I always thought Neelix would have been better if he was introduced as more of a father figure to Kes, instead of boyfriend. He can be protective of her and have an arc about learning that she is still becoming her own person (and if she lasted until the end of the series we really see the roles reverse as she ages.) then we can really see it repeated wanting to protect Naomi. Tie it into his back story seeing kids hurt during the war. Make it less creepy try and have it come from a more wholesome place even if it is rooted in trauma.
The only way the Neelix/Kes dynamic works is when its a situation like Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwood: It's mentioned once, it changes both everything and nothing, *Do Not Do The Math.* On a long-running TV show, it's inevitable that the writers are eventually going to go digging their fingers into any available bucket of trauma to fill the episode count. We do not want the Indiana Jones prequel movie where Indy meets Marion for the first time and they have the whirlwind romance she brings up *Raiders of the Lost Ark.*
Kes’ age always came across to me as a somewhat unimaginative way of trying to make her seem more alien, because like most aliens in Star Trek, she’s basically just a human with a bit of decoration.
Honestly that explanation fits well for Voyager. The show was, while rarely being truly terrible, so often the definition of mediocrity in how unimaginative and unambitious it was just in general.
@@troikas3353 It was a huge missed opportunity to me for a Battlestar Treklactica. It should have been a lot more like The Equinox or Year of Hell but the entire show. I remember Janeway literally spelling out how they would never compromise their Starfleetyness ever, and that was that, like Episode 3, Season 1...
It also seemed like, assuming they originally had the intent of keeping her till the end, a weird decision because as the seasons go by they'd need heavier and heavier makeup for her character to really sell her species short lifespan.
My problem with Neelix was that they could never decide if he was “capable adventurer” or “good natured buffoon”. “Crouching Moron/Hidden Badass” is a hard trope to pull off and the writing team just couldn’t make it work. It made comments like Janeway saying he was a natural diplomat ring hollow because they never showed us enough build up so it felt unearned.
Agree, if they had an episode where Neelix and Tuvok were stranded on a planet, and NEELIX turned out to be the cpaable one, the one who built a rapport with the locals or something, and Tuvok found himself in a subordinate position, and finally acknowledging Neelix's abilities, it would have been fgood development. Or, perhaps, in an crisis, Neelix has to take the helm and pilot Voyager through a tough spot, and we learn that he's actually a surprisingly competent pilot, because he has years of experience, even if it is in smaller ships. But as you say, they could never decide whether he was capable adventureer or clowing buffoon.
Yeah, pretty sure I laughed in bewilderment at "natural diplomat". He always seems on the verge of making an awful, naive social gaff and his utter disrespect for Tuvok is not what you want in an ambassador.
My favorite thing about the Neelix-Kes relationship is how the evil alien warlord mind controlling Kes breaks up with Neelix, but they don't get back together after the episode ends. It's like Kes realized Tieran did her a favor...
Also in that episode, it starts off in a holodeck recreation of a resort Neelix has been to, but it becomes Tom Paris's program with the extra pizzazz he and Harry add to it. That setting then goes on to tease another budding romance when B'Elanna gets under Tom's skin with her buff holo-boyfriend. It sends a message to Neelix, yes, Tom stole his holodeck program, but that's it! He's not going to steal away his girlfriend (at least in the prime timeline).
IIRC, according to Ethan Phillips, there was actually a breakup scene filmed between the two of them a few episodes later where they decide to end the relationship and stay friends, but it ended up getting cut.
Yeah, but they also don't discuss it. They actually break up off screen, because apparently that scene was so unimportant to the writers that it got cut.
My favourite Neelix Meme is Janeway coming into the mess hall and saying: "Neelix, have I ever told you how great your cooking is?" "No, Captain, I don't think you have." "Then why are you still doing it?"
Neelix may hate himself for his draft dodging and consider himself a coward, but he can also be really brave. "Homestead" makes that clear when he finds a colony of his people, stands up for them by helping them come up with defense strategies, and ultimately stays with them at the end. Also fun fact. Robert Picarto tried out for Neelix too. Imagine how different that could have been eh?
"please state the nature of the morale or culinary emergency." Imagine them switched places. "hey mr vulcan, how is that ear tip infection? Did you know that laughter is very healing?""
He had one really great moment in STO. An alien warlord kills a friend of his to try to get a rise out of him, and asks "Does that make you angry, Talaxian?" and Neelix says, "No...just sad. Sad for my friend. And sad for you."
That's a great example of how great the writers are for _STO_ in terms of their understanding of the legacy characters. I genuinely love the fact that streaming-era _Trek_ has taken to "canonizing" ships and minor plot details from _STO_ (such as Mirror Janeway being an Ex-Borg).
He's saving that for the "Is _Lower Decks_ Really That Bad?" retrospective once the show ends. To be clear: Steve's opinion. This Tendi simp will just be tuning in to have a good rage-cry.
@@GSBarlev Tendi simps UNITE! Real talk though, I get WHY lower decks isn't everyone's cup o earl grey hot but I kinda have a different view than others about it. I view LD as kind of like.... "therapy" for the fanbase. A version of trek made by trek fans to have sensible chuckle over in a Self-deprecating way that could only exist in a post Discovery/Insurrection world. Lower decks an it's sillyness is there to keep us from going off the doom n gloom deep end. And also it's a section 31 plot to get us all hooked on those sweet green pheromones so we'll buy the tendi merch 31 prints out to fund their war effort.
Ethan Phillips has said in panels that one thing he likes to do in acting, is give his characters a secret. He uses it for his performance throughout, knowing it'll never be revealed on screen. Just because he believes it helps. In Neelix's case, he was hopelessly in love with Captain Janeway. Never said on screen, yet Phillips says that's what he was playing. I guess it's like Garak wanting to make sweet sweet love to Julian Bashir. Less noticeable though.
@@stevendorriesit's clear that he adores the Captain, but it's not clear that he's got romantic thoughts. He mostly comes off as just being kind of star-struck / sucking up to the authority figure (to me, at least)
Thank goodness for that. There's something so absolutely infuriating about seeing fans take out on the actors things that they have no control over. You hate a character? Fine, but they're only doing what the director and script tell them to do. Unless an actor has some pretty heavy star power and arrogance they won't be dictating to the director how their character acts and develops.
Frankly, it's easier to pick on a child. I mean look how that kid who played young Anakin Skywalker was treated. Very few children are actually great actors and should never be faulted when they aren't good. That falls on the director, writers, or sometimes just casting.
“Doctor, I’m depressed,” the man says; life is harsh, unforgiving, cruel. The doctor lights up. The treatment, after all, is simple. “The great morale officer Neelix is in town tonight,” the doctor says, “Go and see him! That should sort you out.” The man bursts into tears. “But doctor,” he says, “I am Neelix.”
Don't forget in the very first episode he shoots the water tanks right after Janeway had given them to the Kazon while negotiating for Kes's release and the Kazon's help, and their leader was willing to help until Neelix grabbed the gun and started blasting, making them an enemy for the crew from that moment forward. He didn't have to do that. He used the away team to rescue his girlfriend with blatant disregard for their lives and started an unnecessary conflict that made the Kazon villains for the rest of the series so he could be her "hero" which he boasts about immediately after they beam out on the transporter pad. Tuvok reprimands him for it in sickbay moments later, the Doctor interjects and says they'll be no arguing about morality in sickbay and then Janeway deactivates him for it. Neelix botched their first contact with the Kazon because he doesn't like Kazons and started a war.
The Kazon weren't enemies because of that interaction those Kazon didn't make it out of that episode and given they argued amongst themselves that wouldn't make the rest enemies of Voyager. The Kazon were enemies because of how they operated instead of developing their own infrastructure they tried to take what they needed from others. Voyager with it resources would have always been a target of such a group. Being the military arm of the federation they fully understood this. While his actions were rash he had enough experience with the Kazon to know a long term relationship with them was possible without them trying to take Voyagers resources. What about all the behavior of the Kazon made you think it was all Neelix's fault?
I think this says a lot about voyager when I tell you that I watched the entire series from beginning to end when it originally aired and I have no idea who Naomi is
You made me realize we missed out on a great Neelix-Seven-Naomi bottle episode. The three of them, stranded somewhere together, forced to become a wacky family unit.
The best Neelix episode, in my mind, not mentioned here is Season 3's "Rise". It inverts the Tuvok-Neelix dynamic somewhat. Throughout that episode, Tuvok is the one being a dick. "Stop making friends with everyone." "We are not in the holodeck or the Mess Hall, we are on a serious high-stakes dangerous mission." "Facts don't care about your feelings." The turning point is when Neelix's hunch actually pays off after repeatedly forcing the issue with Tuvok. Then at the end, Tuvok, having graciously taken the L, still tries to act like it was a fluke, so Neelix, in his own way, tries to goad Tuvok into admitting he just wants to have the last word.
Yeah, that was a great moment. And I would've loved to see something like this: "You just need to get the last word." "No, I don't." "Sure you do. You know it, ... and (gesturing toward the camera) so do all of them." This could've been the one time in the whole franchise that a Star Trek character breaks the fourth wall.
I'd have to watch that one again, but in general I side with the Tuvoks of such stories because often they are right, it was a needless risk and a fluke that it paid off, but the story generally takes the view that if it paid off, it was justified in the moment, and that just infuriates me. Perhaps to an irrational degree, ironically.
Thank you for sharing the tragic characterization of Neelix, Steve. I've been a longtime fan of Neelix (more so his character as depicted in the latter seasons) because he acted as a role model for me; struggling with a tragic past but still being an eternal optimist who would do anything to help his friends. He's not defined by what he's lost. He is the embodiment of kindness while his emotional pain is never far from the surface. He loses everything; his family, his home world, his people, and even his faith. But he's still strong enough to put on a smile and serve others any way he can. I had the opportunity to meet Ethan Phillips in person at a Toronto sci fi convention many years ago. He came across as one of the most humble Trek actors I have ever met. It sounds like he's struggled with a lot of things in his personal life as well which, I think, has added nuance to his portrayal of Neelix. Lots of respect for him. =)
The character starts off as a creepy dude with an awkwardly young girl in a space RV and turns into everyone's favourite babysitter. What a guy. Ethan Phillips did a great job with what he had.
When the show started I still remember my mom saying “so kes ages in dog years?” And my dad goes “that makes kes 14 to 20, and it seems like they have been together a while.” 😦
Nelix and Tu'vok's relationship is one of the best. "Mr. Nelix. What are you doing in my quarters?" He decided to bunk with Tu'vok when they found the Klingon ship and needed extra space. 😂 He left the place kind of messy. They made Nelix and Tu'vok comic relief.
Ch'rega was there. They made passionate love and totally wrecked Tuvok's quarters. And Ch'rega went off the ship with some extra cargo... Half Talaxian, half Klingon. That's me! 😁😁🙋♀🙋♀
One of the things about neelix that I think is important is the weird friend factor. It makes voyager realistic in the same way TNG had Barclay. He fulfills the real life role of the annoying friend. Everyone has a friend that they actually find kind of irritating that you can't quite figure out why they're there or how you became friends until they do something important or amazing and you're reminded.
Kinda surprised you did not at least touch upon Tuvix. Neelix and Tuvok got to know each other pretty well during that episode, so it may explain why Neelix is always trying to evoke any sort of emotion from Tuvok, he knows things about the stoic Vulcan the rest of us don't.
That's something I've always wondered actually do Tuvok and Neelix remember being Tuvix? The episode ended right after the split and it was never referenced again, I kinda wish we got to hear their opinions and processing of the whole thing.
@@vamp_bat_chomp Their immediate reactions to being split up indicate they do remember. That Tuvix is never acknowledged after the fact is one of Voyager's more glaring plot shortcomings imo.
my take on neelix is quite simple: he's suffering from massive ptsd from the get-go, tries to hide it and fake being ok instead of getting help, and as a result he's a dangerously unstable mess that should never have been allowed on board of a spaceship where there's tons of ways to get a lot of people killed, like for example setting fire to the mess hall
Regarding Tuvok and Neelix. There is one episode where Tuvok gets mentally broken somehow and Neelix is the one to take care of him. At the end, the childlike Tuvok does say that he cares very much for him and he takes that to mean that the normal one does as well.
