Thanks for another comprehensive investigation. Set track points are the heart of most of my derailments and other issues. Thanks for the heads up on metal wheels boxes. I'll look out for those next time I'm in near a peco shop/stand. Your layout geometry is kind of dependent on set track geometry, but perhaps judicious use of streamline points in key places could help. I'd love to see a trial in your excellent clear style...
Yes, I'm positive that once the wagons are given a bit of weight, it's the combination of pushing the train and the configuration of the settrack points that is causing the derailment issues! The metal wheels don't seem to make any difference to this, but, they do make the wagons run much more freely, which in turn, helps locos pull more of them - especially up curved inclines! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, very interesting video, space generally dictates what you can fit in but i think medium or long radius points will improve the situation dramatically. I know I have huge amounts of space but i can honestly say i get very few derailments, i really think the set track points are too sharp and can cause issues. I think you are very wise to thoroughly test these track formations as your enjoyment of your layout will compromised if you have no confidence all types of train movements. Laying flexi track and medium points is purely practice and perseverance and I'm sure will deliver more consistent running.
Hi Chris! Yes, I totally agree, if I had the space to use medium (or long) streamline points everywhere, I would - I use them in the small fiddle yard at the rear of the layout for instance! Unfortunately, using them in the marshalling yard and goods yard areas would severely impede the length of the sidings, and therefore how many wagons I'd be able to have in each siding! As the settrack points only seem to be a problem when pushing trains over them, I'm going to try and design the layout so that operations can be performed by pulling the rolling stock! All the best, Ian.
An interesting video Ian and I have also enjoyed reading the comments and your responses. When I was deciding on building Elvenhome, which is my first N gauge layout, I was worried about flexitrack. However, I really wanted to build and design the layout to fit what I wanted and not be limited by the fixed radii of set track curves. I also regularly saw negative comments about first track set points. So Code 55 was the answer for me. Now flexitrack does take some getting used you there is no doubt, but it is well worth the effort. There are several good videos on PECO's UA-cam site (with Charlie Bishop I think in all of them moonlighting from his own channel) that show you how to work with flexitrack. I have a set of tracksettas, but of course, the radii of my curves never seems to fit the radii of the various tracksetta. The only one I regularly use is the straight section. It is brilliant both for ensuring straight sections are indeed straight, but particularly for getting a bent piece of flexitrack straight again. I can't remember if from earlier videos you have the three key tools need for flextrack. In case you haven't these are Xuron cutters to cut the the track, a small file to remove burrs and a bent piece of rail to fit track joiners (bend it long enough to fit one joiner on completely leaving just half a joiner length at the end so when you put you joiner on to add to the track it can't be pushed back). All of this is a long winded way of saying very gently, you need to conquer flexitrack. Your layout design is great but you will gain so much by being freed from set track radii (not least ditching first radius points - they get a bad press whenever any one in a forum or facebook groups ask about them). Stephen
Hi Stephen! I agree, I really do! Well, pretty much agree with everything you've said! However, I've used streamline points and flexitrack in the design wherever I've got space to do so! In the yard areas if I were to use streamline medium radius points, the operating areas would be so short there'd be no point in having them unless I was running trains with only a few wagons! I'm persisting with this crazy notion of using settrack points out of a necessity to save space! They actually work great most of the time, and only seem to have problems when wagons are being pushed through them! So, if I can eliminate having to push trains, then the problem goes away, and I can keep them on the layout, so I'm now looking at changing the track plan! To be honest, I'm not sure whether they get a bad reputation because they're terrible, or because bad information keeps being repeated about them parrot fashion! That's why I'm performing all of these experiments I guess! Enjoy the NGS show this weekend! All the best, Ian.
Even if you have short sidings, it does not mean you have to have short trains. The sidings are often for sorting wagons.and the loco can reverse onto each set of wagons in turn to build up the rake.
@@iansngauge one more thing then I will keep quiet. The set track points are well engineered and do exactly what they are built to do. But, and it is a big but, their geometry means longer wheelbase locos and wagons will struggle with them. Interestingly continental modellers don’t have as much problem because their models are built to cope with tighter curves. But British outline models do. As your fleet grows you won’t be sure until you can try them on the layout what you can use there and what you can’t. In the end it will all come down to which compromise you go with to get closest to what you want as you say in the video.
@@davidrauger - Hi Dave, that's a good point! But having short sidings means I'll have to keep more of my rolling stock in their boxes and not on the layout! Cheers, Ian.
