Whenever you are given an instruction, especially as it relates to a landmark, you have to feel 110% confident you know EXACTLY what they are saying. Even 1% doubt is a reason to say you’re unfamiliar, or to ask for clarification.
Honest and forthright with no excuses. As I now rarely fly in crowded and busy airspace, I learned a couple of important things, too. Thank you, and Well done, sir!
This is the hallmark of a good aviator. There are two types of pilots: the pilot that makes mistakes and tries to deny and hide it, and the pilot that makes mistakes and owns it and tries to learn from it. The first type are a danger, the second type are a huge asset. Kudos to you sir and hope to see you around SoCal!
One thing on the the Brasher advisement and NASA report is that the NASA report is not a get out of jail card. Those two things are entirely separate and the report wont stop any action that the FAA takes on your certificate. The catch on the NASA report is that the report cannot be used against you in an action unless it is a criminal act. A suggestion is if you are unfamiliar with the area or in question, state "unfamiliar" and ask the controller for a heading. As someone else said here...be careful what you post on YT. There are people that will report what they think are violations and the FAA does investigate them
Great job and admitting and understanding what you did wrong. You certainly did the right thing by Fallon the air safety form. Hopefully you will not ever hear anything from it. However, with that being said, I’m not sure I would’ve posted this video, especially with a couple of the comments you made on the video which I won’t go into detail. Kinley Howard, CFII
I am glad you didn’t have any close approach to other aircraft and this was a learning experience without extreme danger. There are many freeways in the LA area, so it would be good to confirm if you are not sure which one ATC is telling you to follow with a heading or other information.
The SFV has very easy to follow freeway system unless you’re driving on them… 118 to the N runs east and west 134 to the south runs east to west and 405 to the near East , runs north to south and the 5 further east and parallel to the 405
I thought I was going to get one this past week flying out of a C. Dude had an attitude and had no idea why. Later I listened to the recordings and my CFI did too and said the controller was just mad in general most likely just stressed. But I always go back and review my flights to see how I can improve Thanks for the video
Great to learn from this - Mixing up a freeway. I am a brand new PP. It's seem easy to mistake one freeway from another. I know try to establish a second landmark and use forelight.
I fly out of KWHP and can attest to it being some tricky airspace to fly in. Just a few questions. First, when making the right downwind departure off of 12, the controller will typically instruct to “make the right downwind inside of the 5 freeway” to avoid busting KVNY airspace. Not sure how you confused the 5 and 405. And as far as flying the LA Special Flight Rules, the whole point of doing that is so we don’t have to contact ATC. After leaving WHP, transitioning VNY, keeping under BUR class C, and climbing over SMO class D, the only radio calls you should have to make all the way to AVX are position reports on the CTAF. Yes, it’s smart to get flight following after leaving the special flight rules, but not sure why you were advised to contact ATC when transitioning LAX.
I recorded radio communications, at least until my dashboard GoPro overheated. As you suggested, Whiteman Tower said, "Make a right downwind departure inside the 5 freeway." Whiteman Tower handed me off to Van Nuys Tower while turning from crosswind to downwind. I had requested the 405 corridor on initial call, and Van Nuys Tower responded, "Remain east of the freeway, 1,800, southbound transition approved." This exchange all happened while I was still on downwind at Whiteman. That "east of the freeway" instruction might have caused my confusion, as Van Nuys never used "405" until later. I reviewed the audio shortly after the flight, and focused on my "guilt." Your comment motivated me to make a more thorough review. I now feel a little vindicated, although part of radio communication is anticipating the next call, and I should have anticipated, "Remain east of the 405 freeway," and should have been more focused on what the likely flight path would look like. At the very least, I should have sought clarification of which freeway to stay east of. If this had been my first trip out of Whiteman, I would have flown exactly as I did and not felt like I made a mistake, because when Van Nuys said "east of the freeway," I was just turning to exit downwind to the west, and was staring right at "the freeway," which was the 5 freeway. The Whiteman Tower controller's advice to "talk to SoCal approach" is legit. I think the LAX VFR SFR allows transition when ATC is too busy for small airplanes. I told the Whiteman Tower controller that I had an experience where a Burbank controller was annoyed that I just didn't drop below class C and contact Van Nuys directly when approaching from the south. Whiteman tower said that I may have misunderstood the Burbank controller, because ATC benefits from "controlling" as many aircraft in the airspace as can be safely handled with equipment and staffing. I plan to bring this up at the next AOPA/Wings event that features ATC. I asked the CFI who conducted my flight review about this, and he said that the advice may vary by region, and that for the most part he felt like Houston controller's want to talk to you.
