Linkin Park - "Numb" live at Rio+Social 2012

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  • Опубліковано 30 січ 2025

КОМЕНТАРІ • 1,6 тис.

  • @bhaveshpurohit4935
    @bhaveshpurohit4935 7 років тому +823

    Rest in Peace, hero. A true legend. I'll never feel the same while listening to this song.

    • @emofound
      @emofound 7 років тому +9

      demn feels bro...

    • @solace7939
      @solace7939 7 років тому +3

      It's like each of his songs have entirely different meanings now... If you could understand... :'(

    • @krsol439
      @krsol439 6 років тому +3

      SmaLy
      But Chester was really great...... his vocals were really great..........
      RIP CHESTER.......
      THANKS FOR EVERYTHING......

    • @djchester3314
      @djchester3314 4 роки тому

      🇮🇳🙏❤

    • @ddky2691
      @ddky2691 4 роки тому

      Rest in peace to the great band too

  • @josephsaladi4001
    @josephsaladi4001 8 років тому +1920

    The only band who performs so accurate to the studio version!

    • @ss19891104
      @ss19891104 8 років тому +24

      truuuuue truuuuue truuuue

    • @ftvideos7663
      @ftvideos7663 8 років тому +14

      what about coldplay broh..................

    • @ss19891104
      @ss19891104 8 років тому +13

      True, not gonna lie ..I'm just not that into coldplay, they r good live tho

    • @badfriendd
      @badfriendd 8 років тому +15

      Muse is closer though.

    • @ss19891104
      @ss19891104 8 років тому +2

      To what

  • @coreliandude76
    @coreliandude76 7 років тому +230

    I am watching this with tears in my eyes... Chester and Linkin Park marked the best years of my life.

  • @dragonche7
    @dragonche7 7 років тому +378

    What an immortal Voice.. R.I.P. Chester...

  • @Pivotwrath
    @Pivotwrath 8 років тому +238

    i literally couldn't stop smiling, holy shit i had no idea he was this good live, props to the lad

    • @paonamtolstoy9140
      @paonamtolstoy9140 7 років тому +9

      Judefekter Reborn check out the numb Live at texas

    • @ryancassidy1646
      @ryancassidy1646 7 років тому +25

      Chester was a gift from the gods
      Who was taken too early

  • @dorknate
    @dorknate 9 років тому +684

    Chester has some impressive vibrato that isn't too much, but just perfect.

    • @vibodhj349
      @vibodhj349 7 років тому +11

      After years of practice, I am getting the vibrato in my gut.

    • @annymousam7177
      @annymousam7177 7 років тому

      Nate Major rip

    • @ctole5630
      @ctole5630 4 роки тому +2

      And it was mostly uneven. Just made it better

    • @BrianPikinMercado
      @BrianPikinMercado 4 роки тому +2

      He didnt use vibrato

    • @nathandrums0
      @nathandrums0 3 роки тому +9

      @@BrianPikinMercado he literally uses it at 1:35 lol

  • @KrOmEiFiCaTiOn
    @KrOmEiFiCaTiOn 12 років тому +36

    This is possibly the best performance of Numb I have ever seen from them live. Chester didn't mess up where he has frequently in the past, at all! They are all so talented, and I'm very happy to see that time has been treating them well.

  • @agriel9102
    @agriel9102 9 років тому +930

    9 years after original, its so good

  • @average_joe3325
    @average_joe3325 Рік тому +11

    I love you bro, so many lives saved thanks to you.

  • @mariahdoesthelaundry5636
    @mariahdoesthelaundry5636 11 років тому +270

    Chester sounds amazing when he has time to let his voice rest.

    • @Tyler6244
      @Tyler6244 11 років тому +4

      Um Twilight.... I don't wanna sound rude but um.... did you kick yourself through your face entirely? I hope I'm not being rude in anyway Twilight.

    • @malomkarom
      @malomkarom 10 років тому

      Agreed.

    • @explainersarath3341
      @explainersarath3341 3 роки тому +3

      He gone for rest😞🌹

  • @Ghost19_
    @Ghost19_ 4 роки тому +13

    I legit suddenly missed him. I can't believe none of us will be able to hear his genuine voice and singing anymore.

