I'm positive the artist would be thrilled to see you say that! But in this case, as good sir Jerry pointed out, it's an original character I commissioned from an artist for some music stuff.
I only just discovered your content and my god it's so inspiring and interesting to look at. I main Ganon and there's been plenty of times where I feel stuck or plateau'd but this kind of stuff has pushed me to learn more with the character rather than just moving to Bowser (Which funnily enough, was who I played *before* I went back to Ganon.)
Its like the same paradox for Ridley's Skewer. Widely agreed to be his most useless and least practical moves ( other than dair ). While at the same time its treated as though any buffs at all would make it utterly game breaking. I think Ganon fits into that as well with his moves. If you do successfully get a discussion where its agreed that Ganon should be buffed, then it begins to fall apart again when its asked what moves should then be buffed. "Well if you buff this move then its going to be way too strong!" Its not just Ganon as a whole, but even individual aspects of him that get caught in paradox. The only way to break through that point is to drill into very detailed discussion into nuanced points of his strengths and shortcomings and make very specific suggestions which are beyond the appreciation of most. So wherever that sort of discussion might happen, it doesn’t get broadcast very far. The other point that I feel makes it difficult is another issue of different scopes, and this is one where I feel it is much more widely appreciated. If it were only a matter of balancing the game within the highest levels of tournament play it would become a lot easier. But there’s all sorts of assortments of skill, as well as the whole online world. And Ganon is one of those characters where changes made to improve his high level performance could disproportionately increase his less lacking lower level performance. And that scares people.
Now there's a name I haven't seen in ages. Nice to see you, Chain! Well said, and to that, people tend to, indeed, focus on isolated, short-term aspects of characters rather than how the character functions as a system, so discussions of Ganon getting buffed naturally make people think of buffs to KO power. Needless to say, lots of things minor changes that could be made to Ganon that'd not make him any "scarier" so to speak, but would dramatically increase his long-term viability.
It has certainly been a while :) Thanks for being such a good part of the community back in Brawl and NS2 back in the day, you really helped make that a great place to be. Its been nice seeing your name pop up every so often when people are talking about Ganon. What do you think of the concept of characters being almost bad by design? There's an argument to be had that having a degree diversity of better and worse characters makes the game more fun and interesting. Certainly it sometimes feel like Mac and Ganon are purposefully kept from being better. Personally I feel its more to do with the Devs valuing diversity in character archetype. Some of the issues with the paradox could be sidestepped by tweaking the characters archetype. But it seems to me as though they value maintaining archetypes, even when they're extreme, more than balance. Certainly with such a huge cast, I can see the importance of maintaining that. I'm curious how you feel about archetype vs balance as somebody who's been committed to Ganon for such a long time.
Added shield stun to his attacks relative to their strength, give him kill throws (he's heavy and doesn't make sense) his old frame 6 up air was perfect nerfing it down to 7 made a big difference for him since it's harder to break combos. And if they're going to increase a moves speeds, I'd prefer an up b buff. His OOS is what really hurts him long term. He still doesn't have any safe moves, but I could do without.
I mean I definitely wanna see ganon get buffed but if they did buff him then they’re probably gonna make his warlock punch like 2 frames faster or some dumb shit like that Btw these videos are great! The scripts are always very elegantly written and I also like the little analogies and visuals and stuff. Great work!
Little Mac's KO Punch is the real Doriyah; you can't change my mind. Great video btw Verm! Very erudite perspective on tier placement and what makes a character good or bad. These thinkpieces may be more helpful to people than you realize ;)
@@brandondennis5166 grappler is used more as a metaphor in this since. Used in different context if you will. Because of how grapplers usually end up in fighters tier lists. You are correct tho
Smash community hates this but they’re utterly full of shit: ganon has a fear factor that is omega level, unparalleled among the cast. Even at top play, among top players, nerves are real and subtle factors like fear and anxiety absolutely influence play. Y’all “professional” players ain’t special for shit, you’re human like the rest of us lol. That is what makes people terrified of Ganon being more potent. They wouldn’t be able to handwave away anymore the idea that a ganon player legitimately beat them by getting into their head and making them flinch. That’s why the idea of buffing him makes the community tremble and handwring all in unison (something almost nothing else does). The fear. You can smell it. It’s delicious.
