Prof. John M. MacKenzie - Britain Does Not Owe Reparations
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The motion: This house believes Britain owes reparations to her former colonies.
ABOUT THE OXFORD UNION SOCIETY: The Union is the world's most prestigious debating society, with an unparalleled reputation for bringing international guests and speakers to Oxford. It has been established for 189 years, aiming to promote debate and discussion not just in Oxford University, but across the globe.
Desmond Tutu : "When white man came to Africa, he had the Bible, we had the diamonds. Now he has the diamonds, we Africans have the Bible."
True, even robbers will be caught on cams, theives like brits wont be found ever!
You nailled it 🤣
ha-ha, thank you for teaching me that!
Well it was the stupidity of your ancestors to fall for their deception.You must respect and learn from their incredible ability to manipulate simpletons in order to profit of off them.There are two kinds of people in this world the ones who get manipulated and the ones who do manipulate,the latter would indubitably be the one who steals the cake.
Its actually land
Bengali did not commit any violence against Dundee like in the case of England and India
yes bengali did not break there thumbs , machinery etc or did not asked them to pay tariffs.
Exactly
When you can't convince them, confuse them😂.
If both were not possible, just blabber something they don't like to listen.
🤣🤣
🤣🤭
Poor Prof. He's struggling to score a point after Dr Tharoor's speech.
He doesn't even know how to speak confidently. He shivered thousand times.
He is a shivering poor thief from a country of bigger thieves
@Blaine Brown its the truth mate, not cringe
@Blaine Brown do you need burnol you thief😂
@Amarjeet yadav they are burning 🤣🤣🤣
Does anyone here know how to give a cyber-slap?
A cyberslap 😂😂 LOL
lmao 😂
Epic !
@@user-qv1wt1zj4n yo malayalee
Wtf dude 🤣🤣
Shashi Tharoor's Oxford Union speech on 28 May 2015 was in favour of the motion, "This house believes Britain owes reparations to her former colonies". Shashi Tharoor was the seventh speaker on his team and was allotted eight minutes to speak. In the end, Tharoor's side won the debate with 185 votes to 56. From wekipedia
BRITISH CRIMES IN INDIA.
( my response to dr Shashi Tharoor).
----------------------------------------
1-By conquering all of India, Britain ended an age-old rivalry, conflicts & bloodshed between Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs & Marathas, and united them into one nation and made them all feel proud to be Indian.
2-saved millions of lives of widows by abolishing the centuries-old practice of Sati.
3- saved millions of lives by abolishing 1000s of years old practice of female infanticide in which the baby girls would be buried alive by parents to avoid paying dowry.
4- stopped Indians from butchering one another in the name of religion and caste.
5- promoted education and pulled Indians out of the dark ages and introduced them to the age of science and discovery.
6- built roads, bridges, schools and railway tracks and govt buildings like the parliament house and the president house.
7- introduced Indians to sewers, water closets and running water. Indians had been going to the jungle for the call of nature for 1000s of years.
8- gave the gift of the English language that is helping the subcontinent to learn science.
9- gave Indians a single currency.
10-protected the lives of minorities.
11- gave security and equal opportunity to all Indians.
12-stopped discrimination and racism based on religion or caste.
13- civilised Indians and taught them to respect and abide by the rule of law.
14- built army and police for the entire country.
15- introduced democracy in India and taught Indians the importance of secular and democratic values.
16- gave all Indians eq
Ofc he had to win coz the dude in this video is fighting the already lost war.
Shows how woke Oxford is. If they feel obligated, then let them pay.
History is full of injustice, it can't all be sorted out and nor should it be
@@vatsal7640 where i found this ?
@@vvwalker7261 oh god, u just read my mind…. That’s how woke the whole world is…. This dude speaks of hard truth… if Britain must owe something to India then it owes to almost all the countries in the world and every country would be asking for reparations and then what Britain go bankrupt??
Sun never set on British Empire because god couldn't trust British in dark lol 😂
Shashi Tharoor.
What about the mongol empire? and the Ottoman Empire? Are they also gonna pay reparations?
@@mewtew8006 Good for you, they are no more (Thanks to YOUR FOREFATHERS).
Aakash Gupta what do you mean
@@mewtew8006 well they never took 45 trillion USD from India
Prof. John M. MacKenzie, you failed to even convince your colleagues, let go of others..
karan chaudhary I know who he is
@@lewisgaming1399 ninte maamante mon aahno
haha true 😂
NOT because they examined the arguments, but because his colleagues are raving leftists who can't see past their own ideological blinkers.
this guy was literally shivering at times.
What about the mongol empire? and the Ottoman Empire? Are they also gonna pay reparations?
@@atharvapaturkar5102 You got something else to say buddy? Or you're just gonna spam every comment thread with this stupid debate about mongols?
Paul Wember
What did Britain do that other countries haven’t done may I ask?
Because he, more than anyone in that room, was aware of the extreme weakness of his arguments
@@mewtew8006 Killing innocent people, coming in the county with the promise of trade and then backstabbing the welcoming country, laying their dirty and vulgar eyes on our women, taking our lands and grains without thinking of the cultivator and his family, forcefully recruiting Indians to fight the British wars, treating us like slaves, destroying our economy to become rich and powerful, enjoymf the deaths, torturing, destroying our industries, taking our valuable resources, takin our gems and wealth and most importantly not paying the billions and billions of debt Britain owes us till date. This is the uniqueness of Britain that cannot be surpassed by any other country.
