You just disengage. They're not willing to approach the discussion with any level of intellectual honesty so continuing it just wastes your time and inflates their ego.
@@sigmascrub That's what I figured, unfortunately. It's all a waste of time, especially if there's an audience. Debates and discussions like this just become a performance or a competition to be won. Own the libs!
Say, "take your shoe horn and your false dichotomy offa".
The thing that I've done (to mixed success), is use that attack as an avenue to highlight how ridiculous it is. As Adam says, a lot of the people buying into these ideas do so out of a pain/lack of tools, or a desire for what they perceive as community and respect. Highlighting that this method doesn't DO that can 'steal' their satisfaction, and (sometimes) lead to later reflection.
Like, "You hate men" is, almost always, a laughable accusation. And you can straight up laugh at it. "Yeah, okay, I hate men. That's why I (point out obvious continual positive connection you have with men)." Highlight just how limited the "you hate men" 's IDEA of men is. What of men like (and I know some of the examples here have issues, but they do serve as LESS toxic ideals than the ones normally espoused by this group.) Terry Crews, The Rock, Thomas Jefferson, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr, Mr Rogers, Bob Ross, Chris Evans, Sir Ian McKellan, Benjamin Franklin, Stephen Hawking. Point out that what they're saying when they say "they don't want to do that", or don't want men to do that is either being afraid of people judging them (kinda beta, yeah?) or judging men. Of course, don't do ALL of this at once, but these kind of little hooks of "you're not thinking this through" set people up to convince themselves later.
Similar thing with the "you're a beta": like, if you're a beta and your opinion doesn't matter...why are they trying so hard to win this argument? That sounds pretty emotionally needy. Or you can ask how, logically, society would have progressed to the point it's at now by the "alpha f*cks, beta bucks" paradigm they suggest: like, most of the "alpha" traits don't exactly lend themselves to, say, civic engineers, or food scientists. Which "alpha" invented the subway? Given the structure of society, doesn't it make more sense that the "betas" are the ones winning, and they just want to make sure they have a population of guys trying to be "alphas" to do the heavy labor and dangerous work they don't want to?
Again, you shouldn't unload ALL of this, and how exactly you approach it should be shaped on your own personality/tone and the person you're talking to, but leaving a couple of these kind of "splinters of arguments" in their head can motivate them to dig into their beliefs on their own later. That's where they may change their mind. Personally, I typically play the "that doesn't seem very logical" (or its catty cousin "sarcastic agreement that highlights the flaw in the argument") card, because I do a LOT of reading in general (and LOOK like a very big, but indisputably masculine, nerd), so it plays better. And when it DOES disintegrate into "performance for the crowd"... I'm the dude with calm, composed paragraphs of counter-points, who seems amused or unimpressed, while the other side is repeating the same 3-4 points. That LOOKS like I'm 'winning'.
Ask him how that makes him feel and walk away while he disintegrates. Not a joke.
I really dislike that Lovett said "tradition style games" meaning shooters... As a woman who plays games, I do find it frustrating that most people consider "real games" to be just shooters and if I prefer something else it's not "hardcore" (even though I do play online shooters too) but prefer RPGs, side scrollers/platformers and adventure games
I thought video games were too violent...what's more manly than that?
Snaps to Adam for the Harold and the Purple Crayon name check.
Teach humans to not feel sad, and you get a lot of angry humans
God I love Adam Conover and I am so happy my man is so much like him. That’s exactly the type of man for me.
I'm an older man and I choose to be lonely. I like working on myself. Learning new stuff. Meditating. Making $. There are more types than Alpha and Beta, you know?
Loved the Ms. Pat nod "f* them kids"
This is very resonant of Terry Real's work on male depression, & the way ton which men & boys are emotionally stunted by our societal attitudes - he's written about it in a number of his books, & there's numerous UA-cam videos & podcast episodes of him discussing it around, if anyone's interested hearing more about this topic.
It was Nintendo that went super hard in creating the perception that video games were for boys.
Lol, I literally posted that right before he said it.
Remember when back in the day when video games lead to violence.....now its not manly.....lol
This is the best Lovett or leave it EVER
I’m not even 3 minutes in and I already have to comment - as a you g girl I couldn’t hold my best friends hand in primary/elementary school without being called gay. This was 7th/8th grade. Back in the mid-eighties. We were only friends. We both dated boys (at that point it meant they walked you home, very non-sexual). But in any case, that homophobia was there early, and for any sign of affection towards the same sex, male or female.
