I mostly use the StewMac Z files, the offset works best in my opinion. I have used the Dagger 2.0 and have liked the results. Great video! Thanks for sharing it!
Michael, thanks for watching! Honestly there could be six different outcomes. Each user will likely want, feel, see things differently. My takeaway from all this, was a bit of surprise. The Baroque was far better than I expected, especially for the price. It is a rather large file compared to the others, and doesn't really fit certain use situations easily. The StewMac Compact centered Z file was also very much a surprise. I've since sent it back to SM. It was just too uncomfortable for me to use. Honestly, I didn't see that coming. I've continued to attempt to use the Music Nomad S-File, which is a really cool and well designed file, but it really doesn't deliver a final finish. To me, it is a rough-work file, that needs to be followed by another file. I have ideas for their version 2 file, but I doubt that they are listening. Too much love and hype for the file as it is currently. Good luck with your projects!
@@theNextProject Nooooo. Talk to Rand - he is the Owner of Music Nomad, and a Great guy to do business with. I have about 12 of their products. Good Luck brother. oNe LovE from NYC
@@theNextProject I have used the Baroque on 2 guitars with extra jumbo frets and they came out really good...the straight handle is kinda hard to work with but once I did the crowning and polishing on the frets I forgot all about that..I have to do at least 1 of my guitars frets on several of the the frets and was just looking around..where I live out in the boonies the nearest guitar luthier that could do this job is at least 100 + miles away from me so I had to learn how to do this out of necessity...this is a great video here for sure.
Hi John, Great video with a lot of filing, which is almost as good as sanding. Thank you for testing for us. I will remember this if my current non-diamond fret file wears out. Stay safe, my friend, Jens
Jens, good to hear from you and thanks for watchin! Your cut tooth files will last forever, no need to throw money out the window on these items. Take care my friend!
Great info John, but they're all way out of my comfort zone so far as price is concerned. I'll be sticking with my triangle file with the safe corners until I find something better at the flee market. Thanks for taking the time. It's always a real pleasure to watch the next project.
Martin, thanks for watching! I hear ya, every option I tested was expensive, even the Baroque G4 has a price that makes me pucker a bit. All the others give me a sharp pain in my....wallet. I hope this test will offer some ideas and insight for others. I was/am a bit surprised that my observations don't align with a lot of social media reports. Maybe it's because I'm not selling anything, or perhaps my process is way off mark. IDK. I hope you are doing well, be safe and take care!
GQ, thanks for watching! I love your channel and videos = great stuff! Thanks for all the work you share. This "test" was rather interesting (to me), not at all what I expected in the end, and really, really hard to put in a ranked order. All of the files can, and do, a good job. Not all of them "feel" good however, even if they do work well. Then, there are shortcomings of one variety or another. No perfect file, but a good sample of a number of "good" files. I keep trying to use the lower ranked files from this test, hoping to reveal something I missed. Continually find myself using one of two files for final work... They are consistent in results and easy to use, at least for me. Thanks again!
First comment! I am using the Baroque file along with a cheapy cheapy one I got in a set from Amazon. I was really wanting the MusicNomad one, especially after KnowYourGear praised it so highly. But, your saying the crown is too wide does make sense. I may try and upgrade my files soon, but the cost of all of ‘em is indeed a deterrent. Strat update! When we left our refinished Dakota Red Strat, I had buzzing on the low E on the 8th fret and complete buzz/dead notes above the fourteenth or fifteenth notes of all the strings until I went to the 21st fret. I used my fret rocker and found where the 8th fret began causing trouble, which was right next to the A string to the end. I filed and used my rocker, filed some more, repeated until it was flat. I then recrowned the fret and polished it up to 12000 grit. The 21st fret got taken care of in the same fashion, but I think I need to revisit it when I change strings. Realistically, I don’t play a lot on the high frets so I am okay with leaving it for a month or two.
Tim, good to hear from you and thanks for watching! I was actually pretty surprised by the Baroque G4, you do get a lot of file(s) for the money, and it actually did work well. The reason I didn't move it up in my ranking, really came to how I work, and it was a bit too big for half of what I do. I've actually thought about cutting the handle off of it, and making it a "spot" crowning all-in-one file. That sounds like work, hmm. I had see the KnowYourGear review too, and was expecting great things from th MusicNomad file. It is a really well made tool, and will do a great job of bringing overly flat-top frets back to a workable crown shape, but I then need another tool to finish the crown before dress and polish work. So, I'm wondering what Phil was doing in his video, as I'm not seeing the same workflow with the file that he presented. Oh well. Everyone has there thing. I'm re-reading your comments about the buzzing and dead notes. It sounds about like there may be a issue where the neck bolts to the body, around the 14th-15th fret. Almost like "ski-jump", or neck hinge. I'm working on an '89 strat, which had early onset ski-jump at that area. Good neck relief right up to +/- the 15th, then it appear the fret were getting higher and fretting out. As it turned out, the neck from the nut to the 14th, was starting to hinge and bow up. The area bolted to the body appears to kick-up, but it's really the rest of the neck that is folding over....that sounds scary. As part of a complete re-fret, I refreshed the radius and removed the "ski-jump" giving the neck a little fall-away. I also filed a little extra fall-away in to the frets from the 12th-22nd. I tested the top 4 files on that project, which was eye-opening. The MusicNomad was useless, as I didn't have any frets that had a wide enough crown for that file to help with. That's were I realised it will be a rough work file for frets with bigger issues. Hope you get your strat sorted out. Be safe and take care!
I've come to the same conclusions as you after using Zfile & Baroque. You need a second file to finish the job. After passing the diamond file, there's still a plateau and you still need to pass a standard file to crown the rest of the fret. In any case, I've adopted the oil-on-diamond-file technique! Thanks for this!
Jauni Anisé, thanks for watching! I'm looking forward to hearing what others are experiencing using these and other files. I was rather surprised by this test, good and bad. The baroque file was actually better than I expected, the SM mini-Z was a huge disappointment. The MusicNomad S-file has a lot of great features, but I'm not sure who their test group was. I really need to follow the MN S-file with another file to get the crown thinned to an acceptable place (for me). I hope you have good luck with the oil-on-diamond technique. I really appreciate not spending the time cleaning and re-cleaning the diamond files when using oil in the process. Good luck with all your projects, take care!
I was looking at the Music Nomad S-file even though I like the Baroque file..I was actually going to order it tomorrow morning but not now..I too like a fairly narrow crown on top..easier to bend etc...might look at my Baroque file and see if I can cut the handle off and maybe weld the internal metal part of the handle at somewhat of an offset..haha ! I have the tools and welding machine to do it if its possible.
Ross, thanks for watching! The MusicNomad is a good file, but as you mentioned, leaves a rather wide crown. I keep using mine, and find it a "rough work" file. I still need to follow it with a second file to finish the job. I hope they will come out with a version 2 with a narrower safety zone. Sounds like you will have a custom tool built soon. Good luck with your projects. Be safe and take care@+!
Thanks for persevering. I do find the asking price of such kit off-putting, esp. for US-made or -supplied tools imported into the UK, so having this real world comparison is undoubtedly helpful. Ergonomics-wise, the MusicNomad offering suggests a better user handling experience, but for me, that’s gonna have to wait a while 😞
MuseumsBloke, thanks for watching! Agreed, the price of these is off-putting. That is part of the reason I did this test, and basically threw money away doing so. I'm hoping the outcome will help others either side-step, or put off getting certain files. The Music nomad has great hype, offering ultimate ease of use for all audiences. But, while a great tool, I found it sadly fall short of expectations. I could see a few potential upgrades to that file. A thin center crown rib, and finer 300 grit coating. Another idea would be to have one side of the file as-is, and the flip side the more refined "finish file". Meh, they didn't ask me. Any of these files require a lot of work to recoup the initial expense. Hope you are doing well, be safe and take care!
I loved every aspect of this! I have used the MusicNomad and was rooting for it but lost myself in the video presentation, the wry humor, and your knowledge base. I will still use it, albeit more knowledgeably - now with cutting oil (thanks to the embedded subliminal tutorial) ! Liked and subscribed.
Michael (Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo Violet) thanks for watching! Glad you enjoyed the video. It's hard not to love the MusicNomad file. It's a great piece of engineering design. I just used it again last weekend, hoping something new would "pop up", but it does what it is designed to do. It does that really well too, but it's leaving a bit too wide of crown for me. I've been trying to "cheat" the file, leaning it side-to-side, much like I do with the StewMac Z file. The results aren't the same, at least for me. I can easily see what I'm doing with the SM-Z, but the MusicNomad-S seems to block my POV, and I feel a bit blind when using it in such a manner. Running it upright feels natural, as it was designed to do. It is a great tool for starting the repair of heavily worn frets, and finishing with a second file for the thin crown. At least that's how I'm approaching it. As for oil, just a drop on the diamond grit of the file. Do your filing on the fret, wipe the fret and the file with a paper towel. Add a new drop of oil, hit the next fret.... later, rinse and repeat. You probably won't have to actually "clean" your file. At least not a deep cleaning to remove embedded fret debris. Thanks for your sub, welcome to the family of doing things for no good reason. Be safe and take care!