Bengal owing to Dundee is one of the most lame explanation I have ever heard. No wonder everybody was silent.
Rahul Singh yes, indeed. His point is null. Unlike the British, Bengal did not impose undue taxes and tarrifs on Dundee, did not go to Dundee to beat the people there. If what he says is true, it looks Dundee went out of business by natural market forces and not by the forcing of Bengal.
***** By his logic China should owe reparations to the US for wiping out their manufacturing ... on second thought it should owe reparations to the whole world ... It is known as a Masked Man line of argumentation ... I think Dr Shashi Tharoor did a great job to list down facts that clearly highlight why this substitution of UK with Bengal is not valid. But unfortunately, he did not get a chance to address this directly.
***** Not just that; but let us assume for a moment that India DOES owe reparations to Dundee, then those reparations to Dundee will be far outweighed and nullified by the moral debt to be paid by Britain to India. He's just created a straw man.
+Dylan James we would have been in a more better position both in terms of development and economic progress than of now. Our India does progress with time in each and and every aspect including civilised culture. "Looting" the other country for the sake of your economic benefit and then giving these stupid excuses does shows state of your mind which is still disturbed!
@Rahul Singh aah that is nothing. One of the Britishers on the same topic in a debate said that India has to be grateful to the Britishers/East India company since they created the concept of "companies" (despite loot and murder for 400 yrs) and Indians are going to companies everyday 9 to 5. LOL. When they bullshit, they are shameless !!
Did China and Japan impose restrictions on production and export of pearls in Sri Lanka and Gulf? did they burn the homes and cut hands of such traders in these country like Brits??
he's comparing fair competition to colonial exploitation!!!
no brits here 😂 come on now where are those people who thinks Britain is not a criminal goon .
China in Tibet, Japan in China in the 1930-40's... There is quite some history of colonial exploitation on their hands too.
@@cts9718 im talking behalf of india . china is doing wrong and it should do what it takes . but for now tibet is not capable to claim its rights . so lets dont go off the topic
@@aniketnagar4757 The topic was Chinese and Japanese "competition" with Sri Lanka.
@@cts9718 bro entire debate is named Does Britain own reparations
Would returning the loot be a good point? Starting with the Kohinoor??
Keshav Dixit Three white British fatsos are against reparations. What else do you expect?
+Calvin Jamison One learned Indian - Dr. Shashi Tharoor is in the favour, so Yeah Dear, we want reparations. Moreover, a murderer will never say that he wants himself hanged, similarly Britishers will never hold themselves responsible, which is the reason why three British fatsos won't favour reparations.
Liam Miller you are absolutely right!!!!
Liam Miller your country is getting more and more occupied by Indians, not because of the low IQs, but the opposite. The weak and ignorant words you said about us being uncivilized and having low IQ shows the person you are. I'm sure you are the type of person who is not just a racist but also against understanding stuff in a mature manner. Coming to Kohinoor, it was taken by Britishers and not offered by the country. You should not just be respectful for the country that your people exploited and be feeling guilty for, but also should be sensitive.
Liam Miller We weren't savage beasts or people with low IQ, we knew well enough what we needed to and we were a country. Seriously though, who wrote your facts and history? The same narsassistic lot like you? There was no need of killing and torturing our people for the mere benefit of your people. You gave us nothing more than what we couldn't have got. You pointing out on the 84 IQ makes me believe that's what you have. All you do is point that fake information around. I mean, sure your ancestors were douche and had no sense of humility, you just prove you are the same. I'm not gonna keep on saying you have a low IQ or how you are so blind to the fact we are smarter. Your queen had even excepted one of the people from our place as a teacher and lover some say. GROW UP.
Bengal owing reparations to Dundee ? What a farce
Bikramjit Biswas Don't you know? Dundee was colonised by Bengal, and their resources plundered for Bengal's own good. It was a really tragic period for the Dundians.
@@menon.anirudh XD
@@menon.anirudh No it works as a good counter to shaaror argument that the British somehow destroyed Indian industry. In the context of global change production shifts to different areas. This will enrich some and impoverish others. Simply because you are better or worse off is not a good case for reparations.
@Uditya Tyagi This isnt how it happed. The UK did have tariffs on cotton under the Calico Acts in the 1700s. These were removed before the "deindustrialisation" of India. During this time Indian textile manufacturing was still a global leader. Although there were tariffs in India you need to realise this was a global market and as such Indian goods were being sold all across Asia, Europe and America. When the industrial revolution happed British goods were now cheaper and they could now outcompete the Indians. This had nothing to do with tariffs. It was only after this fact that we see a decrease in Indian manufacturing. It was inevitable On the point of taxes, the Indian tax burden was very low, about 2% at this time. And there were literally no tariff the Uk was a mercantile economy based on free trade. Lastly, I know you didn't mention it but Britain didn't cut of anyone thumbs. Sharrors point was very dumb and historically inaccurate. The time that myth was started was 100 years before the deindustrialisation of India under the east India trading company. Where the Women were rumoured to cut of there own thumbs so they would have to work for them. As the Company wanted to monopolise the cotton and textile industry. Why would they deindustrialised there own industry?