It's weird that Adam says games were made into being masculine in the NES era as I grew up at that time and I found everyone played games back then... It started to peter off in SNES times and then it really made a switch when Xbox came out and there was a real focus on strong, male characters and shooters. I remember everyone playing contra back in the day but I think the difference is that these games were really targetting young boys and had a higher barrier to entry, so if you didn't jump on board to the 3D shooters early on it just became a larger and larger barrier so it just cut off a lot of women after a while
Yay for the Raygun sweatshirt!
Thank you, Adam, for acknowledging that changing the clocks makes a difference in some areas. The farther you are from the equator, the more the difference. Miami, FL, has 13 hours, 45 minutes of daylight in summer and 10 hours, 30 minutes of daylight in winter. That’s only 3 1/4 hours difference throughout the year. Whereas Boston has 15 hours, 17 minutes of daylight in summer and 9 hours, 4 minutes of daylight in winter. That’s over 6 hours difference throughout the year.
Where I am, either the sun would rise at 4 am and set at 7:20 pm in the summer (instead to 5 am/8:20pm), or the sun wouldn’t rise until after 8 am in the winter and set at 5:15 pm (instead of after 7 am/4:15 pm), if we *didn’t* change the clocks. Some high schoolers would be in school for about an hour before sunrise. If we could move high school start time later, then I’d be open to not change the clocks.
I know the time change doesn’t make sense to southern states since there’s not much difference throughout the year.
So maybe I am a Beta. But I'm rocking it.
Same. Positive vibes from New Hampshire,remember to be kind to each other and yourself during this pandemic and social crisis
There are a lot of people who grew up assured that a “manly” lifestyle and “manliness” signaling would be a good investment. But based on rapid changes in culture and the job market, it’s NOT paying off, and they feel cheated. Unless you’re fighting a war, street-fighting, playing sports, or dealing with a woman who is similarly invested in that paternalistic and often misogynistic culture, the whole macho thing is somewhat played-out. So now you have a few options - abandon/adjust your long-held beliefs and lifestyle and grow a man-bun, withdraw somewhat and find the [still sizeable] pockets of society who share your values, or (worst-case) find ways to force society back into situations that benefit your values and investments - from bullying to influencing rules and laws, to domestic terrorism that creates the dystopia you’ve been preparing for. They haven’t attained the dreams they were promised as almost a birthright, and now they refuse to, or can’t figure out how to, round the freaking corner. They’re Biff in Back to the Future, and they HATE the McFlys.
So cool to see Adam on the show!!!!
Lol Michaela nailed that shit.
The most pressing issue of our time! Pornography and video games! Ahh!
Based on the logic of Josh Hawley, playing video games makes you not a "real masculine" man🤔🤔🤔
Jokes on him, I'm a g@y man, which makes me a criminal in 70+ countries and also loves to play video games. Beat that Josh, I'm already an illegal person😂😂😂😂
Josh Hawley talking about masculinity.... while obviously wearing makeup 🤔
men can wear makeup too
@@telectronix1368 Not unless they wear flowery hats, it's a requirement!
@@tomasmundo3367 -flowery-
feathery
Pretty is as pretty does.Be a good human being. Positive vibes from New Hampshire, remember to be kind to each other and yourself during this pandemic and social crisis
The alpha male was a misinterpretation of wolf behavior. I thought, we aren't wolves, they're a very different animal. I thought we should look at species that are closer to us, so I looked at Chimpanzees. Should have stuck with wolves.
"I blacked out during that conversation" What a weasley thing to say. So he either didn't engage fully while having the discussion or he feels pressured to worm his way out of the Rogan interview. Either way, Conover is not a good male role model.
Adam is a perfect ideologue. As long as he's not challenged on anything he says, he can read off his talking points and does great. If he does get challenged, he falls to pieces, takes it as a personal attack, then begins bad mouthing whoever it was that gave him any push-back to various echo chambers.
And no, I didn't vote for Trump. And I'm gay. To Adam's crowd you have to give credentials to be allowed speak on any subject it feels like.
I am NOT a fan of gaming. But to suggest that gaming is "turning men soft" is preposterous. Utterly ridiculous.
“If you’re hot and shitty, then you’re just a waste of hotness.” 👏💯🤣
I’m a woman and I’m lonely. Why do people think women don’t get lonely? I think there is toxic masculinity AND toxic feminity. I actually have more male friends (gay and straight) than women. Most of my female friends are over 50 and super progressive/introverted. Women in society are expected to want children, act nurturing, have a high voice, wear makeup, be extroverted. I am none of these things and people ostracized me for it because I’m not “feminine” enough to have female friends. I wish someone would talk about that as well as toxic masculinity. Not sure why people only think men are suffering. More women lost their jobs because they are expected to be the caregivers and get paid less. Women lost the rights to their own bodies in Texas. They are expected to sacrifice their body for someone who isn’t a person yet. You know who are people? WOMEN. Texas doesn’t think so though. Yet, people are arguing about video games? Give me a break.
