The Great European Refugees and Migrants Debate
Вставка
- Опубліковано 3 гру 2015
- Want to join the debate? Check out the Intelligence Squared website to hear about future live events and podcasts: www.intelligencesquared.com
__________________________
Europe is gripped by the biggest migrant crisis since the Second World War. The parallels with that earlier crisis are hard to avoid. When in 1938 tens of thousands were fleeing Nazi Germany, not a single European country agreed to raise its quotas. In response Hitler and Goebbels observed that, while other countries complained about how Germany treated the Jews, no one else wanted them either. This is one of the points that Rabbi Jonathan Wittenberg made in the Intelligence Squared Great European Refugees and Migrants Debate. With the squabbling last month between the countries of Europe over the quota system, the Hungarian government erecting a steel fence on its southern border and Germany and Sweden reintroducing border controls, will this period go down in history as another one when Europe closed its doors?
Some would argue, however, that humanitarian pleas to give a compassionate welcome to the refugees may be admirable, but the numbers entering Europe are simply too high for everyone to be accommodated. Over a million people have already crossed into the continent this year, and the European Union estimates that another 3 million will enter by 2017. Angela Merkel - who of all the European leaders has been most generous in welcoming the refugees - has seen her popularity in Germany plummet amid anxieties about a surge in support for the extreme right. Meanwhile, the declaration by Hungary’s Prime Minister Viktor Orbán that he is defending Europe’s ‘Christian identity’ against a vast ‘Islamic influx’ has given him a boost in the polls.
And now the situation has been further complicated by the horrific attacks in Paris carried out by Isis terrorists on Friday. Evidence has emerged that one of the killers may have posed as a Syrian refugee to enter Europe. Whether or not this can be proved, more European countries look set to impose border controls as a response. What will this mean for refugees who are likely to be trapped in a backlog in the Balkan states, and how will the rising tensions be dealt with?
Joining Rabbi Wittenberg in this major event were: Lord Ashdown, who played a key role in putting Bosnia back on its feet after the war in Yugoslavia; Pia Oberoi, a migration adviser from the UN High Commission for Human Rights; former foreign secretary Sir Malcolm Rifkind; and Hungarian migration expert Balázs Orbán.
![Would We Be Better Off Without Religion? - Christopher Hitchens [2007] ✝️ | Intelligence Squared](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DIR7_X-ahy4/mqdefault.jpg)
It's their country. Xenophobia is an Orwellian term for self loathing and self destruction. The French people have every right to preserve and protect their national heritage, ethnic composition, and culture. This extends to all people in their respective homelands.
+Nicholas Tart BTW, Quebec has a large percentage of muslim population and is rapidly losing its identity. Those guys do not assimilate and their birth rate is higher than other parts of the population. The process in Quebec is certainly slower than in France but it continues unabated.
+Henry C I'm afraid you are correct, except that it';s even worse in Southern Ontario and other parts of the Country. But, there is a silver lining. When you look to areas outside of the Metropolis of Montreal and move towards Quebec City, rural areas or North, this situation is very different. Not only in the demographic and Quebec identity the perception of other groups is not considered an appealing idea. Being from Ontario originally, but having lived across Canada, and having spent considerable time in Saguenay region. I now reside north east of QC and can attest to the fact that these Quebecer's have not forgotten who they are and are extremely nationalistic. I'm not suggesting there isn't a serious problem to deal with. Especially when you make yourself aware of the type of folks who have made their way into politics.
Yasir Naqvi: Ontario Minister of Community Safety and Correctional Services; Government House Leader. Endorses the beating of wives. Minister of Safety? I guess females need to now learn to live in the 7th century and embrace the ideas of legally being beaten and raped in Ontario now.
Omar Alghabra (MP Mississauga Centre), a Sharia Law Supporter, is the new Parliamentary Secretary for Foreign Affairs. Was one of the proponents behind the attempt to bring Sharia law in Ontario. He was extremely disappointed when it didn't pass.
Good times, huh?
+ethan intellekt Yes you are right. It is however a matter of priorities. I would not want to hold on to my cultural heritage, if it meant ignoring the plights of so many people. That is in the end a dicision, that is based on strategically cultivated fear.
sNb
No, that is called pathological altruism. Have you ever heard the idea: if you are not congruent you are not in a position to help others? And as a Dr. I had to learn the hard way that you can not force "help" on others, they need to learn to help themselves and become functional beings. Only then can you stand beside them, as a support and encouragement, on their journey. You are deluding yourself otherwise. And this starts with the individual, community, state, ideology, religion. You cannot save people from themselves, or blame others for the state of others. This is a very complex subject, but when it comes down to the where the dirt hits the road each person is responsible for the state of their state.