@Uditya Tyagi LOl imagines actually spending time to research a topic and informing your self on the facts. You should be more worried about the indian propaganda you're being feed. Considering everything I just said is backed up by historians and facts.
So this dude's logic is, We plundered your country , took all your wealth, I don't know how I can pay you back, so lets just forget about it.
There are MANY ways you can make reparations Johnny.
1. Provision of scolarships to Indians at your pricey universities on a greater scale.
2. Trade concessions.
3. Increased Import Of Indian goods.
4. Correct your history textbooks and say it like it is, let the youth know the foundation upon which your country developed.
5. Invest in the Indian economy.
6. Return the Kohinoor and other precious artefacts that you took (just for symbolic purposes)
To name a few
Point 4 is enough
@@rizeamv7950 couldn't agree more but they should return the artifacts that are stored in museum as their colonial loots, this things are belong to indian civilization and this things must be returned because this things are our heritage.
@@neelpatel4406 im not indian but i 100% agree there is no point in arguing we all know who’s right and who’s wrong here
If they only return the artifacts to the culture they belong too instead of keeping it in a posh British museum and attract tourist and get money if of it…they people of india and rest of world should be able to see their history…
The 4th Point is important. My Cousins live in The UK and they say that not once in the school have they said about the horrors put upon Indians by the British. My Cousin tried to stand up in History class when colonialism was being taught and he was silenced by the Teacher saying he was spitting nonsense. He pointed out the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre primarily and the teacher laughed how absurd he was.
The 1st point is important step as well which should be carried out as quickly as possible as the NHS has loads of Indians in it helping the Economy and the Nation while paying their College Loans for longer time.
As long as the Britishers now, Know how their so called Heritage and The Great Nation has been built upon, it is good enough for me.
@@ragnarlothbrok7973 Thank You Sir.
Dr.Tharoor is like “dundee? That’s the best you come up with mate? “ 🤪
there's a reason why this video has more dislikes...
Cuz he is gay john and Nigel
This video started just a debate. People should have understand that, he doesn't basically hate India. Infact British rule in India help to expose Indian into outside the world.
Definitely the motive of British ruler is to get more and more from their colonies
@@veipuniilana1842 darling we were getting gold and silver in exchange of Indian products from foreign countries long before these inbred britishers came to our country.
somesh varadkar of course. You Indians want money from Britain and this man says it would be unfair
cuz there are so many indians
There is a fine expression in Texas which perfectly describes this speech - all hats and no cattle.
is he a comedian?
What about the mongol empire? and the Ottoman Empire? Are they also gonna pay repetitions?
@@mewtew8006 they just invaded on them not like britishers who came to business but stab on our back.
@@mewtew8006 Theres a difference between invading and going into a few battles with a few countries, and conlozing, looting, killing, ransacking, torturing people in a nation for 200 years. Maybe learn before your big mouth speaks.
No, but England is definitely a joke
@@mewtew8006 I guess you were bored even before lockdown. What's the need of trying to prove your point on every single comment 😂
is there a button to dislike this 100 times?
is there a button to dislike this comment 100 times?
What about the mongol empire? and the Ottoman Empire? Are they also gonna pay reparations?
do it 101 times
Because your vote is valid as 100 votes of other people? This is your idea of equality on which the central topic of the discussion is based...?
This Prof : I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Italian reparations to Libya.
Shahi Tharoor: 7:10 "I have mentioned it"😏
Is this even a counter to Tharoor?
What was that about Bengal and Dundee? You lose out on competition and then expect reparations?! That's an argument?
In a speech laced with mere syntactic definitions of the word 'reparations', while being very happy to speak on 'moral reparations', the speaker makes no point.
idiot
Speaker is a dumbass 😂😂
This wasn't meant to be a counter to Tharoor. He is just one of the 3 out of the 8 speakers who was against the motion. It is a debate, and he spoke well for his part.
I'm sorry Mr. MacKenzie has to speak after me...... 😁
LMAO 😂😂😂
You speak English well
I found MacKenzie's argument either irrelevant, against his own stand or plain illogical. I wish they had invited someone better.
Or someone more practical or even ethical
He has to proove a point which is a clear cut lie...so what could you expect... This is the highest level of confidence to speak a white lie...
Does Britain owe reparations??
.
1st give us our Kohinoor diamond back u looters. How proudly does the Queen wear a stolen diamond on her crown 😠😂
Symbol of theft on the crown. Let them have it.
come and get it you pussies
U should read history instead of commenting like this... Kohinoor wasn't looted it s gifted. The kohinoor diamond was obtained legally under the terms of the Last Treaty of Lahore and you should read it clearly.
I'm sorry for calling it as gift.. it's my mistake from my side but there was a treaty signed between Duleep Singh(indian king from sikh empire)and east india company following the conquest of Punjab. You can read the last treaty of Lahore which was signed in 1849 and 3rd point of that treaty clearly mentions how kohinoor exchanged as compensation for conquest of Punjab from then owner Duleep Singh who was the youngest son of Ranjith singh.
III. The gem called the Koh-i-Noor, which was taken from Shah Sooja-ool-moolk by Maharajah Runjeet Singh, shall be surrendered by the Maharajah of Lahore to the Queen of England.
