REVEALED-DIY TURBO SECRET-EVERY CAM WORKS!
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
- DIY Junkyard HP=Turbo Boost plus cam, but do I need a turbo cam? Actually, every LS cam is a turbo cam, in fact EVERY cam for EVERY motor ever made is a turbo cam. They all work under boost. Plus A quickie life hack for determining your boosted power output-simple math!
Richard Holdner - Cutting ‘turbo cam’ sales in half since 2020 😂😂😂
Good video, good explanation, good info 👍👍👍
..and people in comments are still asking what cam to buy
I’m pretty sure the thumbs down came from cam vendors.
Aaaha, now that's a great one 😂👏
@@BlindBatG34 i wouldn't doubt it
@@Turbo_Todd My answer would be which ever one holds up to the abuse....In my situation the stock PI cams would be ok, if it wasn't weak in construction.
And I thought that stock 5.3 cam collecting dust on the shelf in my garage was worthless, turns out it’s a turbo cam, it’s now worth a lot of money. 😁👍🏻
Pat Musi said years ago about his nitrous engines. He just builds the meanest engine he can build....then adds nitrous.
I like Richard because he's not afraid to admit when he's wrong or doesn't know, but yet he provides quality content in an easy to understand format.
You just set the internet on fire!! Fantastic video!!!!
Do you ever sleep sir ? Lol
No, too many cams to test...Sacrifices will be made.
Ain't no way lol
I'VE BEEN LIED TO MY WHOLE LIFE! CALLING MY ATTORNEY
I wish I could love this video! I’ve been laughed at for telling people to leave their N/A cam in instead of swapping to a “stage 2 turbo cam”
My same thoughts go out to the "it needs backpressure" crowd
The "turbo cam" spiel has been going on for a LONG time and still does. I fell for it hook line and sinker. Still have a couple "turbo cams" kicking around.
@@superkillr the only reason I’m looking at a “turbo” cam is I want good low end power for street use and the btr stage 1 and 2 turbo cam have the valve events close to what I want. Where their N/a cam focuses more at top end power
The only thing this conversation leaves out of the equation is response. A normal aspirated cam and a turbo cam may make similar peak but power curve and off boost response in non drag racing situations such as street driving or road course racing can mean the difference between a quick car and a dog. At least this is my experience in the small displacement manual transmission world I play in.
any cam that adds low-speed torque will improve response
Love the content, I know you're refining your presentation still. I dig the non-greenscreen delivery of the technical data, but I don't think the little picture of you over the dyno graph adds anything, and I prefer to see the whole graph, especialty since your smiling face blocks out the top half of the measurement scale lol... Just my .02 Keep up the content. It's nice to see high-level technical discussion on here.
maybe throw it down at the bottom right where there's no numbers to overlap
@@Speedy2222 I like that idea too. It's nice to see the graph while it's being discussed but there is value to not being spoken to by a faceless chart.
I guess he should just move his "live" screen to the right a little bit and it would be perfect! 👍
A little transparency to fade his image a little could help
Really? That’s your complaint. Shut your pie hole and just take some fucking notes. The man talks about turbo Cams and you wanna critique his Video Editing. 🤦🏼♂️
I always thought “turbo” cams needed a wider LSA whereas as an NA cam would tend to be narrower. So the gist is, get your ideal power curve established first NA, then boost it! I do think a camshaft LSA narrow to wide dyno comparo would be cool (I know it’s been done but I haven’t seen it in this media)
Similar to what you said, I always just think of "turbo cams" as being marketed as more tame with the wider LSA for the people who want to use boost to make more power instead of rpm. To me, tighter LSA has always meant choppy idle, high rise open plenum intake, +3,000 stall converter, etc. Where turbo cams with the wider LSA always meant smooth idle, dual plane intake, ~2,000 rpm converter, etc. Just my perception and I think the cam companies follow suit.
I always figured, turbo cams (over stock) are just more efficient with boost making power, a turbo with a big nasty NA dragrace cam, isn't going to be as useable or effiecent, as a big turbo cam, but a turbo with stock cam in most cases is fine for street only vehicles, a mild cam do sound sweet though! And will gain power,
The wider LSA is more for the blower setups. As blower speed is fixed, you want to minimize overlap to minimize lost air flow.
With a turbo, more overlap generally means faster spool.
Less overlap yields more top end power.
Gale Banks said he was doing testing for a turbo car back in the 80s or eally 90s and said it was really slow off the line/ out of the hole.. so he changed the lobe sep from 118 to 110 and it took off like a rocket out of the hole.. I read the article a couple years back so that was the just of it..
@@Carl_Jr Thats a great was of putting it.
Unbelievable quality in your tech content Richard, thank you!!