Henry C
I agree with pretty much everything you have stated. What are you doing in your neck of the woods to thwart the expansion? We have our own plans locally, but each Canadian region has its local genre and the local folk have different tunes to which they vibe.
I think those of us who are aware of the term nwo know that they will use all and any tactics to bring the numbers down. People are waking up. Once there are 10% of us in relation to the entire population, if organized. We will see success. It's understanding strategy and the long game that brings about a change.
Why must people be imported? Why not put policies into place thar support and encourage native populations to have more children?
This gives British reasons to vote out of EU.
This is disgusting.
+Tommy England Constant disturbance has forced the euro to loose value, who gains from this other than murica? This entire scenario was started by them, they are directly responsible, maybe a migrant only flight from Turkey or Lebanon to LA is a solution???
+Tommy England All someone needed to talk about is The Coudenhove Kalergi plan & The Pan European Movement.
Where was the intelligence? I watched the whole thing but blinked couple of times. Maybe that is why I missed it.
The Hungarian is the only one on that stage not to be completely hamstrung and emasculated by political "correctness"....Good for him.
O where is Douglas Murray when you need him ......
I wonder if they even tried to invite him
Why Douglas Murray
And Prof. Matt Goodwin....
This panel in the main is dated...
Seems to be a vote winner to give away your neighbor's home and belongings to distant strangers you don't even know??
NO???
So WHERE are they going to live??
Humanitarian concerns include those of the host countries, whose citizens are facing the erosion of their culture, while contorting themselves to accommodate the culture of immigrants.
Why is it no one is asking why some Arab countries like Saudi Arabia/Dohfar/Kuwait/United Arab Emirates not taking any in ?
Because they`re not white so they`re immune from criticism,its practically illegal to do so nowadays.
The first time in history when a dying civilization has nothing waiting in the wings to be replaced by that has any hope of advancing the condition of the human situation.
Thanks for loading this up.
Protect the European people and our identity and culture!
You cannot compare the 2nd WW2 refugees (from Europe) to the millions that have entered Europe in the last few years of people from various countries of Africa/Asia/Arabs that been flooding into Europe mainly muslims in the last 4 years
I hate the argument about how we're all migrants. It's total nonsense.
+Gee G It doesn't even deserve to be regarded as an 'argument'.
Best question from the audience imo
1:13:09
however we will not be talking about racial identity
and how this much migration will destroy the European races
no will will not talk about that because the thought police have labeled it politically incorrect aka nwo
so wicked these day paddy makes me wonder if they got anything on you
In a couple of words...like everyone else, no one knows what to do.
like the respect you mean meted out to the woman raped by 20 said migrants in Sweden
is that the sort of respect we are talking about yes ?
'World of my Own' the new hit single from Paddy Ashdown
Nigeria has a space programme yet cannot feed it's population ,WTF .
“Space program” is loosely defined in this particular situation.
If I was the head of state for a relatively rich country (I'll just refer to as 'A') that was a major player in the destruction of a region (that I'll just refer to as 'B'), that is flushing their toilets with cleaner water than what they're drinking in large parts of region B, that literally annexed one of the most important parts of region B and created a new state that the majority of region B despises, and then as head of state A I decided to propose to my citizens that it would be a fucking brilliant idea to essentially send an open invite to all the inhabitants of region B to come and live in my rich state; I'd get laughed at to the brink of suicide!
Over 2.1 billion people in the developing world live on less than £2.50 a day. If they see open borders in the EU where do you think they would rather be? If the EU do-gooders were in the last Titanic lifeboat (max capacity 16 people) they would pick up all 1500 passengers, and all would drown.
Very well done
After the humanitarian elements have been addressed for those in genuine need. We must address the economic element. Should a community such as the UK, that has for many many generations paid taxes, fought wars for their freedom, developed infrastructure such as housing, schools, fair governance and hospitals, hand all that wealth automatically to those who have failed to do so in their own community? If the answer is yes then I will be at the gates of Buckingham Palace tomorrow demanding free lodging and an orb and sceptre.
What a self-opinionated, smug pontificator Ashdown is.
For all those demanding compassion and opening of the borders, practice what you preach. Gather all the homeless from your nearest city center and shelter them under one roof in your home. Yes it may get a little overcrowded and you have to queue to use the bathroom or struggle to pay the higher food and utility bills. Some of your house guests might have strongly opposed views against your values or may be carriers of disease, but hey you have shown compassion and solved the homeless situation.
23:45
"I'm a medic."
"I'm a computer scientist."
And I am a ballerina.