@@Elvenhome - Oh, Stephen, never feel the need to keep quiet here! You're one of the reasons I've come back to the hobby, and I respect your opinions greatly! It's interesting what you say about longer wheelbase stock! I wouldn't expect an A4 or a 9F to get through a series of settrack points, but was surprised that the Ferry wagons had problems - especially as I'd previously had a train full of CCT and GUV vans navigate them! There definitely seems to be a sweet spot in wheelbase that causes 'medium' sized wagons to derail! I wonder why our continental modelling friends have rolling stock that is better suited to tighter curves? Cheers, Ian.
Hello Ian, Euan the Growler in comments below makes a good point about the tight radius of the settrack points. As you know I use Kato track and I removed all the tight radius points they make as I had no end of derailment problems. I used the bigger radius points Kto make and have never had issues. John.
Hi John! Yes, I remember you changing your points for longer radius ones! I have so little space though that I really want to try and make the settrack points work! I'm now looking at modifying the track plan so that I don't need to push trains at any point, although that is quite a challenge in itself! All the best, Ian.
Hi John - Wow what a really interesting update. I have seen all sorts of problems when it comes to using points in different locations and lot to do with lack of weight in wagons especially when it comes to goods yards. Now as I am building a replica I have no choice of the track plan apart from points and couplings. I am hoping as I have such a large area to use only large points code 55, along with Hunt Magnetic Couplings, oh and change all wheels to metal ones. So having watched your update which I must tell you is excellent and covers most problems that I have seen along with videos of the testing, with a lot of trepidation I can only wonder how my layout will perform. Looking forwards to more videos trying to solve this problem. The comments by the way are truly excellent and I learnt a lot from reading them.
Thanks very much Chris! I'm sure as you have lots of space for medium or long streamline points then you won't suffer from any of these problems - as long as you add a little weight to your wagons! Also, I'm now trying to design the marshalling yard and goods yard areas so I don't have to push a train into them - which should theoretically make my problems go away too! Yes, the comments here have been excellent! All the best, Ian.
Pondering, pondering…. Hi Ian, when I first started thinking about building a layout I watched hundreds of UA-cam videos of building layouts and what stuck with me was people with the best running layouts used larger radius points. I fortunately have enough space to only use large radius electrofrog code 80 points and the trains run really well I think because of this but, they don’t always work perfectly. But what I also did was try and keep things simple track wise, although that’s easier said than done at times! It is all a compromise I’ve found with building a layout you can have one thing but not another, very frustrating and maybe something to ponder over… Cheers and sorry no real practical solutions for you, John
Morning John! Like you, I love a cuppa and a good ponder! I wish I had space for large radius points, but my sidings would end up being a few inches long if I used them! Even the medium radius points are really too long when trying to build ladders and runarounds! It's interesting that you mention keeping the track plan simple, as that's what I'm currently working on in RailModeller Pro - like you say, it's definitely easier said than done though! I'm now trying to figure out if I can have a layout where I only need to pull trains, and not push them, because I really, really want to use the settrack points! More pondering required... All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, I love watching your videos which highlight this type of problem. Flexi track is a learning curb but once you get the hang of it, it isn't as bad as you think. I started using it from a very early age, only due to it being a lot cheaper than Setrack Lol! Keep this type of video up! as I have noticed so many other modellers are learning from you! and there is no point to a layout unless it runs smoothly! All the best Tony.
Hi Tony! Thank you! I love flexitrack - when it goes down smoothly! I much prefer my curves to be settrack, as then at least I know that the geometry of a curve is what I was going for! I'll be using flexitrack for most of the straights on Shelfington eventually, as like you say, it's much cheaper than settrack! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, as usual a great insight into track testing. I have had similar problems with previous layouts when I used set track, and as you rightly point out streamline points invariably involve and lead to flexible track. I took the opportunity when designing my new Hayridge layout to use medium radius streamline points, and so far, (touch wood). They have performed perfectly. Looking forward to seeing more progress as you continue. All the best. Allan
Morning Allan! Yes, I've used the medium radius streamline points everywhere on the layout except for in the yard areas! Here I used settrack points in order to save space, but maybe I'm going to have to bite the bullet and go down the flexible track route, with the set of problems that brings - especially when trying to temporarily affix it to a foam base!! More pondering required! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, Another good, thorough and patient analysis! I watched this before bed last night, but no ideas about it came to me subconsciously overnight. It looks like you've had some good suggestions in comments from others though. On streamline points: they don't necessarily need to lead to flexi track - Peco say they're compatible with settrack. When Endoor was (for a long time) just loose track I had some Electrofrog streamline points - the only issue with mixing with settrack was that the length didn't match any of the types of short settrack, so I "balanced" the loop with a set of points to nowhere on the other side of the oval. But a short section of straight flexitrack somewhere shouldn't be too tricky - if I remember correctly you did that with the fiddle area that you had behind the backscene. Good luck with the ongoing struggle against the troublesome track 'n' trucks, and thanks for sharing your account of it.
