Friends, this truly might be the most important interview I've done all year. If the conversation was helpful please make sure to give it a like so UA-cam recommends it to more people
1:25:12 Amen brother! This is the moment for Christians, and those of us who left the church because of its toxicity, to stand up and reclaim Christianity centered on Jesus’s teachings, focused on Matthew 25:35. We are the people who should be on the front lines of the protests, protecting our neighbors, speaking out about the denigration of Christ’s teachings by these evangelicals. If we call ourselves followers of Christ, then we were born in a time where we must rise to that occasion. I’m scared of this coming Trump administration because I know that I will be called to not just say that I’m a follower of Christ’s teachings, but to prove that with my actions. I studied the rise of fascism in Germany in college. I have visited Dachau and Auschwitz. I always wanted to believe that I would have resisted. I wouldn’t have been a bystander. I’m pretty sure that at some point in the next few years, I and many like me, will face that test. I will hate myself if I find I’m too scared or too willing to look away. I’m a white Christian suburban woman. It’s people like me. People who have the privilege to blend in with the fascists and look away from the suffering of others who are the ones who will make or break the resistance movement. We need to organize together and build a massive coalition with our brothers and sisters from the Black church and the social gospel Catholics. Those of us who know the scriptures and can quote Jesus’ words back at these wolves in sheep’s clothing. Who’s with me here!
I have been hoping, and praying that the evangelical church would realize what evil, and unChrist like movement they were following, but I have began to realize they are probably going to keep supporting it, and making excuses no matter what Trump, and company do.
I am!! A couple of other women (all from different churches) have found each other. We meet to talk and vent but also to pray, find out why God has brought us together. Fight for others, yes, but fight to bring his Gospel back to the light. We sometimes laugh and say we can’t come out as Christians against Trump to our fellow church goers, we don’t feel safe yet, but God will show us the way. Wish you were around to fellowship with us!! Love your vibe 😊
@@MayaXimena123 thank you! I’m glad there are others out there that are starting to organize. I feel very alone here because all of the Christians I know are Trump supporters. Those that I’ve been meeting with are all people who either grew up in other faith traditions or grew up non-religious. I feel like I sometimes have to be a kind of decoder ring for them to understand what is going on with the end goals of the Trump administration and Project 2025. I sort of feel like having been exposed to the ideas in the 7 mountains mandate and end times prophesies gives me a kind of answer key that others don’t have. But it also makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it all and the way that they look forward to most of us burning in lakes of fire. And at the same time, I used to be part of that community. I used to think that it was what Jesus taught. I think so many are being deceived by these grifting false prophets. Thank you for your message! It give me hope! 🙏💕
@hillarymurphy5256 Same here. I'm AA and I noticed the shift around 2014. After Obama things got weird and I was in predominantly white churches. It went from feeling like we were trying to have racial reconciliation, to me being the good negro to full on racial degeneration. Left one church for another that felt more cohesive only for them to just have a toxic corporate vibe that put the edifice over people. My mom worked there and they made her sign an NDA. Why does a church need an NDA? Tried going to a black only church but just doesn't feel right. I want the "melting pot" but it just seems like were more divided now then we were 20 years ago. So I'm without a church and suffer from PTSD. I tried a house church and it had the same issues as nationalist Christians. It's weird out here
1:06 I have a now-former friend who used to go to NAR services. She took me to one once, and I remember feeling extremely uncomfortable there. I knew something was off. I honestly wanted to throw up. I refused to participate in the tunnel thing they were doing. I watched, confused, as people started falling on the floor. When my friend asked if I wanted to go out for dinner with her and her friends afterwards, I told her I had a busy day the next day and needed to get going. I never went back to that church. That's not what ended our friendship. Our politics were becoming quite different, and it was the first thing to burst the appearance of our friendship. However, as you've said, the two - her politics and NAR association - are linked. I am now very scared of her and for her. In October of 2020, I started up a Bible study. We are still together, and now I feel led to keep going with it. All of us in there are Democrats who consider ourselves, primarily, followers of Jesus. I have also started writing my memoirs/a devotional that will put together all the Bible verses that show to others what God says about Himself and Jesus. Maybe that can be part of the constructing!
I'm a former Christian now atheist who has really enjoyed this station. Today's conversation was very educational. I'm fairly educated on the Bible but honestly, the Jehu story was totally missed by me. Thank you and keep up the FANTASTIC work.
My mom is obsessed with Jonathan Cahn, like to a fault. I've received maybe 6 of his books from her and read none. I'm also an atheist. I was going to reveal that to my parents this year and I don't know that I will now. Hearing his name and that prophecy was a little triggering. I can only imagine she voted because of that prophecy, and after I explained everything I thought Trump would do. It's just sad.
@johnnymatias3027 Jonathan Kahn had an interpretation of Trump’s assassination attempt. Butler = ____, etc. But, he missed one very important detail, that the assassin came from Bethel Park. It's really surprising that a messianic jew would miss that Beth El = House of God. Ask your mom why he would miss this?
@@johnnymatias3027 I totally understand. Although liberal christians I chose to not tell my parents that I became an atheist and it just wouldn't have added anything positive. They both died within a couple of years and I still feel I made the right decision for me/them.
@lisajones3907 there are hundreds of similarly dark sounding associations I've casually heard that could paint Trump in the light of the anti-Christ but they don't. Why? I can only imagine group buy in to his promises. I reject that form of thinking altogether, but it shocks me sometimes. I mean, gosh, there have always been associations from the Biblical apocalypse with a war Russia started causing destruction in Israel and spreading to the world, a world leader who stops the violence and takes a head wound and unified everyone with his seemingly magical ability to fix stuff. I couldn't possibly draw more parallels with the pre-Trump accepted conception of the anti-Christ and Trump himself but they seem utterly blind it. I won't lie, the uniformity and rapidity with which the entire establishment evangelicals have turned Trump into a messianic figure makes me almost believe in prophecy lol. Like, should have been obvious, God would make the *church* unify around the anti-Christ, not a bunch of heathens so it's some obvious, easy battle of good and evil.
28:50 “The ONLY way you get there is by denying reality.” YES!! Thank you!! I am SO TIRED of responding with facts to arguments that deny reality! THANK YOU!
Dear Tim, I think you are correct in saying that this may be the most important interview that you have had this year! It certainly has been the most informative and insightful. I am totally blown away by the by Matt’s knowledge of the landscape. It so helps me to know what we are dealing with here. I wish I had time to thank you properly for your UA-cam channel and share my story of deconstructing as I have only been subscribed to your channel for a few months now. I have been deconstructing for years and reconstructing for years but I wasn’t aware of the term and didn’t know that was what I was doing until more recently. So much more to say but fight now I have to bolt. Sooo until my next transmission. Keep doing what you doing brother.
This interview led the algorithm of UA-cam to Matt Taylor's lecture "Has Evangelical Christianity become a threat to American Democracy?" at Westmont College. I am so thankful for having had the opportunity to hear Matt Taylor. I will share it in my little circle.
Thanks Tim for this channel! It has been a life line for me! I left my church over Christian Nationalism, and had a moment of knowing that everything they are fighting for is wrong. I really have become more progressive in the last 5 years while serving at a mercy ministry here in the states. I really had focused on what God showed me through the words, and actions of how to live. I quickly realized I could not abandon my faith, and that I couldn’t keep going to my home church, no matter how sanitized it was being presented. I have lost my whole community, and all the people I have considered my tribe my whole life. I also knew I had to speak out. I am a very non confrontational senior, who has never stood up for anything in my life. I have used Facebook to do this, and since I have about 500 friends, and only around 5 who are supportive my views. It hasn’t been easy, and have been told I am not a Christian, and one even told me I am going to hell. I have mainly voiced my views on Christian nationalism, and stayed silent on my newer views of social justice, LBGTQ +, abortion, and other things that would definitely get me called not Christian. When my views on these subjects started changing, I really thought I could just be silent, and still accepted by my evangelical church. I realize that shouldn’t happen. I am attending a church that is evangelical, but does teach Christian Nationalism. Fortunately, I have a daughter I can discuss these things with, and have found a few like minded people. The future is frightening,band I am so grateful to God that I was not swept away in it.
I grew up with one foot in evangelical fundamentalist Christianity, and one foot in mainline Protestantism (United Methodist at a progressive congregation). I was blessed that, while one side was telling me to exclude, to marginalize, and to value imperialism, the other side was telling me to love, to serve. To learn, to question, to study broadly through many Christian traditions, and also was not judgmental when I took comparative religion seriously. I never had to deconstruct, because I was always deconstructing while I was constructing. And even with that, as an adult, I’ve realized how many unconscious biases I had internalized from the Right. But I already had the framework to look at those with clear eyes every time something has come up. Where will we, as people who DO want to fallow Jesus go from here, and how willing will we be to lay aside our comforts to non-violently fight for freedom and dignity for everyone? I don’t know yet. But I know I’m thinking about it. And I think that’s an important first step. Thanks Tim and TNE for all the work you do.
