Is REBREATHER DIVING a waste of money? - Breaking Even the JJ CCR
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- Опубліковано 5 сер 2024
- I thought about going into Rebreather Diving for some time. Rebreathers are expensive toys, though and I asked myself if it was really worth it to buy a Rebreather like the JJ CCR, in my case in GUE configuration. Many people tend to really dress up their cost calculations in the favor of the Rebreather. I tried to get a more realistic view on the matter, especially regarding Closed Circuit Rebreathers like the JJ CCR, and created a table in Google Tables you can use for your calculations! Have fun!
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+++ TABLE OF CONTENTS +++
00:00 Intro
02:12 Safety
02:56 Logistics
04:08 Financial Calculations
23:34 Conclusion - Навчання та стиль
![ЛЕБЕДЕВ у ДУДЯ: муху не обманешь 😁 [Пародия]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/E74h5fvVrqs/mqdefault.jpg)
So what do you guys think about getting a Rebreather. Did you find the table helpful?
Buying my Liberty jan 24th. From my perspective there are more aspects for switching to CCR then just the cost of He. 99% of my dives are cold water and I also like photography. Then the warmth and the silence comes into consideration.
So before I purchased my Prism I had an instructor lined up. I purchased the unit and he moved, far away, 2k miles. So I own a 10k USD ccr and no instructor. I found someone to teach me and he was horrible. So I found another person and he is next to impossible to get ahold of. Now I'm here in California with no one to train me. Add to the cost training cost and travel cost. I'm going to have to close my business for 10 days, travel to Florida, pay for training, hotel, etc... The cost is more like 12K for the ccr and training of 5k usd, etc...
Yeah in your very unlucky case, the costs will be around what you calculated
Hi Ben, you have forgot a very important point that you can‘t express in money: with a CCR you own an automatic mobile gas blender machine making possible to breath a perfect mix on any depth. This makes diving much more healthier and reducing the decompression stress to your body. For me, this was one of the key points.
As long as there’s no Helium penalty 😉 (what seems to be the case). But yes, that’s an important point!
And it's just very pleasant to dive them in cold waters, and doing long dives... Personally, I feel better after the dive, than before it. No more dehydration from open circuit dry gas, no more cold from the OC cold gas, perfect O2 in mix on every depth...
Excellent analysis! Thank you for sharing the excel sheet...
I do agree that the safety factor seems to be the deciding push... the big picture as you said! Very helpful discussion here, thanks Ben!
Thank you very much!
Im awaiting my first ccr unit.
Main reasons for me:
- I’m fairly susceptible to depth narcosis. Trimix is way too expensive to be diving every single time I want to go to 30/40 meters. On the CCR it’s easy and “affordable”.
- My main-buddy uses around 50% of the air I’m using. Diving deep is possible, but I’m the limiting factor for duration.
- I’ve had a trip to the deco chamber once before after some deeper wreck diving. I can’t wait to be doing optimal decos with a fixed set point.
- You look cool also f%}%ck with a ccr strapped to your back 😎
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Great information, thank you. I was expecting to see your new CCR at the end of the video.
I can make another video about the unit itself 😄
Great information for those seeking to crossover. My only regret has been not crossing to CCR sooner. For those interested in Trimix, photography and comfort in colder waters it certainly brings benefits.
Yes absolutely. I didn’t cover this, but these are legit points to consider!
Thank you Ben for sharing. After watching your video i am now more convinced to buy the JJ :D
Glad to have you pulled into it 😈
What’s harder to calculate is the amount of deep OC dives you want to do in calendar year but don’t due to the extreme gas costs.
It’s a bit of a cliche, but the idea of “if I owned X, I’d do Y more often” might also apply here
Absolutely! So calculating you might save up money it’s just self-deceive 😂😂
Great video. I would recommend calculating per dive hour rather than per dive. I did a similar calculation after I got my CCR based on time underwater. When I dive OC, it is typically either 2 sixty minute recreational dives or one 120 minute tec dive. With my CCR, I typically double the time underwater. This summer I did a 5 hour dive and only used 50 bar of gas. Based on time underwater my CCR will pay for itself in about 3 years.
Yeah…I thought about that, but many people count dives instead of minutes, that’s why I went for dives. Minutes is more precise though!
Just got through the GUE CCR1 class last week. I'm guessing from the end of your video you'll be there soon enough. A few factors that won me over; Helium isn't just expensive lately, it's hard to get so weather or not you can do a dive might depend on if you can get a fill. Breathing cold dry air isn't the best if you do very long dives and I can say for sure now that I have 20 hours or so on the loop that moist warm air alone is almost worth the price of admission. I have access to several shore dives that get much better deeper and with a CCR I'll be able to do these as I please vs. painful OC logistics, therefore the number of Tech1 dives I'll do with a CCR will easily double or triple per year. And lastly, a lot of my current diving crew is going CCR.
