That's a great quote. The Breakfast Club? And Ferris Bueller for that matter while I'm thinking John Hughes. Those movies have a perfunctory plot at best. Doesn't matter.
Michael Westmore was the makeup artist for Star Trek: The Next Generation. He was nominated for a makeup Emmy every year from 1988 through 2005. That includes TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. He won the Emmy 5 times.
This is the run we meant when we said S3 get gud. It goes on for a long time. I like the Troi look, "He never has a second cup of coffee at home???" I try to define story as what happens, it's the 5 year old "and then..and then...and then..." Plot is what makes the pieces move.
I've always actually compared these shows/episodes. Me and my friends have done it for most of our lives. It's great fun to have those discussions and we all have our own favourites, highs and lows. I think it makes watching shows more enjoyable when you discuss them. It's what got me in to watching reactions :) I'm glad you're enjoying your Star Trek journey and doing your thoughts/discussion/analysis, you often notice things I haven't and that's great fun to get new stuff after all this time.
The thing with Beverely was kind of played down, but it was kind of a big deal. She confesses that she is attracted to Picard, but she doesn't initially take that step with him. When he asks her to dance, she lets her emotions and feelings take over from her logic. Her logic being that he is her commanding officer and her son's commanding officer. Ultimately, she's willing to go there, but what we see initially are her reservations based on their dynamic. It would be almost impossible for them to work together and be in a relationship and she isn't initially willing to give up on that work relationship. So no, I wouldn't say she was playing games, but the alien was. The alien was testing scenarios to see how people would respond to authority. In this case how romance would impact that. Once he got his answer, the experiment was over. Similarly, they were never ultimately going to put the ship in danger, they just wanted to see whether the crew would blindly follow orders.
I love how they could not get the Picard beta unit quite correct because it is probably what Picard would like to do but the real one is so reserved and guarded he would never do it.
I think this was another part of the experiment, how far could they push it before the crew calls a stop to "Picard" acting so out of character? The Alien would have risked killing itself going into that pulsar, and it doesn't seem they were willing to destroy the ship to prove a point. It stands to reason, if Riker hadn't told Wesley to belay the order, or Worf had taken Riker into custody, the imposter would still pull back somehow.
I'm so curious if you guys are starting to understand how we feel about season 1 and season 2 now. You're in the thick of the good stuff and it only gets better..
@@prion42This how I feel too. To be honest, though, I always liked 1&2 (being weakest of all the seasons, but maybe a couple of amazing Trek episodes with things like Measure of a Man) and I didn’t know the s1/2 “hate” until decades after I watched them.
@prion42 I had said, that if TNG had only lasted 2 seasons, people would remember fondly that Star Trek reboot from the 80's, and wonder why it was canceled, since it was pretty good and had a lot of potential! But like many shows, once it found its footing and took off, the first few seasons, even though not bad on their own, don't compare in quality to the later seasons when the formula is worked out, and the characters are fleshed out.
Then of course, after you've seen the successful version of the show, when you re watch the first season or first few seasons, those episodes seem clunky and disjointed by comparison.
As of right now, July 10 2024, there are 931 (edit) episodes of Star Trek, you have so far seen the 79 of TOS, the 22 of TAS, and 66 of TNG, for a total of 167, leaving just 732 to go! At 2 per week, you will finish in around July of 2031! But of course, that's not counting the stuff that comes out in the next 7 years 😂
I think this one maybe gets a little lost next to episodes with huge ongoing ramifications for characters, or the sheer spectacle of something like Yesterday's Enterprise, but it's just such a solid episode, and I enjoyed it more than ever on my recent rewatch. We all know Patrick Stewart is an amazing actor, but he's able to modulate imposter Picard from nearly normal to way out there, and that's on top of his continued excellence as real Picard in the other half of the episode. So good!
I'm someone who can enjoy both a novel premise and a well executed riff on an older idea. Whether the premise is something new or old, it takes creativity, skill, and effort to make a solid and unique exicution on that premise. I'm in university studying creative writing, and one of the best pieces of advice I recieved as a writer is to not worry about coming up with an original idea or premise to start writing. Sure, many people have done something based on "Cinderella" (for example), but none of them have told the story in the way YOU would tell it. So write the damn Cinderella story and see where it takes you!
Good job, again guys. It's really interesting seeing you react to these as they come out. I'll watch this episode if it's on, but it's not one of my go-to's. Hint: There are so many good episodes in this season that this one pales in comparison.
@@stopgeorge Picard S3 gets respect from me because Metalas backstabbed the people who have been wrecking Trek when they neglected to look over his shoulder at what he was doing. He made a dang good effort at resetting things closer to alignment with the Canon Timeline.
@@DiggitySlice Strange New World is top tier. Prodigy is top tier. Personally Lower Decks cracks me up! Are you even watching? There are definitely legitimate criticisms of Discovery but they tend to get swallowed up in the racism of the incels. But saying Strange New Worlds, Prodigy and Lower Decks aren’t good is just bonkers.
Glad you liked this one. After Yesterday's Enterprise, Offspring and Sins of the Father I was worried it would disappoint. I liked this one. My biggest complaint (it's still minor) is the line Picard says about "Cor Caroli V" early on felt like revealing their hand too soon.
Audiences back in the day often wouldn’t catch early dialogue clues like that since they also had to sit through at least 3 commercial breaks before the end of the episode.
I am a bit surprised you guys loved it as much as you did, I am all here for it though. I always liked this one, but it's easy for it to get a bit lost on the tail of the last three episodes. Though I would put this on the same level as Matter of Perspective, so it shouldn't come as to much of a surprise. As others have said, I think this episode gives us great insight into who Picard really is deep down. The replicant had all of his memories, and seemed to recognize the importance of some of them. But didn't really fully understand the motivations of other species. I think as an episode that sort of develops Picard's character out, that alone makes it great. But we get some fun moments out of it too. For next week, I am betting you guys liked Captain's Holiday. Maybe not quite as much as these last 5 episodes, but it's a fun episode I think. Tin Man will be a tougher one to say. It was an episode that stuck with me when I was younger for whatever reason. But I think I need to go back and rewatch it before I can make a judgement on that.