I'm actually a bit baffled by this video. I have used the Music Nomad file and I get a needle tip crown every time I use it, it's much thinner than the results in this video. Maybe there are some QC issues and he got a lemon.
Returnality, thanks for watching! Your "needle tip" crown width using the MN S-File is baffling to me. I have to really cheat the file, leaning it greatly side-to-side to get a narrow-ish crown width. This is a process I use with the StewMac original Z-file, but that's how the SM-Z is designed to be used. I find the side-to-side process with the MN-S file a bit awkward in comparison. Kinda like driving with my eyes shut. The S-file, as designed has a ±1/32" wide safety rib to skate on the leveled crown area. I like the design idea of this. But it also wants to leave a ±1/32" wide crown unless the file is leaned side-to-side, which I feel defeats the design intent. I also find the leaning of the file yields a less than true crown. Since I'm getting a finish crown close to 1mm wide, I have to either cheat the file, or just grab another file... which I typically do. Please let me know the process you are using with the S-file to get such fine final crown lines. Would be interesting to hear your process and take on the tool. Thanks again for watching, be safe and take care!
@@theNextProject I took a closer look at my S-file and compared it to yours. Mine has a MUCH thinner center line to my eyes. This seems to be a QC issue. I personally dislike the S-file anyways because it leaves incredibly harsh tool marks that are just an absolute pain to get rid of. Right now my go to is the normal fret dagger 2.0. It's fast, effective, and doesn't leave abysmal scratches all over the frets.
Could be. My S-File has a fat 1/32" (± 1mm) wide safety rib. Works pretty good until it hits the rib, then it's built-in features kinda come to a halt. If I rock the file side-to-side for a finer crown, I'm cheating the file design, and might as well use a different file. Maybe I did get a dud, idk. I really like the idea, but not the function and as you mention the coarse cut too. I find it to be a rough-work file, which I don't need too often.
Really amazing video. Also interesting, ironic and somehow appropriate. This week I’ve been working closely with the factory where the Diamond Dagger file is made, and exploring every possible way to squeeze any more improvement from the file’s performance, function, comfort and durability…. which is actually a never ending process. So as I’m sitting in the hotel restaurant having dinner after a long day, mindlessly scrolling through UA-cam… into my feed pops this video! Have to admit I was a bit apprehensive to click the play button... 😬 But I have to give major props on the thorough and rigorous testing methods, and the punishing fret file torture laboratory you’ve created! It was quite riveting and suspenseful to watch (for a guitar nerd)… regardless of the results. Did I expect to (co)win? Not really… Being the the little guy going up against the private equity owned and funded behemoth that Stew-Mac has become, as well as many other larger, well funded companies who often make some quality tools (which I also use), I expected to be at least competitive. Guess it just goes to show that an innovative idea, when well thought out and carefully executed, can compete, or often beat a huge brand. So I think we can call this a win 😉 While continually striving to do better. If anyone has questions about the Diamond Dagger, or any other FretGuru tools, reply here in the comments, or reach out to me at the obvious FretGuru website. Ask for Bernie.
Bernie, thanks for watching, and the really great comment too! To be honest, this test was really tough to call. All of these files are right there, all at the heels of the next one. That made it tough, my ranking shifted continually, but when the dust settled... Each file I tested has its strengths, whether it was price, fit and finish, function, or just a little bit of everything. I was impressed by the Baroque file, actually better than I expected for the money and the downside (for me) was the overall size which limits its ease of use in all areas. Detached necks would be fine, but acoustics, set necks situations require some gymnastics with this file. Maybe the biggest surprise was my complete distaste for the StewMac Compact Z-file, which has such a (cult) following, I felt I was missing something. However, I could barley use it for more than a few frets without it cutting into my hand...nope, it has gone back to StewMac ( SM does have a great customer service ). The affordable offset (knock off) file from Bitterroot guitars, is actually a pretty good file. Once I got beyond the extremely sharp edges as delivered (I softened the edges), it actually worked pretty well. It was more versatile than the Baroque, due to the rounded (spot crowning) ends. The MusicNomad was my expected winner before I started the test. It really is a nicely designed tool. I know it went through testing and research, but once I used it I questioned what I was doing wrong. I was really disappointed, and figured that I must suck at this stuff, but I kept at it.... It delivered what it was designed to do, and that is to coarsely file a reasonably wide crown. A lot of my work begins about where the MN S-file stops. I've continued to try it, and if I "cheat" the built-in design safety-limitation, I can get the crown a bit thinner but still need to reach for a finish-file. Perhaps no one else goes for thin crown lines. Maybe it is just me! That left me with the SM Original Z, which I've used for a number of year, and your DD 2 file which is new to me. I am very use to the way the offset "V" of the SM Z-file works, so I can easily get a pretty good crown. Your DD 2 file was easy to understand and navigate with no on-ramp time wasted. I see the SM original Z requiring more user training and attention, and its next tier pricing, kept it from cleanly taking the top spot. It is a great file - for me. Your file has done well, surprised and impressed me a bit as too. I will continue to use and torture it on upcoming projects, comparing it with the other files over time as well. Slightly off topic, but I don't hear much about "lubrication" when using diamond fret files. I recently started using oil on the files (3 and 1 oil currently). I believe it may slow the cutting rate down a little, but the payoff is not needing to clean the file, and potentially longer file life. Time will tell. Side note, I do have you fret end file, been using that side-by-side with the SM end file . Honestly, your end file is my go-to. The SM end file is a bit anemic, but its small size is occasionally handy. Keep up the great work and products, we all appreciate it! Thanks again for watching and your comment, as I greatly appreciate your time. Be safe and take care, John D.
@@theNextProject Hey John, I appreciate your thoughtful, in depth comments, and have discovered and been enjoying your other videos as well! “…at the heels of the next one.” That’s a great description and visual, which could likely describe most every tool at your workbench and mine. As you’ve found, it’s rarely a day-and-night difference of any one tool (though there are some truly game-changing tools), but in finding that 1%-5% improvement in each tool and process, which creates the efficiency and puts the “flow” in your shop’s workflow. While also raising the level of the final result. I didn’t know until more recently there was a name for this 1%-5% principal, or philosophy (of sorts), though I’ve always subscribed to it. The principal is called “Aggregation of marginal gains”, which says, instead of looking for the large and dramatic improvements in any one place, consider the compounding effect of small 1% (or more) improvements, spread over the entire process, which - when added up can create dramatic results. So yes, super interesting - if unpredictable - results of your shootout. MN usually has good/great and innovative products, they typically set the bar fairly high, so their crowning file seemed like it would be a contender for the top spot. So that was a surprise. I’ve also tried the compact Z File, and also found it puzzling, fatiguing to use, and generally a half baked / poorly executed design. As well as the others in your test, which are also part of my extensive file collection, landing somewhere on the usable/useful/pretty darn good continuum. You’ve got me very intrigued about running a diamond file “wet”! Up to this point I’ve only tried Dyna Glide on a file with teeth. Will be trying this soon. You’re not alone… I’m also very obsessive about razor thin and precise crown lines. It was this obsession - as well as the disappointment with the tools that were currently available - that started me down the path of developing a file that could create these centerlines in a consistent, controllable and intuitive way, which resulted in the Dagger 2.0 (the one with steel teeth) and the Diamond Dagger you have. Glad to hear the FretGuru fret end file is serving you well. This was actually the first FretGuru “product”, which wasn’t really intended to be a product at all. It started as merely a solution to my being underwhelmed and disappointed with the SM fret end file - for similar reasons you are. It was mainly that the SM file is too narrow in width, which gives it an unstable platform to work from, and makes it too easy to lean / topple over, which would make the corner of the file dig a groove next to the fret. So after making a new design by extensively modifying a Swiss jeweler’s file, and being stoked with the results - and not thinking anything beyond my personal problem being solved… I then I had a good friend/exceptional luthier visiting the shop, and I said, “Hey, I just made this fret end file… give it a try and let me know how it works for you”. He was blown away by the function, and how stable it was, allowing him to slide right into the lowest corner of the fret, without any fingerboard damage. He immediately asked if I could make 6 of them for him and his guys, to which I reluctantly replied, “maybe”. Which then began to snowball as the word got out, which started many years of me personally making these fret end files by modifying Swiss jeweler’s files, to the point where my hands and wrists were ruined. Can you say “the opposite of profitable?” The secret sauce on these files (aside from the special tooth cut) is just how surgically/insanely flat and smooth the bottom of the file is. I’m not afraid of anyone copying this, because nobody would be stupid enough to go through what we do to make them so flat. These are still the opposite of profitable. You’ve probably noticed that FretGuru has a small, tightly focused product range. That’s by design. I figure you guys (or the market) don’t need another capo or string winder. So I only begin to design a tool when the current available options leave me disappointed, and only move forward if I’ve come up with something that I confidently feel can be game-changing - or at least significantly improve the experience and results while at the guitar workbench. If another company already has a product that performs at the highest level that I demand, then I generally won’t even bother to design or offer a similar product. We have a few game changers in the works, which have been in development for a few years. I’d be glad to give you a preview when they’re ready, in exchange for your astute observations and input. You can reach out to me at the obvious FretGuru website, or directly at: fretguru@ G Mayle dot com (in code so the bots and spammers don’t have a field day). Thanks again, I appreciate your dedication to this work! Bernie/FretGuru
Hey Bobby, Thanks for watching! I won't speak for Bernie, but I would expect the Diamond Dagger to work well on 43080 wire. For this test, I was using 51100 Jescar SS, and some StewMac nickel wire that was roughly the same. I also used the DD on a squire recently, it had pretty narrow wire and all went well. Hope this helps.