How can we call it as snatching?
They got it under the clearance of treaty signed between then and current onwer. Whatever the claims that we raise against kohinoor they show us the treaty and say it was exchanged as compensation legally under the treaty and we can't do anything. Because before Brits there are so many kings who held ownership with kohinoor and those kings are from different empire from outside India. Remember how pakistan, Afghans asserted it's ownership of diamond in 1976 and 2000.
@@oltrot3173 You'll regret it if we come , you rotten pussy of a burglar!
I appreciate these uploads. It would be good if, as well as splitting the debates into segments by speaker, you would upload the full debate as one video too.
Bod Notbod any link of that
Go in the channel play list there u find the whole 8 part
damn you wanna ignite a fucking war bro 😂😂
BORING....*This is what happens when u prepared so much for a debate but a person who came just before you completely destroyed the argument you were about to use*
P.S. Shashi tharoor delivered his speech before you
Big Mac,
bull shit spoken in a rather classy british accent :)
Sorry Sir.
His accent is Scottish....?
So guys, It was the perfect example of "when a man was saved because of time limit of the debate" 😂😂
Otherwise he didn't have much to counter the arguments.
Ya😄😄 truly pointed out..
I believe he is trying to fix a broken mirror and convince the audience that it's like a new one .
Basically this is what I feel he wanted to say" I know we have done a lot of wrongs in the past but we are not gonna return what our grandparents earned unethically and immorally. They were clever so they fooled you and we are not gonna pay their debt"
To be very honest, What I perceive from this whole speech is he's tryna elude and finding ways to deflect it towards other colonization. You can't get away from the fact that Britain owes at least an apology to India.
Pretty sure India has had more than enough apologies.
@@JohnMacbeth no official one. From the government, people now living didn't do the wrong, they just got the benefits, which obviously no one would say no to. Its your so called queen and government who should make an official apology. Atleast have some shame and return the diamond. Could be a starting point.
Maybe India needs to apologise to Indians. It is an incredibly stratified and exploitive society
@@nathyatta What the hell??!!
@@JohnMacbeth What kind of ? Satan Pedophile British should be on a trial like Nazis.
He never came back to the question of returning debts :)
They dont have the capacity to return what they looted. Obviously they'll say dont owe it.
Running away by giving excuses of economic power shift 👌🏽🙌🏽👏🏽
Can't get more shameless,Thank you 🙏🏽
This was a great debate!! Good points on both sides!! My favourite is the Indian gentleman on the other side!!
Even after stealing 45 trillion US dollars, they have an economy of 2.8 trillion😂lol
@@rohith1729 bruh it's a recent study , go search online💀.you will find the whole proof
@@rohith1729 bruh😂 wth are you sure people like Shashi Tharoor claiming the amount to be 45 trillion dollars would lie in front of many respected and intelligent existence and if he would had lied they would have had corrected him. And stop trying to justify what Britishers did was right . We indians don't hate Britishers of now .we know that they don't even know anything about it and we were taught about the things Britishers did from class 3rd so yeah. At least accept bruh💀
@@rohith1729 bruh let's just say it was not that much value . Let's just say for example it was as low as 5 trillion. Will you still return dumbnut.or even say sorry💀 no you won't .
@@rohith1729 your school just shows glory of your ansecstors. They never said dark things about it. And there is lot of things.
The 'drain' increased by almost $20 trillion in just 4 years as calculated by the Marxist economist Utsa Patnaik. She estimated $45 trillion up to 2016 and then $64.82 trillion up to 2020 both at a 5% compound interest rate. The first estimate was for the years 1765-1938 the higher figure was only up to 1900 (1765-1900).
Never to cast moral judgment on the past....how convenient for you
Nice english
Lol ! crap spoken in a classy accent
What about the mongol empire? and the Ottoman Empire? Are they also gonna pay reparations?
@@mewtew8006 No, because those states no longer exist anymore. The Ottoman Empire ceased to exist when the Republic of Turkey was founded. Same goes for the Mongol Empire. The United Kingdom, on the other hand, continues to exist today, just as it did in the 18th or 19th century and is therefore accountable to actions it took in the past.
Abhishek Mhatre
The British doesn’t exist anymore neither. The difference between Ottoman Empire and turkey is the same between British empire and England today
Abhishek Mhatre
Name one country that hasn’t exploited other countries and people
@@mewtew8006 Japan isn't an empire anymore but still demilitarized till this and and only uses it's Self defense forces. Germany is a country that pays reparations to the European countries. We do understand mate that England's economy is still bullshit even after looting trillions of dollars from a lot of countries. England won't be a country anyone if reperations are paid by it to other countries. And nothing is gonna change what dipshit they did around the course of history.
The question is that "is there any shame now left in such persons"?
He must be thinking that what wrong he had done that he had to speak after Mr. tharoor..Poor guy ..
So if I punched someone in the face because I feel like it, he shouldn't sue and ask me for reparations since it happened in the past and we should move on right?
nowhere close to Shashi tharoor's speech!!!!!!!
Dr. Tharoor got many rounds of applause but this white man had to clap for himself in end minutes. I think that's enough to tell who sounded more logical, factual and unbiased.
Britains ruled India for 200 yrs and TATA has become the largest employer in Europe having so many CSR initiatives for locals.