I left Christianity about 18 mos ago and after consuming content to help me understand what was going on, I started learning about Xian Nationalism. When t ran for office again, I got hyper informed about politics. I am in a place where I think I have a perspective that is very zoomed in and I never would have seen any of what is happening not just to our govt, but the church and has now moved on to distort the faith. I have a problem with that because I know the horrible things that people will do in the name of God, but I remember and still live out the true goodness that Jesus taught. This movement never mentions Jesus nor do they refer to the New Testament. This movement will grow more and more until mainstream Christianity catches on to the harm it is doing to the church and it has to happen now. I feel like I’m trying to pull everyone off the tracks and everyone seems more content to just become mist from the damage the train is bringing with it.
I appreciate your voice so much. While I do understand people leaving the church, there are those of us who are very much believers and are just feeling so lost. Not lost in faith, but lost in community. And if history does repeat and more and more leave the narrow path, then we will need each other even more. Thank you.
As a secular individual, religion and Christianity in itself had fascinated me. My mom encouraged us to look at all types of faiths to become well rounded individuals. Saying that the nation needs more theologists to combat the nationalist narrative is something I agree should happen. It seems to me that secular theologists as well as those within the Christian faith would be beneficial in composing such a discussion.
@@sw3783 I'm not sure if this applies, but I did look up whether or not a secular person could be a theologian and from what I've seen it is possible. Not in answering whether or not God exists (which would be more the philosophy of it), but how the Bible as well as the history and culture surrounding it reflects and can benefit in today's culture. A Secular individual can find wisdom and truth (truth in a philosophical and spiritual sense) in the Bible just as much as in other religious texts. I find a lot of what TNE has shown to follow much of my own personal doctrine despite me not being a follower of Christ. So, I feel it's completely possible for a secular individual to be theological and perhaps should be in order to be more welcoming during difficult times.
“Time to construct.” Yes!! I am in!! Dear Matthew, please get on anything other than X so that I can follow you. Much love and appreciation to you both, Tim and Matthew. Thank you so much for inviting us share in this important conversation!
Before you fall in love with "The Black Church," understand. The Black Church is not a monolith and most have been infected with the Prosperity Gospel. There are confessing churches in the black community and in the history of the black church are voices that need to be heard today; so do love and be loved, but do not be seduced. Remember this When you're lovers in a dangerous time, Sometimes you're made to feel as if your love's a crime Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight You gotta kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight
I think this “Prosperity Gospel” churches is the Christian Right’s weakest link, unless these churches are politically aligned with more Far Right churches…and these churches tend to racial. There is a way to use the notion of a “prosperity gospel” by refocusing the church’s mission to be laying up one’s riches in heaven by their good works, rather than it all being about the strength of one’s piety. The Gospels are ripe for this message to be spread around rather Apocalypse 24/7.
I know I will never again trust Christian leaders in the way I did most of my life. I got caught up in the 80’s in the Jerry Falwell moral majority. The is how I came to be a Republican that would vote for any other party because of abortion. I was a young Mom with two little ones, and we were fed so much fear. I know I was part of the beginning of this awful movement, but by the grace of God saw the way out.
Matthew Taylor is awesome. His new book is a must-read. There’s just one point I’d like to make. The election was, in fact, close. Out of 60 elections, Trump’s electoral college win is ranked 44th and his popular vote win is ranked 50th, one of the lowest since the 19th century, with only a 1.47% margin. The majority of voters voted for someone else. No wide margin. No landslide. No mandate.
1:35:05 Woo!! I'm getting chills. Christianity is so deep. I don't think I'll ever understand it, but there's so much there to dig through that I'm just excited to learn more about it even if I never really piece it all together
If only there was a Real separation of Church and State... And NO Lobbying...SMH Thing's that have been forgotten.. And most importantly making our capital part of our country.... Instead of DC...
I use to work with a guy Tony Orban, and he would say to me "My cousins the president? of Hungary" (were both Hungarian ancestry and grew up in the same farm area where a lot of Hungarians settled in Saskatchewan) of which I responded "so what, I'm related to Atilla the Hun" needless to say, we both got a good chuckle.
Fascinating. Thank you for this discussion! The jezebel sh*t was really revealing and disturbing. I’d love to see more about the way that North American Evangelicals (Canada too) have been taught that the bible is for us, that it’s a literal road map and all prophecies point to our history? I’ve really struggled with biblical interpretation being so flawed and unreliable and been unable to read it for close to a decade. This is one of the biggest problems I have and would love to see it discussed by a scholar in the field. Thank you!!
love & solidarity from Vienna, Austria american friends your work is essential to fester an organized resistance ✌️ "la solidaridad es la ternura de los pueblos" 🤗
I just finished listening to the book! So much good information, and also very disturbing. It is discouraging to know that the people who need it most will never read it. That being said, thank you so much for your research and hard work putting it all together.
This was excellent, thank you. I appreciate hearing the scholars concerned because my evangelical family thinks I am overreacting and/or have been brainwashed.
Incredible conversation. I will need to listen to it a few times to really get everything. Tim, you MUST invite Frank Schaeffer on your program. He has his own channel "It Has to Be Said". I am sure you know who he is but if not, please look him up. Keep up the great work!!!
I remember my home church (conservative Mennonite church) showed the film he produced for his dad (How we should then live) in evening services mid 80s or so. Now I've left that church and read Frank's later autobiography. Now maga has taken over my home church. (I did hear from one elderly member who realizes that Trump lies all the time). The pastor has written "pastors thoughts" that are pro maga talking points before the election. Sickening.
I appreciate you Clarifying that a great deal of evil was and is Christian. That is not me taking the Lord’s name in vain. It is a recognition of fact and stating the truth.
A note from waaaay across the aisle- the friendly atheist issued an open invitation in one of his videos that he's open to working with people of faith where goals align. I dunno if your ministry stretches that far, but a discussion between y'all on christian nationalism would be epic listening for the (probably only person in the) crossover audience. The idea that moral people everywhere have to fight this is essential. keep editing lol- you can't become rush as long as you preach from love and not fear.
This program is perfect for me. I am so thankful for your voice and message and community. I look forward to moving forward because evangelical theology is all i have known but left a long time ago. I am ordering the book now. 🥰
I'm ready to rebuild and reconstruct my life and society. But I won't do it with reliance on a savior. I worship the universe on my feet looking up. I reject the belief that I'm an inherent sinner. If I wrong another I owe them an apology and am in their debt. I don't believe in accountability to an omniscient observer or organized religion. I value human life, freedom, authenticity, individuality, and sovereignty. I believe in democratic progressivism. I am not a Christian in the traditional sense but I look up to Christ as a moral figure of historic importance. I'm ready to build something new with what I've chosen to keep.
Most Christians misunderstand their own religion. They have been taught twisted scripture for so long that they cannot tell lies from truth. Sin is not about disobedience to God. Sin is about damage to oneself and to others and to harmonious relationships. Evangelicals (or Evilungelicals) are preparing to do much damage to many people and our country.
A scary but excellent chat with Matt Taylor. We do need to understand what makes Trumpism and these Christian Nationalists tick. The more we understand our "enemy", the better position to win the battle.
Many evangelicals have lost their faith in God to judge. Now they want to usurp God's role. How arrogant they are. Where is their humility? They have proclaimed Jesus as too "woke" for them.
Thank you so much, Matt, for mentioning how much Trump polluted the information ecosystem!!! This has not not been pointed out enough, and it’s such a relief to hear it in this convo. Thank you!! 11:36
This is true for every argument. Try to talk to Christian leaders about anything you contradict in their teaching of a Bible passage and you will be ostracized. This is the scariest part of this message, imo. I could never have articulated what Matt Taylor says but it all resonates with what I have felt in my spirit. I am so afraid if what he will do to innocent people.
What is so often missed with the verse The first shall be last and the last shall be first is that this is not a call to flip things 180°. It’s a call to flip things 90°; those crossing the finish line first as last and last as first it is those crossing the finish line all at the same time.
Tim & Matt, thank you so much for this discussion! Like Matt, I grew up in an Evangelical church. I'm still very close to most people from that life. I am so concerned how my friends & family that grew up with me & have the same values & morals can support Republicans.
I'm still trying to understand how the Moral Majority and voices like James Dobson shaped the political imagination for a generation of Christians. Also have a bit of sideeye for the SBC and to what degree prominent voices came from there and helped mold white American Christianity. ... so that we better know how to speak to these people.
My wife and I used to follow Dobson for a few years even visiting his site in Colorado when my kids were young. Changed my tune when his political arm of his organization prayed for rain during the Democratic convention in Denver that year.
When you realize that this group used abortion to coalesce all Christians into the republican party because they were upset about desegregation. The goal was to gain power in all parts of government to get back to where they, white males, are the only ones in charge. You can understand what this long game mission is. Throw in how the prosperity gospel allowed them to gain massive wealth, which allows power. It's very easy to see where we've (Christians) have been led and why.