Good video, I have a "NOT SO PRO TIP" for you, from another industry, lose the oil/cutting fluid, and apply chalk to your file every couple frets, the chalk stops the file from loading, Caution, I've not used it on a diamond file, only regular files, but the concept is the same
sthom, thanks for watching! Good tip, and I have used chalk on both regular steel tooth file and tried it on the diamond files. To my surprise, oil actually worked better on regular steel file for a recent project/experiment. Results may vary depending on the type of metal being filed and scale of project however. My recent "experiment" had my steel file continually plugging up heavily with and without chalk, then I tried 3and1 oil on it, and barely had any issue, other than an oily file. That test was removing a shoulder from a cast metal insert that was chucked in my drill press. It was spinning, I was filing...and cussing a bit initially. The cast metal really stuck to the steel file. My file brush did little to remove the material from the file, had to pick most of it out. Then I figured "why not try oil", and almost no issue with plugging, and the file brush removed everything easily at that point. I was a bit shocked. But, it's oil, it can be a bit messy. Good times. Thanks again for watching and mentioning chalk too. Be safe and take care!
I did buy the centered z-file and found it just fine… got a nice thin crown , found it cut well, would def try the cutting oil next time. So although you rated it last, in my hands it gave good results.
Mike, thanks for watching and I'm glad to hear the SM file is working. Did you get the full-length center file, or the compact version? I found the compact version caused my hand to cramp after a couple frets, and that the rubber grip didn't really improve the issue - at least for me it didn't. Also, the edges were pretty sharp, so while it did cut well I felt it wasn't any better than the others I tested and was the least enjoyable to use. That's just my experience. Glad it's working for you. Be safe and take care!
After trying several different files, what seems to work for me now is the original fret guru file(non diamond) to cut through very quickly and shape the crown then the zfile for super thin center strip. I use an old toothbrush to constantly clean the diamond file from buildup. I got the fret guru file when it first came out, it was about $40. Id recommend that file for the money or the hosco regular crowning files…a little more work but they’re not expensive and high quality…i prefer the hosco dressing file over the stewmac anyday
K Matax, thanks for watching and sharing your tool/process too. I'm really like the original zfile for the hairline too, just not easily getting there with any of these other files. I was really surprised by how much I hate the SM mini centered Z-File, and how many people claim to love it, oh well. I actually have an old offset Z-file that I cut the handle off of. It's basically the offset mini-Z, not centered. I actually use and enjoy the old file that I cut down, but not the new official model. Thanks for the info on the FG and Hosco files, good stuff! Be safe and take care!
Tommy, thanks for watching! Yep, the SM safety edge Z is nearly identical to the SM original Z, only without the diamond grit on one surface. They do make/sell really get files.... accept for that mini-me-Z thingy I tried, LOL. Hope all is well for you, be safe and take care!
I agree the full-sized original Z-file is an excellent file. Not sure what you mean by it needing considerable experience though. I think it's basically foolproof, requiring the least user experience, compared to most crowning files. The only problem is the cost. But it's one of the few Stewmac products that I think is worth what you pay. Crowning is a pain with a bad file (and there are quite a few like that). The Z-file's two flat angled facets avoid the problems with curved-concave files designed for one fret width only. The Z-file is almost "one size fits all".
VW, thanks for watching! I feel the Original Z requires a better eye and attention span, than do many of the concave files. It goes where the user drives it, the concave files just ride the rails (frets), for better or worse. The Orig-Z won't give you a crown, unless you drive it to a crown. But like you say, it is one-size fits all file. The Orig-Z is my go-to, and it will do anything I direct it to - at a price as you say. Yep. I was really disappointed by the SM centered V file. Personally, I like the Original far better, but many will debate that. To each there own. I kinda see the concave files as having a generic built-in auto-pilot (the Tesla of fret files), the user isn't required to do as much driving, and the file won't do anything special unless directed to do so. They don't require as much personal touch, or finesse for "basic" crowning. But we want something better than basic, so we reach for the Orig-Z. Just had a mental image/comparison of the the MusicNomad S-File to bumper bowling. An oddly accurate comparison, lol. It just rides the rail, then skates and does nothing. No gutter ball, no strike either, just along for the ride. Thanks for the comment, I like hearing from others and how they get along with this kind of stuff. Be safe and take care!
Great video! The StewMac files work well for me, but always make my hands sore (both the compact one and the offset Z file). I want to try the Music Nomad fret file, but my Music Nomad nut files have already started losing their diamond coating, so I'm wary of buying their other diamond file products.
Philip, thanks for watching! I was having some serious hand cramps from using the SM mini file, and getting poked by the sharp edges too. Ended up wrapping part of it in masking tape just so I could test the file more. So my takeaway with the SM Mini was "why should I use a tool that makes a less than enjoyable task, painful?". The MusicNomad S-File is really well made, I like the innovation and such, but it seems be a rough-in type file. Take a set of heavily worn and plateau leveled frets and bring them back to near crown. Then grab the SM original Z to finish the job... Doesn't really seem like the ideal workflow to me. But maybe I'm just a bit weird. I did attempt to use it on a strat refret, but the new frets barely needed any leveling, even at the fall-away area. The MN S-file, has such I wide crown ( approx. 1mm ), there was nothing it could do to help, so I used other files to do the crowning. I have some MN nut files (new to me), so I'll keep and eye on them to see how quickly they wear - thanks for the heads up on that. Be safe and take care!
I bought the StewMac z file and had to send it back. Missing an area of grit and tool marks on the edges of the smmoth filing face that could chew the fretboard. Very disappointing. They easily refunded my money. I used a triangle file to complete the job.
Picker, thanks for watching. The compact Z file I tested was pretty rough on the smooth surfaces too. I still use my original offset z-file. Old-school triangle files are good to have on hand. Good luck with your projects. Be safe and take care!
I've used Baroque unfortunately the coating is not even. Music nomad looks interesting however as you said second file is needed to finish the job. Thanks for the video
Johny, thanks for watching! Sorry to hear of your poor experience with the Baroque file. I think there is a "break-in" period for that file, and maybe some of the others too. I was really excited to try the Music Nomad file, and while it is a great and innovative design, it didn't really fit my needs. I've dropped a few hints to MN, suggesting a version 2, but we shouldn't hold our breathe on that. As you mentioned, it does need a second file to finish the job, which is sad to say. Right now I'm splitting project work between the FretGuru Diamond Dagger 2, and the old StewMac original Z-File (offset "v" design). Both of these files seem to get me where I need to go. Good luck with your projects!
Dugbert, thanks for watching! True, triangle files do work, and have been used by a lot of us. This is a test of diamond files, which I switched to a long time ago, being the SM original Z. It was a great expense and full of frustration due to the surface continually plugging up. Since adding a cutting fluid to my process, the need to clean the file has been resolved. Even when I used 1/4 round and triangle files, I had to clean the teeth of those files, so possibly using cutting fluid may help that style file as well, but I haven't tried fluid with those. Hope all is well, take care!
Hey buddy, hope all is well. Sorry about my last few comments. I had a temporary loss of sanity. I have the Z file which i like but its not that easy to use. They all seem expensive to me. The z file definitely has some sharp edges but it'll work with the neck on. Just keep it clean. My first file was 5 dollars and i still uae it to take off that center line, 😆 i still have a few builds I'm working on. The latest is a fender stratocaster 50's Stratocaster with a quite wonderful Standard Squier Stratocaster neck. They both fit like a glove. The body's in great shape and is mint green. The neck is a lefty that i converted to a right handed. I wish i could afford the fender neck but this one is a step up from the normal Squier necks in that it has the same specs as a fender. I wish i could make the one ghat originally came with this body. The verterra has it in roasted maple and 7.25 radius like the original did.
ranman! good to hear from you, and no worries. I could tell you were dealing with some tough times. Hope things are going better for you now. Agreed, the Z file probably has the largest need for user input and control, but it can also deliver great results. My impatience often gets in the way of proper handling. I find myself needing to step-back, regroup, slow myself down and work the file, not just rush the process. Haste makes waste, and I'm pretty good at haste! I'm finding that using oil (3 and 1 oil most recently), really resolves the need to clean the diamond files. The oil keeps everything suspend, no more plugged up diamond grit. I wish I would have stumble apon using oil a few years ago. Sounds like a great project you have going. I'll check your channel, you may have that guitar in one of your vids. Good to hear from you again, take care my friend!
@@theNextProject, thank you, good to hear from you too. I'm ok but it's still very hard here. Good word man. Lots of peoples lives are crashing. I love guitar's but I cannot focus on it for long or I get accused of not doing what I could be doing instead. So, I have projects now, that don't get done. Focusing on the garden now. Food for the future, if there is one.