@RetreadPhoto The only pilot deviation was turning south when I was supposed to turn west while flying the right downwind for runway 12 at WHP. As far as I know, I did everything else correctly. For example, I communicated my destination (Avalon AVX) and route (405 corridor and LAX SFR). Because I communicated "405 corridor", I should have expected to stay east of the 405, not the 5, even though the controller said, "Remain east of the freeway," without a number designation. The correct thing for me would have been to reply, "Verify east of the 5 [emphasis on the number 5] freeway," if I thought that is what he meant and I recognized the freeway. Otherwise I should have said, "Verify I am over the 405 freeway," if I thought he was referring to the 405 freeway.
@RetreadPhoto I used Foreflight and GNS 430 moving map. Van Nuys instructed me to turn west into the class C while I was in the WHP ATA. The controller could have had me turn northwest and avoid the class C completely. It was very clear to me that the pilot deviation only covered a portion of the flight wholly inside the WHP ATA. The route of flight through class C is shown in the video. It is very unlikely that I conflicted with Burbank traffic, given altitude and distance from the BUR runway 08-26 flight path. I could have left out the additional conversation about where I was encouraged to talk to ATC rather than using the LAX SFR no-ATC procedure. This was unrelated to the deviation. The controller offered the advice based on the flow of the conversation, not related to the deviation. I thought it was interesting. I did not realize it would be interpreted as part of the deviation.
The whole area in Southern California is complex! Anyone taking it on alone is just asking for trouble. The best plan is to use SoCal Approach. That way you are talking to one entity and they can give vectors to keep you out of different airspaces. I would never trust myself to be able to pick out any freeway on my own. If anyone is going to fly in the Southern California area and are not used to the area it would be highly recommended to fly with a CFI first. Usually, when talking to tower giving a request for all departures is a good idea so that everyone is on the same page. Just remember that the whole area virtually all the way to Palm Springs is in the flight path of LAX. And they don't like rouge players in the system.
Good advice. I am still learning, but I will follow Whiteman Tower's advice about talking to ATC until I learn something better. I would like to add to your comment about Palm Springs. On the Los Angeles sectional, there is a frequency pop-up near Banning Pass telling you to contact SoCal Approach on 134.0. The frequency can be congested, but dodging airspace and airplanes is much more difficult than following ATC vectors. On my last trip coming from the east, the first freeway vector I received was from Burbank Tower, telling me to fly to and stay north of the 5 freeway. The 5 freeway is clearly marked in the vicinity of Burbank on the Los Angeles TAC. On the other hand, the 118, 101, and 405 freeways are not clearly marked in the vicinity of VNY-WHP-BUR. That is why I have handcrafted my own custom paper map to keep on my kneeboard while in the airspace. It is very simple, showing the freeways in relation to the 3 airports. It is one of the images shown in the video.
@@terrywoodfield4081 Yes, SoCal can be congested. That is why you want to be very concise in your phraseology. This is why I would go with a CFI if not familiar with flying in one of the most congested areas of the country. Usually, how I do it is: SoCal Approach, Mooney 5554Q is 5 miles West of Banning airport, level one-zero-thousand, request flight following to Santa Monica. Socal: Mooney 5554Q squawk 1234 Socal: Mooney 5554Q radar contact. Altimeter, 29.92 That easy! Now you are free to fly anywhere you want except Class B and any restrictions given. Many people are scared of ATC but with some practice a person will feel naked without it. And they can even save you from a violation. I once was flying a route that I have flown many, many, times. So much so that I had forgot that there was a little bit of Class B by Big Bear. I usually start descending after clearing the mountains but for some reason I stayed high this one night. Socal asked me if I wanted a clearance into the Class B. I said no and thanked him because I had forgot about that little area of class B. He saved me from a violation!
Thanks for this, appreciate your honesty, reminds me to check and double check VFR landmarks
It's videos like this that saves lives. Much respect for contributing content that makes the world a better place.