  • @Freeddiu
    @Freeddiu 10 років тому +954

    I dont think people know how hard it is for a man to sing like chester does in many of their songs. I'm a man with a average deep voice. I dont sound like mickey mouse neither james earl jones.
    Me and some friends spend time in a studio, writing lyrics and composing music. When I sing this song, I get so out of breath because you really have to use your whole body to sing that loud, that strong, in that high of a pitch.
    In a studio you can get around that by singing one sentence at a time and just cut it all together, but live, its all about you breathing correctly and have the fuckin power to sing all those hard, high notes.
    Give him some credit instead of fuckin hatin, hes doing something you will never do.

    • @jeffreymanalastas4861
      @jeffreymanalastas4861 10 років тому +61

      Absolutely right! This is extraordinary voice.

    • @graysongrzybowski943
      @graysongrzybowski943 9 років тому +1

      Schaps and he smokesit is hard to sing because he makes his diaphragm oscillate which is hard but it seems like chicks make it look so easy

    • @NihongoDaisuke
      @NihongoDaisuke 9 років тому +1

      +Schaps damn! nailed it bro.

    • @sachink1666
      @sachink1666 7 років тому +5

      He had an amazing voice....... #R.I.PChester

    • @DrRhyhm
      @DrRhyhm 7 років тому

      Schaps there's a thing called transposing, im a baritone the band goes down a fifth viola much better perfornance

  • @marshmellow8094
    @marshmellow8094 7 років тому +15

    "Sing like an angel, scream like a demon" really fits Chester so much. I miss you so much Chester. Rest in Peace. Love from Malaysia

  • @debapriyasen9019
    @debapriyasen9019 8 років тому +189

    Best band for a reason :) Love linkin park !!!!!!!

  • @nayellyesmeralda21
    @nayellyesmeralda21 9 років тому +164

    OMG, is very amazing, Chester's voice is beautiful 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

    • @Alejandro-wc5qd
      @Alejandro-wc5qd 8 років тому +19

      I've noticed you in like every linkin park video you are a true fan...... lp soldiers for life

    • @h2oghost882
      @h2oghost882 7 років тому +5

      Now LP will be destroied and they will only stay as a memory :'(

    • @Daniel-xd6vb
      @Daniel-xd6vb 6 років тому

      Renátó Nagy look at time added comment

  • @vxnityk
    @vxnityk 11 років тому +69

    Favorite rock band ever!!

  • @laurab9660
    @laurab9660 7 років тому +80

    WOW Chester was amazing on stage and singing the songs live... it's a shame that I didn't saw Linkin Park live on stage once in my lifetime with Chester... RIP Chester I'll miss you and your amazing voice.😢😢😭🙁

    • @khwundaw9521
      @khwundaw9521 4 роки тому +1

      Iarmsorry😁🐷🐺🐅🦓🐫

    • @khwundaw9521
      @khwundaw9521 4 роки тому +1

      Iloveyou🤣😃🥰🤩🤑🤯🤯😬🤬😱😡🥳🤢

  • @kroywenn5306
    @kroywenn5306 7 років тому +49

    I don't know what kind of music is the people of today listening to...but This is called true music....
    Rest In Peace Chester...

    • @DIOSTRUCT
      @DIOSTRUCT 4 місяці тому

      rest in peace legend

  • @soniareyes9417
    @soniareyes9417 3 роки тому +15

    The only band and vocalist I've been a huge fan of ever since they were introduced

  • @263malice
    @263malice 9 років тому +2728

    Chester sounds exactly like Chester.