Hey OutrageDuck, thanks for watching! Yep, 3 corner file, gurian file, various shaped steel tooth files, then diamond files. Some may be better than others, but all good tools. The carpenters hand saw was updated to the circular saw, then miter saws.... Steps in evolution, all good tools, all will do the job. Constantly looking to do better work, with less work. All good! Be safe and take care!
Do you consider it a good thing whether or not the crown line is super thin? You just mentioned it in the part I'm listening to. I would fret (haha) about ruining the leveling.
Andrew, thanks for watching! Crown width seems to be subjective, but I personally attempt to reduce the flat leveling area to a thin "hairline", at least as much as possible. I didn't waste much time during this test trying to get a hairline, as a couple of the files just won't go there. As for ruining the leveling, I guess that depends on how heavy handed the person is doing the crowning, dressing and polishing. If I happen to crown and finish the hairline away, it would likely be in the ten-thousandths of an inch amount. Interesting thing, while I was working and re-working this test board, I only removed 0.007" of material total during all the re-levels. So a lot of leveling didn't take much off the frets. So even less is removed bringing the flat level into a crowned shape, again depending on how heavy handed the person is. For me, the finer the crowned line, the less finish work and smoother polished frets I can make. Better bending, smoother feel... better playing guitar. That being said, I've seen, and worked on some frets that I call "plateau crowned". They are pretty much flat top leveled, maybe a little crowning to ease the edges, then fine sanded and polished.... still a flat top fret, just shiny. So, to each their own I guess. Hope this helps explain what I mentioned. Thanks for asking, take care!
I bought the fret dagger 2.0...do you have any tips on using it ? I have used diamond fret files and own a couple but wanted to try the Dagger...looks like you can only "push it" and not back and forth.. I just realized that you used the Diamond Dagger 2.0 and not the standard Dagger 2.0 with the looks like cutting grooves...no wonder I found it for $45.
Ross, thank for watching! The Fret Dagger 2.0 gets really good reviews, and should be a good tool for you to have. I haven't used that particular file, but i have used gurian double-edge steel tooth files for a long time. Your file should cut really well, and if it is like they gurian, if not careful might leave some "chatter" marks. If you can, do some test filing to get the hang of the tool. Once you get the feel for it, you should have no trouble. Yes, the dagger 2.0 is a "one-direction" file, not a big deal as it should really cut well. Good luck with your projects!
I got my Fret Dagger 2.0 Gurian type file in and finally used it and it works great..got the thin red mark onmy fret crowns and buffed them up and now ready to go. @@theNextProject
FirstWorker, thanks for watching! I haven't tried the Fret Maestro, as it is a bit more expensive than any of the files that I've tried so far, and radius specific. It looks like there is a new maestro "omni pro" version for conical radius boards. It appears the main depth-stop handle part has a flat bottom to follow the fingerboard radius shape, allowing for any radius... Since I work on a number of different fret radius', I'd have to invest in numerous radius-specific maestro file inserts, or possibly the new omni-pro version. The maestro is ± $190 per radius set, or a pre-determined 4 radi set for $600, or Pro package for $2000 which appears to have all radi and the Omni Pro too. Interesting tools, just can't justify them at the moment. Hope all is well, be safe and take care!
I’ve recently had to buy some electrical tools and the prices are reasonable, nothing outrageous…then I look at luthier tools and it is absolutely ridiculous…over 100 bucks for 1 file…and that’s just one example…I can’t think of any trade where the price of tools is so expensive…maybe there is but I don’t know of any!!!
Thanks for watching! Completely get what you're saying. Maybe the electrical tool market has a larger audience, and the tools are mass produced. Luthier repair tools cater to a rather small following, so it's kinda like everything is "custom". A fret slotting circular sawblade is $100, but we can buy a sawblade at Lowes for $15 and up. Of course the Lowes blade is made by the tens-of-thousands, and marketed at the home DIY person. I looked into this kinda thing a few vids back. ua-cam.com/video/qE_a7SPZtb4/v-deo.html Be safe and take care!
Hello, hello and thanks for watching! Great question, and potentially that could be the case. Typically the SM Original Z file, with the offset "V" surface, is worked in a way that rounds one side of the fret at a time. With each pass you angle the file slightly more upright, giving you a rounded fret side, while retaining a centered crown area. Then the file is flipped over and the other side of the file is used to round the opposite side of the fret, again filing from an angle to an upright path. Hopefully ending up with a center hairline crown. This process is why I mentioned that the StewMac Original Z-file requires the most user input. You are driving the file to position the center hairline crown. It takes a little practice, but the file can do a great job once the driver is trained. Most of the other files have a concave filing surface, and a different kind of attention is required. None of the files are "auto-pilot", but perhaps the closest to that would be the Music Nomad S-file. However I feel it stops short of reaching the destination. So, you need to reach for another file to finish the trip. Sorry for the weak analogies. I hope this helps explain the SM Original Z file. Thanks again for watching, be safe and take care!
So I have the music nomad s file. I have had the same experience with the center line being a bit too wide, and I noticed if I don't use it wet it scratches up the frets pretty bad. I been looking at the fret guru files. Do you prefer the diamond over the standard fret guru files?
Johnathan, thanks for watching! Yep, I hear ya. Using some lubricant with the S-file does help reduce the aggressive cut you mention. I really like all the innovation in that file, but I'm finding myself using other files more often at this time. As for the orginal FretGuru Dagger fret file. I haven't used it, so I can't give you hands-on feedback, sorry. I have used steel tooth files for a long time, and they can do a great job. They also require the user to really be tuned-in to driving the file. The three-corner and the old gurian 1/4 round files can do great work, or they and quickly destroy frets. I haven't used cut tooth files in some time, so I'm probably not a good source for the info you seek. Currently I'm primarily using the SM original Z, and FretGuru Diamond Dagger 2 files, with 3and1 oil as a lube. I am always looking to try new things, and hopeful that Music Nomad with have and update to there file in the future too. Good luck with your projects!
Personally I do. Others may prefer the centered however, to each their own. I like the fine control that is offered by the original Z. I can focus on rounding one side of the fret at a time, not have to watch both sides. Again, others may prefer the centered version. One thing I don't like is the "compact" SM file. My hand was cramping while using it. It might be okay for a couple frets, spot work, but definitely not a full fretboard. I sent the compact Z file back to StewMac, that was the best part of my experience with that file.
@theNextProject I been using a triangle file and the s file. I have used a few others. But I just bought the z original I'm gonna give it a try. I like the fact that you still have some control. Sometimes with the s file I rock it side to side to thin up the line a bit. But i don't like doing that. Also for the oil I end up using music nomad f one oil. Works well.
Sounds good, any lube, even the musicnomad f one oil should help keep the file from plugging up. I've rocked the S-File side-to-side to get a narrower crown too, but don't like that I can't easily see what I'm doing. It's good to have all the tools you do, you'll have a solution for any situation. Good luck with your projects!
Ron, thanks for watching! Since I started using cutting fluid, or 3 and 1 oil with the diamond files, I haven't had to clean the files. I just wipe the file with a paper towel and reapply a drop of oil before starting the next fret. Before using oil with the file, I had to stop every few frets, use denatured alcohol or similar to soak the file surface, a old tooth brush, or more typically a fine brass "tooth" brush. Looks like a regular tootbrush, but has fine brass wires for scrubbing. The constant plugging up of my fret file got so bad, I bought a second file just so I could get further down a fingerboard before having to clean the files. Then I'd stop and clean 2 files at one time, then get back to work... Life kinda sucked, all better now. I hope this helps, good luck with your projets!
Bilal, thanks for watching! SM might borrow the idea and release a file with a smaller safe zone, that would be interesting. Not sure why the Music Nomad S-file is getting so much praise. I guess everyone else either accepts a wide crown, or is doing something else with the file. I like the idea, just not the results. Take care!
I mostly use the StewMac Z files, the offset works best in my opinion. I have used the Dagger 2.0 and have liked the results. Great video! Thanks for sharing it!
Shadowghst, thanks for watching!
Good luck with your project, be safe and take care!
This was great. Appreciate the Work that went into-it. Very honest & informative. Great information presented here.
Michael, thanks for watching!
Honestly there could be six different outcomes. Each user will likely want, feel, see things differently.
My takeaway from all this, was a bit of surprise. The Baroque was far better than I expected, especially for the price. It is a rather large file compared to the others, and doesn't really fit certain use situations easily. The StewMac Compact centered Z file was also very much a surprise. I've since sent it back to SM. It was just too uncomfortable for me to use. Honestly, I didn't see that coming.
I've continued to attempt to use the Music Nomad S-File, which is a really cool and well designed file, but it really doesn't deliver a final finish. To me, it is a rough-work file, that needs to be followed by another file. I have ideas for their version 2 file, but I doubt that they are listening. Too much love and hype for the file as it is currently.
Good luck with your projects!
@@theNextProject Nooooo. Talk to Rand - he is the Owner of Music Nomad, and a Great guy to do business with. I have about 12 of their products. Good Luck brother. oNe LovE from NYC
@@theNextProject I have used the Baroque on 2 guitars with extra jumbo frets and they came out really good...the straight handle is kinda hard to work with but once I did the crowning and polishing on the frets I forgot all about that..I have to do at least 1 of my guitars frets on several of the the frets and was just looking around..where I live out in the boonies the nearest guitar luthier that could do this job is at least 100 + miles away from me so I had to learn how to do this out of necessity...this is a great video here for sure.