The speaker was so happy talking abt the moral debt, because "it need not be repayed".
But I also like his final solution. Dear UK, how abt returning all the gold/diamond and antiques back to India to start with. Surely taxes can come later :)
Trideep Choudhary How about taking debt from Aryans.
CheetaInsaaf aryans if any, are indians. the word Arya is a sanksrit word. A language that originated in India. There are thousands of references to aryans in our ancient text. Not a single one in Europe. may be that clears it.
+CheetaInsaaf lol , lets first start with something that is a fact rather than something that is a theory and is being debated in intellectual community.
And artefacts too!
Should Mongolia return riches to China? Should Spain return goods to Latin America ? Should turkey repay the Arab world? No, history is history
Hell, I am on the other side of the debate, and even I could do a better job for the 'Not Owe' side than MacKenzie did.
People act like we live in a fairy land 😂😂😂 all this victim talk from so called warriors they can't accept the fact that There people got conquered and it's not their turn to be top dogs spain France uk all these clowns are 2nd class trash usa is still top dog russia china are ok but not a super power 😂
White Dough
"Constipated white dough"
@@amishagarwal3151 Brown turd
I'm From British Guyana 😁
My Bloodline Is From Bihar India 🇮🇳
"Full marks for effort." That's my reparation for the dislike. Don't take it personally. You just couldn't beat your competition, prof.
I have often watched some very stimulating debates and have just as often regretted not knowing their results on the Union floor. I think it would be a good idea to mention them in your notes, as video time is a restrictive and not necessary factor.
It is mentioned in the video description- The house agrees that britain owes reparations.
7:42 Libya and Gaddafi were not self-interested. Gaddafi did much to improve Libya including universal health care and free housing for all its citizens.
8:29 But I'm glad he mentioned western intervention in Libya under Obama.
10:00 He keeps mentioning the practicalities of doing this - which is understandable. But that shouldn't lead to an argument for not having them. Especially by using absurd points like the one about Bengal being responsible for Dundee's commercial collapse - that is free trade. Quite different from you the British (Scots included) breaking people's hands so they can't produce. Shut up, sir!
I see Churchill in him
I am not able to understand .... whom he's supporting ?😂
Wait!! What?
I thought he was arguing against the motion and in the end he accepted that reparations should be paid!!
Weak argument.
I think he should be a stand up comedian 💀
If i was at his place... I would never tried to stand or may be freezed ... After all he had nothing to speak after Shashi Tharoor... he tried his best... above 1 thumps Up from my side.
Wait a minute in the last 30 seconds he changed sides!
he's literally stuttering while speaking!!!! you would be confident enough if you knew that there was nothing wrong on Britain's part which is not the case....lol
Never have I ever heard such an eloquent Briton! It's like he is Vicky Pollard's dad who oddly can speak slightly more articulately than Sarah Palin(Shame)! Also Point of Information Dr Tharoor did not only talk about a moral debt he quantified and gave numbers as to how much is actually owed to India by Britain and also I would like to emphasize on the point Her Excellency Aloun Ndombet made that the infrastructure was not for the inhabitants it was for the administration, which in this case was the British!
CheetaInsaaf If that was the case why many of the belongings of Indian Greats Such as Gandhi, Nehru are there in British Museums, Why billions of gold reserve That was of Brit ruled countries is being used for development of Modern British Countries. There are many countries suffered due to Brit empire and being an Indian we don't really living on amenities provided by Brits, but there are countries that starved because of English Empire and still not recovered they defiantly need reparation not only financially and also morally.
CheetaInsaaf Firstly, A debate is had in the spirit of free speech and open conversations and completely without prejudice. Personal snide remarks & jibes are absolutely unwelcome replies to any of my comments. If you have a valid point I am willing to engage you in decent parlance.
Secondly, If you pay clear attention, Tharoor says that the aid can and will never match up to the damage caused at so many levels and he further goes on to say that it is not the quantity of reparations that matter (even though he gives ample quantifications to support that not even the surface of the quantifiable damage has been scratched with the aid that Britain has provided to India), it is the fact that reparations are owed at all, a proposition which I agree with 100%, especially after listening to his arguments.
Finally, If the strong effective and potent arguments of the esteemed and eloquent panelists don't appeal to your sensibilities, then I'm afraid I'd rather not waste my breath on trying to change your mind. I leave you to your own speculations. However, I will say this: saying 'Britain owes India nothing' is like saying humans owe the environment and endangered species nothing, not even reparations! keeping in mind the subjectivity of the semantics of the term 'reparations'.
Kenneth Hopkins What about the more eloquent and real scholars on the other side arguing against the motion with little emotion and more substance? Why do you expect me to be convinced by the other side?
My point about Shashi Tharoor mocking British aid to India is due to the fact that India has one of the most poorest populations in the world, notwithstanding all the glare of their emerging economy due to their size.
India actually needed and needs each bit of that aid since its so-called huge economy has not been able to uplift most of its population from abject poverty.
Yet he is acting as a thankless person with false pride insulting the aid that his country did need and took.
Is this not a cheap shot?