    • @vikramduttagupta9735
      @vikramduttagupta9735 9 років тому +27

      +kkboxer20 No shit

    • @joshparry3057
      @joshparry3057 9 років тому +59

      +kkboxer20 Yes shitm most singers sound different live

    • @vikramduttagupta9735
      @vikramduttagupta9735 9 років тому +25

      I found the full setlist of this show
      Setlist: Notes:
      01. What I've Done Album Transition Intro
      02. Lies Greed Misery
      03. Waiting For The End
      04. Numb
      05. Burn It Down
      06. New Divide
      Show Notes:
      - 'Waiting For The End' was played without an intro or an outro for the only time in 2012. The new 2012 intro was played the day prior and both the intro and outro were played the day after at the first full 2012 show.
      Other Notes:
      - Six songs from Third Encore were shown on a projector at the Rio+Social event in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil on June 19, 2012. Before that date, this performance was unknown. The projector at the event that showed the LP performance to attendees was filmed and webcasted, resulting in a very bad quality webcast. Talking from attendees at the event is audible in the webcast.
      - The stage design at Third Encore was set up for the next day's LP Underground / Music For Relief (Power The World) show in West Hollywood. It is unknown whether this is the exact order or not of the songs performed, although it is likely this is not the order they were performed in since the band was rehearsing for their first full 2012 show the next day. It is likely these six songs were taken from a full rehearsal setlist that day.
      - The audio was not professionally mixed before being shown, resulting in guitars being louder than normal, etc. Editing was done to the video to include track titles at the start of each song.
      - Mike and Phoenix joined the Rio+Social event via webcast before the Linkin Park performance was shown.

    • @sehnsuchtseele9803
      @sehnsuchtseele9803 9 років тому +1

      +Linyoshi Belle Woah! are you sure???

    • @sehnsuchtseele9803
      @sehnsuchtseele9803 8 років тому

      Jane Kalinina LP Soldier Ivka Wesley

  • @gregcarl3872
    @gregcarl3872 6 років тому +9

    Without doubt one of Linkin Park 's most beloved songs.

  • @garywest9353
    @garywest9353 2 роки тому +9

    Best version of this song by far

  • @susannehiddleston5821
    @susannehiddleston5821 3 роки тому +16

    Chester’s voice it’s what heaven sounds like

  • @kerem8190
    @kerem8190 15 днів тому +5

    2:51 what a voice, miss you damn much 😢❤

  • @InuRanmaLP
    @InuRanmaLP 12 років тому +20

    This version is probably the best of the live performances, I think it is even better than the Live in Texas version! Chester just did it best here :)

  • @andrewbernal3092
    @andrewbernal3092 11 років тому +70

    How good does Chester Sound (:! LP forever!!!

  • @ngocminhnguyen6212
    @ngocminhnguyen6212 7 років тому +83

    Chester's scream ... we gonna miss that 💔

  • @uckyou30
    @uckyou30 2 роки тому +5

    The best Linkin Park cover is a Linkin Park Linkin Park cover.

  • @oasisjung0909
    @oasisjung0909 10 років тому +118

    Perfect live.

  • @casildasoriamedina2414
    @casildasoriamedina2414 2 роки тому +23

    Em vivo, a capella, em piano; cualquier forma de cantarla es muy satisfactorio escuchar a Chester❤️🥺

  • @Omelhorcanal-e9f
    @Omelhorcanal-e9f 2 роки тому +85

    Numb é das canções mais difícil de cantar ! Não é para qualquer um!
    Tem bem pouco tempo de respirar
    Realmente Chester é uma lenda!!!

  • @IceCloudOFCIA
    @IceCloudOFCIA 5 місяців тому +3

    *"We lost the battle, but not the war"* *Difficult times are part of it, guys! They are pillars for us to rise and evolve.Never give up warriors, everything will work out* 🥶💀

  • @suvituulikkivahanen2600
    @suvituulikkivahanen2600 3 роки тому +8

    Chester Happy 45th birthday to heaven. You'll never be forgotten💗

  • @zedston180
    @zedston180 8 років тому +6

    Honestly. Just the best band. Can't get enough of their performances

  • @krsol439
    @krsol439 6 років тому +8

    RIP CHESTER.......
    YOUR VOICE IS AMAZING........
    YOU WILL BE ALWAYS IN OUR HEART................
    THANKS FOR EVERYTHING.

  • @FlavioErcoli
    @FlavioErcoli 8 днів тому +2

    Quanto manchi ❤

  • @sofiagrey7073
    @sofiagrey7073 3 роки тому +7

    Just one perfect band...no one makes better vocals like Chester did❤️i just love him

  • @prashantshrestha5265
    @prashantshrestha5265 7 років тому +16

    You'll live in our hearts. Your voice will be immortal Legend.

  • @wizyshane39
    @wizyshane39 4 місяці тому +2

    Numb + somewhere i belong really hits me. For me it's about figuring my life..