Hi John,
Great video with a lot of filing, which is almost as good as sanding. Thank you for testing for us. I will remember this if my current non-diamond fret file wears out.
Stay safe, my friend,
Jens
Jens, good to hear from you and thanks for watchin!
Your cut tooth files will last forever, no need to throw money out the window on these items.
Take care my friend!
"Almost as good as sanding"! So true! 🤣
LOL, you guys.
This is a really great video. I don't envy you with all that filing. Thank you again for keeping up with the fantastic work.
Hans, thanks for watching and much appreciated.
I hope you are doing well, take care!
Great info John, but they're all way out of my comfort zone so far as price is concerned. I'll be sticking with my triangle file with the safe corners until I find something better at the flee market. Thanks for taking the time. It's always a real pleasure to watch the next project.
Martin, thanks for watching!
I hear ya, every option I tested was expensive, even the Baroque G4 has a price that makes me pucker a bit.
All the others give me a sharp pain in my....wallet.
I hope this test will offer some ideas and insight for others. I was/am a bit surprised that my observations don't align with a lot of social media reports. Maybe it's because I'm not selling anything, or perhaps my process is way off mark. IDK.
I hope you are doing well, be safe and take care!
Interesting test and interesting test results. Definitely useful video. Thanks.
GQ, thanks for watching!
I love your channel and videos = great stuff!
Thanks for all the work you share.
This "test" was rather interesting (to me), not at all what I expected in the end, and really, really hard to put in a ranked order.
All of the files can, and do, a good job. Not all of them "feel" good however, even if they do work well.
Then, there are shortcomings of one variety or another. No perfect file, but a good sample of a number of "good" files.
I keep trying to use the lower ranked files from this test, hoping to reveal something I missed. Continually find myself using one of two files for final work... They are consistent in results and easy to use, at least for me.
Thanks again!
First comment!
I am using the Baroque file along with a cheapy cheapy one I got in a set from Amazon.
I was really wanting the MusicNomad one, especially after KnowYourGear praised it so highly. But, your saying the crown is too wide does make sense.
I may try and upgrade my files soon, but the cost of all of ‘em is indeed a deterrent.
Strat update! When we left our refinished Dakota Red Strat, I had buzzing on the low E on the 8th fret and complete buzz/dead notes above the fourteenth or fifteenth notes of all the strings until I went to the 21st fret.
I used my fret rocker and found where the 8th fret began causing trouble, which was right next to the A string to the end. I filed and used my rocker, filed some more, repeated until it was flat. I then recrowned the fret and polished it up to 12000 grit.
The 21st fret got taken care of in the same fashion, but I think I need to revisit it when I change strings. Realistically, I don’t play a lot on the high frets so I am okay with leaving it for a month or two.
Tim, good to hear from you and thanks for watching!
I was actually pretty surprised by the Baroque G4, you do get a lot of file(s) for the money, and it actually did work well.
The reason I didn't move it up in my ranking, really came to how I work, and it was a bit too big for half of what I do.
I've actually thought about cutting the handle off of it, and making it a "spot" crowning all-in-one file. That sounds like work, hmm.
I had see the KnowYourGear review too, and was expecting great things from th MusicNomad file. It is a really well made tool, and will do a great job of bringing overly flat-top frets back to a workable crown shape, but I then need another tool to finish the crown before dress and polish work. So, I'm wondering what Phil was doing in his video, as I'm not seeing the same workflow with the file that he presented. Oh well. Everyone has there thing.
I'm re-reading your comments about the buzzing and dead notes. It sounds about like there may be a issue where the neck bolts to the body, around the 14th-15th fret. Almost like "ski-jump", or neck hinge. I'm working on an '89 strat, which had early onset ski-jump at that area. Good neck relief right up to +/- the 15th, then it appear the fret were getting higher and fretting out.
As it turned out, the neck from the nut to the 14th, was starting to hinge and bow up. The area bolted to the body appears to kick-up, but it's really the rest of the neck that is folding over....that sounds scary. As part of a complete re-fret, I refreshed the radius and removed the "ski-jump" giving the neck a little fall-away. I also filed a little extra fall-away in to the frets from the 12th-22nd.
I tested the top 4 files on that project, which was eye-opening. The MusicNomad was useless, as I didn't have any frets that had a wide enough crown for that file to help with. That's were I realised it will be a rough work file for frets with bigger issues.
Hope you get your strat sorted out.
Be safe and take care!
I've come to the same conclusions as you after using Zfile & Baroque. You need a second file to finish the job. After passing the diamond file, there's still a plateau and you still need to pass a standard file to crown the rest of the fret. In any case, I've adopted the oil-on-diamond-file technique! Thanks for this!
Jauni Anisé, thanks for watching!
I'm looking forward to hearing what others are experiencing using these and other files. I was rather surprised by this test, good and bad. The baroque file was actually better than I expected, the SM mini-Z was a huge disappointment. The MusicNomad S-file has a lot of great features, but I'm not sure who their test group was. I really need to follow the MN S-file with another file to get the crown thinned to an acceptable place (for me).
I hope you have good luck with the oil-on-diamond technique. I really appreciate not spending the time cleaning and re-cleaning the diamond files when using oil in the process.
Good luck with all your projects, take care!
I was looking at the Music Nomad S-file even though I like the Baroque file..I was actually going to order it tomorrow morning but not now..I too like a fairly narrow crown on top..easier to bend etc...might look at my Baroque file and see if I can cut the handle off and maybe weld the internal metal part of the handle at somewhat of an offset..haha ! I have the tools and welding machine to do it if its possible.
Ross, thanks for watching!
The MusicNomad is a good file, but as you mentioned, leaves a rather wide crown.
I keep using mine, and find it a "rough work" file. I still need to follow it with a second file to finish the job. I hope they will come out with a version 2 with a narrower safety zone.
Sounds like you will have a custom tool built soon.
Good luck with your projects.
Be safe and take care@+!
Thanks for persevering. I do find the asking price of such kit off-putting, esp. for US-made or -supplied tools imported into the UK, so having this real world comparison is undoubtedly helpful. Ergonomics-wise, the MusicNomad offering suggests a better user handling experience, but for me, that’s gonna have to wait a while 😞
MuseumsBloke, thanks for watching!
Agreed, the price of these is off-putting. That is part of the reason I did this test, and basically threw money away doing so. I'm hoping the outcome will help others either side-step, or put off getting certain files.
The Music nomad has great hype, offering ultimate ease of use for all audiences. But, while a great tool, I found it sadly fall short of expectations.
I could see a few potential upgrades to that file. A thin center crown rib, and finer 300 grit coating. Another idea would be to have one side of the file as-is, and the flip side the more refined "finish file". Meh, they didn't ask me.
Any of these files require a lot of work to recoup the initial expense.
Hope you are doing well, be safe and take care!
I loved every aspect of this! I have used the MusicNomad and was rooting for it but lost myself in the video presentation, the wry humor, and your knowledge base. I will still use it, albeit more knowledgeably - now with cutting oil (thanks to the embedded subliminal tutorial) ! Liked and subscribed.
Michael (Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo Violet) thanks for watching!
Glad you enjoyed the video.
It's hard not to love the MusicNomad file. It's a great piece of engineering design. I just used it again last weekend, hoping something new would "pop up", but it does what it is designed to do. It does that really well too, but it's leaving a bit too wide of crown for me.
I've been trying to "cheat" the file, leaning it side-to-side, much like I do with the StewMac Z file. The results aren't the same, at least for me.
I can easily see what I'm doing with the SM-Z, but the MusicNomad-S seems to block my POV, and I feel a bit blind when using it in such a manner. Running it upright feels natural, as it was designed to do.
It is a great tool for starting the repair of heavily worn frets, and finishing with a second file for the thin crown. At least that's how I'm approaching it.
As for oil, just a drop on the diamond grit of the file. Do your filing on the fret, wipe the fret and the file with a paper towel. Add a new drop of oil, hit the next fret.... later, rinse and repeat.
You probably won't have to actually "clean" your file. At least not a deep cleaning to remove embedded fret debris.
Thanks for your sub, welcome to the family of doing things for no good reason.
Be safe and take care!
I'm actually a bit baffled by this video. I have used the Music Nomad file and I get a needle tip crown every time I use it, it's much thinner than the results in this video. Maybe there are some QC issues and he got a lemon.
Returnality, thanks for watching!
Your "needle tip" crown width using the MN S-File is baffling to me.
I have to really cheat the file, leaning it greatly side-to-side to get a narrow-ish crown width.
This is a process I use with the StewMac original Z-file, but that's how the SM-Z is designed to be used.
I find the side-to-side process with the MN-S file a bit awkward in comparison. Kinda like driving with my eyes shut.
The S-file, as designed has a ±1/32" wide safety rib to skate on the leveled crown area. I like the design idea of this. But it also wants to leave a ±1/32" wide crown unless the file is leaned side-to-side, which I feel defeats the design intent. I also find the leaning of the file yields a less than true crown.