Yeah I wasn't sure if they'd like this one, it was a bit of a question mark for me. But I probably should've known. They like when the alien make-up is really good, they like when the main cast plays different characters, and they like Beverly. I'm also very curious about Tin Man. If they do like that one, the streak may very well go for quite a bit longer. There's only one near the end that maybe they'll think is just okay, but we could get pretty far into season 4 with this current streak.
This another one that’s a small surprise for me. I like this episode as a decent episode, but had never thought of it as being above average or even excellent, but that’s why I’m subbed to the channel. So fun to see what works or doesn’t for others.
It's sort of there in the middle of some of the best Star Trek in the whole franchise, and longtime fans are probably eager to get past this one while rewatching to get to their absolute favorites. I still really like this episode. I'm less enamored with the story in the escape room than they were, and I'm not entirely satisfied with the ending. But it's good.
4:39 Box looks like Lightwave's default "Turbulence" texture, just with more octaves in the remaster. It would've been "Video Toaster" at the time, and brand new, if so.
One of the best things about classic trek, from original to voyager, is that they take great premises and put them into Star Trek. Basically Star Trek can do any genre and put it in. I miss early TOS where it was basically the twilight zone on a space ship.
You laughed and rolled your eyes when we said wait till the back half of season 3. Yet here we are: hip deep in the back half of season 3 and were we wrong?! The ... Best is yet to come
6 місяців тому+2
years ago, 1970's i would get home from grade school, do my homework and then catch star trek TOS ... F FWD fifty years, i get home from %$#@ and watch star trek with the crew ! good times
Re-posted comment from last video If you want to see Picard dance, checkout the 1988 film Safehouse staring Patrick Stewart. He plays an aging man that is either a retired spy or a delusional old man. In the US it aired on Showtime. It may be a bit hard to find because of the 2012 Denzel Washington Ryan Reynolds film with the same name. It's a good mystery movie and has a great dance scene in it.
When I first saw this episode I was reminded of an old Twilight Zone episode called"Five Characters in Search of an Exit". I still wonder if that episode was on someone's mind when they came up with this storyline.
The twilight zone episode is an echo of an even older Pirandello play from the theatre of the absurd tradition: Six Characters In Search of an Author (1921)
Actually there may be more folks back in the day that compared what came before than you think. TOS syndication in the mid-70's was a huge new thing. Kids came home from school and watched Star Trek everyday, over and over. And TNG came out just as VHS recorders really became affordable and popular. I was taping every episode to send to my buddy stationed in Germany where it wasn't aired. He told stories of huge groups of people gathering to watch my tapes and asking when more were coming. So what you are doing is really quite historically accurate! Keep it up and keep comparing!
I’m glad when I first watched a show that I never caught the trailers. From what I recall, they played them during the commercial break before the last act. Back then, when there was a commercial break, you did something else like go to the bathroom or something.
14:34 - That is very interesting (And insightful!): I think that might just be why there has been some, let's call them, "disagreements" between which episodes of the series are considered classics by most TNG fans and what you guys find to be better episodes. I think for many of us long time fans, we look to intricate storyline, iconic/favorite characters and character moments and moral/ethical/philosophical undertones that make us think of humanity's situation in the real world; and so those episodes become sort of sacrosanct to the community. But if either or both of you are looking at execution of the TV show and how the directors, actors, editors or even writers deliver the show: Then THAT is an entirely different kettle of fish! And of course, a not-so-special storyline which is well executed might grip you more easily than a "thinker" of an episode or an action pack thriller which would have perhaps had to cut elements for time restrictions and badly cut the flow of the episode or illuminated a scene that would have better explained a plot point, etc. So, thanks for explaining that: I look forward to keeping those points in mind when trying to predict (For myself) whether or not the next episode will appeal to you guys regardless of how most TNG fans feel about it!*_
As one of the people who brought up the Rashomon similarity with Matter of Perspective - I don't think anyone was saying it was a bad episode (I know I wasn't) but you described it as "Brilliant" and one of the best (which is fine to feel that way). It was felt by some, if you were familiar with Rashomon, you probably would have still enjoyed the episode but wouldn't have thought it was brilliant or all that original - that doesn't make its bad it just puts it in...perspective :)
I also think a big issue, for me at least, with my lack of interest in that episode was how many different shows at the time were doing a similar story. I remember everything from L.A. Law to Melrose Place doing a similar themed episode at the time and there was fatigue over the whole concept. So when I realized Star Trek was doing basically the same thing my initial reaction as an eye roll and it never recovered from that first impression.
I 100% agree that the merit of an episode should be judged upon how well executed a concept is no matter how rehashed or fresh it is, and being Star Trek it has already set a high bar for itself since TOS. But there is something to be said for viewing an episode in the lens of its time. What we'd judge as good storytelling now or even merely adequate could have (and has) been considered stellar TV back in the 90s. And many stories sometimes feel like they could have been better if they had more time to flesh out, but they've only got ~40 minutes. There were just different standards back then. And even though Star Trek has its own bar which in many ways was above a lot of other TV shows even in the 90s, it was still held back a little compared with the quality of content we've gotten since the 90s. I'm not saying that you haven't necessarily been giving each episode its fair shake. Not by any means. I think for the most part I've agreed and resonated with your takes and impressions of each episode so far (save for maybe a few that are my personal favourites that you guys sometimes may have just downright trashed lol). I'm just throwing that out there.
16:44 I remember the big debate over Star Wars: The Last Jedi was kinda similar to what you're saying here with defenders of the film saying "oh the Themes the film was trying to convey were so good" & the counter was "well the film didn't execute those themes or basic aspects of story telling in a not good way"
The only thing that brings this episode down is this just happened in the Lonely Among Us, that is, the captain is clearly under an outside alien influence and yet when they realize it, despite going through the same thing just recently they still run around uncertain what to do. It took to the point of fake Picard pretty much ordering everyone commit suicide before they finally took some action. If the real Picard didn't show up who knows if they would have flown right into the pulsars to their deaths. Plus unlike in the Lonely Among Us, this Picard couldn’t shoot lighting bolts out of his fingers, so there’s nothing stopping them from putting him in the brig. You would think the Federation would have an SOP and some training on what to do in such a situation by now.