  • @chafekar1
    @chafekar1 3 роки тому +19

    Please come back Chester.😟😞

  • @imadie2731
    @imadie2731 3 місяці тому +2

    We missed the old Linkin Park, Rest in Peace Chester❤️🥀

  • @videogamemogul6036
    @videogamemogul6036 12 років тому +5

    Chester has a blend of beautiful soft voice and a raw real voice. Thats why linkin park is the best band ever!

  • @Joel-zw5lc
    @Joel-zw5lc Рік тому +554

    2024 anyone?

  • @lucasteixeira8704
    @lucasteixeira8704 2 роки тому +18

    Uma das melhores músicas de todos os tempos!

  • @SabineBrückner-b1m
    @SabineBrückner-b1m 4 місяці тому +2

    Du wirst immer bei uns sein 😭😭 Ruhe in Frieden, Chester 😭😭😭

  • @LordADNsVlog
    @LordADNsVlog 8 років тому +43

    I want to cry!!! This is so amazing!! T.T :D

  • @yealaldo
    @yealaldo 7 років тому +1

    This is the best version of numb i have ever listened. At the end the scream and the cry of Chester just hit so hard that i feel like crying

  • @ss19891104
    @ss19891104 8 років тому +142

    Damn Chester was on point in this

  • @christineadjei9143
    @christineadjei9143 3 місяці тому +4

    Here in 2024 still missing Chester 😭😭❤️❤️❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥💯💯 so glad I can still se these, blessings

  • @chiaram3074
    @chiaram3074 8 років тому +640

    no difference between live and record

    • @roymurillo7926
      @roymurillo7926 8 років тому +13

      that's true..

    • @AdityaChattopadhyay1
      @AdityaChattopadhyay1 7 років тому +6

      Chiara M that's because the studio one is the live one.

    • @mohammadhafizuddin2039
      @mohammadhafizuddin2039 7 років тому +51

      live is better than studio

    • @robertserban2008
      @robertserban2008 7 років тому +7

      He is not singing the refr. in a hoarse/scrapy voice at all.. only the first 2 words ( I've).. Dont get me wrong tho. he was truly amazing on the stage too!

    • @soumikkarmakar553
      @soumikkarmakar553 7 років тому +4

      yep he isn't screaming...BUT HE IS INCREDIBLE...RIP.....LV U CHESTER..

  • @ЕленаШеленкова-щ1ь
    @ЕленаШеленкова-щ1ь 5 років тому +14

    Спасибо,тебе,Честер Беннингтон,что ты был. Ты оставил в наших сердцах неизгладимое впечатление.

  • @fahmyrahim5627
    @fahmyrahim5627 5 років тому +9

    I like the way chester shouts - "I've !!!!!" become so numb ....

  • @buzzertone
    @buzzertone 3 роки тому +1

    Rest in peace brother. Your voice, your songs, this band, it is heavenly. Chester you are phenomenal.

  • @nayellyesmeralda21
    @nayellyesmeralda21 9 років тому +43

    I'm cry right now with this song 😢

  • @fridz66
    @fridz66 6 років тому +2

    This performance was so on-point in all aspect of the song. As expected of Linkin Park

  • @DatWut
    @DatWut 10 років тому +5

    While watching the video and seeing Dave move in the background while Chester sang his bridge ("And I know, I may end up" etc.), I began to wonder what everyone of the Linkin Park-crew thinks while playing individual songs, or while hearing Chester sing some parts.
    I have to say, this one sounds really nice.

  • @hitcherdoespacks2361
    @hitcherdoespacks2361 8 років тому +21

    Anyone else notice how he always closes his eyes in Numb, including music video? just an observation

    • @GuTsMattt
      @GuTsMattt 6 років тому +1

      Hitcher chester had always chose to perform live music with his eyes closed for a good portion of the songs it was just his singing style is all :)

  • @root8able
    @root8able 10 років тому +124

    Chester is pretty amazing live

  • @hugoyu2398
    @hugoyu2398 Рік тому +1

    One of the best Numb Live versions ever! Fantastic! 🤘

  • @danni_laurens
    @danni_laurens 8 років тому +10

    Linkin park r freakin awesome. my favorite song ever by then. They r so good live cx

  • @WJJ1961
    @WJJ1961 5 років тому +1

    Concentrating more and more on Chester now there is nothing new coming, I am stunned by the brilliance of his voice!