Thanks Jonathan! Yeah, streamline points are definitely compatible with settrack - I know because I use them all over the place (like the area behind the backscene), just not in the yard areas of the layout as they take up more space than I'd like! The issue with them is that you need to use flexitrack to bring the "turn route" back parallel with the main route, as there is no settrack curve that will do the job! I'm not saying that I won't end up using streamline points eventually, I'd just like to explore every possibility of using settrack points first! I'm currently exploring the possibility of designing the track so that I only ever need to pull trains over the points, although that is proving trickier than I thought it would be! Thanks again! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian. What a vexing problem. My track plan has a ladder of five coach sidings using four left-hand points in succession. The points are PECO medium radius Unifrog, Streamline items. My baseboard is "only" 4ftx6ft and the ladder will be essential to save space. I hope the Streamline versions will prove to be less trouble than the Settrack ones you have used!
Hi Paul! Vexing, that's a great word to describe the situation! I'm sure the streamline points will be much better at handling the situation when trains are pushed over them! I'm now trying to eliminate having to push trains at all, as I'd really like to use the settrack points in order to save space! All the best, Ian.
Great video as always. I really wish they would make larger radius set track points. I've always had issues with the 1st radius ones. I don't think they're fit for modern stock. Most other non british brands have larger radius set track points :(
Thank you! Yes, larger set track points would be a great thing - or even to have set track curves that would 'straighten up' streamline points, as I always find it a fiddly job to cut the flexitrack to the right length! Cheers, Ian.
It's possible to combine set track and flexi track. So you can have set track curves and straights should you wish whilst using the flexi track points. Just get a few fish plates (and insulated rail joiners if required) to knock them together.
Yep, I'm already using medium radius streamline points where I can, such as in the small fiddle yard at the rear of the layout! I'm only using settrack points in the marshalling yard, quarry and goods yard areas as space is at a premium in these places! All the best, Ian.
Thanks very much Clive! I've still beavering away at the problem! If I can eliminate the need to push a train, then the problem goes away, so I'm trying to come up with a solution that removes the need for pushing on Shelfington itself! That's no mean feat though! All the best, Ian.
Sorry for my tardiness - I'm late! I got some Peco wagons in a job lot and I very quickly put those I didn't want back onto ebay. I found the Peco wagons were not only too light but also the wheels were very poorly formed out of plastic. Some of them were badly warped. I have a similar issue with Dapol steam engines. Far too light and the flanges don't seem to be very deep. I will be trying to add weight in the future. Makes me love my minitrix even more!
Hi Simon - and sorry for my late reply! :) I've not had any warped wheels, but their lightness is definitely a problem, although that's easily fixed! I really thought changing to the metal wheels would solve some problems though - well, it has, in terms of free running, but not the derailment issues I was hoping they would! I've been staying away from Dapol steamers because of their dodgy tender drive shaft mechanism! I have a Farish Standard 5MT on order, so it will be interesting to see how that does over the points! All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge I haven't been running mine long enough to find out the shaft drive faults. But they do like to derail over certain sections. I can't run them on one of my tracks, I will have to go over it all again to check the ballast. Maybe got the odd little bit in the way. I wont be buying any more for sure.
@@ngaugeonashelf4417 - It's annoying when they won't run over sections of track, especially when other locos work fine! I think I read somewhere that Dapol are redesigning the drive shaft mechanism, so it will be interesting to hear reports of how effective the new mechanism is when it arrives! Cheers, Ian.
I am hitting a similar issue in my first iteration of a new layout. Was wondering if this was primarily an issue of lack of articulation in the coupler when compress when pushed? Glad I am not the only one facing this and there are techniques to resolve this =) Starting to see why folks have yards that are pull through...
Hi Kim! I covered the coupling articulation in my previous derailment investigation video (058) and decided that it wasn't the cause of the problem! Certainly, the Dogfish wagons have ample lateral movement, which doesn't seem to matter when crossing the back to back points! Yes, pull through yards are definitely a great idea, and is something I'm looking at to fix this problem on my main layout! All the best, Ian.
Very good Ian. Set track points have such severe angles you will continually have issues. Looking at your plan I can see where a couple of 3 way points could be installed in place of two set track points. I haven't measured but I bet a dollar on one 3 way point taking up less room then 2 set track points joined one after the other. Hmmm I can see more pondering by your good self😅 cheers Euan
Thanks Euan! Yes, a 3 way point would take up a smidge less space, but I think they're only available in code 55, where Shelfington is all code 80! But yes, more pondering to be done! Remember this is only a problem when pushing trains, so I'm now trying to modify the track plan so that I only ever need to pull a train! All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge very true Ian the 3 way point is code 55 but ( you just knew there would be a "but" ) You can still join code 80 track to them - all you need to do is use a fine needle file and reprofile the top of the code 80 rail. My upper Fiddle Yard is code 80 but has three 3 way points in it. Don't rule out using the two different track codes !