14:30 -- those are my feelings *exactly*, including 99.99% of "spoilers" for a story/movie/show, etc. I am always more concerned about _how_ the thing is presented/executed vs what, exactly, it's about or whether or not I'm spoiled. (Further context: I don't go out of my way for spoilers -- I do appreciate a good surprise -- but that's much less of interest to me if/when I am spoiled by happenstance so long as the thing, itself, is well executed.)
Interesting about "how well it's done." (although I'm trying to think of how Deja Q wasn't "done well" but I digress lol.) Pretty sure everyone does care about that. I do. Just maybe not quite as much on the top of their list? The premise and content matter a lot to me. So I hold an episode like A Matter of Perspective in SLIGHTLY less regard than you, since I'm not that interested in murder mysteries especially when we know there's no way the person did it. But an episode like Where No One Has Gone Before is fascinating to me, even though it's flawed, because it's exploring such mind blowing topics as going to/through other galaxies, how on earth was it accomplished, can we harness this again, what does this imply moving forward etc.
Just to repeat, Kolbe is pronounced Coal-buh, which rhymes with cobra. His ex, Kate Mulgrew, corrected an announcer or emcee at a Star Trek convention.
I agree that it’s about execution but a good message or an original idea will elevate an episode. The Offspring was executed well but it’s the messages about fatherhood and what rights do androids have that make the episode so good. And it was an original episode. I don’t recall seeing a story about a robot building a child before.
Alex and Josh, I'd agree with you! Definitely a streak. Can't happen forever, but this shows you how fans consider season 3 where it comes into its own, and really gets going. As a fan, I think fans saying 'season 3 is really good' maybe mis-characterized it for you guys. I think like I said (and hopefully you will agree) Season 3 is where it gets going. Not perfect by any stretch, but a big step up all around from 1 and 2. Would you say (at least thus far) that 70% of season 3 is good, even great, and 30% are mid, and even some not good. there are definitely more hits than misses. What do you think?
The point about the subject matter isn't about whether its good or bad. It's that if you are not familiar with the context you miss the nuance of the episode. And the reason people bring it up is that Star Trek is known for taking issues which are divisive in society as of the date they air them and getting people to focus on the issue. If society has moved passed that issue then it may hit differently.
Both are important. The best premise in the world cannot overcome a failure in execution, and the best execution in the world cannot overcome a failure in concept. That being said I'm usually more forgiving of a good idea when it fails than I am if it's a bad idea in the first place.
@@targetaudience It depends. That might be true for stand alone stories (maybe). I think it gets more complicated for a series. At some point the concepts for individual episodes become part of the overall execution of the series. Maybe I was being unfair saying "cannot". It might be more fair to say the worse the idea the more insane the execution needs to be.
For me, this episode has always fallen a bit flat, coming as it does on the heels of 3 iconic, game-changing episodes. It certainly has its moments, though. I particularly like the part at the end when Picard turns the tables on his captors, demonstrating in the process that he's capable of communicating very efficiently and effectively with his crew, even without the benefit of telepathy. Incidentally, the makeup supervisor for Star Trek TNG was Michael Westmore, and I just learned today that he and his team were nominated for an Emmy for this episode.
Despite our underwhelming opinion on The Doomsday Machine, Kirk trying to relieve Decker and put Spock in command over the communicator was one of the best scenes in all of Star Trek so far. I’d have to go with that, but this episode did it well too.
I’ve seen all of Star Trek (some of it too much) EXCEPT Enterprise. I have tried multiple times (even attended a friend party for series premier watch a few weeks after Sept 11,2001). I love trek and even Scott Bacula but I just can’t with that. I may be able to get as close as I ever have though by watching your journey through it. 🤣
I'm not as big a fan of this episode as you are. But it is emblematic of TNG's Season 3 - good ideas that are well executed. As you noted, they tried something like this in Season One's "Lonely Among Us," with Picard acting strangely and the crew having to react to it. But it works so much better here. Picard isn't suddenly acting bizarrely. He's just a bit off, and he steadily gets more so. It isn't until he puts the ship in actual danger that Riker steps in and takes over. And it's at that point, where the evidence is irrefutable, that the crew stands behind Riker. The plot with the real Picard and other prisoners is the weaker point for me, since the whole thing is so obviously a test that there's no real mystery. On a separate subject, credit must go again to Michael Westmore for his amazing makeup and design work.
I LOVE the next episode but I HIGHLY DOUBT they will put the next episode alongside Top Tier Trek. EVEN I wouldn't do that but the next episode is still great IMO.
This episode suffered from the fake Picard storyline feeling very similar to Lonely Among Us. The stories are quite different of course but they seem so similar you could interchange most of Picard's scenes between the two and it would make no difference, other then the uniform change.
I thought "A Matter of Perspective" didn't work because the audience is just too inclined to believe Riker, and it ends with "In fact, Riker was innocent!" I have no problem honouring Rashoman, but with a season 3 Riker as a possible murderer/sexual assaulter? Can't suspend my disbelief. If another series did a multiple perspectives episode in the first season with a character with a sketchier background, I think it'd work much better. But this episode - yeah, all the story beats and technical stuff (like makeup and camera) work well. But I find the pacing too slow, personally.
The disconnect You guys(Josh and Alex) feel sometime, is not just about story/plot/originality/importance/subtext vs execution...it's the level of execution you perceive and the qualities that you ascribe, that quite a few of your viewers(myself included) find incongruous with our views and opinions of the same subjects.
This episode shares similarities with the Twilight Zone episode Five Characters in Search of an Exit. I liked the concept, but felt the explanation didn’t work. The aliens possess the technology to create an almost-identical copy of Picard, so why do they need to kidnap him to study him? I thought the ending was weak.
