Why did John Piper become a Calvinist? | Dr. Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- Dr. Leighton Flowers welcomes back Warren McGrew, the Idol Killer, to discuss a presentation by John Piper who is recounting his conversion into Calvinism (seen here: • How Did John Piper Bec... ).
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To learn more about Warren, go here: / @idolkiller
WOW, brother, 15 minutes into this and you brought out a truth I never saw about Calvinist teaching! It does undermine scripture, and puts it on a level with any other book, in that, if God has decreed everything, then any book is as inspired as the Bible!! Oh no!! Thanks, Bro Leighton. That's why Im not a Calvinist. I've always told them, "I guess the reason I do not believe it's Biblical or rational is because God has decreed me not to believe it, or I would."
This could hopefully be a help to shake up someone's tbinking! Good point, thanks.☝️
mickknight, 🎯they hate it when we say that. I often comment, similarly a couple ways.... 'If Calvinism is true...I've been predestined not to believe it. But if it's not true,(and it isn't), there is always hope for those who believe it is.'
'I have enough faith to believe the Gospel, but I'll never have enough faith to Believe in Calvinism.' .. '
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT you got it, R.L.....I've said it for yrs, too. To determine how 'hyper' one is, I always get to the point right off and ask, "Do you believe that God willed Adam to sin in the garden?" And if they are five point, they say "yes, He decrees every sin!" It's a wicked doctrine.
It just never 'clicked' about the scriptures then being brought to that low level of being as 'inspired by God' as every other cult, occult, whatever, is His will!
It's as incoherent a teaching as atheism, in that, without God even our thoughts are untrustworthy, because our minds are reduced to chemical reactions in our brain, and we cannot be sure of anything we see, hear, read, ect....for they are only the results of a mindless, unguided, chemical process as we all are! Accidents! Wow. That is powerful, logical reasoning why not to believe either philosophy. These theories have no basis in reality, in light of many evidences, and where Calvinism is concerned, in light of what the Bible plainly says and doesn't say, one would have to have 'help' to come away from scripture thinking election and predestination are anywhere remotely close to the five points of such an ungodly doctrine.
Lord bless, brother. Bro. Leighton always does a great job. Let's "Go Tell"! ☝️✌️
And Amen, brother, "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" or a calvinist, in light of scripture! Good answer, that's a great book! It's one of a few I give away! 🙏
@@mickknight6963 🎯 I have a friend who often points out... 'there was no devil to tempt the devil'. Warren McGrew did a video 'debate/conversation' with Tyler Vela last year where Tyler actually to the position that God doesn't 'think'. Which begs the question ... Did he ever? And, if so, when did he stop?... Scripture says he plans to do a 'new' thing... but that must be as rhetorical as the part in the Lords Prayer about 'thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven'🤔 I guess I don't have enough faith to be a Calvinist or an Atheist... only enough to believe the Gospel.🤠
Calvinist theology is comforting to those who are in love with theology. After a lifetime of wanting to read the scripture cover to cover and be able to explain all of it, I realized that they pretty much skipped over everything but Paul for any meaningful discussion. They are in love with theology and are very critical of those who don’t agree with them.
Then I explored Catholicism and fell in love with Jesus Himself. The theology works so beautifully. Same with Orthodoxy. So happy to have found a way to enjoy the presence of my Savior in the sacraments. Calvinists and evangelicals caricature the ancient churches as well and miss the centrality of the living and present Savior, not just the theology about Him.
As you go through these points it not only destroys Calvinism but it gives me a deeper understanding of the gospel itself. Thank you. Praise. the Lord!
Please don't defend Calvinism in any way. Please. John Piper's son left Christianity but I believe he left the awful Calvinism his father teaches.
@@user-qf9dh8cj7mI tend to believe that Calvinism itself is, if it is in fact false, a completely false gospel utilized as a tool of deception to cause believers to fall away, and unbelievers to reject Jesus.
It’s been a major stumbling block for me, and one I desperately want to refute, but struggle to do so. If it is true, it will be the death of my soul, and if it’s false, the true gospel must be so freeing that I can’t reject it.
In other words, if Calvinism is true, it’s God’s will that I reject the gospel because of it, but if it’s not true, Calvinism is an evil false faith that needs to be despised while lovingly remembering that Calvinists are humans who are in error.
Please pray that I can work through these crises of faith.
Warren McGrew has been "grewing" on me. I appreciate his sincere desire to pursue truth with the desire to stay as positive as possible. Laughter is good medicine and we can learn a lot from Warren.
Who says miracles have ceased? Warren and Leighton combined did a video in under three hours!
Warren
Drew McGrew
It's Grew, actually. Grew McWarren.
I'm so confused right now. 😅
@@lonelyguyofficial8335you & me both lol
If we try to identify "doctrines of demons" I believe Augustinianism/Calvinism qualifies. It also seems clear from history that Augustine had some kind of experience or crisis that caused him to drastically change his theology after previously agreeing with early church teaching which led to aggressive persecution and misrepresentation of opponents. It is quite possible that a deceiving spirit affected him - perhaps because he was predisposed through his previous Manichaeism or his desire to eliminate opponents. When reading one of Piper's books, Future Grace, I had the experience of feeling quite happy about the main thesis proposed and large passages in it and then suddenly being disturbed by intrusive predestinarian passages that seemed of a different nature. It was as if a different person had written those. Some have commented on the cultish nature of Calvinism and I strongly suspect that one of the demons tasked with spreading false doctrine operated on Augustine and revisited Calvin, given his slavish devotion to the ancient "father". The demonic aspect explains the stubborn blindness of its devotees to its absurdities and frankly blasphemous claims about the character of God - as well as the sometimes unseemly mocking arrogance of some of their responses to reasoned discussion. Interestingly Spurgeon is a good example of someone who was mind was brainwashed by reading almost exclusively calvinistic material in his youth but whose great loving heart clearly could not fully compute it - so very much of his preaching appeals to the will of the hearer because he was communicating God's loving heart to them. I believe he now realises that his wonderful preaching was not merely God's method of collecting the already elect but rather his way of persuading the otherwise lost to repent and believe.