Thank you! I’ve already had the experience of confronting the Jezebel argument with a couple of long term friends and I think they caught a glimpse of the inaccuracy of the current application. It’s worth it to take the trouble of having these conversations.
Thanks for this necessary and urgent conversation. Those of us with a faith tradition need these kinds of spaces to help us think through coalition building as we move forward.
There was a populist movement from the left. It was Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. They have great ideas, however they have also been effectively marginalized by the "socialist" boogeyman label. The right has done a great job scaring Americans of anything that even has a whiff of socialism, even though most wouldn't know how to define socialism.
I really appreciated this particular podcast. I’ve listened to his work on white straight American Jesus. I’ve been involved in NAR theory before Trump. I stopped going to those kinds of meetings 2016 when certain prophets backed Trump. I felt very sad when Matt discussed the current Jehu stuff. That breaks my heart too. I was brought up Catholic but have been involved with charismatic nondenominational churches since age 16. I stopped going to my church a couple months ago because of the rhetoric about demonic democrats. I’m currently reading Augustine’s homilies on the book of John and often cry when I’m reading it. BTW the second Vatican Council was in 1962 - ‘63. It ushered in the charismatic movement in the Catholic Church and the nuns in my school introduced reading the Bible instead of catechism.
People have continually said trump can't do things. So far he has done many things people have said he couldn't or wouldn't. I think people are underestimating him. He's dumb, yes, but that really doesn't mean anything. Bush jr wasn't smart and he did quite a bit of damage.
54:59 I wish you would have mentioned Opus Dei. I know it starts to sound really strange, but that’s the organization, sect, movement, Cult. Very interesting.
Scripture explaining Trump, MAGA, & the Right Wing media = 2 Timothy 3:1-9 - “But know this: Hard times will come in the last days. People will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, proud, demeaning, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, without love for what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding an outward form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid these people. For among them are those who worm their way into households and deceive gullible women overwhelmed by sins and led astray by a variety of passions, always learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so these also resit the truth. They are men who are corrupt in mind and worthless in regard to faith. But they will not make further progress, for their foolishness will be clear to all, as was the foolishness of Jannes and Jambres.
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This is just a minor thing, but am I wrong in thinking that when JD Vance said he was "creating stories" regarding Springfield Ohio, he was using that word in the sense of a scoop or headline? He was quick afterwards to say as much, which leads me to believe that this wasn't an admission. I do believe that the narratives surrounding Springfield's immigrant population were untrue, so the idea that he was creating stories is effectively correct, but that's not the idea Vance was intending to communicate in that interview, right?
The word Christian is mentioned in the bible 3 times, the word disciple, 261 times. The message that Jesus preached was the immediate availability of the Kingdom of God. After he said he had been given all authority in the heavens and on earth, he told his followers to make apprentices/disciples/students, learners of him, to engulf them into the Trinitarian reality of living and to teach them how to do what he prescribed. A person can call themselves a Christian and not choose to be a disciple of Jesus.
Most of the scholars I study talk constantly about the gospels. 🤷 That said, that is definitely not "all you need". God gave us the entire Bible for a reason.
@@rickspalding3047 If Christian men feel it is their "God given" right to force their faith onto others, their faith is Godless. Christianity is about a person accepting Jesus as their savior, not forcing Jesus onto them. That is the objective of men, not God.
@@rickspalding3047 The state doesn't need to force everyone to believe in gravity in order for us all to feel its effects. Truth stands on its own. If it needs to be legislated or enforced, it isn't true. Christian nationalists preach another gospel, and may it be accursed before it completely dims the light of true witness of the body of Christ.
@@benjiyogi639 Christian nationalism is essentially a majority Christian nation that believes in sovereignty. Your talking about enforcement. This is a category error.
Science is not a pagan religion. But neither is it always 💯 factual accurate for all of time. It changes as information and times change, as technology to understand and study our world changes and as we think of new questions, better questions and outside of the box questions to ask. Science is only as good as the questions we can think to ask of it. Knowing this helps me to understand what this woman was perhaps trying to say poorly
A scientist will never say they know 100% for sure; and that has been used against science ('see they are not certain; so it is a belief'). New tech allows the same questions to have deeper/further answers. However the preponderous of evidence is that new science refines our understanding of a matter. Eg with all the evidence for a globe earth in a solar system that is not going to be overturned in favour of a flat earth. Our (humanity's) knowledge may increase - we know understand that the globe is not an exact sphere but has a chubby middle. However the basics of a globe earth that was recognised by ancient Greek scholars is still true. So agree, science is not perfect and I think post WW2 there was a massive celebration of science and technology. The development of medical options - medication and surgical; the constant flow of new tech. I think by the 1970s the advert to convince the buyer had a man in a white coat. If we didn't have the answer we soon would. But then even as tech continued to developed massively we also had to face up to medicine not having all the answers; and disappointment that cure for x is not possible yet. So many ideas of what life would be like by 2000 didn't happen. There is still poverty; the 'wicked still flourish' ..... etc Science never promised to fix the world - but people used science to suggest that. The result is a backlash and lack of trust in scientific knowledge. Science didn't cure all illnesses and now there are many who argue that even the treatments we do have, that save lives, are not to be trusted - whilst offering to sell totally untested supplements; new age type 'cures' leaving people dying unnecessarily. It is why distrust of science and poor science education leads to elected officials asking in debates why swallowing a camera designed to assess the stomach and guts isn't used to assess pregnancies. Or believing that ectopic embryos can be saved. No science doesn't have all the answers; but that doesn't mean it can be written off; and good education includes science; how it is explored; its limits but also where it can be trusted.
But isn’t putting Jesus says your Lord and Savior doing exactly what people are doing with Trump? Couldn’t 2000 years from now people look at Trump as Jesus has gotten built into? The historical Jesus never claimed to be a Lord and savior. That is the sociopolitical system that put that on him in order to use Christianity to cement patriarchy as the social political structure via Constantine. We can do better in this day and age if we learn this history and take it to heart on what it’s teaching us. We must do better if we want to get out of this hole we are in.
Definitely think context is missing. On the other hand, there are those who take issue with science because they have been trained to put dogma over data (misquoting Dan McClellan).
I think saying sciense is not always 100% factual accurate does not do science justice. Scientific facts are the scientific consensus until proven otherwise and a huge part of science is the process of trying to disprove facts. Science is ever evolving and while not set is stone it has rigor. I think explaining it that way gives people who have no experience with academics aand science more understanding on why science changes.
Ok i’m off-topic: The WSJ reports that the UN’s Special Advisor on the Prevention of Genocide has been dismissed after refusing to say that the campaign in Gaza fits the definition of a genocide based on the evidence.
The problem is no one knows what Jesus actually said. Mark, the earliest Gospel was written about 40 years after Jesus' death. Jesus spoke Aramaic, but the Gospels were written in Koine Greek (someone had to have translated them). There are presumed earlier sayings documents (such as the theoretical Q Document), but they did not survive. Dr. Dennis R. McDonald has shown that the Gospels imitated the Odyssey by Homer with direct parallels. The Gospels were literary works for inspiration and theology, they are not historically accurate. That is why the Bible cannot be understood literally. It is all parable.
While I appreciate much of what he is saying (although missed parts in the middle while moving about), the part at 1:17:35 Is a bunch of simplistic, pseudo-scientific claptrap that misrepresents evolutionary theory and understanding - in fact it's the same set of bogus, immature, "alpha male"- existentialist ideas that are spread by the "Rogansphere" and right-wing evangelicals that are stuck in a perpetual adolescence. Chuck Norris is a creation of Hollywood - in fact much or what right-wing evangelicals believe is a creation of Hollywood - which is ironic considering how much the right-wing uses SOME of "Hollywood" as a knee-jerk anger inducer.
Go back to Genesis and the Garden of Eden. The first thing in creation that G-D declares "not good" is when it comes to Man being alone. They look for a possible helpmate in all of creation and find nothing -- so G-D creates Woman out of Man. In the Chassidic interpretation -- backed by scripture -- both are being escorted out of Eden within 48 hours. Some help, right? But that was exactly what was intended, and the Woman helped Adam see the light. For centuries, Christians have not understood the interpretation -- hiding in plain sight!! And if you get Genesis out of whack, the rest of the books go right down the tubes. (Of course, Jews do not believe in original sin. Ridiculous.) So much misogyny results from the standard interpretation.
couple thoughts. at the beginning of the podcast you talked about the media having some responsibility for bringing on trump because of their quest to not appear biased, they did hit how dangerous a trumps presidency could be, and yet when you had the pro Palestinian on your show and he talked about the danger of Kamala, and how the democrats did not allow a Palestinian to speak and how all Americans were responsible for Palestine. you barely did any push back. For instance. I am a liberal man who has protested Isreal's treatment of Palestine since before that man was born. And it has caused rifts in my family relations. And you did not stress just how dangerous not only to American's a trump presidency would be, but how dangerous his presidency would be to Palestine. Imagine an emboldened Netanyahu who has discussed using tactical nuclear weapons on Palestine now feeling free to do that. I do not know what will happen. but you let that man make statements that you barely challenged which were dangerous. For instance, if all Americans are responsible for what their government does, then doesn't that in turn mean all palistineans are responsible for what their leadership has done? thus making the genocide justifiable? do you see how insane that is? And how about his theory that palistineans were peace loving and would not destroy Israel? isn't that the same as the christian church saying that they were peace loving, and yet supported the crusades? I understand the idea that not all christians and not all Palistinians want these dangerous things, and yet Palistineans voted for Hamas. Oh.. but arent they justified? isn't that what the trump supporters are saying? I almost stopped listening to your podcast because of that conversation, and some other things that you have said, but I am glad that I didn't because this was a worthwhile conversation.