I'm both surprised and not surprised at how well you liked this one. Looking back I get that it hits a lot of the checkboxes for storytelling and cinema, so that's probably what pushed it over for you. I enjoy this one, but it's not in the top episodes for me, even in just season 3. Maybe since you've already seen all of the season by now in real time, you get the point. I think what kill it for me is actually the ending, and how fake the alien capture feels, and how convenient it is to solve the problem of superior alien tech (they beamed him off the E!) by saying "we know who you are now". Great episode, just not the top for me.
I think the big difference between you and your viewers reactions to these episodes is that... We, as original fans of the series, we're sci-fi fans While you, reviewing these episodes are cinematic production fans We critique the story, while you are more focused on the presentation
Season 3 TNG is where the world building of Star Trek begins. From here until around the year 2000 was peak Trek (minus a few stinky episodes here and there)
Some episodes are great on your first watch but lose a bit of their charm on rewatches. I think Allegiance might one of those. When you strip away the mystery of these types of episode it's like viewing it through a different filter.
I was honestly not sure you'd like this one. For me, I can't get over the second hand embarrassment of Picard acting so....well, the way he does. But there's no doubt that the camera work and the make up effects are strong.
Guy seriously if you read these comments.....live stream the season finale please. I want to watch your minds blow. I will not tell you what happens, but if you think these episodes are good, and they are.....
There's a couple that might be just okay, for them. Possibly even three. But certainly there are no bad episodes left in the season. And season 4 is full of bangers, too.
Actually not one of my favorites. I disliked the "we just have tech that overcomes all your defenses" trope with no explanation. I know it is sci-fi but usually there is some kind of nod or technobabble to justify it. Especially because at the end they were able to easily trap the aliens. I also could not figure out what the hell the Picard imposter was doing ordering them into the pulsar. I am pretty sure he would have died as well. It made no sense. I am glad you all enjoyed it.
OK, I have to ask: What does the AI theme song say at that one point? "...on a cosmic journey feeling so ____." What is it? It sounds like "nence" to me, which is not a word. Am I mis-hearing it, or is that really a nonsense word? LOL Whatever. Not really important to me, I just wondered.
I laughed at first, because I thought you were joking. it sounded like the lyrics were saying Alex and Josh were feeling immense. I like Star Trek and all, but it rarely makes me feel immense. But I guess the idea is that the "journey" feels immense? (I guess if people rarely care about dangling participles anymore, why should AI? Ha.)
To your point, if TNG did a 12 angry men homage, having seen 12 angry men, I'm confident you would judge it on how well it executed the homage. So it's not necessarily did TNG do a take on vietnam, but how they did they take, and how relevant it was, which is why the experience is so different watching something 30 years later, because we're not talking about vietnam at all right now, but it was certainly relevant at the time. So much of star trek is attempting to tackle issues or subjects and sometimes it fails and sometimes it succeeds. I think it's hard to not look at it in that context. But I don't think anyone has ever praised Star Trek simply for taking on a subject. It's always been about how well they do it. Case in point the episode tackling the IRA is largely panned. So I think it's still about execution at the end of the day, but people really like TNG because it tackles a lot of things or does homages to a lot of other media and does it well.
The dynamic of the relationship between the captain and the doctor goes all the way back to the animated episode with Captain April Poole. Counterclock incident?
Roger Ebert said it best: “It's not what a movie is about, it's how it is about it.”
That's a great quote. The Breakfast Club? And Ferris Bueller for that matter while I'm thinking John Hughes.
Those movies have a perfunctory plot at best. Doesn't matter.
Unless it's about mostly white people now, that's profoundly frowned upon.
Michael Westmore was the makeup artist for Star Trek: The Next Generation. He was nominated for a makeup Emmy every year from 1988 through 2005. That includes TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. He won the Emmy 5 times.
Gentlemen, there will be so-so episodes,...that is unavoidable with any television show,...but there is also greatness yet to come.
A lot of greatness.
I just hope they feel the streak continues. Because I love the next episode.
You are now ready for the Dancing Picard short that was included as a DVD special. It's here on YT.
Makeup won an Emmy - it really was some of the best they ever did.
This is the run we meant when we said S3 get gud. It goes on for a long time. I like the Troi look, "He never has a second cup of coffee at home???"
I try to define story as what happens, it's the 5 year old "and then..and then...and then..." Plot is what makes the pieces move.
Lol! I see what you did there. ;)
I like my coffee black. Like my women.
OMG, we're old. There are NOT many people who are going to get that "never has a second cup of coffee" joke.
YOU JINXED IT! Now they will hate the rest! 😄
"...at least I'm married"
For me, this one was like, "Out of all the TNG episodes, this is one of them." You never know which ones a given person will connect with.
I've always actually compared these shows/episodes. Me and my friends have done it for most of our lives. It's great fun to have those discussions and we all have our own favourites, highs and lows. I think it makes watching shows more enjoyable when you discuss them. It's what got me in to watching reactions :) I'm glad you're enjoying your Star Trek journey and doing your thoughts/discussion/analysis, you often notice things I haven't and that's great fun to get new stuff after all this time.
That post credit bit
Better than Rick Roll
Glad they loved this episode! Surely they will enjoy the next one!
That Booker T bit caught me off guard XD
The thing with Beverely was kind of played down, but it was kind of a big deal. She confesses that she is attracted to Picard, but she doesn't initially take that step with him. When he asks her to dance, she lets her emotions and feelings take over from her logic. Her logic being that he is her commanding officer and her son's commanding officer. Ultimately, she's willing to go there, but what we see initially are her reservations based on their dynamic. It would be almost impossible for them to work together and be in a relationship and she isn't initially willing to give up on that work relationship.
So no, I wouldn't say she was playing games, but the alien was. The alien was testing scenarios to see how people would respond to authority. In this case how romance would impact that. Once he got his answer, the experiment was over. Similarly, they were never ultimately going to put the ship in danger, they just wanted to see whether the crew would blindly follow orders.
She tried to resist the Picard Manoeuvre but the rizz was too strong in him
Interesting. Also her question about whether he was playing games was spot on.
I’m so glad I always stay for the after credits scene, you guys are great haha..