@@thegrowler-blackwoodngauge - Ah, I just knew you'd have a sneaky way to join the two rail codes together! I'm too new at this game to come up with such devious ideas... yet! Lol! Cheers, Ian.
I think part of the issue is the actual design of the set track points, I've got newer ones and older ones, the designs are different - older ones have the "pivot" right up next to the common crossing, where as the newer design has a shorter moving section with a pivot and a fixed section adjacent to the crossing. yoir video seems to show a similar effect to what I have seen here - the actual place where the wheel first climbs over the rail is at that pivot. with some of the points I have here its more of an issue that others, and the "bump" for want of a better phrase only applies in one direction where the moving and fixed rails meet. its not much but its why lighter vehicles have a problem. the shorter wheelbase manages it as by the time the lead axle reaches it the vehicle has already pivoted so the wheel flange doesn't catch this "bump" where as a longer vehicle can struggle. for example I have noted one set of points that will derail a 15' wheelbase PECO tank wagon pretty much every time is fine with some older GF Mk III coaches which is anything are even lighter - but a much shorter wheelbase as for the fix, well physically larger points should work, I can try there is no space here. but with the set track points they are not all identical, even if the newer type so it could be worth marking a troublesome one and swapping them about a bit if the track, as with yours, is not fixed down. otherwise I think its going to be a fine file to the inner edge of the fixed rail to add a small radius to the end to try and guide the flange around it (not tried yet, and will be a fiddle to do it)
Hi Dale! I've just had a quick look at the design of all of the settrack points on the test track, and they all look the same, and I think they're the newer type! I think you're right about the "bump" effect, although it should be noted that it doesn't occur with every wagon - or even the same wagon every time it traverses that section! Like you, I'm also confident that larger points will fix the issue, but am reluctant to give up on the settrack points completely as space is at a premium for me! I'm hoping to 'design away' the problem when it comes to the actual layout by only ever needing to pull trains through the points, and using medium radius streamline points where pushing trains can't be avoided! It's quite a tricky problem to solve though! All the best, Ian.
The Derailing Pixies strike again 😳 Apart from fishplates and jigsaws 🤯 points are the things I avoid the most 🤕 The frog area's 🐸 seem to be a place where some of the wheels suddenly fall into a hole 🕳 Much nicer having no points 😎 Very best wishes from the Emerald Isle ☘️
Good morning Paul in the Emerald Isle! Yes, those darn Pixies are a troublesome lot! No points would be good, but for me, are a necessary evil - along with fishplates! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, interesting vid which seems to raise more questions than answers, do you think wheel change helped other than providing a freer run? All the best mate , thanks for another thought provoking issue.😊
Hi Phil! That's a good question! Like you say, the free running is the main advantage, meaning a loco can pull more wagons as they offer less friction! I suppose I also like the clickety-clack sound as they pass over rail joiners, which is something you don't get when using plastic wheels! All the best, Ian.
There is probably a perfectly good reason for you using set track, but given the issues you are having maybe consider using alternatives. Maybe this is why most people use Peco points ??
Hi Malcolm! At the moment I'm undergoing testing, to see what's possible, and am trying to explain the issues I've faced along the way! Hopefully people, especially beginners like myself, will find some of the experiments useful, and allow them to avoid falling into similar traps! Like I said in the video, I could consider using Streamline points, but that would introduce issues associated with working with flexible track, which is definitely not beginner friendly! The settrack points are Peco points, and work great when pulling trains across them, so maybe the solution is to avoid pushing trains across them? Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment! All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge Ian, in my opinion (and its just that, an opinion) laying flexi-track isn't that difficult. My son has just completed a double track tail chaser layout and he's never laid any track before. All the pointwork is medium rad points, and the rest of the track is peco flexi track. To me the set track is always associated with "toy" train sets where as peco streamline is "model" railways. - but that's just an opinion. I can understand your reasoning to demonstrate the limitations of both, and some of your findings will no doubt help people when considering track for their own layouts. However the golden rule in this hobby is "Its your railway" meaning you do as you please so that is all that counts. One thing you may wish to try, is after the first left hand point from the main loop, use RH points for each siding, so that the straight section of the point forms a straight line off the main loop (if that makes sense). You may need a short spacer between the LH point and first RH point to straighten out the serpentine movement. Anyway, thanks for making these video, and sharing your results
Thanks for another comprehensive investigation. Set track points are the heart of most of my derailments and other issues. Thanks for the heads up on metal wheels boxes. I'll look out for those next time I'm in near a peco shop/stand. Your layout geometry is kind of dependent on set track geometry, but perhaps judicious use of streamline points in key places could help. I'd love to see a trial in your excellent clear style...
