Calvin's Desperation with Phil Bair | Dr. Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101
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- Опубліковано 4 сер 2024
- Join us LIVE to learn more about the book titled, "Calvin's Desperation: How John Calvin's Unbiblical Divine Determinism Destroys the Credibility of the Christian Faith," by Phil Bair, who will be with Dr. Leighton Flowers LIVE to answer your questions.
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#Leighton Flowers #Predestination #Calvinism #Provisionism #Calvinist #Salvation - Розваги
My college criminology students asked, "If we present an opinion on a case, different from yours, will be receive a lower grade?"
My response was, "I will grade you on the evidence you present and the logic of your position."
I saw my responsibility as a teacher to teach students HOW to think, not WHAT to think.....and to have the highest standard of proper English writing and speaking.
I
After watching this, my theology geek cup is overflowing. God is faithful and trustworthy. Thank you both.
Of milk. Wait til you chew on the meat
Of milk. Wait til you chew on the meat
Just ordered Phil's book. Thanks for all Soteriology 101 content. All the back videos keep me busy.
Imagine the arrogance of John Calvin. He wrote as if he was a psychiatrist with God on the couch and he (Calvin) working to draw out God's innermost thoughts and intentions.
Yes, no doubt God has taken careful notes throughout the Institutes, and stands an excellent chance of passing His exams, probably just edging R.C. Sproul out for highest marks, but edging him out, nonetheless.
Wow it great insight
DW: Yes! And every Calvinist has making god in their own personal image - as a part of the spiritual inheritance they received from Calvin.
I once has a Calvinist tell me he knew how many seconds it took on average for Calvin's god to make a decision!
He probably also knows when Calvin's god scratches his behind! :-D
Many Reforners /calvinists continue this with higher revelation of scripture claims.
@@truthseeker5698 DW: There is a serious consequence to adopting divine determinism.
The Reformed/Calvinists relationship to scripture collapses in on itself.
The Calvinist is taught to hold - that scripture teaches him that everything within creation is infallibly *FIXED* having been pre-determined by infallible decrees.
Now an infallible decree does not grant ALTERNATIVES from that which is decreed.
Therefore ALTERNATIVES do not exist within creation. And thus do not exist for humans.
But the Calvinist goes about his moment by moment day *AS-IF*
1) ALTERNATIVES continuously exist for him to choose between - and
2) That he is granted a choice between those ALTERNATIVES - and
3) That choice is *UP TO* him.
Thus the Calvinist continuously lives in a state of denial of that which scripture teaches him.
He continuously rejects the very things he asserts scripture teaches.
Thus the Reformed/Calvinist's relationship to scripture - is that he treats it *AS-IF* what it teaches is FALSE
This is your best program ever.
This episode was 🔥🔥🔥. The more you learn about it Calvinism the more you see the problems. Thanks
I've been a Calvinist for 50 years and I don't see problems in the texts used by the other side. If one is going to look at problems, there are more with Provisionism and Arminianism.
There can be no sin or disobedience without a choice.
bjacres7057: can not be any more simple than that.
true
Phil Bair goes for the jugular in his book
*_God Bless_*
This was absolutely a fantastic broadcast and I enjoyed every single minute of it! Thank you!!!!
Phil thanks so much for talking about the philosophical construct of Calvinism in determinism. More non-Calvinists need to point this out to Calvinists because they simply don't believe it. They believe all of Calvinism comes from the Scriptures. I did this with one guy and he told me I didn't understand Calvinism. However, I did get him to concede that determinism is philosophy. I suggested if he didn't believe in determinism then he might not even be a Calvinist. I will continue to comment on videos who drill down Calvinism to it's logical conclusions with my comment about the philosophical construct of Calvinism because this is what we should do when we're faced with any type of philosophy. I am going to purchase your book and I know that I will enjoy every single minute of it. I love how you could see the struggle in Calvin with his own doctrines. Sometimes I tell people to read the apostle Paul writings and learn about who Paul was. Blessings to both you and Leighton!!!
Always interesting discussions. I’m learning so much. Thank you brothers
It has been pre ordained that I will be listening to this...right here...right now😮
If God decrees every thing that comes to pass, good or bad, why do we have Satan? And why did Jesus die for us?
DW: Excellent questions! At SOT101 Dr. Flowers has an article on the redundancy of Satan within Calvinism. Calvin's god causes everything without exception. Satan causes nothing.
In Calvinism everything is redundant, except God.
Satan is redundant
Humanity is redundant
Nature is redundant
Reasoning and philosophy are redundant
One very nice determinist went through his theology for over an hour without mentioning Jesus. It was all back in Genesis.
@@brich2542 DW: Yes that is very typical. For the Determinist Jesus is an instrument under the control of an all powerful Determiner.
The same way Lucifer and all creatures are instruments under the control of that all powerful Determiner.
Jesus didn't really have a choice in the matter of what he would do - because what he would do was decreed by the all powerful Determiner to infallibly come to pass.
And an infallible decree does not grant any alternative from that which is decreed.
So for the Calvinist - when Jesus says *IF* this cup can pass from me - Jesus would be treating that situation *AS-IF* it was not decreed.
Apparently Jesus didn't get the memo about Calvin's doctrine of decrees! :-D
This has been so enlightening...Thank you both. I do have 1 question. If we believe that Calvinism is not true, why do you not believe those who teach it are false teachers? Having come out of Calvinist theology, I'm finding it hard to listen to anything any of the prominent teachers, (MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, Chandler, etc.) if their theology of Salvation is so wrong. Is that not the most important aspect of Christianity?
Yeah great question I also have a problem listening to people that are so confused with Calvinism
I agree. Wouldn’t Galatians 1 apply to this teaching? “He is to be accursed!”
There appears to be "levels" or degrees of erroneous teaching. Some teachers like Apollos were teaching error, but did not appear to have ill will or the desire for "sordid gain". Apollos was teaching error and was gently corrected by Aquilla and Priscilla and Apollos was won over by the gentle admonition and correction. Many Calvinists appear to be trying to search for the truth and follow Jesus. Our hermeneutic or misinterpretation can cause us to misapply Scripture, and that appears to be what is happening to many if not all Calvinists. They preach the Gospel and people get saved. It's not perfect, but God uses broken people to save others. The woman at the well led people to the Lord and she basically said "Come and see"... "a man who told me everything I'd ever done"... He must be the Messiah or something simple like that. Her theology was no doubt a jumbled mess but she could point to Christ enough for people to believe. Calvinists likewise point to Christ enough for people to get saved. Calvinists can be won over as Leighton, myself, and so many others can testify, so we should try to win them rather than push them away or cut them off.