Star Trek Next Generation season three LET’S GO!
Cosmic Journey!
This is a catchy tune :)
Post-credits: it took me a few seconds to process that it was you guys
I love how they could not get the Picard beta unit quite correct because it is probably what Picard would like to do but the real one is so reserved and guarded he would never do it.
I think this was another part of the experiment, how far could they push it before the crew calls a stop to "Picard" acting so out of character? The Alien would have risked killing itself going into that pulsar, and it doesn't seem they were willing to destroy the ship to prove a point. It stands to reason, if Riker hadn't told Wesley to belay the order, or Worf had taken Riker into custody, the imposter would still pull back somehow.
I'm so curious if you guys are starting to understand how we feel about season 1 and season 2 now. You're in the thick of the good stuff and it only gets better..
Watching these guys I feel we longtime fans have been unfairly dismissing season 1 and 2 just because s3 was so good.
@@prion42 yeah, I bet you're right
@@prion42This how I feel too. To be honest, though, I always liked 1&2 (being weakest of all the seasons, but maybe a couple of amazing Trek episodes with things like Measure of a Man) and I didn’t know the s1/2 “hate” until decades after I watched them.
@prion42 I had said, that if TNG had only lasted 2 seasons, people would remember fondly that Star Trek reboot from the 80's, and wonder why it was canceled, since it was pretty good and had a lot of potential!
But like many shows, once it found its footing and took off, the first few seasons, even though not bad on their own, don't compare in quality to the later seasons when the formula is worked out, and the characters are fleshed out.
Then of course, after you've seen the successful version of the show, when you re watch the first season or first few seasons, those episodes seem clunky and disjointed by comparison.
I'm right there with you on this episode. I don't hear it talked about as often, but i enjoy this episode every time.
Just going to throw it out there that with maybe one exception the rest of the season are all bangers
And I really like that exception! I always thought it was neat!
As of right now, July 10 2024, there are 931 (edit) episodes of Star Trek, you have so far seen the 79 of TOS, the 22 of TAS, and 66 of TNG, for a total of 167, leaving just 732 to go!
At 2 per week, you will finish in around July of 2031! But of course, that's not counting the stuff that comes out in the next 7 years 😂
The Orville after it all please ;-)
Now that I think about it, since "The Cage" isn't part of TOS episode count, there are an even 900 episodes. Shame the finale of STD was the 900th.
And of course the 14 Star Trek moves. Including the best one of all: Galaxy Quest! 🖖
and of course, 11 episodes of "Star Trek Continues" 🤣
Fun fact: Gene Roddenberry's son said he felt his dad would consider it canon.
Don't forget, "Short Treks" are canon too!
I think this one maybe gets a little lost next to episodes with huge ongoing ramifications for characters, or the sheer spectacle of something like Yesterday's Enterprise, but it's just such a solid episode, and I enjoyed it more than ever on my recent rewatch. We all know Patrick Stewart is an amazing actor, but he's able to modulate imposter Picard from nearly normal to way out there, and that's on top of his continued excellence as real Picard in the other half of the episode. So good!
I'm someone who can enjoy both a novel premise and a well executed riff on an older idea. Whether the premise is something new or old, it takes creativity, skill, and effort to make a solid and unique exicution on that premise. I'm in university studying creative writing, and one of the best pieces of advice I recieved as a writer is to not worry about coming up with an original idea or premise to start writing. Sure, many people have done something based on "Cinderella" (for example), but none of them have told the story in the way YOU would tell it. So write the damn Cinderella story and see where it takes you!
i love watching yall discover TNG
Good job, again guys. It's really interesting seeing you react to these as they come out. I'll watch this episode if it's on, but it's not one of my go-to's. Hint: There are so many good episodes in this season that this one pales in comparison.
We’re in the middle of a great golden period. There are others so don’t worry, it’s not all downhill from here!
@@DiggitySliceJeez, watch some Lower Deck, Strange New Worlds, or apparently Prodigy
@@DiggitySlice I would say Picard S3 is still downhill. Just not as steep.
@@DiggitySliceI agree with you on that.
@@stopgeorge Picard S3 gets respect from me because Metalas backstabbed the people who have been wrecking Trek when they neglected to look over his shoulder at what he was doing.
He made a dang good effort at resetting things closer to alignment with the Canon Timeline.
@@DiggitySlice
Strange New World is top tier. Prodigy is top tier.
Personally Lower Decks cracks me up! Are you even watching? There are definitely legitimate criticisms of Discovery but they tend to get swallowed up in the racism of the incels. But saying Strange New Worlds, Prodigy and Lower Decks aren’t good is just bonkers.
Now this one is my favorite version of COSMIC JOURNEY! The beats and bars sync up perfectly!!!
OMG... That ending tag.... babies...
Glad you liked this one. After Yesterday's Enterprise, Offspring and Sins of the Father I was worried it would disappoint. I liked this one. My biggest complaint (it's still minor) is the line Picard says about "Cor Caroli V" early on felt like revealing their hand too soon.
Audiences back in the day often wouldn’t catch early dialogue clues like that since they also had to sit through at least 3 commercial breaks before the end of the episode.
I am a bit surprised you guys loved it as much as you did, I am all here for it though. I always liked this one, but it's easy for it to get a bit lost on the tail of the last three episodes. Though I would put this on the same level as Matter of Perspective, so it shouldn't come as to much of a surprise. As others have said, I think this episode gives us great insight into who Picard really is deep down. The replicant had all of his memories, and seemed to recognize the importance of some of them. But didn't really fully understand the motivations of other species. I think as an episode that sort of develops Picard's character out, that alone makes it great. But we get some fun moments out of it too.
For next week, I am betting you guys liked Captain's Holiday. Maybe not quite as much as these last 5 episodes, but it's a fun episode I think. Tin Man will be a tougher one to say. It was an episode that stuck with me when I was younger for whatever reason. But I think I need to go back and rewatch it before I can make a judgement on that.
Yeah I wasn't sure if they'd like this one, it was a bit of a question mark for me. But I probably should've known. They like when the alien make-up is really good, they like when the main cast plays different characters, and they like Beverly.