Whenever you are given an instruction, especially as it relates to a landmark, you have to feel 110% confident you know EXACTLY what they are saying. Even 1% doubt is a reason to say you’re unfamiliar, or to ask for clarification.
Honest and forthright with no excuses. As I now rarely fly in crowded and busy airspace, I learned a couple of important things, too. Thank you, and Well done, sir!
This is the hallmark of a good aviator. There are two types of pilots: the pilot that makes mistakes and tries to deny and hide it, and the pilot that makes mistakes and owns it and tries to learn from it. The first type are a danger, the second type are a huge asset. Kudos to you sir and hope to see you around SoCal!
I appreciate your comments. I'll be flying back next month, this time with custom maps highlighting all of the major freeways.
Born and raised in LA and learned to fly at WHP and I still get the freeways confused sometimes 😅
One thing on the the Brasher advisement and NASA report is that the NASA report is not a get out of jail card. Those two things are entirely separate and the report wont stop any action that the FAA takes on your certificate. The catch on the NASA report is that the report cannot be used against you in an action unless it is a criminal act. A suggestion is if you are unfamiliar with the area or in question, state "unfamiliar" and ask the controller for a heading. As someone else said here...be careful what you post on YT. There are people that will report what they think are violations and the FAA does investigate them
Great job and admitting and understanding what you did wrong. You certainly did the right thing by Fallon the air safety form. Hopefully you will not ever hear anything from it.
However, with that being said, I’m not sure I would’ve posted this video, especially with a couple of the comments you made on the video which I won’t go into detail.
Kinley Howard, CFII
I am glad you didn’t have any close approach to other aircraft and this was a learning experience without extreme danger. There are many freeways in the LA area, so it would be good to confirm if you are not sure which one ATC is telling you to follow with a heading or other information.
The SFV has very easy to follow freeway system unless you’re driving on them…
118 to the N runs east and west
134 to the south runs east to west and 405 to the near East , runs north to south and the 5 further east and parallel to the 405
I thought I was going to get one this past week flying out of a C. Dude had an attitude and had no idea why. Later I listened to the recordings and my CFI did too and said the controller was just mad in general most likely just stressed. But I always go back and review my flights to see how I can improve
Thanks for the video
Great to learn from this - Mixing up a freeway. I am a brand new PP. It's seem easy to mistake one freeway from another. I know try to establish a second landmark and use forelight.
I fly out of KWHP and can attest to it being some tricky airspace to fly in. Just a few questions. First, when making the right downwind departure off of 12, the controller will typically instruct to “make the right downwind inside of the 5 freeway” to avoid busting KVNY airspace. Not sure how you confused the 5 and 405. And as far as flying the LA Special Flight Rules, the whole point of doing that is so we don’t have to contact ATC. After leaving WHP, transitioning VNY, keeping under BUR class C, and climbing over SMO class D, the only radio calls you should have to make all the way to AVX are position reports on the CTAF. Yes, it’s smart to get flight following after leaving the special flight rules, but not sure why you were advised to contact ATC when transitioning LAX.
I recorded radio communications, at least until my dashboard GoPro overheated. As you suggested, Whiteman Tower said, "Make a right downwind departure inside the 5 freeway." Whiteman Tower handed me off to Van Nuys Tower while turning from crosswind to downwind. I had requested the 405 corridor on initial call, and Van Nuys Tower responded, "Remain east of the freeway, 1,800, southbound transition approved." This exchange all happened while I was still on downwind at Whiteman. That "east of the freeway" instruction might have caused my confusion, as Van Nuys never used "405" until later. I reviewed the audio shortly after the flight, and focused on my "guilt." Your comment motivated me to make a more thorough review. I now feel a little vindicated, although part of radio communication is anticipating the next call, and I should have anticipated, "Remain east of the 405 freeway," and should have been more focused on what the likely flight path would look like. At the very least, I should have sought clarification of which freeway to stay east of. If this had been my first trip out of Whiteman, I would have flown exactly as I did and not felt like I made a mistake, because when Van Nuys said "east of the freeway," I was just turning to exit downwind to the west, and was staring right at "the freeway," which was the 5 freeway.