Hello guys. I love the conversation and the grave concerns expressed. We are to take up our cross, not the sword. Note this however: HHS tweeted "Happy Pansexual/Panromantic Day" in recent days Why is the federal government pursuing this kind of "education". The great mass of Americans don't want to hear this - it is not ok stuff. Is this not why Harris was sure to lose? Evangelical Christians who have grandchildren like I do must never face a day where their granddaughter is told at public school that she can be a boy, and hear this without parental input. This is not just a bogeyman/hoax, but is actually occurring some places, is it not? How do we adhere to scriptural teaching and avoid fascism? Any ideas, anyone?
Ellen G White of the Seventh Day Adventist church wrote The Great Controversy over 165 years ago and wrote about these evangelical and christain nationalist powers and how they would form a churchstate union and establish and mandate a Sunday day of worship in the U.S,and that this would constitute the Mark of the beast.I hope Tim,you and your audience would read this work.Thanks for all this information.
I think the Seventh day Adventist church opposed to the Christian nationalism movement but I know a fair amount that supports Trump because of the abortion issue. I personally voted for Kamala.
@@marcosfranco2383 Most of this right wing support in the SDA church comes from a institutional level and a fundamentalist strain and a parochial culture rooted in third world nations,where Adventists have had most of their growth(19 million compared to 850,000 members in US.) THESE country's produce very paternalistic cultures like in Africa where the christain and SDA church's supported criminalizing homosexuals and abortion.Also in Rawanda during the genocide 10,000 Adventists and Pathfinder Adventists helped in the slaughter killing people.The Adventists would stop killing on the Sabbath,then go right back at it the rest of the week.This republican strain of Adventism has its sympathys with the church's investments in the stock markett and sovereign wealth funds.THEIR institutional investments determine their loyalty.
@fredsimmons2793 I have read about all those stories. Very sad for a church that claims to be the remnant. I am an active member, but my loyalty is primarily to God.
Why is the church looking to the government to give her the power she needs? Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations....And lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matt. 28:18-20. The power that the church needs is the power of God and that power is unlimited and is in readiness for her use. There is no necessity, then, that the church should scheme to get possession of more power through the government. The church is to take the power that God provides, not depend upon the government. Trump promised to give the church back her power. Only God can give the church power. And as God has provided "all power" for his church, it is certain that the church needs nothing less than this. And it is equally certain that when the church schemes and bargains for power from earthly sources, she gets only that which is infinitely less than the power she must have to be successful. But God does not grant his power as an unconditional gift. He cannot allow his own omnipotence to be exercised independently of omniscient wisdom. To allow the church to use omnipotent power as she might herself think best to employ it, would produce the worst state of affairs that could be imaged. Finite wisdom directing infinite power would be a thing fearful to contemplate. The possession of this power, therefore, depends upon the CONNECTION OF THE CHURCH WITH GOD - not with the government. And this is indicated by the words of Christ, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." He said he would be with his church, not with the church connected to the government. Christ is the head of his church but it is possible for the church to disconnect herself from her divine head. It is possible for the church to become united to the world and thus separated from Christ. And this is done when the church enters into an unholy alliance with the governments of this world. Please read 2 Tim 3:1-5. It describes God's professed people in the last days who have a name, a FORM OF GODLINESS, but DENYING THE POWER THEREOF. We are warned, "from such turn away." They don't have the power of God, but are depending upon the power of the government to legislate morality. Jesus commissioned his disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel. He didn't command the government to do that! It is the power of God through the gospel that changes hearts, not laws made in legislative halls and enforced upon the people. In Revelation 13:11-18 the beast coming up out of the earth with two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon is the United States. The two horns represent civil and religious liberty - the freedom to worship God according to the dictates of our conscience. How does the United States speak? Through its laws. And soon it will be speak like a dragon through very oppressive laws enforced by our government. Just remember COVID. It was a dress rehearsal. Religious liberty will be stripped from those who truly love God and who obey him and keep all his commandments. The mark of the beast is not a chip or some visible mark on the forehead, it is enforced Sunday worship. Those who refuse to go along with that law will be persecuted, they will not be able to buy or sell and there will eventually be a death decree to rid them off the earth. This is the mark of the beast crisis and it will be over the commandments of God verses the commandments of men. Sunday (1st day) worship verses Sabbath (7th day) worship. Read the 10 commandments. God said to remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. And he said the seventh day is the Sabbath. It was man who changed the day from Sabbath to Sunday and this was prophesied in Daniel 7:25. It was the Roman Catholic Church who has tampered with the law of God and they freely admit to doing this. Jesus said he did NOT come to destroy the law but to fulfil the law. He said not ONE jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled. Read Matthew 5:17-20. Those who teach people to break God's holy law will be held accountable to God for leading people astray. Our country will make an IMAGE to the first beast (the papacy in Revelation 13:1-10). They Roman Catholic Church killed millions and millions of Christians during the dark ages when they went against her teachings. The church will again be persecuted when the Sunday law is passed thus the United States will be making an image to the first beast, the papacy who persecuted and killed true Christians. I pray someone will pay attention to what the Lord is saying through the prophetic lens.
There was absolutely no excitement for Harris, there were people who were blue no matter who and some who were not fans of trump but nothing to battle the army that trump had.
Christianity and belief in Religion is slowing going down. By the year 2050 there will be more non religious people than religious believers. As science and technology progresses religious beliefs regress.
Friends, this truly might be the most important interview I've done all year. If the conversation was helpful please make sure to give it a like so UA-cam recommends it to more people
@@TheNewEvangelicals I agree, very good interview!
1:25:12 Amen brother! This is the moment for Christians, and those of us who left the church because of its toxicity, to stand up and reclaim Christianity centered on Jesus’s teachings, focused on Matthew 25:35. We are the people who should be on the front lines of the protests, protecting our neighbors, speaking out about the denigration of Christ’s teachings by these evangelicals. If we call ourselves followers of Christ, then we were born in a time where we must rise to that occasion. I’m scared of this coming Trump administration because I know that I will be called to not just say that I’m a follower of Christ’s teachings, but to prove that with my actions. I studied the rise of fascism in Germany in college. I have visited Dachau and Auschwitz. I always wanted to believe that I would have resisted. I wouldn’t have been a bystander. I’m pretty sure that at some point in the next few years, I and many like me, will face that test. I will hate myself if I find I’m too scared or too willing to look away. I’m a white Christian suburban woman. It’s people like me. People who have the privilege to blend in with the fascists and look away from the suffering of others who are the ones who will make or break the resistance movement. We need to organize together and build a massive coalition with our brothers and sisters from the Black church and the social gospel Catholics. Those of us who know the scriptures and can quote Jesus’ words back at these wolves in sheep’s clothing. Who’s with me here!
I have been hoping, and praying that the evangelical church would realize what evil, and unChrist like movement they were following, but I have began to realize they are probably going to keep supporting it, and making excuses no matter what Trump, and company do.
I am!! A couple of other women (all from different churches) have found each other. We meet to talk and vent but also to pray, find out why God has brought us together. Fight for others, yes, but fight to bring his Gospel back to the light. We sometimes laugh and say we can’t come out as Christians against Trump to our fellow church goers, we don’t feel safe yet, but God will show us the way. Wish you were around to fellowship with us!! Love your vibe 😊
This shift towards Christian nationalism has created so many homeless evangelicals. It's very sad, my husband and I walked away in 2017.
