Wow! I started racing 33 years ago and the knee over pedal was like the first thing we looked at. We then would change the stem to match. I am now enlightened! When I coach people these days I want to see them be able to easily lift their hands off the bars without sitting up. Often I see a lot of tension in shoulders and the arms. I loved this video
I have been changing around with my saddle and stem length and this is so far the best video I found when it comes to fore and aft of your saddle. I already saw a few that recommended to check the balance, however this one precisely explains which actions indicate which problem. I recently shortened my stem length and I will do some balance tests to see if I need to shorten it further and go back some more. Also I tilted my saddle, which is increasing the comfort but making holding the balance a bit more difficult.
That was the absolute best, and most discriptive leson on fitting a bike that I've ever had the pleasure to see.You explained everything in very understandable detail that anybody could understand without getting to scientific and detailed, At no time at all did I feel the need to pause your video and run to dig out anything but a pencil and a measuring tape. No slide rule, no calculous. Thank you!🤙
Really useful. I took the test and ended up moving my saddle 5mm back and noticed a marked improvement in comfort. Thanks for the information, clear and well-presented.
I watched this video last night. Recently, I've noticed that when I took my hands off the bars and sat up (while riding a trainer), that I was in fact sliding forward. Today, before getting on the bike, I slid the saddle back 3-4mm. I had been using the plumb line from the knee method only. I immediately felt better on the bike and stayed put when I sat up with no hands. Less strain on the abs also. I felt during the session that I had a bit more power and bonus: the chronic hand numbness I've been getting was much less pronounced. Thanks. I wish I lived out there (I'm in Toronto). I would bring my bike and have you do the whole fit routine.
one key thing here that shouldn't be overlooked is that when your bike is on the trainer the front wheel needs lifting to ensure your saddle is level (or in the same position) as it would be on level ground - otherwise you've missed a really important factor. I'm not saying you've missed this, but I bet tonnes of people don't consider this properly. Even with a riser my front wheel is slightly lower than when the bike is on the ground.
I tried to understand and analyze this video but ended up very confused. It's not clear if we should move the saddle forwards or backwards. I also saw the previous test video and they mentioned you can get a "positive" result test while here they mention a "failed" test, and it seems that both positive and failed are the same? That's contradictory. What should we do if we perform the test and our hip slides forward? What should we do if we use too much abs muscles? What should we do if our cadence is notoriously increased? Thanks.
+mcclausky apologies, especially on that first video I got stuck in my PT-centric speak a bit -- positive sign/failed test, negative sign etc. If you slide forward, have to use abs excessively, or increase cadence a lot then you may want to try the saddle back a little. A little movement can go a long way. And you'll have to decide based on your fitness, mobility, riding style etc how much you want to bias your weight back versus on the front end of the bike. But most riders can make a very small aft saddle adjustment (with perhaps a stem adjustment to equalize the cockpit length) and feel more stable on their saddle. There's no requirement to move the saddle until you can do the test without any of the negative outcomes (hips sliding etc) but if you're having issues in the bike -- whether they're saddle discomfort or hand pressure, neck pain...whatever -- changing the balance in this way could be a means of remedying them partially or entirely. Thanks for watching....
have to agree. I am a PT with several decades experience with GC riders, and this was painful and confusing to listen to. 'using your abs excessively'? compared to what? Not a lot of genuine pro rider tech makes it down to the local bike fitter and shop level imo. 1. Pros overall buy one frame size down on what is recommended by the manufacturer. Why? because they want to get their stem down lower for aero advantage. They also work like hell on spine flexibility and low bodyfat%, and have a skeletal system that can tolerate the higher hip flexion angle associated with a lower back angle. How much you use your abs when you sit up from the bars will depend on the height diff between saddle and stem. This PT doesn't consider that. 2. There's been a trend in the last 15 years to move the saddle further forwards. Why? because it allows one to use a higher cadence, especially ascending. 3. pros use longer stems for two reasons - they use a frame 1 size too small, and because having their center of gravity further forwards gives better bike handling when descending and cornering. If you want to stop death wobble, move your center of gravity forwards by leaning down lower towards the top tube and stem. if you want better control in corners, your saddle is better forward as much as legally allowed and use an appropriate length stem to maximize your back angle without compromising hip joint angle, breathing, and power generation. 4. as for cleat position, that comes down to power generation for a individual courses. ideal cleat position for climbs is not the same for flats. 5. knee angles? the old adage that 25-30 degrees is a good starting point for triathletes, and 30-35 for road cyclists. What trumps all this though is individual rider comfort on the bike. Without exception, riders have asymmetries and pain issues that take precedence over what's theoretically ideal.
Criticism taken, not my best video, and I'll do better next time. With all due respect though, you've never done a bike fit, have you? Be honest. Because your point #5 about knee angles isn't even arguably correct...it's just wrong. The "old adage" of 25-35 degrees hasn't been used in about 25 years since we've had the benefit of dynamic measuring in bike fit. Additionally a triathlon setup will generally (on average) have slightly more knee bend, so less extension than the typical road position. (As a test, you should pull 10 triathletes out of a local race and give them all a dynamically measured knee extension angle of 25-30 degrees and I guarantee you'll have 10 unhappy triathletes). Before you condescend about the information not getting to "local bike fitters" please do your homework....
Have I ever done a bike fit? Wow! If you are asking that based on point 5, can you read it again with a cool head. I said the old adage is a good starting point, a distinction you must have overlooked. optimal knee angle varies based on course terrain and cadence. Being the seasoned bike fitter you are, I am sure you aware of the pitfalls of recommending one knee angle for all occasions. Have a great day!
To be truthful, yes, your recommendation on point #5 did make me think that. I'm sorry, but the "old adage" and how you noted it, is a terrible starting point -- as I said before the range is wrong (recommending too much extension) and it's dangerous to propose that a cyclist should expect to have more knee extension on their triathlon bike than on the road bike. That's actually the only reason I decided to weigh in in the first place -- I'm only stepping in on some of these threads when the information provided by someone could set back or harm a rider who decides to take the advice. Have a good day as well...
7 місяців тому
John, Thank you! You have managed to approach and explain the fore/aft position with in relation to the reach of the handle bar and the healthy body position, that it all makes perfect sense! I dot have a trainer, but can't wait for the rain stop so I can confirm the above. In my case I have a 110 mm (which is really more soo a 114mm) steam, so I think I should be able to make is shorter in order to get the good body position. Thank you again! All the best from Austria. Adrian
I'm no bike fitter, but I am a former marathoner and do understand the bio-mechanics behind the test. The position of your body mass relative to the crank changes based on seat position. The key is having your body mass balanced against the force applied while pedaling normally. When the seat is too far forward, the force is mostly vertical, and does not apply enough rearward force to keep your body in position without your arms holding it there. This is why you move forward in the saddle with this condition. Moving the seat back relative to the crank produces more rearward force from pedaling, and balances with your body mass so your arms don't have to work to keep your position on the saddle.
Yep. And also, working on thoracic spine flexibility will allow you to reach further without having to tilt your pelvis forward. That way you keep you sit bones holding you on your seat and not your sensitive parts.
@@iwontreplybacklol7481so keeping saddle forward is better ? In my bike have saddle all the way forward , it’s what I’ve found the best in terms of comfort and power , I have a hybrid bike
I agree it's a bit confusing. One minute it seems to say that you should slide forward, then says you shouldn't.... I think the best way is to go as far forward as you can whilst still being able to ride for hours and hours (however many hours you ride for) without neck or shoulder pain, or pins and needles in fingers. Or front of knee pain!. Just keep sliding saddle back until the latter stops happening. I find that that spot leaves my kneecaps about 1cm in front of KOPS. One method that works well is "can you lift both hands off the bars together, or do you need to do them one at a time?" Ideally you can lift both hands off the hoods together without a big strain. Oh and saddle needs to be level and the right height for all this to work (heels scraping pedals). Then position bars so you use all parts of them without strain.
thanks for this video. I was sliding forward slightly when doing this test, or I had to push off the handlebars a little bit. sliding my seat back about 0.5-0.75cm made a world of difference, as it was apparently set about 0.25cm forward from center of the saddle rails.
Oooh wow. So for years I've been riding with my saddle too much forward because of that BS 'knee vertical to the saddle' rule.. Everything feels better now with the saddle 1.5 cm backwards ! Thank you soo much !
i've been having saddle discomfort and i've tried several saddles , played around with the angle tilt but forgot about trying a different fore aft position (slaps head) moving the saddle back about 1cm for me made a fairly uncomfortable ride transform into a much better one!
For those trying to get into an optimal aero position, a more forward seat position in relation to the bottom bracket opens up the hip angle and allows rider to generate more power for the same given torso angle. Often this will compromise the hands off test. Which is more important? It depends on the priorities of the rider.
Isn't that incorrect? Moving forward does open up the hips more but removes more of the larger glute from the power cycle. So it's more aero but less powerful position. That's why most people don't produce as much power on their TT bike even when not tucked into the skis. It's because they are further forward of the bottom bracket so less glute activation. At least that's my understanding.
love your videos. i got a fit earlier this year and i didnt feel like it was right so i made some adujstments and after watching your video i can tell that my sweet spot in somewhere in the middle of the 2. thank you
I’ve found that moving the saddle forward a bit increases my speed and power. I ride a Giant Defy which has slightly more slack seat tube angle which would place the saddle a little farther behind the bottom bracket so moving the saddle forward a bit makes sense.
The sitting up test is a BALANCE test, so please listen to the results of the test! When you release the bars and begin to sit up if you're using your pedaling motion to push yourself backwards on the saddle to maintain a slow and steady sitting up motion then move the saddle backwards. BUT if your pedaling motion starts to drag you forward once you release the bars (these are both using level saddles) move the saddle FORWARD and not backward like the video details. The test is a BALANCE test and you can be on either side of the balance so adjust according to your needs. Do not fear moving your saddle forward if your weight distribution and positional balance dictates you should!
@@markuswahl2281 - That isn't what's going on here as on the bike without bars you're not in free fall like the example you're making. You're still attached to the bike in two locations - the saddle and the pedals. To stabilize the upper body you use leverage from those two contact points.