As to the damage done to India by imperialism, I disagree with him. Was India a great prospering free country before Britain invaded it and made it slave? Or was it a region of small warring kingdoms the population of each being slave to their chieftains or kings? Can he quantify the damage done to India, can he tell us where India would stand without British imperialism? Only then we can estimate the damage done - or whether India actually benefited from the imperialism (however wrong morally).
All our history is shaped by conquests and wars. The system of states and international law is very recent. The whole Hindu civilization of India is the result of a brutal invasion of central Asian people called Aryans. Then The Arabs, Mughals, Turks conquered India and infused part of their cultures in India.
You can't apply today's morals on the past. You can't apologize for the past.
Countries like Hong Kong, Singapore are example of prosperity in Asia and they were also Britain's colonies. How can we judge what damage was caused by Britain?
CheetaInsaaf Tharoor already answered most of the questions raised by you.. Re watch his speech..
Your belief that Indian subcontinent wasnt prosperous before british rule is false and delusional. India had a big share of worlds total trade.
About multiple kingdoms fighting each other.. what is wrong with that ?? Wasnt Europe a region with multiple kingdoms fighting amongst each other ? And arent all of them doing well now ?? Did multiplicity strangled development in these countries ??
The imaginative thinking that if India was still a collection of multiple kingdoms, it would not have made any progress is just laughable.
I would say if the trade that India had at the start of 19th century had continued which British crushed for their own benefits then Indian subcontinent would have been as developed as Europe now..
The whole poverty problem of India is a British empire generated evil which the indians are still dealing with.. Empire apologists need to think about this first.
British created the POVERTY in india and not indians.
CheetaInsaaf, Now you make some very valid points here. However, allow me to put a few things into context to support my allegiance to the proposition.
Firstly, lets say my Indian granddad came into your home in Essex that was a twig hut that you never considered to be 'poor' and then took parts of your twig hut that were useful to him and built an adjacent mansion despite the risk of leaving the inhabitants of your hut exposed and vulnerable.
Let's say for the sake of argument in this hypothetical scenario, your granddad caught pneumonia and died because the entrance to your hut was monitored by my granddad and he felt that the medicines were of more value in his 1st aid kid for his next adventure to Africa, than to save your granddad's life.
Now consider that the women of your house hold had no privacy and you were denied the same amount of access to clean water or even job opportunities as my siblings and I, all because we have extended the scope of our influence & used your resources to facilitate the same.
We don't allow you to work on your own land without you paying us taxes.
Most of all, from the wealth and position we acquire from the occupation of your premise and your overall oppression we bribe, intimidate and coerce the fiefdoms into bonded cooperation with the bureaucracy we have established!
Then one day despite all the odds a new constitution is established that emancipates you and prevents me from oppressing you. I then promptly go to my place of origin where I have built a lavish estate from all the wealth I amassed solely from oppressing your family. The house I built sold on your premise sold to someone else (not you) at a good price. Living off the Downton Abby Style estate and a handsome duchy!
Consider how this would affect your mentality and the mentality of your progeny! Ever heard of PTSD? Also a little research on epigenetics might be beneficial here.
Now to call you out for calling India Poor! India has never been poor nor has it lacked ingenuity or innovation. India gave the world the number 0 and unlike a possible fictitious Arthur it had A real Akbar and A real Ashoka who unified India. Wanna play the game of what ifs? If Britain did not Invade perhaps another unification might have brought the nation under one single rule or the modern world might have seen multiple sovereign states in the indian peninsular.
India has never been poor and the world has always known it hence imperial expeditions have always been supported to India! Eventually it would have figured out how to use it's resources for it's own benefit as it's doing today in it's own unique way and at a very rapid pace might I add.
India took the 'aid' not because it was a hand out it needed but because it and so much more was due and India was being reasonable towards it's oppressors who just came out of a world war which India had nothing to do with but was dragged into nonetheless.
To address your point of 'sins of the father' well tell me this then if you consider the hypothetical scenario I laid out in the beginning of my argument, how would you feel towards a clearly privileged me who has a clear benefit in the world as a global citizen at the cost of your family's and your own oppression?
If you still think no reparations are required then either it's a matter of ego that you will continue to defend your position even if it is not a logical position to hold, or it's a matter of pure apathy which reminds me of what some African Americans tell white people: "You will never understand coz it never happened to you."
As a global citizen, do I think modern Britons must feel and carry the weight of this guilt? NO! Do I think that they should simply forget it and behave as if nothing happened? Absolutely NOT! Should the nation be reprimanded for a duration to prevent such a crime at a global scale? YES! Should a fine/ reparation be levied on the nation as a hard slap on the wrist? Definitely! Should those who benefited vastly and continue to till this day be demanded to denounce their bloodstained inheritances and trusts be set up from the confiscated estates to contribute to a reparation payment to the colony i.e India? 100%YES!! Where that money goes is none of Britain's Business they simply have to pay for the crime against a whole population!
You say wars have happened and no damage has been paid for in the past, well let's set a new precedent then! Esp now that we have global courts to order reparations as opposed to anytime in the past when no such system existed!
Won't that be poetic justice then, when Britain and Europe has to pay for civilising the world because of the civilisation it wrought upon it??
For if the offspring chooses not to atone for the sins of the parent then the offspring has no place continuing to benefit from the spoils of the sins committed!
To offer Reperations means the empire has ended; he's arguing to keep colonialism and neocolonialism alive and exploitive.