No one taught me how to talk to men. I have ASD1 and there are no resources in this country for adults diagnosed. There are even less for women. So, I’m sorry but men aren’t “suffering” more than women on this topic.
Given that men are less likely to graduate from high school, less likely to graduate from college, more likely to kill themselves, more likely to be imprisoned, more likely to be homeless, and die 7 years earlier on average, I think it's safe to say that men have a problem. It doesn't discount women's problems, but they still have problems worth addressing.
Rogan is a fool like always !
Rogan is horrible.
Going to the Beacon on Friday👏👏👏👏🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️
You're in for a great show! Have fun!
Loving the Raygun hoodie! Pew Pew from flyover country!
Gaymer here!! I also like eyes in the back of my head; not necessarily in god mode. I'm looking forward to getting whipped in Elden Ring, just like I did in Bloodborne and Dark Souls LOL. Thought I also mention that I have watched many conversations about male masculinity since the #MeToo movement and Justin Baldoni's Man Enough roundtable discussions are very insightful.
That was amazing. Hats off. Damn Guardian Ape.
That’s not the reason why under 5’s should not be allowed to fly :)
Oh shit. My poor manly hood is under attack. How can I deal with it. Oh wait I’m fine
DEMON SOULS IS PAINFUL!!!!
I have a 3 year old and yes Germ theory is way over her head.
How come women are meant to cook at home, but only a man can cook in a restaurant? Double standards much.
Love you Adam, come to the UK. My kids were shocked i knew who you were xx
Hey you forgot the most manly qualities of buying you presents, getting things off high shelves, opening jars, and taking out the trash. "Killing things" includes killing bugs. These are the things my sister told me men are good for.
Good for Adam, having conversations with people who agree with him since when he had to go to a actual debate with joe it was the most one sided debate I ever seen. He should have brought his writers, um uh um uh uh I'm not a expert um uh
Kevin from the Backstreet Boys is the ONLY answer
Is Hawley doing a way late Tipper Gore pick up?
I'm playing a video game right now!
My brother always took the atari. I beat him in a game, beat the crap out of the game. He then beat the crap out if me. He accused me of cheating cos he had had the atari and I hadn't. This was back in the 80s. I never played again.
I used to love playing pac man.
I played DnDs. I stopped after that. I was scared
Jon’s intro had me convinced this was going to be Hasan Piker.
From your childhood story, sounds to me that you seen cooking as fun.
Oh, crap, I've missed out on yet another problem. I'm a man and I feel fine. Maybe it's like the whole replacement thing. My cis-, white, male demog is totally being replaced. And I'm eager for it to take.
No one needs fancy dorms. I moved to apts because they were less expensive. I can’t live with my family because they are toxic and one is a narcissist. Not everyone has a nice family and college is the time you escape.
Standard time is superior. Fight me.
We should just keep falling back! Slowly have 12 noon be the middle of the night and then back to mid day and so on!!!
Chaos time!
@@Samantha_yyz I'm not gonna lie. I like this idea.
@@bwills4k honestly I kinda really do wish we just did this lol
Adam those aren’t two different video game stories about the 80’s. That’s the beginning and end of a decade you’re talking about and skipping the almost complete game collapse due to ET that happened in the middle that forced Nintendo to rebrand as games being for kids. And from there it was an easy choice because “male” oriented toys had a bigger market share.
I was a little disappointed with Joe's interview with Adam. I think they were just having different conversations. Adam clearly wants men to be free to express a less masculine side ie being able to cook, expressing feelings of anguish, holding hands (ya great 🤨). These are all healthy things. When Joe says men need to man up, I think he's talking about something entirely different, he's referring to men being responsible for themselves & their families, ie get a job, pay child support, help his wife/partner buy & maintain a household. These are all necessary things that are not so much related to being masculine as they are to being a responsible adult. When a father tells his son I want you to be more masculine he's concerned with his son's ability to support himself & the son is usually preoccupied wondering why his father wants him to be good at football.
48k views, 1.2k likes, 200 comments.
UA-cam, please bring back the dislike count. All I want for Christmas is to laugh at these clowns.
✊🏼✊🏼
rogan 11 million..you guys 250,000..game over
Sexier than Timothée Chalamét? Nah....