Yes, I'm positive that once the wagons are given a bit of weight, it's the combination of pushing the train and the configuration of the settrack points that is causing the derailment issues! The metal wheels don't seem to make any difference to this, but, they do make the wagons run much more freely, which in turn, helps locos pull more of them - especially up curved inclines! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, very interesting video, space generally dictates what you can fit in but i think medium or long radius points will improve the situation dramatically. I know I have huge amounts of space but i can honestly say i get very few derailments, i really think the set track points are too sharp and can cause issues. I think you are very wise to thoroughly test these track formations as your enjoyment of your layout will compromised if you have no confidence all types of train movements. Laying flexi track and medium points is purely practice and perseverance and I'm sure will deliver more consistent running.
Hi Chris! Yes, I totally agree, if I had the space to use medium (or long) streamline points everywhere, I would - I use them in the small fiddle yard at the rear of the layout for instance! Unfortunately, using them in the marshalling yard and goods yard areas would severely impede the length of the sidings, and therefore how many wagons I'd be able to have in each siding! As the settrack points only seem to be a problem when pushing trains over them, I'm going to try and design the layout so that operations can be performed by pulling the rolling stock! All the best, Ian.
An interesting video Ian and I have also enjoyed reading the comments and your responses. When I was deciding on building Elvenhome, which is my first N gauge layout, I was worried about flexitrack. However, I really wanted to build and design the layout to fit what I wanted and not be limited by the fixed radii of set track curves. I also regularly saw negative comments about first track set points. So Code 55 was the answer for me. Now flexitrack does take some getting used you there is no doubt, but it is well worth the effort. There are several good videos on PECO's UA-cam site (with Charlie Bishop I think in all of them moonlighting from his own channel) that show you how to work with flexitrack. I have a set of tracksettas, but of course, the radii of my curves never seems to fit the radii of the various tracksetta. The only one I regularly use is the straight section. It is brilliant both for ensuring straight sections are indeed straight, but particularly for getting a bent piece of flexitrack straight again. I can't remember if from earlier videos you have the three key tools need for flextrack. In case you haven't these are Xuron cutters to cut the the track, a small file to remove burrs and a bent piece of rail to fit track joiners (bend it long enough to fit one joiner on completely leaving just half a joiner length at the end so when you put you joiner on to add to the track it can't be pushed back). All of this is a long winded way of saying very gently, you need to conquer flexitrack. Your layout design is great but you will gain so much by being freed from set track radii (not least ditching first radius points - they get a bad press whenever any one in a forum or facebook groups ask about them). Stephen
Hi Stephen! I agree, I really do! Well, pretty much agree with everything you've said! However, I've used streamline points and flexitrack in the design wherever I've got space to do so! In the yard areas if I were to use streamline medium radius points, the operating areas would be so short there'd be no point in having them unless I was running trains with only a few wagons! I'm persisting with this crazy notion of using settrack points out of a necessity to save space! They actually work great most of the time, and only seem to have problems when wagons are being pushed through them! So, if I can eliminate having to push trains, then the problem goes away, and I can keep them on the layout, so I'm now looking at changing the track plan! To be honest, I'm not sure whether they get a bad reputation because they're terrible, or because bad information keeps being repeated about them parrot fashion! That's why I'm performing all of these experiments I guess! Enjoy the NGS show this weekend! All the best, Ian.
Even if you have short sidings, it does not mean you have to have short trains. The sidings are often for sorting wagons.and the loco can reverse onto each set of wagons in turn to build up the rake.
@@iansngauge one more thing then I will keep quiet. The set track points are well engineered and do exactly what they are built to do. But, and it is a big but, their geometry means longer wheelbase locos and wagons will struggle with them. Interestingly continental modellers don’t have as much problem because their models are built to cope with tighter curves. But British outline models do. As your fleet grows you won’t be sure until you can try them on the layout what you can use there and what you can’t. In the end it will all come down to which compromise you go with to get closest to what you want as you say in the video.
@@davidrauger - Hi Dave, that's a good point! But having short sidings means I'll have to keep more of my rolling stock in their boxes and not on the layout! Cheers, Ian.
@@Elvenhome - Oh, Stephen, never feel the need to keep quiet here! You're one of the reasons I've come back to the hobby, and I respect your opinions greatly! It's interesting what you say about longer wheelbase stock! I wouldn't expect an A4 or a 9F to get through a series of settrack points, but was surprised that the Ferry wagons had problems - especially as I'd previously had a train full of CCT and GUV vans navigate them! There definitely seems to be a sweet spot in wheelbase that causes 'medium' sized wagons to derail! I wonder why our continental modelling friends have rolling stock that is better suited to tighter curves? Cheers, Ian.