Richard pissing off every cam manufacturer in one fell swoop! Lol keep up the great content sir!
i dont think so, he uses on he`s videos lot of great cams ... but yes he is saying any cam works
dragbikedemon not necessarily, cams still do increase power
Good to see this kind of video out there - it should keep a lot of people from throwing money away.
The whole advent of the "turbo cam" is from when high performance cams were primarily slightly toned down, long duration, big overlap race grinds developed for big N/A horsepower, had very narrow powerbands and had little to nothing for drivability or area under the curve.
Those old grinds and the fact that cars were carburated (carburetors rely on steady/smooth airflow at low rpm to properly meter fuel) meant that adding a longer intake tract like turbo ducting made engines even more lazy on the bottom which added to/created what people called turbo lag - stepping into the throttle got nothing for results up to the rpm the cam was designed to work in, then the boost would come in about the same time because the engine was now making exhaust flow and heat to spool up the turbo. Back then a stock cam was a much better "turbo cam", so the demand for "turbo cams" was born.
Early turbo cams were just slightly hotter versions of stock grinds which put low speed throttle response back into the power band.
Camshaft design knowledge has moved so far forward since that time.
There's still an advantage to using a camshaft designed specifically for turbocharged applications - but that should be one of, if not the last place to look for more power in a turbo application.
I’m just glad somebody finally said it besides me!! I’ve been screaming this for years, but I don’t have dyno data to prove it. I just know what I’ve built over the years.
Big fan of the picture in picture of the overlay with dyno as the background. Seeing someone talking is more engaging as a presentation and directs the audience to a person instead of just a voice over.
Separation of camshaft "types" as has always been shown to me is about very specific systems of power production per combustion cycle at a given or very specific rpm. The problem with telling people its a "type x" camshaft is reliant on so many variables that the overall fact of where and how that camshaft works is much more dependent on all the things around it. Saying this cam makes power from 3500-7500 and is designed for turbo applications can only be justified if the rest of the motor is also designed for 3500-7500 power production and that the rest of the vehicle is also designed for those numbers. The pressure wave per cycle is only a single measurement point by which the efficiency of a given constant (SAE perfect day AIR) can be calculated. The truth has always been that as the increase in Air Density rises the power output increases along the same linear path. Regardless of all other factors.
Love your approach to facts Richard. Keep up the great work. Also more 2v mod motor stuff would be nice.
AGREED!!!! I'm VERY interested in the 2v Modular! I have a 1999 Lincoln Towncar, that thing is just begging for more torque and hp...And a nice Teksid diet would help too.
I did an old school Ford 302 in a '90 Mustang LX about 15-16 years ago. It was an NA cam. My brother, Denisson, argued with me about this because we were using a Vortech T-trim supercharger. I had seen a build exactly like this, using the same blower and cam. It made 650 hp at the flywheel. We were at about the same boost as this 650 hp engine, 15-16 lbs. It worked great!!!!! I raced a worked Evo on a highway, in Mexico, and I had to pedal it until 3rd gear, then it started going sideways at the top of 3rd!!!! With sticky road racing tires!!! This cars suspension was set road race stiff. You could push down on the hood and the suspension would not compress. Table stiff. Going through the gears WOT, the front would lift up on the suspension like it had drag springs in it!!! My brother was very happy with the outcome. I was too. BTW, I would buy an armored car as a daily driver if I was you!!!! Thanks for being honest too.
Since boost is a measure of resistance to flow, engine "2" that is identical to engine "1" except for better flowing induction will match the maximum output of engine "1" using less boost, and will make more power with the same boost level.
Man you can spend a whole lot of money in school or wherever and not learn as much as what Rich is doing here. Great videos, tons to learn!! Thank you
I think you should test this, have 2 cams ground with same duration & lift with 4 degrees more lobe separation from 1 to the other.
This. Or run something like a circle track cam on a 106, a 110 street cam and a 114 turbo cam
Id love to see a test of cams 225/225 vs 224/226 vs 220/230 not those exact #'s but no split vs small split vs large split
@@Shawn_lsx likely the curve will kinda rotate, less low rpm for higher rpm tq shift. It helps scavaging at certain rpm, but will give up some at other rpm points. Combo dependant just like the rest.
That's what I kept shouting at the video love separation angle can matter with boost. I've also been told a variable cam timing can sometimes help with spoiling up a turbo but whenever I've gotten tunes with variable cam timing on my Ford the guy said that usually the manufacturer settings you just don't even want to mess with them they're so good
@@sock979 you can definitely beat the factory settings especially on a standard turbo cat vs high flowed vs big single
But without extensive experience on that exact motor and even exact combo, it's easier to do worse
I’m a motorcycle guy that went to school for it, and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate having THIS MUCH DATA at your fingertips. A motor is a motor, whether on a bike, in a car or a truck. It’s a big air pump. So thank you for making all this beautiful data available to us all. It’s a great learning tool.