Adam didn't blackout...he got owned the entire interview and was exposed as a grifter.
Sounds like a gateway to limiting the internet to the American public.
💙🍁💙
The limpness of these wrists
I'm sorry, but grouping Chapelle and Rogan with Josh Hawley does not make much sense to me. I see the very thin string you can run between them as they did here, but personally I think that's a pretty unfair and grouping
2 beta males on display ...
2 betas discuss masculinity
After a few minutes I’ve decided to leave it
This is a complex issue with many nuances. I appreciate the dialogue between you two.
The other side of the coin, however, is kindergartens and schools that don't tolerate the energy and activity level that young perfectly normal boys can have. That's possibly why we've statistically seen a tremendous spike in boys with "behavioural issues" getting medicated.
I'd argue they are poorly raised, intelligent, bored or simply haven't reached a level of maturity that is expected at that stage. But instead it's branded as "toxic masculine" behaviour and presented as a wholly negative trait.
The issue is best described as a spectrum, but biologically there IS a distinction between "typical" male and female behaviour. In humans and all around us in nature.
Can you provide references to some academic articles that substantively argue that rambunctious 5 year old boys are "toxically masculine"? I see this talking point alot and don't know where the evidence comes from.
Yes, I think a bunch of young boys are treated unfairly due to the way our current early education system favors traits that are (usually) found in girls more than boys (using your "inside voice", being able to sit still for long periods of time, not roughhousing, etc.). I also think this is a product of both the overrepresentation of women in early childhood education and an increasingly punitive education system that time and time again will choose zero-tolerance policies and other punitive measures instead of understanding the nuanced and specific needs of each student.
That being said, I'm unconvinced by assertions that this is the result of more people adopting an attitude that "toxic masculinity" is to blame for why young boys like to run around and play (also young girls like to run around, make messes too). I think it assumes feminist ideology having an impact larger than it actually does which tends to be the case when most of these conversations take place amongst the extremely polarized world of internet political debates.
@@bilaljones3635 I've seen the talking points too, and it really doesn't matter what you or I think, if misinformation about the subject is consumed and considered wholesale. My whole point is that it isn't based in science or fact. But it's a fair point.
You're absolutely on the money with regards to "expected behaviour" in schools, but unfortunately that's used as an argument for promoting "feminine behaviour" in boys and thus fueling the talking points of the "cuck, soyboy, beta" yelling morons out there.
The more academic research suggests that, in fact, boys age 7-10 are more visuo-spatial and tactile in their learning and that the current dogma of teaching is actually detrimental to their learning ability in the first years of school. The (increasingly) larger proportion of female Vs male university/college graduates seems to support this. Which again can provide fuel for the testosterone crowd if men are increasingly left behind in education.
We should embrace these biological differences and harness them to maximize the potential of every individual.
But I grant you, that maybe just providing good basic education/housing/diet/healthcare should be the priority...
@@Emanon... Ok, but there is a difference between academic research that suggests that current education practices disproportionately harm young boys and academic research that suggests it's because people find young boys inherently toxic. Studies that engage toxic masculinity are focused on things like men having smaller social circles than women or, during the beginning of the pandemic, (conservative) men being less likely to wear masks because they viewed mask wearing as looking "weak" and "unmasculine".
As for bad faith arguments around these topics, I think too many people (be it progressives, teachers, academics, etc.) spend way too much time worrying about what the most reactionary, least charitable, and least empathetic people are thinking on a subject. So for me, I don't think it's any anyone's interest in trying to entertain the type of people who really think engaging in jargon like "beta cuck" is practical and instead more energy should be put in engaging people who want to have thorough, nuanced, empathetic conversations about what needs to be done to improve education for everyone.
@@bilaljones3635 let’s be honest here. When little girls act the way people think is “normal” for little boys to act (and they very much do so naturally, without adult intervention), they are very much harshly or firmly punished and “corrected” for not behaving the way a “young lady” should. I remember it myself. If boys behave poorly, it’s “boys will be boys”. We simply expect different standards of behaviour for little girls vs little boys. Parents don’t even realize they’re doing it.
At that age I’m pretty sure girls and boys all generally have the same energy level, but social expectations of gender are already informing how that presents. I think there needs to be serious consideration of how to make sure our schools are able to give all children an optimal learning experience. I can think of many girls from my school time or time babysitting that would benefit from more outlets for their energy
I'm still not really sure who Adam Conover is, I just kind of remember him as the guy who humiliated himself on the Joe Rogan show
I feel Lovett should have chosen someone who does not make straight women regret their orientation for the first convo.