The thing about Neelix is that his writing changes drastically by season. Season 1 Neelix has a few interesting ideas, has a decent character episode, and doesn't get that bad until he cripples the ship with bad cheese in the season finale. Season 2 Neelix is the one where the writers went all out making him insufferable. It's where most of us learned to hate Neelix. Season 3 Neelix, the writers realizing that they had created a problem toned Neelix done a lot. Season 4 - 7 Neelix the writers lost any idea what to do with the character as his primary value to the crew ( guide / ambassador ) was lost and with the exception of a redemption episode in season 4 and a farewell episode in season 7 "Harry Kim"'d him and did nothing with him making him basically a background character. So Neelix isn't that bad taking all of Voyager into consideration. But it's season 2 where he truly was that bad and why so many hate him.
Kes and Neelix's relationship could have been made less icky by making her character 20 ish with a lifespan of 30. She is still from a short lived species, there is still the tragedy of dying young, but she is unquestionably an adult. They could even have written in a way to extend her lifespan after a couple of sesaons. If that sounds familiar, it is because that is what happened with Saru on Discovery. And that was awesome.
Or, an here's a crazy concept, give his species the same life span as Kes. Then not only would it be way less ick vibes, but it'd add a subtle layer to him that one could find impressive. Yeah, he wasn't perfect by any means... but all those skills he's learned an information he knows suddenly seems very impressive when you realize he's got the life span of a house cat.
The age isn't the only issue, making her 20 doesn't change her upbringing. Neelix is a creep... and the part that makes him the worse: The Writers didn't see that as Creepy!
My boy Saru was one of my favorite characters on Discovery! And I was so happy when he found true love with the President of Vulcan and married her in the series finale!
The problem is that isn't really "helping" him. Which doesn't really change the argument that ignoring someones culture and preferences isn't a good thing...
I am going to say this. I actually like Voyager. Its not the strongest Star Trek series, nor my favorite, but I do like it. That said, I always have to say that the series greatest weakness was that the story writers were never willing to fully commit to the premise of the story. They had the crew completely stranded from the Federation and such, but aside from a handful of episodes, the problems that would arise from said stranding are usually handled such that they are all (to use a common phrase from another channel) "Super easy, barely an inconvenience." Half the crew are Marquis and liable to cause heads to butt against each other, but this fact is almost forgotten once Seska's betrayal is revealed and was barely used before that point. Essentially it was like the writers didn't want their premises to have an actual impact on the stories they wrote. Neelix was kind of a victim of this. The pilot kind of presented the idea that he would essentially be a friendly and furry Quark-type (like stated in the video), but the writers couldn't have a character with negative character traits, so that was quickly shaved away. Once they shaved away the wheelin' and dealin', the only thing they kept was that he knew a good deal about the section of the quadrant they were in, but by necessity that had to be dropped halfway through the series. Likewise, his relationship with Kes was probably the writers realizing the hole they put themselves in by making Kes chronologically two years old. They couldn't do anything to develop that relationship without giving Neelix a rather HORRIFIC character trait (which in this case I do applaud them for not developing that). But then they also did give Neelix some rather bad traits like being overbearing and protective of Kes when it came to Paris.... Which then started to pewter away and finally was completely gone once Kes was gone. That said, I do like the times that Voyager actually focuses on Neelix in episodes. I liked the episodes mentioned in the video, as well as the episode where Neelix gets involved in criminal activity at a station, because he needed to get a map for Voyager because he no longer knew what waited ahead of them. And while I completely agree that Neelix is completely an ass when it came to Tuvok, I also liked the episode with the space elevator in the planet, where the two are stuck trying to repair to help the others on it, and after Tuvok severely dismissed something Neelix brought up about the situation, Neelix does go back with something like "I know you think I am a fool and you don't like me, but I need you to LISTEN TO ME". Which I suppose means the writers were hoping to aim for Neelix's poking at Tuvok to be kind of like him trying to earn the Vulcan's respect and possible friendship?
My partner and I love Voyager (sometimes ironically but genuinely in many aspects too), and from our frequent rewatches we both came to the conclusion that Neelix isn't that bad, and in fact is endearing and a little tragic. I wish the writers did more with him, because they seemed to try and shoehorn him into this Jar Jar Binks kind of character, but there are plenty of episodes where I really appreciate his character.
I also see the potential, but it was so badly executed I just flinch. If they didn't over-use him on mundane stuff, made it so he was a proper guide and did it well, it could have worked. Had the ship contain a few unique characters that where not Starfleet, and how that all blended to make this trip back to known space survivable. However... they also did nothing with the Marque and they could have been great too.... So, sadly, writers fault all around.
I bought Neelix's cookbook a month ago. It's neat, because there's info from the prop master about how they made certain foods and drinks for the screen.
Yeah, the Neelix/Kes dynamic just feels icky, particularly given the nearly 20-year real world age gap between the two actors involved. Voyager really messed up hiring Luc Besson as a creative consultant for the pilot. More seriously, one of the worst things about “Tuvix” as an episode is what a wasted opportunity it was for the Tuvok and Neelix relationship. Deep Space 9 obviously would have done something with two characters who spent weeks sharing a body, mind, and memories. But it seems like even TNG would have done something to make it so Tuvix and his death had some lasting impact on how they interacted after that.
So-here's my headcanon: *Neelix and Kes **_never_** had a romantic relationship.* Neelix saying that they did was a way to _protect_ this young, naïve babe (both meanings) from being the target of all manner of unsavory characters they had to do business with in order to survive. Even once they joined the crew of Voyager, Neelix kept up the "act" to protect Kes from getting Kirked by Tom or Harry. It was a moment of growth for Kes to step out permanently from that protection, and it was one that Neelix accepted.
As if Odo and Kira didn’t feel like an older mentor taking advantage of a protege who was desperate for stability. Love them both, but together, gross.
@@BorderlineEnlightenment Which one was the mentor and which one was the protege? I’m having trouble finding why now, but I thought Odo was hundreds of years old in his substance as a changeling, and the actor was in his mid-50s, but Odo as a sentient being was only a teenager character. He just chose to make himself look like his “father” Doctor Mora and took on the personality of a grizzled detective because he read about it. But other than his natural aptitude for following evidence and seeking “order”, he has very little life experience and confidence in relationships. Whereas Kira Nerys was the one who was a veteran insurgent since she was a teenager and is in her mid-30s by the end of the show. That may be the same thing you meant, but all of the different identities misaligning is part of what Odo/Nerys not feel so gross as a pairing to me, even if they weren’t a good match for other reasons.
My favorite Neelix moment is in "Learning Curve". It's even a Neelix/Tuvok moment. Growing up, I was much more Tuvok than Neelix - I also found Neelix annoying as I watched Voyager when it was in its original run. I felt sympathy and admiration for Tuvok in this episode, even when I knew that the writers were trying to get us to sympathize with the former Maquis. The scene with the brittle Keela flower and Neelix's empathetic communication with Tuvok's situation struck a chord with me. In that scene, Neelix doesn't ridicule or bombast about the virtues of being "a regular guy" but gently reminds him that even though he's different, finding flexibility in his worldview will help him achieve the team-related goals he wants to achieve. The message that you don't have to give up your identity to work with other people with different identities is one that is Star Trek to the core.
They did the age thing with the genders reversed on DS9 a few times. Technically, everyone who dated Jadzia was going out with a much older woman. It was sometimes brought up. Usually when she talked to Sisko and he pointed out that Worf was so much more immature than she's is supposed to be. The didn't lean on it too hard but it was a part of the character and acknowledged. But it was also done a couple of times for Jake. When he was a teen dating a woman paying for college by Dabo girling and when he was trying to get it on with the creativity vampire. It was acknowledged for the Dabo girl, and part of the plot. Not particularly well handled but there was an attempt. The Muse episode was bad. So it kinda didn't matter that the age thing had no commentary. But it was supposed to be a vampire trope so the age thing was baked in.
I don't really get the whole large age gaps being inherently creepy thing. If there both mentally capable of giving consent and they both do and there no coercion or manipulation or something else that would be dodgy even if they were the same age then be can't object on moral grounds.
Ok, but Dax never (to our knowledge) pursued partners who would be legally unable to consent. We’re never given any idea as to when Kes’ people are considered physically or mentally mature. If we did know for certain that a two year old Ocampa was definitely considered an adult, that would give Kes the autonomy to tell Neelix to back off. If she’s not considered an adult, maybe a young adult at best, then her naïveté with Neelix makes more sense, but also means she is too young for him. They may have been trying to give themselves narrative wiggle room by not defining that clearly right away, but the longer it went on, the more uncomfortable the relationship became as Kes clearly was an adult, but still treated like a teen, at best, by Neelix.
20:40 i loved that episode that line Jetrel delivers "when I saw that blinding light, brighter than a thousand suns, I knew at that moment, exactly what inhad become." A nice retelling of how the scientist from the Manhattan Project may have felt.
I tend to think of Neelix as Voyager's Westley. the writers basically put a sign on him saying "this is the guy you're going to love!" without any idea of what to actually do with him. thus, an easy target for fan backlash.
I'd like to think that the "short lifespan / fast aging" thing was never about Neelix, and that supposed to make Kes a little more interesting. They probably wanted to have themes about seizing the day, and living in the moment, etc That way, the implications for her relationship with Neelix would be an unwanted side-effect, rather than being the goal. It would explain why they never seemed to want to do anything with those unfortunate implications Kes is a character in her own right after all. Aspects of her character are important because of what they say about her, not just because of what they say about the man who's with her
One episode that shows the viewers more of the inside of Neelix's head that forgot to mention is the episode on the space station at the Nekrid expanse where Neelix fears his usefullness is coming to an end because hes never been beyond it, so he tries, almost in a manic phase to find a map. He ends up meeting one of his old associates there and becaise hes so desperate, he puts aside his morals to help even though he ends up doing some highly illegal things to accomplish his goals. At the end, Janeway confronts him with the question (and im paraphrasing here its been a long time since i viewed it) "Did you have such little faith in this crew?" And instead of putting him off the ship, she gave him 2 weeks to a month of scrubbing out the sewer system of Voyager.
The idea behind Neelix being an outsider to the crew was an interesting and compelling idea. One they were sort of already flirting with, with half of the crew being Maquis... but as is with everything to do with Voyager, everyone and everything is let down with how miserably executed the show ended up. Imagine people as talented as the folks behind DS9 writing for Voyager, and how much more interesting Neelix would have ended up as a result. That being said as someone who got into the shows in the late 2017-2018... and Voyager's horrendous storytelling gaffs being as absolutely shit-tastic as they were... Neelix is a core reason why I fell in love with the franchise (Star Trek) in the first place. Voyager, Neelix, Tom Paris, Chakotay, Kes, Seven of Nine... all of these characters and then some being so horribly characterized and written told me: "Ohhhhh the people who make this shit aren't taking it seriously so I don't either..."... like if this show was Battlestar Galactica, The Expanse, or any other "serious" kind of SCI-FI i wouldn't be here right now... but its not. Star Trek is absolutely ridiculous... and it took me watching one of the worst series in the franchise to realize it... and I love that for the series. Thank you, Voyager. I love you.
Indeed. So much about Voyager would have been improved if the writers from DS9 had been writing for Voyager. Alas for VOY, however, they were already busy writing for DS9! And by the time that wasn’t the case anymore, the damage had been done.
I am of the age bracket, but not of the awareness. This is normal for me. I am autistic but was not dignosed until my 30's, so I didn't know why I engaged with media different from my peers, simply that I did. Namely, I can only keep up with a maximum of 3 media projects at a time if I am to digest and understand it, and that I NOPE when people try to force me to have an opinion before I've actually formed one. This means I played the Mass Effect Triolgy outside of the context of the hype machine and the fanboy butthurt about the ending. This means I've never read Twilight cause it's not my thing, but I am still Very Interested in conversations around it. This means I got into Trek via my trekkie parents, even more blissfully unaware of the fandom than I. I marathoned TNG, DS9, and VOY in 2015 to 2016, and Neelix was deeply endearing to me WHEN HE WASN'T BEING A JEALOUS CREEP. And when he said farewell? To me, that's where the series ended. I tried watching ENT and couldn't make it past the decontamination contrivance 😂
Yeah. ENT caught a lot of flak for that one. They even mocked it themselves in later seasons. Have you ever seen the clip where Archer is in the decon chamber rubbing the de-con gel all over his pet Beagle?