Hello Ian, Euan the Growler in comments below makes a good point about the tight radius of the settrack points. As you know I use Kato track and I removed all the tight radius points they make as I had no end of derailment problems. I used the bigger radius points Kto make and have never had issues. John.
Hi John! Yes, I remember you changing your points for longer radius ones! I have so little space though that I really want to try and make the settrack points work! I'm now looking at modifying the track plan so that I don't need to push trains at any point, although that is quite a challenge in itself! All the best, Ian.
Hi John - Wow what a really interesting update. I have seen all sorts of problems when it comes to using points in different locations and lot to do with lack of weight in wagons especially when it comes to goods yards. Now as I am building a replica I have no choice of the track plan apart from points and couplings.
I am hoping as I have such a large area to use only large points code 55, along with Hunt Magnetic Couplings, oh and change all wheels to metal ones.
So having watched your update which I must tell you is excellent and covers most problems that I have seen along with videos of the testing, with a lot of trepidation I can only wonder how my layout will perform. Looking forwards to more videos trying to solve this problem.
The comments by the way are truly excellent and I learnt a lot from reading them.
Thanks very much Chris! I'm sure as you have lots of space for medium or long streamline points then you won't suffer from any of these problems - as long as you add a little weight to your wagons! Also, I'm now trying to design the marshalling yard and goods yard areas so I don't have to push a train into them - which should theoretically make my problems go away too! Yes, the comments here have been excellent! All the best, Ian.
Pondering, pondering….
Hi Ian, when I first started thinking about building a layout I watched hundreds of UA-cam videos of building layouts and what stuck with me was people with the best running layouts used larger radius points. I fortunately have enough space to only use large radius electrofrog code 80 points and the trains run really well I think because of this but, they don’t always work perfectly. But what I also did was try and keep things simple track wise, although that’s easier said than done at times! It is all a compromise I’ve found with building a layout you can have one thing but not another, very frustrating and maybe something to ponder over…
Cheers and sorry no real practical solutions for you, John
Morning John! Like you, I love a cuppa and a good ponder! I wish I had space for large radius points, but my sidings would end up being a few inches long if I used them! Even the medium radius points are really too long when trying to build ladders and runarounds! It's interesting that you mention keeping the track plan simple, as that's what I'm currently working on in RailModeller Pro - like you say, it's definitely easier said than done though! I'm now trying to figure out if I can have a layout where I only need to pull trains, and not push them, because I really, really want to use the settrack points! More pondering required... All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, I love watching your videos which highlight this type of problem. Flexi track is a learning curb but once you get the hang of it, it isn't as bad as you think. I started using it from a very early age, only due to it being a lot cheaper than Setrack Lol! Keep this type of video up! as I have noticed so many other modellers are learning from you! and there is no point to a layout unless it runs smoothly! All the best Tony.
Hi Tony! Thank you! I love flexitrack - when it goes down smoothly! I much prefer my curves to be settrack, as then at least I know that the geometry of a curve is what I was going for! I'll be using flexitrack for most of the straights on Shelfington eventually, as like you say, it's much cheaper than settrack! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, as usual a great insight into track testing. I have had similar problems with previous layouts when I used set track, and as you rightly point out streamline points invariably involve and lead to flexible track. I took the opportunity when designing my new Hayridge layout to use medium radius streamline points, and so far, (touch wood). They have performed perfectly.
Looking forward to seeing more progress as you continue.
All the best.
Allan
Morning Allan! Yes, I've used the medium radius streamline points everywhere on the layout except for in the yard areas! Here I used settrack points in order to save space, but maybe I'm going to have to bite the bullet and go down the flexible track route, with the set of problems that brings - especially when trying to temporarily affix it to a foam base!! More pondering required! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian,
Another good, thorough and patient analysis! I watched this before bed last night, but no ideas about it came to me subconsciously overnight. It looks like you've had some good suggestions in comments from others though.
On streamline points: they don't necessarily need to lead to flexi track - Peco say they're compatible with settrack. When Endoor was (for a long time) just loose track I had some Electrofrog streamline points - the only issue with mixing with settrack was that the length didn't match any of the types of short settrack, so I "balanced" the loop with a set of points to nowhere on the other side of the oval. But a short section of straight flexitrack somewhere shouldn't be too tricky - if I remember correctly you did that with the fiddle area that you had behind the backscene. Good luck with the ongoing struggle against the troublesome track 'n' trucks, and thanks for sharing your account of it.