It does seem like Satan may have created Calvinism!!!
Calvanists believe as I'm sure you know that God selects a certain amount of souls to come to Him and that humans have nothing to say about their eternal fate. They weren't chosen so they cannot come to Christ.
Apparently they haven't read or don't believe John 3:16.
False doctrine.
Yet I heard MacArthur (CALVANIST) says you can take the mark of the beast and still be forgiven, which is False according to my bible. He said its not the unforgivable sin and that Peter denied Jesus and was forgiven.
@elizabeththompson6644 God decided we have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved!!!
@@gregorylatta8159 Yes, I know that.
((LOL... I stopped the video here (1:54:13) to make this comment... then let it play and you said the same thing 🤣🤣)))....1:54:13.... THIS is why what you guys are doing is SO very important. Imagine if John Piper had the tools your channels provide when he was in college as a young earnest believer to rebut the Calvinist interpretation of the scriptures he was confronting.🤦🏻♂ It' much harder to see the Duck... after you've become convinced it's a rabbit by someone you trust.
So true, again R.L. the duck and rabbit is so true .
@@sheilasmith7779 I laughed out loud after I started playing the video again and Leighton said what I'd already written. I pray these men understand just how important what they are doing is. The Calvinists had a head start online and there was no opposition for years. Thank God there are many channels like this now and they are gaining more steam every day. More and more testimonies of people coming out of the fog of 'Reformed' theology are posted all the time.
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT I look for your comments. Always spot on.
One factor, maybe the essential one, is the interest and desire of the individual. Those to whom truth is number one in their life will find it, whether there are 10,000 calvinists preaching online and only one non-calvinist preaching on a street corner. I believe that.
Living in this world and trusting God is a huge challenge. I can fall victim to panic.
Those that genuinely want God's truth will get it.....and the number of His messengers doesn't matter.
I remind myself that only 1/3 of the colonists supported a revolution against the most powerful nation on earth, and they won. And the story of Gideon is also a reminder for me. I look for all the signs that God is waking up His people. Songs like, "Try that in a Small Town," or "Rich men north of Richmond." Signs of hope.
But I also accept that things may, and likely will, competely collapse in the West, before a sound temple can be built. I accept that God delivers what we need in order to change us. I accept that painful consequences are corrective. I look for miracles and opportunities.
I always pray for truth and courage.....and resilience.
@@sheilasmith7779 Thanks for the compliment. The mention of our Revolutionary times and the 1/3'rd stat is true. The Colonies were divided about equally, between 3 groups. British Loyalists, the Ambivalent, and the supporters of the Declaration. Many people don't know our history any more. You and I know they don't teach the truth of it anymore in schools. Even the teachers have been lied to by their professors. Communist defector from the early '80's, Yuri Bezmenov, did lectures about how successfully our educational system had been infiltrated and our patriotism and love of country was already undermined.. even back then. UA-cam has very good videos of him, it's certainly helps understanding how we "got here" as a society. Nobody was paying attention, now a majority of everybody with 2yrs of college in the last 40yrs has received a Marxist world view regardless of what they think about Jesus.... and they don't eve know it.
I've heard the sermons about how God must to bring America down or he'll have to apologize to Sodom... The rhetoric can get people worked up.. but I don't buy it. God would save Nineveh for ten souls. For all our faults, America is still the bastion of hope... but we have a responsibility to stand up for the freedom we've been given. And people are, finally... more and more every day. Reagan was right in saying Freedom isn't passed down in the bloodstream, and is never more than a generation away from extinction.
Not meaning to get political, but freedom is tied to the Gospel of Christ, and being in bondage to man is at odds with it, IMO.
I have argued with a Calvinist friend of mine about this issue many times in the past. His position is those who fought against the King with Washington were Biblically wrong not to submit to 'God ordained authority'... I asked him if they were 'ordained' to rebel... and he hung up on me... again. 🤷🏻♂His Granddaughter was in HS and he claimed those who were not Christians had no 'truth' because they don't have Jesus... and literally hated any 'truth'.. He rejected people like Dennis Prager, Glenn Beck, Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, etc on that basis. Saying they have nothing of value to to share. So I asked him if his Granddaughter's atheist teacher could be trusted to teacher her the truth of Geometry correctly.... he hung up on me.. again, again.
He wants to be a Patriot, and believes in his heart and tries to say the right things, but it's almost impossible for a Calvinist to live "as if" their doctrine is true in real life. The cognitive dissonance is mind-numbing. When I forced him to be true to his theology and he finally had to admit Obama was "God's man for the hour"🤣🤣 I'm sure he feels the same way about Biden🤦🏻♂. He's an intelligent guy... (they're often the most susceptible to Calvinism), but he can't see the rabbit for the duck anymore.
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTTso good to finally see the tide turning
It’s still remarkable that they site Romans 9. But all sides agree that Romans 9 does not say he chose anyone prior for salvation. Just that the “beef” between the two ended up in service of the older to the younger.
Nobody just reads the Bible and becomes a calvinist.
Many Calvinists claim otherwise, but those that do almost always claim to have started out "Arminian", which means that they already started out with about 90% Calvinist presuppositions and were already reading those into the text.
I agree. Funny how so many ex-Calvinists say they got hooked through listening to a MacArthur sermon, a Piper tape, are reading a Sproul book.
along that line, i wonder how popular calvinism is in 3rd world countries? especially those anti-christian countries?
if very unpopular, one interpretation is that calvinist missionaries dont like discomfort and persecution.
I actually did, but ita because I had a Calvinist leaning translation and appauling hermeneutical skills.