Hungrybox: *screams at everything and adds a clickbait title*: 400k subs Verma: *creates some the most thoughtful and insightful smash content on the internet*: under 10k subs Save me from this suffering
This video is amazing. I've been pondering this idea for a while now, and never understood the paradox of Ganon being considered one of the worst characters in the game yet also clearly being feared by a lot of players. You really hit the nail on the head with the examples of particles vs waves and how it applies to Ganon's long-term viability! Also, how do you think Ganon could be buffed without making him busted?
In my opinion, yes. The main way to buff Ganon now is to make him more consistent, however it is Ganon's lack of consistency that makes him hype. Think of Nairo vs Light. The reason why Nairo's comeback against Light is seen as such a brilliant moment is because he picked Ganon, and Ganon is extremely inconsistent, so to see Nairo pull off this feat with an inconsistent character was extremely rewarding. If Ganon were more consistent, he doesn't have much else that makes him hype.
@@staticchimera44 I feel the same way to be honest, but I haven't really heard anyone who disagreed, so I was wondering if there were any counterpoints.
Basically, he's one of those characters where you won't win the majority of matches at the top level, but if you do win then the opponent probably got punished for something way harder than they deserved to. I think he does need a buff, namely his speed and/or recovery. But at the same time he would need to have his power toned down. Similar to what they did with Ike and Pokemon Trainer where they buffed certain things but nerfed others. That's the only way that they could make him consistent enough to be a high tier without making him busted.
@@cristianrivas2870 I'm gonna be honest, that was a polite way of saying that the Ganon player didn't earn the win. (No offense Verman). The point is that he needs a bit of a rework, not just a buff.
@@Ryan-uq7kj Ganon does earn the wins he get(online doesn't count for this), if you play correct against Ganon is so hard for him to win in competitive(I'm not a Ganon player btw). However I agree with the part that Ganon would need a rework to get some kind of a reasonable buff without becoming busted.
Ganon definitely does not need buffs. His side-b is too strong and not easy to tech. Just know that if you're facing a good Ganon, don't get-up attack. It ain't gonna work and you're just going to get regrabbed. Sincerely, a Ganon player that loves punishing get-up attacks.
Wish they would buff his mobility and tone down his smash attacks power. Maybe buff fair startup and safety but nerf power? And would love to see dthrow become a real combo throw at a large percent range
This is something I'd like as well. I do like the fact that his insane kill power makes people really nervous, but I'd trade doriyah for guaranteed jab after all variations of flame choke
@@Vermanubis totally agree, still think that he could have his kill power toned down and keep insane kill power. Would also be a good buff if they gave him a realistic oos since the way ganon loses is when he can’t play the game, and having a passable oos makes it harder to pressure him into paralysis for free.
Most smash players: Is Ganondorf a bottom tier?
This channel: Is Ganondorf a particle or a wave?
Ganon doesn’t beat characters. Ganon beat players.
It's true, and yet another interesting Ganon topic I could (but won't to spare everyone the boredom) go into for a while!
Verm I consider you to be a genuine genius and a very wise man.
😍
NOBODY PANIC! VERM JUST UPLOADED, I REPEAT, VERM UPLOADED!
Let’s go, I’ve been waiting patiently and you delivered!
Is that a Miura tribute? Good man.
@@jerryjohnson736 Thanks for the correction!
I'm positive the artist would be thrilled to see you say that! But in this case, as good sir Jerry pointed out, it's an original character I commissioned from an artist for some music stuff.
I only just discovered your content and my god it's so inspiring and interesting to look at. I main Ganon and there's been plenty of times where I feel stuck or plateau'd but this kind of stuff has pushed me to learn more with the character rather than just moving to Bowser (Which funnily enough, was who I played *before* I went back to Ganon.)
Its like the same paradox for Ridley's Skewer.
Widely agreed to be his most useless and least practical moves ( other than dair ).
While at the same time its treated as though any buffs at all would make it utterly game breaking.
I think Ganon fits into that as well with his moves. If you do successfully get a discussion where its agreed that Ganon should be buffed, then it begins to fall apart again when its asked what moves should then be buffed.
