The West, the Left, and Indian politics with
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- Опубліковано 13 жов 2023
- Vimoh Live is a bi-weekly call-in show where I talk with callers about religion, culture, and atheism.
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Nationalism : When you feel a sense of Indianess when you help a fellow Indian in another country.
Hyper Nationalism : When you feel a sense of Indianness when you think you are the only Indian in India.
So true
Oh here we go with the civic nationalism garbage again. 😂
India needs to be ultra nationalist because we don't have cheap access to high quality resources nor cheap energy. If you had one of the two, you could have realistically run a welfare state, bribing communities to stay in line like Russia, select Arab states or the union of UK. Our most abundant resource is population and agriculture. We are in the industrial era where agriculture isnt as valuable, so we sell people and communities. The only thing that can stop it is a form of morality, nationalism.
Patriotism: you are ready die for your country
Nationalism : you kill for the country
As a rajput i agree with arun.
great livestream today Vimoh, couldn't join today unfortunately. Will come over next week. (Neo Carvak here)
20:00 Deeps, you are not pain. You are the experiencer of pain. Pain is an experience, and you ‘have’ pain, you are NOT pain. When you have an image come up in your mind, you are the watcher of that image. You are not the image in itself. This is similar to how we don’t say, ‘I am fever’, we instead say, ‘I HAVE fever’
Well explained indeed
Since you think in terms of time, you say, "I am the experiencer of pain". But the experience derives its existence from me. The experience i.e. "feeling of pain","sight of a tree","thought currents" don't have independent existence experientially. Yes, they are caused by a myriad of different processes. But experientially it is me. When you experience pain and think "I am experiencing pain" that thought is another object that appears in you-the first person experience.
@@deepankulandaisami9544Hey deeps lets end this bs once n for all. Tell me which of the following options is close to what you believe.
If i stub my toe on a rock
1. I am imagining that i stubbed my toe on rock and the painful experience is also creation of my own.
2. I stubbed my toe on a rock that exists outside my imagination and doing so i GAINED painful experience.
I am become death
@@spuriusscapula4829 what do you mean by that? Both birth and death are unsolved mysteries.
I can create a hypothesis.
It seems to me that the stuff out of which the self i.e. the experience is made out of seems to remain unaffected by its contents. So I think it neither appears at birth nor disappears at death. I suppose it continues to exist through the chemical reactions and heat flows that occur after the death of the brain if consciousness is a weak emergence. But this is a hypothetical assumption, which may be wrong.
This was fun, Arun is a good guest
Shoutout to good old Raquaza on Arun's hat!
The most important determinant which makes things easier to understand is simple & straightforward sensory perception.
Yes !
Good stream
@Deeps you are very creative, stay creative.
thank you :)
That was no debunking of the Fine tuning argument at all ..Not that the fine tuning argument is self sufficient in itself btw ..
There was. You may find such debunks on CosmicSkeptic. It was quite thorough really.
Deeps seems to be talking about a mix of solipsism with the Hindu doctrine. We can see the tree, but we will only see the tree from our subjective perspective and not for what the tree actually is from its perspective.
Right. The tree exists independently of my watching. If I am aware that the vision of the tree is a projection of something out there in "me", I am in touch with the actual evident fact. So all the time I am the experience, not a separate experiencer experiencing 'the world'. Please note I am not saying that an objective "the world" doesn't exist. It exists. We are all sharing this planet Earth. But all I know about it is its projection in me. I find the "me" to be the experience itself, which is not properly accounted for by the standard model of particle physics.
@@deepankulandaisami9544 consciousness is delved into in neuroscience, maybe try some literature from that field.
@@s_anandsurya Yeah, I am very much interested to know if neuroscience can give an explanation. I am actively following their work. As I said in the live stream, I am studying integrated information theory. I looked at the highly disputed theory put forth in the mid-1990s by Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose that consciousness is based on activities in tubulin/microtubules inside brain neurons. I went through the book Existential Physics by the German physicist Sabine Hossenfelder, where she delves into this topic and presents criticism of Roger Penrose's model of consciousness.
But still, I am not able to grasp how electrical activities in the brain give rise to a first-person experience? There need not be any first-person experience at all. Till now, we have not observed any strong emergence in nature. So, scientists say it is more plausible that consciousness is a weak emergence. But logically, the contents of consciousness emerge from the neural activities in the brain. But how does consciousness itself emerge?