😳 Shush. 🫢
They're not ready to hear that.,
"When I entered seminary...I believed in the freedom of my will. In the sense that I thought it was ultimately self-determining. I hadn't learned that from the Bible, I had absorbed that from the self-infatuated, self-exalting, self-esteeming, self-sufficient air you and I breath every day in this country."
(No you didn't, according to your doctrines, Mr. Inconsistency ; ) God Himself predetermined for you to BE LIKE THAT . . according to your doctrines . . but in neither case were you responsible for it...)
What I (nobody special) just heard there, was a confession . . That it was a self-infatuated, self-exalting, self-esteeming man who "read" in that Book that God picked him from before the world began, to be one the true thinkers/speakers of the very mind of God . .
While I (nobody special) who (it seems to me) hadn't really gotten very close to seeing myself as worthy of infatuation, exaltation or even high esteem, never "read" anything in that Book which caused me to think/believe that God picked "me" for anything (more than existing), from before the world began . .
(Go figure ; )
Slam dunk roast. 🥲
The Gospel...2,000 years and counting
The Cult of Calvin... 500 years and counting.
1:10:10.... YES! THIS is why they seldom, if ever, introduce the dirty details of their doctrine when evangelizing the lost....They use carefully selected words... and deceit. They may argue some of these points when proselyting a believer...but even then they usually shy away from the details until the "hook" is set deep. Confronting the unavoidable consequences of Calvinist theology demands swallowing the bitter pill... That God is 100% responsible for Jeffry Dahmer's appetite and ordained every cannibalistic murder he committed because it pleased him to do so. It cannot be avoided and remain consistent to the theology. No amount of ink spilled beyond the WCF III God did.... "unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass" changes anything.
John Piper claims he cried for days before bending his knee to the "Doctrines of Grace"... it doesn't sound like a normal reaction to hearing "Good News"😎
Great comments!
Piper must've been experiencing irresistible grace!
And so often we are being pressured to knuckle under to the hard, cruel, bad news about God. It is held over our heads as a bitter pill of sad truth about God that we must swallow, or be guilty of creating a faIse God in our minds. But we didn't create the God we believe in. We believe in Him because we believe His testimony.
Notice he (Piper) said, he was taught this rubbish in seminary. Similar to R.C. Sproul "I walked into the class room & there it was on the chalkboard Regeneration precedes faith"
Honestly, I am SO tired of hearing Romans 9 being quoted by Calvinists. What about the rest of Romans, ie. chapter 10, and 11, and the rest of the Bible. You can’t build an honest theology based on a few verses, or 2 or 3 chapters. The Bible is huge, and must be taken as a whole.
I used to be one of those Calvinists that would run to Romans 9. Thank God I've been freed of this error!
I am so grateful for the ministry of Flowers. He has been thinking about the soteriological topics of Calvinism, and bringing many clear thinking, highly qualified guests for so long that he is able to bring piercing clarity to why Calvinism is wrong. A much needed antidote to this disease within Christendon, especially since it's roots, at least in the West, go back to the 4th century with Augustine and contain the illustrious founders of the Reformation which we, without being informed otherwise, would implicitly trust.
No doubt about it, Leighton Flowers, because he has thought and talked about this topic so extensively, has become a clear thinking force Calvinists must reckoned with.
Look at the debate with Mormon apologists with Calvinist apologists with James White moderating… The end is embarrassing for the Calvinists because the Mormans began to expose the dangers of Calvinism and each objection to Calvinism was spot on
Thank you both for helping me see the Esau story better. Always seemed arbitrary to me. It makes much better sense now.
Yahushua Messiah be with thee,
Shalom and Agape
Two of my favorite brothers. I don’t think “nitpicking”, if that’s they say, is unwarranted. They, not all, preach and live differently than the framework they hold to. Bless you both. 🙏
Fantastic conversation! I can't believe the comment that you failed to exegete Romans 9. Was the individual present for the entire broadcast? I was here and I heard a very fine explanation of Romans 9. Is the blindness that bad?
I did an informal research looking through the writings of Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Cotton Mather and other influential Calvinists and most were reluctant to oppose American slavery based on the doctrine of predestination. Compare their writings with Free Will literature such as John Wesley and others. Some people did profit from the thought of subjecting a people group to centuries of cruelty and degradation because of Gods so called predestination and not man’s free will to choose evil
Jonathan Edwards wrote:
It is most just, exceeding just, that God should take the soul of a newborn infant and cast it onto eternal torments."
Calvinists believe in original sin, even infant damnation if not baptised, an Augustinian teaching. They're all wicked
I haven't read a lot about it, but I did read that Whitefield had been a abolitionist, and he had a school for slaves. He concluded that the school would be better served and be financially able to do its work if it did it according to the existing slave system. I'm sure that if this is so, Whitefield's opinions of slavery were corrupted by the fact thst he was now practicing it, and bby the people who could afford to support his work.
Dr. Flowers, I love how you keep the meticulous determinants' feet to the fire with your phrase "Because thatis what God has decreed they would do." But more than that, even, I love the Chessboard Analogy.
Maybe irrelevant to this discussion, but the words of a song came to mind, " to march into hell for a heavenly cause."
Pride, stubbornness and fear are formatable obstacles to truth.
I think ultimately Reformed Theology is one of the many views that doesn't even let God have free will. For example, many within it often argue that God can't know it is going to rain 2 inches at my place tomorrow, and then change that to 3. Once God knows something (and some argue He has always known it) then He can't change it. And if He has always known it -- then He never could have changed it.
Great point!
God changed His mind with Ninevah. He actually repents more than anyone in tbe bible, if you read the KJV, which is the preserved word of God because it's been around for hundreds of years.
Reformed theology is the most man exalting, man worshiping group i have ever encountered. Also when in scripture dose God make these eternal decrees?
Emilio: once again, the either-or argument when it is neither.
God has free will.
Humans have free will....because God created it in humans.