@@markuswahl2281- I'm sorry then, you seemingly are not understanding leverage, the effects of pedaling dynamics or what is affected when moving the rider cog further back. Unfortunately, per your example, we aren't standing bolt upright when riding a bike. We're bent over with the primary balance point being the saddle position relative to the bottom bracket. Not understanding this makes it kinda pointless to explain but just try the extreme experiment of your version. Throw the saddle as far back as possible and try and sit up while pedaling, you're going to drag your butt forward to sit up because of the increased force necessary due to how far outside your butt is outside your body's COG and the change in direction of the leverage needed to sit up. Because of the increased forces and more acute hip angle you're forced to pull on the pedals to stabilize your upper body which pulls the rider toward the bottom bracket - which is now further in forward. So by your own fail state one would move the saddle further backward which only exasperates the problem until you simply can't mount the saddle to the bike anymore. Try it. Edit: Or even try the opposite. Flip the seatpost around if you have an offset seatpost and slam the saddle all the way forward. You're going to find yourself trying to push yourself backwards on the saddle to sit up. Both of these results are exactly opposite of your understanding. Your understanding is of a 1) static object and 2) an object balanced at it's ends. Neither of which is what we'd consider a cyclist.
@@Vermonstered Easy there, cowboy. I would advise you to be more careful when throwing around these semi-academic words if you don't have a good understanding of them. I think I will agree to disagree with you. I'm sorry for offending you!
Im not quite sure why you recommend moving the saddle back if in the test one naturally slides forward and then comes to rest? Wouldn't putting the saddle back make it even worse???
If you slide forward when you lift your hands from the bar, it's because you are too far forward in relation to the pedals. If you move the saddle back then, you will be pushing yourself back onto the saddle more with your peddling (hence increased cadence)
Hi John..Excellent tutorial...One thing I have done is I recently purchased an inexpensive set of magnetic rollers,not so much for off-season training but as an aid to monitor bike fit.I firmly believe that nothing beats an experienced bike fitter, but the ability to check one's own cycling position on the bike,without worrying about outside influences,i.e. traffic,I find invaluable.A good example would be setting up cleats on a new shoe/pedal combo,or dialing in a new saddle...Once again,nothing replaces professional advice,but may simply augment it....Cheers!!
I just got a new bike with very different geometry than my last one (endurance frame to race frame), and this was super helpful for me! I found I was putting too much pressure through my hands on longer rides. Turns out that dropping the saddle about 1.5 cm and then pushing it back around 7-8 cm did wonders for comfort and stability. Despite that change, it did not really change my reach too much (although I'm playing with that now that the saddle is set) because both lowering and pushing it back kept the distance to the bars relatively the same. Still need to fully dial it in, but it's way better than it had been.
John thanks as always, for such free useful info. I always thought knee over pedal was a kind of wonky standard. I do use the plumb bob just as a general, but it never became more apparent when I changed to a Pro Stealth. For some reason the geometry of the saddle and fitting it, showed me I was way off with my previous Fizik antares. By the way the Pro Stealth has been an enlightenment to me, at least indoors, so far. Thanks again!
When your stable on the bike, you know it, that feeling of stability, smooth power transfer, control and comfort is obvious. I faffed around with my fit over the years, big set back, reach and all that. Then one day, I was going through a web site with a pro cyclist's bike, which happened to include the rider's fit and height. After digging around I came up with 10 or so riders similar to myself, then averaged up their fits, and changed the bike according... The surprise was when I got on it and rode around, it felt amazing, bit of lowered saddle, moved the saddle forward a bit and bar height. I've had it like that for 3 years and as you suggested I did the test with hands off the bars... no sliding and I can ride easily. Doesn't work for everyone, I'm sure but my methodology worked for me...
running into knee pain on my enduro mtb even though i've matched my saddle height to my trail mtb bike. Thinking this might be due to the slacker seat angle and longer cranks. What's a good way to set fore aft on an enduro style bike?
I think not always. It could put you in a position where you initially feel comfortable but could end up developing a bad habit or putting your knee in a weird position por an injury
I’ve done this test, my saddle is as far back as I can get it and have a 70mm stem, but I’m still failing and falling forwards. You say if the saddle is all the way forward the bike is the wrong size but is this the same if saddle is all the way back? Thanks
Level saddle for this test as this just establishes a starting point. Then tilt the saddle as needed for flexibility and adjust fore/aft to stabilize the pelvis after the tilt.... but like always changing the rider position over the bottom bracket changes the pelvis angle which may warrant a saddle change.
if i slide forward, couldnt this also be a sign that my saddle angle is to much in the negatives? im having it around 2-3 degrees because it takes the pressure away from the sensitive parts down there, i am already using a saddle with a big cutout also. havent tried to bring my saddle back yet, will give it a try :)
i have broken a couple of seat rails, i am now concerned about this more than fit, if i need any input on the position of the strongest position on the rails to withstand weight ?
Hello again; this is good. One question: if we are looking to find a bit of "flat area" to sit on, bringing the saddle back would tend to place the narrower part at the center Potentially, in order to find that flat area, we would need to slide back, causing a need to extend our reach. Just a point that I did not quite grasp. That notwithstanding, the presentation is very helpful and provides orientation; I will begin to experiment and hope to solve my saddle problems. Many thanks for the advice.
just a little confused. What does a (+) positive test mean? Does it mean that you NEED to experience the mentioned symptoms (cadence going a little higher, torso moving forward/back,..) to determine that you are balance? or if i dont experience any of the symptoms it means that i am out of balance. It seems like if your saddle is too far forward you will NOT experience any of the + symptom so a bad bike fit?
Hello, Thank you for the vid. Handlebar being the same position. wouldn't moving saddle back cause your back angle to drop making it harder for the rider to do the lift up test? I was just curious because that you mentioned, if test fails you recommend pushing the saddle back, and if it is too easy you recommend pushing saddle forward, wouldn't that shorten the reach and raise the back angle making the easy test easier? am I missing something here? thanks
Nevermind. I get your point. I was just kind of fiddling around on the office chair after watching your vid. then realized that if position of hip is more to the back you do not topple forward, I was thinking this in correlation to the reach so much so that what you said did not make sense. now it does. have to think reach separately.. completely take it out of saddle position equation.
What exactly is the goal of adjusting fore and aft? I am thinking in terms of cadence, sliding fore or aft. What is the effect of too far aft? Cadence goes down? Slide back? What makes a person slide foreward when the seat is too far foreward? How are the forces transmitted to the seat?
I'm not an expert so maybe I'm wrong but I believe the fwd aft position is not very important (assuming the saddle is horizontal) because you'll naturally sit in the right spot so that you can pedal comfortably. Then the correct position would be the one where you have better support on the sitting bones (example if the saddle is too much back you'll be sitting on the nose of the saddle etc). Is this a good way of thinking about it?
no because there's nothing holding you in that position. You'll just slide forward to te point where your legs are at the correct position for peddling...
Yes. Your hips normally tend to move to the right spot during pedaling. Because of this, using a flat saddle that's leveled, the fore/aft- positioning is not that big of an issue. How ever, with a curved saddle that raises from center to tail and nose, it's a completely different game. Sliding your hips 1 cm forward from the center and your pelvis starts tilting backwards. Sliding your hip 1 cm backwards from the center, and your pelvis starts to tilt forwards. That's why the fore/aft -positioning is very important.
I've been following alot of the seat height / seat positions for a long time now, but it dawned on me. Will these measurements work with the mullet set ups? Wouldn't pulling the seat back further unload the front? Or could offsetting the wheel size with tire size remedy this. I'm running 24/26 26/27 26/29 and 27/29s mixed between hard tail and full suspensions.
The problem I have with the balance method test is that it depends so much on what force you are exerting in the pedals. You suggest "a little above an easy pedaling gear." But that can mean so many things to so many people. A little more force and you pass the test. A little less force and you fail the rest. Seems about as vague as the knee over the spindle test. No disrespect intended. Just sayin'. BTW, Phil Burt says that if you're going to use the KOPS method, he recommends simply taking a straight edge and place it against the front of the knee in the 3 o'clock position. Hanging freely, the straight edge should intersect the FRONT of the pedal spindle.
Excellent video - so in summary if you raise the had and there is no moment - you pass the test. If you raise your hand and shift forward or / or have problems riasing up you are either too far back or forward? Excellent video. Greetings from Ireland.
Martin Lynch Just about -- if you raise your hands up and your hips shift forward your saddle could be too far forward -- or -- it could be perfect or too far back and the problem is that the reach to the bars is too long which draws the pelvis forward. The solution would be to come close to normalizing the reach, then re-do the test. We need to eliminate the reach as the problem before moving forward. Once we do this, if the test tells us to move the saddle (either direction), we can take appropriate steps to keep the reach the same by changing the stem length.
My saddle is already in most aft position and I change also the stem length.. The shortest but still my knee is not in position to the pedal. What should I do? I already corrected my saddle heght
Since we are clipped into the pedals, won't our bodies naturally fall into the same position over the BB, and thus, we just have to move the seat to support that comfort/movement? By being locked onto the bike, our bodies will naturally go forward or backwards based on mechanics at that point, so the seat is just there to support the motion.
He said toward the end of the video that you can perform the test on the road by lifting your hands slightly off the hoods and seeing if your position changes.
What recourse might I have if a bike shop sold me a bike that was probably too small for me? I have been riding it for 8 years now and have many miles on it. But no matter how much I practice, I always have a sore butt and numb hands. I realize now that my top tube is really short for my height (54cm, 6'1" me). Will increasing the stem length help? I definitely fail this test, but the saddle is already at its limit. I feel like my LBS was trying to get rid of the last of their previous year's stock on me the more I think about it. CAADX 105 cross bike for reference.
Hi. I'd like to know what experience in carrying out bike fits you have? Over how many years you've been doing such? Where you've developed your methods from? How much you charge please? Thank you
HI John, useful video thank you! I tried your test and passed first time..! I do wonder how a guy like Adam Hansen survives with his oddball position.... Certainly one of a kind!
It's very clrar to me. If you can't get up from your handlebars without speading up your cadance a lot, you have to put the saddle a little bit back. That's all.
This is a ridiculous procedure to set saddle for aft position. What credentials does this guy have? This is just WRONG. Knee position in relation to pedal spindle is still a relative measurement. And you don't adjust reach to the bars by saddle position. You get your saddle position in height and relation to knee and pedal spindle and BB then you get your reach dialed in based on flexibility / arm length. Of course he never mentioned that you set your cleats up first so that doesn't change the whole equation once they are set! So lets assume this guys fit advice is correct. Now you are on your bike which came with a 120 stem and a low (race ) bar position..so you are pretty stretched out...try to sit up using his advice, very difficult. You are going to be attempting to adjust saddle position disregarding knee position to compensate for a long stem or lack of flexibility? No completely wrong.