Cool... So the 4.6 in my Vic already HAS a turbo cam! Now I just need a turbo....
if you really wanna talk fun do a PI head and cam swap and a aftermarket intake if you plan on going over 8-10 psi. Fun Fun Fun
Great video Richard! Oldschool, with carburetors, the general rule of thumb was to run cams with a wide LSA. Today with FI, less of a concern. As illustrated, boost multiplies the power output of a NA engine. I would love the see a future test of cams with LSA of 108 to 120deg. For me, which cam makes a turbo more efficient with respect to response and boost. If running a LSA of 108deg, can the timing of the fuel injectors be delayed to minimize unburned fuel being introduced into the exhaust.
My understanding of the differences with turbo cams was to improve how quickly the turbo spooled on the low end and improve efficiency by reducing the amount of fuel air mixture that was blown through during valve overlap. Totally agree on total output though. don't matter there.
Turbo cams are one of my biggest pet peeves. They are up there with the so called “custom ground” cams that everyone can order off a website.
Not going to trow anyone under the bus, but i measured one of those “ custom ground” cams from a big ls name and guess what. Specs were exactly the same as a comp cams. The only difference was the fancy laser engraving and the almost triple price tag. Do your research and be smart about it and put ur money on the right place.
I always compare the ls market to the ar-15 market for those who know what im talking about. A lot of hype and big price tags with very small returns if any at all as far as performance.
I fully agree and understand the proportional increase along the rev line.
Q. You indicate that @ 1 bar (14.7 psi), you’ll typically double power output, though one could argue that if all things are equal, other than exhaust back pressure, which can be impacted by the turbine housing A/R, wheel trim, downpipe, ect, the actual increase can vary significantly at the same 14.7 psi boost.
Cylinder filling efficiency,, air temps measured inside the cylinder before the compression stroke, exhaust side pumping losses, etc.
In general...Power production of a turbo engine is dynamically impacted by the exhaust side more than one might expect.
As he said, size the turbo correctly, then the math basically works.
Todd Allen
Sorry...but engineering data proves Not all boost is equal!
Example: compare power increase from 14.7 psi boost from a single turbo, then 14.7 psi boost from a twin turbo on the same motor
Or if we dramatically drop the inlte air temp-we get more than 100% gain at 14.7 Psi
if the turbos are sized correctly, the same thing happens
Richard Holdener
As I explained. Not only will various exhaust side elements produce a higher quality air charge.
Various exhaust side elements (read my previous comment) help to produce more power as well.
Thus, 14.7 boost does not automatically equate to doubling power.
Picking the cam is more about where you want the power band, then turbo to multiply it! Good info Richard
I now have zero worries about "specing" the cam for my 5.3 turbo build!
Thank you for taking the time to share what you have learned!👍👍👍
Great video !! Bottom line is, choose the right cam for your specific application NA, then if you decide to add boost, YOU WIN !!
Great info Ive noticed this in your dyno charts up to now, good info to get out there. If your turbo can only produce a max of 1000hp running too big of a cam is only gonna limit your bottom to mid range. So a turbo cam should basically be a sized for planned turbo output to maximize power under the curve. Nice!
Best informational engine video on UA-cam. Best CHANNEL I've found for this keep it going man!
I had Comp do me a custom “thumper” grind for my slant six that I ran NA through headers. Then I turbocharged it. Powerband came in at exactly the same rpm as NA. Go figure
HAHA! I just asked about that one in a Ford with a turbo, just for giggles, Thanks for your comment about it, however I still kinda wanna see him do it for fun.
@jason belyea do you have video of that thing? mainly na
oh yes looks like it
@@lobmin on my Instagram @jason_belyea
This is 100% the truth I did so much testing all the results were actually the same as what you're talking about what turbos do is magnify the horsepower your engines already putting out I argued with so many people when building motors for them that's what I do now i showed them on a Dyno took the time to pull the cam out and put a turbo cam back in made less power and still they didn't believe their eyes comments were I don't have the turbo up like i did with the na cam LOL people are going to be stuck on what they hear how they feel GOOD VIDEO!!!! 👍👍👍
On a dyno I believe everything he says.on the drag strip changing to the “optimum cam” to take advantage of gearing,weight, converter, and how fast it spools in the 60’ ,330’ and mph is a definite advantage
And also how it reacts at part throttle stuff during normal driving conditions.
Don’t matter you will set that up to whatever power curve your engine has! It all comes down to what your going to do with it.
Not everyone gets it right the first time. It’s A lot easier /cheaper to change the cam versus gears,converter, or weight
@@davidyoder3605 Especially with a typical grandpa car with the 4r70RW like I have, my Towncar could sure use another 125hp, more torque and a good diet, preferably while improving efficiency
This gives me some peace of mind. I've got stage 2 N/A cams in my 5.4 2V that I'm going to put a single turbo on. Ive been in a mental struggle on whether to change the cams out for turbo cams. If it was an all out, max effort build, then maybe I could justify it. But since it's just my daily driver, I think it will be just fine.