"Well if you buff this move then its going to be way too strong!"
Its not just Ganon as a whole, but even individual aspects of him that get caught in paradox.
The only way to break through that point is to drill into very detailed discussion into nuanced points of his strengths and shortcomings and make very specific suggestions which are beyond the appreciation of most. So wherever that sort of discussion might happen, it doesn’t get broadcast very far.
The other point that I feel makes it difficult is another issue of different scopes, and this is one where I feel it is much more widely appreciated.
If it were only a matter of balancing the game within the highest levels of tournament play it would become a lot easier. But there’s all sorts of assortments of skill, as well as the whole online world.
And Ganon is one of those characters where changes made to improve his high level performance could disproportionately increase his less lacking lower level performance. And that scares people.
Now there's a name I haven't seen in ages. Nice to see you, Chain!
Well said, and to that, people tend to, indeed, focus on isolated, short-term aspects of characters rather than how the character functions as a system, so discussions of Ganon getting buffed naturally make people think of buffs to KO power. Needless to say, lots of things minor changes that could be made to Ganon that'd not make him any "scarier" so to speak, but would dramatically increase his long-term viability.
It has certainly been a while :)
Thanks for being such a good part of the community back in Brawl and NS2 back in the day, you really helped make that a great place to be.
Its been nice seeing your name pop up every so often when people are talking about Ganon.
What do you think of the concept of characters being almost bad by design?
There's an argument to be had that having a degree diversity of better and worse characters makes the game more fun and interesting.
Certainly it sometimes feel like Mac and Ganon are purposefully kept from being better.
Personally I feel its more to do with the Devs valuing diversity in character archetype. Some of the issues with the paradox could be sidestepped by tweaking the characters archetype. But it seems to me as though they value maintaining archetypes, even when they're extreme, more than balance. Certainly with such a huge cast, I can see the importance of maintaining that. I'm curious how you feel about archetype vs balance as somebody who's been committed to Ganon for such a long time.
Added shield stun to his attacks relative to their strength, give him kill throws (he's heavy and doesn't make sense) his old frame 6 up air was perfect nerfing it down to 7 made a big difference for him since it's harder to break combos. And if they're going to increase a moves speeds, I'd prefer an up b buff. His OOS is what really hurts him long term. He still doesn't have any safe moves, but I could do without.
So excited for the sequel, A Big Toe Paradox.
I mean I definitely wanna see ganon get buffed but if they did buff him then they’re probably gonna make his warlock punch like 2 frames faster or some dumb shit like that
Btw these videos are great! The scripts are always very elegantly written and I also like the little analogies and visuals and stuff. Great work!
* Dark dive final hit attack deals slightly more shield damage*
@@israelrocha1831 how about absolutely nothing lmao
Little Mac's KO Punch is the real Doriyah; you can't change my mind.
Great video btw Verm! Very erudite perspective on tier placement and what makes a character good or bad. These thinkpieces may be more helpful to people than you realize ;)
Man Ganon is like the grappler of smash. In the since that is presented in the video.
I mean, Smash has DK & Incineroar, both of whom are actual grapplers.
@@brandondennis5166 grappler is used more as a metaphor in this since. Used in different context if you will. Because of how grapplers usually end up in fighters tier lists. You are correct tho
Smash community hates this but they’re utterly full of shit: ganon has a fear factor that is omega level, unparalleled among the cast. Even at top play, among top players, nerves are real and subtle factors like fear and anxiety absolutely influence play. Y’all “professional” players ain’t special for shit, you’re human like the rest of us lol. That is what makes people terrified of Ganon being more potent. They wouldn’t be able to handwave away anymore the idea that a ganon player legitimately beat them by getting into their head and making them flinch. That’s why the idea of buffing him makes the community tremble and handwring all in unison (something almost nothing else does).
The fear. You can smell it. It’s delicious.
Congrats on 10k verm
holy fuck i want to see you perform in another fighting game your interpretations of them are always something to admire!
Thank you, Sam! Maybe one of these days when I'm in a more comfortable spot with my current ambitions. 👍
I didn't actually think you'd make "The Problem With Ganondorf" but I'm here for it
I want Ganon buffed.