@@MayaXimena123 thank you! I’m glad there are others out there that are starting to organize. I feel very alone here because all of the Christians I know are Trump supporters. Those that I’ve been meeting with are all people who either grew up in other faith traditions or grew up non-religious. I feel like I sometimes have to be a kind of decoder ring for them to understand what is going on with the end goals of the Trump administration and Project 2025. I sort of feel like having been exposed to the ideas in the 7 mountains mandate and end times prophesies gives me a kind of answer key that others don’t have. But it also makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it all and the way that they look forward to most of us burning in lakes of fire. And at the same time, I used to be part of that community. I used to think that it was what Jesus taught. I think so many are being deceived by these grifting false prophets. Thank you for your message! It give me hope! 🙏💕
@hillarymurphy5256 Same here. I'm AA and I noticed the shift around 2014. After Obama things got weird and I was in predominantly white churches. It went from feeling like we were trying to have racial reconciliation, to me being the good negro to full on racial degeneration. Left one church for another that felt more cohesive only for them to just have a toxic corporate vibe that put the edifice over people. My mom worked there and they made her sign an NDA. Why does a church need an NDA? Tried going to a black only church but just doesn't feel right. I want the "melting pot" but it just seems like were more divided now then we were 20 years ago. So I'm without a church and suffer from PTSD. I tried a house church and it had the same issues as nationalist Christians. It's weird out here
1:06 I have a now-former friend who used to go to NAR services. She took me to one once, and I remember feeling extremely uncomfortable there. I knew something was off. I honestly wanted to throw up. I refused to participate in the tunnel thing they were doing. I watched, confused, as people started falling on the floor. When my friend asked if I wanted to go out for dinner with her and her friends afterwards, I told her I had a busy day the next day and needed to get going. I never went back to that church.
That's not what ended our friendship. Our politics were becoming quite different, and it was the first thing to burst the appearance of our friendship. However, as you've said, the two - her politics and NAR association - are linked. I am now very scared of her and for her.
In October of 2020, I started up a Bible study. We are still together, and now I feel led to keep going with it. All of us in there are Democrats who consider ourselves, primarily, followers of Jesus. I have also started writing my memoirs/a devotional that will put together all the Bible verses that show to others what God says about Himself and Jesus. Maybe that can be part of the constructing!
I'm a former Christian now atheist who has really enjoyed this station. Today's conversation was very educational. I'm fairly educated on the Bible but honestly, the Jehu story was totally missed by me. Thank you and keep up the FANTASTIC work.
My mom is obsessed with Jonathan Cahn, like to a fault. I've received maybe 6 of his books from her and read none. I'm also an atheist. I was going to reveal that to my parents this year and I don't know that I will now. Hearing his name and that prophecy was a little triggering. I can only imagine she voted because of that prophecy, and after I explained everything I thought Trump would do. It's just sad.
@johnnymatias3027 Jonathan Kahn had an interpretation of Trump’s assassination attempt. Butler = ____, etc. But, he missed one very important detail, that the assassin came from Bethel Park. It's really surprising that a messianic jew would miss that Beth El = House of God. Ask your mom why he would miss this?
Sorry. Cahn.
@@johnnymatias3027 I totally understand. Although liberal christians I chose to not tell my parents that I became an atheist and it just wouldn't have added anything positive. They both died within a couple of years and I still feel I made the right decision for me/them.
@lisajones3907 there are hundreds of similarly dark sounding associations I've casually heard that could paint Trump in the light of the anti-Christ but they don't. Why? I can only imagine group buy in to his promises. I reject that form of thinking altogether, but it shocks me sometimes. I mean, gosh, there have always been associations from the Biblical apocalypse with a war Russia started causing destruction in Israel and spreading to the world, a world leader who stops the violence and takes a head wound and unified everyone with his seemingly magical ability to fix stuff. I couldn't possibly draw more parallels with the pre-Trump accepted conception of the anti-Christ and Trump himself but they seem utterly blind it.
I won't lie, the uniformity and rapidity with which the entire establishment evangelicals have turned Trump into a messianic figure makes me almost believe in prophecy lol. Like, should have been obvious, God would make the *church* unify around the anti-Christ, not a bunch of heathens so it's some obvious, easy battle of good and evil.
28:50 “The ONLY way you get there is by denying reality.” YES!! Thank you!! I am SO TIRED of responding with facts to arguments that deny reality! THANK YOU!
Yes, and call me the one who has abandoned God.
As a non Christian I’m looking at all the Christians that haven’t been bamboozled to take your religion back!🙏
Some of us are trying. 😢
Dear Tim, I think you are correct in saying that this may be the most important interview that you have had this year! It certainly has been the most informative and insightful. I am totally blown away by the by Matt’s knowledge of the landscape. It so helps me to know what we are dealing with here. I wish I had time to thank you properly for your UA-cam channel and share my story of deconstructing as I have only been subscribed to your channel for a few months now. I have been deconstructing for years and reconstructing for years but I wasn’t aware of the term and didn’t know that was what I was doing until more recently. So much more to say but fight now I have to bolt. Sooo until my next transmission. Keep doing what you doing brother.
This interview led the algorithm of UA-cam to Matt Taylor's lecture "Has Evangelical Christianity become a threat to American Democracy?" at Westmont College. I am so thankful for having had the opportunity to hear Matt Taylor. I will share it in my little circle.
Thanks Tim for this channel! It has been a life line for me! I left my church over Christian Nationalism, and had a moment of knowing that everything they are fighting for is wrong. I really have become more progressive in the last 5 years while serving at a mercy ministry here in the states. I really had focused on what God showed me through the words, and actions of how to live. I quickly realized I could not abandon my faith, and that I couldn’t keep going to my home church, no matter how sanitized it was being presented. I have lost my whole community, and all the people I have considered my tribe my whole life. I also knew I had to speak out. I am a very non confrontational senior, who has never stood up for anything in my life. I have used Facebook to do this, and since I have about 500 friends, and only around 5 who are supportive my views. It hasn’t been easy, and have been told I am not a Christian, and one even told me I am going to hell. I have mainly voiced my views on Christian nationalism, and stayed silent on my newer views of social justice, LBGTQ +, abortion, and other things that would definitely get me called not Christian. When my views on these subjects started changing, I really thought I could just be silent, and still accepted by my evangelical church. I realize that shouldn’t happen. I am attending a church that is evangelical, but does teach Christian Nationalism. Fortunately, I have a daughter I can discuss these things with, and have found a few like minded people. The future is frightening,band I am so grateful to God that I was not swept away in it.
I grew up with one foot in evangelical fundamentalist Christianity, and one foot in mainline Protestantism (United Methodist at a progressive congregation). I was blessed that, while one side was telling me to exclude, to marginalize, and to value imperialism, the other side was telling me to love, to serve. To learn, to question, to study broadly through many Christian traditions, and also was not judgmental when I took comparative religion seriously. I never had to deconstruct, because I was always deconstructing while I was constructing.
And even with that, as an adult, I’ve realized how many unconscious biases I had internalized from the Right. But I already had the framework to look at those with clear eyes every time something has come up.
Where will we, as people who DO want to fallow Jesus go from here, and how willing will we be to lay aside our comforts to non-violently fight for freedom and dignity for everyone? I don’t know yet. But I know I’m thinking about it. And I think that’s an important first step.
Thanks Tim and TNE for all the work you do.
I left Christianity about 18 mos ago and after consuming content to help me understand what was going on, I started learning about Xian Nationalism. When t ran for office again, I got hyper informed about politics.
I am in a place where I think I have a perspective that is very zoomed in and I never would have seen any of what is happening not just to our govt, but the church and has now moved on to distort the faith. I have a problem with that because I know the horrible things that people will do in the name of God, but I remember and still live out the true goodness that Jesus taught.
This movement never mentions Jesus nor do they refer to the New Testament. This movement will grow more and more until mainstream Christianity catches on to the harm it is doing to the church and it has to happen now. I feel like I’m trying to pull everyone off the tracks and everyone seems more content to just become mist from the damage the train is bringing with it.
I appreciate your voice so much. While I do understand people leaving the church, there are those of us who are very much believers and are just feeling so lost. Not lost in faith, but lost in community. And if history does repeat and more and more leave the narrow path, then we will need each other even more. Thank you.
As a secular individual, religion and Christianity in itself had fascinated me. My mom encouraged us to look at all types of faiths to become well rounded individuals. Saying that the nation needs more theologists to combat the nationalist narrative is something I agree should happen. It seems to me that secular theologists as well as those within the Christian faith would be beneficial in composing such a discussion.
@@sw3783 I'm not sure if this applies, but I did look up whether or not a secular person could be a theologian and from what I've seen it is possible. Not in answering whether or not God exists (which would be more the philosophy of it), but how the Bible as well as the history and culture surrounding it reflects and can benefit in today's culture. A Secular individual can find wisdom and truth (truth in a philosophical and spiritual sense) in the Bible just as much as in other religious texts. I find a lot of what TNE has shown to follow much of my own personal doctrine despite me not being a follower of Christ. So, I feel it's completely possible for a secular individual to be theological and perhaps should be in order to be more welcoming during difficult times.
“Time to construct.” Yes!! I am in!! Dear Matthew, please get on anything other than X so that I can follow you. Much love and appreciation to you both, Tim and Matthew. Thank you so much for inviting us share in this important conversation!