I ran those 2V cams on a 4.6L with a turbo-works great-little soft down low (na and boosted)
How I've always thought about it was....if I have "x" turbo that's capable of 1000hp, and sized right for the engine, it doesn't matter if I have the perfect turbo cam. The turbo flows enough air to make 1000hp so the only difference I would think you would see between the 2 is the pressure it takes to achieve the 1000hp. 1000hp is a 1000hp no matter what the cam is.
One cam.might have 1000 come.in at a difderent rpm but the boost might change
Me and my dad can’t wait for you to do the sloppy stage 2 build on a 4.8 or 6.0 or even both 😁
I wonder what he would recommend for us street/strip daily driver do it all guys, figure 3500lb car (or small truck), running a/c, ps ect. that would like low cost, decent mpg and run mid-low 11s. (with so-so 60ft) Like Matt says "goals". I'm thinking maybe 6.2/6L80 from a complete 07 copart escslade with a small/medium shot would get me there. Short tuning here in Ky has set up some 6l80's without the BCU and they should live under 550 whp, so I would target 550 at the wheel.
Thank you for starting you channel. You are enlightening the masses!
Glad I watched this before blowing up his DM's asking about turbo cams. 😆
I remember someone asking Kenny Duttweiler what was special about a turbo cam and he said nothing!
Kenny knows his stuff
Kenny duttweiler said this years back. He was totally correct
Yeah same here but I asked my Instructors Judson masnigill at Sam and he said just pick one and turn it up lol
I use to do this same kinda thing when I was much younger in the 90's. I was using my desktop dyno on my computer to see the effects from different cams when I was picking my engine combo... Been watching you guys since the 90's. Learned a lot.
Seeing these videos every morning makes me so happy
Idk why but you just turned a lightbulb on in my head! This makes so much sense! Thanks for sharing all this info!
Excellent video.
The reason that they market cams towards turbo, or sc or nitrous applications is because they design cams too make up for shortcomings in the power adder.
The LS9 cam you showed is an excellent example of this. Supercharged cars run out of steam and boost up top. GM designed that cam too make power up top because the eaton blower makes plenty of power down low and in the midrange.
Overlap spools the turbo faster but spins the turbo faster to make the same boost because part of the boost goes out the exhaust. The trick is to make a cam that spools fast enough but doesn't have excessive overlap. Lets say 2 cams with the same specs make the same peak hp in an engine n/a, 1 on 110 lobe separation the other on 114. The cam with 110 l/s will spool much faster but build more back pressure up top where as the 114 l/s will have less back pressure & pull to a higher rpm. That's the way i understand it.
i think the turbo cam deal has more to do with when the spool characteristic of the combo comes into play with gearing, stall, weight etc at the strip. I do agree with the message tho, boost is just a multiplier
One improvement on the how-much-power-will-boost-add question is to take the baseline brake power, divide by 0.85 to get the indicated power, and then subtract the baseline brake power from the indicated power to get friction. Then multiply your indicated power by the ratio of the new MAP to the old MAP to get the new indicated power. Then subtract friction power from new indicated power to get the new brake power. That 0.85 number was a good ballpark number for mechanical efficiency 35 years ago, but it might be higher nowadays with improvements to friction from better journal bearing design and roller cams. Don't get me wrong, I like your ballpark guide, but his method would yield a tighter prediction.
It is such a shame that we don’t have anyone like you working with vintage Fords like the FE. Some poor guy got his videos pulled for showing how to improve the oiling on a SBF. Some a hole claiming that it is a copyright violation. Why do we have to put up with that crap. I am certain his initials are BL. I so wish we could have someone like you working on Ford platform like the FE. I am not sure if my 394 FE will take 10-12 lbs of boost. I want to do it really bad. But the FE forum who banned me for sharing my 50 years of experience banned me for life saying I was disruptive. I was because I was so frustrated as to why I couldn’t share my own broken knuckle experience. You and Sloppy Garage have convinced me that I have been tilting at windmills. Why would I try to help people who really need it , when the people involved sanction you. A small Cabal wants the answer to be it’s too hard, just send it to me and I will charge you your childrens college tuition to indulge yourself with an overpriced piece of junk that barely makes 450 hp. You have to have a 4.25 stroke kit. BS! You also once they get their paws on it that well factory heads won’t do then the block won’t do… $35000 ? You can build a nice 500 hp 416 ci engine with stock parts and I was telling people how. I was misleading people… I got an email from a guy who did an NA 416. And made 515 ft lbs and 545 hp for nothing. He just found one of my old posts in the archives that they didn’t manage to scrub. I am proud he has been bracket racing it and all he does is service and with a Flat- tappet solid cam that I gave him with the lifter in order all broken in. I told him where to grind and where not to, 285/ 176, he did it himself in a half day and I even sent him the 3/8 Cobra Jet valves and springs, one piece retainers and matching keepers. No F’n charge. A Lunati cam SPJ 285 just like the one for the 351C Boss a solid step up. It almost cracked 550 , imagine a C 4V head. Yea 66 extra cubes but he said that FE lifts the left front. It did what HE wanted not They! Thank you Richard so much for your generous gift and spirit. I have so much FE stuff at 61 it’s really hard to put the genie back. I wish I was of the LS generation, and turbos. I hope that I can turbo my engine in my Car, but it I can’t I Will likely put a 6.0LS in it. It is a shame that things are that way. I thank you for tolerating me and all of my questions. This is truly uncharted territory. I worry about my narrow rod bearings. If a 5.0L or a 351W can be turbocharged, it seems likely an FE can? No one does it but I ve seen 6 and 8-71 blowers, on a weaker 427 block. A 4.08x 3.78 or even a 3.5 with good rods and pistons should do. Not crazy long but to use 410 forged 4032 rods. A 4.08 X 3.5 with 14.7 would be sweet.