I'm also very curious about Tin Man. If they do like that one, the streak may very well go for quite a bit longer. There's only one near the end that maybe they'll think is just okay, but we could get pretty far into season 4 with this current streak.
This another one that’s a small surprise for me. I like this episode as a decent episode, but had never thought of it as being above average or even excellent, but that’s why I’m subbed to the channel. So fun to see what works or doesn’t for others.
I like this one too guys. I think it's underappreciated by most fans though. Great reaction again.👍
It's sort of there in the middle of some of the best Star Trek in the whole franchise, and longtime fans are probably eager to get past this one while rewatching to get to their absolute favorites. I still really like this episode. I'm less enamored with the story in the escape room than they were, and I'm not entirely satisfied with the ending. But it's good.
4:39 Box looks like Lightwave's default "Turbulence" texture, just with more octaves in the remaster. It would've been "Video Toaster" at the time, and brand new, if so.
One of the best things about classic trek, from original to voyager, is that they take great premises and put them into Star Trek. Basically Star Trek can do any genre and put it in. I miss early TOS where it was basically the twilight zone on a space ship.
OMG, that post-credits! 😄
You laughed and rolled your eyes when we said wait till the back half of season 3. Yet here we are: hip deep in the back half of season 3 and were we wrong?! The ... Best is yet to come
years ago, 1970's i would get home from grade school, do my homework and then catch star trek TOS ... F FWD fifty years, i get home from %$#@ and watch star trek with the crew ! good times
There are a couple of upcoming season 3 episodes I can’t wait for you to see. One in particular.
cant wait until you get to the season climax, its going to blow your minds
Re-posted comment from last video
If you want to see Picard dance, checkout the 1988 film Safehouse staring Patrick Stewart. He plays an aging man that is either a retired spy or a delusional old man. In the US it aired on Showtime. It may be a bit hard to find because of the 2012 Denzel Washington Ryan Reynolds film with the same name. It's a good mystery movie and has a great dance scene in it.
Bit of BTS trivia… the Bolians are named for director Cliff Bole.
When I first saw this episode I was reminded of an old Twilight Zone episode called"Five Characters in Search of an Exit". I still wonder if that episode was on someone's mind when they came up with this storyline.
So it was actually Twilight Zone that invented the escape room😊?
The twilight zone episode is an echo of an even older Pirandello play from the theatre of the absurd tradition: Six Characters In Search of an Author (1921)
Actually there may be more folks back in the day that compared what came before than you think. TOS syndication in the mid-70's was a huge new thing. Kids came home from school and watched Star Trek everyday, over and over. And TNG came out just as VHS recorders really became affordable and popular. I was taping every episode to send to my buddy stationed in Germany where it wasn't aired. He told stories of huge groups of people gathering to watch my tapes and asking when more were coming. So what you are doing is really quite historically accurate! Keep it up and keep comparing!
I’m glad when I first watched a show that I never caught the trailers. From what I recall, they played them during the commercial break before the last act. Back then, when there was a commercial break, you did something else like go to the bathroom or something.
They’re all perfect episodes
Where did you get that video clip during your end credits of aft view of Enterprise D during warp? That is awesome
14:34 - That is very interesting (And insightful!): I think that might just be why there has been some, let's call them, "disagreements" between which episodes of the series are considered classics by most TNG fans and what you guys find to be better episodes. I think for many of us long time fans, we look to intricate storyline, iconic/favorite characters and character moments and moral/ethical/philosophical undertones that make us think of humanity's situation in the real world; and so those episodes become sort of sacrosanct to the community. But if either or both of you are looking at execution of the TV show and how the directors, actors, editors or even writers deliver the show: Then THAT is an entirely different kettle of fish! And of course, a not-so-special storyline which is well executed might grip you more easily than a "thinker" of an episode or an action pack thriller which would have perhaps had to cut elements for time restrictions and badly cut the flow of the episode or illuminated a scene that would have better explained a plot point, etc. So, thanks for explaining that: I look forward to keeping those points in mind when trying to predict (For myself) whether or not the next episode will appeal to you guys regardless of how most TNG fans feel about it!*_
I GOTTA know what that post-credit scene was about.
You're talking about the nostalgia people have from when they saw these episodes for the first time.
As one of the people who brought up the Rashomon similarity with Matter of Perspective - I don't think anyone was saying it was a bad episode (I know I wasn't) but you described it as "Brilliant" and one of the best (which is fine to feel that way). It was felt by some, if you were familiar with Rashomon, you probably would have still enjoyed the episode but wouldn't have thought it was brilliant or all that original - that doesn't make its bad it just puts it in...perspective :)
I also think a big issue, for me at least, with my lack of interest in that episode was how many different shows at the time were doing a similar story. I remember everything from L.A. Law to Melrose Place doing a similar themed episode at the time and there was fatigue over the whole concept. So when I realized Star Trek was doing basically the same thing my initial reaction as an eye roll and it never recovered from that first impression.
I 100% agree that the merit of an episode should be judged upon how well executed a concept is no matter how rehashed or fresh it is, and being Star Trek it has already set a high bar for itself since TOS. But there is something to be said for viewing an episode in the lens of its time. What we'd judge as good storytelling now or even merely adequate could have (and has) been considered stellar TV back in the 90s. And many stories sometimes feel like they could have been better if they had more time to flesh out, but they've only got ~40 minutes. There were just different standards back then. And even though Star Trek has its own bar which in many ways was above a lot of other TV shows even in the 90s, it was still held back a little compared with the quality of content we've gotten since the 90s. I'm not saying that you haven't necessarily been giving each episode its fair shake. Not by any means. I think for the most part I've agreed and resonated with your takes and impressions of each episode so far (save for maybe a few that are my personal favourites that you guys sometimes may have just downright trashed lol). I'm just throwing that out there.
I listened to this the first time around so I had to swing back around for the holodeck ending to see what was happening...