Have fun!
Yeah that’s exactly the thing! It’s not only about price but about more enjoyable dives! Have fun, too!
I feel less exhausted on CCR than OC. The moist air is probably a massive factor in that. I never even realized one of my training dives was over 110 minutes I was so happy and comfortable!
I am working on a similar video. Based on my 2022 diving and current Helium prices I calculated a break even for my JJ of just 3 years. I am not sure if that is supposed to make me feel good or bad. 😉
If you intend to use it for more than 3 years… 😉
Well done! Detailed calculation. I have almost the same dive profile like You. It´s a conservative calculation from a GUE point of view 😀 favouring OC. But the amortisation is similar to other calculations on the WEB with comparable (typical) dive profiles. For me personally the filling station is on the way to the dive spot und my air costs are near 0 (due to special price 😇) So no amortisation for me then.
Not counting the factor that You just do more deep dives with the CCR because You can. For deeper cave dives (in my case in the future) and conservative gas planning the ccr is so far ahead regarding safety, logistic and ranges that it has to be my path in the long run.
Of course 1st thought is then playing around with the calculation until it favours the CCR 😜, well done Your approach to prevent that!
Result for me: Ammortisation - Never, but multiple times superior und more fun. That´s the ugly truth. 😐
Yeah it’s the truth. Diving is not made to earn you money. It’s made to make you happy. And the CCR will not fail that task! 🤣
Before I did ccr 1 I was doing (almost) the same amount of dives as you did. I did change my diving when I became a ccr1 diver. It was possible to do tech 1 /ccr 1 dive every week. I had ccr1 buddies who could also do a 30-50 meter dive every week. If I want to do a dive in ccr1 (or ccr2) range I just put my jj in the car an the right bailout and the rest of the gear and go diving.
After 3 years ccr1 I did 125 dives in the range between 30 and 56 meter. Even if I sell my JJ today it was already cheaper then doing the dives oc. But I didn’t do so much deep dives when I would use oc instead op the ccr. I guess I would have missed my best and most challenging dives because it was hard to get a helium fill or I wouldn’t want to use trimix with poor visibility.
I did almost the (same) calculation as you did. But my conclusion was that I wasn’t doing enough deep dives oc to keep the right experience and routine for doing deep dives. For me it was doing oc nitrox dives max 30 meter or doing more deeper dives and buy a ccr.
Exactly! You can’t really compare because you’d never do these dives on ox but you will do them once you own the CCR
I think your table is good enough. It is hard to improve because it would lead to diminishing returns and ultimately would be limited by unpredictable factors(gas price change, number of dives per year, etc.). In the end would it really mater if cost will break even in 10 years or 10.5. You done a good job with this table.
Yeah…it’s hard to do it precisely while not overcomplicating. Still, the community came up with a new table I’ll release soon.
This is brilliantly done, although it assumes the gas prices will stay fixed (which isn't likely). You can't know the future prices, but the break-even time should also decrease further as gas prices increase. Thanks for sharing.
And you can easily add an increasing factor for the gas price
I love diving CCR. I think doing quick fun dives are still better on OC because it's so quick and light to get into the water. But on a dive I want to enjoy or a deep or extended dive, there is no going back. I love my AP Inspiration. I don't know if it saves me money and I don't care that much. I own a motorcycle and a truck. I don't save money riding the motorcycle because I don't take it to work or shopping or most places. I ride the motorcycle because it's fun. My rebreather costs as much as a motorcycle.
Yes that’s a very good comparison. In the end I think motorcycles are often even much more expensive!
it would be interesting to get DIVE TALK's take on this
Tell them…I’m up for a collaboration
Great exercise, to make it even more complete to can add the cost of the OC equipment (e.g.: Sets of doubles, regulators, etc.) So you can analyze it from the point of view of a recreational diver moving to tech diving. In that line of thought you may dial in the gas cost of becoming Trimix certified.
Or calculate the entire investment to get from zero to CCR. Might be interesting, too.
IMHO it would be a big mistake to go directly from rec to CCR. I know quite a few CCR divers (50-60, I would say), and all of them went through OC Tec phase, the only Qs was how long time they spent there, but all of them became at least normoxic trimix divers before going for CCR. I also know a couple of CCR instructors, and I am sure none of them would accept someone w rec skills-level into a CCR course. So for the sake of this table, I would always consider that no matter what, you did have to spend $$$ on buying the OC equipment ANYWAY and thus it does not need to enter this calculation.
@@DoktorBEN i would suggest rather NOT to open this Pandora box ... 😀
cost analysis makes sense if you are considering OC vs CCR for professional use where you need to be profitable. However even then you should consider all the pros of CCR such as silence, stability, extended time and security.