I will
My rule of thumb is you need enough duration to carry power to redline without laying over, the more power the engine makes down low out of boost, the easier it will overcome the torque converter and spool the turbo sooner.
I just watched the first 30 seconds and thank you! Turbos do what they do. They make more power. Want more power from your turbo setup? Build a motor that's better na or make more boost. The more you can flow na the more you can flow turbo and make more power with less boost. Wanna make more power in general with any setup? Make a better air pump. That's what engines are. Giant air pumps. When your pump can flow more air you can add more fuel and make more power 👍WANNA CHANGE THE WAY YOUR ENGINE MAKES POWER? Change the cam. pretty simple at the heart but it gets complex when you're running the ragged edge and trying to eek out every drop of everything you can achieve within a given setup or set of rules etc...
Good info... I intentionally bought a cam for "sound" at idle or low rpm a was willing to sacrifice the hp loss. Thanks for all of your tests and info
Hugh McInnes and his 40 year old turbocharger book.
He says; 1: "Turbos are airflow equalizers, as far as breathing is concerned."
2: "Any engine can be turbocharged."
14.7psi is atmosoheric pressure@sea level.
14.7 to 1 is theoretical ideal A/F ratio. Mathematically,
1/3 of 14.7 is about 5psi. So 5psi of boost is about 30% increase in Hp. At sea level, 5psi boost and Intake pressure is actually 19.7psi
So on an otherwise stock engines reciprocating assembly, it will have to withstand a 30% increase in mechanical and thermodynamic stress.
Cranking up more than 8psi boost, without porting the head intake ports and/or using a higher lift longer duration cam and you just end up heating the air, with no more gain in power. Now, chew on fuel delivery, under boost.
I have Hughes book
That's what I learnt with boost especially turbos , modern turbos are super efficient. Don't worry about displacement or cam or heads . Just size the turbo for power you want especially the hot side and if you can't hit your desired goals just turn up the boost till you get there . The import guys figured that out a long time ago .
"Back in the day" I was told a Turbo cam is designed to minimize heat on the valves and generate a broad usable torque curve.
You don't want 1000hp going to the wheels in a aggressive fashion or things break and cars become uncontrollable or valves melting in real world situations.
Love your content by the way
Great way of explaining how camshafts relate to turbos and other forced injection.
Richard I love your channel.you have a Dyno results for everything I've ever owned, built, every engine, every combination, everything that's in my driveway currently, anything that I've ever thought about building in the future. Keep up the good work man I love it. I've basically binge-watched your channel all day today. Thanks again
It makes sense... If your running a NA engine on the top of Mt Everest, it's going to make WAY more power at sea level.. It would be like adding half a atmosphere, 7 psi... If you look at the industry that developed turbocharging, (aviation industry), they didn't make different cams for running turbos. They actually need "max power" during TAKE OFF, and the turbo just brings the power BACK that was lost due to the high altitude... or it allows a plane to safely fly higher... I was taught that "the cam just puts the power in different rpm ranges" it shifts everything accordingly up or down, as long as the other components agree...
On a naturally aspirated engine, exhaust pressure is equal to intake pressure. If turbo exhaust backpressure equals boostpressure, an NA cam IS a turbo cam. Only when the exhaust pressure exceeds boost pressure do you need to look at decreasing overlap...or increase the size of the turbine housing.
Great video Richard. 👍🏾👏🏾💪🏾Really thankful for the breakdown of what can work and it's not as complicated as some would make you think. 👌🏾👊🏾😎
Richard your absolutely correct about these cams. Really all your doing with a cam is moving power around when using various cams.