This is what has been bothering me. If you can provide more sources regarding this hard problem of consciousness, that would be very helpful.
I think we need to stop giving out engineering degrees for 25 years in this country.
Deeps could have been clearer by asking vimoh what the self is. According to Deeps,it seems like the self is nothing but a bundle of experiences
Not according to Deeps or anyone. Watch for yourself, the fact of it.
@@deepankulandaisami9544 I watched it, if I was wrong and you want to clarify, please do.
@@kongspeaks4778 You are right :)
I meant it is not true only according to me, but it is the actual fact if everyone pays attention. Self is the experience itself. The recognition of this fact is also another experience, which liberates one from all the needless bondages and suffering caused by the wrong identifications of the self. So this self-realisation (not just theoretically thinking about it but actually feeling it in the very core) is extremely crucial and that is the goal of religious enquiry.
@@deepankulandaisami9544 Let's say, hypothetically, that you're in a void devoid of any material actualization or other organic presence of any external consciousness outside of you. How would you recognise yourself? On what basis would you demonstrate the presence of your own consciousness? Why do people get mentally deranged in white rooms? Because there's no external stimulus. There's no other consciousness that is competent to recognise their existence. Self-realisation is an easy way to affirm yourself intuitively and immediately. It's only when we come out of ourselves to construct societies, laws, and languages that we become something more than a simple consciousness. We're self-conscious for the very reason we can recognise other consciousnesses. Science and philosophical history are engrossed in formulating a systematic approach that explains not only the "self" as you do but also the "other." The self is a synthesis of subject and object; Vimoh doesn't get it, nor do you.
1:34:00 hindutva counter
I think I understand what he is trying to say. The subjective experience is a construct which is agreeable but not shareable. When I see a tree, it physically exists in the universe (agreeable) but my conscious experience of it is a construct (imaginary, painted by my brain) which is not shareable.
We can agree that wavelength of 550 in the spectrum of light is green. But the experience of seeing between you and me might be very different and we’ll never know it. To simplify, if I could get into you head and experience your experience of seeing green it might be like my experience of seeing red. But, we’ll never know that. However, our response might be same. We’ll point at it and say Green.
Lived with this thought for 25 years. It feels great to pen it down here.
I am happy that you almost understood what I tried to convey.
Regarding your green colour argument, it is plausible that the wavelength 550mm appears as the same colour (even in conscious construct) for all human beings because we human beings share a similar brain structure. Though I may be oversimplifying it, I hope you get what I am saying.
But the very fact of discovering this aloneness frees you completely from this comparative reality: me and you, we and them. Because when you discover I am "the conscious experience" itself, there is no other as far as your existence is concerned. This frees a person from jealousy, social pressure, the whole rat race, and herd mentality. Then whatever you do is authentic, which is the goal of religious enquiry.
@@deepankulandaisami9544 read guns germs and steel to understand the origin of religion.
@@vivianferrao6133 Sure I will start reading this book "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies"
In the live stream, I actually tried to convey that religion is a stagnation in the enquiry process. The human psyche is the same right whether ancient or modern?
@@deepankulandaisami9544Do you have any proof of the claim that such a discovery frees oneself from all the ills you have listed?
In my college days, when we would discuss philosophy and metaphysics for fun almost all of my friends had some version of the light example and the aloneness that you talk about. Yet everyone of those people are now in the rat race of life, job. They display jealousy. The thought itself if not profound but an interesting concept. It is so mundane however that most people drop it within a few days of discovering it.
@@deepankulandaisami9544 yes my friend. It’s a perspective changer. It keeps ego in check. It can also make you feel lonely in spite of surrounded by loved ones. We’ll never know how we individually see 550mm. Possibility of me seeing it same in my world as in your world is one in infinite. We’ll never know. Our brain is objective again. Its function might be similar subjective experience is very personal and we’ll never know.
this channel is such a great discovery plus i can refresh my hindi ffs and not shame my family thanks man lol
It's true, people just blindly take sides in the Israel Palestine debate. I've been seeing this crap since the times of Arafat and that Israeli premier who got assassinated, dont remember his name. And I've always felt the same way, it's like a vicious cycle which never ends. Though I must cede that Israel has been a bit more brutal in its attacks throughout, if the casualties numbers are to be believed. I dont agree with the "colonizer" argument, because present day Jews are not responsible for their long past ancestors settling this land out of nowhere.