"Calvin's Desperation", excellent guest, excellent show. Great discussion. Touched alot of bases. Home run. 🤓
Calvinists love to say their systematic gives them such assurance but the problem is that Calvinists can never actually be sure that they are not just determined to fall away because they were never actually elect.
Right. Calvin's own doctrine of "evanescent grace" destroys any possible assurance of salvation under his ideology. God could just be deceiving any given Calvinist believer that he/she is really saved. God is the ultimate deceiver according to Calvin.
@@philbairfalse conversions happen, Calvin offered an explanation.
People who believe the doctrines of grace have the tests of assurance in 1 John, just like any other believer.
Phil looks like Ming the Merciless. Thank y'all for everything.
Andy ~ Denver North Carolina
OK, gotta ask. Is Phil disco? He's in the dark but you can catch the sheen off his ulraviolet shirt. Actually reminds me of James White's Death Star Power Tower he's got pulsing in the background🌌
Phil, love ya, and appreciate the Libertarian attitude, but conservative duds give people reassurance you're not Anton LaVey or something. The Goat (ee) is cool and can work, but ya gotta remember the Sheep don't know who to trust. Don't take it too hard tho👍
Calvin must be flash Gordon lol 😆
@@ejt3708 LOL I wore the shirt that I wore at my wedding this past July to honor my new bride.
@@philbair I appreciate you my man.. Calvinism and McArthurs Lordship Salvation caused me to doubt my Salvation and the goodness of God
Wait… who else even knows who Ming the Merciless is from Flash Gordon circa 1930’s???
New Testament is full of exhortations to be obedient. It seems counter intuitive then, that we are created to either be elect or not.
DW: Yes good point! There is actually no such thing as a creature being granted the option to disobey an infallible decree. So the only way the Calvinist can say a person is disobedient to Calvin's god - is to say that what that person disobeyed was the ENUNCIATED will of Calvin's god.
It is logically impossible to disobey the SECRET will of Calvin's god - because that would require disobeying an infallible decree - which is impossible.
In Calvinism - the ENUNCIATED will is in most cases the exact opposite of the SECRET will. And in such case it functions as a FALSE REPRESENTATION of the SECRET will.
You end up with another bizarre thought process where everything is decreed before time, but God use these encouragements in scripture to bring about His predetermined plan.
@@jeffreybomba DW: Once again we have a belief system in total contradiction to itself.
If everything is decreed before time - then that would have to include every impulse that comes to pass within the human brain - decreed before time by a decree that is infallible.
Thus every impulse within the Calvinist brain will come to pass with infallible exactness - and cannot possibly be other than what it was decreed to infallibly be.
In such case - every impulse that comes to pass within that brain - comes to pass by antecedent conditions totally outside of that brains control.
Every impulse *AUTHORED* at the foundation of the world by a mind external that brain.
Thus - it follows - no impulse can come to pass within that brain which that brain can call its own.
That brain would be granted *NO SAY* and *NO CHOICE* in the matter of any impulse that will come to pass within it.
THUS:
To claim such a brain would need "encouragement" is a complete contradiction.
To treat that brain *AS-IF* it needs "encouragement" it to treat that brain *AS-IF* it is *INDEPENDENT*
And thus treat the doctrine of decrees *AS-IF* it is FALSE.
CONCLUSION:
What a Calvinist calls a "bizarre thought process" is simply a thought process that is not *DOUBLE-MINDED*
Since Calvinism is a *DOUBLE-MINDED* belief system - in constant contradiction of itself - it makes perfect sense that any thought process which is not *DOUBLE-MINDED* would be perceived by the Calvinist as bizarre
@@jeffreybomba DW: Here is a question for you Jeffrybomba.
Let's say you are required to take a Bible exam.
All of the questions are TRUE/FALSE questions.
According to the doctrine of decrees - every PERCEPTION which will come to pass within your brain was predestined to infallibly come to pass - by an infallible decree at the foundation of the world
QUESTION:
In such case - is your brain granted the ability to choose between TRUE and FALSE on any of those Bible questions?
@dw6528 wow! Can I choose "no comment?"
These days I cannot open the Bible without finding a story or statement
that contradicts Calvinism.
Then you are not actually reading the Bible.
@@eiontactics9056
Been reading the Bible and following Jesus for over 40 years
Just learning to not read in what is not actually there (Presuppositions) and chuck out all the bad theology I picked up over the years
So basically speaking Calvin is playing Dr. FREUD with God as his patient ..
I want a sequel.....James white’s Desperation
Very great discussion, both of you. Thank you. I was shocked by that clip played showing Sproul in that class. I'm sorry, but he sounded very evil. I love Jesus telling us you will know mine by their Love. I don't see love in Calvinist doctrine. God Bless you both for speaking truth.
Fabulous! I got the book. Loving it!
That was a fascinating perspective in John Calvin! He must have been a very troubled soul.
May the Lord use this book to open the eyes of many who are deceived by Calvin’s flawed theology. 🙏🏼
1:31:48
I’m always stunned when people praise up the good influence of James White.
His sneering attitude and seething hubris always muddies the waters.
MYSTERY. The word that smoothes over any false teaching.
It is a pure absurdity to think that you can reason with people on matters of faith, who themselves believe that faith can only be recieved apart from reason.
Have you read the book titled. Spurgeon v hyper Calvinisim? I've been listening and reading Spurgeons sermons. He is a major blessing, and I think God for him. I'm at the point where I wonder if RC was a true believer, born again Christian.
Grace and Peace to you. I don't believe Sproul was a Christian. That became clear to me when my wife and I studied one of his devotionals on YouVersion. It was on the 5 Solas. It clearly taught that belief in Monergism is a part of the gospel. That makes Sproul's gospel a false gospel.