So glad you made this video! Buying a turbo kit soon and was debating on swapping out cams again. Saves me money
Something an old engine designer/piston manufacturer told me once: Think of an engine as an air pump. The more air you can push through it, the more power it will make. This was during a conversation we were having around the time the PSI blower became the must have in the alcohol ranks. Not a new talking point for me. Now there is the data to confirm what he always said.
I've always been a NA guy and engine builder. I always thought what you're saying should be the case but all of the noise in advertising and on the internet made me wonder if this assumption was correct. In my mind and what your empirical data shows is that, if you think of a NA engine in a sealed dyno room that can maintain constant atmospheric pressure and temp, as you pressurize (boost) the room, the power curve should increase proportional to the amount of atmosphere(s) (pressure) the room is increased. The only small caveat would be if frictional losses increase. I know the exact opposite happens as NA aircraft engines go up in altitude and lose atmospheric pressure and horsepower, there's lots of data on that too. Great video, thanks!
Thank you very much for providing this video and information. Im in the middle of building a 5.0 and wanted to get the car going NA and add boost down the road and didn't know if the AFM N41 cam would be ok with boost. This was so helpful. Now all i have to do is get thicker headgaskets to lower the compression from 10.5:1 and add a turbo!!!
This video was very useful to me. I had aspirations to torch my old 305 k10 Chevy just because it’s a fun experiment. There won’t be high expectations for a 160 NA engine but I always felt it would work. I’ve been told that it was a silly experiment to try to make 350 hp when a cam and heads would get me the same output; however, I have a 300 hp 305 and it isn’t a good combo for daily driving. The stock motor seems to be; especially with the addition of boost. By my calculations, the VE is so low, I suspect that I may really need to shove it in under pressure to hit my target but I believe it’s easily obtainable and it isn’t enough to damage the stock internals.
Back pressure is always the diminishing return. Great video thanks for explaining it to the masses.
Okay, one atmosphere is around 14.7 lbs per square inch. So if you double that. Thats 2 atmospheres. Which means you are forcing another atmosphere of air and fuel in an engine. =double the power or close to it. Doesnt matter what camshaft is in it, still going to double the power. Doesnt matter the engine either.
Had this exact discussion a couple of weeks ago with my son who is building his first LS 5.3 . Make a stout NA motor, then apply the boost, it's a winning combination every time.
Richard Holdner. The only problem I see with the tests you did on this episode is it shows how you make boost in 1:1. The reason people use certain cams for specific reasons is for low gear boost creation. What you should do a test on is what the boost curve during acceleration with the different cams. That’s where you’re going to get the difference. Overlap is gonna kill some of those cams until 1:1.
I just stopped looking for a cam. I like the one I have NA. Im adding twins and after this vid I am not changing it. Thank you.
This explains why the custom ground Comp Cams turbo cam (.513/.513 on a 115 LSA) for my 4.3L V6 Typhoon ran so well N/A. Had a nice flat torque curve. Running 14psi currently. Can't wait to get it tuned & start running it on the street.
Definitely your best video yet. Exactly what Kenny duttweiler has always said.
So awesome to see this as it’s what I’ve been learning, the turbo dictates the power
Now try the same tests on pump gas. You might have a tuning issue with a cam with a good amount of valve overlap (N/A cam), in particular at high revs. Your absolutely right about the power curve being the same though on any cam, but back pressure from the turbo will cause hot inert exhaust gases to flow backwards into the intake (due to overlap) and warm up your “cool” intake air and auto ignite at high revs. This can basically be stopped by running an alcohol fuel or race gas.
At least this it what I’ve experienced and researched...
The only difference I think would be cams with big overlap would potentially spool later on the street. But you can’t exactly see that on a loaded engine dyno. But big cams and big turbos make a big party.
Richard Holdener: The Original Junkyard Jesus.
Baby-Shark GTO
Nice GTO
@@M52x Thank you very much
@@M52x oh wait, you have one too! Nice
Baby-Shark GTO Yeah and it’s called lumina coupe here in saudi arabia and thanks man
He then turns water into cold Coors light.
Richard, To many variables, its hard to decipher if these statements are true, engines and boost levels need to be identical in size/components and do stage 1-4 Na cams vs stage1-4 turbo cams that way we can see if turbo cams make more power under boost.
its not hard to decipher if the statements are true, the cam that makes the most na power makes most boosted
@@richardholdener1727 i agree with the theory completely. i just think itd be easier to understand as a consumer with very controlled variables instead of a whole bunch very different combinations. I think itd be a better, more efficient way to prove your point.
I bought a 284hr cam for my 363 sbf build but only because I figured it was a good cam for boost, and it’s a fresh build. I hope it’s all a good combo for 1000hp some day.
The thing to get across(that you could have said in a few words) is dedicated turbo cams are optimizations not voodoo. Most of us LS guys have known this since 2001 or so when the available can grind was 224-228 .550 and guys were adding them to Camaros with a Vortec or Procharger and getting another 60-100 hp out of it over the stock LS1 cam.