What ever adjustments you do, be sure to do them after a 2 hours ride, when ever you are tired. Look how uncomfortable professional riders look after a few hours on the road. Get adjusted so you don't suffer at the end.
yup.. 100% everything feels fine at the start of the ride.. it's only into a longer ride will you *know* whether you made a good adjustment or a silly one.
Get a bike fit if you are not sure and start from there as a base. I'm at a good saddle height, but I suffer from occasional numb hands which can be I have too much weight on my hands. I probably have to move the saddle a little to help get any excessive weight off the bars. It makes sense that if you move the saddle enough to get a successful test can also contribute to getting excessive weight off the bars to where you could possibly address hand numbness or at least reduce it.
If you can't answer, maybe someone from the audience can... Do these tips apply to motorcycles as well? I got bars that we're a bit taller and a bit further back, that solved my wrist and arm issues because I no longer have to lock my arms because it was impossible to lean further forward. But, I get pain in the saddle and knees. Should I spend money on adjustable pegs to change my position?
Hi! Great vídeo! Like all of them! But there's something that I'm not getting. If you fail the lift up test by sliding forward or streessing your abs too much, shouldn't we move the saddle forward, instead of backwards?
I was interested on my next road bike purchase to buy intentionally one size smaller frame 54 instead of 56 (I'm 178 cm tall) and use longer stem (120 or more compared to 100 mm on 56 frame), any thoughts on that, what will I gain and lose in that case, I want to mimic more of that pro setup just without that extreme saddle to bar drop
They Live We See A downside might be that if you opt for the smaller size your possible bar height will be lower -- the smaller bike will have a shorter head tube and this leads to more saddle to bar drop. That said, in a lot of circumstances (but certainly not all) when a rider is between sizes the smaller frame is often the safer bet.
thanks for the reply, also I have specific problem of bike fit because I have the worst body type for proper fitting, I have short arms and torso and really long femur bones so when I pedal I feel cramped (not pinching) in my hip area like in a situation when you are doing squats with overly narrow stance from what is ideal for you so I though to try the smallest cranks 165 mm to open my hip angle more, you see the way my femur attaches to the hip if I drive it too much into flexion it leaves with no space to move in acetabulum so it pulls my pelvis into posterior tilt so I always end up pushing my knees to the side a little
In 99.9% of the situations, it's better to go smaller when between sizes. It's always easier to make a smaller frame fit you than a larger one when between sizes. Don't let anyone tell you different.
The balance test is a good way to unweighted the upper body which doesn't cycle. That of course is a common sense thing to do. However, a balance position may not be the right position for the legs/foots as far as applying forces on the pedals. My experiences show too much rearward saddle results in ineffective pedaling forces. The cycling become unnecessarily heavy on the crank arms. I am kind of thinking, if a balance do result in heavy legs, maybe the option is to go for the position of most effective pedaling saddle position and to take care of the bar position by altering the stem etc. Sometimes the best bike fitter doesn't give us a more comfortable cycling position because we aren't use to the ideal position as yet or our body is weak at some points.
I always thought that plumb bob technique was screwy because I felt like I had to reach out to the 3 o’clock position. I dig the videos but I generally go by feel and so far so good.
Hello John. When I got a bikefit, my saddle was placed more to the front, and after all the settings, this was the last test, that resulted on tilting the saddle up, to avoid me sliding front. My stem got slammed, and I feel I could go way lower and longer (its a canyon endurace). Maybe the whole fit was badly adressed, and I should be having the saddle back and leveled? I feel great in this position though.
+Joao Godinho you don't necessarily need it to be back. If in your current position you're well balanced, you don't have any saddle problems and your overall comfort on the bike is good, then this could be just fine. A lot depends on the reasoning behind moving you forward in the fitting...if it was done for solid mechanical reasons then great. But if it was done to satisfy some arbitrary rule like KOPS then probably not such a good idea. There's a chance that with your saddle back slightly and your stem shortened an equal amount, you'd be just as aero but perhaps with overall better balance (not saying this absolutely would be the case, only that it's possible). Your bar position would still be as low and the relative length of the cockpit would be the same but your weight wouldn't be as forward on the bike.
Basically, no result given in the video! All the bike fit systems are guess work. The only system that really works is trial and error: get on the bike and ride for at least half an hour at a relatively high pace, then make adjustments, then try again, then make refinements, etc. It is possible that the stem length and/height might need changing, and the seat post layback (or not) distance could be very wrong - resulting in the need to change this too. The 'take-away': a bike fit will only help to choose an approximation of dimensions but you have to ride the bike and make adjustments over time.
@@psycheout4733 no, since you have the correct bike and fit in the first place. All you have to do is take measurements remove and replace the saddle, position it to measurements. No guess work or trial and error. , might be hard for you though.
@@Geeios1And where do you measure the new saddle to be millimeter perfect? The seated position is not the same on every saddle relative to the nose, tail, side profile of each saddle. You won't have that accuracy with measurement unless it's the same saddle where you can take the same reference points. So might be hard for you too. ;) Though per your bike fit you're right. Take measurements and transplant the fit onto a new bike. Hence you don't need to get "fit dynamically on a fit bike before you buy a bike in the first place." Stack and reach ranges is all you need to know when buying a new bike and it's fairly easy finding what suits a rider w/o having to pay for a dynamic fit on a fit bike to get the very basic range of what range they're looking for. But think that might be getting too technical for you.
@@psycheout4733 why are you changing saddles? The title of the video is determining fore aft position of the saddle. Where would you start? How would you know it felt better or worse if it isn't positioned exactly where the other saddle was? Measure from the nose of the saddle to the center of the topcap bolt, don't forget the adjust to the correct height. It will be a combination of the two until it's set.
I'm having hip pain when we are pacing, can the fore aft of the saddle be the cause of it? It doesn't hurt when we're chill riding. Or could it be spmething else?
Too much reach maybe? I have the reverse where my seat is all the way forward because my reach felt long already. After an hour or so, my hand start going numb. I just moved the saddle back a bit, but then it makes my reach longer so will have to see. Might have to get a shorter stem too.
Mine are always slammed forwards to the limit. Then I’m right over the cranks in an aggressive position. Pumps out more watts. It’s like a TT position.
What factor does the saddle play in this scenario? My fitter wanted to help me rotate my hips more to compensate for arthritis. He put me on an SMP saddle. The high back of the saddle makes it hard and uncomfortable to take both hands off the bars. Your opinion is appreciated. Thanks
+Rich Kaplan hmm, arthritis where? And they wanted you to rotate your hips/pelvis forward into anterior tilt to straighten your spine, or back to flex your spine? Just trying to get the proper scenario in mind...
Bike Fit Adviser I have arthritis in my hips and I am scheduled for a left hip replacement in April. I think he was trying to open up the hip angle since the arthritis is limiting my range of movement. Can't raise my left knee as high as normal. This is also causing me to sit on an angle and my left knee moves outward as I raise the knee up when pedaling. He also switched me to 165 cranks and moved the saddle somewhat forward. He thought the smp saddle would help me to sit more "normal". He also moved my left cleat back and kept my right cleat in its original position. I am riding a BMC Road Machine. Boy, I'm a complicated case!
Hi john, I had foot problems a few years ago & relieved the symptoms by moving the cleats 12mm back. Would you say as a general assessment the saddle should be moved forward by around the corresponding amount. This i didn't do but did lower the saddle by about 10mm. Had lower backpain for years until I changed my cranks from 165 - 150/155. Back pain disappeared over night after doing this. Just wondering if I could still use my 165 cranks with the saddle more forward. I did have an accident 5 years ago which did cause lower backpain(fractured pelvis), but I'm pain free at mo. With the balance test my lower back always feels better with more weight on my hands, actually the balance test is easier to do with more weight on the hands. My legs are so short that when I'm standing astride my 19.5 inch frames I'm basically nearly sat on the top tube with about 5mm clearance. Sitting on the saddle, now that I'm using short cranks both feet tip toes are 20mm from ground. I probably need a smaller frame using 650c wheels , but can't afford to run 650c tyres & the range is ltd. Always trying to learn more even after nearly 50 years of cycling & around 250,000 miles of riding. Keep up the good work.
No, you effectively shortened your leg, so if anything lower the saddle. IMHO, the saddle s/b as far back as safely possible. It lets you start your power stroke sooner, uses more thigh muscle and engages your core more. Don't forget to take measurements before you start, be diligent with every move, only more 1 thing at a time to keep track of whats going on.
Your correct it did shorten my legs but cured the foot problem. I tried lowering the saddle by 10mm, this only transferred the pain from my lower back to my knees. Moving the saddle up by half of the amount which I had lowered it made both my back & knees ache, but both to a lesser degree. Then a few years later read an article on crank length with regard to inside leg measurement (711mm(28") which worked out that I should be using 155mm cranks. So got a pair of old 150mm cranks from ebay, once fitted no more knee pain. I did raise the saddle by 10mm at the same time. I Still get slight back pain on longer hilly rides after about 100miles which I can dial out by moving the saddle forward 10mm. Only trouble with doing that it puts too much load on my arms & shoulders, so I don't. Raising the saddle by 5mm or moving it aft by the same amount brings on the back pain about 20 miles earlier. Lowering the saddle by 10mm brings on slight knee pain & loss in power according to my garmin.
+Artem Poznyak if your hips slide forward when you do the test, I would first try the saddle back slightly and see how the test is affected -- keep in mind since this is a test that's dependent on a lot of parts of our fit that you may need to shorten your stem or otherwise change the reach. We don't want to increase the reach of the bike too much. When you have the right reach and the right setback the test will get a lot more stable and you won't slip forward
1st............ Is your saddle pointed nose down..........? I'll bet it is. Get rid of that. This nose down insanity is just that, insane. Go from there. Hopefully you are not crammed (positioned) forward, another au current notion that is, that's right..........., insane.
Didn’t even show center measuring point for saddle. Where do the numbers line up to post clamp? Center? Forward? Back?? Is it 45 straight line in line with post or center of clamp and vertical center? Not one video yet out of a dozen has not pointed that out.
How does that work in the mountain bikes where the sitting position is very different. I've been riding on my old-fashioned (relatively long and low stem) XC mountainbike with no saddle discomfort at all but I struggle a lot finding the position on my trail bike, where you sit pretty much upright.
Sitting up is the problem. You can't transfer your weight to the pedals sitting up. It creates a high center of balance. A long stem keeps the front down when climbing. Un weight your hands, where does the weight go? The saddle or the pedals..