@@steveng.clinard1766 that's amazing. You should go meet some furries, I'm sure you can find someone who'll roleplay a beagle for you Or do you want to be the beagle?
@@steveng.clinard1766 eh, I won't yuk other's yum. In my opinion our genitals responding to odd things is why we have a word for Atypical Things That Are Gratifying: kink. Nothin wrong with being into something titilating. My issue is I wasn't there for that and was made deeply uncomfortable. I'll probably try again with some friends after getting high enough to take myself less seriously lol
I think Nelix and Tuvok made a better couple 4:04 When Tu'vok lost his memory and learned to feel emotions, the only person he wanted around him was Nelix. Deep down, he loved Nelix but could not express those feelings. When I say love, Nelix was Tu'vok's best friend. When Nelix left the ship, Tu'vok even danced for him. Nelix was eventually successful in getting Tu'vok to be friends. But it was always that way from day one. Even with your buddy Tu'vix, we learn they are inseparable.
Neelix basically became Gopher and Isaac from The Love Boat. The only Neelix episode I like was when he was revived from death and found his people’s afterlife didn’t exist. Of course that lasted about as long as the warp speed limit on TNG.
I will say that he had some great stories. The one where he actually died, was revived and became incredibly depressed because he didn't go to the afterlife. And his final story on the show was great as well. I don't hate Neelix at all, I kind of like him.
Although Neelix is deeply annoying for Tuvok, Tuvok is an absolute asshole for much of the run to Neelix - he absolutely refuses to meet him halfway, to show him any respect or appreciate his abilities, even when he's demonstrably correct e.g.Learning Curve when Neelix picks him up on his inability to train Marquis crew
As a character? No. And even the implementation of the character is not bad. What was bad is that the show kind of forgot whatever it wanted to do with him at some point and turned him into comic relief. I suspect he was supposed to be kind of like Guinan. Maybe a bit more flippant but he'd have been a sort of guide/therapist. But then the show started to use other characters for the therapist portion and it realized that the idea of a guide wouldn't work after awhile and the actor had a contract so the writers said... "uhhhh... he's a cook that acts funny!" Basically it was more the fault of what the show did with him rather than him. I feel the same way about Jodie Whitakers time on Dr Who - she is great. Whitaker was up to do whatever the show wanted to do with her in any random episode. And she isn't quite up to the acting talent of Capaldi (Who could elevate mediocre material by acting ability alone) but she tried really hard. But everyone behind the scenes forgot what they wanted to do with her and just left her flailing.
Jodie was no capaldi, but with jodie I always felt that she had the colin baker problem from the 80s. Mainly chibnall seemed to have no idea what really to do with her. Her doctor not being as good as say 9-12 seemed to be a script issue. So basically what you said. And yeah with neelix and sadly a lot of the voyager cast it felt like they just lost what they wanted to do with them. Or noticed that it didn't work.
Great breakdown of the character. Totally agree. For me, the contact high from being with Kes was the biggest problem. Once Kes was written off the show, everything, including Neelix, started to click.
It's been mentioned before by others, but I'm a little surprised you didn't bring up the episode where Tuvok has suffered a traumatic brain injury and he and Neelix become real friends. What stood out to me is that Neelix has a friendly Tuvok...but once the Doctor works out how to cure Tuvok, there is no crisis for Neelix. He likes this more open version of his friend, but he urges Tuvok (who is resistant because he likes Neelix too in this state) to take the cure and become himself because, as Neelix puts it, he would be a poor friend if he puts his own feelings above Tuvok's well being, and the crew's safety.
Regarding Kes, my personal head-canon was that the reason for her being "2 years old" was that maybe her planet had a very large or slow orbit in their star system and each orbit was about 12 terran years (similar to Jupiter). At least, that would make some sense, as, per that example, two jupiter years would be about 24 earth years.
What disappointed me about Neelix was that he was supposed to be the Traveling Merchant character, the guy who has been around the Quadrant, seen things, knew things. The guy who can say "I know these people, here is how to get the best deal from them." We got something like that a couple times, but not enough. Voyager would have been just fine without his help.
IMO the episode where Neelix had his near death experience when the videans stole his lungs really brought out the way Kes really cared about him the way a friend cares about another friend and less like a lover relationship like the way they were portrayed at first. Neelix had many other life changing events that really defined his character as a true member of the crew and not just as a background person. A major defining moment was when he broke the law with his old friend to get a map when Voyager was about to move past where he was familiar with and he was afraid his usefulness would be over so he broke the law of the trading post trying to help his friend Wix and at the same time help voyager trying to do the right things for the wrong reasons and after it was all over he actually became a better person and crew member
I know the Neelix/Kes pairing (and Tom/Kes pairing) made us feel icky but I think their motivation was they just wanted to play around with a new concept of a species that develops extremely rapidly and has a short lifespan, I think they believed that would be enough to slap away any uneasy feelings about the age, but then again they could have just not had them in a relationship at the same time and still explored that concept. It would have made more sense I guess if she exclusively dated other Ocampa because they could better understand her situation. At the very least they could have said that Talaxians also have a shorter lifespan or something, doesn't have to be 10 years but at least it would make more sense if it was shorter than a human life span, like 30 or 40 years or something.
I think the Idea with Kes was for her to age with the travel. They planned for a 7 season series and got a character who would reach her maximum life expectancy at the end of the journey.
I find the "Kes is only 2" argument a bit dumb. Its established that her species grows and matures faster. To live to live to be about 8 would put their aging about 10x faster than a human which puts her about the equivalent of 20. In just 2 more years, she would out age Nelix. This disgust would be like having disgust in an accepted fantasy trope of humans and elves. By an elf's standard, a 100 year old human would be about the same as a 10 year old. What i can get behind is that Nelix being toxic at first. His character does outgrow this though.
I mean, there is a reason why SFDebris calls him a shithead. For example, I remember one episode where he and Tuvok were on a space elevator with some scientists, and Neelix stopped the elevator in mid-air because Tuvok wasn't being nice to him and wasn't listening to him... Even though that meant that if they stopped the lift that way, they might never get it going again and there would be some deaths... I am not sure about the details, as it has been a while since I watched this episode, but for me it was one of those moments that confirmed my hatred for this character. Nothing against Ethan Phillips though.
Neelix nearly destroyed the ship with his cheese. I still think his coffee "evolved" Tom and Janeway into salamanders, not going faster than impossible. His "relationship" with Kes was often regrettable. And he was the "survival expert" who said, "You stand in front of the cave with all the bones, while I leave." He was the Gilligan of the island named Voyager.
Ah, but, if Kes' people only live nine years, then she may be only two in real life terms... but proportionally, when Neelix and Kes first get together, she'd be the equivalent of *_qwikmaffs_* fifteen years old. Oh dear.
Think of it this way, they are both aliens so does it matter? We don't know what Ocampans or Talaxians consider age appropriate. I never saw anything wrong with their relationship other than he could be stupidly jealous. In some ways he was less psychologically mature than her! Plus, there are current irl societies where 15 is an adult. I am not saying its right. I am not saying it is wrong. It just IS. I have no opinion on what age makes us adults. Americans say 18, MANY societies say 16 which seems to be very common, some way lower than that. As an anthropology student, legit the FIRST thing you are taught on day 1 in the classroom is never judge another culture by one's own standards because morals, ethics, taboos and customs are not REAL....they are not some inherent things that are handed down by god or the universe. They are society-based. (We cannot even judge human sacrifice, because it is not universally taboo. I disagree with it of course, but I don't judge the Aztecs) You are looking at their relationship through the lens of a modern-day American standard. (nothing magical happens to the human mind or body at age 18 is my point) We don't say ew on Romeo for Juliet. Different time, different culture. Who cares? Romeo is not some perv or anything lol, we don't say there was something sick about Shakespeare for writing it. (Although he may have been sick for writing Titus Andronicus lol, but I dunno....I love it. Damn near a horror story! edit: unless you are just being funny and I didn't know how to pick up on snark and sarcasm and wrote that for nothing lol
Two of my favourite Neelix and Tuvok episodes are Rise and Riddles. Its show that they both have respect for each other at some point in each of the episode's.
I always liked Neelix, I mean sure he’s often written to be annoying and needlessly possessive of Kes, but I felt the performance was great and there’s some episodes I thought really stand out for him, like the one where he dies and sees no afterlife and cannot comprehend life the same way. It actually showed some real depth that I didn’t see from many other characters.
It's easy to forget that Neelix is constantly terrified of his life going back to the way it was before he was saved by voyager. All his commonly highlighted flaws are either components of his character that were supposed to be problematic (he used to trade with terrible people, just to survive, and hadn't had a friend since the end of his world), or come from a place of fear of becoming the person his circumstances had forced him to become. He doesn't just grow as a character, but he also grows as a narrative device for the better projection of the show's themes.
I get what you mean re an in-universe explaination not making Neelix/Kes ok - and you know what, I agree, its still isn't ok. My question is how should scifi (or if we encounter aliens, real life) handle species with radically different lifespans? In Mass effect, the Asari near-universally have interspecies relationships (another somewhat iffy concept but lets bypass that for now) and that nearly always results in a massive age difference between them and their partners - nearly all Asari partners have much shorter lifespans, including humans; from an Asari POV, a human 80 years old is just about old enough to think about leaving home and striking out for themselves.
The idealism and human 'Utopia' that is Starfleet (and the Federation as a whole) is such a foreign concept to most everyone in the early years of travel the Delta quadrant. I've always seen Neelix's story as a nod to the 'we are a product of our surroundings/Trading Places' vibe - very similar to Eddie Murphy's character on both sides of the coin. When we meet him, he's an emotionally damaged scavenger, trying to just get by (and also run away with his girlfriend, which itself, is not an uncommon trope for those considered 'young and in love'). When he bargains to get himself onto Voyager, he thinks he's doing it for himself, to get ahead, as a way to secure himself and get a foothold to move on to bigger and better. That 'uncommon in the Delta quadrant' Star Trek idealism actually ends up appealing to him. I've always seen him as genuinely decent person, just caught up in the rough and scrapy area of the Delta quadrant where we first find him. Once he's finally met his basic needs and surrounded by people who can be an example of just what people can do when they try to better themselves, he whole-heartedly embraces the idea of also working to make himself a better person. Granted, some of it is personal pride, to show that he 'has something to offer' (again, he came on to Voyager to serve his own needs, but then realize he really IS getting the better end of that deal) and wants to do more to 'give back' and earn his place (we see an episode specifically devoted to that idea). As for his relationship with Mr. Vulcan - yes, the boundary crossing is definitely a thing with the constant 'I'm going to get you to show emotion' bit - which, honestly, Neelix is brand new to Vulcans - like many things on Voyager, Vulcans are simply a new and novel concept to him. Humans, by that point, have had Vulcans around for several 100 years - I guarantee you that early on (much to the chagrin of Vulcans everywhere) humans themselves were probably doing the exact same thing in their own interactions with Vulcans. Does that excuse it? No, but I feel that particular aspect is more of the writers pulling a "Nelix is us in the present, if we had Vulcans IRL". Also, despite having to fight the personal urge to 'dress it up' constantly, Neelix does legitimately try to meet Tuvok on his level via the constant refining (or un-refining?) of the Plo'meek recipe. Neelix is not dumb, but he also acknowledges his own inequality with Tuvok, intellectually, and doesn't try to force his way into more esoteric things like Vulcan meditation or Kal-toh - he sticks with his own personal strengths and engages with Mr. Vulcan from that place. Like many things in Voyager, sadly... many things perceived as bad or poor with characters in the show is usually the result of bad (or inconsistent) writing throughout the series.