People: is ganondorf high or low tier
Me: y e s
i've been wondering about this topic for a long time, very nice analysis 👍
Hungrybox: *screams at everything and adds a clickbait title*: 400k subs
Verma: *creates some the most thoughtful and insightful smash content on the internet*: under 10k subs
Save me from this suffering
I wish they would add real Ganondorf to the game
🎩
Yes Dorky, I too would like them to put me in the game
Damn this is deep, great points man
This video is amazing. I've been pondering this idea for a while now, and never understood the paradox of Ganon being considered one of the worst characters in the game yet also clearly being feared by a lot of players. You really hit the nail on the head with the examples of particles vs waves and how it applies to Ganon's long-term viability! Also, how do you think Ganon could be buffed without making him busted?
Hey Verm!
JNGO here. Very well spoken. You speak the truth!
Where my dude Verm at?
Ganon deserves buffs
When I watch your videos I learn more about our lively existence than smash
My man verm with the words of wisdom
I’m gonna go to my first tournament soon and I’m really nervous. Do you have any advice?
Fr ganondorf was so good that they needed to nerf him and there scared to buff him
Love your videos btw
Verm the wise
Yoooo he’s back with another one 🔥
Would buffing Ganon make him less hype? Just wanna hear your thoughts.
In my opinion, yes. The main way to buff Ganon now is to make him more consistent, however it is Ganon's lack of consistency that makes him hype. Think of Nairo vs Light. The reason why Nairo's comeback against Light is seen as such a brilliant moment is because he picked Ganon, and Ganon is extremely inconsistent, so to see Nairo pull off this feat with an inconsistent character was extremely rewarding. If Ganon were more consistent, he doesn't have much else that makes him hype.
@@staticchimera44 I feel the same way to be honest, but I haven't really heard anyone who disagreed, so I was wondering if there were any counterpoints.
Buff the king
I think your webcam is broken
Commenting for the algorithm
Cyclops rabbits
Another great example of the paradox: Ridley.
I think people just forgot about Ridley tbh
Basically, he's one of those characters where you won't win the majority of matches at the top level, but if you do win then the opponent probably got punished for something way harder than they deserved to.
I think he does need a buff, namely his speed and/or recovery. But at the same time he would need to have his power toned down. Similar to what they did with Ike and Pokemon Trainer where they buffed certain things but nerfed others. That's the only way that they could make him consistent enough to be a high tier without making him busted.
As slow and unsafe as Ganon is, the opponent deserved the punish he got
@@cristianrivas2870 I'm gonna be honest, that was a polite way of saying that the Ganon player didn't earn the win. (No offense Verman).
The point is that he needs a bit of a rework, not just a buff.
@@Ryan-uq7kj Ganon does earn the wins he get(online doesn't count for this), if you play correct against Ganon is so hard for him to win in competitive(I'm not a Ganon player btw). However I agree with the part that Ganon would need a rework to get some kind of a reasonable buff without becoming busted.
I ran into you on elite the other day. You wrecked my link 😭
I always rack up a lot of percent on my opponent because i have a hard time confirming kills. How do i go about fixing this?
6:05 Lol
Ganon definitely does not need buffs. His side-b is too strong and not easy to tech. Just know that if you're facing a good Ganon, don't get-up attack. It ain't gonna work and you're just going to get regrabbed. Sincerely, a Ganon player that loves punishing get-up attacks.
Great Video, did a good job explaining something I knew, but didn't know was actually quantifiable, if that makes sense?
Wish they would buff his mobility and tone down his smash attacks power. Maybe buff fair startup and safety but nerf power? And would love to see dthrow become a real combo throw at a large percent range
This is something I'd like as well. I do like the fact that his insane kill power makes people really nervous, but I'd trade doriyah for guaranteed jab after all variations of flame choke
@@Vermanubis totally agree, still think that he could have his kill power toned down and keep insane kill power. Would also be a good buff if they gave him a realistic oos since the way ganon loses is when he can’t play the game, and having a passable oos makes it harder to pressure him into paralysis for free.
algorithm comment
Verm video :))