@lark8356 I think where we get in trouble is when we say that predestination or election is simply not true. I am a Christian man, not a fan of any denominations because all they do is divide. RC, Piper, Lawson and White are on one side. Free will is on the other side, John 3:16 and many many more scriptures. But the truth is in the middle, John 6:37 covers both sides. Spurgeon was fighting against Hyper Calvinisim his entire ministry. Read what God says about John the Baptist, that's predestination. But I believe in scripture we see mostly free will. The rich young ruler said, no thank you Jesus. He went away sad. Spurgeon preached both sides, I highly recommend everyone listen to his sermons, not just a few but many. God bless you
@@lark8356 no, it doesn't. It means that he gunked up the Gospel with his Calvinistic convictions. He was errant. And his Calvinistic convictions put such blinders on him that he followed his logical sureness into cul-de-sacs. Listening to Sproul sometimes, I'd wish I could smack him hard across the face, and say, "WOULD YOU LISTEN TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID???!!!!" His philosophical cast of mind was his undoing. He was NOT a theologian. He should have taught philosophy somewhere. As an evangelist, he was preposterously bad.
@bobtaylor170 Grace and Peace to you. I'm not sure what you mean by "no, it doesn't." Will you please clarify?
@bobtaylor170 By the way, I wasn't saying that the 5 Solas teach that false gospel but rather that Sproul taught a false gospel in his exposition of the 5 Solas.
I listen to all of your shows and really like this one. I always appreciate your deep insight into how calvin looked at these perplexing issues having fully embraced this philosophical system.
You explain it very well ! This is very close to the Catholic view of free will and predestination - I suppose you have another 1.5B people leaning your way that you may not be aware of.
"We need to be able to tell the athiests that use Calvinism as a defeater for Christianity that Calvinism isn't the only version of Christianity historically."
No, Leighton. We need to be able to tell the atheists that Calvinism isn't Christianity. Period.
It was born of Stoicism and Gnosticism, and as such was labeled as heresy for 1500 years.
I don't think we should cast calvinists totally out of the kingdom. Many who go by that name are merely nominal calvinists who haven't fully thought about the implications of their own doctrines. Others may believe they have no option but to believe calvinism or give up Christianity. As George Macdonald (staunch anti calvinist and spiritual father of CS Lewis) said "everyone who seeks to obey the master (Jesus) is my brother"
@@christophersnedeker I'm not kicking anyone out of "The Kingdom"... how can you kick someone out if they are not in it?
Calvinism preaches a different/perverted God, Jesus and Gospel...
The core distinctives in Calvinism pervert the core fundamentals of Biblical Christianity.
1.) They believe in a Jesus that doesn't exist that only died for the Calvinistically unconditionally chosen few, instead of the Jesus as revealed in Scripture that died for all men.
There is no Good News (Gospel) in Calvinism. Can you tell me how Jesus death, burial and resurrection is Good News to all sinners in Calvinism?... I'll wait.
I'm not declaring who is saved or not individually, because only God can determine that. What I am doing is calling a spade a spade. Calvinism is just as perverted and false as Mormonism. It is a totally different religion that masquerades as Christianity to beguile the ignorant away from Truth and Christ.
Do you have double standards? Do you call Mormons your brothers and sisters? If not... what is the difference with Calvinism who don't believe in the God, Jesus or Gospel as revealed by Scripture?
@@eiontactics9056 In hindsight I think I may have been over inclusive, I suppose if everyone who endeavored to obey Jesus was a brother that would make Muslims brethren too.
@@christophersnedeker I understand, and it isn't necessarily your fault. Calvinism's system itself is parasitic. It requires a host to mimic, in this case Christianity. Calvinism is Manichaean Gnosticism Christianized. Manichaeanism is a parasitic gnostic religion. In the east, there were Manichaean Buddhists. In the west, it was Manichaean Christians. Calvinism masquerades as Biblical Christianity and is a Trojan Horse. It's designed to infiltrate and take over.
No offense to Leighton Flowers, but I feel he doesn't call a spade a spade because of his emotions. He used to be a Calvinist. Some of his mentors were Calvinists. It's sad to see, but I'd put my money on the fact that Leighton wasn't Born Again until after he got out of Calvinism and actually started believing in the real Gospel, Jesus and God.
I think he calls Calvinists his brothers and sisters and is soft on Calvinism in that way purely because of his emotions, not based on logic or reason. Definitely not based on Scripture.
We see in Galatians that Paul is very clear that anyone who perverts the Gospel, or preaches a perverted/different version of Jesus is "accursed". Damned by God.
We just need more Christians willing to call a spade a spade and heed what Paul wrote in Galatians. We need to evangelize to Calvinists the same reasons we need to evangelize to Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. Not give them false validation that they are "brothers and sisters in Christ" when they literally reject God, Jesus and the Gospel as revealed by Scripture. I think giving Calvinists this false validation is only further enabling Calvinism to thrive and is part of the issue.
🙏 ❤️
The "what practical good is it" answer at the 2-hour mark that Leighton asked, I can foresee a Calvanist would say "it's biblical truth."
Actually, the point about contradictions should remind us to read and listen to every claim closely. In all arenas, including politics, pay attention to every word from leaders.
Yes, they are "wordsmiths" and mostly lawyers who choose their words very carefully for plausible deniability .... to appear good while being vague and ambiguous enough to prevent accountability for themselves or their cohorts.
Permissive Will and Perfect Will
DW: Permission granted to creation in Calvinism - works the same way as "freedom" granted to creation works.
If Calvin's god decrees [X] to come to pass - and he does not grant "Freedom" or "Permission" sufficient for [X] to come to pass - then he is a house divided against himself.
So granting "Freedom" and "Permission" for whatever he decrees is a necessary condition of the decree.
But an infallible decree does not grant ALTERNATIVES from that which is decreed.
So there is no "Freedom" or "Permission" granted to anything that is not decreed.
THUS:
What Calvin's god causes - he permits
What Calvin's god does not cause - he does not permit.
It’s so infuriating to hear RC Sproul say I’m an atheist. Or that I’m barely saved. I’d never make these kinds of statements about Calvinists.
Daniel Amos - yeah!
Lol...."yeah, I think election is a great way to choose our president." Great answer! ✌️ Great discussion, brothers. ☝️
@1:05:00 Amen
Not sure if Phil misspoke or if this is a provision it’s position, but around 1:46:55-1:47:05 he said that God was provoking Israel so they can see the wonderful “gift of faith…” Do provisionists believe that faith is a gift? And that God has to grant faith in order to believe?