Neelix was annoying at first, but he got much better as the series went on. I thought that last scene with Tuvok when Neelix left Voyager was pretty touching. I don’t think the fact that Kess was only 2 years old was all that creepy. It was just a throw away scifi detail about her species having a vey short lifespan. On Enterprise Tucker and T’Pol were something like 40 years apart in age. I think you’re a little harsh on Voyager. It’s not the best Star Trek series, but it wasn’t so bad. There were some pretty good episodes.
FYI I think you've got potheads confused with pot *dealers*. Most of us are happy to share what we've got but aren't gonna squander our stash. If they're being pushy about it they're selling.
Kes' age with the ocampan lifecycle read to me as an attempted commentary on how tragically short life can be depending on the circumstances you're born into, but with a severely fumbled delivery.
Remember that episode where Tom married Kes and had a daughter who married Kim. Several bro rules were definitely broken there. I always liked Neelix since he tried his best and I felt like he just wanted companionship since I imagine it's a lonely life being a Salvager. But yeah they should have not gone with the dating path. Would have been better if she and him were just close friends.
I think it's a bit unfair, especially the relationship with Kes. It seems like everyone forgets, that cultures (especially imaginar alien races) have different social values and norms. I find it awkward too, however, if that's a normal thing they are coming from, it should be accepted. From our western point of view it feels gross. Neelix has some remarkable character arc: from beeing basically a scavanger to becoming a respected member of the crew, cook, counsel, ambassador, uncle and a friend. I remember quite well the episode where he did this "illegal" trade in order to get information for the Voyager to navigate through a non catopographed area in the Delta quadrant because he had self doubt about his presence on the Voyager once he can not longer help with his experience. Neelix was a way deeper character than Tom Paris or B'Elana Torres...
Pressuring someone to do ANYTHING they’re uncomfortable with is always gross. No means no doesn’t just mean sex. I’m a pot smoker but I’d never even think of pushing someone to smoke if they didn’t want to. You don’t know what ppl have gone through. I have known those kind of ppl tho and, well, my friends and I don’t hang with them anymore. Cause they’re an asshole. Don’t be an asshole guys.
Initially, I was convinced Janeway would quickly address the extreme age discrepancy with Neelix behind closed doors and the relationship between them would be outed as a ruse. I thought he was going to turn out to be the wayward scoundrel con-artist who, upon seeing her uniquely young overly trusting and vulnerable state, had been unable to fight his protective instincts and taken on the role of an overprotective older brother with that being the redeeming quality that would ultimately be the deciding factor in her decision to trust Neelix to remain onboard long-term.
Neelix is not a bad character however his purpose on the show was head scratching to say the least. A character who provides "comic relief" in a drama series ends up not being funny or relieving. Instead, they become annoying which is the trap Neelix falls into. His uber-happy-upbeat-chipper personality was frequently grating to watch. It may him one note and lacking in substance. That said, his best story "Jetrel" gave him a complexity that frequently eluded him during his seven years on board Voyager. Ethan Phillips is a talented actor who performances were always strong, but the writing often let him down as Neelix was just a side character in an ensemble that had much more interesting players in its repertoire.
But Steve, as a Vulcan Tuvok likely is a vegetarian. I wonder if Neelix ever "forgot" to mention any animal products in the mess's food and gave it to Tuvok.
7:32 In the episode “Elogium” (2x4), Neelix definitively states “It has nothing to do with not trusting you. It’s HIM I don't trust.” I'm SHOCKED that you not only didn't mention this, but no other commenter has, either.
You know, I've never hated Neelix. I know he can be irritating from time to time, and I wouldn't want to hang out with him all the time, but he's not really that bad, and there are times I think he would be a great friend to have. His sincerity really comes across well sometimes, and I think those would be the moments that matter.
I've always thought of Neelix as frankly one of the most "human" Trek characters. No particularly spectacular skills, frequently annoying, definitely flawed; but he generally means well and he tries. Boy does he try. Maybe that's why he irritated so many of us. Maybe we saw too much of ourselves.
I truly believe they wanted to have a subplot where there is a slow realization that Kes won’t survive voyager’s trek back to earth. But they off-boarded her instead of dealing with it.
Neelix isn't the worst thing about Voyager. But there's so much else to choose from. For me, the worst thing is too hard to pin down to one, because it's everything from the decision to try TNG again, but with the journey being trying to get home, to running away from everything they felt was failing about DS9, to the obsession that this has to now be THE Trek to launch a whole new network, so now we have sweeps week (not really a thing in syndication), to constantly hitting the reset button out of a belief that the best way to grow an audience for a dramatic sci-fi television series is to assume all viewers are idiots and that the best stake are no stakes. So, if I had to pick one worst thing about Voyager, the only fair choice is Rick Berman. If the probably is systemic, and/or if the problem is "everything", best to blame the man at the top. EDIT: I didn't even remember to mention how the Maquis vs Starfleet was thrown out the window almost immediately. Was there anyone with ambition or vision anywhere near the driver's seat?
I felt like Neelix was one of those characters that prefers the company of innocent exploration driven entities because it pulls him away from dwelling on his past. It's hard to think about the stuff that makes you sad when you spend all day with someone curious about the world. His partner (Kes) is an 'adult' who learns incredibly quickly but has an insatiable curiosity about the universe; and from his perspective, needs a guide and protector to help her live her best life. The Voyager crew is a group of powerful but naive individuals, with a love for exploration, and a great need for guidance and protection on their long journey to their home. The Children of the Voyager ship (Naomi and the various other children Neelix interacts with) are curious, honest, in need of guidance, and occasionally protection from the truth. At the end of the Day, most of Neelix' actions are centered around building a family for himself, and trying to keep that family safe. He will lie, cheat, and steal to do it. He could have been great but not every writer understood how to keep a characters internal logic consistent...
I haven't watched Voyager in quite a while but the whole reason I think I was never bothered by the whole Neelix/Kess pairing is that it seemed like they were a couple in name only. Like, I could believe that they liked each other a lot, maybe even felt love, and that they chose to be attached (though it's implied IIRC that at least some of that is an arrangement of convenience). But it never seemed like they ever figured out how to be an actual couple.
Neelix was very different in S1 but I think that’s Moreso cause he had to be. IDK if the writers intended it or not but watching a sleazy con artist go to earnest and goofy once scarcity has been removed from their life and they aren’t scavenging for water can be an interesting character arc that highlights how the society we live in can bring out the worst in us because in that situation its better for our survival. If only the writers did more with that.
In the alternate universe where Voyager owned its original premise, con-man Neelix would have been of central importance to the crew, because without working replicators they’d have needed to engage in constant trade with worlds on their journey for basic resources. Making him different enough from Quark would have needed to be something the writers kept in mind, but there could be a Spock vs Data type contrast (naturally emotional trying not to be vs naturally unemotional and trying to discover emotion), where unlike Quark idealizing greed and trying to hide his compassionate side, Neelix could have always been a little MORE untrustworthy than he acted.
Neelix had a small role in Better Call Saul, as a municipal judge who talked Kim Wexler, bored with her big bank client, into picking up some pro bono clients.
As an outsider, and someone who has lost everything due to trauma, I can relate to Neelix. Voyager being Voyager, you have to work to pull all the lore together, but Neelix does read a lot like a refugee. Especially with the little tidbits you learn about Talaxians along the way. The writers did him a major disservice with Kes' backstory. There is so much wasted potential in unexplored history beyond the little we got to see.
Watching "Riddles" last night and seeing Neelix actually be genuinely concerned for the (essentially) mindwiped Tuvok because he blames himself for not preventing it, and the moment of near mutual respect where Tuvok makes an amusing, and thoroughly illogical, comment is genuinely touching. and yet, it being Voyager, is never referenced again.
I never really found the Neelix and Kes relationship all that creepy because they're aliens. For all we know Kes' species the Ocampa's version of a romantic relationship is more like platonic friends because of how short their lifespan is (Kes clearly uses Neelix as a way to experience as much as she can before she passes and even joins Voyager knowing she will die LONG before they ever even remotely make it to the Alpha quadrant). Neelix's jealous streak is still very annoying, but his and Kes' relationship was never creepy to me. Who am I to judge an alien species on what is socially acceptable or not. As for the behind of scenes writing reasons... yeah gross. Same reason I find a lot of those excuses are more written for fetishy reasons (a young woman needs big knowledgable older man to teach her the ways of the world). Just gross. For in-universe I don't really think I can judge Neelix negatively for it. Aliens can have rapidly different ages and age ranges of acceptable romantic partners. Should, a Human and a Vulcan relationship be considered icky because Vulcans mature much slower than humans, but are physically way older and live two-three times longer? It is so dumb to call out Neelix without calling out T'Pol (who was 64-68 when she started having feelings for then eventually having a relationship with Trip who was in his late-20s/early-30s) or Sarek in the same breath.
I always thought Neelix would have been better if he was introduced as more of a father figure to Kes, instead of boyfriend. He can be protective of her and have an arc about learning that she is still becoming her own person (and if she lasted until the end of the series we really see the roles reverse as she ages.) then we can really see it repeated wanting to protect Naomi. Tie it into his back story seeing kids hurt during the war. Make it less creepy try and have it come from a more wholesome place even if it is rooted in trauma.
Ooh, I don't know. Given how creepy Star Trek was about women in that era, I think "father figure" would turn gross real fast.
Oh! Yes this would have been better.
I think big brother mentor would be a better aim, but overall I like the concept.
That's a pretty great alternate idea.
The only way the Neelix/Kes dynamic works is when its a situation like Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwood: It's mentioned once, it changes both everything and nothing, *Do Not Do The Math.*
On a long-running TV show, it's inevitable that the writers are eventually going to go digging their fingers into any available bucket of trauma to fill the episode count.
We do not want the Indiana Jones prequel movie where Indy meets Marion for the first time and they have the whirlwind romance she brings up *Raiders of the Lost Ark.*
Kes’ age always came across to me as a somewhat unimaginative way of trying to make her seem more alien, because like most aliens in Star Trek, she’s basically just a human with a bit of decoration.
yeah thats how i always saw it as well, didn't even consider the lolicon age gap type sht.
Honestly that explanation fits well for Voyager. The show was, while rarely being truly terrible, so often the definition of mediocrity in how unimaginative and unambitious it was just in general.
@@troikas3353 It was a huge missed opportunity to me for a Battlestar Treklactica. It should have been a lot more like The Equinox or Year of Hell but the entire show.
I remember Janeway literally spelling out how they would never compromise their Starfleetyness ever, and that was that, like Episode 3, Season 1...
It also seemed like, assuming they originally had the intent of keeping her till the end, a weird decision because as the seasons go by they'd need heavier and heavier makeup for her character to really sell her species short lifespan.
@@P4GYYHonestly Berman and Braga were in charge so it's entirely possible they DID think of that and then decided to do it anyway.
My problem with Neelix was that they could never decide if he was “capable adventurer” or “good natured buffoon”. “Crouching Moron/Hidden Badass” is a hard trope to pull off and the writing team just couldn’t make it work. It made comments like Janeway saying he was a natural diplomat ring hollow because they never showed us enough build up so it felt unearned.
And his naiveté never really diminished to the point where I'd consider him appropriate for an ambassador or diplomat.
Agree, if they had an episode where Neelix and Tuvok were stranded on a planet, and NEELIX turned out to be the cpaable one, the one who built a rapport with the locals or something, and Tuvok found himself in a subordinate position, and finally acknowledging Neelix's abilities, it would have been fgood development.
Or, perhaps, in an crisis, Neelix has to take the helm and pilot Voyager through a tough spot, and we learn that he's actually a surprisingly competent pilot, because he has years of experience, even if it is in smaller ships.
But as you say, they could never decide whether he was capable adventureer or clowing buffoon.
Yeah, pretty sure I laughed in bewilderment at "natural diplomat". He always seems on the verge of making an awful, naive social gaff and his utter disrespect for Tuvok is not what you want in an ambassador.
My favorite thing about the Neelix-Kes relationship is how the evil alien warlord mind controlling Kes breaks up with Neelix, but they don't get back together after the episode ends. It's like Kes realized Tieran did her a favor...
it did seem that the writers really realized , oh god we gotta move on and develop this character.