And I bet you are all straight from Syria.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Balerina profession is the only one where people do not need to be affraid of immigrants taking their jobs!
On the immigration discussion in Europe, smart people with voids for brains. Why is Europe rich and a nice place to try to get into? 1492 through to the Industrial Revolution, how were we getting rich and comfy..... for some? Eh? How many civilizations did we destroy in our march across the planet? Sucking up generational inheritances on the bleeding backs of slaves. Having exhausted our serfs in the growing pains of civilizational puffery? Which communities were those? The ones now banging on your sacred doors. Now you want to stay home? And be all superior? I don’t expect you to feel obligation, accountability, that has never been part of your wretched character.
And after the Arabs had given us mathematics, medicine, concepts of hygiene and translated the classice so the Renaissance could read and pillage them what did we give in return, the rifle and the example of intolerance and grievance they have now perfected.
As for the assimilating immigrant, why not follow the English example: their assimilation into the cultures of North America was pretty stunning wasn't it? And as for the fear of terrorism imagine how the Powhatan felt when an English ship hove into view.
It is too late to go back, perhaps and the reparations are too huge to contemplate but it might change the vocabulary of the yakkers.
So dear immigrant: do what the Europeans have done since classical times, kill, rape and pillage, and bring poets to write anthems, and a flag. Most important.
The point here is not to “blame Europe for everything” as per your pathetic mewl but to suggest the “lady doth protest infinitely too much” “ let her go and paint an inch thick” and stop whining.
Try and do what Cyrus did, from the culture before your petulant jealous one god landed.
I prefer the more traditional debates, hosted by an unbiased moderator.
Notice how the lefty Guardian moderator skews the debate giving Ashdown the lions share of the time and singling out muslims, who are not typical muslims from the middle east or Pakistan.
Germany is the richest country in europe bit because it dominates europe. It has huge trade surplices. Britain is one of the most indebted countries in the world its government cannot run the country without borrowing money from the IMF and other sources. How is it that Ashdown does not know this. Leadership is limited to the wealth a leader has available. Germany makes £60 billion a year profit out of Britain alone and much more on top of that from the rest of the world.
Germany has a serious demographic problem it needs and can afford migrants. Britain thanks to its huge migrant population does not have a demographic problem; only problems of assimilation within certain rapidly growing migrant groups. You know the sort that eventually developed and still exists between the Greek and Turkish Cypriots.
Tony Ben was a very eloquent speaker. He genuinely believed he was such a wonderful humanist. A socialist multimillionaire, (in other words an oxymoron). He gave up his title, but not his great inherited wealth to serve the poor working classes. Even so Ashdown reminds me of Ben when he eloquently puts across his opinions that rarely reflect the facts of reality. It is strange how these self-righteous intellectuals have such a superficial view of the world they live in.
This has not aged well.8 years later it’s just getting worse and there is zero political will to agree solutions;in fact we only provide a taxi service into Europe,and we have no idea who these people are.If I was a foreign adversary,I would be rubbing my knees with glee,watching the undermining of European culture
who is also watching this for wsdc?
27:50 - 28:49 question
28:50 - 30:06 answer
Checkmate!
Rich dont pay tax. Just working poor
As an Ethiopian, I think the policy of helping as many as possible in camps within the region makes most sense. There is no moral justification to only help a few that manage to reach Europe. The current Merkel policy also lur perfectly healthy people from safe countries such as Eritrea, all countries in North Africa etc, that could help build their own countries. This also goes for the educated middle/upper class in those countries that are lured to the West. For a poor country like Ethiopia, it's a disaster that there are far more Ethiopian doctors in the US than entire Ethiopia (which is a country of 90 million people!). My parents fled communist Ethiopia in the 80s to Sweden, where I'm raised, so I understand that I come of as a hypocrite. But 3rd world countries would be better of if a) west didn't start wars in hostile regions b) didn't take ANY immigrants (especially not educated folks).
agree. If you hoover up the educated and middle class of thirld world countries allowing them all to settle in EU forever, then the poor countries will never be rebuilt since the human resources will be gone. That will produce more and more migrants who feel there is no future in their own land. A very bad strategy.
TheHanaichirin Exactly, if anything, that's immoral.
My goodness, some of the Pollyana views on this panel have been overtaken by the evidence of history.
Can we have land and resources for our children?
the word is "displaced person"
Since this film was made in 2015 another SIX MILLION have squirmed their way into Britain
ABSOLUTELY 💯 DISASTEROUS!!!! I FEEL FOR YOUR BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY!😪😪😪😪😪😪
Thank god brexit happened. Paddy wanted open borders
In fairness, he acknowledged the need for policies, but I found his perspective somewhat naive nonetheless.