Good question... It depends on how you define "gift". "Gift" appears almost synonymous with determinism from a Calvinist perspective. Leighton believes in God's Sovereignty but that God Sovereignly gave us the capacity to respond or reject the Gospel message. It appears that we have a limited free will to choose to put our faith in Christ, and it appears that God can increase our faith. So, it appears God gifted everyone with a certain amount of faith or at least the capacity to put our faith in Chirst. Calvinists believe that we don't have the capacity to choose to believe in Christ... that faith must be given by God before we choose to believe... kind of like programming the robot with software before the robot can act... which provisionists reject.... or appear to reject that level of determinism.
@@sonnyh9774 even if it’s not the faith that Calvin teaches based on total depravity, I believe provisionists hold similar to Arminius, that there’s a pre eminent grace to be given.
@@2001BornAgainI recommend going to Soteriology101 as Leighton addresses prevenient grace and the accusations about Arminius and mislabeling of provisionists. Everything Arminius believed was not error, so it's important to address the error specifically. Using "Arminian" to describe someone is code to some people of implying they are heretics. Flowers clearly articulates where Provisionists differ with Arminius and Calvin.
Your claim is interesting, but I haven't seen the evidence that Provisionism is built upon and depends on Arminius like Calvinism is built upon and depends upon Augustine and his apparent gnostic views on total depravity. So, how does Provisionism depend on Arminius?
Calvanism has always had a bible problem. Either scripture is true or Calvanism, as the contradict each other on just what they say.
This was a good conversation. The whole conversation seems to paint the calvinistc god as totally different than the God of the Bible but somehow Calvinists are still Christian. I don't fully understand how that can be. RC basically says if you don't believe in Calvinism you're an atheist but Dr. Flowers is sure he's with the Lord 🤔
Because to a calvanist, the Armenian is condemned because they don't believe the same doctrine, but to Armenians, the calvanist is saved because they put their faith in Jesus just as the Armenian does.
@@Darthrocker06 Armenians have no dog in this fight. Their form of Christianity is distinct in its view on how Jesus' divine and human natures relate (called "Miaphysitism") but is otherwise similar to Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Even if you actually meant "Arminians", as in those who follow the soteriology of Jacob Arminius, that would be somewhat inaccurate, as Dr. Flowers and most of those who comment here aren't Arminians. If you replace "Armenians/Arminians" with the term "non-Calvinists", then your statement would be accurate.
@@DamonNomad82 i keep misspelling arminian lol
@@Darthrocker06 You're certainly not alone in that! Just 1 letter different in the middle of a longish word, and spell checkers won't catch it!
Calvinist god is similar to Allah.
If you are a calvinist, and believe in limited atonement, you cannot know that you are “really” saved.
Look at Joshua Harris, look at Derek Webb. They were all in Calvinists that later walked away.
I have yet to meet a calvinist that has true assurance of salvation. How do they know a Jesus died for them?
When I ask them, they point to an experience or their works.
If that isn’t exactly Mormonism then I don’t know what is.
Flowers does a good job of explaining Calvinist. My Brother in-law is a Calvinist.. on time he told me he didn't know if he was saved..I really didn't know what he was talking about..Well I left right there...
I suggest showing him 1 john 5:13
"These things were written.........that >you may know<
you have eternal life."
If John says we can know - and your BIL says he doesn't (or thinks we aren't given to know) it would really come down to him deciding if Scripture is true or not, after reading this verse.
If he still says he doesnt/can't know, keep praying for him.
Sometimes it takes time for the seed planted to germinate.
I hope this helps
Take care
B
Thank you Leighton and Phil!
Phil Bair is certainly going to bristle some Calvinist feathers with that book!
Looking forward to checking it out.
We have seen a resurgence in Christians falling back into trusting human philosophy, even so far as treating the commentaries of
"the church fathers" as inerrant scripture themselves.
Calvinism, Reformed theology, theistic evolution, etc.,
These are ideas and concepts being inserted into the Scripture and being affirmed by followers of these philosophies when they chant;
"Calvin said... Augustine said...James White said..."
Calvin's ideology is a philosophy of theistic determinism, it IS determinism and not formulated from what's written on the pages in Scripture; it's formulated from his own conceptual ideas about what's written on the pages in Scripture.
I honestly wonder if Calvin felt blood-guilt for persecuting, even approving of executions and abusing his opponents, but doubled down because "I'm too far into it now, gotta stick with my philosophy!".
The Lord provides.
Just Trust.
You wouldn't say it's wrong to read the fathers and other church writings though?
@33:50 Why does it matter that God has a second will (for all to be saved) if it is also determined by His decretive will
?
Why does host continually interrupt his guest? I bought the book so I could read his view. Maybe that is the plan.
Calvinism is popular, but I just can't bring myself to believe it.
See what I did there?
What ab in the out the "P" in the TULIP Calvin had innocent people murdered I can't be the only one who pleads the question "Was he saved" Please answer. Mary
I have been told by my Reformed Pastor that you don't believe in hell and to look it up for myself! Is this a fact?
He certainly believes in hell.
I recently learned that the word hardened , with regards to Pharaoh , isn't quite right , it's more like strengthen . So GOD gave more strength to Pharaoh's will but it was Pharoah that used his strong will to refuse to let the people go .So GOD didn't cause Pharaoh to do what he did but enabled him in what he wanted to do anyway . I may be misunderstanding the term but hardening Pharoah's heart sounds like causing Pharoah to act in a way beyond and against his own will .
Just like Romans 1 tells us 3 different way. God made Himself known, man understood, man willfully rejected, so God FAVE THEM OVER.
When they thought they were Christians seem to thinking they were saved by works.
I am not a calvinist, but just a thought.
Why does it say very few find the narrow way. Is it becsue they are not searching hard enough?
Why is God so hidden and hell cant be seen now to unbelievers and say thats where u go if u dont repent. Instead of they dying happily and then get a " i gotcha by God"
It's because many people are interested in having their sins painted over instead of washed away.
It's because many people are interested in having their sins painted over instead of washed away.
Divine Determinism Destroy's is a T-shirt waiting to happen
Free To Choose Jesus
A call out to the Daniel Amos band at 7:30! That’s pretty cool. I don’t normally hear one of my favorite bands mentioned.