Also in that episode, it starts off in a holodeck recreation of a resort Neelix has been to, but it becomes Tom Paris's program with the extra pizzazz he and Harry add to it. That setting then goes on to tease another budding romance when B'Elanna gets under Tom's skin with her buff holo-boyfriend. It sends a message to Neelix, yes, Tom stole his holodeck program, but that's it! He's not going to steal away his girlfriend (at least in the prime timeline).
IIRC, according to Ethan Phillips, there was actually a breakup scene filmed between the two of them a few episodes later where they decide to end the relationship and stay friends, but it ended up getting cut.
The Neelix-Kes thing turned Me òff to the character, and the pestering Tuvok, both forever turned Me off, I merely tolerated Him.
Yeah, but they also don't discuss it. They actually break up off screen, because apparently that scene was so unimportant to the writers that it got cut.
My favourite Neelix Meme is Janeway coming into the mess hall and saying:
"Neelix, have I ever told you how great your cooking is?"
"No, Captain, I don't think you have."
"Then why are you still doing it?"
Neelix may hate himself for his draft dodging and consider himself a coward, but he can also be really brave. "Homestead" makes that clear when he finds a colony of his people, stands up for them by helping them come up with defense strategies, and ultimately stays with them at the end.
Also fun fact. Robert Picarto tried out for Neelix too. Imagine how different that could have been eh?
One of my fav little factoids of the casting process(es)
That's the episode when Neelix was steering his ship into the path of that mine, right? Self-sacrifice moments always get me.
@@AndrewD8Red yeeeeep
Neelix would die for his ship, and for any member of the Voyager crew. Say what you want about him, that statement stands
"please state the nature of the morale or culinary emergency."
Imagine them switched places. "hey mr vulcan, how is that ear tip infection? Did you know that laughter is very healing?""
He had one really great moment in STO. An alien warlord kills a friend of his to try to get a rise out of him, and asks "Does that make you angry, Talaxian?" and Neelix says, "No...just sad. Sad for my friend. And sad for you."
That's a great example of how great the writers are for _STO_ in terms of their understanding of the legacy characters. I genuinely love the fact that streaming-era _Trek_ has taken to "canonizing" ships and minor plot details from _STO_ (such as Mirror Janeway being an Ex-Borg).
Say what you will about STO, there is some really good writing for some of the quests. Which was helped by having the actual actors play their parts.
That's badass
STO? Star Trek what?
@@marieroberts5664 Star Trek Online
I was half expecting this just to start with "yes!" an then 34 minutes an 25 seconds of Steve sitting back an sipping a whiskey.
He's saving that for the "Is _Lower Decks_ Really That Bad?" retrospective once the show ends.
To be clear: Steve's opinion. This Tendi simp will just be tuning in to have a good rage-cry.
@@GSBarlev Tendi simps UNITE! Real talk though, I get WHY lower decks isn't everyone's cup o earl grey hot but I kinda have a different view than others about it. I view LD as kind of like.... "therapy" for the fanbase. A version of trek made by trek fans to have sensible chuckle over in a Self-deprecating way that could only exist in a post Discovery/Insurrection world. Lower decks an it's sillyness is there to keep us from going off the doom n gloom deep end.
And also it's a section 31 plot to get us all hooked on those sweet green pheromones so we'll buy the tendi merch 31 prints out to fund their war effort.
@@GSBarlev Ha, Yeah. :D (Steve's dislike of Lower Decks is something I find interesting, since it's by far my favourite of the star treks.)
Or at least “yes!” (End card) “ok, ok, maybe I should explain…” and then the rest
Yes
Ethan Phillips has said in panels that one thing he likes to do in acting, is give his characters a secret. He uses it for his performance throughout, knowing it'll never be revealed on screen. Just because he believes it helps. In Neelix's case, he was hopelessly in love with Captain Janeway. Never said on screen, yet Phillips says that's what he was playing. I guess it's like Garak wanting to make sweet sweet love to Julian Bashir. Less noticeable though.
There's only two things in the universe Janeway loves. Coffee....and violence... and someone just broke her favorite coffee mug
@@TomGallagherSuperboyBeyond I didn’t know about that and now I’m glad I do.
Wonder what secret he was hiding in Bad Santa? 🤔
...That's genuinely really sweet.
Less noticeable?
@@stevendorriesit's clear that he adores the Captain, but it's not clear that he's got romantic thoughts. He mostly comes off as just being kind of star-struck / sucking up to the authority figure (to me, at least)
Side topic: One thing I've always appreciated about Neelix is that Ethan Phillips didn't get the toxic fan derision that Wil Wheaton endured.
Thank goodness for that. There's something so absolutely infuriating about seeing fans take out on the actors things that they have no control over.
You hate a character? Fine, but they're only doing what the director and script tell them to do. Unless an actor has some pretty heavy star power and arrogance they won't be dictating to the director how their character acts and develops.
Ethan Phillips was a grown man whereas Wil Wheaton was a teenager. So many adult fans of Trek offloaded their resentment on the boy wonder
@@crosana01 What makes you think we’re going after the person, when we’re going after the horrible character that was written into the show?
He didn't???? Are you sure?
Frankly, it's easier to pick on a child. I mean look how that kid who played young Anakin Skywalker was treated.
Very few children are actually great actors and should never be faulted when they aren't good.
That falls on the director, writers, or sometimes just casting.
“Doctor, I’m depressed,” the man says; life is harsh, unforgiving, cruel. The doctor lights up. The treatment, after all, is simple. “The great morale officer Neelix is in town tonight,” the doctor says, “Go and see him! That should sort you out.” The man bursts into tears. “But doctor,” he says, “I am Neelix.”
Always loved that joke, in various forms.
Underrated and probably flew over a lot of people’s heads😂
Roll on snare. Everybody laugh. Curtains.
Don't forget in the very first episode he shoots the water tanks right after Janeway had given them to the Kazon while negotiating for Kes's release and the Kazon's help, and their leader was willing to help until Neelix grabbed the gun and started blasting, making them an enemy for the crew from that moment forward. He didn't have to do that. He used the away team to rescue his girlfriend with blatant disregard for their lives and started an unnecessary conflict that made the Kazon villains for the rest of the series so he could be her "hero" which he boasts about immediately after they beam out on the transporter pad. Tuvok reprimands him for it in sickbay moments later, the Doctor interjects and says they'll be no arguing about morality in sickbay and then Janeway deactivates him for it. Neelix botched their first contact with the Kazon because he doesn't like Kazons and started a war.
The Kazon weren't enemies because of that interaction those Kazon didn't make it out of that episode and given they argued amongst themselves that wouldn't make the rest enemies of Voyager. The Kazon were enemies because of how they operated instead of developing their own infrastructure they tried to take what they needed from others. Voyager with it resources would have always been a target of such a group. Being the military arm of the federation they fully understood this. While his actions were rash he had enough experience with the Kazon to know a long term relationship with them was possible without them trying to take Voyagers resources. What about all the behavior of the Kazon made you think it was all Neelix's fault?
I love how Neelix and Seven basically become the cool uncle and aunt to Naomi.
I think this says a lot about voyager when I tell you that I watched the entire series from beginning to end when it originally aired and I have no idea who Naomi is
You made me realize we missed out on a great Neelix-Seven-Naomi bottle episode. The three of them, stranded somewhere together, forced to become a wacky family unit.
Zany, wacky, annoying. Definitely not cool.
"You don’t mind it when they stay, but you’re not too sad when they leave"
The best Neelix episode, in my mind, not mentioned here is Season 3's "Rise". It inverts the Tuvok-Neelix dynamic somewhat. Throughout that episode, Tuvok is the one being a dick. "Stop making friends with everyone." "We are not in the holodeck or the Mess Hall, we are on a serious high-stakes dangerous mission." "Facts don't care about your feelings." The turning point is when Neelix's hunch actually pays off after repeatedly forcing the issue with Tuvok. Then at the end, Tuvok, having graciously taken the L, still tries to act like it was a fluke, so Neelix, in his own way, tries to goad Tuvok into admitting he just wants to have the last word.
Yeah, that was a great moment. And I would've loved to see something like this:
"You just need to get the last word."
"No, I don't."
"Sure you do. You know it, ... and (gesturing toward the camera) so do all of them."
This could've been the one time in the whole franchise that a Star Trek character breaks the fourth wall.
I'd have to watch that one again, but in general I side with the Tuvoks of such stories because often they are right, it was a needless risk and a fluke that it paid off, but the story generally takes the view that if it paid off, it was justified in the moment, and that just infuriates me. Perhaps to an irrational degree, ironically.
Thank you for sharing the tragic characterization of Neelix, Steve. I've been a longtime fan of Neelix (more so his character as depicted in the latter seasons) because he acted as a role model for me; struggling with a tragic past but still being an eternal optimist who would do anything to help his friends. He's not defined by what he's lost. He is the embodiment of kindness while his emotional pain is never far from the surface. He loses everything; his family, his home world, his people, and even his faith. But he's still strong enough to put on a smile and serve others any way he can.
I had the opportunity to meet Ethan Phillips in person at a Toronto sci fi convention many years ago. He came across as one of the most humble Trek actors I have ever met. It sounds like he's struggled with a lot of things in his personal life as well which, I think, has added nuance to his portrayal of Neelix. Lots of respect for him. =)
The character starts off as a creepy dude with an awkwardly young girl in a space RV and turns into everyone's favourite babysitter. What a guy. Ethan Phillips did a great job with what he had.
Did he? Or was Neelix hoping Naomi Wildman was from a fast maturing species?
When the show started I still remember my mom saying “so kes ages in dog years?” And my dad goes “that makes kes 14 to 20, and it seems like they have been together a while.” 😦
I thought exactly that, you can't judge her in human terms, or any of her race, since they only live to age 9 or so, in human terms.
@@carlwalker7560 I mean, she's a fictional character created by human men in the 90s so we can certainly judge a couple things from that fact.
That thumbnail is great. It makes me think he's about to have a comedy special, something which immediately triggers my fight or flight
Neelix: Jazz hands
I'll always remember this moment when Neelix offered to let B'Elanna Torres unwind or decompress by insulting him.
Nelix and Tu'vok's relationship is one of the best. "Mr. Nelix. What are you doing in my quarters?" He decided to bunk with Tu'vok when they found the Klingon ship and needed extra space. 😂 He left the place kind of messy.
They made Nelix and Tu'vok comic relief.
OMG the hilarious part was Neelix hooking up with a Klingon woman and they basically destroyed Tu’voks quarters at the end of the episode
Ch'rega was there.
They made passionate love and totally wrecked Tuvok's quarters.
And Ch'rega went off the ship with some extra cargo...
Half Talaxian, half Klingon. That's me! 😁😁🙋♀🙋♀
Tim Russ really nailed that unwavering Vulcan disdain at Neelix' antics, it always cracked me up.
One of the things about neelix that I think is important is the weird friend factor. It makes voyager realistic in the same way TNG had Barclay. He fulfills the real life role of the annoying friend. Everyone has a friend that they actually find kind of irritating that you can't quite figure out why they're there or how you became friends until they do something important or amazing and you're reminded.
Kinda surprised you did not at least touch upon Tuvix. Neelix and Tuvok got to know each other pretty well during that episode, so it may explain why Neelix is always trying to evoke any sort of emotion from Tuvok, he knows things about the stoic Vulcan the rest of us don't.
He did a whole Tuvix episode
That's something I've always wondered actually do Tuvok and Neelix remember being Tuvix? The episode ended right after the split and it was never referenced again, I kinda wish we got to hear their opinions and processing of the whole thing.
Tuvix is my favorite Star Trek Voyager episode, even though I cry me a river every time I see it.
@@vamp_bat_chompGood question! I never thought that.
@@vamp_bat_chomp Their immediate reactions to being split up indicate they do remember. That Tuvix is never acknowledged after the fact is one of Voyager's more glaring plot shortcomings imo.
my take on neelix is quite simple: he's suffering from massive ptsd from the get-go, tries to hide it and fake being ok instead of getting help, and as a result he's a dangerously unstable mess that should never have been allowed on board of a spaceship where there's tons of ways to get a lot of people killed, like for example setting fire to the mess hall
Regarding Tuvok and Neelix.