The Whiteman Tower controller's advice to "talk to SoCal approach" is legit. I think the LAX VFR SFR allows transition when ATC is too busy for small airplanes. I told the Whiteman Tower controller that I had an experience where a Burbank controller was annoyed that I just didn't drop below class C and contact Van Nuys directly when approaching from the south. Whiteman tower said that I may have misunderstood the Burbank controller, because ATC benefits from "controlling" as many aircraft in the airspace as can be safely handled with equipment and staffing. I plan to bring this up at the next AOPA/Wings event that features ATC. I asked the CFI who conducted my flight review about this, and he said that the advice may vary by region, and that for the most part he felt like Houston controller's want to talk to you.
@@terrywoodfield4081 Maybe ask for clarification on what freeway to remain clear of. Never Assume.
@RetreadPhoto The only pilot deviation was turning south when I was supposed to turn west while flying the right downwind for runway 12 at WHP. As far as I know, I did everything else correctly. For example, I communicated my destination (Avalon AVX) and route (405 corridor and LAX SFR). Because I communicated "405 corridor", I should have expected to stay east of the 405, not the 5, even though the controller said, "Remain east of the freeway," without a number designation. The correct thing for me would have been to reply, "Verify east of the 5 [emphasis on the number 5] freeway," if I thought that is what he meant and I recognized the freeway. Otherwise I should have said, "Verify I am over the 405 freeway," if I thought he was referring to the 405 freeway.
@RetreadPhoto I used Foreflight and GNS 430 moving map. Van Nuys instructed me to turn west into the class C while I was in the WHP ATA. The controller could have had me turn northwest and avoid the class C completely. It was very clear to me that the pilot deviation only covered a portion of the flight wholly inside the WHP ATA. The route of flight through class C is shown in the video. It is very unlikely that I conflicted with Burbank traffic, given altitude and distance from the BUR runway 08-26 flight path.
I could have left out the additional conversation about where I was encouraged to talk to ATC rather than using the LAX SFR no-ATC procedure. This was unrelated to the deviation. The controller offered the advice based on the flow of the conversation, not related to the deviation. I thought it was interesting. I did not realize it would be interpreted as part of the deviation.
The whole area in Southern California is complex! Anyone taking it on alone is just asking for trouble. The best plan is to use SoCal Approach. That way you are talking to one entity and they can give vectors to keep you out of different airspaces. I would never trust myself to be able to pick out any freeway on my own. If anyone is going to fly in the Southern California area and are not used to the area it would be highly recommended to fly with a CFI first. Usually, when talking to tower giving a request for all departures is a good idea so that everyone is on the same page.
Just remember that the whole area virtually all the way to Palm Springs is in the flight path of LAX. And they don't like rouge players in the system.
Good advice. I am still learning, but I will follow Whiteman Tower's advice about talking to ATC until I learn something better.
I would like to add to your comment about Palm Springs. On the Los Angeles sectional, there is a frequency pop-up near Banning Pass telling you to contact SoCal Approach on 134.0. The frequency can be congested, but dodging airspace and airplanes is much more difficult than following ATC vectors. On my last trip coming from the east, the first freeway vector I received was from Burbank Tower, telling me to fly to and stay north of the 5 freeway. The 5 freeway is clearly marked in the vicinity of Burbank on the Los Angeles TAC. On the other hand, the 118, 101, and 405 freeways are not clearly marked in the vicinity of VNY-WHP-BUR. That is why I have handcrafted my own custom paper map to keep on my kneeboard while in the airspace. It is very simple, showing the freeways in relation to the 3 airports. It is one of the images shown in the video.
@@terrywoodfield4081 Yes, SoCal can be congested. That is why you want to be very concise in your phraseology. This is why I would go with a CFI if not familiar with flying in one of the most congested areas of the country.
Usually, how I do it is:
SoCal Approach, Mooney 5554Q is 5 miles West of Banning airport, level one-zero-thousand, request flight following to Santa Monica.
Socal: Mooney 5554Q squawk 1234
Socal: Mooney 5554Q radar contact. Altimeter, 29.92
That easy! Now you are free to fly anywhere you want except Class B and any restrictions given. Many people are scared of ATC but with some practice a person will feel naked without it. And they can even save you from a violation.
I once was flying a route that I have flown many, many, times. So much so that I had forgot that there was a little bit of Class B by Big Bear. I usually start descending after clearing the mountains but for some reason I stayed high this one night. Socal asked me if I wanted a clearance into the Class B. I said no and thanked him because I had forgot about that little area of class B. He saved me from a violation!