Scripture provides the evidence for both God's will and human will.
Consider what, " the image and likeness of God," means.
Is it possible God created in man SOME of God's own characteristics, i.e., free will and desire?
I agree completely with John Pipers opening. He holds Roman 9 and other "Calvinist" texts above all other Scripture and therefore overrides it. I also agree that it doesn't matter (to my belief) what he thinks
At 1:20:42 you say "In fact even the leading scholars like James White and others are still dumbfounded by the alternative interpretations..."
I spent three semesters at a reformed seminary and had to read extensively the writings of various Calvinists. On thing I realized very quickly is Calvinist authors only ever quote from other Calvinists. It's an echo chamber.
In fact, I learned that if someone is not forthcoming on their stance (for example the stealth calvinists) you can gauge with a high degree of accuracy where they are simply by looking at whom they quote.
Technically. For a Calvinist, there's no such thing as "conversion." The elect have always and forever will be...elect.
@filomscorelife4225; Yes, there are several problems with the Calvinist contention. If they are 'In Christ' before they were born, how is it they were born hating God? And, why would God effectually cause those he loves... to hate him? Or, how could they be numbered among the lost whom Christ came to 'seek and save... Did God somehow 'misplace' members of his own family?
Since the 'elect' are never in danger of eternal damnation by God's unchangeable decree, it's very difficult to answer the question; from 'what', exactly, were they ever saved? .
If the eternal destiny of the "Elect" (as they define them), is never in question, because they are either created, or chosen, (take your pick), to that end from the foundation of the world, it would be obvious God's 'elect' would never need an advocate. It is very unlikely God needs to be reminded the identity of those whom he has predestined to be with him forever. And, it is equally as obvious the 'non-elect' are certainly denied any advocacy. This doctrine begs the question:
For whom is Jesus currently 'advocating' before the Father?
Calvinism is certainly 'mysterious'
Well stated!! 👏 I'm going to save this comment.
Speaking on your differences would be encouraging to push viewers deeper into discerning their own views with scripture. I think it’d be edifying to hear two respectful men who hold scriptures with reverence and honest thought.
Or does the person know the definition of the words they read or the words they use.
One example is the use of, "limited
atonement."
If a person looked up the meaning of atonement, they could not state "limited," atonement.
To state this would be to state, limited pregnancy. A woman can be partially pregnant?
Words and terms must be defined before any debate.
Calvinists claim limited atonement because they erroneously believe that the atonement is limited to only a small elect of people predestined by God to be saved.
After listening to the entirety of Piper's sermon "The Absolute Sovereignty of God. What is Romans Nine All About?/Desiring God" I came to understand how Piper's conversion evolved. After months of careful study of scripture, Romans 9 specifically, he came to grasp God's sovereignty and the exaltation of God. The Lord spoke to him- "My sovereignty is not simply to be scrutinized, it is to be heralded. It is not grist for the mill of controversy, it is gospel for sinners who know that their only hope is the sovereign triumph of God’s grace over their rebellious will.”
Yes but i completely disagree because it’s not gods sovereignty they spruke. Sadly it’s a complete denial of Roman’s 9. If it really were an honest exposition of Romans 9 I would agree but it’s simply not the case . Read Roman’s 11 carefully, Calvinism demolished by gods decree . If you believe in gods sovereignty and his decree it excludes Calvinism as the rebellion of men
Elaine, It looks like you’re quoting God here. Maybe that’s not your intent.
Thanks for your time in equipping the saints to understand the whole counsel of God in a way that is consistent with his character of Love and Mercy rather than Controlling and Cruel.
explain: how can a sinful human being who loves his sin and who cannot or does not want anything from the true God, can a men overcome the power of satan that has blinded his understanding, how can he change his mind and see the glory of Christ if Satan has his will enslaved if he is spiritually blind and the message of the cross is foolishness to him? How can the natural man make sense in his head the message of salvation in if it has to be spiritually discerned and the flesh produces flesh? It is interesting what Paul said here: “in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
2 Corinthians 4. HOW CAN YOU OVERCOME THE POWER OF SATAN?. Remember; your mind is blinded by satan. How can you change your mind? . So Adam and Eve fail, even in perfect state.
This is what pretty much happened to John Piper:
Colossians 2:8
[8]Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Calvinism is a seed and when you willingly swallow it, it reforms a perfectly profitable Christian into a Calvinist.
That is why Piper became a Calvinist 💡
John did eat, just as Eve did eat and gave to the man, and he did eat.
Piper saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise....and he did eat and gave it to too many to count, and they did eat.
Calvinism is just a theological perspective (not too far from your own) that many faithful brothers and sisters adhere to! While you may disagree with it, I would not say this is a charitable way to portray them. Many Calvinist are some of the most fruitful Christians I know!
@@christian_par3-iu4ev- It does not seem to me that Adam and Eve immediately became . . gouls, upon incorporating an erroneous view of God (and themselves), into their "worldview". I sense a leaven like effect could be involved with any erroneous view of God (or "selves"), one might incorporate into one's "worldview". My sense is that He is warning us about just that . . in the garden account.
(and He never really stops, it seems to me)
As long as anyone has a new heart and spirit, profess Jesus as Lord, Jesus lives in them, they are a brother and sister 😊🙏🏼💯
@@christian_par3-iu4evIt is heresy to portray God as a sadistic eternal murderer with no logical reasons for doing so. You have become luke warm and you fear being attacked for doing what God requires you to do, REPROVE AND REBUKE FALSE DOCTRINE. Who cares if people get upset? A person's feelings are secondary to the truth, it's called tough love. You can start soft and ramp up as the resistance grows, but the teachings should be exposed and refuted with the sword of the Lord. The only reason that people fall for these idiotic teachings is because they have no idea why things are the way they are, chronologically speaking. Continuing to learn algebra from a drop out will never make you understand mathematics, you need a good teacher and some basic sense.