Thanks Jonathan! Yeah, streamline points are definitely compatible with settrack - I know because I use them all over the place (like the area behind the backscene), just not in the yard areas of the layout as they take up more space than I'd like! The issue with them is that you need to use flexitrack to bring the "turn route" back parallel with the main route, as there is no settrack curve that will do the job! I'm not saying that I won't end up using streamline points eventually, I'd just like to explore every possibility of using settrack points first! I'm currently exploring the possibility of designing the track so that I only ever need to pull trains over the points, although that is proving trickier than I thought it would be! Thanks again! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian. What a vexing problem. My track plan has a ladder of five coach sidings using four left-hand points in succession. The points are PECO medium radius Unifrog, Streamline items. My baseboard is "only" 4ftx6ft and the ladder will be essential to save space. I hope the Streamline versions will prove to be less trouble than the Settrack ones you have used!
Hi Paul! Vexing, that's a great word to describe the situation! I'm sure the streamline points will be much better at handling the situation when trains are pushed over them! I'm now trying to eliminate having to push trains at all, as I'd really like to use the settrack points in order to save space! All the best, Ian.
Great video as always. I really wish they would make larger radius set track points. I've always had issues with the 1st radius ones. I don't think they're fit for modern stock. Most other non british brands have larger radius set track points :(
Thank you! Yes, larger set track points would be a great thing - or even to have set track curves that would 'straighten up' streamline points, as I always find it a fiddly job to cut the flexitrack to the right length! Cheers, Ian.
It's possible to combine set track and flexi track. So you can have set track curves and straights should you wish whilst using the flexi track points. Just get a few fish plates (and insulated rail joiners if required) to knock them together.
Yep, I'm already using medium radius streamline points where I can, such as in the small fiddle yard at the rear of the layout! I'm only using settrack points in the marshalling yard, quarry and goods yard areas as space is at a premium in these places! All the best, Ian.
Great video very informative thank you for sharing hope you get on ok👍
Thanks very much Clive! I've still beavering away at the problem! If I can eliminate the need to push a train, then the problem goes away, so I'm trying to come up with a solution that removes the need for pushing on Shelfington itself! That's no mean feat though! All the best, Ian.
Sorry for my tardiness - I'm late! I got some Peco wagons in a job lot and I very quickly put those I didn't want back onto ebay. I found the Peco wagons were not only too light but also the wheels were very poorly formed out of plastic. Some of them were badly warped.
I have a similar issue with Dapol steam engines. Far too light and the flanges don't seem to be very deep. I will be trying to add weight in the future. Makes me love my minitrix even more!
Hi Simon - and sorry for my late reply! :) I've not had any warped wheels, but their lightness is definitely a problem, although that's easily fixed! I really thought changing to the metal wheels would solve some problems though - well, it has, in terms of free running, but not the derailment issues I was hoping they would! I've been staying away from Dapol steamers because of their dodgy tender drive shaft mechanism! I have a Farish Standard 5MT on order, so it will be interesting to see how that does over the points! All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge I haven't been running mine long enough to find out the shaft drive faults. But they do like to derail over certain sections. I can't run them on one of my tracks, I will have to go over it all again to check the ballast. Maybe got the odd little bit in the way.
I wont be buying any more for sure.
@@ngaugeonashelf4417 - It's annoying when they won't run over sections of track, especially when other locos work fine! I think I read somewhere that Dapol are redesigning the drive shaft mechanism, so it will be interesting to hear reports of how effective the new mechanism is when it arrives! Cheers, Ian.
I am hitting a similar issue in my first iteration of a new layout. Was wondering if this was primarily an issue of lack of articulation in the coupler when compress when pushed? Glad I am not the only one facing this and there are techniques to resolve this =) Starting to see why folks have yards that are pull through...
Hi Kim! I covered the coupling articulation in my previous derailment investigation video (058) and decided that it wasn't the cause of the problem! Certainly, the Dogfish wagons have ample lateral movement, which doesn't seem to matter when crossing the back to back points! Yes, pull through yards are definitely a great idea, and is something I'm looking at to fix this problem on my main layout! All the best, Ian.
Very good Ian. Set track points have such severe angles you will continually have issues. Looking at your plan I can see where a couple of 3 way points could be installed in place of two set track points. I haven't measured but I bet a dollar on one 3 way point taking up less room then 2 set track points joined one after the other. Hmmm I can see more pondering by your good self😅 cheers Euan
Thanks Euan! Yes, a 3 way point would take up a smidge less space, but I think they're only available in code 55, where Shelfington is all code 80! But yes, more pondering to be done! Remember this is only a problem when pushing trains, so I'm now trying to modify the track plan so that I only ever need to pull a train! All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge very true Ian the 3 way point is code 55 but ( you just knew there would be a "but" ) You can still join code 80 track to them - all you need to do is use a fine needle file and reprofile the top of the code 80 rail. My upper Fiddle Yard is code 80 but has three 3 way points in it. Don't rule out using the two different track codes !