Omfg, beardless Josh!!!! 😳
16:44 I remember the big debate over Star Wars: The Last Jedi was kinda similar to what you're saying here with defenders of the film saying "oh the Themes the film was trying to convey were so good" & the counter was "well the film didn't execute those themes or basic aspects of story telling in a not good way"
The only thing that brings this episode down is this just happened in the Lonely Among Us, that is, the captain is clearly under an outside alien influence and yet when they realize it, despite going through the same thing just recently they still run around uncertain what to do. It took to the point of fake Picard pretty much ordering everyone commit suicide before they finally took some action. If the real Picard didn't show up who knows if they would have flown right into the pulsars to their deaths.
Plus unlike in the Lonely Among Us, this Picard couldn’t shoot lighting bolts out of his fingers, so there’s nothing stopping them from putting him in the brig.
You would think the Federation would have an SOP and some training on what to do in such a situation by now.
No one would ever take over the Captain's body and make him do crazy things twice in one continuing mission, would they?
14:30 -- those are my feelings *exactly*, including 99.99% of "spoilers" for a story/movie/show, etc. I am always more concerned about _how_ the thing is presented/executed vs what, exactly, it's about or whether or not I'm spoiled. (Further context: I don't go out of my way for spoilers -- I do appreciate a good surprise -- but that's much less of interest to me if/when I am spoiled by happenstance so long as the thing, itself, is well executed.)
Interesting about "how well it's done." (although I'm trying to think of how Deja Q wasn't "done well" but I digress lol.) Pretty sure everyone does care about that. I do. Just maybe not quite as much on the top of their list? The premise and content matter a lot to me. So I hold an episode like A Matter of Perspective in SLIGHTLY less regard than you, since I'm not that interested in murder mysteries especially when we know there's no way the person did it. But an episode like Where No One Has Gone Before is fascinating to me, even though it's flawed, because it's exploring such mind blowing topics as going to/through other galaxies, how on earth was it accomplished, can we harness this again, what does this imply moving forward etc.
Y'all might enjoy the Mego Star Trek episodes (on YT,) where a guy remade TOS episodes using original audio and figurines.
For me episode 15 up to episode 23 is all bangers !!
Just to repeat, Kolbe is pronounced Coal-buh, which rhymes with cobra.
His ex, Kate Mulgrew, corrected an announcer or emcee at a Star Trek convention.
in the next 3.5 seasons there are only two or three episodes that dip down to season 1 and 2 quality
I agree that it’s about execution but a good message or an original idea will elevate an episode. The Offspring was executed well but it’s the messages about fatherhood and what rights do androids have that make the episode so good. And it was an original episode. I don’t recall seeing a story about a robot building a child before.
Some of us mention historical facts to point out the audience's points of view at the time the show came out.
Alex and Josh, I'd agree with you! Definitely a streak. Can't happen forever, but this shows you how fans consider season 3 where it comes into its own, and really gets going. As a fan, I think fans saying 'season 3 is really good' maybe mis-characterized it for you guys. I think like I said (and hopefully you will agree) Season 3 is where it gets going. Not perfect by any stretch, but a big step up all around from 1 and 2. Would you say (at least thus far) that 70% of season 3 is good, even great, and 30% are mid, and even some not good. there are definitely more hits than misses. What do you think?
The point about the subject matter isn't about whether its good or bad. It's that if you are not familiar with the context you miss the nuance of the episode. And the reason people bring it up is that Star Trek is known for taking issues which are divisive in society as of the date they air them and getting people to focus on the issue.
If society has moved passed that issue then it may hit differently.
I always wonder what the other imposters were doing on the othe alien planets
Both are important. The best premise in the world cannot overcome a failure in execution, and the best execution in the world cannot overcome a failure in concept. That being said I'm usually more forgiving of a good idea when it fails than I am if it's a bad idea in the first place.
I am of the belief there is no idea “bad” enough to not be executed well.
@@targetaudience It depends. That might be true for stand alone stories (maybe). I think it gets more complicated for a series. At some point the concepts for individual episodes become part of the overall execution of the series.
Maybe I was being unfair saying "cannot". It might be more fair to say the worse the idea the more insane the execution needs to be.
We tried to tell ya bros lol. But believe it or not... you ain't seen nuthin yet!
For me, this episode has always fallen a bit flat, coming as it does on the heels of 3 iconic, game-changing episodes. It certainly has its moments, though. I particularly like the part at the end when Picard turns the tables on his captors, demonstrating in the process that he's capable of communicating very efficiently and effectively with his crew, even without the benefit of telepathy.
Incidentally, the makeup supervisor for Star Trek TNG was Michael Westmore, and I just learned today that he and his team were nominated for an Emmy for this episode.
How do you think they handled the loyalty to chain of command in this vs Doomsday Machine?
Despite our underwhelming opinion on The Doomsday Machine, Kirk trying to relieve Decker and put Spock in command over the communicator was one of the best scenes in all of Star Trek so far. I’d have to go with that, but this episode did it well too.
@@targetaudience I cannot argue with that assessment 🤣🤌🖖
I’ve seen all of Star Trek (some of it too much) EXCEPT Enterprise. I have tried multiple times (even attended a friend party for series premier watch a few weeks after Sept 11,2001). I love trek and even Scott Bacula but I just can’t with that.
I may be able to get as close as I ever have though by watching your journey through it. 🤣
How about 12 Angry Men all played by Muppets?
and
What the hell was that at the end?
I'm not as big a fan of this episode as you are. But it is emblematic of TNG's Season 3 - good ideas that are well executed. As you noted, they tried something like this in Season One's "Lonely Among Us," with Picard acting strangely and the crew having to react to it. But it works so much better here. Picard isn't suddenly acting bizarrely. He's just a bit off, and he steadily gets more so. It isn't until he puts the ship in actual danger that Riker steps in and takes over. And it's at that point, where the evidence is irrefutable, that the crew stands behind Riker. The plot with the real Picard and other prisoners is the weaker point for me, since the whole thing is so obviously a test that there's no real mystery. On a separate subject, credit must go again to Michael Westmore for his amazing makeup and design work.