@@Jayinseasonamen
PIPER: Motive only explains behavior. It never, ever excuses behavior.
Can I give a analogy of what it is for Calvinest preaching to reach lost people in church is like.
A man is getting married in a week. He gets up in church and says I am getting married this Saturday everyone come you are all invited. But in reality he has already sent out RSVP to the people he invited and they have already committed to coming. But the people that were not invited don't know this. So the uninvited people show up to the wedding and they get turned away. Because they were not really invited . So the guy who invited everyone was lying to the people who were not really invited. Just like what the Calvinest really believes.
It seems to me that the calvinist view seems to make God a respector of persons in the fact that some are special and some are not but that is contradictory to scripture Acts 10:34. What makes these guys so much better than everyone else. By their view they can't know whether they are going to make because he that endures to the end the same shall be saved Matt 24:13
It’s very telling that without fail everyone that gives testimony of God opening there eyes to the ‘truth’ if Calvinism they were taught the doctrine by a teacher.
I heard Piper do a Q&A where he claimed all things were and are predetermined by God, even the lady in the front row with her legs crossed a certain way. He then went on to tell people that THEY needed to DO certain things. That THEY weren't seeking God enough. The THEY weren't holy enough and so on. I just couldn't believe the disconnect there. John, if all things are predetermined, then THEY are doing exactly what God predetermined them to do, and you are mucking it up!
So excited for Dr. Williams' book! Can't wait to compare his and Piper's work with one another.
*_God Bless_*
You are too nice Leighton.
Very interesting but too long. I had to break it up in 4 or 5 sessions. It would be nice to have shorter podcasts say in Part 1, Part 2, 3 and 4 etc. for busy people who can’t sit down for 2 or more hours at a time.
I’m not prepared to say that the practice of favoring a single biblical text is wrong a priori in one’s theology. However, the problem of continually atomizing texts has and can be a great problem for any biblical theology. We must read the entire canon in light of itself, respecting the literary shape of these inspired texts. The reading that places Romans 9 as the central text of theological import in Romans was ignores the rest of Romans, that it is meant to explain whether God’s promises have failed and that all creation groans for final redemption (which is on the way!) The former is very clearly stated as the intent, and the latter the point of God’s entire saving plan. Were God’s deterministic decrees the center of Paul’s theology, Romans is not the document I would expect to find. Nor are the Old or New Testaments what we would expect to find if Calvinism was true. God allows disobedience via freedom and redeems it through His own costly obedience. This is the cruciform revelation of God’s plan in Christ, and broadly speaking, the pattern of how God rescues the world. Calvinism appears to ignore this in many cases, even as much as it is concerned with (limited) atonement accounting for justification.
I really feel like Calvinism uses a lot of double speak just like INSOC. I don’t think they do it with nefarious purposes like INSOC but it’s still happening.
INSOC? What's that?
“Ingsoc” is the doublespeak ideology from Orwell’s 1984.
Has anyone here ever heard of the Zone of Proximal Development? The ZPD? Its a principle of child development (let me look it up, because I can't remember the name of the child psychologist who put this forward, although he's a favorite. Lev Vygotsky, social psychologist who was once hailed by Soviet Russia, until they understood that the kind of "social" he meant was the benefit to childen of close, nurturing family relationships. Not cool, said Stalin.) I just keep thinking of this. The ZPD is defined as the difference in what a child can do without help, and what they can do with help. 'Scaffolding" is a Vygotskyan concept, although I can't remember who coined th as t either. The point is, it IS a "thing", and I find that this particular everyday concept has a way of disappearing in these vitriolic, win at any cost arguments. It is God who works in our faith, but for crying out loud, because He's far more honest and just than we are, He doesn't do the part that that He holds us accountable for. He persuades us, undergirds ("scaffolds") our spiritual development, but does not force even the right choices on us, much less does He force us to choose wrongly. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock": this shows what it's like when we "give God permission" to act in our behalf. When we choose, it is in the context of God having asked us to choose. It's His idea, not ours. After all, Jesus didnt say "just so you'll know, I'm getting ready to knock down the door and do my sovereign will, which you cannot thwart by 'opening the door'..." He also says nowhere that God wants people to do evil, much less that He forces them to do evil.
You should change this to Pastor John: An Origin Story!
😅
such an interesting conversation!
54:24 There is a huge disconnect with them speaking of dust and molecules vs free will. Matter follows the laws of Physics that Yahweh established when He created the kosmos. They are most certainly bound in that sense. But they are not of the same kind as the human spirit. Our spirit is a unique creation, made in the image of our Creator. Comparing that unique creation to that which has no will at all is nonsensical at best. Of course there are no "rogue molecules". Molecules have no will with which to rebel.
When I was a new Christian many years ago I I met a couple of Calvinist. I rejected it because the "thumb print" of God in my spirit let me know that Calvinism was wrong.
So Piper used his misinterpretation of Romans nine to misinterpret the rest of the bible? Can you say 'confirmation bias' boys and girls?
Leighton I really learn a lot from your videos. Thank you so much. But I don’t know have you made a video about Steven J Lawson. If not do you have plan to make videos?
Yes you don't want to leave anyone out who strictly teaches the gospel and calls people to repentance and makes all their speech revolve around Jesus. And who have created colleges that call in Young People to further the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Around 13:40 JP says, "It isn't in the Bible. Not one verse teaches the self determining will of man."
There is a prophecy in Dan 11 about a king to come: "And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will." Verse 3. Verse 16 describes another king: "But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will."
Go with the Scriptures. Every. Single. Time.
You just HATE the Sovereignty of God!
(Jk)
@@lonelyguyofficial8335 Man's free will does not negate the sovereignty of God!
@@lonelyguyofficial8335can God in His sovereignty allow free will?
@@chrisking6874 A limited amount of free will? He most certainly can. And He can punish those who sin and reward those who obey.