That first guy was high on something😂
Yeah, I was high on this because (if you really go into it) it frees your brain from comparative reality and that is the space,where real creativity expresses.
@@deepankulandaisami9544Again dude. Stop saying nonsense like that and try to make sense before saying anything😂. You think you are saying lots of things but actually saying nothing. Come on, don't do that.
@@warrior_of_liberation saying nothing? From my side, it makes total sense.
I don't know if what I said appeared like a spiritual woo-woo, but I didn't say anything spiritual or complicated.
I think it will make sense if you also enquire into it from your side. It is a simple fact that people easily miss, which is causing all the problems humanity is going through currently.
@@deepankulandaisami9544 You don't realise but you are actually talking Deepak Chopra lvl nonsense. Reply to my other comment and lets see where it goes. I am trying to enquire you there whether you actually have anything useful to say. Do follow.
He is just anxious and nervous. He has too much read info in his mind bouncing about which he doesn't have the mental processing power and ram to consume and digest and make sense of and articulate it back
Dam, who hurt that kid.
But still respect him nonetheless, he is a good kid.
@deeps read guns germs and steel to understand the origin of religion.
Sure I will go through that book. Thanks for suggesting 🙌
In the live stream, I wanted to say religion is a stagnation in the enquiry process.
Hi Vimoh! Who's this chap 'arunannow'? He has wiered combination of ideology. I can understand Babasaheb+Periyar, but how is he able to add communism with those ideals?
He is not communist he is anarchist
@@SciRaideranarchists are communists
@@SciRaider I am not sure if he is an anarchist but if you are a Sharma then definitely you come from a highly poisonous and a very dangerous gang.😏😒
@@SciRaider aren't anarchists communists too? Class oppression is also a form of oppression.
Babasaheb plus periyar is also a khichdi if you know that the latter has some problematic statements on dalits, round table and Ambedkar himself.
!:30:00 😢😢😢😢😢
The first caller sounded like he is suffering from Schizophrenia.😮
Sadhguru is on mission he will make all English knowing people schizophrenic especially women and children😅 thnk god At least knowing a little English came in handy here.
The first caller from Tamilnadu needs treatment with antipsychotics. Poor chap is very thought disordered. 😢
I might have been a little ambitious. Actually, I tried to make the rational mind understand self-realisation. I tried to complement the atheist view which can help establish a more stable society. I am not suffering from any psychiatric problems. Maybe I presented what I wanted to convey in a disordered way because of the fear of taking too much time.
@@deepankulandaisami9544sex karle bhai.
@jigsaw4702 What exactly do you think is the problem with my analysis?
@@deepankulandaisami9544 you don't realise that this is not a teaching moment but more of a cringe moment. Also you are quite young and thats ok. You have rambling and had too much on your mind. Part of that is ego.. Either an inflated one or an insecure one overcompensating for it. I am not judging you honestly, I have been there as a youngster. Only time and age will sort this out for you. Do leave a reminder or something on your calendar to come take a look at your video and your responses here 10-15-20 years later.
Take care
@@akshayde Sure :)
I am quite young and I agree I might have some biases and insecurities, which I myself may not be aware of. From a young age, I faced a lot of bullying from friends, so because of that sometimes unknowingly I feel insecure. I went through the most painful and difficult situations after finishing high school. My caretakers and well-wishers had taken me to many psychiatrists, but nothing could answer my deep questions. During the COVID lockdown time, when I was absolutely alone, I discovered a few important things related to the hard problem of consciousness, that is what I wanted to share.
It may be possible that I am purely delusional and wrong, which I may discover in the future. I will be happy if you can point out where I am going wrong.
I think Deeps probably is autistic or mentally sensitive(not insulting anyone) & probably has taken inspiration from Sadhguru or something.
@@deepankulandaisami9544 hello Bhai, you know at your age in India 100 cr of people don't know English well, it closes the way for these people towards a treasure of knowledge, because this treasure of knowledge is in English, if these people were know English well ,they would try to explore this treasure of knowledge, scientific things etc but they don't try to waste time on unscientific or impractical type thing like you said about 'self' that is something like spiritual thing,and spirituality is unscientific and unpractical thing
@@Manoj_0000 When did I say "unscientific" things? Did I make big claims? I talked about self-observation. It is useful only for sincere seekers. If you find it useless and a waste of time, then cool ! I am not forcing anyone to do this enquiry. It is a personal choice.