Good to hear the good way spoken about some Calvinists...appreciating there contributions on other forums...
Thank you, Gentlemen 🌹⭐🌹⭐🌹
How can Calvinists use Joseph? Joseph say, “What you (the brothers) meant to for evil God used for good.”
Thanks!
2:10:38 Actually being a libertarian is not enough to have assurance of salvation. If there's the possibility that I as a believer can end up in hell, then assurance is a meaningless concept.
There's assurance because there's no possibility for a BELIEVER to end up in Hell. But when the believer abandons Christ and becomes an unbeliever, then there's a possibility for this UNBELIEVER to end up in Hell.
@@gk.4102 Ok, same difference. I, as a believer, can become an unbeliever and end up in hell. No guarantee that I won't become an unbeliever tomorrow, die in a car crash and end up in hell.
@@minorsingingairhead
_"Ok, same difference."_
Not the same. Assurance of salvation applies ONLY to believers NOT unbelievers.
_"No guarantee that I won't become an unbeliever tomorrow"_
True! Thus all the countless warnings in the Bible.
@@gk.4102 Thus, we can't have assurance forth its name. It's eternal life on probation, so to say.
@@minorsingingairhead _"Thus, we can't have assurance forth its name."_
AGAIN, always ask yourself: who's the "we"? If unbelievers, then no assurance. If believers, then there's assurance. It's that simple.
You cannot attribute the promise of eternal life to unbelievers!
_"It's eternal live on probation, so to say."_
Eternal life is found only IN Christ. There's no such thing as eternal life outside of Christ. People really believe that they can walk away from Christ with eternal life in their pockets? Again, life is found only in Christ!
After giving the logical ramifications of EDD some "deep" consideration (such as I am able), my tentative conclusion is that for EDD to be true, AND God not to be a sadistic Entity, (such that He would torment people for doing what He irresistibly willed they do), it would have to be true that no one (who is truly human anyway) will end up cast into the "lake of fire". And therefore whatever "hell" any humans might experience is not their eternal fate. (Which is to say that some form of what I gather is called "universalism" is the solution to the "puzzle" God has confronted us with. It's the only way I can (thus far) square the circle, so to speak.
(Calvinism would still be nonsensical (to me) since it does not include the "squaring" aspect, but the EDD aspect would be correct)
DW: The epistemic consequence that Phil pointed out is totally devastating.
Look at it this way. A Libertarian Choice - by definition is:
1) A choice between a minimum of two ALTERNATIVES
2) A choice made solely and exclusively by the human brain
In Calvinism - neither of those exist within the domain of creation.
1) An infallible decree does not grant ALTERNATIVES.
Therefore they do not exist and are thus not available for humans to choose.
2) The decree determines every impulse in the human brain. Making it the case that even if ALTERNATIVES did exist - the human brain is not granted the control necessary for *IT* to make a choice between them.
Therefore - it follows - in Calvinism - there is no such thing as Calvinist having a choice in the matter of anything.
Which means their brains are not granted the ability to choose between TRUE and FALSE on the matter of anything.
And since discernment of any proposition entails making a choice between TRUE and FALSE on that proposition - it follows - the Calvinist brain is not granted the ability to discern TRUE from FALSE on any matter.
That is the epistemic consequence of EDD which Phil was alluding to.
@@dw6528 - Yeah, I too see major problems with Exhaustive divine determinism, and don't consider it plausible myself. It would mean the words you're reading are actually God's, and any response to them are actually God's. He'd be alone effectively. What I laid out would be far more plausible (to me) if that 'E' stood for effectual or some such thing. As in, us having no freedom to effect anyone's "fate", but just on what people were learning/incorporating or not, in a sort of kindergarten-like scenario. Basically becoming accustomed to being a human, in preparation for a future more serious/potentially impactful level of freedom.
@@johnknight3529 DW: If your brain is not granted the ability to discern TRUE from FALSE on the matter of anything - then it follows - you have no way of knowing if anything you are thinking is TRUE or FALSE.
It is humanly impossible for the Calvinist to adopt his doctrine - and at the same time retain a sense of human normalcy.
That is why the Calvinist asserts his doctrine is TRUE - while treating his doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE.
Thus Calvinism forces its believers into a state of DOUBLE-MINDEDNESS.
And that is why Calvinist language is a language of DOUBLE-SPEAK
@@dw6528 - Sure, learning to distinguish self from other, sensed from imagined or remembered, basic causality and the like, would be required to grasp the significance of true and false, without which there's no point (that I can fathom) to us existing as conscious entities made in the likeness of a creator God, for said creator God. "It" would be, metaphorically speaking, playing with dolls . .
"It is humanly impossible for the Calvinist to adopt his doctrine - and at the same time retain a sense of human normalcy."
Yes, I must conclude . . (if Mr. Flowers is not lying to me about having done so once upon a time ; )
It's freedom of the mind itself, which "threatens" the ability to keep someone caught in a "mind trap" that denies freedom of the mind, I think.
@@johnknight3529 DW: Yes your final statement is very well put - and very well thought out!!
And Dr. Flowers has lamented many times about the unnecessary conundrum the Calvinist puts himself in - just for the sake of clinging to that doctrine.
I often use an analogy to describe the trap the Calvinist is in.
A monkey comes upon a glass jar that is nailed to the floor. The jar has a banana in it. That banana is like gold to that monkey. He reaches into the jar to grab the banana. But the mouth of the jar is too small for him to pull his hand out along with the banana.
He can pull his hand out any time he wants to - if he is willing to give up that banana. But he is not willing to give it up. And he retains a death grip on it. It is precious to him and he will not let it go. Therefore - he is trapped - because he won't let go of that banana.
There must be something that each individual Calvinist sees within the doctrine and social structure of Calvinism which for the Calvinist becomes that banana.
Jesus puts it in terms of having 2 masters.
Eventually one master will be in conflict with the other - and as Jesus says - the individual will compromise one master - in order to cling to the other.
In Calvinism - the doctrine - is the banana which the Calvinist clings too - and it becomes his master instead of Jesus. I makes him DOUBLE-MINDED.
The Calvinist is mentally ensnared and requires deliverance. And every time I have dialog with a Calvinist - I thank the Lord that he spared me from that ensnarement.