Devery Andrews I understand that idea -- but that assumes that your body is prioritizing your reach over which part of the saddle is the most comfortable / best suited for your pelvic position. Most of the time this won't be the case. Plus with moving the saddle forward there are diminishing returns because as you go forward you exert less posterior force on the pelvis and increase the likelihood that it's going to slip forward. You're absolutely correct to consider the tilt of the saddle...something I'll go into more in the next video on this topic -- I didn't want to muddy the waters and make the video 5 minutes longer...
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense as up to something like 8-10cm of shortened reach (assuming that we're looking to find the saddle position first without fiddling too much with the bars) can be accomplished artificially just by just shifting the hands back onto the road bars instead of the hoods and then even further by just asking the rider use their fingertips to stabilize themselves on the bars to conduct the test while on a trainer. Figure out reach after you figure out the saddle position. Once the rider's hands are off the bars and the rider is beginning to sit up per the test reach doesn't play a role anymore so the rider sliding forward indicates that the rider's leverage on the pedals and balance drag their pelvis forward toward a neutral balance position and you want to exacerbate that by moving the rider further back? Does seem quite strange logic.
+OhAiShare there's a difference between bar position and reach especially when your unclear on your saddle fore aft position. You can have the wrong bar position, the wrong fore aft but have the correct reach. By knowing what's close to your optimal reach you can eliminate it as a reason for slipping forward or being unstable on the saddle. If you have close to the right reach and you fail the test and need to move the saddle back, then moving the bars back to maintain the reach is what I discussed in the video. And, yes, you can just shift your hands back on the bars or go on to your fingertips to see where you pass the test but this won't help you find your best hip position on the bike...it'll help you find your best bar position based on your potentially compromised hip/saddle fore aft position.
Again, having perfect reach is nearly irrelevant for this test as how simple it is to move your hand position that handful of cm that you may be moving the saddle on the rails as the rider doesn't need to stabilize themselves over long periods or on a dynamic bike. It's on a bike fixed to a trainer so moving the hands or even using fingertips to simulate a reach adjustment is perfectly fine before physically moving the bars. A rider can change hand position at will to compensate for the range of adjustment of the saddle rails. Hence why for this sitting up test trying to make the bar position or reach a big factor is ultimately silly for this specific balance test, as that's all this is. As for hip impingement that's a different issue compared to balance point and should be considered as much. Balance is still the balance point and where you should set your saddle by, if one's hips allow it. If not adjust for the best compromise between the two but to say this sit up test is an indicator of hip impingement is a very poor viewpoint from a professional bike fitter as this sit up test is not an indicator of ideal hip angles.
The basic idea here, I think, is this: If you stand normally and then bend about 45 degrees forward at the hip joints with your arms out in front of you, your rear end will move rearward to maintain balance. This is essentially the position you're trying to duplicate with the fore/aft adjustment. If the seat is too far forward, it puts your center of gravity too far forward and your arms will have to work harder to prevent you from sliding forward in the seat. I did the same thing as you at first, but found that moving the seat rearward worked much better for me.
Hi John! Could you get into this subject for more agressive riders such as track riders that most of the time ride their saddles forward on the limits of UCI rules. As well as for Time Trial riders who keep sliding forward during the event. I know that competitive cycling, mainly short events, are more directed into pain threshold than an actual confortable fit, but once I learned that the more confortable we are, the more we produce on the bike. So if you could make a video regarding this aspect of cycling, I'd appreciate!
I'm pretty sure this has been addressed but I'd like to ask anyway. When it comes to the balance test, how does the power you're putting out effect balance? Does using oval chainrings effect how you set fore aft?
Looks like the seat angle is tilted slightly to the back from level which may put pressure undue pressure on the prostate zone. Tilted too far forward can put pressure on the lower back over time.
If you are slipping forward on your seat, the cause more than likely is bad spinal flexibilty. In that, you are having to tilt your pelvis too much to reach the handlebars. Being able to bend your mid back(thoracic spine) more will allow your pelvis ro stay more vertical at the same time of extending your reach. If you are in (or attempting) an aero position and your back is straight, you are doing it wrong. Look at every pro rider, they have amazing back flexibility and able to get in a deep aero position but note how their pelvis are still very upright. Took me a long time to figure out why ny hands were always going numb and I could never seem to find that perfect seat position.. it wasnt the bike, it was me that needed work.
Hello ,I need a consultant to determine which suitable size of bike to fit well on my height 184cm. So the bike is Pinarello fp3 ETT 58 / vertical 60. Please feedback
Hi John, I called a bike fitter in my area and asked for a fitting on my mountain bike. I told him I was getting numb on my right side in my genital area. I wanted to try different saddles. Ive gone through a lot of your videos and have tried to get the fit as close as possible with the camera and software you talked about. They told me you cant do a fitting on a mountain bike and I should just buy different saddles until I find one I like. I don't have an extra thousand dollars to try all the shapes. What should I do to relive this numbness? Or is it going to be explained in this upcoming series? Thanks in advance!
Seems that test would always fail for a track, tt, tri bike regardless. And for mtb even with the long reach steep seat tube common for trail bikes, it would always succeed. Is this rule only for typical recreational roadies with a short reach and high stack height?
I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong, or there's something I'm not thinking about. I'm pretty sure I would fail the balance test, but I don't understand why this is a bad a situation for me. As I've gotten more serious about cycling and racing, I've gotten into a lower and longer position. At this point, I ride in the drops almost always unless I'm eating/drinking or climbing a big hill. I even train in the drops on my indoor trainer so that I stay trained to an aggressive position year round. Riding in a more upright position almost feels weird to me unless I'm just poking along and chatting with folks on a group ride. I don't experience discomfort in this aggressive position anymore--not even on all-day outings. I used to a little when I was less trained, but now not any more. And since I'm not fighting the air as much, I can go faster for longer distances with less fatigue in my legs. So, the main reason I'm putting my saddle further forward is that I'm having trouble getting my hip angle opened up as much as I want. If I push my saddle back, it feels as if I'm in a deep squat with my knees almost knocking my chest when I ride in the drops. So then I unconsciously move my hips forward and ride on the rivet, which isn't comfortable and puts my saddle effectively too low, which kills my power. So rather than fight my body over where my hips seem to want to be, I just move my saddle forward and upward. I also bought a Specialized Power saddle, which is flatter in cross-section and has a sort of delta-like shape to it that brings the effective support to the sit-bones further forward while taking pressure off the front-most soft-tissues, which was previously causing numbness and aching. So, I'm curious to know, even though I am supporting a significant percent of my upper body weight with my arms and wrists, if this isn't causing me any fatigue or discomfort, do I still need to be concerned? Would I get more power to the cranks if I were to make an adjustment somehow that would allow me to not fall forward?
Uh oh. I haven't even been thinking of that. At the amateur level, does anyone really care if my bike geometry is a tiny bit outside of UCI regulations here or there? I actually haven't heard of anyone running into problems with "small-potatoes" stuff like that other than at the pro level.
It's all a matter of priorities. If you really care about that low aero position or if you prioritize bike handling and less shoulder/arm (admittedly you said it's a non issue) more. As when you move the saddle forward you change the rider and bike COG usually compromising the handling slightly because more weight is now on the front wheel. Taking into account you can't quite as easily move the weight around, because you're admittedly in an unbalanced position, hurts what the rider can do near the limits of traction because you're essentially falling forward all the time. The additional weight on the shoulders and arms is there too but seems you've developed the strength to cope with it. If you're really up against the UCI limit on a road bike then very much would consider giving up a touch of aero and move further back as the UCI limit is pretty dang far forward even for a fully slammed pro using 140+mm stems on bikes one to two sizes too small.
Didn't the UCI just change the rule on set back for 2017 and further? Also what size crank arms do you use? You may benefit from having slightly shorter arms that won't drive your knees into your chest as much.
Erik, your saddle is too low or your cranks are too long. Move your cleats all the way towards the heal, raise the seat and try again. Most of your weight should be applied to the pedals, you should be light on your saddle and hands. Using all that energy holding yourself up is wasted endurance energy. Next time you ride.. in the drops unweight your hands and see where the weight goes, hopefully to the pedals.
Wow! I started racing 33 years ago and the knee over pedal was like the first thing we looked at. We then would change the stem to match. I am now enlightened! When I coach people these days I want to see them be able to easily lift their hands off the bars without sitting up. Often I see a lot of tension in shoulders and the arms. I loved this video
I have been changing around with my saddle and stem length and this is so far the best video I found when it comes to fore and aft of your saddle. I already saw a few that recommended to check the balance, however this one precisely explains which actions indicate which problem.
I recently shortened my stem length and I will do some balance tests to see if I need to shorten it further and go back some more. Also I tilted my saddle, which is increasing the comfort but making holding the balance a bit more difficult.
That was the absolute best, and most discriptive leson on fitting a bike that I've ever had the pleasure to see.You explained everything in very understandable detail that anybody could understand without getting to scientific and detailed, At no time at all did I feel the need to pause your video and run to dig out anything but a pencil and a measuring tape. No slide rule, no calculous. Thank you!🤙
Finally. We have a guy here who speaks sense. So thank you very much.
Really useful. I took the test and ended up moving my saddle 5mm back and noticed a marked improvement in comfort. Thanks for the information, clear and well-presented.
I watched this video last night. Recently, I've noticed that when I took my hands off the bars and sat up (while riding a trainer), that I was in fact sliding forward. Today, before getting on the bike, I slid the saddle back 3-4mm. I had been using the plumb line from the knee method only. I immediately felt better on the bike and stayed put when I sat up with no hands. Less strain on the abs also. I felt during the session that I had a bit more power and bonus: the chronic hand numbness I've been getting was much less pronounced. Thanks. I wish I lived out there (I'm in Toronto). I would bring my bike and have you do the whole fit routine.
if you did not slide forward anymore, he recommends you to move it forward.
one key thing here that shouldn't be overlooked is that when your bike is on the trainer the front wheel needs lifting to ensure your saddle is level (or in the same position) as it would be on level ground - otherwise you've missed a really important factor. I'm not saying you've missed this, but I bet tonnes of people don't consider this properly. Even with a riser my front wheel is slightly lower than when the bike is on the ground.
I tried to understand and analyze this video but ended up very confused. It's not clear if we should move the saddle forwards or backwards. I also saw the previous test video and they mentioned you can get a "positive" result test while here they mention a "failed" test, and it seems that both positive and failed are the same? That's contradictory. What should we do if we perform the test and our hip slides forward? What should we do if we use too much abs muscles? What should we do if our cadence is notoriously increased? Thanks.