There is one episode where Tuvok gets mentally broken somehow and Neelix is the one to take care of him.
At the end, the childlike Tuvok does say that he cares very much for him and he takes that to mean that the normal one does as well.
I really like Voyager, and Neelix was my favorite character. I cried when he left at the end of the show. Unrelated I'm mentally ill.
The thing about Neelix is that his writing changes drastically by season.
Season 1 Neelix has a few interesting ideas, has a decent character episode, and doesn't get that bad until he cripples the ship with bad cheese in the season finale.
Season 2 Neelix is the one where the writers went all out making him insufferable. It's where most of us learned to hate Neelix.
Season 3 Neelix, the writers realizing that they had created a problem toned Neelix done a lot.
Season 4 - 7 Neelix the writers lost any idea what to do with the character as his primary value to the crew ( guide / ambassador ) was lost and with the exception of a redemption episode in season 4 and a farewell episode in season 7 "Harry Kim"'d him and did nothing with him making him basically a background character.
So Neelix isn't that bad taking all of Voyager into consideration. But it's season 2 where he truly was that bad and why so many hate him.
If we can look past the 20 minutes or so of his on-screen jealousy, Neelix is indeed, not that bad.
Kes and Neelix's relationship could have been made less icky by making her character 20 ish with a lifespan of 30. She is still from a short lived species, there is still the tragedy of dying young, but she is unquestionably an adult. They could even have written in a way to extend her lifespan after a couple of sesaons. If that sounds familiar, it is because that is what happened with Saru on Discovery. And that was awesome.
Or, an here's a crazy concept, give his species the same life span as Kes. Then not only would it be way less ick vibes, but it'd add a subtle layer to him that one could find impressive. Yeah, he wasn't perfect by any means... but all those skills he's learned an information he knows suddenly seems very impressive when you realize he's got the life span of a house cat.
The age isn't the only issue, making her 20 doesn't change her upbringing.
Neelix is a creep... and the part that makes him the worse:
The Writers didn't see that as Creepy!
My boy Saru was one of my favorite characters on Discovery! And I was so happy when he found true love with the President of Vulcan and married her in the series finale!
But her age is meaningless because as a number it is completely situational dependent on how fast her planet does one lap around the star.
Neelix's Genocide survival backstory makes me think he wants to help Tuvok by getting him to embrace his emotions.
The problem is that isn't really "helping" him. Which doesn't really change the argument that ignoring someones culture and preferences isn't a good thing...
I am going to say this. I actually like Voyager. Its not the strongest Star Trek series, nor my favorite, but I do like it. That said, I always have to say that the series greatest weakness was that the story writers were never willing to fully commit to the premise of the story. They had the crew completely stranded from the Federation and such, but aside from a handful of episodes, the problems that would arise from said stranding are usually handled such that they are all (to use a common phrase from another channel) "Super easy, barely an inconvenience." Half the crew are Marquis and liable to cause heads to butt against each other, but this fact is almost forgotten once Seska's betrayal is revealed and was barely used before that point. Essentially it was like the writers didn't want their premises to have an actual impact on the stories they wrote.
Neelix was kind of a victim of this. The pilot kind of presented the idea that he would essentially be a friendly and furry Quark-type (like stated in the video), but the writers couldn't have a character with negative character traits, so that was quickly shaved away. Once they shaved away the wheelin' and dealin', the only thing they kept was that he knew a good deal about the section of the quadrant they were in, but by necessity that had to be dropped halfway through the series. Likewise, his relationship with Kes was probably the writers realizing the hole they put themselves in by making Kes chronologically two years old. They couldn't do anything to develop that relationship without giving Neelix a rather HORRIFIC character trait (which in this case I do applaud them for not developing that). But then they also did give Neelix some rather bad traits like being overbearing and protective of Kes when it came to Paris.... Which then started to pewter away and finally was completely gone once Kes was gone.
That said, I do like the times that Voyager actually focuses on Neelix in episodes. I liked the episodes mentioned in the video, as well as the episode where Neelix gets involved in criminal activity at a station, because he needed to get a map for Voyager because he no longer knew what waited ahead of them. And while I completely agree that Neelix is completely an ass when it came to Tuvok, I also liked the episode with the space elevator in the planet, where the two are stuck trying to repair to help the others on it, and after Tuvok severely dismissed something Neelix brought up about the situation, Neelix does go back with something like "I know you think I am a fool and you don't like me, but I need you to LISTEN TO ME". Which I suppose means the writers were hoping to aim for Neelix's poking at Tuvok to be kind of like him trying to earn the Vulcan's respect and possible friendship?
I never bought half the crew being Maquis. There's simply no way that a Maquis raider could carry half of Voyager's crew complement.
I was today years old when I first heard the term "a Hard on you could do pull ups on"...well played
My partner and I love Voyager (sometimes ironically but genuinely in many aspects too), and from our frequent rewatches we both came to the conclusion that Neelix isn't that bad, and in fact is endearing and a little tragic. I wish the writers did more with him, because they seemed to try and shoehorn him into this Jar Jar Binks kind of character, but there are plenty of episodes where I really appreciate his character.
He was shoehorned into way too many episodes. Well maybe 25% too many.
I also see the potential, but it was so badly executed I just flinch.
If they didn't over-use him on mundane stuff, made it so he was a proper guide and did it well, it could have worked. Had the ship contain a few unique characters that where not Starfleet, and how that all blended to make this trip back to known space survivable. However... they also did nothing with the Marque and they could have been great too....
So, sadly, writers fault all around.
I bought Neelix's cookbook a month ago. It's neat, because there's info from the prop master about how they made certain foods and drinks for the screen.
Yeah, the Neelix/Kes dynamic just feels icky, particularly given the nearly 20-year real world age gap between the two actors involved. Voyager really messed up hiring Luc Besson as a creative consultant for the pilot.
More seriously, one of the worst things about “Tuvix” as an episode is what a wasted opportunity it was for the Tuvok and Neelix relationship. Deep Space 9 obviously would have done something with two characters who spent weeks sharing a body, mind, and memories. But it seems like even TNG would have done something to make it so Tuvix and his death had some lasting impact on how they interacted after that.
So-here's my headcanon: *Neelix and Kes **_never_** had a romantic relationship.* Neelix saying that they did was a way to _protect_ this young, naïve babe (both meanings) from being the target of all manner of unsavory characters they had to do business with in order to survive.
Even once they joined the crew of Voyager, Neelix kept up the "act" to protect Kes from getting Kirked by Tom or Harry.
It was a moment of growth for Kes to step out permanently from that protection, and it was one that Neelix accepted.
As if Odo and Kira didn’t feel like an older mentor taking advantage of a protege who was desperate for stability.
Love them both, but together, gross.
@@BorderlineEnlightenment Gross indeed
@@BorderlineEnlightenment Oh yikes. I never did the math. Odo was ELEVEN when DS9 started.
@@BorderlineEnlightenment Which one was the mentor and which one was the protege?
I’m having trouble finding why now, but I thought Odo was hundreds of years old in his substance as a changeling, and the actor was in his mid-50s, but Odo as a sentient being was only a teenager character. He just chose to make himself look like his “father” Doctor Mora and took on the personality of a grizzled detective because he read about it. But other than his natural aptitude for following evidence and seeking “order”, he has very little life experience and confidence in relationships.
Whereas Kira Nerys was the one who was a veteran insurgent since she was a teenager and is in her mid-30s by the end of the show.
That may be the same thing you meant, but all of the different identities misaligning is part of what Odo/Nerys not feel so gross as a pairing to me, even if they weren’t a good match for other reasons.
My favorite Neelix moment is in "Learning Curve". It's even a Neelix/Tuvok moment. Growing up, I was much more Tuvok than Neelix - I also found Neelix annoying as I watched Voyager when it was in its original run. I felt sympathy and admiration for Tuvok in this episode, even when I knew that the writers were trying to get us to sympathize with the former Maquis. The scene with the brittle Keela flower and Neelix's empathetic communication with Tuvok's situation struck a chord with me. In that scene, Neelix doesn't ridicule or bombast about the virtues of being "a regular guy" but gently reminds him that even though he's different, finding flexibility in his worldview will help him achieve the team-related goals he wants to achieve. The message that you don't have to give up your identity to work with other people with different identities is one that is Star Trek to the core.
They did the age thing with the genders reversed on DS9 a few times. Technically, everyone who dated Jadzia was going out with a much older woman. It was sometimes brought up. Usually when she talked to Sisko and he pointed out that Worf was so much more immature than she's is supposed to be. The didn't lean on it too hard but it was a part of the character and acknowledged. But it was also done a couple of times for Jake. When he was a teen dating a woman paying for college by Dabo girling and when he was trying to get it on with the creativity vampire. It was acknowledged for the Dabo girl, and part of the plot. Not particularly well handled but there was an attempt. The Muse episode was bad. So it kinda didn't matter that the age thing had no commentary. But it was supposed to be a vampire trope so the age thing was baked in.
I don't really get the whole large age gaps being inherently creepy thing. If there both mentally capable of giving consent and they both do and there no coercion or manipulation or something else that would be dodgy even if they were the same age then be can't object on moral grounds.
Ok, but Dax never (to our knowledge) pursued partners who would be legally unable to consent.
We’re never given any idea as to when Kes’ people are considered physically or mentally mature. If we did know for certain that a two year old Ocampa was definitely considered an adult, that would give Kes the autonomy to tell Neelix to back off. If she’s not considered an adult, maybe a young adult at best, then her naïveté with Neelix makes more sense, but also means she is too young for him. They may have been trying to give themselves narrative wiggle room by not defining that clearly right away, but the longer it went on, the more uncomfortable the relationship became as Kes clearly was an adult, but still treated like a teen, at best, by Neelix.
The slow push in during the murder bit was a nice touch
20:40 i loved that episode that line Jetrel delivers "when I saw that blinding light, brighter than a thousand suns, I knew at that moment, exactly what inhad become." A nice retelling of how the scientist from the Manhattan Project may have felt.
It's his "I am become death, destroyer of worlds" moment.
Might make an OK movie
[Whispers] "She's TWO, by the way." Got me way more than it should have. Haha
Epstein has entered chat.
I tend to think of Neelix as Voyager's Westley. the writers basically put a sign on him saying "this is the guy you're going to love!" without any idea of what to actually do with him. thus, an easy target for fan backlash.
I'd like to think that the "short lifespan / fast aging" thing was never about Neelix, and that supposed to make Kes a little more interesting. They probably wanted to have themes about seizing the day, and living in the moment, etc
That way, the implications for her relationship with Neelix would be an unwanted side-effect, rather than being the goal. It would explain why they never seemed to want to do anything with those unfortunate implications
Kes is a character in her own right after all. Aspects of her character are important because of what they say about her, not just because of what they say about the man who's with her
One episode that shows the viewers more of the inside of Neelix's head that forgot to mention is the episode on the space station at the Nekrid expanse where Neelix fears his usefullness is coming to an end because hes never been beyond it, so he tries, almost in a manic phase to find a map. He ends up meeting one of his old associates there and becaise hes so desperate, he puts aside his morals to help even though he ends up doing some highly illegal things to accomplish his goals. At the end, Janeway confronts him with the question (and im paraphrasing here its been a long time since i viewed it) "Did you have such little faith in this crew?" And instead of putting him off the ship, she gave him 2 weeks to a month of scrubbing out the sewer system of Voyager.
"Well, you killed Tuvix for way less, so..."
The idea behind Neelix being an outsider to the crew was an interesting and compelling idea. One they were sort of already flirting with, with half of the crew being Maquis... but as is with everything to do with Voyager, everyone and everything is let down with how miserably executed the show ended up. Imagine people as talented as the folks behind DS9 writing for Voyager, and how much more interesting Neelix would have ended up as a result.