It seems Calvinist claim God is the author and puppet master of this grand play called life. An opposing view may be that God is the author of a great improve where we are bad actors. He allows us to be bad actors to be free to love Him - act rightly. When we act badly, God uses our bad acting for His good. I believe this is one of the logical points made in the book of Job.
Jean Calvin, a poem:
Jean Calvin,
Où est la tête?
Jean Calvin,
pardon my debt:
I see the face
I see the time
I see the clock
I see the crime;
but where is the man
who died for sin?
Did he escape
(this Godhead kin)?
Did he escape
when faced with time;
did he abscond
the utmost dime?
Right. How long would humans survive if God had created humans without the capacity to reason?
GOD gave us everything to serve Him ( wth will and desire) all mechanisms for physical and spiritual survival.
Evidence? Read Genesis 3, carefully.
“Mystery” of the New Covenant Gospel: Romans 1:16 …to the Jew “first”, also to the Greek
1..How did an OT Israelite get into the Sinai Covenant? Luke 1:59-60, Luke 2:22-24, (Simeon did mention the Gentiles in Luke 2:30-32. )
Are many modern churches still trying to get infants into the Sinai Covenant with infant baptism?
Is the Sinai Covenant now “obsolete”? (See Heb. 8:6-13, and Heb. 12:18-24)
You must be “baptized” to be saved, but it has nothing to do with water. (See Mark 1:8, Acts 11:16, Rom. 8:9, 1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 4:1-5) Which baptism is related to salvation?
2..How does a person get into the New Covenant? Eph. 1:12-13 Hear, Believe, then Sealed with the Holy Spirit (“baptized” with the Holy Spirit, as in Mark 1:8 and Acts 11:16, etc.)
3..Who first took the Gospel to the Gentiles? Acts 11:15-16
4..The “Mystery” in Eph. 3:1-13, 5:30-32 Who is now the King of Israel in John 1:49? Is the King of Israel now your King? Are you covered by the King of Israel's blood? What does God see when He looks at you?
===========================================================
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Watch the UA-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
These people are waiting for something that’s already there! If they go to church and hear the gospel, then they’re already being called, every time, for the gospel of Christ is the power unto salvation, nothing else!
So there are no contradictions in what you term Provision! What you call a contradiction we call a paradox. From what this man is saying, God is a man who can be fully understood. He is trying to put God into a box.
If the root is good so is the fruit. Jesus said that we would know them by their fruits, and not their roots. If the root is bad then the fruit is bad. Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Compatiblism: God made you like a cheap RC car that only turns in one direction, so when you don’t turn in the other direction it is your choice/responsibility.
If we deliver an ax blow, how do we later "soften," it?
If a person has a healthy ego, how can they not be embarrassed by their own incoherence or illogic?
White: Why do we follow preachers who mistreat opponents? Even if our theology is the same as theirs, should we enable these preachers?
Its naive to believe that God will overlook bad behavior, in favor of a belief, calvinism or provisionism.
Actions/behavior matter.
@1:07-1:08:30 Aaron Rogers argument against the calvinist god that he was presented as God The Most High.
Calvinists claims being brought to the light once again. Implications/ ramifications of conclusions matter.
Enough of the neurotic mystery claims.
Let me help you gentleman out with something regarding 2 Peter 3:9 and with God “outstretching his hands all day” to a rebellious people and his patience Israel.
The hard truth that both of you are right now unwilling (at least to some degree) to accept is this:
It’s possible for the lost to be saved, and it is also possible for those who have been once saved to so sin so as to be eternally lost once again.
That is precisely why Peter says God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. That would include the lost and the saved who’ve gone astray.
There’s not an appreciable difference between claiming God is a deceiver and holding to the idea that once a person has been saved they cannot possibly be forever lost. The guest, Phil Bair, is at least closer to the truth if not altogether right about the dangerous ability the Christian has in leaving the faith so as to be again lost.
Dr. Flowers, the day you realize this is day your evangelical power will exponentially grow. Let go of the DBTS doctrine that is obscuring the clear teaching of Scripture on this matter.
We trust God as trustworthy, and God obligates us to be faithful. It really is just that simple. Faithfulness for the Christian does not require sinless perfection on his / her part, but striving unto it being antithetical to turning away from it is in keeping with saving faith.
I pray with all sincerity that you will see your deep self-contradiction.
RD Patton
That comment about if A is true, and if A is false at the same time.
R.C. Sproul Jr. admitting that his idea of God isn't necessarily Christian is priceless, LOL. He wouldn't admit that's what he meant, but that certainly sounds like what he said.
I'm going to address the elephant in the room. I'm not sure R.C. Sproul Jr. was saved. I'm not sure he knew the actual God, or placed his faith in the actual Jesus for his salvation. If you believe you are predestined by God for salvation, what room is there for faith? You aren't relying on Christ at that point. You are relying on your own supposed election.
RC Sproul wasn't saved. In one of his last video appearances just before his death, he is sticken with fear as he says that if he "is wrong about all of this (referring to his false doctrines) then he is going to hell."
Then the light goes out of his eyes, he stares into space for a few moments, and then swallows the lump in his throat as he hardened his heart against the conviction of the Holy Spirit one last time.
He died a faithless egomaniac who worshipped himself and his false doctrines. Any grace he had under Christ was renounced in his heart and he chose to stand firm on the doctrines of demons, his own delusions, and the lies of faithless, dead men who did the same before him.
He had no hope of Christ, had no assurance, and he outright denied the existence of the Holy Spirit of the Bible. For him it was all works and fruits of the flesh mislabeled as fruit and work of the Spirit. Just a spiritually dead pharisee until the end.
Wait when did he deny the holy spirit?
Surah 7:99 Says ONLY THOSE WHO DON'T TRULY BELIEVE AREN'T AFRAID OF ALLAHS DECEPTION. Abu Bahkr Muhammad's right hand man said he would fear the deception of Allah even of he had 1 foot into heaven. Sounds like Evanescent Grace.
The whole hardening of Israel is encapsulated by Jesus’ sermon in Nazareth. They wanted to throw him off a cliff because he said these words of Isaiah are fulfilled in your hearing. They expected a Messiah who would save them from the Romans, not a Messiah that would save them from sin. The whole point of the sacrificial offerings was to cover sin, but it did not change their hearts. Jesus came not only to cover sin but to change hearts.