Since I'm getting a finish crown close to 1mm wide, I have to either cheat the file, or just grab another file... which I typically do.
Please let me know the process you are using with the S-file to get such fine final crown lines.
Would be interesting to hear your process and take on the tool.
Thanks again for watching, be safe and take care!
@@theNextProject I took a closer look at my S-file and compared it to yours. Mine has a MUCH thinner center line to my eyes. This seems to be a QC issue.
I personally dislike the S-file anyways because it leaves incredibly harsh tool marks that are just an absolute pain to get rid of. Right now my go to is the normal fret dagger 2.0. It's fast, effective, and doesn't leave abysmal scratches all over the frets.
Could be. My S-File has a fat 1/32" (± 1mm) wide safety rib.
Works pretty good until it hits the rib, then it's built-in features kinda come to a halt. If I rock the file side-to-side for a finer crown, I'm cheating the file design, and might as well use a different file.
Maybe I did get a dud, idk.
I really like the idea, but not the function and as you mention the coarse cut too.
I find it to be a rough-work file, which I don't need too often.
Really amazing video.
Also interesting, ironic and somehow appropriate.
This week I’ve been working closely with the factory where the Diamond Dagger file is made, and exploring every possible way to squeeze any more improvement from the file’s performance, function, comfort and durability…. which is actually a never ending process.
So as I’m sitting in the hotel restaurant having dinner after a long day, mindlessly scrolling through UA-cam… into my feed pops this video!
Have to admit I was a bit apprehensive to click the play button... 😬
But I have to give major props on the thorough and rigorous testing methods, and the punishing fret file torture laboratory you’ve created! It was quite riveting and suspenseful to watch (for a guitar nerd)… regardless of the results.
Did I expect to (co)win? Not really…
Being the the little guy going up against the private equity owned and funded behemoth that Stew-Mac has become, as well as many other larger, well funded companies who often make some quality tools (which I also use), I expected to be at least competitive.
Guess it just goes to show that an innovative idea, when well thought out and carefully executed, can compete, or often beat a huge brand.
So I think we can call this a win 😉 While continually striving to do better.
If anyone has questions about the Diamond Dagger, or any other FretGuru tools, reply here in the comments, or reach out to me at the obvious FretGuru website. Ask for Bernie.
Bernie, thanks for watching, and the really great comment too!
To be honest, this test was really tough to call. All of these files are right there, all at the heels of the next one. That made it tough, my ranking shifted continually, but when the dust settled...
Each file I tested has its strengths, whether it was price, fit and finish, function, or just a little bit of everything.
I was impressed by the Baroque file, actually better than I expected for the money and the downside (for me) was the overall size which limits its ease of use in all areas. Detached necks would be fine, but acoustics, set necks situations require some gymnastics with this file.
Maybe the biggest surprise was my complete distaste for the StewMac Compact Z-file, which has such a (cult) following, I felt I was missing something. However, I could barley use it for more than a few frets without it cutting into my hand...nope, it has gone back to StewMac ( SM does have a great customer service ).
The affordable offset (knock off) file from Bitterroot guitars, is actually a pretty good file. Once I got beyond the extremely sharp edges as delivered (I softened the edges), it actually worked pretty well. It was more versatile than the Baroque, due to the rounded (spot crowning) ends.
The MusicNomad was my expected winner before I started the test. It really is a nicely designed tool. I know it went through testing and research, but once I used it I questioned what I was doing wrong. I was really disappointed, and figured that I must suck at this stuff, but I kept at it.... It delivered what it was designed to do, and that is to coarsely file a reasonably wide crown.
A lot of my work begins about where the MN S-file stops. I've continued to try it, and if I "cheat" the built-in design safety-limitation, I can get the crown a bit thinner but still need to reach for a finish-file.
Perhaps no one else goes for thin crown lines. Maybe it is just me!
That left me with the SM Original Z, which I've used for a number of year, and your DD 2 file which is new to me.
I am very use to the way the offset "V" of the SM Z-file works, so I can easily get a pretty good crown. Your DD 2 file was easy to understand and navigate with no on-ramp time wasted.
I see the SM original Z requiring more user training and attention, and its next tier pricing, kept it from cleanly taking the top spot. It is a great file - for me.
Your file has done well, surprised and impressed me a bit as too. I will continue to use and torture it on upcoming projects, comparing it with the other files over time as well.
Slightly off topic, but I don't hear much about "lubrication" when using diamond fret files.
I recently started using oil on the files (3 and 1 oil currently). I believe it may slow the cutting rate down a little, but the payoff is not needing to clean the file, and potentially longer file life. Time will tell.
Side note, I do have you fret end file, been using that side-by-side with the SM end file . Honestly, your end file is my go-to. The SM end file is a bit anemic, but its small size is occasionally handy.
Keep up the great work and products, we all appreciate it!
Thanks again for watching and your comment, as I greatly appreciate your time.
Be safe and take care,
John D.
@@theNextProject Hey John,
I appreciate your thoughtful, in depth comments, and have discovered and been enjoying your other videos as well!
“…at the heels of the next one.” That’s a great description and visual, which could likely describe most every tool at your workbench and mine.
As you’ve found, it’s rarely a day-and-night difference of any one tool (though there are some truly game-changing tools), but in finding that 1%-5% improvement in each tool and process, which creates the efficiency and puts the “flow” in your shop’s workflow.
While also raising the level of the final result.
I didn’t know until more recently there was a name for this 1%-5% principal, or philosophy (of sorts), though I’ve always subscribed to it.
The principal is called “Aggregation of marginal gains”, which says, instead of looking for the large and dramatic improvements in any one place, consider the compounding effect of small 1% (or more) improvements, spread over the entire process, which - when added up can create dramatic results.
So yes, super interesting - if unpredictable - results of your shootout.
MN usually has good/great and innovative products, they typically set the bar fairly high, so their crowning file seemed like it would be a contender for the top spot. So that was a surprise.
I’ve also tried the compact Z File, and also found it puzzling, fatiguing to use, and generally a half baked / poorly executed design.
As well as the others in your test, which are also part of my extensive file collection, landing somewhere on the usable/useful/pretty darn good continuum.
You’ve got me very intrigued about running a diamond file “wet”! Up to this point I’ve only tried Dyna Glide on a file with teeth. Will be trying this soon.
You’re not alone… I’m also very obsessive about razor thin and precise crown lines.
It was this obsession - as well as the disappointment with the tools that were currently available - that started me down the path of developing a file that could create these centerlines in a consistent, controllable and intuitive way, which resulted in the Dagger 2.0 (the one with steel teeth) and the Diamond Dagger you have.
Glad to hear the FretGuru fret end file is serving you well.
This was actually the first FretGuru “product”, which wasn’t really intended to be a product at all.
It started as merely a solution to my being underwhelmed and disappointed with the SM fret end file - for similar reasons you are.
It was mainly that the SM file is too narrow in width, which gives it an unstable platform to work from, and makes it too easy to lean / topple over, which would make the corner of the file dig a groove next to the fret.
So after making a new design by extensively modifying a Swiss jeweler’s file, and being stoked with the results - and not thinking anything beyond my personal problem being solved…
I then I had a good friend/exceptional luthier visiting the shop, and I said, “Hey, I just made this fret end file… give it a try and let me know how it works for you”.
He was blown away by the function, and how stable it was, allowing him to slide right into the lowest corner of the fret, without any fingerboard damage.
He immediately asked if I could make 6 of them for him and his guys, to which I reluctantly replied, “maybe”.
Which then began to snowball as the word got out, which started many years of me personally making these fret end files by modifying Swiss jeweler’s files, to the point where my hands and wrists were ruined. Can you say “the opposite of profitable?”
The secret sauce on these files (aside from the special tooth cut) is just how surgically/insanely flat and smooth the bottom of the file is. I’m not afraid of anyone copying this, because nobody would be stupid enough to go through what we do to make them so flat. These are still the opposite of profitable.
You’ve probably noticed that FretGuru has a small, tightly focused product range. That’s by design. I figure you guys (or the market) don’t need another capo or string winder.
So I only begin to design a tool when the current available options leave me disappointed, and only move forward if I’ve come up with something that I confidently feel can be game-changing - or at least significantly improve the experience and results while at the guitar workbench.
If another company already has a product that performs at the highest level that I demand, then I generally won’t even bother to design or offer a similar product.
We have a few game changers in the works, which have been in development for a few years. I’d be glad to give you a preview when they’re ready, in exchange for your astute observations and input.
You can reach out to me at the obvious FretGuru website, or directly at: fretguru@ G Mayle dot com (in code so the bots and spammers don’t have a field day).
Thanks again, I appreciate your dedication to this work!
Bernie/FretGuru
@@FretGuruHi Bernie, how to crown a narrow and quite short fret wire like jescar 43080 with your diamond dagger?
@@theNextProjectHi John, same question as i asked Bernie, how about your take on small wire for all of the file you’ve tested?
Hey Bobby, Thanks for watching!
I won't speak for Bernie, but I would expect the Diamond Dagger to work well on 43080 wire.
For this test, I was using 51100 Jescar SS, and some StewMac nickel wire that was roughly the same. I also used the DD on a squire recently, it had pretty narrow wire and all went well.
Hope this helps.