That being said as someone who got into the shows in the late 2017-2018... and Voyager's horrendous storytelling gaffs being as absolutely shit-tastic as they were... Neelix is a core reason why I fell in love with the franchise (Star Trek) in the first place. Voyager, Neelix, Tom Paris, Chakotay, Kes, Seven of Nine... all of these characters and then some being so horribly characterized and written told me: "Ohhhhh the people who make this shit aren't taking it seriously so I don't either..."... like if this show was Battlestar Galactica, The Expanse, or any other "serious" kind of SCI-FI i wouldn't be here right now... but its not. Star Trek is absolutely ridiculous... and it took me watching one of the worst series in the franchise to realize it... and I love that for the series. Thank you, Voyager. I love you.
Indeed. So much about Voyager would have been improved if the writers from DS9 had been writing for Voyager. Alas for VOY, however, they were already busy writing for DS9! And by the time that wasn’t the case anymore, the damage had been done.
I am of the age bracket, but not of the awareness.
This is normal for me. I am autistic but was not dignosed until my 30's, so I didn't know why I engaged with media different from my peers, simply that I did.
Namely, I can only keep up with a maximum of 3 media projects at a time if I am to digest and understand it, and that I NOPE when people try to force me to have an opinion before I've actually formed one.
This means I played the Mass Effect Triolgy outside of the context of the hype machine and the fanboy butthurt about the ending.
This means I've never read Twilight cause it's not my thing, but I am still Very Interested in conversations around it.
This means I got into Trek via my trekkie parents, even more blissfully unaware of the fandom than I.
I marathoned TNG, DS9, and VOY in 2015 to 2016, and Neelix was deeply endearing to me WHEN HE WASN'T BEING A JEALOUS CREEP. And when he said farewell? To me, that's where the series ended.
I tried watching ENT and couldn't make it past the decontamination contrivance 😂
Give ENT another chance, for Porthos.
Yeah. ENT caught a lot of flak for that one. They even mocked it themselves in later seasons. Have you ever seen the clip where Archer is in the decon chamber rubbing the de-con gel all over his pet Beagle?
@@douglaswolfen7820I find that scene strangely arousing and hate myself for it.
@@steveng.clinard1766 that's amazing. You should go meet some furries, I'm sure you can find someone who'll roleplay a beagle for you
Or do you want to be the beagle?
@@steveng.clinard1766 eh, I won't yuk other's yum. In my opinion our genitals responding to odd things is why we have a word for Atypical Things That Are Gratifying: kink.
Nothin wrong with being into something titilating. My issue is I wasn't there for that and was made deeply uncomfortable.
I'll probably try again with some friends after getting high enough to take myself less seriously lol
I think Nelix and Tuvok made a better couple 4:04 When Tu'vok lost his memory and learned to feel emotions, the only person he wanted around him was Nelix. Deep down, he loved Nelix but could not express those feelings. When I say love, Nelix was Tu'vok's best friend. When Nelix left the ship, Tu'vok even danced for him.
Nelix was eventually successful in getting Tu'vok to be friends. But it was always that way from day one.
Even with your buddy Tu'vix, we learn they are inseparable.
I dunno, Tu'vix was pretty separable...
@@nicholaspeterman9111 Fortunately so.
@@nicholaspeterman9111much to the detriment of the depthful storytelling. As was so tragically often the case. 😢
Neelix basically became Gopher and Isaac from The Love Boat.
The only Neelix episode I like was when he was revived from death and found his people’s afterlife didn’t exist. Of course that lasted about as long as the warp speed limit on TNG.
Wow...now I want to pull up some love boat
I will say that he had some great stories. The one where he actually died, was revived and became incredibly depressed because he didn't go to the afterlife. And his final story on the show was great as well. I don't hate Neelix at all, I kind of like him.
Although Neelix is deeply annoying for Tuvok, Tuvok is an absolute asshole for much of the run to Neelix - he absolutely refuses to meet him halfway, to show him any respect or appreciate his abilities, even when he's demonstrably correct e.g.Learning Curve when Neelix picks him up on his inability to train Marquis crew
The Kes - Neelix relationship would be much funnier if Kes was two thousand years old and just humouring Neelix
As a character? No. And even the implementation of the character is not bad. What was bad is that the show kind of forgot whatever it wanted to do with him at some point and turned him into comic relief. I suspect he was supposed to be kind of like Guinan. Maybe a bit more flippant but he'd have been a sort of guide/therapist. But then the show started to use other characters for the therapist portion and it realized that the idea of a guide wouldn't work after awhile and the actor had a contract so the writers said... "uhhhh... he's a cook that acts funny!"
Basically it was more the fault of what the show did with him rather than him. I feel the same way about Jodie Whitakers time on Dr Who - she is great. Whitaker was up to do whatever the show wanted to do with her in any random episode. And she isn't quite up to the acting talent of Capaldi (Who could elevate mediocre material by acting ability alone) but she tried really hard. But everyone behind the scenes forgot what they wanted to do with her and just left her flailing.
Jodie was no capaldi, but with jodie I always felt that she had the colin baker problem from the 80s. Mainly chibnall seemed to have no idea what really to do with her. Her doctor not being as good as say 9-12 seemed to be a script issue.
So basically what you said. And yeah with neelix and sadly a lot of the voyager cast it felt like they just lost what they wanted to do with them. Or noticed that it didn't work.
Great breakdown of the character. Totally agree. For me, the contact high from being with Kes was the biggest problem. Once Kes was written off the show, everything, including Neelix, started to click.
14:59
Get ol "One Ear" some ointment for that BURN
Neelix has such a good character arc, he genuinely becomes a better person!
It's been mentioned before by others, but I'm a little surprised you didn't bring up the episode where Tuvok has suffered a traumatic brain injury and he and Neelix become real friends. What stood out to me is that Neelix has a friendly Tuvok...but once the Doctor works out how to cure Tuvok, there is no crisis for Neelix. He likes this more open version of his friend, but he urges Tuvok (who is resistant because he likes Neelix too in this state) to take the cure and become himself because, as Neelix puts it, he would be a poor friend if he puts his own feelings above Tuvok's well being, and the crew's safety.
Nelix is still more useful than Jar Jar Binks.
Nelix can cook, badly. But can cook.
Regarding Kes, my personal head-canon was that the reason for her being "2 years old" was that maybe her planet had a very large or slow orbit in their star system and each orbit was about 12 terran years (similar to Jupiter). At least, that would make some sense, as, per that example, two jupiter years would be about 24 earth years.
Anytime I think about rewatching Voyager, I remember Neelix and do something else instead.
I agree. He was just cringe. I can't watch him.
"Subsumed"
What disappointed me about Neelix was that he was supposed to be the Traveling Merchant character, the guy who has been around the Quadrant, seen things, knew things. The guy who can say "I know these people, here is how to get the best deal from them." We got something like that a couple times, but not enough. Voyager would have been just fine without his help.
IMO the episode where Neelix had his near death experience when the videans stole his lungs really brought out the way Kes really cared about him the way a friend cares about another friend and less like a lover relationship like the way they were portrayed at first. Neelix had many other life changing events that really defined his character as a true member of the crew and not just as a background person. A major defining moment was when he broke the law with his old friend to get a map when Voyager was about to move past where he was familiar with and he was afraid his usefulness would be over so he broke the law of the trading post trying to help his friend Wix and at the same time help voyager trying to do the right things for the wrong reasons and after it was all over he actually became a better person and crew member
😢😮
I know the Neelix/Kes pairing (and Tom/Kes pairing) made us feel icky but I think their motivation was they just wanted to play around with a new concept of a species that develops extremely rapidly and has a short lifespan, I think they believed that would be enough to slap away any uneasy feelings about the age, but then again they could have just not had them in a relationship at the same time and still explored that concept. It would have made more sense I guess if she exclusively dated other Ocampa because they could better understand her situation. At the very least they could have said that Talaxians also have a shorter lifespan or something, doesn't have to be 10 years but at least it would make more sense if it was shorter than a human life span, like 30 or 40 years or something.
I think the Idea with Kes was for her to age with the travel. They planned for a 7 season series and got a character who would reach her maximum life expectancy at the end of the journey.
Always thought a better name would have been "Star Trek: Gilligan"
I find the "Kes is only 2" argument a bit dumb. Its established that her species grows and matures faster. To live to live to be about 8 would put their aging about 10x faster than a human which puts her about the equivalent of 20. In just 2 more years, she would out age Nelix.
This disgust would be like having disgust in an accepted fantasy trope of humans and elves. By an elf's standard, a 100 year old human would be about the same as a 10 year old.
What i can get behind is that Nelix being toxic at first. His character does outgrow this though.
Holy crap Steve! Your comment of "a hard-on you could do pull ups on" almost killed me!🤣🤣🤣
I mean, there is a reason why SFDebris calls him a shithead.
For example, I remember one episode where he and Tuvok were on a space elevator with some scientists, and Neelix stopped the elevator in mid-air because Tuvok wasn't being nice to him and wasn't listening to him... Even though that meant that if they stopped the lift that way, they might never get it going again and there would be some deaths... I am not sure about the details, as it has been a while since I watched this episode, but for me it was one of those moments that confirmed my hatred for this character.
Nothing against Ethan Phillips though.
Neelix nearly destroyed the ship with his cheese. I still think his coffee "evolved" Tom and Janeway into salamanders, not going faster than impossible. His "relationship" with Kes was often regrettable. And he was the "survival expert" who said, "You stand in front of the cave with all the bones, while I leave." He was the Gilligan of the island named Voyager.
Ah, but, if Kes' people only live nine years, then she may be only two in real life terms... but proportionally, when Neelix and Kes first get together, she'd be the equivalent of *_qwikmaffs_* fifteen years old.
Oh dear.
yeahhhhh, that math ain't mathing, and it's definitely _not_ because _you're_ the wrong one. jeezus, what were those writers thinking.
Think of it this way, they are both aliens so does it matter? We don't know what Ocampans or Talaxians consider age appropriate. I never saw anything wrong with their relationship other than he could be stupidly jealous. In some ways he was less psychologically mature than her! Plus, there are current irl societies where 15 is an adult. I am not saying its right. I am not saying it is wrong. It just IS. I have no opinion on what age makes us adults. Americans say 18, MANY societies say 16 which seems to be very common, some way lower than that. As an anthropology student, legit the FIRST thing you are taught on day 1 in the classroom is never judge another culture by one's own standards because morals, ethics, taboos and customs are not REAL....they are not some inherent things that are handed down by god or the universe. They are society-based. (We cannot even judge human sacrifice, because it is not universally taboo. I disagree with it of course, but I don't judge the Aztecs) You are looking at their relationship through the lens of a modern-day American standard. (nothing magical happens to the human mind or body at age 18 is my point) We don't say ew on Romeo for Juliet. Different time, different culture. Who cares? Romeo is not some perv or anything lol, we don't say there was something sick about Shakespeare for writing it. (Although he may have been sick for writing Titus Andronicus lol, but I dunno....I love it. Damn near a horror story!
edit: unless you are just being funny and I didn't know how to pick up on snark and sarcasm and wrote that for nothing lol
@@LexYeen
I just wish I could explain where such a moronic, creepy idea-
It was Berman.
It MUST have been Berman.
@@LexYeen We all know writers can't do math.
As Mormon apologists might say, "just shy of her 3rd Birthday"
Two of my favourite Neelix and Tuvok episodes are Rise and Riddles. Its show that they both have respect for each other at some point in each of the episode's.
I always liked Neelix, I mean sure he’s often written to be annoying and needlessly possessive of Kes, but I felt the performance was great and there’s some episodes I thought really stand out for him, like the one where he dies and sees no afterlife and cannot comprehend life the same way. It actually showed some real depth that I didn’t see from many other characters.
It's easy to forget that Neelix is constantly terrified of his life going back to the way it was before he was saved by voyager. All his commonly highlighted flaws are either components of his character that were supposed to be problematic (he used to trade with terrible people, just to survive, and hadn't had a friend since the end of his world), or come from a place of fear of becoming the person his circumstances had forced him to become. He doesn't just grow as a character, but he also grows as a narrative device for the better projection of the show's themes.
I love to see the Star Trek universe merging with the Benson universe. Too bad Neelix couldn't meet Odo.