@@thegrowler-blackwoodngauge - Ah, I just knew you'd have a sneaky way to join the two rail codes together! I'm too new at this game to come up with such devious ideas... yet! Lol! Cheers, Ian.
I think part of the issue is the actual design of the set track points, I've got newer ones and older ones, the designs are different - older ones have the "pivot" right up next to the common crossing, where as the newer design has a shorter moving section with a pivot and a fixed section adjacent to the crossing.
yoir video seems to show a similar effect to what I have seen here - the actual place where the wheel first climbs over the rail is at that pivot. with some of the points I have here its more of an issue that others, and the "bump" for want of a better phrase only applies in one direction where the moving and fixed rails meet. its not much but its why lighter vehicles have a problem.
the shorter wheelbase manages it as by the time the lead axle reaches it the vehicle has already pivoted so the wheel flange doesn't catch this "bump" where as a longer vehicle can struggle.
for example I have noted one set of points that will derail a 15' wheelbase PECO tank wagon pretty much every time is fine with some older GF Mk III coaches which is anything are even lighter - but a much shorter wheelbase
as for the fix, well physically larger points should work, I can try there is no space here. but with the set track points they are not all identical, even if the newer type so it could be worth marking a troublesome one and swapping them about a bit if the track, as with yours, is not fixed down.
otherwise I think its going to be a fine file to the inner edge of the fixed rail to add a small radius to the end to try and guide the flange around it (not tried yet, and will be a fiddle to do it)
Hi Dale! I've just had a quick look at the design of all of the settrack points on the test track, and they all look the same, and I think they're the newer type! I think you're right about the "bump" effect, although it should be noted that it doesn't occur with every wagon - or even the same wagon every time it traverses that section! Like you, I'm also confident that larger points will fix the issue, but am reluctant to give up on the settrack points completely as space is at a premium for me! I'm hoping to 'design away' the problem when it comes to the actual layout by only ever needing to pull trains through the points, and using medium radius streamline points where pushing trains can't be avoided! It's quite a tricky problem to solve though! All the best, Ian.
The Derailing Pixies strike again 😳 Apart from fishplates and jigsaws 🤯 points are the things I avoid the most 🤕 The frog area's 🐸 seem to be a place where some of the wheels suddenly fall into a hole 🕳 Much nicer having no points 😎 Very best wishes from the Emerald Isle ☘️
Good morning Paul in the Emerald Isle! Yes, those darn Pixies are a troublesome lot! No points would be good, but for me, are a necessary evil - along with fishplates! All the best, Ian.
Letting all your secrets out now Paul! not many people have noticed that you don't have any points on you main running lines 😁.
Hi Ian, interesting vid which seems to raise more questions than answers, do you think wheel change helped other than providing a freer run? All the best mate , thanks for another thought provoking issue.😊
Hi Phil! That's a good question! Like you say, the free running is the main advantage, meaning a loco can pull more wagons as they offer less friction! I suppose I also like the clickety-clack sound as they pass over rail joiners, which is something you don't get when using plastic wheels! All the best, Ian.
Buffer lock?
Unfortunately not Michael! I looked at that in my previous derailment investigation (058) and the buffers get nowhere near each other! Cheers, Ian.
There is probably a perfectly good reason for you using set track, but given the issues you are having maybe consider using alternatives. Maybe this is why most people use Peco points ??
Hi Malcolm! At the moment I'm undergoing testing, to see what's possible, and am trying to explain the issues I've faced along the way! Hopefully people, especially beginners like myself, will find some of the experiments useful, and allow them to avoid falling into similar traps! Like I said in the video, I could consider using Streamline points, but that would introduce issues associated with working with flexible track, which is definitely not beginner friendly! The settrack points are Peco points, and work great when pulling trains across them, so maybe the solution is to avoid pushing trains across them? Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment! All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge Ian, in my opinion (and its just that, an opinion) laying flexi-track isn't that difficult. My son has just completed a double track tail chaser layout and he's never laid any track before. All the pointwork is medium rad points, and the rest of the track is peco flexi track. To me the set track is always associated with "toy" train sets where as peco streamline is "model" railways. - but that's just an opinion. I can understand your reasoning to demonstrate the limitations of both, and some of your findings will no doubt help people when considering track for their own layouts. However the golden rule in this hobby is "Its your railway" meaning you do as you please so that is all that counts.
One thing you may wish to try, is after the first left hand point from the main loop, use RH points for each siding, so that the straight section of the point forms a straight line off the main loop (if that makes sense). You may need a short spacer between the LH point and first RH point to straighten out the serpentine movement.
Anyway, thanks for making these video, and sharing your results