The Empire ended 300 years ago. These countries have had plenty of time to get back on their own feet. And are still going through a pandemic. We do not have the money.
@@dominickroberts4653 75
Dr. Shashi Tharoor should have spoken after MacKenzie's speech. Would have loved to see him counter argue MacKenzie
Speaker: I entirely agree
People in the audience: Continues to argue with him
Hey folks, it has become a tradition to watch Dr. Shashi Tharoor's speech at the Oxford Union when visiting this UA-cam channel. However, today I couldn't find his speech that had amassed over 10 million views on UA-cam. What are your thoughts on what might have happened to it?
It's back actually
Just remember even if Every single brit person is sold out....
They can Never repay us....
In my opinion overall there was not nearly enough defence of the empire and the positives it provided from development to pax Britannia to the abolition of sati and the abolition of and wars against slavery (such as the Ashanti wars against black slavers) just for examples.
Secondly an integral part of empire is the role of collaborators. Many people profited from empire from many parts of the world just as many Britons suffered in mills and the like, the Indian Rajas certainly weren't impoverished under Britain from the palaces I have seen. And yet where are the calls for reparations from the West African countries from where the slaves of the West Indies were bought? Where are the call for reparations from the Arab states who profited from perhaps crueler and larger models of slavery? Where are the calls for reparation from the Zulus after Shaka Zulu arguably committed genocide against his fellow southern Africans? Was Britain worse? Clearly there is an agenda at work where some targets are more acceptable than others, some cultures more easily vilified in the modern age.
I'd argue that Britain, in some ways like ancient Rome did a lot of many great and terrible things. Did Gaul or Britain have deep rich cultures before Rome? Yes. Did they endure many terrible hardships? Yes. Is the world a better place for Rome's influence? I'd argue so.
Britain does owe reparations to India dear. A robber would never confess that he robbed you of your everything. But he surely would bring up a ton of explanations for his deeds.
We'll wait till we get our reparations from Italy first for the Roman occupation for 600 years.
@@JohnMacbeth that shit is same like saying... Oh! You stole my shoes, now I'm gonna stole my neighbour's.
Anyway, Britain can't afford to pay the reparations. If you do, your country will be starving for the next 200 yrs...
@@JohnMacbeth You go to hell with Italians with my compliments. We care shit for your sufferings but do kneel and say sorry and return Kohinoor and all other artifacts.
This speech reminds me of a cat whinning with anxiety.
Incase you wanna put a monetary sum on the reparations owed by britain to India, it'd be like selling britain several times to get that value covered! 😂 No wonder why Shashi Tharoor didn't even wanna argue about owing reparations in terms of monetary sum! 😂
Dodging like a pro, He sure knows his way out.
Hes not as slippery as Shashi mate
He’s like Vernon Dudley in Harry Potter... “USELESS”
I dont blame Prof MacKenzie, he just had to say something and get away "subtly" since he is at the spot after Dr. Tharoors owning the opposition.
Can I get complete debate link
2:42 MORAL JUDGMENTS upon PAST. PAST (the time before the moment of speaking or writing) definition taken from google, if we were to imagine anyone beings accused for the crimes done in past does not owe a punishment or a judgment because our fellow friend here just mentioned... Round of applause...
Instead of writing a long comment, I would say he us a chootiya. He indirectly accepted it was a bad british empire and again and again talk of economical shifts around the world. How that even matters. Britain can't payback even 10% of what it looted in its present value. What of wealth creation it would have been done in prvs 3 centuries. And the increased wealth of Individuals in UK(yes UK) as Dr. Tharoor mentioned of Scots also, pumped from the colonies. Britishers don't have any culture or knowledge of their own, they tried to brain wash for centuries in the name of civilizing to veil of their uncivilization. Oh I wrote a long comment.
correct me if I am wrong
He talks at the end about how it should be done, but was he not talking about 'Britain Does Not Owe Reparations'?
Abhishek Wadodkar In the last few seconds, Dr. Tharoor and the lady in blue next to him come to the same conclusion. You can see Dr. Tharoor pointing at the opposition laughing about how they did unwittingly concede that reparations were owed.
Anand Srinath True :D :D
Prof Mackenzie makes several poor points, true, but he also makes a huge number of valid and nuanced ones. At no point does he 'forgive' the crimes of the British Empire or defend it. In fact he praises the debate for not devolving into a 'was the empire good or bad?' issue, which is something people on here seem to be a fan of.
Yet people in the comments are still somehow calling him a defender of imperialism and and an apologist of colonialism, DESPITE his multiple condemnations of the empire and advocation of a form of 'repayment'. I understand it is an emotional subject, but why not just listen?
He is comparing competition with colonisation.... India was slave.... Not competition..
Don't you understand? Point is about understanding if Britain owes or not, it's not about paying it.. watch Mr. Shashi Tharoors speech and you will get it all. Talks were about realisation.. Do you even know that British history doesn't include anything bad happened in India only praises, why not the truth?
Man, Peter Griffin nailed that English accent!
Glen Suchitha That's not an English accent.
His accent is Scottish....?
No amount of money paid back to India would right the wrongs. I agree with this guy and most would agree that colonialism was wrong. Now countries must play the hand they are dealt and try to succeed and it seems like India is doing that.