It doesn't matter how desperate they are, they are not willing to give up their customs and culture which put them in the situation they're in. Europe is a different culture and cultures clash. It's not right that women want to come to America and cover their faces. Free people don't hide their faces. If they're that desperate, they'll change and adopt the culture of the country they run to.
Paddy Ashdown is right. The refugee issue will lead to conflict.
Europe is over.
are you crazy ?.......
pfff. loads of correctness bull...
a year later and so many truck incidents more ... Still nothing changed .
#2daysafterbarcelona
Wow, Ive never been a fan of Paddy Ashdown but he knocked it out the box with his closing speech. Props to Paddy
Should immigrants or refugees, change their habits and even their religion that was the cause to begin with of their failure as a society or culture?
I am so jealous - I too would love to live in europa, but no one will give me a visa (I know because I've tried).
those who are saying the refugees want to go home "later" are either lying or idiots.
I'm not offering any solutions, at this point all the options look horrible. europa is finished whether or not they take all these people in.
+mieliav Get a nice tan, storm the border, claim asylum and you're all set. Hell, Sweden will even give you free money and housing!
To Malcolm rifkind.well said
Right off the bat the first speaker adds global warming as to a reason people will be going to the UK. The UK is a small group of ISLANDS. Why would they flee from a continent to islands as ocean levels rise?
Because when people are inevitably forced to flee their homes, they don't just go to the next safe country, they open a map and pick out the 5 best places in the world to go to, and for many people the UK will be in that list. Rising sea levels will affect the UK, but not enough to put millions of people off wanting to move here given the chance
57:30 = bold
The moderator is extremely biased and only pointing out the arguments against the migration policy
Guardian boss, it's no surprise really.
Starts at 5:50 with Paddy Ashdon. I hate waffle
that conservative, such typical backward rhetoric.
What constitute as a migrant?Does white people living in Japan or Dubai counts as migrant?Does student counts as migrant?
I'll be glad if somebody could answer me
SEND THEM BACK
I don't always agree with him but Paddy Ashdown always makes a very articulate and strong case for his views. I have a lot of respect for him.
+forfrosne Fantasy and imagination neglecting the facts has never constituted a strong case.
what the F* are most of these comments, humans can be so ignorant
IQ is genetic. Why do we lie
Flouride and poison infertility.
And after all Merkel ...kumbaya.....from all this people..than we have COLOGNE.......New Years Eve......and .......let the same Male perpetrators live under the same Roof with the Girls of that Man who is so sympathetic to them...!!
R.I.P Paddy Ashdown we miss your kind in politics these days. He could not have summed this up better than he did in the line “If you do not do this on the basis of your humanity then you will be left with only one way to do it moats and walls and barbed wire and then you will lose your humanity and you will create another reason for even more wars”. Lest we forget!
Send them back.
Theives
Recolonise Africa.
its still colonized
karma is a bitch
As an American, I believe this debate largely misses the point by calling the current migration a crisis, and not an opportunity. Excepting a tiny minority of indigenous peoples, my country is made up entirely of immigrants, down to the last man. It is also, and not by coincidence, the richest and most powerful nation on the planet. Successive waves of immigrants were reviled when they first arrived here but, despite that shameful fact, they delivered the labor, the ambition, and the intelligence this country needed to thrive. Rather than arguing about today's immigrants, Europe's nations (and the U.S.) should be FIGHTING for the chance to take them in, put them to work, and reap the benefits of their contribution. The point was rightly made that Europe's population is dropping fast. Who, if not immigrants, are going to fund old-age pensions, provide labor for new industry, and maintain the current standard of living? My country deserves no laurels for the way it has treated immigrants in the past, and certain politicians today are demonizing immigrants and for their own career ambitions. But anyone who understands simple math and has the slightest interest in the future of our economy will welcome these hard-working unfortunates with open arms. History tells us that the small investment needed to resettle them will come back to us one hundred fold.
How easy do Hungarians forget. When they were Eastern European Communists looking for freedom. After their uprising of 1956 when Western Europe would take them in, they were not as proud as they are today. Maybe they need to remember those years, especially when thinking of refugees. Hungarians were desperate refugees themselves. Over 200,000 Hungarians had fled and let me remind you it's a country where they look up to Attila the Hun and even call their children Attila. Parties like Jobbik where they parade dressed like Hitler and are of course against the EU. Hungarian fascism is on the rise. How fast do they forget that once they were starving refugees.
200,000 university students and skilled-workers fled the country. They integrated and worked hard wherever they were accepted. in Nowadays these many illiterate agressive 3rld worlders come illegally to Europe in 4 months. I rest my case.
Propaganda, nothing more.