Good video, I have a "NOT SO PRO TIP" for you, from another industry, lose the oil/cutting fluid, and apply chalk to your file every couple frets, the chalk stops the file from loading, Caution, I've not used it on a diamond file, only regular files, but the concept is the same
sthom, thanks for watching!
Good tip, and I have used chalk on both regular steel tooth file and tried it on the diamond files.
To my surprise, oil actually worked better on regular steel file for a recent project/experiment. Results may vary depending on the type of metal being filed and scale of project however.
My recent "experiment" had my steel file continually plugging up heavily with and without chalk, then I tried 3and1 oil on it, and barely had any issue, other than an oily file.
That test was removing a shoulder from a cast metal insert that was chucked in my drill press. It was spinning, I was filing...and cussing a bit initially. The cast metal really stuck to the steel file. My file brush did little to remove the material from the file, had to pick most of it out. Then I figured "why not try oil", and almost no issue with plugging, and the file brush removed everything easily at that point. I was a bit shocked.
But, it's oil, it can be a bit messy. Good times.
Thanks again for watching and mentioning chalk too.
Be safe and take care!
That’s some nerdy, niche stuff…I loved it…great work my man 👍
LOL "nerdy, niche", bwahaha, that got me laughin!
👍
I did buy the centered z-file and found it just fine… got a nice thin crown , found it cut well, would def try the cutting oil next time. So although you rated it last, in my hands it gave good results.
Mike, thanks for watching and I'm glad to hear the SM file is working.
Did you get the full-length center file, or the compact version?
I found the compact version caused my hand to cramp after a couple frets, and that the rubber grip didn't really improve the issue - at least for me it didn't.
Also, the edges were pretty sharp, so while it did cut well I felt it wasn't any better than the others I tested and was the least enjoyable to use.
That's just my experience.
Glad it's working for you.
Be safe and take care!
After trying several different files, what seems to work for me now is the original fret guru file(non diamond) to cut through very quickly and shape the crown then the zfile for super thin center strip. I use an old toothbrush to constantly clean the diamond file from buildup.
I got the fret guru file when it first came out, it was about $40. Id recommend that file for the money or the hosco regular crowning files…a little more work but they’re not expensive and high quality…i prefer the hosco dressing file over the stewmac anyday
K Matax, thanks for watching and sharing your tool/process too.
I'm really like the original zfile for the hairline too, just not easily getting there with any of these other files.
I was really surprised by how much I hate the SM mini centered Z-File, and how many people claim to love it, oh well. I actually have an old offset Z-file that I cut the handle off of. It's basically the offset mini-Z, not centered. I actually use and enjoy the old file that I cut down, but not the new official model.
Thanks for the info on the FG and Hosco files, good stuff!
Be safe and take care!
Stewmac has a safety edge z file which is great for beginners
Tommy, thanks for watching!
Yep, the SM safety edge Z is nearly identical to the SM original Z, only without the diamond grit on one surface.
They do make/sell really get files.... accept for that mini-me-Z thingy I tried, LOL.
Hope all is well for you, be safe and take care!
I agree the full-sized original Z-file is an excellent file. Not sure what you mean by it needing considerable experience though. I think it's basically foolproof, requiring the least user experience, compared to most crowning files. The only problem is the cost. But it's one of the few Stewmac products that I think is worth what you pay. Crowning is a pain with a bad file (and there are quite a few like that). The Z-file's two flat angled facets avoid the problems with curved-concave files designed for one fret width only. The Z-file is almost "one size fits all".
VW, thanks for watching!
I feel the Original Z requires a better eye and attention span, than do many of the concave files. It goes where the user drives it, the concave files just ride the rails (frets), for better or worse.
The Orig-Z won't give you a crown, unless you drive it to a crown. But like you say, it is one-size fits all file.
The Orig-Z is my go-to, and it will do anything I direct it to - at a price as you say. Yep.
I was really disappointed by the SM centered V file. Personally, I like the Original far better, but many will debate that. To each there own.
I kinda see the concave files as having a generic built-in auto-pilot (the Tesla of fret files), the user isn't required to do as much driving, and the file won't do anything special unless directed to do so.
They don't require as much personal touch, or finesse for "basic" crowning.
But we want something better than basic, so we reach for the Orig-Z.
Just had a mental image/comparison of the the MusicNomad S-File to bumper bowling. An oddly accurate comparison, lol. It just rides the rail, then skates and does nothing. No gutter ball, no strike either, just along for the ride.
Thanks for the comment, I like hearing from others and how they get along with this kind of stuff.
Be safe and take care!
Great video! The StewMac files work well for me, but always make my hands sore (both the compact one and the offset Z file). I want to try the Music Nomad fret file, but my Music Nomad nut files have already started losing their diamond coating, so I'm wary of buying their other diamond file products.
Philip, thanks for watching!
I was having some serious hand cramps from using the SM mini file, and getting poked by the sharp edges too. Ended up wrapping part of it in masking tape just so I could test the file more. So my takeaway with the SM Mini was "why should I use a tool that makes a less than enjoyable task, painful?".
The MusicNomad S-File is really well made, I like the innovation and such, but it seems be a rough-in type file. Take a set of heavily worn and plateau leveled frets and bring them back to near crown. Then grab the SM original Z to finish the job... Doesn't really seem like the ideal workflow to me. But maybe I'm just a bit weird.
I did attempt to use it on a strat refret, but the new frets barely needed any leveling, even at the fall-away area. The MN S-file, has such I wide crown ( approx. 1mm ), there was nothing it could do to help, so I used other files to do the crowning.
I have some MN nut files (new to me), so I'll keep and eye on them to see how quickly they wear - thanks for the heads up on that.
Be safe and take care!
I almost bought the whole set of music nomad nut files😮😮😮
I bought the StewMac z file and had to send it back. Missing an area of grit and tool marks on the edges of the smmoth filing face that could chew the fretboard. Very disappointing. They easily refunded my money. I used a triangle file to complete the job.
Picker, thanks for watching.
The compact Z file I tested was pretty rough on the smooth surfaces too.
I still use my original offset z-file.
Old-school triangle files are good to have on hand.
Good luck with your projects.
Be safe and take care!
I've used Baroque unfortunately the coating is not even.
Music nomad looks interesting however as you said second file is needed to finish the job.
Thanks for the video
Johny, thanks for watching!
Sorry to hear of your poor experience with the Baroque file. I think there is a "break-in" period for that file, and maybe some of the others too.
I was really excited to try the Music Nomad file, and while it is a great and innovative design, it didn't really fit my needs. I've dropped a few hints to MN, suggesting a version 2, but we shouldn't hold our breathe on that.
As you mentioned, it does need a second file to finish the job, which is sad to say.
Right now I'm splitting project work between the FretGuru Diamond Dagger 2, and the old StewMac original Z-File (offset "v" design). Both of these files seem to get me where I need to go.
Good luck with your projects!
Good one ole buddy. Hi Laura 😆❤️
Hey Mike, good to hear from you!
I'll pass the word along.
Take care my friend!
Bought the bitteroot one after watching this video 😊
I hope yours doesn't have the sharp edges.
If it does, a little file work and it will be good to go!
Thanks for watching, take care
A simple triangle file can work well, and has for years.
Dugbert, thanks for watching!
True, triangle files do work, and have been used by a lot of us.
This is a test of diamond files, which I switched to a long time ago, being the SM original Z.
It was a great expense and full of frustration due to the surface continually plugging up.
Since adding a cutting fluid to my process, the need to clean the file has been resolved.
Even when I used 1/4 round and triangle files, I had to clean the teeth of those files, so possibly using cutting fluid may help that style file as well, but I haven't tried fluid with those.
Hope all is well, take care!
Hey buddy, hope all is well. Sorry about my last few comments. I had a temporary loss of sanity. I have the Z file which i like but its not that easy to use. They all seem expensive to me. The z file definitely has some sharp edges but it'll work with the neck on. Just keep it clean. My first file was 5 dollars and i still uae it to take off that center line, 😆 i still have a few builds I'm working on. The latest is a fender stratocaster 50's Stratocaster with a quite wonderful Standard Squier Stratocaster neck. They both fit like a glove. The body's in great shape and is mint green. The neck is a lefty that i converted to a right handed. I wish i could afford the fender neck but this one is a step up from the normal Squier necks in that it has the same specs as a fender. I wish i could make the one ghat originally came with this body. The verterra has it in roasted maple and 7.25 radius like the original did.
ranman! good to hear from you, and no worries. I could tell you were dealing with some tough times. Hope things are going better for you now.
Agreed, the Z file probably has the largest need for user input and control, but it can also deliver great results. My impatience often gets in the way of proper handling. I find myself needing to step-back, regroup, slow myself down and work the file, not just rush the process. Haste makes waste, and I'm pretty good at haste!
I'm finding that using oil (3 and 1 oil most recently), really resolves the need to clean the diamond files. The oil keeps everything suspend, no more plugged up diamond grit. I wish I would have stumble apon using oil a few years ago.
Sounds like a great project you have going. I'll check your channel, you may have that guitar in one of your vids.
Good to hear from you again, take care my friend!