I get what you mean re an in-universe explaination not making Neelix/Kes ok - and you know what, I agree, its still isn't ok. My question is how should scifi (or if we encounter aliens, real life) handle species with radically different lifespans? In Mass effect, the Asari near-universally have interspecies relationships (another somewhat iffy concept but lets bypass that for now) and that nearly always results in a massive age difference between them and their partners - nearly all Asari partners have much shorter lifespans, including humans; from an Asari POV, a human 80 years old is just about old enough to think about leaving home and striking out for themselves.
Every time Steve digs at Voyager. I always laugh out loud 😂
The idealism and human 'Utopia' that is Starfleet (and the Federation as a whole) is such a foreign concept to most everyone in the early years of travel the Delta quadrant. I've always seen Neelix's story as a nod to the 'we are a product of our surroundings/Trading Places' vibe - very similar to Eddie Murphy's character on both sides of the coin. When we meet him, he's an emotionally damaged scavenger, trying to just get by (and also run away with his girlfriend, which itself, is not an uncommon trope for those considered 'young and in love'). When he bargains to get himself onto Voyager, he thinks he's doing it for himself, to get ahead, as a way to secure himself and get a foothold to move on to bigger and better.
That 'uncommon in the Delta quadrant' Star Trek idealism actually ends up appealing to him. I've always seen him as genuinely decent person, just caught up in the rough and scrapy area of the Delta quadrant where we first find him. Once he's finally met his basic needs and surrounded by people who can be an example of just what people can do when they try to better themselves, he whole-heartedly embraces the idea of also working to make himself a better person. Granted, some of it is personal pride, to show that he 'has something to offer' (again, he came on to Voyager to serve his own needs, but then realize he really IS getting the better end of that deal) and wants to do more to 'give back' and earn his place (we see an episode specifically devoted to that idea).
As for his relationship with Mr. Vulcan - yes, the boundary crossing is definitely a thing with the constant 'I'm going to get you to show emotion' bit - which, honestly, Neelix is brand new to Vulcans - like many things on Voyager, Vulcans are simply a new and novel concept to him. Humans, by that point, have had Vulcans around for several 100 years - I guarantee you that early on (much to the chagrin of Vulcans everywhere) humans themselves were probably doing the exact same thing in their own interactions with Vulcans. Does that excuse it? No, but I feel that particular aspect is more of the writers pulling a "Nelix is us in the present, if we had Vulcans IRL". Also, despite having to fight the personal urge to 'dress it up' constantly, Neelix does legitimately try to meet Tuvok on his level via the constant refining (or un-refining?) of the Plo'meek recipe. Neelix is not dumb, but he also acknowledges his own inequality with Tuvok, intellectually, and doesn't try to force his way into more esoteric things like Vulcan meditation or Kal-toh - he sticks with his own personal strengths and engages with Mr. Vulcan from that place.
Like many things in Voyager, sadly... many things perceived as bad or poor with characters in the show is usually the result of bad (or inconsistent) writing throughout the series.
Neelix was annoying at first, but he got much better as the series went on. I thought that last scene with Tuvok when Neelix left Voyager was pretty touching.
I don’t think the fact that Kess was only 2 years old was all that creepy. It was just a throw away scifi detail about her species having a vey short lifespan. On Enterprise Tucker and T’Pol were something like 40 years apart in age.
I think you’re a little harsh on Voyager. It’s not the best Star Trek series, but it wasn’t so bad. There were some pretty good episodes.
Neelix is what helped me go through this series unironically.
it doesn't need to be an antonym of surpassed. I would suggest "eclipsed".
Nelix, Tuvok, the Doctor feed off each other so good.
FYI I think you've got potheads confused with pot *dealers*. Most of us are happy to share what we've got but aren't gonna squander our stash. If they're being pushy about it they're selling.
Kes' age with the ocampan lifecycle read to me as an attempted commentary on how tragically short life can be depending on the circumstances you're born into, but with a severely fumbled delivery.
Remember that episode where Tom married Kes and had a daughter who married Kim.
Several bro rules were definitely broken there.
I always liked Neelix since he tried his best and I felt like he just wanted companionship since I imagine it's a lonely life being a Salvager.
But yeah they should have not gone with the dating path. Would have been better if she and him were just close friends.
I think it's a bit unfair, especially the relationship with Kes. It seems like everyone forgets, that cultures (especially imaginar alien races) have different social values and norms. I find it awkward too, however, if that's a normal thing they are coming from, it should be accepted. From our western point of view it feels gross.
Neelix has some remarkable character arc: from beeing basically a scavanger to becoming a respected member of the crew, cook, counsel, ambassador, uncle and a friend.
I remember quite well the episode where he did this "illegal" trade in order to get information for the Voyager to navigate through a non catopographed area in the Delta quadrant because he had self doubt about his presence on the Voyager once he can not longer help with his experience.
Neelix was a way deeper character than Tom Paris or B'Elana Torres...
Pressuring someone to do ANYTHING they’re uncomfortable with is always gross. No means no doesn’t just mean sex. I’m a pot smoker but I’d never even think of pushing someone to smoke if they didn’t want to. You don’t know what ppl have gone through. I have known those kind of ppl tho and, well, my friends and I don’t hang with them anymore. Cause they’re an asshole. Don’t be an asshole guys.
Initially, I was convinced Janeway would quickly address the extreme age discrepancy with Neelix behind closed doors and the relationship between them would be outed as a ruse. I thought he was going to turn out to be the wayward scoundrel con-artist who, upon seeing her uniquely young overly trusting and vulnerable state, had been unable to fight his protective instincts and taken on the role of an overprotective older brother with that being the redeeming quality that would ultimately be the deciding factor in her decision to trust Neelix to remain onboard long-term.
Neelix is not a bad character however his purpose on the show was head scratching to say the least.
A character who provides "comic relief" in a drama series ends up not being funny or relieving. Instead, they become annoying which is the trap Neelix falls into. His uber-happy-upbeat-chipper personality was frequently grating to watch. It may him one note and lacking in substance.
That said, his best story "Jetrel" gave him a complexity that frequently eluded him during his seven years on board Voyager. Ethan Phillips is a talented actor who performances were always strong, but the writing often let him down as Neelix was just a side character in an ensemble that had much more interesting players in its repertoire.
But Steve, as a Vulcan Tuvok likely is a vegetarian. I wonder if Neelix ever "forgot" to mention any animal products in the mess's food and gave it to Tuvok.
7:32 In the episode “Elogium” (2x4), Neelix definitively states “It has nothing to do with not trusting you. It’s HIM I don't trust.” I'm SHOCKED that you not only didn't mention this, but no other commenter has, either.
What if Nelix had been written as a Ferengi trapped on a Federation ship in the Delta Quad?
You know, I've never hated Neelix. I know he can be irritating from time to time, and I wouldn't want to hang out with him all the time, but he's not really that bad, and there are times I think he would be a great friend to have. His sincerity really comes across well sometimes, and I think those would be the moments that matter.
I've always thought of Neelix as frankly one of the most "human" Trek characters. No particularly spectacular skills, frequently annoying, definitely flawed; but he generally means well and he tries. Boy does he try. Maybe that's why he irritated so many of us. Maybe we saw too much of ourselves.
I truly believe they wanted to have a subplot where there is a slow realization that Kes won’t survive voyager’s trek back to earth. But they off-boarded her instead of dealing with it.
Neelix isn't the worst thing about Voyager. But there's so much else to choose from. For me, the worst thing is too hard to pin down to one, because it's everything from the decision to try TNG again, but with the journey being trying to get home, to running away from everything they felt was failing about DS9, to the obsession that this has to now be THE Trek to launch a whole new network, so now we have sweeps week (not really a thing in syndication), to constantly hitting the reset button out of a belief that the best way to grow an audience for a dramatic sci-fi television series is to assume all viewers are idiots and that the best stake are no stakes.
So, if I had to pick one worst thing about Voyager, the only fair choice is Rick Berman. If the probably is systemic, and/or if the problem is "everything", best to blame the man at the top.
EDIT: I didn't even remember to mention how the Maquis vs Starfleet was thrown out the window almost immediately. Was there anyone with ambition or vision anywhere near the driver's seat?
I felt like Neelix was one of those characters that prefers the company of innocent exploration driven entities because it pulls him away from dwelling on his past. It's hard to think about the stuff that makes you sad when you spend all day with someone curious about the world.
His partner (Kes) is an 'adult' who learns incredibly quickly but has an insatiable curiosity about the universe; and from his perspective, needs a guide and protector to help her live her best life.
The Voyager crew is a group of powerful but naive individuals, with a love for exploration, and a great need for guidance and protection on their long journey to their home.
The Children of the Voyager ship (Naomi and the various other children Neelix interacts with) are curious, honest, in need of guidance, and occasionally protection from the truth.
At the end of the Day, most of Neelix' actions are centered around building a family for himself, and trying to keep that family safe. He will lie, cheat, and steal to do it. He could have been great but not every writer understood how to keep a characters internal logic consistent...
Omg!!! That pull-ups joke was exceptional!!!😂😂😂😂
I haven't watched Voyager in quite a while but the whole reason I think I was never bothered by the whole Neelix/Kess pairing is that it seemed like they were a couple in name only. Like, I could believe that they liked each other a lot, maybe even felt love, and that they chose to be attached (though it's implied IIRC that at least some of that is an arrangement of convenience). But it never seemed like they ever figured out how to be an actual couple.
Neelix was very different in S1 but I think that’s Moreso cause he had to be. IDK if the writers intended it or not but watching a sleazy con artist go to earnest and goofy once scarcity has been removed from their life and they aren’t scavenging for water can be an interesting character arc that highlights how the society we live in can bring out the worst in us because in that situation its better for our survival. If only the writers did more with that.
In the alternate universe where Voyager owned its original premise, con-man Neelix would have been of central importance to the crew, because without working replicators they’d have needed to engage in constant trade with worlds on their journey for basic resources.
Making him different enough from Quark would have needed to be something the writers kept in mind, but there could be a Spock vs Data type contrast (naturally emotional trying not to be vs naturally unemotional and trying to discover emotion), where unlike Quark idealizing greed and trying to hide his compassionate side, Neelix could have always been a little MORE untrustworthy than he acted.
Neelix had a small role in Better Call Saul, as a municipal judge who talked Kim Wexler, bored with her big bank client, into picking up some pro bono clients.
As an outsider, and someone who has lost everything due to trauma, I can relate to Neelix. Voyager being Voyager, you have to work to pull all the lore together, but Neelix does read a lot like a refugee. Especially with the little tidbits you learn about Talaxians along the way. The writers did him a major disservice with Kes' backstory. There is so much wasted potential in unexplored history beyond the little we got to see.
Watching "Riddles" last night and seeing Neelix actually be genuinely concerned for the (essentially) mindwiped Tuvok because he blames himself for not preventing it, and the moment of near mutual respect where Tuvok makes an amusing, and thoroughly illogical, comment is genuinely touching. and yet, it being Voyager, is never referenced again.
I never really found the Neelix and Kes relationship all that creepy because they're aliens. For all we know Kes' species the Ocampa's version of a romantic relationship is more like platonic friends because of how short their lifespan is (Kes clearly uses Neelix as a way to experience as much as she can before she passes and even joins Voyager knowing she will die LONG before they ever even remotely make it to the Alpha quadrant). Neelix's jealous streak is still very annoying, but his and Kes' relationship was never creepy to me. Who am I to judge an alien species on what is socially acceptable or not.
As for the behind of scenes writing reasons... yeah gross. Same reason I find a lot of those excuses are more written for fetishy reasons (a young woman needs big knowledgable older man to teach her the ways of the world). Just gross.
For in-universe I don't really think I can judge Neelix negatively for it. Aliens can have rapidly different ages and age ranges of acceptable romantic partners. Should, a Human and a Vulcan relationship be considered icky because Vulcans mature much slower than humans, but are physically way older and live two-three times longer? It is so dumb to call out Neelix without calling out T'Pol (who was 64-68 when she started having feelings for then eventually having a relationship with Trip who was in his late-20s/early-30s) or Sarek in the same breath.