Regarding the teaching by RC Sproul:
Really???
Jeremiah 19:5
Jeremiah 32:35
According to Calvinists, God did not really mean what He said, and if that's true then He and His Word cannot be trusted. For instance, in John 3:16, Calvinists believe that God did not mean 'whosoever will,' because before the foundations of the universe were laid He had already chosen the select few who would be saved, and the rest, well, tough.
RC Sproul sounds so angry. Why does he keep growling? Never liked that guy even as a Calvinist. Let alone the way he demonizes nonCalvinists as atheists.
DW: R.C's argument that people are atheists if they don't believe in Calvinism - is a logical fallacy that is so simple a high-school student could see it.
It works this way:
For me to say - I do not believe that you raised your left hand at Time-T - is the equivalent of me saying I believe that at TIME-T you did NOT raise your left hand
In either case - that statement is founded on the premise that you exist.
R.C.s reasoning is - is that for me to believe you did not do a certain thing equates to me believing you don't exist.
But no one in his right mind would argue that at TIME-T you did not raise your left hand - if they believed you don't exist!!!
The whole argument is brain-dead!
@@dw6528RC Sproul said no such thing. Easily proven by searching "are arminians saved RC Sproul".
You guys sure like to bear false witness 🤥🤥🤥
@@dustincampbell4835 DW: Did you not listen to the youtube video? Its right there in the recorded audio of R.C. Sproul. The evidence you sight only shows R.C. making an argument in one presentation - and then contradicting that argument in a later presentation.
On top of that - in the presentation "are aminians saved" R.C. has the audacity to claim non-Calvinists are inconsistent with their own belief system.
R.C. in doing so - is simply pointing a finger at himself.
The only Calvinists who are close to being logically consistent with their belief system - are the ones whom they themselves call "HYPER"
Every Calvinist goes about his office *AS-IF* nothing is determined in any part . Which means - he treats that which scripture teaches him *AS-IF* it is *FALSE*
You guys sure like to be DOUBLE-MINDED! :-D
@@dw6528no, I didn't hear the part with RC Sproul. Do you have a timestamp for that? I would appreciate it. I'd be happy to verify your comment and apologize if I'm in the wrong.
As an aside, Hyper-Calvinists are not logically consistent, they're simply the group that's easiest for you to lump all Reformed believers into so that you can strawman their position rather than deal with the texts and provide consistent exegesis.
@@dustincampbell4835 DW: Sure - check out the video at around minute 52.
They will play a clip from R.C.
-quote
And they said to me: Just because I don't believe that God immutably unchangeably ordains whatsoever comes to pass I'm an atheist?
And I said to them yes! - that's exactly what I am telling you. - end quote
Thus it follows:
1) The foundational core of Calvinism is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) as enunciated within Calvinism's doctrine of decrees.
2) Therefore - he who does not believe in Calvinism's doctrine of decrees - is not a Calvinist.
3) Thus - per R.C.'s argument - that one must be an Atheist.
I see this all the time in people like Derek Webb. Deny a doctrine, then continue believing the doctrine as an excuse to leave it.
If you are going to reject Calvinism, of Mormonism, etc..., do
NOT then argue that the god you just denied has to do or be X.
If you deny a doctrine, live your life that does not reject God, but the characteristics that the cult told you.
Do not reject the god of Calvinism and say that the God of Calvinism must do something for or to you. accept your denial and understand that the god of your cult is not like the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the God of the Bible.
I reject the false god that condemned people before he created them. I believe in the biblical God that permits any and all to believe.
I reject the god that must regenerate me unto life in order that I CAN believe. I accept the God that says to believe unto new life.
"...alternative views..." Really? How about left Calvinism for the TRUTH.
If God is the great revealer, and is able to reveal the truth about himself in scripture, why would anyone be so pretentious to conclude that God would leave a doctrine of inclonclusive confusion, (Calvinism) especially when it comes to soteriology. Would not God want to make it abundantly clear how God forged the way to salvation in simple terms for any person even a child to understand ? Jesus said he who comes to me must come as a child for of such is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3) SATAN, on the other hand, wants to confuse soteriology, remove hope, cause people to give up on coming to Him, and portray God as Evil. If people conclude they dont want salvation because God is evil then Satan has won. Think about it this is what the doctrine of calvinism exactly does with sovereign determinism. GOD SAYS He is not the author of Confusion but of love, power and a sound mind. Calvinism muddies the waters of salvation. Think about it , does that come from God or from Satan. Plus satan would want humans to conclude the inconclusiveness of gods will by concluding its the "mystery of gods council" na na na that is Not Gods style. The scritptures reads
"Come let us REASON TOGETHER " isaiah 1:18 the gospel can be reasoned out according to scriptures. According to Calvinism reasoning out salvation is an affront to Gods sovereignty. That is absurd on it's face and in conclusion those who embrace 5 point calvinism are fools.
Calvinism is a rabbit hole.
Once in it it is almost impossible to see out.
Thankfully I never fell in.
It influenced my picture of God but contradicted Jesus' picture of God particularly in the Gospels.
Amen, If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen The Father.
Reformed calvinism subscribers are contortionists of the scriptures
Nothing like Jesus in application.
Calvinism sounds like another form of gnoticism. These false doctrines all have special knowledge needed as a requisite. The Gospel is so simple a child can understand it, this is done on purpose to cover all that want to come and bend a knee in humility.
That is because determinism only existed in stoicism and gnosticism until 400AD and Augustine. We was a Manachean Gnostic for 9 years before “converting.” He then spent years supposedly fighting against determinism. That earned him the position of Bishop and aft ward he flipped the script and began using political connections to force a mode biblical sounding version of his gnostic beliefs into the mainstream. Leighton has several videos about Augustine. There is more surviving evidence in Augustine’s own hand that he framed Pelagian than there is supporting any of the charges he brought against Pelagian.
This is excellent thinking. Aristotelian logic, law of non-contradiction, law of excluded middle, the law of identity may have been credited to Aristotle, but God is the creator of logic. He will not violate it with Calvinistic nonsense.
James White, RC, Piper can not be trusted at all.
re trusted... include JonnyMac too. So many been brought into calvinism via his "ministry"
Yeah, TBH I am EXTREMELY cautious about anything a Determinist says, if for no other reason than they are prone to using the Same Vocabulary, Different Dictionary.