+mcclausky apologies, especially on that first video I got stuck in my PT-centric speak a bit -- positive sign/failed test, negative sign etc. If you slide forward, have to use abs excessively, or increase cadence a lot then you may want to try the saddle back a little. A little movement can go a long way. And you'll have to decide based on your fitness, mobility, riding style etc how much you want to bias your weight back versus on the front end of the bike. But most riders can make a very small aft saddle adjustment (with perhaps a stem adjustment to equalize the cockpit length) and feel more stable on their saddle. There's no requirement to move the saddle until you can do the test without any of the negative outcomes (hips sliding etc) but if you're having issues in the bike -- whether they're saddle discomfort or hand pressure, neck pain...whatever -- changing the balance in this way could be a means of remedying them partially or entirely. Thanks for watching....
have to agree. I am a PT with several decades experience with GC riders, and this was painful and confusing to listen to.
'using your abs excessively'? compared to what?
Not a lot of genuine pro rider tech makes it down to the local bike fitter and shop level imo.
1.
Pros overall buy one frame size down on what is recommended by the manufacturer. Why? because they want to get their stem down lower for aero advantage. They also work like hell on spine flexibility and low bodyfat%, and have a skeletal system that can tolerate the higher hip flexion angle associated with a lower back angle.
How much you use your abs when you sit up from the bars will depend on the height diff between saddle and stem. This PT doesn't consider that.
2.
There's been a trend in the last 15 years to move the saddle further forwards. Why? because it allows one to use a higher cadence, especially ascending.
3. pros use longer stems for two reasons - they use a frame 1 size too small, and because having their center of gravity further forwards gives better bike handling when descending and cornering. If you want to stop death wobble, move your center of gravity forwards by leaning down lower towards the top tube and stem. if you want better control in corners, your saddle is better forward as much as legally allowed and use an appropriate length stem to maximize your back angle without compromising hip joint angle, breathing, and power generation.
4. as for cleat position, that comes down to power generation for a individual courses. ideal cleat position for climbs is not the same for flats.
5. knee angles? the old adage that 25-30 degrees is a good starting point for triathletes, and 30-35 for road cyclists.
What trumps all this though is individual rider comfort on the bike. Without exception, riders have asymmetries and pain issues that take precedence over what's theoretically ideal.
Criticism taken, not my best video, and I'll do better next time.
With all due respect though, you've never done a bike fit, have you? Be honest. Because your point #5 about knee angles isn't even arguably correct...it's just wrong. The "old adage" of 25-35 degrees hasn't been used in about 25 years since we've had the benefit of dynamic measuring in bike fit. Additionally a triathlon setup will generally (on average) have slightly more knee bend, so less extension than the typical road position. (As a test, you should pull 10 triathletes out of a local race and give them all a dynamically measured knee extension angle of 25-30 degrees and I guarantee you'll have 10 unhappy triathletes).
Before you condescend about the information not getting to "local bike fitters" please do your homework....
Have I ever done a bike fit? Wow!
If you are asking that based on point 5, can you read it again with a cool head. I said the old adage is a good starting point, a distinction you must have overlooked.
optimal knee angle varies based on course terrain and cadence.
Being the seasoned bike fitter you are, I am sure you aware of the pitfalls of recommending one knee angle for all occasions.
Have a great day!
To be truthful, yes, your recommendation on point #5 did make me think that. I'm sorry, but the "old adage" and how you noted it, is a terrible starting point -- as I said before the range is wrong (recommending too much extension) and it's dangerous to propose that a cyclist should expect to have more knee extension on their triathlon bike than on the road bike. That's actually the only reason I decided to weigh in in the first place -- I'm only stepping in on some of these threads when the information provided by someone could set back or harm a rider who decides to take the advice. Have a good day as well...
John, Thank you! You have managed to approach and explain the fore/aft position with in relation to the reach of the handle bar and the healthy body position, that it all makes perfect sense! I dot have a trainer, but can't wait for the rain stop so I can confirm the above. In my case I have a 110 mm (which is really more soo a 114mm) steam, so I think I should be able to make is shorter in order to get the good body position. Thank you again! All the best from Austria. Adrian
I'm no bike fitter, but I am a former marathoner and do understand the bio-mechanics behind the test. The position of your body mass relative to the crank changes based on seat position. The key is having your body mass balanced against the force applied while pedaling normally. When the seat is too far forward, the force is mostly vertical, and does not apply enough rearward force to keep your body in position without your arms holding it there. This is why you move forward in the saddle with this condition. Moving the seat back relative to the crank produces more rearward force from pedaling, and balances with your body mass so your arms don't have to work to keep your position on the saddle.
Thank you!
Yep. And also, working on thoracic spine flexibility will allow you to reach further without having to tilt your pelvis forward. That way you keep you sit bones holding you on your seat and not your sensitive parts.
@@iwontreplybacklol7481so keeping saddle forward is better ? In my bike have saddle all the way forward , it’s what I’ve found the best in terms of comfort and power , I have a hybrid bike
I agree it's a bit confusing. One minute it seems to say that you should slide forward, then says you shouldn't.... I think the best way is to go as far forward as you can whilst still being able to ride for hours and hours (however many hours you ride for) without neck or shoulder pain, or pins and needles in fingers. Or front of knee pain!. Just keep sliding saddle back until the latter stops happening. I find that that spot leaves my kneecaps about 1cm in front of KOPS. One method that works well is "can you lift both hands off the bars together, or do you need to do them one at a time?" Ideally you can lift both hands off the hoods together without a big strain. Oh and saddle needs to be level and the right height for all this to work (heels scraping pedals). Then position bars so you use all parts of them without strain.
Just understood that I need a shorter top tube. Best help in a long time. Understand now why I feel too much weight on my hands. Thanks!
thanks for this video. I was sliding forward slightly when doing this test, or I had to push off the handlebars a little bit. sliding my seat back about 0.5-0.75cm made a world of difference, as it was apparently set about 0.25cm forward from center of the saddle rails.
Oooh wow. So for years I've been riding with my saddle too much forward because of that BS 'knee vertical to the saddle' rule.. Everything feels better now with the saddle 1.5 cm backwards ! Thank you soo much !
Great info and thanks so very much......again as I've watched it repeatedly.
i've been having saddle discomfort and i've tried several saddles , played around with the angle tilt but forgot about trying a different fore aft position (slaps head) moving the saddle back about 1cm for me made a fairly uncomfortable ride transform into a much better one!
For those trying to get into an optimal aero position, a more forward seat position in relation to the bottom bracket opens up the hip angle and allows rider to generate more power for the same given torso angle. Often this will compromise the hands off test. Which is more important? It depends on the priorities of the rider.
Isn't that incorrect? Moving forward does open up the hips more but removes more of the larger glute from the power cycle. So it's more aero but less powerful position. That's why most people don't produce as much power on their TT bike even when not tucked into the skis. It's because they are further forward of the bottom bracket so less glute activation. At least that's my understanding.
love your videos. i got a fit earlier this year and i didnt feel like it was right so i made some adujstments and after watching your video i can tell that my sweet spot in somewhere in the middle of the 2. thank you
Could you do a vid on posture/fit for straight handlebar bikes?
I’ve found that moving the saddle forward a bit increases my speed and power. I ride a Giant Defy which has slightly more slack seat tube angle which would place the saddle a little farther behind the bottom bracket so moving the saddle forward a bit makes sense.
Absolutely, and I think each of us has a different amount that we want to be behind the bottom bracket
The sitting up test is a BALANCE test, so please listen to the results of the test! When you release the bars and begin to sit up if you're using your pedaling motion to push yourself backwards on the saddle to maintain a slow and steady sitting up motion then move the saddle backwards. BUT if your pedaling motion starts to drag you forward once you release the bars (these are both using level saddles) move the saddle FORWARD and not backward like the video details. The test is a BALANCE test and you can be on either side of the balance so adjust according to your needs. Do not fear moving your saddle forward if your weight distribution and positional balance dictates you should!
ehm.. if you balance on a bar and feel you are falling to the right, do you try to shift your center of gravity further to the right?
@@markuswahl2281 - That isn't what's going on here as on the bike without bars you're not in free fall like the example you're making. You're still attached to the bike in two locations - the saddle and the pedals. To stabilize the upper body you use leverage from those two contact points.
@@Vermonstered I'm sorry my friend, that doesn't make even the slightest sense.
@@markuswahl2281- I'm sorry then, you seemingly are not understanding leverage, the effects of pedaling dynamics or what is affected when moving the rider cog further back. Unfortunately, per your example, we aren't standing bolt upright when riding a bike. We're bent over with the primary balance point being the saddle position relative to the bottom bracket. Not understanding this makes it kinda pointless to explain but just try the extreme experiment of your version. Throw the saddle as far back as possible and try and sit up while pedaling, you're going to drag your butt forward to sit up because of the increased force necessary due to how far outside your butt is outside your body's COG and the change in direction of the leverage needed to sit up. Because of the increased forces and more acute hip angle you're forced to pull on the pedals to stabilize your upper body which pulls the rider toward the bottom bracket - which is now further in forward. So by your own fail state one would move the saddle further backward which only exasperates the problem until you simply can't mount the saddle to the bike anymore. Try it.
Edit: Or even try the opposite. Flip the seatpost around if you have an offset seatpost and slam the saddle all the way forward. You're going to find yourself trying to push yourself backwards on the saddle to sit up. Both of these results are exactly opposite of your understanding. Your understanding is of a 1) static object and 2) an object balanced at it's ends. Neither of which is what we'd consider a cyclist.
@@Vermonstered Easy there, cowboy. I would advise you to be more careful when throwing around these semi-academic words if you don't have a good understanding of them. I think I will agree to disagree with you. I'm sorry for offending you!
Thank you for the great content.
Is it okay to make the saddle all the way backward and ride?
I know it's an older video but good info here ! just reinforced my thoughts on dialing in my fit.. thank you !
I like when people know what they talk about 🤙
Word
Im not quite sure why you recommend moving the saddle back if in the test one naturally slides forward and then comes to rest? Wouldn't putting the saddle back make it even worse???
Well his description of symptoms is weird too... Cadence increasing is good ✔ having to use abdominals ✔ sliding forward is bad???
If you slide forward when you lift your hands from the bar, it's because you are too far forward in relation to the pedals.