Fair statement but in same vein why pay slave masters a compentation; ua-cam.com/video/rrmlq0jUZvY/v-deo.html
So it all means that so called colonists will enjoy on our money and never care to give it back? Our poverty is result of colonists as well as other countries had gone through same 🙄
So you're going to rape and murder millions of people, steal trillions and trillions out of their pockets, and set a country back hundreds of years............. and you suggest that country just play with the cards they're dealt. You're asking everyone to forget about this, and it's mockery... insulting to say the least. Any effort is what people are asking for, and what India deserves is every penny Britain could cough up for the next two hundred years and then interest. Just because you don't want to think about how much money it is doesn't mean we shouldn't pay our debts.
This actually shows people can literally justify ANYTHING nowonder people can justify terrorists
@ 11:20 What did he say? International "what" formula?
how come he listens with respect yet the leftys always interrupt and shout out
The intolerant left at its best. Just scream reperations and expect it to happen lol
Professor sahab, made very good points. Especially in the beginning of the video. Edit: look at Mr. Tharoor's reaction at the end of the video.
You can't cover your mistakes although you agree with everything.
Did he just concede to reparations in the end? Wait what?
Can never take a scott for an intelligent person
James Watt, Robert Maxwell, Adam Smith to mention just a few.
Was wondering about the same. Could be the climate or the alcohol!
This man is liar 🤥
2:45 Then why do we have courts and laws, I mean you commit a crime and then say it was in the past🙄😂😂. Love from a Gaelic Gladiator's heart🇮🇪🍻🇮🇳
I think Big Mac here has misunderstood the concept of Reparations. The Bengal-Dundee scenario would be comparable to India & British if Dundee had it's own Jute; Bengal Invaded it and Started producing Jute products from Dundee; acquiring the jute by force, and sold it back to them; wiping out any Jute product manufacturers in Dundee altogether.
That is not at all what happened. Bengal had the Jute; they exported it to Dundee. When Jute product manufacturers in Bengal became popular, they started meeting local demand with their own raw material. Me, meeting my own demand with my own property doesn't warrant a reparation to someone I was in business with in the past.
the title itself gave me
wtf..
0 claps throughout his speech while dr. Tharoors speech got like claps all throughout. Period. Do we need more justification that this guy tried hard😗awww
Yes, the all-Indian crowd certainly had no part in that.
@@CharlesDickens111 i dont thibk itws all indian tho
@@CharlesDickens111 look at it again mate, I don't spot much Indians and there is also possibility that u can't differentiate brown, all brown people look same to you
@@DrArjunSingh_MOIC they certainly all act the same.
@@DrArjunSingh_MOIC all brown people are the same
i loved his argument ... the moral debt is so important to keep in mind to control future greed toward other rich but weak areas around the world
sara meachel Yes, India doesn´t need Britain´s aid. We owe a sorry from your government. Stop spreading the lie that Kohinoor diamonds were gifted by indians. It was looted from us.
tony thomas I am Iraqi/Turkish citizen i have no relation whatsoever with UK. my curiosity brought me here :D
@@niory yo🗿
I'm curious to know how this debate ended. Anyone?
saividhyakannan In favour, 186 to 50-something.
Thanks!
Wow, nice stand-up comedy MacKensie!!
Keep doing it and you'll be successful soon.
Well he won't be working alongside you in that call centre scamming people for a living.
@@rnbishop9185 Yeah well, he'll be cleaning my toilet just like you and your ancestors so he won't have time. I understand.
@@rnbishop9185nice one
well we gonna extract inch of everything you took from India
but now kohenoor would be the really good place to start at
return it, it belong to india
wrong it was an official "gift"
The kohinoor was NOT a gift. It was a War spoil, manufactured circumstances by british to claim the jewel to British hands by Treaty of Lahore. The dimond was then sent to England as British property in hands of Duleep singh, King of Punjab, merely as a person to present the jewel to the British Crown. It was never a gift..
thats why gift is in " "
Robin Singh if you are gonna get your kohenoor back, we want our technologies and culture which we gave you
@@mewtew8006 hehe what u gave us even the most advance thing British did in India was Railway which they used for them and took 2 times cost for that from India
The pseudo sanctimonious insolent attitude of Brits is still lingering in their characters vividly..🙂
Why are there so many dislikes? I thought this was just a debate and he offered up some alternatives to the standard idea of reparations. I loved Thandor's speech, so I see how that would be a hard act to follow, but could someone explain all the dislikes to me?
Indians are mad lol
What a masterly (albeit sly) way of dismantling the previous' speaker argument: using his very last stated point. Today's British society benefits from its many centuries of being a colonial superpower whereas countries like India still suffer the long-lasting effects of colonial yoke. Reparations and compensation are indeed necessary; not because of the ransacking of the past, but because of the misery that ensues in the present.
Bullshit. China has reinvented itself in 30 years.
@@jimjones8736 no not at all
You already got owned by Mr Tharoor. You just don't admit it. haha
Won't* I don't try to speak your language and fuck it up so please try harder
@@rnbishop9185 No need to be rude. Not everyone can speak perfect English.
Bengal didn't come to Dundee to trade and then establish a private corporation and then hand it over to a govt saying oh I can't handle it you handle it for us....
May I ask the outcome of the vote following this debate? Thank you.