99% of CCR divers do it for passion, I own a JJ since 1year after 5y of Trimix OC. As I am 34y old, I see the CCR as a permanent switch in my future diving (hopefully for the next 30-40y) so the sooner I was getting into CCR the sooner I would have started to build the skillset I want to use for the rest of my diving career.
Personally, I would be very bad-off economically with the JJ as I spent for the machine, accessories and courses around 13k EURO while I use it mainly for dives nearby by home which could be done with normal air twinset (30m depth max as it is a lake), however I keep using my JJ so the 3 or 4 times per year when I have the opportunity to do very nice dives elsewhere I want to be trained and familiar with the machine (hoping that in few years with older children I will be able to travel more in my dream list of dives)
Also, for any diving geeks, the CCR mainainance and personalization is another level compared to OC
Yes that was exactly my rationale behind going for CCR. I’m not saving so much money, but big dives are more comfortable
Maybe another thing I’d like to add: I really enjoy preparing the JJ. It’s somewhat a meditative experience…being 30 minutes alone with the machine just focused on one thing. I really enjoy that and it made me an even more thorough OC diver.
Same. I come from OC and Surface Supplied diving, and I want to get an InnerSpace Megalodon rig and mate it up to the KM Mk48 Mod 1 BOV pod.
I'd love to know what your dil stretching factor came out to be after a year
I bought a used MEG ccr because of the helium price! As i do around 40-60 trimix dive per year, it doesn't make sense to do it in OC these days! Now here in canada some dive shop ask around 6-7$ per cu/ft for helium ....
Absolutely. Over here it used to be 0,07€ per liter which is around 2€ per cuft but within the last month the prices for heroin almost doubled. So I think we will be in your range, soon!
@@DoktorBENyou fill your tank with Heroin? That's new
For the deeper dives (>51m) you need an additional course so that should be added to your nice sheet. And those are exactly the dives you really start to benefit from using the JJ.
Depends on the agency and where you exactly start. But I can add a field for additional fixed costs, so everyone can just use own numbers for courses to take e.g.
p.s. the reference to the stretching factor is not correct for row 3-6
Thanks…I’ll have a look later
Great insight, thank you. I understand you do a cost calculation here, but it is not only about cost, right? Apart from the bare need to use CCR where OC is impractical, I guess for some it is a personal preference decision as well, so it was for me. At the end you need to decide if it's worth for you, lots of downs, but also lots of up's
Sure! Even for shallower dives, a CCR might make the dives just more enjoyable.
Also, you will need to go into bailout from time to time and therefore have to refill your bailout basically having oc gas costs. Ill have a look at the excel sheet and see if I can bring that in.
And in reality, you see people diving the JJ with 10/70 diluent at the lake in 10m of water. This does not only waste expensive diluent (which is also used to inflate your wing) and sorb on a dive that you could have done OC with a single tank, but it also comes with significant additional, avoidable risks. In shallow depth, you don't benefit from the CCR at all and with a hypoxic diluent, you need to carry an additional stage next to the already very heavy GUE configuration JJ to be able to make a 20m bailout ascend to the surface. This also destroys the purpose of the GUE configuration of the JJ, as you carry a long hose on huge diluent tanks but can't donate that to an OOG diver due to hypoxic gas. It is also against the mantality of GUE and DIR to only bring what you need.
I think one should keep in mind what a CCR was built for and use it accordingly. After training I would use it for trimix dives only, except for training dives for which you should use inexpensive NX diluent to be able to train bailout ascends etc. without too much costs. IMO for the shallow afterwork dive in the lake, the CCR and the 10/70 diluent should not be used.
Agree. However, this occurs very rarely (at least on the JJ). It’s a bit like you have to do gas sharing from time to time in OC. It’s hard to base your calculations on very unlikely incidents. Still you could calculate something like a “waste by bailout” factor. Looking forward to your solution
Definitely add an expense for bailout gas. Even if you don't have an emergency, it's always a good idea to practice a bailout asent from depth every now and then.
Also the 10% oxygen waste factor is rather low as you probably will use dill as inflation for wing, and during ascent you need to vent gas from both counterlungs and wing. Additionally when doing shallow deco stops you'll waste some oxygen doing flushes to bring ppo2 up.
Yeah that’s right. I now changed to 20%, but everyone can use a personal waste factor
Hey Ben, What pair of fins and mask do you recommend?