Also, Determinists are not prone to complimenting non-Determinists, but are prone to apparent arrogance (e.g. James White). I do not remember Jesus complimenting the Pharisees, so I am not sure it is something that Determinists can handle.
@unitedstates3068 I agree, I'm doing a deep dive into Calvinisim. Spurgeon was fighting against Hyper Calvinisim his entire ministry. Check out the book Spurgeon v hyper Calvinisim. Spurgeon definitely did not believe in Calvinisim the way it's taught today. TULIP is a major misrepresentation of God's word. God bless you
@@ejt3708I agree, when I listen to White I wonder if he loves anyone.
I am not sure exactly why folk appeal to Spurgeon so much if I am being honest.
It seems like Calvinist and Non-Calvinist alike appeal to the guy.
Do people feel that he explains things well or is it his flirtation with ecumenical ideas?
Phil should really shave. He looks like a dead ringer for anton lavey!
God created (determined) every human characteristic.
And what explains evil is the human characteristics of human will and human desire.
Gid placed no limits on will or desire. The only limit on will are thise things we cannot will into existence....I can will myself to fly but I am not able to fly by God's design.
However, I can desire anything because God did not limit my desires. Adam and Eve were designed to make choices in the desires they pursued. Follow the evidence in Genesis 3.
No design can exceed its design perimeters.
Cain and Abel had the same design perimeters as their parents.
An apologetics group named after an elven enclave on middle-earth? 🤣
God is so weak that He can’t be “sovereign” without strings. Calvinist can’t see how much greater it makes God to have complete foreknowledge without puppets with strings.
This is one of the most helpful discussions I have ever heard in my 20+ years of preaching. However, it genuinely bothers me that one or both of you seem to indicate that RC Sproul is someone who has for all of his preaching career mischaracterized God, (which I would share such a belief with you that he has done so) and died in that state unrepentant; and yet you allude to his now having gone on to be with the Lord. I do not understand this and I don’t believe it can be understood in view of God’s grace.
I am firmly convinced that God can forgive all sin when a man’s life is characterized by repentance toward God. If RC Sproul’s life is one that was not characterized by repentance in this matter of Sovereignty and election and so forth why suggest he died as God’s friend? This was a man who regardless of his convictions and intellect and correct doctrinal stand on other matters has also led possibly millions into a wrong belief of and about God.
At what point does doctrine really matter with reference to the correct characterization off God? If I taught as doctrine God was a deceiver, would God be pleased with me?
I believe that God knows what he is going to do or what he is going to cause to come to pass. I don't believe the entire future is known even to God because it has happened yet. The future is open about many things and not settled even in the mind of God.
God's will should be understood as; He has a perfect will... and a permissive will.
His perfect will - His perfect all knowing will and desire.
His permissive will - the things He allows those with free choice to do.
The fact that sin exists in the first place should be enough proof Calvinism is wrong😊
The only good thing calvin did was give some believers their white robes when he burned them at the stake.
Could you please provide historical sources/documentation which validate your claim that John Calvin burned believers at the stake?
@dustincampbell4835 just check out got questions.
They clean it up for you
@@keepitrealoriginal470
years ago this Fall John Calvin participated in torture and murder using his position of power.
@keepitrealoriginal so the answer is no then. Got Questions is an excellent resource; but they aren't supporting your claim so I'm not sure why you suggested them.
Also they support the biblical view of Monergism and are "4 point Calvinists" . Strange that someone who endorses Flowers would recommend such a resource...
@@truthseeker5698 keep pushing that guilt by association angle, broken record. I'm sure that's a lot easier for you than actually arguing the doctrinal issues.
Calvinest are starting to appear as phariseeze
All I know is this so many Falls teaches and preaches like 70% and false doctrines today Calvin is right up there with one of the worst Falls teaches he's really hurt a lot of people false he helped destroy a lot of Souls and his Doctrine is destroying a lot of churches with really blows me away is some of these people are the smartest people that follow Calvin a most intelligent and that know the Bible pretty good but really don't know the Bible at all and it Bible says come as a child and a child can understand the Bible better than some of these theologians God help us on Judgment Day while it's going to be a real Reckoning
Nobody can lose their salvation. Betrayal and Apostasy is completely different. No where in scripture do we see anyone losing there salvation. Flowers makes the mistake of picking sides but not nearly as bad as RC, Lawson, Piper and others. John 6:37 covers both sides. Spurgeon preached both truths, sides.
Do you mean both heretical doctrines???
@@gregorylatta8159I don't understand your question. Do you see anyone losing their salvation in scripture? Please share scripture if you do. Thank you
Calvinism is NOT scriptural regardless of what you believe about eternal security
@@ironleatherwood Arminians think you can lose your salvation, not me! Both Calvinism and Armiianism are false the same and different reasons.
@@RedRose-fr8zeI don't believe Calvinisim is correct either. Satan often will provide a little truth to deceive.
I totally disagree with Calvinism/determinism but this idea that God has to make logical sense, combined with him being all powerful doesn’t work imo.
The burning bush comes to mind. A bush in the desert on fire should be consumed yet it isn’t because it was God who caused it to happen. Unless you’re trying to say God logically did an illusion, or changed the molecular content of the bush to make it invincible, which in of itself is illogical. Jesus died and rose from the dead which is the logical except that he’s God and he doesn’t have to play by the rules. My point is saying God has to play by the same rules of logic and reason as us is a slippery slope imo. There’s plenty in the Bible and philosophy to debunk Calvinism without having to put God into some kind of logical law driven entity of reason.
If God is in fact all powerful and soverign who are we to say he can’t make water dry or fire wet or ice warm or something true be untrue etc. that’s not to say he does in fact do those things I just think it’s risky to limit God in anyway.
Also if we start thinking we can logically understand God and his motives beyond the clues he’s given us then we start getting a lot of weird or illogical answers to questions about this life and people and their souls, the after life etc.
Why do you think that we Calvinists have problems with evangelizing? You are talking utter nonsense. We are told to spread the word, to preach the gospel. We have no idea who is going to be saved, but we do know that it will be through preaching that they will be saved. Many of the greatest evangelists have been Calvinists. Your position is the same. God knows who will believe, but you do not.