Before you fall in love with "The Black Church," understand. The Black Church is not a monolith and most have been infected with the Prosperity Gospel. There are confessing churches in the black community and in the history of the black church are voices that need to be heard today; so do love and be loved, but do not be seduced.
Remember this
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
Sometimes you're made to feel as if your love's a crime
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight
You gotta kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight
I think this “Prosperity Gospel” churches is the Christian Right’s weakest link, unless these churches are politically aligned with more Far Right churches…and these churches tend to racial. There is a way to use the notion of a “prosperity gospel” by refocusing the church’s mission to be laying up one’s riches in heaven by their good works, rather than it all being about the strength of one’s piety. The Gospels are ripe for this message to be spread around rather Apocalypse 24/7.
I know I will never again trust Christian leaders in the way I did most of my life. I got caught up in the 80’s in the Jerry Falwell moral majority. The is how I came to be a Republican that would vote for any other party because of abortion. I was a young Mom with two little ones, and we were fed so much fear. I know I was part of the beginning of this awful movement, but by the grace of God saw the way out.
@@karenadams882Same for me.
Matthew Taylor is awesome. His new book is a must-read. There’s just one point I’d like to make. The election was, in fact, close. Out of 60 elections, Trump’s electoral college win is ranked 44th and his popular vote win is ranked 50th, one of the lowest since the 19th century, with only a 1.47% margin. The majority of voters voted for someone else. No wide margin. No landslide. No mandate.
1:35:05 Woo!! I'm getting chills. Christianity is so deep. I don't think I'll ever understand it, but there's so much there to dig through that I'm just excited to learn more about it even if I never really piece it all together
You said it my friend SHARED VALUES I think this is the concept of our future to be able to include atheist and a diverse number of faiths
Also, we must not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. The enemy of my enemy is my ally.
If only there was a Real separation of Church and State... And NO Lobbying...SMH Thing's that have been forgotten.. And most importantly making our capital part of our country.... Instead of DC...
Orban's Hungary is the closest example of where we are headed...
I use to work with a guy Tony Orban, and he would say to me "My cousins the president? of Hungary" (were both Hungarian ancestry and grew up in the same farm area where a lot of Hungarians settled in Saskatchewan) of which I responded "so what, I'm related to Atilla the Hun" needless to say, we both got a good chuckle.
Fascinating. Thank you for this discussion! The jezebel sh*t was really revealing and disturbing. I’d love to see more about the way that North American Evangelicals (Canada too) have been taught that the bible is for us, that it’s a literal road map and all prophecies point to our history? I’ve really struggled with biblical interpretation being so flawed and unreliable and been unable to read it for close to a decade. This is one of the biggest problems I have and would love to see it discussed by a scholar in the field. Thank you!!
love & solidarity from Vienna, Austria american friends
your work is essential to fester an organized resistance ✌️
"la solidaridad es la ternura de los pueblos" 🤗
Siamo tutti antifascisti!
I just finished listening to the book! So much good information, and also very disturbing. It is discouraging to know that the people who need it most will never read it. That being said, thank you so much for your research and hard work putting it all together.
Thank you for having Matthew Taylor on the show! I just finished his book Saturday.
This was excellent, thank you. I appreciate hearing the scholars concerned because my evangelical family thinks I am overreacting and/or have been brainwashed.
Incredible conversation. I will need to listen to it a few times to really get everything. Tim, you MUST invite Frank Schaeffer on your program. He has his own channel "It Has to Be Said". I am sure you know who he is but if not, please look him up.
Keep up the great work!!!
I remember my home church (conservative Mennonite church) showed the film he produced for his dad (How we should then live) in evening services mid 80s or so. Now I've left that church and read Frank's later autobiography. Now maga has taken over my home church. (I did hear from one elderly member who realizes that Trump lies all the time). The pastor has written "pastors thoughts" that are pro maga talking points before the election. Sickening.
Yes!!! That would be so good.
What a powerful chat. WOW! Shared to my friends and family in hopes to get you guys some new eyes. Love y’all at TNE.
I appreciate you Clarifying that a great deal of evil was and is Christian. That is not me taking the Lord’s name in vain. It is a recognition of fact and stating the truth.
A note from waaaay across the aisle- the friendly atheist issued an open invitation in one of his videos that he's open to working with people of faith where goals align. I dunno if your ministry stretches that far, but a discussion between y'all on christian nationalism would be epic listening for the (probably only person in the) crossover audience. The idea that moral people everywhere have to fight this is essential.
keep editing lol- you can't become rush as long as you preach from love and not fear.
Excellent and very necessary conversation. thank you both. 🧸
Amazing amazing episode. This was so insightful.
Sir Tim you are correct, the most important interview
Powerful interview. Thank you.
What an amazing video.
This program is perfect for me. I am so thankful for your voice and message and community. I look forward to moving forward because evangelical theology is all i have known but left a long time ago. I am ordering the book now. 🥰
Great show! I'll have to replay to digest more.
I'm ready to rebuild and reconstruct my life and society. But I won't do it with reliance on a savior. I worship the universe on my feet looking up. I reject the belief that I'm an inherent sinner. If I wrong another I owe them an apology and am in their debt. I don't believe in accountability to an omniscient observer or organized religion. I value human life, freedom, authenticity, individuality, and sovereignty. I believe in democratic progressivism. I am not a Christian in the traditional sense but I look up to Christ as a moral figure of historic importance. I'm ready to build something new with what I've chosen to keep.
Most Christians misunderstand their own religion. They have been taught twisted scripture for so long that they cannot tell lies from truth. Sin is not about disobedience to God. Sin is about damage to oneself and to others and to harmonious relationships. Evangelicals (or Evilungelicals) are preparing to do much damage to many people and our country.
A scary but excellent chat with Matt Taylor. We do need to understand what makes Trumpism and these Christian Nationalists tick. The more we understand our "enemy", the better position to win the battle.
Feeling doom and gloom for sure. But definitely appreciate the information. I am so happy I found your channel. It resonates.
This conversation just gave me so much hope! 🙌💚🙌💚🙌💚
It reminds me of the parable of the sower. The word has been choked out by concerns of the world.
Many evangelicals have lost their faith in God to judge. Now they want to usurp God's role. How arrogant they are. Where is their humility? They have proclaimed Jesus as too "woke" for them.
Thank you so much, Matt, for mentioning how much Trump polluted the information ecosystem!!! This has not not been pointed out enough, and it’s such a relief to hear it in this convo. Thank you!! 11:36
I wish my evangelical family would watch this but they are not open to this reality. That’s the problem, being unwilling to event entertain the facts.
This is true for every argument. Try to talk to Christian leaders about anything you contradict in their teaching of a Bible passage and you will be ostracized. This is the scariest part of this message, imo. I could never have articulated what Matt Taylor says but it all resonates with what I have felt in my spirit. I am so afraid if what he will do to innocent people.
What is so often missed with the verse The first shall be last and the last shall be first is that this is not a call to flip things 180°. It’s a call to flip things 90°; those crossing the finish line first as last and last as first it is those crossing the finish line all at the same time.
I feel at home here, great conversation 🙏
Thank you for sharing!
Tim & Matt, thank you so much for this discussion! Like Matt, I grew up in an Evangelical church. I'm still very close to most people from that life. I am so concerned how my friends & family that grew up with me & have the same values & morals can support Republicans.
This was an amaaaaazing episode
Incredible conversation. I’m an atheist, but all of us who are against Trumpism share a common cause now. We’re in it together.
Against Trump, but for Satan.
Amen. Or to say it in a more atheistic way, SO BE IT!
Fantastic episode.
I'm still trying to understand how the Moral Majority and voices like James Dobson shaped the political imagination for a generation of Christians. Also have a bit of sideeye for the SBC and to what degree prominent voices came from there and helped mold white American Christianity. ... so that we better know how to speak to these people.
The local church served as the main outlet for white Christian supremacy propaganda and it was welcomed by pastors, clergy, and congregants
I agree with you. The moral majority, missed the foundation on Christianity. I don't understand their interpretation of Christ.
My wife and I used to follow Dobson for a few years even visiting his site in Colorado when my kids were young. Changed my tune when his political arm of his organization prayed for rain during the Democratic convention in Denver that year.
When you realize that this group used abortion to coalesce all Christians into the republican party because they were upset about desegregation. The goal was to gain power in all parts of government to get back to where they, white males, are the only ones in charge. You can understand what this long game mission is. Throw in how the prosperity gospel allowed them to gain massive wealth, which allows power. It's very easy to see where we've (Christians) have been led and why.
Thank you! I’ve already had the experience of confronting the Jezebel argument with a couple of long term friends and I think they caught a glimpse of the inaccuracy of the current application. It’s worth it to take the trouble of having these conversations.
Thanks for this necessary and urgent conversation. Those of us with a faith tradition need these kinds of spaces to help us think through coalition building as we move forward.
There was a populist movement from the left. It was Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. They have great ideas, however they have also been effectively marginalized by the "socialist" boogeyman label. The right has done a great job scaring Americans of anything that even has a whiff of socialism, even though most wouldn't know how to define socialism.