To be honest I think when people design a "turbo cam" they come up with a combination in their head with a turbo and a cam and a displacement level that all match up well together and make nice long torque curves and they deem that cam a "turbo cam" and then because the internet caters to stupid people we have cam manufacturers selling "turbo cams". I never made much video about it but I've always said that a big turbo and a big cam go together pretty well on the appropriately sized engine. Much like a small turbo actually goes very well with a stock cam on the appropriately sized engine. The specifications are almost irrelevant because this in a vague way covers everything.
Example a:
"Torque monster" it's a stock lq4 engine with head studs put in it and some ring gap. We use t3 .63 a/r 52/54 twin turbos on it with internal wastegate. 10psi on 91 octane gets us a power curve that the city bus is jealous of and stock drivability is a win.
Example b:
Lq4 engine with studs, added ring gap, and twin t4 76mm Wuhan war whistles (gt45 clones)
232/242 .620 .620 111 LSA
Now we have an entirely different but also equally efficient 4 digit Dyno monster that's not gonna be nearly as fun in city driving conditions but will make a hell of a pass. Just an entirely different power curve brought on by basing the entire setup around the cam you chose to get the power curve that works best for you.
And the fact that some cams are listed as "cathedral port cams" or "rec port" cams honestly kinda just makes me sad. People really need to learn to understand the specs of what they're looking at. I guess with that being said we wouldn't have ever had to dumb them down to "stages" in the first place. Love your videos Man amazing content
Great video displaying common physics.
HP = AP X CID X CR X VE X RPM /5250 / 150.8
Add boost (guage) to 14.7 (standard corrected Atmoshperic Pressure) and see what happens.
Great vid!
I didn't include the patented Holdener Power/Boost Formula. Turbo Hp=Na Hp x Boost/14.7 +1
@@richardholdener1727 lol! I didn't want to plagiarize your work so I posted the "un-holdenized" formula!
Great work you're doing!
Education is sadly lacking in the halls of horsepower these days....
I believe "turbo cams" are a marketing gimmick manufacturers use as an excuse to expand their product line. Same as the "rectangle port cams". A cam should be chosen based on desired engine behavior considering compression, displacement, intake, and exhaust design.
There are cams that are designed with the characteristic of a turbo in mind
Thanks once again Richard. Once the weather breaks here in the Northeast I will be waking up the SBF and giving it a good thrashing!
I'm using SS2, works great both for n/a and boost! Very interesting test tho, great to see so much info! 👍 BTW it's 20k on your channel already ✊
I would think a turbo cam is a cam with lots of low end torque for quick spool up. After that just crank up the boost for more power.
I was under the impression that "turbo cams" were for reliability and driveability.
You certainly give confidence to those considering FI on their applications, but for those of us still using the LS engine that came with our vehicles, I have heard many horror stories of LS1s not surviving passed 550rwhp and LS2s failing once they reach 650rwhp.
Anyone that wants to FI their NA engines needs to (at the minimum) properly gap the piston rings. But that involves fully disassembling the engine which is typically beyond the majority DIY capabilities.
I agree that this information is the best by far I have ever seen anywhere!I have studied hot hod magizines since I was 13 and a lot of these builds and dyno runs discredit almost all that I believed to be true from the past.Like wide LSA and low duration for turbos and short intake is ok for boost, I’m shocked at what these little 5.3s can do Na and Boosted!!! Thank you Richard!!!!Please ignore the ignorant comments and questions from the uneducated comment Ters🥴
Great content. I usually multiply by 3 because I like to party!!! 😆
We need a party only video series. Only invited with 4 bar + map card in your pocket
@@Turbo_Todd Yes sir. You only live once, Moon tune on deck!
It makes perfect sense that if you double the atmospheric pressure and adjust the engine to run properly under that pressure "curve", that it would make double the horse power and torque at double the atmospheric pressure.
people in 2020 still think that turbo just pump air in the engine, the truth is that turbo increase the air density (and so the pressure), its just like run a engine on top of the pikes peak and another on the sea leavel, and who make more power on pp, also make more power on sl, great video as always
I want to see a 5.7 or 6.0 with an MS4 110 LSA NA and turbo. That’s the most extreme cam I’ve used. It idled at 1,200 rpm, backfired wheezed stuttered and coughed until + 3k rpm, then came on like a turbo and propelled my home built M6 LS1 Z28 faster than a stock C6Z. I had PRC 227’s, a 4” lunati crank and H-beam rods topped with wiesco pistons and an 11.5:1 CR. ARP studded top to bottom. She was a thing of beauty 😥. Lost my job and had to sell her.