If you move the saddle back then, you will be pushing yourself back onto the saddle more with your peddling (hence increased cadence)
Hi John..Excellent tutorial...One thing I have done is I recently purchased an inexpensive set of magnetic rollers,not so much for off-season training but as an aid to monitor bike fit.I firmly believe that nothing beats an experienced bike fitter, but the ability to check one's own cycling position on the bike,without worrying about outside influences,i.e. traffic,I find invaluable.A good example would be setting up cleats on a new shoe/pedal combo,or dialing in a new saddle...Once again,nothing replaces professional advice,but may simply augment it....Cheers!!
I just got a new bike with very different geometry than my last one (endurance frame to race frame), and this was super helpful for me! I found I was putting too much pressure through my hands on longer rides. Turns out that dropping the saddle about 1.5 cm and then pushing it back around 7-8 cm did wonders for comfort and stability. Despite that change, it did not really change my reach too much (although I'm playing with that now that the saddle is set) because both lowering and pushing it back kept the distance to the bars relatively the same. Still need to fully dial it in, but it's way better than it had been.
@Unknown Yep, definitely meant mm.
Excellent. You are the first person I met knows the plumb line is a correlation way which is a less practical method.
John thanks as always, for such free useful info. I always thought knee over pedal was a kind of wonky standard. I do use the plumb bob just as a general, but it never became more apparent when I changed to a Pro Stealth. For some reason the geometry of the saddle and fitting it, showed me I was way off with my previous Fizik antares. By the way the Pro Stealth has been an enlightenment to me, at least indoors, so far. Thanks again!
So what I've gathered is more often than not you want to put the seat back a bit?
I used to meticulously use a plum bob to get my knee directly over the spindle. Now I just center the rails and ride.
yeah I've also found the middle works best.. I've fannied about a lot and found that 'somewhere in the middle' is a good compromise.
@@syrus3k ah yes! one of the best sayings, 'to fanny about'
When your stable on the bike, you know it, that feeling of stability, smooth power transfer, control and comfort is obvious. I faffed around with my fit over the years, big set back, reach and all that. Then one day, I was going through a web site with a pro cyclist's bike, which happened to include the rider's fit and height. After digging around I came up with 10 or so riders similar to myself, then averaged up their fits, and changed the bike according... The surprise was when I got on it and rode around, it felt amazing, bit of lowered saddle, moved the saddle forward a bit and bar height. I've had it like that for 3 years and as you suggested I did the test with hands off the bars... no sliding and I can ride easily.
Doesn't work for everyone, I'm sure but my methodology worked for me...
Do you remember what website that was?
@@Ansf3R I think it was Bike Radar, have a hunt around here.... www.bikeradar.com/search/?searchTerm=pro+bikes
running into knee pain on my enduro mtb even though i've matched my saddle height to my trail mtb bike. Thinking this might be due to the slacker seat angle and longer cranks. What's a good way to set fore aft on an enduro style bike?
I think go by feel. Is that the best way?
I think not always. It could put you in a position where you initially feel comfortable but could end up developing a bad habit or putting your knee in a weird position por an injury
Thanks for this video. I have a Hybrid bike...does the same test apply for Hybrid as well?
It would be awesome if you could explain a little about the biomechanics of this test and why saddle position causes knee pain
I’ve done this test, my saddle is as far back as I can get it and have a 70mm stem, but I’m still failing and falling forwards. You say if the saddle is all the way forward the bike is the wrong size but is this the same if saddle is all the way back? Thanks
Very interesting video, but do you answer any of the questions posted in the comments?
Doesn't the saddle tilt greatly affect this balance test?
Should this be done on a leveled saddle or on preferred tilt?
Level saddle for this test as this just establishes a starting point. Then tilt the saddle as needed for flexibility and adjust fore/aft to stabilize the pelvis after the tilt.... but like always changing the rider position over the bottom bracket changes the pelvis angle which may warrant a saddle change.
if i slide forward, couldnt this also be a sign that my saddle angle is to much in the negatives? im having it around 2-3 degrees because it takes the pressure away from the sensitive parts down there, i am already using a saddle with a big cutout also. havent tried to bring my saddle back yet, will give it a try :)
i have broken a couple of seat rails, i am now concerned about this more than fit, if i need any input on the position of the strongest position on the rails to withstand weight ?
I want to see how do you do it?
What kind of tool ?!!!!!
Hello again; this is good. One question: if we are looking to find a bit of "flat area" to sit on, bringing the saddle back would tend to place the narrower part at the center Potentially, in order to find that flat area, we would need to slide back, causing a need to extend our reach. Just a point that I did not quite grasp. That notwithstanding, the presentation is very helpful and provides orientation; I will begin to experiment and hope to solve my saddle problems. Many thanks for the advice.
just a little confused. What does a (+) positive test mean? Does it mean that you NEED to experience the mentioned symptoms (cadence going a little higher, torso moving forward/back,..) to determine that you are balance? or if i dont experience any of the symptoms it means that i am out of balance. It seems like if your saddle is too far forward you will NOT experience any of the + symptom so a bad bike fit?
If you get a positive It means that your balance is off and should try moving the saddle back a bit or that your reach is to long/low
Is any of this information related to mountain bikes?
Hello, Thank you for the vid. Handlebar being the same position. wouldn't moving saddle back cause your back angle to drop making it harder for the rider to do the lift up test? I was just curious because that you mentioned, if test fails you recommend pushing the saddle back, and if it is too easy you recommend pushing saddle forward, wouldn't that shorten the reach and raise the back angle making the easy test easier? am I missing something here? thanks
Nevermind. I get your point. I was just kind of fiddling around on the office chair after watching your vid. then realized that if position of hip is more to the back you do not topple forward, I was thinking this in correlation to the reach so much so that what you said did not make sense. now it does. have to think reach separately.. completely take it out of saddle position equation.
What exactly is the goal of adjusting fore and aft? I am thinking in terms of cadence, sliding fore or aft. What is the effect of too far aft? Cadence goes down? Slide back? What makes a person slide foreward when the seat is too far foreward? How are the forces transmitted to the seat?
I'm not an expert so maybe I'm wrong but I believe the fwd aft position is not very important (assuming the saddle is horizontal) because you'll naturally sit in the right spot so that you can pedal comfortably. Then the correct position would be the one where you have better support on the sitting bones (example if the saddle is too much back you'll be sitting on the nose of the saddle etc). Is this a good way of thinking about it?
no because there's nothing holding you in that position. You'll just slide forward to te point where your legs are at the correct position for peddling...
Yes. Your hips normally tend to move to the right spot during pedaling. Because of this, using a flat saddle that's leveled, the fore/aft- positioning is not that big of an issue. How ever, with a curved saddle that raises from center to tail and nose, it's a completely different game. Sliding your hips 1 cm forward from the center and your pelvis starts tilting backwards. Sliding your hip 1 cm backwards from the center, and your pelvis starts to tilt forwards. That's why the fore/aft -positioning is very important.
I've been following alot of the seat height / seat positions for a long time now, but it dawned on me. Will these measurements work with the mullet set ups? Wouldn't pulling the seat back further unload the front? Or could offsetting the wheel size with tire size remedy this. I'm running 24/26 26/27 26/29 and 27/29s mixed between hard tail and full suspensions.
I'm not exactly clear. So, I should be speeding up my cadence to pass?
The problem I have with the balance method test is that it depends so much on what force you are exerting in the pedals. You suggest "a little above an easy pedaling gear." But that can mean so many things to so many people. A little more force and you pass the test. A little less force and you fail the rest. Seems about as vague as the knee over the spindle test. No disrespect intended. Just sayin'. BTW, Phil Burt says that if you're going to use the KOPS method, he recommends simply taking a straight edge and place it against the front of the knee in the 3 o'clock position. Hanging freely, the straight edge should intersect the FRONT of the pedal spindle.
Excellent video - so in summary if you raise the had and there is no moment - you pass the test. If you raise your hand and shift forward or / or have problems riasing up you are either too far back or forward? Excellent video. Greetings from Ireland.
Martin Lynch Just about -- if you raise your hands up and your hips shift forward your saddle could be too far forward -- or -- it could be perfect or too far back and the problem is that the reach to the bars is too long which draws the pelvis forward. The solution would be to come close to normalizing the reach, then re-do the test. We need to eliminate the reach as the problem before moving forward.
Once we do this, if the test tells us to move the saddle (either direction), we can take appropriate steps to keep the reach the same by changing the stem length.
this helped me...thank you
My saddle is already in most aft position and I change also the stem length.. The shortest but still my knee is not in position to the pedal. What should I do? I already corrected my saddle heght
Finally, some authentic knowledge!!! Refreshing!! Thank you so very much.
How do you know what is too far back?
Since we are clipped into the pedals, won't our bodies naturally fall into the same position over the BB, and thus, we just have to move the seat to support that comfort/movement? By being locked onto the bike, our bodies will naturally go forward or backwards based on mechanics at that point, so the seat is just there to support the motion.
Any suggestions on how to adjust the saddle for those of us that don’t have a trainer to hold our bike? Entry Level cyclist☺️
He said toward the end of the video that you can perform the test on the road by lifting your hands slightly off the hoods and seeing if your position changes.
What recourse might I have if a bike shop sold me a bike that was probably too small for me? I have been riding it for 8 years now and have many miles on it. But no matter how much I practice, I always have a sore butt and numb hands. I realize now that my top tube is really short for my height (54cm, 6'1" me). Will increasing the stem length help? I definitely fail this test, but the saddle is already at its limit. I feel like my LBS was trying to get rid of the last of their previous year's stock on me the more I think about it. CAADX 105 cross bike for reference.
Hi.
I'd like to know what experience in carrying out bike fits you have?
Over how many years you've been doing such?
Where you've developed your methods from?
How much you charge please?
Thank you
If the hip moves ahead, the saddle has to be moved back? I thought saddle need to move ahead, right ?
HI John, useful video thank you! I tried your test and passed first time..! I do wonder how a guy like Adam Hansen survives with his oddball position.... Certainly one of a kind!
It's very clrar to me.
If you can't get up from your handlebars without speading up your cadance a lot, you have to put the saddle a little bit back.
That's all.
Simple, elegant, and wrong.
This is a ridiculous procedure to set saddle for aft position. What credentials does this guy have? This is just WRONG. Knee position in relation to pedal spindle is still a relative measurement. And you don't adjust reach to the bars by saddle position. You get your saddle position in height and relation to knee and pedal spindle and BB then you get your reach dialed in based on flexibility / arm length. Of course he never mentioned that you set your cleats up first so that doesn't change the whole equation once they are set!