It's hate in the heart....you rather burn everything down than let another person prosper.
Lord; have mercy!
I really appreciated this particular podcast. I’ve listened to his work on white straight American Jesus. I’ve been involved in NAR theory before Trump. I stopped going to those kinds of meetings 2016 when certain prophets backed Trump. I felt very sad when Matt discussed the current Jehu stuff. That breaks my heart too. I was brought up Catholic but have been involved with charismatic nondenominational churches since age 16. I stopped going to my church a couple months ago because of the rhetoric about demonic democrats. I’m currently reading Augustine’s homilies on the book of John and often cry when I’m reading it. BTW the second Vatican Council was in 1962 - ‘63. It ushered in the charismatic movement in the Catholic Church and the nuns in my school introduced reading the Bible instead of catechism.
People have continually said trump can't do things. So far he has done many things people have said he couldn't or wouldn't. I think people are underestimating him. He's dumb, yes, but that really doesn't mean anything. Bush jr wasn't smart and he did quite a bit of damage.
Trump is an ignoramus, but he is not stupid (as many people "mis-underestimated" him).
The founders did not anticipate two parties as extra-governmental agencies. That duopoly is what has subverted the electoral college.
We scientists who are also Christians to make that point.
54:59 I wish you would have mentioned Opus Dei. I know it starts to sound really strange, but that’s the organization, sect, movement, Cult. Very interesting.
Scripture explaining Trump, MAGA, & the Right Wing media = 2 Timothy 3:1-9 - “But know this: Hard times will come in the last days. People will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, proud, demeaning, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, without love for what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding an outward form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid these people. For among them are those who worm their way into households and deceive gullible women overwhelmed by sins and led astray by a variety of passions, always learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so these also resit the truth. They are men who are corrupt in mind and worthless in regard to faith. But they will not make further progress, for their foolishness will be clear to all, as was the foolishness of Jannes and Jambres.
I’m 18 minutes in but no one’s talking Christian Nationalism yet. How in hell did I click this?
That book is scary. I had to put it down for a minute.
"Such a fantastic podcast with amazing info! The only thing holding you back is your thumbnail. Want it to be as cool as you? Just reply to my comment, and I’ll design a creative, spicy, and professional thumbnail for you!" keep going gentleman ❤
I grew up Catholic I understand all about Vatican 2
You guys make me want to become religious 😅
This is just a minor thing, but am I wrong in thinking that when JD Vance said he was "creating stories" regarding Springfield Ohio, he was using that word in the sense of a scoop or headline? He was quick afterwards to say as much, which leads me to believe that this wasn't an admission. I do believe that the narratives surrounding Springfield's immigrant population were untrue, so the idea that he was creating stories is effectively correct, but that's not the idea Vance was intending to communicate in that interview, right?
New evangelicals theme song: “I’m shameless”. Never knew Tim was a Garth fan😂
The word Christian is mentioned in the bible 3 times, the word disciple, 261 times. The message that Jesus preached was the immediate availability of the Kingdom of God. After he said he had been given all authority in the heavens and on earth, he told his followers to make apprentices/disciples/students, learners of him, to engulf them into the Trinitarian reality of living and to teach them how to do what he prescribed.
A person can call themselves a Christian and not choose to be a disciple of Jesus.
So to punish Jezebel for worshipping Baal and sacrificing children, God told Jehu to *checks notes* slaughter a bunch of innocent children??
God slaughtered a lot of babies in the Bible. My pastors could never answer my questions about this when I was a child.
@ isn’t it funny how all the questions we instinctively had as kids about the Bible ended up being spot on?
@@ekxikasyep 😮
Why do the evangelicals never talk about the Gospels , for me Jesus is found in the Gospels. That is all I need.
Most of the scholars I study talk constantly about the gospels. 🤷 That said, that is definitely not "all you need". God gave us the entire Bible for a reason.
You can't have the New Testament without the Old...The Old pointed to Jesus, the New is the fulfillment. (Matthew. 5: 17-20).
Institutional Distrust is best typified by OBama’s High Speed Rail. $9B approves 1/09. Today not one project is complete.
If a group of people need the strong arm of the state to enforce and uphold their gospel, it's not a true gospel.
What you said isn't a true statement. It's your narrative.
@@rickspalding3047 If Christian men feel it is their "God given" right to force their faith onto others, their faith is Godless. Christianity is about a person accepting Jesus as their savior, not forcing Jesus onto them. That is the objective of men, not God.
@@rickspalding3047 The state doesn't need to force everyone to believe in gravity in order for us all to feel its effects. Truth stands on its own. If it needs to be legislated or enforced, it isn't true. Christian nationalists preach another gospel, and may it be accursed before it completely dims the light of true witness of the body of Christ.
@grepora where is this coming from? are you trying to say church and state should be seperated?. Other wise im not sure what your trying to say
@@benjiyogi639 Christian nationalism is essentially a majority Christian nation that believes in sovereignty. Your talking about enforcement. This is a category error.
Science is not a pagan religion. But neither is it always 💯 factual accurate for all of time. It changes as information and times change, as technology to understand and study our world changes and as we think of new questions, better questions and outside of the box questions to ask. Science is only as good as the questions we can think to ask of it. Knowing this helps me to understand what this woman was perhaps trying to say poorly
A scientist will never say they know 100% for sure; and that has been used against science ('see they are not certain; so it is a belief'). New tech allows the same questions to have deeper/further answers. However the preponderous of evidence is that new science refines our understanding of a matter. Eg with all the evidence for a globe earth in a solar system that is not going to be overturned in favour of a flat earth. Our (humanity's) knowledge may increase - we know understand that the globe is not an exact sphere but has a chubby middle. However the basics of a globe earth that was recognised by ancient Greek scholars is still true.
So agree, science is not perfect and I think post WW2 there was a massive celebration of science and technology. The development of medical options - medication and surgical; the constant flow of new tech. I think by the 1970s the advert to convince the buyer had a man in a white coat. If we didn't have the answer we soon would. But then even as tech continued to developed massively we also had to face up to medicine not having all the answers; and disappointment that cure for x is not possible yet. So many ideas of what life would be like by 2000 didn't happen. There is still poverty; the 'wicked still flourish' ..... etc
Science never promised to fix the world - but people used science to suggest that. The result is a backlash and lack of trust in scientific knowledge. Science didn't cure all illnesses and now there are many who argue that even the treatments we do have, that save lives, are not to be trusted - whilst offering to sell totally untested supplements; new age type 'cures' leaving people dying unnecessarily.
It is why distrust of science and poor science education leads to elected officials asking in debates why swallowing a camera designed to assess the stomach and guts isn't used to assess pregnancies. Or believing that ectopic embryos can be saved.
No science doesn't have all the answers; but that doesn't mean it can be written off; and good education includes science; how it is explored; its limits but also where it can be trusted.
But isn’t putting Jesus says your Lord and Savior doing exactly what people are doing with Trump? Couldn’t 2000 years from now people look at Trump as Jesus has gotten built into? The historical Jesus never claimed to be a Lord and savior. That is the sociopolitical system that put that on him in order to use Christianity to cement patriarchy as the social political structure via Constantine. We can do better in this day and age if we learn this history and take it to heart on what it’s teaching us. We must do better if we want to get out of this hole we are in.
Definitely think context is missing.
On the other hand, there are those who take issue with science because they have been trained to put dogma over data (misquoting Dan McClellan).
I think saying sciense is not always 100% factual accurate does not do science justice. Scientific facts are the scientific consensus until proven otherwise and a huge part of science is the process of trying to disprove facts. Science is ever evolving and while not set is stone it has rigor. I think explaining it that way gives people who have no experience with academics aand science more understanding on why science changes.
@@kimthegrey how is what you said anything different in reality than what I said? Or is this just semantics?
Ok i’m off-topic: The WSJ reports that the UN’s Special Advisor on the Prevention of Genocide has been dismissed after refusing to say that the campaign in Gaza fits the definition of a genocide based on the evidence.
The history of the crusades is incorrect here. The kind of mass slaughters described didn’t start until the fourth or fifth crusade.
How about Theology that shows the Red Letters in the New Testament and messages and teachings of Jesus. His mandates.
The problem is no one knows what Jesus actually said. Mark, the earliest Gospel was written about 40 years after Jesus' death. Jesus spoke Aramaic, but the Gospels were written in Koine Greek (someone had to have translated them). There are presumed earlier sayings documents (such as the theoretical Q Document), but they did not survive. Dr. Dennis R. McDonald has shown that the Gospels imitated the Odyssey by Homer with direct parallels. The Gospels were literary works for inspiration and theology, they are not historically accurate. That is why the Bible cannot be understood literally. It is all parable.