Scubapro Jetfins and Atomic Subframe
As a person who doesnt go more than 30m down on my double 12's (On nitrox 32) I dont do enough deep diving to warrent a CCR.... maybe if I won the lotto I would consider a CCR
Well…it’s not only about money but about fun, too. Still, the infest is high and just from a financial point of view, the CCR is most likely not making any sense of you only do shallow dives
Funny, I never paid more than 1000 euro for any of my rebreathers... I have some Inspirations, rEvo (999 euro), Ray, RG-UF, and recently I bought Hollis explorer for just 299 euro :D You just need to know, how to service them, and that's not a problem for any technically capable guy (or girl)...
Then you’re just lucky. Even the filthiest cat litter box is usually a couple of thousand bucks😄
Not too bad would be nice if there would be calculation with real Helium prices too. Just a difference for all dives in 2022 ~7600 too real 3560€ coming from for me very high oc price....
What about maintenance 1 regulator more and what does the JJ need in 10 years ?
I think maintenance of regs is the same. The JJ needs to be returned to the factory every 60 months (at least officially). Does anyone here have the actual prices for this?
@@DoktorBEN Nearly but it is one reg more for the O2 part 🙂
did you buy one ?
I'm a newly trained rebreather diver. The runtimes are absolutely amazing. Friends were doing tech practice drills and while they cranked through air, I used virtually nothing. Disclaimer: Cost wasn't a factor for me but education and its deep and deco potential. I do love diving it at all depths, the silence is unreal.
Yeah…thank you for sharing this. Same for me basically
@@DoktorBEN Bailout rigging video next plz :)
That’s the magic with the GUE configuration 😂😉
Does GUE require bov vs dsv? (Long live my shrimp)
It’s up to you. DSV and BOV are both fine! I own a shrimp, too.
I don't think I will be seriously considering a CCR until I start regularly conducting dives that require Trimix.
Yeah I’m that case it makes close to no sense, at least economically
@@DoktorBEN but on the other hand.... they are cool AF 🤣
Yes and there’s not only the economic side 😜
@@DoktorBEN gotta get my D12 setup and GUE Fundamentals first anyway, so CCR's are a ways off in my future in any case. Hoping to go the fundy in June here in Norway.
Very good! You’ll love it!
Would only add maintenance cost on there but nice analysis
Yeah you can at any time tweak the battery+maintenance a little higher
One thing to bear in mind is that you can get a perfectly good second hand JJ for about 4500 euros or even less. My unit is an old analogue one but it works just fine and I got it for 3000.
A second thing to bear in mind is that all the gubbins to build your GUE config frankenbreather is pretty expensive (really expensive if you go for the Nautec valves and manifold rather than the LOLA ones).
The GUE upgrade is around 1200 Euro.
Well…it’s hard to get a used one in good condition for 4500 in my experience. But you can get them for around 7000 to 8000 already in GUE config in a very good condition, sometimes including BOV.
@@DoktorBEN You just need to be patient and to keep an eye out for the second hand ones, they are out there. Like I say I got one for 3K, it needed new cells & O-rings, one new SPG and more recently a new HUD but it's absolutely fine now.
I tried it myself for over a year or even two. In the end I got a used one for 8500€. There have been some cheaper ones around. The analog version was sometimes available for around €3000-€5000. The DiveCAN was mostly only in that price range if it’s heavily used. And maybe I was just really unlucky, but it was not really possible for me to get a really good one for so low prices.
@@DoktorBEN I can attest to this. I went Hollis Prism2 due to training and service availability in my area, all in I think I saved around $1500-2000 all in after putting upgrades into my used unit over buying new. So there's the cost of training roughly plus some sofnolime and o2 sensors. :)
@@DoktorBEN You paid 8500 euro for a secondhand JJ? That's an interesting decision.
If anyone is considering a rebreather but is holding back because of the safety aspect, you’re not ready
It may depend on the rebreather, but after using the JJ for a while, I think it’s even safer than OC (if you use it correctly)
Rebreather diving is not about money it is about a life style
Absolutely!
I am a GUE CCR diver and will never come back to OC.....only for bail-out. Of course!! 😆
Apparently. So did it already save you money?
@@DoktorBEN Yes, I dive once a week minimum and I do some Tech weeks every year, so yes it is really a good choise. Plus, the JJ is a very good unit.
JJ is a good unit. Seems like a lot of GUE guys are hopping over to Fathom. Either way, CCR seems to be a safer unit in my opinion. You’re divi my with two full units; CCR and OC Bailout. If there is an issue, there’s almost unlimited amount of time (relatively) to fix the problem and get to safety.
Absolutely!
It's not about depth, it's about duration. It's about footprint. It's about waste. It's about flexibility. Sure, you can go deeper, longer, but that's a benefit that not many will be able to take advantage of. You could make your same argument about justifying drysuit vs. wetsuit. Just dive less and you don't need a dry suit right... It's nonsensical for anyone more serious about diving. If you're worried about the financial sensibility about diving, just don't dive. Also nonsensical.