@@lonelyguyofficial8335 If Calvinism is true, then why are you angry with anyone who doesn't believe it even though you believe they have absolutely no free will to choose whether or not to believe it?
Amen Guys!
Where can I find the information from the southern Baptist founders ministry that you mentioned?
2:10:56 Had me in tears. 😭❤
Desire and ability are not the same thing. Just because I can't physically jump to the moon doesn't mean I'm not willing to jump to the moon. Will or desire are what we want to do or not do; what we want to happen or not happen. They have nothing to do with our ability to effect change in a given situation.
The will of a person remains intact regardless of their ability to actually do this or that.
EDD is non falsifiable. I haven't seen a high Calvinist's response to this.
What is EDD?
@@lauraleeogan7523Exhaustive divine determinism
@@lauraleeogan7523 Exhaustive divine determinism.
The Calvinist god reminds me of the Islamic god Allah.
This. This is exactly why I cannot EVER call myself a Calvinist. It is too eerily similar to Islamic Doctrine.
Bingo
These remarks are so rediculous...smh. siding with an open theist and closet open theist, sad.
It cracks me up that people refer to Piper as humble. Based on what? The way that he modulates his voice? His grandiose gesticulations, flailing his arms about like a demented child? Oh, you mean the way he sent out a “never-Trump” piece to his followers just 2 weeks prior to the election yet maintains he’s loathe to undermine his calling by getting into politics?
I challenge every Calvinist to read the ENTIRE book of Romans, five times. Maybe then they would understand what the ninth chapter is about in the context of the entire book.
AMEN... read Romans without regard for Chapter & Verse... read it like the long form letter as it was written. It really helps provide 'context' which is the key to understanding
Many Charismatic /Word of Faith teachers say that you need to give God permission to act on your behalf, or to move...
Thank you both. Loved every minute. Wondering this-- is there any connection to the "elect" discussion and the belief of some that God is going to use Israel, Jerusalem, and all the jewish people as the station for the world before during or after the millenium? In other words "chosen people =chosen nation= Israel" ??? Calvanism effects more things then just salvation.
Thank you both for your work fighting for the truth of God's true love for ALL people . Calvanism has held some people especially those who already have experienced rejection from childhood etc. from coming to the Lord. This wrong theology of Calvanism is poison.
How can you say that John Piper is a good pastor? You do a good job at pointing out how terrible and heretical Calvinism is and then say someone that is a hyper Calvinist is a good pastor? That blows my mind.
What is your personal assessment of calvinism? Is it false doctrine or not?
I dont remember which video it was where Leighton talked about a Provisionist debating James White and showing that James did not do any homework. I am trying to find that video but I dont kow what to search. Can anyone help?
Thank you for all of your educating videos.
I have come across various truths, it seems God is not looking to have anything truly inspiring over evidence for scripture to become world wide. Far to many people jump on the bandwagon of popularity. That will not save them.
I am going to finish watching but I want to post this now, when you open the video up by stopping it 3 seconds in and mocking it, it doesn’t look very good.
Calvin makes God and Satan equal. Both causing sin to glorify themselves. And if God caused Lucifer to sin and fall from heaven, why then is God Satans enemy? For Satan is only emulating God, and glorifying Him by causing sin just like God? Emulation is the highest complement one could receive. Follow Calvinism out to its logical conclusion, and you will see the embarrassing irrationalism of it all!
This comment made me remember something in the bible where Paul says people were saying 'Well then our sin further shows God's glory more, so its not a bad thing' and Paul wrote 'Of course not!' For if sin glorifies God, Satan would be the greatest glorifier then..
Spot on!
You may like and respect Piper but the bible says he's accursed. In case we don't know what accurssd means:
ACCURS'ED, pp. or a.
1. Doomed to destruction or misery:
2. Separated from the faithful; cast out of the church; excommunicated.
3. Worthy of the curse; detestable; execrable.
Keep from the accursed thing. Josh. 6.
Hence,
4. Wicked; malignant in the extreme.
The Bible says John Piper is accursed? I don't remember reading that.
@@AnHebrewChild yes it does! Anyone who has a false gospel is accursed, and PIPER is by teaching TULIP.
Galatians 1:8-9 KJV - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If ANY MAN preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
What about the fact that Esau was saved according to Genesis 33?
Esau is not a reprobate like Calvinists interpret Roman 9!
That should be a red flag if there ever was one.
There goes unconditional election in Romans 9!
Hebrews calls Esau godless. I too once assumed Esau was saved because he seemed nice in Gen 33, but Hebrews is pretty clear on it. It calls him a godless person and says that no congregation should allow someone like him in.
As far as 'giving God permission' to do things in my life, the 'word of faith' movement and their 'little gods' teaching has much of that in it. They talk a lot about giving God the 'legal rights' to act. And of course they have bumped Jesus out as the 'middleman' ya no longer pray thru, and now you, as a god, can speak directly to things yourself like God spoke the universe into existence. So, yeah, its out there. As many christians are pouring out the backdoors of that movement disillusioned, as are coming in the front doors!
Calvinists seem to be missing the 'middle theology' that scripture teaches, where we trust totally in God to work & convict, and draw, and save! All we do is surrender! Salvation is of God alone, yes! Receiving Him is not a work! And we can reject. Scripture says people rejected. Jesus said "but you would not" come to Me. Lord help them. This is good! ✌️
Please interview Steve Gregg.
2:09:55 these poor people nearly gave up on God altogether because of these monsters and YOU still call the Calvinists brothers. Zero consistency. They ought to be treated as heathen. (Matt 18:15-17)
John Piper is a wolf in sheep's clothing. One of the most dangerous.
Does Leighton and Waren believe in despensation thelogy?
What’s a 7 point Calvinist? What are the other 2 points?
I believe they are double-predestination and best-possible-world
I find with calvinism God and Satan seem to blend into 1.