Everything he said has been my experience as well. The only time you need to be a little carful is if you have a junk turbo that makes a ton of back pressure and a huge cam you can run into a lot of reversion and get a lot of dead in the cylinder. Which won’t hurt the power as much just becoming dangerous for the engine (lifting heads and such). And with that said, it’s a turbo problem not a cam problem. So if you have a junk turbo and are set on running it, I would lean more towards and smaller cam that will run in the same power curve as the turbo.
I guess you guys mostly do drag racing but I find that with a turbo cam (with large lobe separation) its a huge difference when you use the engine for drifting. Two cams with similiar specs where one is "turbo" the turbo cam will come on boost smoother, come on boost at less throttle, step on boost earlier as it feels like it can build its pressure instead of just coming on the cam and then spool the turbo as a NA cam turbo engine does. They also seem to pull longer when we pass max power (in drifting we want to have a large span of power to spin the tire fast, once spun you do not need top end power)
I came to view this video with hopes of a graph with the same engine and boost but with different cams
You didn't change about LS to change the belt all turbo applications great explanation thank you !!good job!!!
You did not change the way we think about LS change the way we think about all Turbo applications great job !!! Keep up the good work!
Eye opening, thanks. I'm going to hoist up a reply that I wrote below as a sanity check. Does anyone out there want o agree or disagree with this theory?
Everyone on the internet has been saying for years that turbo cams are made with less overlap (or "more LSA" which is related, but misleading) so that exhaust backpressure doesn't compromise cylinder filling. And I believed it. But after watching this video, I suspect that...
"Turbo" cams are really just tailored for good NA power WITHOUT GIVING UP a smooth idle and good low-speed driveability. Turbo cams are NOT optimized for power, because if you want more power you can get it by adding boost.
When you optimize a cam for power, you add overlap, which compromises idle quality (chop / lope) and low-speed drivability (surging). So "turbo" cams don't make those compromises. So they make less power NA... but again that's OK because with turbo setups, peak power is generally limited by the turbocharger anyway - not by the cam.
Great video Richard. I've been saying the same thing for decades....as well as adding compression. How much cylinder pressure can the rods and main caps safely handle?
Happy n/a engines make happy boosted engines!
Too an extent, granted nowadays you can run a little more compression than people use to. But still running a huge amount of compressing let's say like 11ish:1 will help with power production but there is a point where the cylinder pressure is too much and your going to make more power being able to turn the boost up more than the extra compression is going to help. Plus the fact of the kind of fuel needed to run a super high compression engine and then adding some Japanese hot sauce to the mix.
@@torqueandbeanssauce I've been told by the "tribe" here that 9:1 gives the best throttle response and works with boost, and that is what they now target.
Great video as always! Can't wait to see a sloppy stage 2 vs the world on a stock 5.3 wth springs.
The correct way of stating what you said would be that you can run an incorrect cam to get on the road, but it will perform better with the correct cam in it. Don’t say they are all turbo cams just because they will work ok with a turbo because that is a straight up lie. A turbo cam is optimized for a turbo. It is designed to deal with back pressure from the turbo, as well as to spool the turbo better. An engine dyno doesn’t show drivability. It doesn’t show how hard it is to get the wrong cam to try to build boost against the stall converter. I’ve seen people who thought like you and ended up spraying a 200 shot to spool a turbo that was a lot smaller than I was running with no issues. You need to start using a wheel dyno and doing drivability tests rather than just showing crank dyno numbers. Any performance enthusiast knows that dyno numbers don’t mean much when your nitrous cam won’t spool the turbo enough to bring a 5000rpm stall converter up to 3000 rpm. Start trying these engine in a vehicle and you will understand how useless an engine dyno really is...
21.2K !!! You're growing brother !!! I have like a bazillion questions LOL...
You always say to build the engine the best you can NA first, then add boost...
But doesn't piston to valve clearance, springs, compression ect. have to be taken back or undone a little to keep things in the safe zone? Also, with today's modern oils and additives, is it safe to go bigger than usual with a flat tappet system on older engines?
The only thing that you listed that matters and this is JUST A LITTLE is springs. Now when your valves are closing they are sounded by more dence gas(s) and so will be slower to close and the boost pressure will be pushing on the back of your intake valves. The compression only dictates what new minimum octane you need and how much ignition timing you can run. As Richard is trying to explain is its not as complicated as a lot of people make it out to be.
I did similar tests and the only thing you get out of a turbo cam is less torque off the line and a lot of upper speed and power for the most part Richard's 100% true
Thank you I'm glad you brought this fact up.i have been trying to tell all these rocket scientist friends of mine for years about the same thing.it the boost pressure not exactly the cam.they don't understand you can double the HP by boost pressure but when they do change something they go to the extreme and waste money trying to get more out than what's needed.or what they can live with.most of the time it's the water cooler talk that get a blown up engine or don't know how to fix the expensive mess they have and end up seeing it for cheap to another guy who need only a few parts to make a great engine come alive on the cheap.peace