So lets assume this guys fit advice is correct. Now you are on your bike which came with a 120 stem and a low (race ) bar position..so you are pretty stretched out...try to sit up using his advice, very difficult. You are going to be attempting to adjust saddle position disregarding knee position to compensate for a long stem or lack of flexibility? No completely wrong.
@@shooter7a great response ..concise, pithy and correct...
What ever adjustments you do, be sure to do them after a 2 hours ride, when ever you are tired. Look how uncomfortable professional riders look after a few hours on the road. Get adjusted so you don't suffer at the end.
This.
yup.. 100% everything feels fine at the start of the ride.. it's only into a longer ride will you *know* whether you made a good adjustment or a silly one.
also intensity of the ride can help speed that knowledge up
@@dcolum23 What he said
I have a large lapierre adious 200 . I'm 5'8-5'9 . How can I get the bike to me ? Can you tell me what all to do ?
Get a bike fit if you are not sure and start from there as a base. I'm at a good saddle height, but I suffer from occasional numb hands which can be I have too much weight on my hands. I probably have to move the saddle a little to help get any excessive weight off the bars. It makes sense that if you move the saddle enough to get a successful test can also contribute to getting excessive weight off the bars to where you could possibly address hand numbness or at least reduce it.
I think he dead...
If you can't answer, maybe someone from the audience can... Do these tips apply to motorcycles as well? I got bars that we're a bit taller and a bit further back, that solved my wrist and arm issues because I no longer have to lock my arms because it was impossible to lean further forward. But, I get pain in the saddle and knees. Should I spend money on adjustable pegs to change my position?
Hi! Great vídeo! Like all of them! But there's something that I'm not getting. If you fail the lift up test by sliding forward or streessing your abs too much, shouldn't we move the saddle forward, instead of backwards?
I was interested on my next road bike purchase to buy intentionally one size smaller frame 54 instead of 56 (I'm 178 cm tall) and use longer stem (120 or more compared to 100 mm on 56 frame), any thoughts on that, what will I gain and lose in that case, I want to mimic more of that pro setup just without that extreme saddle to bar drop
They Live We See A downside might be that if you opt for the smaller size your possible bar height will be lower -- the smaller bike will have a shorter head tube and this leads to more saddle to bar drop.
That said, in a lot of circumstances (but certainly not all) when a rider is between sizes the smaller frame is often the safer bet.
thanks for the reply, also I have specific problem of bike fit because I have the worst body type for proper fitting, I have short arms and torso and really long femur bones so when I pedal I feel cramped (not pinching) in my hip area like in a situation when you are doing squats with overly narrow stance from what is ideal for you so I though to try the smallest cranks 165 mm to open my hip angle more, you see the way my femur attaches to the hip if I drive it too much into flexion it leaves with no space to move in acetabulum so it pulls my pelvis into posterior tilt so I always end up pushing my knees to the side a little
In 99.9% of the situations, it's better to go smaller when between sizes. It's always easier to make a smaller frame fit you than a larger one when between sizes. Don't let anyone tell you different.
What is the frame geometry?
The balance test is a good way to unweighted the upper body which doesn't cycle. That of course is a common sense thing to do.
However, a balance position may not be the right position for the legs/foots as far as applying forces on the pedals.
My experiences show too much rearward saddle results in ineffective pedaling forces. The cycling become unnecessarily heavy on the crank arms.
I am kind of thinking, if a balance do result in heavy legs, maybe the option is to go for the position of most effective pedaling saddle position and to take care of the bar position by altering the stem etc.
Sometimes the best bike fitter doesn't give us a more comfortable cycling position because we aren't use to the ideal position as yet or our body is weak at some points.
I always thought that plumb bob technique was screwy because I felt like I had to reach out to the 3 o’clock position. I dig the videos but I generally go by feel and so far so good.
Hello John. When I got a bikefit, my saddle was placed more to the front, and after all the settings, this was the last test, that resulted on tilting the saddle up, to avoid me sliding front. My stem got slammed, and I feel I could go way lower and longer (its a canyon endurace). Maybe the whole fit was badly adressed, and I should be having the saddle back and leveled? I feel great in this position though.
+Joao Godinho you don't necessarily need it to be back. If in your current position you're well balanced, you don't have any saddle problems and your overall comfort on the bike is good, then this could be just fine. A lot depends on the reasoning behind moving you forward in the fitting...if it was done for solid mechanical reasons then great. But if it was done to satisfy some arbitrary rule like KOPS then probably not such a good idea.
There's a chance that with your saddle back slightly and your stem shortened an equal amount, you'd be just as aero but perhaps with overall better balance (not saying this absolutely would be the case, only that it's possible). Your bar position would still be as low and the relative length of the cockpit would be the same but your weight wouldn't be as forward on the bike.
Basically, no result given in the video! All the bike fit systems are guess work. The only system that really works is trial and error: get on the bike and ride for at least half an hour at a relatively high pace, then make adjustments, then try again, then make refinements, etc. It is possible that the stem length and/height might need changing, and the seat post layback (or not) distance could be very wrong - resulting in the need to change this too. The 'take-away': a bike fit will only help to choose an approximation of dimensions but you have to ride the bike and make adjustments over time.
That's why you do a fit dynamically on a fit bike, before you buy a bike in the first place.
@@Geeios1 Ah, such insight. So every time you buy a new saddle one must buy a new bike. Gotcha.
@@psycheout4733 no, since you have the correct bike and fit in the first place. All you have to do is take measurements remove and replace the saddle, position it to measurements. No guess work or trial and error. , might be hard for you though.
@@Geeios1And where do you measure the new saddle to be millimeter perfect? The seated position is not the same on every saddle relative to the nose, tail, side profile of each saddle. You won't have that accuracy with measurement unless it's the same saddle where you can take the same reference points. So might be hard for you too. ;)
Though per your bike fit you're right. Take measurements and transplant the fit onto a new bike. Hence you don't need to get "fit dynamically on a fit bike before you buy a bike in the first place." Stack and reach ranges is all you need to know when buying a new bike and it's fairly easy finding what suits a rider w/o having to pay for a dynamic fit on a fit bike to get the very basic range of what range they're looking for. But think that might be getting too technical for you.
@@psycheout4733 why are you changing saddles? The title of the video is determining fore aft position of the saddle. Where would you start? How would you know it felt better or worse if it isn't positioned exactly where the other saddle was? Measure from the nose of the saddle to the center of the topcap bolt, don't forget the adjust to the correct height. It will be a combination of the two until it's set.
Assuming that the saddle height is correct before any fore/aft adjustments do you usually find a need to change the height afterwards?
I'm having hip pain when we are pacing, can the fore aft of the saddle be the cause of it? It doesn't hurt when we're chill riding. Or could it be spmething else?
Love your videos 😍
So what is the consensus of my saddle is all the way back, but I still feel like there is too much weight on my hands?
Too much reach maybe? I have the reverse where my seat is all the way forward because my reach felt long already. After an hour or so, my hand start going numb. I just moved the saddle back a bit, but then it makes my reach longer so will have to see. Might have to get a shorter stem too.
I am a senior rider and I have been cycling for over 25 years and I have used the plumb bob method and never had a knee issue.
Mine are always slammed forwards to the limit. Then I’m right over the cranks in an aggressive position. Pumps out more watts. It’s like a TT position.
Adam Mills what about your neck, does it hurt fr days after you ride
@@fgalan1956 Not anymore. Regular rides get you used to the position.
Awesome..... always awesome! If I ever get a chance to travel to the states I want to book some time with you John. Cheers for the free information.
This solved a major problem for me. Thanks man!
What factor does the saddle play in this scenario? My fitter wanted to help me rotate my hips more to compensate for arthritis. He put me on an SMP saddle. The high back of the saddle makes it hard and uncomfortable to take both hands off the bars. Your opinion is appreciated. Thanks
+Rich Kaplan hmm, arthritis where? And they wanted you to rotate your hips/pelvis forward into anterior tilt to straighten your spine, or back to flex your spine? Just trying to get the proper scenario in mind...
Bike Fit Adviser I have arthritis in my hips and I am scheduled for a left hip replacement in April. I think he was trying to open up the hip angle since the arthritis is limiting my range of movement. Can't raise my left knee as high as normal. This is also causing me to sit on an angle and my left knee moves outward as I raise the knee up when pedaling. He also switched me to 165 cranks and moved the saddle somewhat forward. He thought the smp saddle would help me to sit more "normal". He also moved my left cleat back and kept my right cleat in its original position. I am riding a BMC Road Machine. Boy, I'm a complicated case!
Should I move my seat all the way forward ?
Hi john, I had foot problems a few years ago & relieved the symptoms by moving the cleats 12mm back. Would you say as a general assessment the saddle should be moved forward by around the corresponding amount. This i didn't do but did lower the saddle by about 10mm. Had lower backpain for years until I changed my cranks from 165 - 150/155. Back pain disappeared over night after doing this. Just wondering if I could still use my 165 cranks with the saddle more forward. I did have an accident 5 years ago which did cause lower backpain(fractured pelvis), but I'm pain free at mo. With the balance test my lower back always feels better with more weight on my hands, actually the balance test is easier to do with more weight on the hands. My legs are so short that when I'm standing astride my 19.5 inch frames I'm basically nearly sat on the top tube with about 5mm clearance. Sitting on the saddle, now that I'm using short cranks both feet tip toes are 20mm from ground. I probably need a smaller frame using 650c wheels , but can't afford to run 650c tyres & the range is ltd. Always trying to learn more even after nearly 50 years of cycling & around 250,000 miles of riding. Keep up the good work.
No, you effectively shortened your leg, so if anything lower the saddle. IMHO, the saddle s/b as far back as safely possible. It lets you start your power stroke sooner, uses more thigh muscle and engages your core more. Don't forget to take measurements before you start, be diligent with every move, only more 1 thing at a time to keep track of whats going on.
Your correct it did shorten my legs but cured the foot problem. I tried lowering the saddle by 10mm, this only transferred the pain from my lower back to my knees. Moving the saddle up by half of the amount which I had lowered it made both my back & knees ache, but both to a lesser degree. Then a few years later read an article on crank length with regard to inside leg measurement (711mm(28") which worked out that I should be using 155mm cranks. So got a pair of old 150mm cranks from ebay, once fitted no more knee pain. I did raise the saddle by 10mm at the same time. I Still get slight back pain on longer hilly rides after about 100miles which I can dial out by moving the saddle forward 10mm. Only trouble with doing that it puts too much load on my arms & shoulders, so I don't. Raising the saddle by 5mm or moving it aft by the same amount brings on the back pain about 20 miles earlier. Lowering the saddle by 10mm brings on slight knee pain & loss in power according to my garmin.