That is very much the case with actual Calvinism, which is spewed by false teachers like Piper and MacArthur and by many "internet Calvinists", who affirm the actual teachings of Calvin and his successor, Theodore Beza. They more or less dress Satan up in a "god suit", call him "the God of the Bible" and worship him. There are also, however, many "Calvinists" who are just Christians who are ignorant of what "Calvinism" actually means and implies and take the label of "Calvinism" or one of its subgroups like "Presbyterian" out of old traditions or family connections. These are usually oblivious to things like "TULIP" and its evils and simply follow Biblical teachings instead. I've encountered many who fall into each of these groups. Most of the latter group aren't the type to have much interest in UA-cam or other such things, so you don't run into them online nearly as often as the other kind.
The devil would just be a poor helpless innocent creature if Calvinism was true. And we definitely know he's not.
I'm still disentangling.
I will what I will because God created desire in humans and placed no limits on human desires.
God DID NOT create evil. He created humans with the freedom to pursue God ordained desires or other desires.
How did Adam and Eve chose Satan, if not created by God with the ability to chose. And then their offspring, Cain and Abel, "after the fall," acting freely which desire they will choose.
Adam and Eve fell because God decreed they should.
@@JD10503 Provide scripture eidence in Genesis, that God decreed Adam and Eve to "fall."
Such an important occurrence, and yet God's word failed to mention it?
It happened, and that's enough for me. Nothing happens without God having decreed it, rendering fixed and unchangeable.
@@JD10503 No evidence in scripture, but you are free to believe made up teachings.
@@JD10503
Give the verse, or be quiet about God's actions. You speak from your own wisdom, not God's word.
It's as bad as putting words into God's mouth without evidence, it's false witnessing.
There are things, by my design I cannot determine. I cannot flap my arms and fly.
No disrespect to Piper and others but their thinking is quite undeveloped and completely illogical.While there are issues that are either-or, but other things that are not either-or.
False dichotomies aboound.
From Jesus to John Calvin, with all the Church Fathers and writings.
Do they show a single person who could be pointed out as a Calvinist?
@@bobbyadkins6983 Before John Calvin.
Arguably Augustine
He wanted to feel special because he was bullied as a child.
Unbelievers can believe or not. Believers can obey or not. Limited free will!!!
Not sure where i stand ...3.5 points or what ...but find it hard to listen to Piper....maybe its been ordained.
I have a lot of trouble understanding what John Piper is saying. Whenever he's asked a question, he doesn't just give a straightforward answer. No, he wiggles and weaves all around, almost puts me to sleep with that soft voice of his, and EVERY SINGLE TIME I'm left wondering what his answer actually was. I understand Leighton, I understand David Jeremiah, Jack Hibbs, and almost every other evangelistic pastor perfectly well, but Calvinist talk is like a different language.
4.5 of the 5 points of Calvinism are heresy, the .5 is predestination which is Biblical, but not concerning salvation. The part that is predestination is what the born again Christian becomes, he is conformed into the IMAGE OF HIS SON. The Bible is about restoration, and we are restored because Adam lost the image.
Adam is THEE ONLY HUMAN that was created in God's image. Everyone else was born in Adam's fallen image, read Genesis ch5:3 below.
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth;
This is why Jesus Christ is called the last Adam, AND, the first fruits.
Don't let anyone tell you that according to the "originals" or the "Hebrew" or "Greek" says, bla bla bla. That is the tell tale sign that you are being lied to by a person that thinks they are the final authority, not the Bible. There are NO originals anywhere on planet earth, and the men that compiled the manuscripts of the King James Bible version did so under the power of a king, during the point of church history that kept the word of God.
Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
@@drjlrustPiper may be a nice guy, I don't know, but he is a Bible moron as are MacArthur, Sproul, 95% of popular preachers.
Anyone can come to Jesus (John 3:16) calvanists believe only those God selects rest are ____ out of luck. Nothing can be done. Man can do nothing to change his eternal fate.
Very high & mighty attitudes, just my take on attitudes.
WHY DID THE CALVINIST CROSS THE ROAD?
1) because GOD made him do it. otherwise he would continue hanging out on the basement sofa playing video games
your answer:
2)
3)
4)
I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that those Calvinistic people I have encountered, forcefully assert and belittle to make their point. (Forgive me for the sarcasm, as Paul would say, I’m speaking like a madman.) collections of scripture to make points got us the prosperity gospel, because a collection twists the Word. Look at the whole Word for yourself!
Jesus told us we would know people by the fruit of their lives. Beware of those who have knowledge, which in itself, isn’t a fruit. Those who know Jesus will strive to be gentle and lowly, like He reminds us is His heart.
Calling people like John Piper a brother isn't helping him or anyone else, except the devil. He needs someone to let him know he's lost and on his way to Hell and leading others with him. Calling him a good pastor is very disturbing and seems to contradict everything you have said about Calvinism.
2:23:32 😂😂😂😂😂
21:12 I don’t think that’s what he means by “ultimately self-determining.” That you can do whatever you want, but that you ultimately govern your own will. That You’re the ultimate and sufficient cause of all you do. If you don’t agree with that, then welcome back to Calvinism.
John Piper:
"What I mean by ultimate self-determination is that no power outside of man himself has ultimate or decisive control over what a man chooses, at least not when he is acting as a moral agent who must give an account to God. This excludes other people, influences, and God himself."
I agree with this definition. And I believe it to be a great gift of God to mankind. This gift makes love possible. This gift makes God truly sovereign.
@@PB4U I think that definition of free will makes man God.
God determines not to intervene with our constant evil choices until He decides to in His mercy.
Chapter and verse.
@@bayesianhulk
All of Psalms 105 describing what God does to corporate and individuals
@@sikeajax No. That's describing God working his plan of redemption for Israel.