While I appreciate much of what he is saying (although missed parts in the middle while moving about), the part at 1:17:35 Is a bunch of simplistic, pseudo-scientific claptrap that misrepresents evolutionary theory and understanding - in fact it's the same set of bogus, immature, "alpha male"- existentialist ideas that are spread by the "Rogansphere" and right-wing evangelicals that are stuck in a perpetual adolescence. Chuck Norris is a creation of Hollywood - in fact much or what right-wing evangelicals believe is a creation of Hollywood - which is ironic considering how much the right-wing uses SOME of "Hollywood" as a knee-jerk anger inducer.
Go back to Genesis and the Garden of Eden. The first thing in creation that G-D declares "not good" is when it comes to Man being alone. They look for a possible helpmate in all of creation and find nothing -- so G-D creates Woman out of Man. In the Chassidic interpretation -- backed by scripture -- both are being escorted out of Eden within 48 hours. Some help, right?
But that was exactly what was intended, and the Woman helped Adam see the light. For centuries, Christians have not understood the interpretation -- hiding in plain sight!! And if you get Genesis out of whack, the rest of the books go right down the tubes. (Of course, Jews do not believe in original sin. Ridiculous.) So much misogyny results from the standard interpretation.
couple thoughts. at the beginning of the podcast you talked about the media having some responsibility for bringing on trump because of their quest to not appear biased, they did hit how dangerous a trumps presidency could be, and yet when you had the pro Palestinian on your show and he talked about the danger of Kamala, and how the democrats did not allow a Palestinian to speak and how all Americans were responsible for Palestine. you barely did any push back. For instance. I am a liberal man who has protested Isreal's treatment of Palestine since before that man was born. And it has caused rifts in my family relations. And you did not stress just how dangerous not only to American's a trump presidency would be, but how dangerous his presidency would be to Palestine. Imagine an emboldened Netanyahu who has discussed using tactical nuclear weapons on Palestine now feeling free to do that. I do not know what will happen. but you let that man make statements that you barely challenged which were dangerous. For instance, if all Americans are responsible for what their government does, then doesn't that in turn mean all palistineans are responsible for what their leadership has done? thus making the genocide justifiable? do you see how insane that is? And how about his theory that palistineans were peace loving and would not destroy Israel? isn't that the same as the christian church saying that they were peace loving, and yet supported the crusades? I understand the idea that not all christians and not all Palistinians want these dangerous things, and yet Palistineans voted for Hamas. Oh.. but arent they justified? isn't that what the trump supporters are saying? I almost stopped listening to your podcast because of that conversation, and some other things that you have said, but I am glad that I didn't because this was a worthwhile conversation.
The only thing dangerous to Palestine is hamas.
58:40 Even Christians! Let's not forget the Sack of Constantinople.
Hello guys. I love the conversation and the grave concerns expressed. We are to take up our cross, not the sword. Note this however: HHS tweeted "Happy Pansexual/Panromantic Day" in recent days Why is the federal government pursuing this kind of "education". The great mass of Americans don't want to hear this - it is not ok stuff. Is this not why Harris was sure to lose? Evangelical Christians who have grandchildren like I do must never face a day where their granddaughter is told at public school that she can be a boy, and hear this without parental input. This is not just a bogeyman/hoax, but is actually occurring some places, is it not? How do we adhere to scriptural teaching and avoid fascism? Any ideas, anyone?
Yooo I wish you could have Hasan Piker on I think y’all would have a really good conversation
Ellen G White of the Seventh Day Adventist church wrote The Great Controversy over 165 years ago and wrote about these evangelical and christain nationalist powers and how they would form a churchstate union and establish and mandate a Sunday day of worship in the U.S,and that this would constitute the Mark of the beast.I hope Tim,you and your audience would read this work.Thanks for all this information.
And yet it is major individuals within the SDA church that are full on endorsing Trump and ushering in what they have preached against for 165 years
I think the Seventh day Adventist church opposed to the Christian nationalism movement but I know a fair amount that supports Trump because of the abortion issue. I personally voted for Kamala.
@@marcosfranco2383 Most of this right wing support in the SDA church comes from a institutional level and a fundamentalist strain and a parochial culture rooted in third world nations,where Adventists have had most of their growth(19 million compared to 850,000 members in US.) THESE country's produce very paternalistic cultures like in Africa where the christain and SDA church's supported criminalizing homosexuals and abortion.Also in Rawanda during the genocide 10,000 Adventists and Pathfinder Adventists helped in the slaughter killing people.The Adventists would stop killing on the Sabbath,then go right back at it the rest of the week.This republican strain of Adventism has its sympathys with the church's investments in the stock markett and sovereign wealth funds.THEIR institutional investments determine their loyalty.
@fredsimmons2793 I have read about all those stories. Very sad for a church that claims to be the remnant. I am an active member, but my loyalty is primarily to God.
@@marcosfranco2383 Amen,and blessings on you and yours Marcos.
Director/camera operator: Pod up a little next time.
Why is the church looking to the government to give her the power she needs? Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations....And lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matt. 28:18-20. The power that the church needs is the power of God and that power is unlimited and is in readiness for her use. There is no necessity, then, that the church should scheme to get possession of more power through the government. The church is to take the power that God provides, not depend upon the government. Trump promised to give the church back her power. Only God can give the church power. And as God has provided "all power" for his church, it is certain that the church needs nothing less than this. And it is equally certain that when the church schemes and bargains for power from earthly sources, she gets only that which is infinitely less than the power she must have to be successful.
But God does not grant his power as an unconditional gift. He cannot allow his own omnipotence to be exercised independently of omniscient wisdom. To allow the church to use omnipotent power as she might herself think best to employ it, would produce the worst state of affairs that could be imaged. Finite wisdom directing infinite power would be a thing fearful to contemplate.
The possession of this power, therefore, depends upon the CONNECTION OF THE CHURCH WITH GOD - not with the government. And this is indicated by the words of Christ, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." He said he would be with his church, not with the church connected to the government. Christ is the head of his church but it is possible for the church to disconnect herself from her divine head. It is possible for the church to become united to the world and thus separated from Christ. And this is done when the church enters into an unholy alliance with the governments of this world.
Please read 2 Tim 3:1-5. It describes God's professed people in the last days who have a name, a FORM OF GODLINESS, but DENYING THE POWER THEREOF. We are warned, "from such turn away." They don't have the power of God, but are depending upon the power of the government to legislate morality. Jesus commissioned his disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel. He didn't command the government to do that! It is the power of God through the gospel that changes hearts, not laws made in legislative halls and enforced upon the people.
In Revelation 13:11-18 the beast coming up out of the earth with two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon is the United States. The two horns represent civil and religious liberty - the freedom to worship God according to the dictates of our conscience. How does the United States speak? Through its laws. And soon it will be speak like a dragon through very oppressive laws enforced by our government. Just remember COVID. It was a dress rehearsal. Religious liberty will be stripped from those who truly love God and who obey him and keep all his commandments. The mark of the beast is not a chip or some visible mark on the forehead, it is enforced Sunday worship. Those who refuse to go along with that law will be persecuted, they will not be able to buy or sell and there will eventually be a death decree to rid them off the earth. This is the mark of the beast crisis and it will be over the commandments of God verses the commandments of men. Sunday (1st day) worship verses Sabbath (7th day) worship. Read the 10 commandments. God said to remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. And he said the seventh day is the Sabbath. It was man who changed the day from Sabbath to Sunday and this was prophesied in Daniel 7:25. It was the Roman Catholic Church who has tampered with the law of God and they freely admit to doing this. Jesus said he did NOT come to destroy the law but to fulfil the law. He said not ONE jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled. Read Matthew 5:17-20. Those who teach people to break God's holy law will be held accountable to God for leading people astray. Our country will make an IMAGE to the first beast (the papacy in Revelation 13:1-10). They Roman Catholic Church killed millions and millions of Christians during the dark ages when they went against her teachings. The church will again be persecuted when the Sunday law is passed thus the United States will be making an image to the first beast, the papacy who persecuted and killed true Christians.
I pray someone will pay attention to what the Lord is saying through the prophetic lens.
maybe you should start your own bible study. the new evangelical bible study.
There was absolutely no excitement for Harris, there were people who were blue no matter who and some who were not fans of trump but nothing to battle the army that trump had.
Jay Who?! Never heard of such a name?!
Great interview thank you. (you could bring the camera angel up a bit so we don't get the bottoms of feet)
Y E S
Christianity and belief in Religion is slowing going down. By the year 2050 there will be more non religious people than religious believers. As science and technology progresses religious beliefs regress.
Even Cyrus wasn’t this out of control.
I haven't started watching this yet, but Is Matt a Christian?
Are you for or against wasps?
Terrifying y’all but so necessary
Populism is inherently authoritarian, left or right.
Hey, Matt - I've just been to twitter, and your account's been suspended. I guess you must have pricked a nerve!
1:05:00 I had to sit down...... I don't know what to say
This narrative your suggesting is based out of fear, what values do you think should be instilled and preached?