02:50 the two biggest drivers that led to the world wide web we have today were porn, and sci fi nerds needing a platform to argue on.
I LOVE the next episode but I HIGHLY DOUBT they will put the next episode alongside Top Tier Trek. EVEN I wouldn't do that but the next episode is still great IMO.
This episode suffered from the fake Picard storyline feeling very similar to Lonely Among Us.
The stories are quite different of course but they seem so similar you could interchange most of Picard's scenes between the two and it would make no difference, other then the uniform change.
I thought "A Matter of Perspective" didn't work because the audience is just too inclined to believe Riker, and it ends with "In fact, Riker was innocent!" I have no problem honouring Rashoman, but with a season 3 Riker as a possible murderer/sexual assaulter? Can't suspend my disbelief.
If another series did a multiple perspectives episode in the first season with a character with a sketchier background, I think it'd work much better.
But this episode - yeah, all the story beats and technical stuff (like makeup and camera) work well. But I find the pacing too slow, personally.
“It’s about the execution”
Exactly. It’s called Star _Trek_ not Star Arrival.
It’s about the journey, not the destination. 🖖
This episode didn't resonate with me personally, but I think the execution was excellent at all levels.
But maybe Picard had set the relationship with her that way beforehand, so she had come to terms with it, until he started acting differently.
The disconnect You guys(Josh and Alex) feel sometime, is not just about story/plot/originality/importance/subtext vs execution...it's the level of execution you perceive and the qualities that you ascribe, that quite a few of your viewers(myself included) find incongruous with our views and opinions of the same subjects.
This episode shares similarities with the Twilight Zone episode Five Characters in Search of an Exit. I liked the concept, but felt the explanation didn’t work. The aliens possess the technology to create an almost-identical copy of Picard, so why do they need to kidnap him to study him? I thought the ending was weak.
As I understand, they don't just want to study him. They want to study the dynamic between him and those around him.
I'm both surprised and not surprised at how well you liked this one. Looking back I get that it hits a lot of the checkboxes for storytelling and cinema, so that's probably what pushed it over for you. I enjoy this one, but it's not in the top episodes for me, even in just season 3. Maybe since you've already seen all of the season by now in real time, you get the point. I think what kill it for me is actually the ending, and how fake the alien capture feels, and how convenient it is to solve the problem of superior alien tech (they beamed him off the E!) by saying "we know who you are now". Great episode, just not the top for me.
You guys gotta go to a convention and another thing consider watching Mission impossible Star Trek Sister show
sides of Picard we will probably never see.
well just wait next episode.
Is this party stopping?
I think the big difference between you and your viewers reactions to these episodes is that...
We, as original fans of the series, we're sci-fi fans
While you, reviewing these episodes are cinematic production fans
We critique the story, while you are more focused on the presentation
Season 3 TNG is where the world building of Star Trek begins. From here until around the year 2000 was peak Trek (minus a few stinky episodes here and there)
What happened to BATTLESTAR?
Some episodes are great on your first watch but lose a bit of their charm on rewatches. I think Allegiance might one of those.
When you strip away the mystery of these types of episode it's like viewing it through a different filter.
I'm going to split with the majority and say this one is only okay for me. Not a bad one by any means, but not particularly great either.
It suffers from proximity to other episodes. And from kind of redoing Lonely Among Us.
I was honestly not sure you'd like this one. For me, I can't get over the second hand embarrassment of Picard acting so....well, the way he does. But there's no doubt that the camera work and the make up effects are strong.
Guy seriously if you read these comments.....live stream the season finale please. I want to watch your minds blow. I will not tell you what happens, but if you think these episodes are good, and they are.....
I'd be shocked if you two find any of the remaining shows of season 3 a miss. I have to say buckle up boys..
There's a couple that might be just okay, for them. Possibly even three. But certainly there are no bad episodes left in the season. And season 4 is full of bangers, too.
WOOOO!! Booker T reference!!! I can dig it...SUCKAAAAA!!!!
Actually not one of my favorites. I disliked the "we just have tech that overcomes all your defenses" trope with no explanation. I know it is sci-fi but usually there is some kind of nod or technobabble to justify it. Especially because at the end they were able to easily trap the aliens. I also could not figure out what the hell the Picard imposter was doing ordering them into the pulsar. I am pretty sure he would have died as well. It made no sense. I am glad you all enjoyed it.
OK, I have to ask: What does the AI theme song say at that one point? "...on a cosmic journey feeling so ____." What is it? It sounds like "nence" to me, which is not a word. Am I mis-hearing it, or is that really a nonsense word? LOL Whatever. Not really important to me, I just wondered.
"feeling so immense"
@@Davie1875 lol
I laughed at first, because I thought you were joking. it sounded like the lyrics were saying Alex and Josh were feeling immense. I like Star Trek and all, but it rarely makes me feel immense. But I guess the idea is that the "journey" feels immense? (I guess if people rarely care about dangling participles anymore, why should AI? Ha.)
You should react to Pogo: Data and Picard, its stems from when Picard starts singing in 10-foward. It’s so weird where can’t stop watching.😂
To your point, if TNG did a 12 angry men homage, having seen 12 angry men, I'm confident you would judge it on how well it executed the homage.
So it's not necessarily did TNG do a take on vietnam, but how they did they take, and how relevant it was, which is why the experience is so different watching something 30 years later, because we're not talking about vietnam at all right now, but it was certainly relevant at the time.
So much of star trek is attempting to tackle issues or subjects and sometimes it fails and sometimes it succeeds. I think it's hard to not look at it in that context. But I don't think anyone has ever praised Star Trek simply for taking on a subject. It's always been about how well they do it. Case in point the episode tackling the IRA is largely panned. So I think it's still about execution at the end of the day, but people really like TNG because it tackles a lot of things or does homages to a lot of other media and does it well.
The dynamic of the relationship between the captain and the doctor goes all the way back to the animated episode with Captain April Poole. Counterclock incident?
While I don't hate any Season 3episode S3 E 25 is a bit of a let down to all these great episodes.
I agree. To me that episode has a cheesy, 1st season feel to it. I rarely rewatch it.