@@bayesianhulk in all this where is the focus on Joseph choosing to leave or stay in prison , the king’s choice to raise Joseph, Eygpt choice to hate Israel ? Moses choice to save them ? Rather the psalmist focus is entirely on God influencing their corporate and individuals decisions for His own glory in His time and in His way.. intervening to rescue His chosen people using his chosen vessels for his glory. And NOT because any of them chose wisely. So thePsalmist focus should also be our emphasis and focus.
@@sikeajax God uses people's free choices to accomplish His purposes.
MeAnS, iTs aLl AbOuT mEaNs.
Anytime you talk about evil, you need to explain what kind of evil you are talking about.
Come on John Piper viewed Roman 9 as it is, a ♠️ is a ♠️, you don’t like it ! God bless you! 🙏🙏🙏
Can't join Ole Neville Goddard is best and free truth.
John Piper is a humble man, open mind than most of the Calvinists, he ponder than many things more than you guys, you are totally humanistic!🙏🙏🙏
Never let a person's seemingly humility deceive you.
Piper????? I give him permission???? Borders on blasphemy. Watch it Piper!!!!!
3 hours? 😂😂😂
You Born Again? John 3:3
John Piper is so deceived he has become an eloquent deceiver. He is difficult to listen to.
This is a different topic that has been weighing on my heart, and at this point I truly need some help if anyone has it to offer.
I have a friend, a good childhood friend that I care for, who is a feminist. Not an annoying, in-your-face type, but still, she very much dislikes the patriarchy.
Two things about her; as you can probably guess, she's not a Christian, and she's smart, very smart, and thinks deeply about topics, which is probably why we are friends despite our differences. (Not the smart part, just that both of us liking to think through things. 😁)
And like the patriarchy, she hates God, absolutely despises Him, and views Him as, in her own words, a "sexist pig."
Now you may think it's because she hasn't read the Bible, but that is not the case. She has in fact read it back to front, and that is what has convinced her He is sexist.
Here's the tricky part about her, she is able to take one's argument against her, and turn it around so that not only does the person's argument seem wrong, but that HER point makes sense.
It doesn't automatically make her right, of course, but that's the kind of person she is.
She has a problem with the standard verses feminists hate, you know which ones, and like I said, can turn any verse into a woman-hating text.
Perfect example - I've used "so what about when God says men are to give up their lives for their wives? We are literally to love our wives so much that we put them before ourselves?"
Her response? "Well, I should say so, considering he's getting a slave in all but name. No matter what, no matter how right or wrong he is, he gets full unilateral, God-ordained final say on all decisions. Period. While the wife just has to silently follow in the background wherever he goes and on whatever decision is made. And she has a problem with it? She has a suggestion of how to do it better or differently? Well too bad, he's the husband, so his decision is the only thing that truly holds weight."
And she is like that for all things, anything you can think to say, she has a point that, honestly, isn't entirely invalid. Why DOES God only deem men's voices good enough to speak from the pulpit? Why DOES the man get to make the final decision as if there aren't two people making a decision instead of just one? Why IS the woman, in the order of the family, beneath the man if they are equal? The whole point of submission is just that, being beneath another who is above you.
I know about two becoming one flesh and how the husband and wife represent Christ and the church, both of which I've explained and both have only driven her further to believe God is sexist.
Now here's the interesting part. I asked her how or what God would have to be or change to not be sexist. You would think her answer would be to reverse the roles, right? Well, no. Instead, she said "Simple. Have both the man and the woman be on the same equal footing of the order of family. True equals, none of this equal-but-not-really equal where one is actually above the other in the order. The man is not above the woman, and the woman is not above the man. And when the children become of age they create their own families to which the man and woman are on the same step of order."
I said "ok, who leads?" She said "both. They look at each situation and, with their unique viewpoints decide how to deal with each scenario instead of just the man getting final decision every single time! If the man has the better outcome, they do that. If the woman, then do it that way."
I said "how does that not lead to selfishness if both can decide what they should do equally?" She said, "humility and self-control." I said "those things are how God wants it now and only come from God." And, you guessed it, her answer was "yes, but in my scenario, the two are true equals and have equal say in a decision, rather than the fake equality that currently exists."
Finally, I said "ok. So what if they can't come to a decision and both decisions are equally right?" She said "there are a couple of options. One could be that they look for a third scenario that is better than either of their choices. Another is it depends on each couple to decide what to do in such a situation."
I could keep going, but you get the idea. As long as men are leaders and get the credit and all that goes with that, she believes God is sexist and created women inferiorly to men and views them as lesser. So, if anyone could help me, it would be most appreciated. I really care about her and want to help if possible.
P.S. If all you're going to say is something like "Who are you, o man?" as a response, don't. You won't help and will just push her away and make her hate God even more than she already does.
I found help with this by listening to R C Sproul.
@@julianromero1326 I know he was friends with John MacArthur, and considering that MacArthur did an hour and a half long sermon that boiled down to telling women to shut up in the church, I doubt he'd be helpful.
She is me pre Salvation. Maybe I can help. But I want to make a careful reply rather than just winging it in in the moment. So I will reply again tomorrow. Trust me when I tell you the battle I had over this after I got saved even. Most Christians have a distorted view I believe. It is a large topic, and reformed especially, I believe, very often, have a warped view, that is not so Biblical as it seems.
@@greyciousme Thank you, appreciate it! I'm curious to hear what you have to say, especially since I'm assuming you're female. Apologies if you're not, either way I'm male but as I said I relate to her and can see where she's coming from. I grew up with an amazing mother who raised me while my dad abandoned us. And to hear God not only wanted her as nothing more than the position of helper, but even worse to submit to him and be beneath him?!
While He is God, it's one of the things I admittedly struggle with as well to not be both insulted and disgusted by.
Seriously; though r c Sproul was friends with MacArthur he was 180 degrees diff than he on this subject and a gentleman also.
Piper boldly teaches a doctrine of demons, a false gospel.