@@theNextProject, thank you, good to hear from you too. I'm ok but it's still very hard here. Good word man. Lots of peoples lives are crashing. I love guitar's but I cannot focus on it for long or I get accused of not doing what I could be doing instead. So, I have projects now, that don't get done. Focusing on the garden now. Food for the future, if there is one.
Three-corner file, good eye, steady hand, NO GIMMICKS. Simple.
Hey OutrageDuck, thanks for watching!
Yep, 3 corner file, gurian file, various shaped steel tooth files, then diamond files. Some may be better than others, but all good tools.
The carpenters hand saw was updated to the circular saw, then miter saws.... Steps in evolution, all good tools, all will do the job.
Constantly looking to do better work, with less work.
All good!
Be safe and take care!
Do you consider it a good thing whether or not the crown line is super thin? You just mentioned it in the part I'm listening to. I would fret (haha) about ruining the leveling.
Andrew, thanks for watching!
Crown width seems to be subjective, but I personally attempt to reduce the flat leveling area to a thin "hairline", at least as much as possible. I didn't waste much time during this test trying to get a hairline, as a couple of the files just won't go there.
As for ruining the leveling, I guess that depends on how heavy handed the person is doing the crowning, dressing and polishing.
If I happen to crown and finish the hairline away, it would likely be in the ten-thousandths of an inch amount.
Interesting thing, while I was working and re-working this test board, I only removed 0.007" of material total during all the re-levels. So a lot of leveling didn't take much off the frets. So even less is removed bringing the flat level into a crowned shape, again depending on how heavy handed the person is.
For me, the finer the crowned line, the less finish work and smoother polished frets I can make.
Better bending, smoother feel... better playing guitar.
That being said, I've seen, and worked on some frets that I call "plateau crowned". They are pretty much flat top leveled, maybe a little crowning to ease the edges, then fine sanded and polished.... still a flat top fret, just shiny.
So, to each their own I guess.
Hope this helps explain what I mentioned. Thanks for asking, take care!
I bought the fret dagger 2.0...do you have any tips on using it ? I have used diamond fret files and own a couple but wanted to try the Dagger...looks like you can only "push it" and not back and forth.. I just realized that you used the Diamond Dagger 2.0 and not the standard Dagger 2.0 with the looks like cutting grooves...no wonder I found it for $45.
Ross, thank for watching!
The Fret Dagger 2.0 gets really good reviews, and should be a good tool for you to have.
I haven't used that particular file, but i have used gurian double-edge steel tooth files for a long time.
Your file should cut really well, and if it is like they gurian, if not careful might leave some "chatter" marks.
If you can, do some test filing to get the hang of the tool. Once you get the feel for it, you should have no trouble.
Yes, the dagger 2.0 is a "one-direction" file, not a big deal as it should really cut well.
Good luck with your projects!
@@theNextProjectI happen to have 2 necks that are worn out that I can and will practice on for sure..Thanks for the information
.
I got my Fret Dagger 2.0 Gurian type file in and finally used it and it works great..got the thin red mark onmy fret crowns and buffed them up and now ready to go. @@theNextProject
Excellent!
Glad that file is working well for you.
Good luck with your projects!
Fret Maestro.
FirstWorker, thanks for watching!
I haven't tried the Fret Maestro, as it is a bit more expensive than any of the files that I've tried so far, and radius specific.
It looks like there is a new maestro "omni pro" version for conical radius boards. It appears the main depth-stop handle part has a flat bottom to follow the fingerboard radius shape, allowing for any radius...
Since I work on a number of different fret radius', I'd have to invest in numerous radius-specific maestro file inserts, or possibly the new omni-pro version.
The maestro is ± $190 per radius set, or a pre-determined 4 radi set for $600, or Pro package for $2000 which appears to have all radi and the Omni Pro too.
Interesting tools, just can't justify them at the moment.
Hope all is well, be safe and take care!
I’ve recently had to buy some electrical tools and the prices are reasonable, nothing outrageous…then I look at luthier tools and it is absolutely ridiculous…over 100 bucks for 1 file…and that’s just one example…I can’t think of any trade where the price of tools is so expensive…maybe there is but I don’t know of any!!!
Thanks for watching!
Completely get what you're saying. Maybe the electrical tool market has a larger audience, and the tools are mass produced.
Luthier repair tools cater to a rather small following, so it's kinda like everything is "custom".
A fret slotting circular sawblade is $100, but we can buy a sawblade at Lowes for $15 and up. Of course the Lowes blade is made by the tens-of-thousands, and marketed at the home DIY person.
I looked into this kinda thing a few vids back.
ua-cam.com/video/qE_a7SPZtb4/v-deo.html
Be safe and take care!
@@theNextProject ….agreed…well said!!!!
Off topic...doesn't the "Z" file by StewMac put the ridge of the fret off center? And wouldn't that affect intonation?
Hello, hello and thanks for watching!
Great question, and potentially that could be the case.
Typically the SM Original Z file, with the offset "V" surface, is worked in a way that rounds one side of the fret at a time. With each pass you angle the file slightly more upright, giving you a rounded fret side, while retaining a centered crown area. Then the file is flipped over and the other side of the file is used to round the opposite side of the fret, again filing from an angle to an upright path. Hopefully ending up with a center hairline crown.
This process is why I mentioned that the StewMac Original Z-file requires the most user input. You are driving the file to position the center hairline crown. It takes a little practice, but the file can do a great job once the driver is trained.
Most of the other files have a concave filing surface, and a different kind of attention is required.
None of the files are "auto-pilot", but perhaps the closest to that would be the Music Nomad S-file. However I feel it stops short of reaching the destination. So, you need to reach for another file to finish the trip.
Sorry for the weak analogies.
I hope this helps explain the SM Original Z file.
Thanks again for watching, be safe and take care!
@@theNextProject I see. Thanks for the explanation!
I think the offset it key. No reason trying to hover so close to the soundboard.
Sam, thanks for watching!
Agreed, offset is a huge improvement.
The otherwise rounded nose on a couple files also helps greatly.
Take care!
So I have the music nomad s file. I have had the same experience with the center line being a bit too wide, and I noticed if I don't use it wet it scratches up the frets pretty bad. I been looking at the fret guru files. Do you prefer the diamond over the standard fret guru files?
Johnathan, thanks for watching!
Yep, I hear ya.
Using some lubricant with the S-file does help reduce the aggressive cut you mention. I really like all the innovation in that file, but I'm finding myself using other files more often at this time.
As for the orginal FretGuru Dagger fret file. I haven't used it, so I can't give you hands-on feedback, sorry.
I have used steel tooth files for a long time, and they can do a great job. They also require the user to really be tuned-in to driving the file. The three-corner and the old gurian 1/4 round files can do great work, or they and quickly destroy frets.
I haven't used cut tooth files in some time, so I'm probably not a good source for the info you seek.
Currently I'm primarily using the SM original Z, and FretGuru Diamond Dagger 2 files, with 3and1 oil as a lube. I am always looking to try new things, and hopeful that Music Nomad with have and update to there file in the future too.
Good luck with your projects!
@@theNextProject you like the z original better than the z centered?
Personally I do. Others may prefer the centered however, to each their own.
I like the fine control that is offered by the original Z. I can focus on rounding one side of the fret at a time, not have to watch both sides. Again, others may prefer the centered version.
One thing I don't like is the "compact" SM file. My hand was cramping while using it. It might be okay for a couple frets, spot work, but definitely not a full fretboard.
I sent the compact Z file back to StewMac, that was the best part of my experience with that file.
@theNextProject I been using a triangle file and the s file. I have used a few others. But I just bought the z original I'm gonna give it a try. I like the fact that you still have some control.
Sometimes with the s file I rock it side to side to thin up the line a bit. But i don't like doing that.
Also for the oil I end up using music nomad f one oil. Works well.
Sounds good, any lube, even the musicnomad f one oil should help keep the file from plugging up.
I've rocked the S-File side-to-side to get a narrower crown too, but don't like that I can't easily see what I'm doing.
It's good to have all the tools you do, you'll have a solution for any situation.
Good luck with your projects!
How do you clean your file
Ron, thanks for watching!
Since I started using cutting fluid, or 3 and 1 oil with the diamond files, I haven't had to clean the files. I just wipe the file with a paper towel and reapply a drop of oil before starting the next fret.
Before using oil with the file, I had to stop every few frets, use denatured alcohol or similar to soak the file surface, a old tooth brush, or more typically a fine brass "tooth" brush. Looks like a regular tootbrush, but has fine brass wires for scrubbing.
The constant plugging up of my fret file got so bad, I bought a second file just so I could get further down a fingerboard before having to clean the files. Then I'd stop and clean 2 files at one time, then get back to work... Life kinda sucked, all better now.
I hope this helps, good luck with your projets!
@@theNextProject thanks for fast response
i bet stewmac releases a better version of the s file with a smaller safe zone. why is the s file getting so much praise if it has such a fatal flaw?
Bilal, thanks for watching!
SM might borrow the idea and release a file with a smaller safe zone, that would be interesting.
Not sure why the Music Nomad S-file is getting so much praise. I guess everyone else either accepts a wide crown, or is doing something else with the file.
I like the idea, just not the results.
Take care!
👍
Thanks for watching, take care my friend!