  • @DuardaCarla
    @DuardaCarla 3 місяці тому +1

    😢😢 meu Deus, foi o melhor vídeo q vi até agora dessa música, perfeito

  • @fahmyrahim5627
    @fahmyrahim5627 5 років тому +3

    The "Legend" Chester !!!! will always be chester .... many vocalists can growl quite similar to him .... it's just that Chester has got his own swag and singing style .... there is only 1 chester and no one can replace him ..... RIP .... :(

  • @Adityasinghmail
    @Adityasinghmail 11 років тому +45

    Chester changed his singing technique... He now uses more of a mixed voice.. listen to the break here at 0:55 to 0:56. Its actually the right technique

    • @edoardopetasecca9180
      @edoardopetasecca9180 11 років тому +1

      Is much more like the song recorded in the studio, but if I wanted to find a nit, if I wanted to go to a concert I do not want to hear the songs as they are to the recordings, but with some changes or additions and ... damn. LPs are ..

    • @ajgamingphofficial1500
      @ajgamingphofficial1500 4 роки тому

      He didnt.

    • @ajgamingphofficial1500
      @ajgamingphofficial1500 4 роки тому

      If he used mixed
      At F4 and G4
      It wouldn't sound like that.

  • @sarahdancer7426
    @sarahdancer7426 10 років тому +11

    omfg love this band

  • @irislin1155
    @irislin1155 4 місяці тому +4

    "This" is my favourite linkin park~~❤

  • @martinfarias1805
    @martinfarias1805 4 роки тому +4

    Como se extraña esa voz inigualable ( con esencia y estilo propio ). Deseo que estés realmente bien y descansando Chester ! Se te extraña. Aguante Linkin Park !!

  • @maya-zt7uc
    @maya-zt7uc 7 років тому +2

    I'm here after I heard what happened, and I know this music is so special, so important, thank you Chester. thank you for giving us everything you had, I'm sorry this world failed you

  • @thegreenmileable
    @thegreenmileable 10 років тому +23

    Best part: "Cant you see that you`re smothering me"

  • @tatansugianto1938
    @tatansugianto1938 7 років тому +2

    Your voice never die.

  • @gabrielathfurimmer
    @gabrielathfurimmer 12 років тому +9

    Esta es la MEJOR performance de Numb.
    Esta es la MEJOR VOZ: en vivo. en estudio. siempre.
    Esta es la MEJOR BANDA DE TODOS LOS TIEMPOS.
    Linkin Park, GRACIAS!

  • @Rusli1659LPSoldier
    @Rusli1659LPSoldier 3 роки тому +7

    did anyone notice that Chester closed his eyes in entire song? just like the music video because the band is in the church (Prague, Czech republic).

  • @garywest1725
    @garywest1725 2 роки тому +4

    I love this version of this song it totally rocks big time for sure people

  • @abidal4979
    @abidal4979 3 роки тому +24

    Lyrics :
    I'm tired of being what you want me to be
    Feeling so faithless, lost under the surface
    Don't know what you're expecting of me
    Put under the pressure of walking in your shoes
    Every step that I take is another mistake to you
    (Caught in the undertow, just caught in the undertow)
    I've become so numb
    I can't feel you there
    Become so tired
    So much more aware
    I'm becoming this
    All I want to do
    Is be more like me
    And be less like you
    Can't you see that you're smothering me
    Holding too tightly, afraid to lose control?
    'Cause everything that you thought I would be
    Has fallen apart right in front of you
    Every step that I take is another mistake to you
    (Caught in the undertow, just caught in the undertow)
    And every second I waste is more than I can take
    I've become so numb
    I can't feel you there
    Become so tired
    So much more aware
    I'm becoming this
    All I want to do
    Is be more like me
    And be less like you
    And I know
    I may end up failing too
    But I know
    You were just like me with someone disappointed in you
    I've become so numb
    I can't feel you there
    Become so tired
    So much more aware
    I'm becoming this
    All I want to do
    Is be more like me
    And be less like you
    I've become so numb
    I can't feel you there
    (I'm tired of being what you want me to be)
    I've become so numb
    I can't feel you there
    (I'm tired of being what you want me to be)