If you go through the trouble of shaving your legs. Shouldn't you shave your arms too? Or has it become a style more so than a aerodynamic aid?
So if I slide forwards from the saddle by lifting my hands up, should I move the saddle fore or aft?
Thanks a lot, cool channel!
+Artem Poznyak if your hips slide forward when you do the test, I would first try the saddle back slightly and see how the test is affected -- keep in mind since this is a test that's dependent on a lot of parts of our fit that you may need to shorten your stem or otherwise change the reach. We don't want to increase the reach of the bike too much. When you have the right reach and the right setback the test will get a lot more stable and you won't slip forward
1st............ Is your saddle pointed nose down..........? I'll bet it is. Get rid of that. This nose down insanity is just that, insane.
Go from there. Hopefully you are not crammed (positioned) forward, another au current notion that is, that's right..........., insane.
no, actulally it's pointing a bit up because of sag, so, when I sit, it's straight leveled to the ground
a very good explanation!, thank u!
Didn’t even show center measuring point for saddle. Where do the numbers line up to post clamp? Center? Forward? Back?? Is it 45 straight line in line with post or center of clamp and vertical center? Not one video yet out of a dozen has not pointed that out.
How does that work in the mountain bikes where the sitting position is very different. I've been riding on my old-fashioned (relatively long and low stem) XC mountainbike with no saddle discomfort at all but I struggle a lot finding the position on my trail bike, where you sit pretty much upright.
Sitting up is the problem. You can't transfer your weight to the pedals sitting up. It creates a high center of balance. A long stem keeps the front down when climbing. Un weight your hands, where does the weight go? The saddle or the pedals..
If I'm sliding forward, why would I move the saddle back? I'd check saddle tilt, then move it forward until I hit the sweet spot.
Devery Andrews I understand that idea -- but that assumes that your body is prioritizing your reach over which part of the saddle is the most comfortable / best suited for your pelvic position. Most of the time this won't be the case. Plus with moving the saddle forward there are diminishing returns because as you go forward you exert less posterior force on the pelvis and increase the likelihood that it's going to slip forward.
You're absolutely correct to consider the tilt of the saddle...something I'll go into more in the next video on this topic -- I didn't want to muddy the waters and make the video 5 minutes longer...
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense as up to something like 8-10cm of shortened reach (assuming that we're looking to find the saddle position first without fiddling too much with the bars) can be accomplished artificially just by just shifting the hands back onto the road bars instead of the hoods and then even further by just asking the rider use their fingertips to stabilize themselves on the bars to conduct the test while on a trainer. Figure out reach after you figure out the saddle position.
Once the rider's hands are off the bars and the rider is beginning to sit up per the test reach doesn't play a role anymore so the rider sliding forward indicates that the rider's leverage on the pedals and balance drag their pelvis forward toward a neutral balance position and you want to exacerbate that by moving the rider further back? Does seem quite strange logic.
+OhAiShare there's a difference between bar position and reach especially when your unclear on your saddle fore aft position. You can have the wrong bar position, the wrong fore aft but have the correct reach. By knowing what's close to your optimal reach you can eliminate it as a reason for slipping forward or being unstable on the saddle.
If you have close to the right reach and you fail the test and need to move the saddle back, then moving the bars back to maintain the reach is what I discussed in the video.
And, yes, you can just shift your hands back on the bars or go on to your fingertips to see where you pass the test but this won't help you find your best hip position on the bike...it'll help you find your best bar position based on your potentially compromised hip/saddle fore aft position.
Again, having perfect reach is nearly irrelevant for this test as how simple it is to move your hand position that handful of cm that you may be moving the saddle on the rails as the rider doesn't need to stabilize themselves over long periods or on a dynamic bike. It's on a bike fixed to a trainer so moving the hands or even using fingertips to simulate a reach adjustment is perfectly fine before physically moving the bars. A rider can change hand position at will to compensate for the range of adjustment of the saddle rails. Hence why for this sitting up test trying to make the bar position or reach a big factor is ultimately silly for this specific balance test, as that's all this is.
As for hip impingement that's a different issue compared to balance point and should be considered as much. Balance is still the balance point and where you should set your saddle by, if one's hips allow it. If not adjust for the best compromise between the two but to say this sit up test is an indicator of hip impingement is a very poor viewpoint from a professional bike fitter as this sit up test is not an indicator of ideal hip angles.
The basic idea here, I think, is this: If you stand normally and then bend about 45 degrees forward at the hip joints with your arms out in front of you, your rear end will move rearward to maintain balance. This is essentially the position you're trying to duplicate with the fore/aft adjustment. If the seat is too far forward, it puts your center of gravity too far forward and your arms will have to work harder to prevent you from sliding forward in the seat. I did the same thing as you at first, but found that moving the seat rearward worked much better for me.
Hi John! Could you get into this subject for more agressive riders such as track riders that most of the time ride their saddles forward on the limits of UCI rules. As well as for Time Trial riders who keep sliding forward during the event. I know that competitive cycling, mainly short events, are more directed into pain threshold than an actual confortable fit, but once I learned that the more confortable we are, the more we produce on the bike. So if you could make a video regarding this aspect of cycling, I'd appreciate!
Maybe I misunderstood, but surely the balance method would almost always fail for someone in the TT position.
Agreed, in an aggressive position these metrics are very different.
sudden find...best info ever, thanks!
I'm pretty sure this has been addressed but I'd like to ask anyway. When it comes to the balance test, how does the power you're putting out effect balance? Does using oval chainrings effect how you set fore aft?
I think you need to take your typical riding into account. Not sure if ovals have an effect, just use your bike if possible.
Looks like the seat angle is tilted slightly to the back from level which may put pressure undue pressure on the prostate zone. Tilted too far forward can put pressure on the lower back over time.
If you are slipping forward on your seat, the cause more than likely is bad spinal flexibilty. In that, you are having to tilt your pelvis too much to reach the handlebars. Being able to bend your mid back(thoracic spine) more will allow your pelvis ro stay more vertical at the same time of extending your reach. If you are in (or attempting) an aero position and your back is straight, you are doing it wrong. Look at every pro rider, they have amazing back flexibility and able to get in a deep aero position but note how their pelvis are still very upright. Took me a long time to figure out why ny hands were always going numb and I could never seem to find that perfect seat position.. it wasnt the bike, it was me that needed work.
Hello ,I need a consultant to determine which suitable size of bike to fit well on my height 184cm.
So the bike is Pinarello fp3 ETT 58 / vertical 60.
Please feedback
Hi John, I called a bike fitter in my area and asked for a fitting on my mountain bike. I told him I was getting numb on my right side in my genital area. I wanted to try different saddles. Ive gone through a lot of your videos and have tried to get the fit as close as possible with the camera and software you talked about. They told me you cant do a fitting on a mountain bike and I should just buy different saddles until I find one I like. I don't have an extra thousand dollars to try all the shapes. What should I do to relive this numbness? Or is it going to be explained in this upcoming series? Thanks in advance!
I guess I'm not a real bike rider then.
I suppose I'm not either... ;-)
how do you generate the 3d skeleton view?
Seems that test would always fail for a track, tt, tri bike regardless. And for mtb even with the long reach steep seat tube common for trail bikes, it would always succeed. Is this rule only for typical recreational roadies with a short reach and high stack height?
Great video, watched a few one of yours and this is the best. Thank you! Will try this!
I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong, or there's something I'm not thinking about. I'm pretty sure I would fail the balance test, but I don't understand why this is a bad a situation for me. As I've gotten more serious about cycling and racing, I've gotten into a lower and longer position. At this point, I ride in the drops almost always unless I'm eating/drinking or climbing a big hill. I even train in the drops on my indoor trainer so that I stay trained to an aggressive position year round. Riding in a more upright position almost feels weird to me unless I'm just poking along and chatting with folks on a group ride. I don't experience discomfort in this aggressive position anymore--not even on all-day outings. I used to a little when I was less trained, but now not any more. And since I'm not fighting the air as much, I can go faster for longer distances with less fatigue in my legs.
So, the main reason I'm putting my saddle further forward is that I'm having trouble getting my hip angle opened up as much as I want. If I push my saddle back, it feels as if I'm in a deep squat with my knees almost knocking my chest when I ride in the drops. So then I unconsciously move my hips forward and ride on the rivet, which isn't comfortable and puts my saddle effectively too low, which kills my power. So rather than fight my body over where my hips seem to want to be, I just move my saddle forward and upward. I also bought a Specialized Power saddle, which is flatter in cross-section and has a sort of delta-like shape to it that brings the effective support to the sit-bones further forward while taking pressure off the front-most soft-tissues, which was previously causing numbness and aching.
So, I'm curious to know, even though I am supporting a significant percent of my upper body weight with my arms and wrists, if this isn't causing me any fatigue or discomfort, do I still need to be concerned? Would I get more power to the cranks if I were to make an adjustment somehow that would allow me to not fall forward?
Uh oh. I haven't even been thinking of that. At the amateur level, does anyone really care if my bike geometry is a tiny bit outside of UCI regulations here or there? I actually haven't heard of anyone running into problems with "small-potatoes" stuff like that other than at the pro level.
It's all a matter of priorities. If you really care about that low aero position or if you prioritize bike handling and less shoulder/arm (admittedly you said it's a non issue) more. As when you move the saddle forward you change the rider and bike COG usually compromising the handling slightly because more weight is now on the front wheel. Taking into account you can't quite as easily move the weight around, because you're admittedly in an unbalanced position, hurts what the rider can do near the limits of traction because you're essentially falling forward all the time. The additional weight on the shoulders and arms is there too but seems you've developed the strength to cope with it. If you're really up against the UCI limit on a road bike then very much would consider giving up a touch of aero and move further back as the UCI limit is pretty dang far forward even for a fully slammed pro using 140+mm stems on bikes one to two sizes too small.
Didn't the UCI just change the rule on set back for 2017 and further? Also what size crank arms do you use? You may benefit from having slightly shorter arms that won't drive your knees into your chest as much.
Erik, your saddle is too low or your cranks are too long. Move your cleats all the way towards the heal, raise the seat and try again. Most of your weight should be applied to the pedals, you should be light on your saddle and hands. Using all that energy holding yourself up is wasted endurance energy. Next time you ride.. in the drops unweight your hands and see where the weight goes, hopefully to the pedals.
this is because your core muscle is strong enough to support and compensate a bad position