  • @GreenFabre
    @GreenFabre 4 місяці тому +3

    I just have to come back to and listen to this one song at 2024

  • @GaryWest-rv1wd
    @GaryWest-rv1wd Рік тому +1

    One of my favorite songs and one of my favorite bands

  • @imfionn
    @imfionn 7 років тому +12

    the more i look at him or heard him sing i just feel like "what if his death could be prevented? what if all he needs is a long hug?" and i feel so bad and i know he's gone but i can't accept that you know

    • @Annalovesanime25
      @Annalovesanime25 7 років тому

      Same

    • @GuTsMattt
      @GuTsMattt 4 роки тому

      Unfortunately even the strongest antidepressant medications and cognitive behavioral therapy wasn’t enough for him. Sometimes it’s like that, Chester dealt with a ton of issues from his past that he couldn’t move on from. He sung about his problems as an ongoing thing for 2 decades. But in his sacrifice his family can live a comfortable life and he also touched the hearts of millions, perhaps that was his goal in the long term.

  • @elaine8823C
    @elaine8823C 3 роки тому +1

    Just Brilliant.....Love LP Best Band Ever & Chester Was Great Has Always........ (Forever Missed Chester ❤)

  • @mstripling86
    @mstripling86 4 роки тому +3

    this just shows how talented and great of a singer chester was, he sounded the exact same live as he did in studio - which trust me, is almost impossible. most of us sound like shit live without the studio effects covering up our mistakes. you would almost think he's lip synching with how well he performs live.

  • @johnconstantine3764
    @johnconstantine3764 4 роки тому +2

    2021 🖤❤️🖤 Rest in Peace Chester 🖤

  • @gianpierotrama9074
    @gianpierotrama9074 Рік тому +3

    2:04 you can feel his pain. R.I.P legend, no one can sing like you.

  • @solangenunes5578
    @solangenunes5578 3 роки тому +5

    Nossa senhora do rock! Isso é maravilhoso ❣️❣️

  • @alexisulla5571
    @alexisulla5571 4 місяці тому +3

    sounds same as studio version, amazing vocals and musicians

  • @freemase4903
    @freemase4903 7 років тому +1

    Rest In Piece Chester. we all love you man. well always miss your music. your voice will never be forgotten.

  • @nilsontargino9462
    @nilsontargino9462 8 років тому +47

    A voz desse cara é linda demais!

  • @TXNG21
    @TXNG21 2 роки тому +1

    Why I love Linkin Park So Much

  • @diafenix
    @diafenix Рік тому +4

    That was flawless.

  • @makeyourself1988
    @makeyourself1988 4 роки тому

    He had so much control over his voice. Truly a great singer.

  • @caralegallegal59
    @caralegallegal59 7 років тому +24

    R.I.P. 20/07/2017 (Chester)

  • @MasterMind-q7m
    @MasterMind-q7m 2 місяці тому +1

    Hats off man fan forever for this legend ❤️

  • @GustavoSouza-yq3th
    @GustavoSouza-yq3th 4 роки тому +5

    Chester para sempre !
    Não me canso de ouvir suas músicas ( Numb , In the end, Caste of Glass ) 💞

  • @mccarthyed2512
    @mccarthyed2512 7 років тому +1

    those vocals make me crying .. rip chester

  • @arimono7
    @arimono7 3 роки тому +6

    Chester i miss you🥀

  • @aarondibenedetto7116
    @aarondibenedetto7116 7 років тому

    Rip Chester, and this amazing music no one will ever be able to replace you

  • @ramonvera4596
    @ramonvera4596 4 роки тому +3

    Esa voz incomparable! No caigo que todavía te allá pasado lo que paso! Siempre serás mí ídolo Chester!

  • @aloneboy9184
    @aloneboy9184 5 років тому +2

    Your voice motivates me😇.
    Love you chester sir😓

  • @Elcippo
    @Elcippo 5 місяців тому +4

    Chester was the Voice of God❤

  • @TheCupcake89
    @TheCupcake89 2 роки тому +1

    Everything about him was beautiful. I miss him.

  • @JoshuaValencia-j6n
    @JoshuaValencia-j6n 4 місяці тому +6

    Anyone else binge watching Chester versions here in September 2024 post Emily announcement.

    • @wizyshane39
      @wizyshane39 4 місяці тому +2

      Binge watching since the announcement. Im happy for them.

  • @wowjohnkaren
    @wowjohnkaren 7 років тому +1

    RIP Chester...LP wouldn't be the same...