This was a great summary of all current resources of the topic currently on internet, I went down the rabbit hole a couple of years ago trying to find the optimal position, I think setback is the most underrated Bike fit element of all the system, people focus too much on saddle height however I found it has the biggest window of range, u can be 1 cm off your position but still be fine, but setback, not so much, I have long legs compared to my torso and long femurs, something that is not considered that often is the relation between the femur and tibia, if your legs have longer femurs in proportion to your tibia, u would need a lot of setback, not moving forward and increasing saddle height as I mistakenly did. The balance test for me didn't work, I’m 62 kg and 178 cm tall, I’m very light in the upper part of my body, I found I could pass the test everywhere on the rail, also paying too much attention to the knee pain for dictating your setback position is not very accurate, I rode for 6 years with a 3 cm setback seat post, and the saddle all the way back, any minimal mm movement to the front would cause my knee to hurt however during all that time I still was really far back of my optimal position, it was just my body wasn't used at all of putting any pressure when the saddle setback was in a more forward position. I found thought trial and error that, riding at zone 2 with an experimental position will maybe give you short term overview of the success of your position, but your body will adapt to it, so you need to test it at a threshold intensity pace and a minimum of 14 mins of it, not short 3 minutes test, because if u do only Z2 u can be 2 cm too far forward but suddenly your knee pain would disappear, you may also no longer feel pain in the shoulders and all of that, so u might think well now I have my optimal position. In my case I could ride for Z2 5 hours no issue, but 7+ hours rides would give me effects of the wrong position, but who would ride that much to find it right?, you can be too far forward and not feeling a super engaged quads because they are simply too weak in that position, I found I was really too far forward, when I finally decided to do high intensity work, I just rode Z2 for 2 years expecting my body to adapt to a more forward position, but when I finally did a FTP test, the 20 minute test, with the position all wrong I pushed really good numbers for the first 4 minutes then slowly I died :), even having 2 years of this position with no pain at all, I even bought a longer stem to accommodate the more forward position, I drooped about 40 watts from start to end of the test and it wasn't because I couldn’t pace it, I even aimed for 30 watts less than my all time PB, it was because at the last part it just feels like I couldn’t push down at all, I could only spin, but the HR was through the roof, I moved the saddle 1.5 cm back and the problem is now solved. so even in my case the online sources suggest I would need a really frontal position because my long legs, reality is that everybody is simply too different.
Probably you have a weak VMO, Core, and glute. If you strenghtening this mouscle group, you can set your saddle more forward, and activate the big Glute muscle. (more power) If you just spining, then almost always, you overused the hammstring. I know, cuz i have the same situation, longer legs than average riders. So i was building the VMO really hard, and now not have knee pain, when my saddle set forward.
My friend,we are indeed different in proportions.We may have long legs like each other,but different femur lengths,like you said.My insight is that with a longer cockpit,you activate your upper limbs to oppose the pedalling forces ,whereas with a forward position,its only your leg strenght and gravity against the gear load.
Sometimes the bike fit is not the only issue. Often you need to do some conditioning work off the bike. I see a lot of cyclists with knee pain and it is surprising just how weak they are with functional testing - Step up/ down, single leg bridge, resisted abduction. Then I put them on a strength/ reconditioning program.
Wow incredibly informative video. Putting all the ‘opinions’ in one video , is priceless. Honestly I probably didn’t understand more than 50% and yet I’m smart enough to save/bookmark this video. Perfect timing just got a new bike and I’m struggling with saddle adjustments . Thanks
Great, great video. Thank you! This helped reconcile the contradictory information I read about front vs back positions and power/muscle recruitment. An ideal position is clearly a compromise of competing factors. Moreover, it is impacted by rider strength, weight, and flexibility-all moving targets on and off-season. Understanding these issues and self-knowledge are essential if you attempt to fiddle with these settings. Periodic fittings are likely money well spent!
KOPs method have always worked with my legs with proper saddle height, but I always test first if i am able to pedal with good power and comfort and readjust accordingly. i usually adjust the saddle so that the thread of the plumb bob is very slightly in front of the pedal spindle. If put it too forward, i get knee pain after a ride. If i put it too far back, i lack power.
This is great. I think you should do a video on cleat position, specifically fore-aft. Very few people highlight the issues that MAY occur when the cleat is too far back. Personally, my knee and arch pain went away when I moved the cleat forwards (but still behind the first head metatarsal head).
Thanks for your feedback. Cleat position is on my radar for sure. Many people would experience symptom improvement from a rearward cleat positioning so it is interesting you have done the opposite to feel more comfortable.
@@podiumphysio657 Yes, I agree that most people would benefit from a rearward cleat. I think in my case I am a toe pointer and having the cleat rearward does not feel right. I speak Japanese and some Japanese bike fitters highlight that a cleat position that is too forward OR rearward can be detrimental. For instance, see this: (auto translation is OK, so you should get the idea): ua-cam.com/video/jOTAdTmfke4/v-deo.htmlsi=9AG6o4AMaVqksz_q Here is another video, where the cleat position was too far back (auto translation is not good, hahaha): ua-cam.com/video/P6ZpMPWnrqo/v-deo.htmlsi=ElJ4DuqABQOZZJja&t=544
Awesome video! Super important set up factor and very difficult especially for tall riders to get right. As with the crank length discussion (manufacturers do not product sufficient selection of longer crank options for tall, or shorter cranks for short riders), modern bikes, especially those using proprietary 20-25mm setback posts, have too steep seat angles for long legged riders to get far back enough to "pass" the balance test. Keep this in mind if you are tall (above 6'2") as you may need to look harder for a slacker setback frame and / or setback post such as FSA SB32 which only work with frames designed for 27.2mm diameter posts.
Very interesting, thanks. I've been riding since the early 1980's, what I notice today is a lot of amateur level road cyclists with toes pointing down at the bottom of the pedal stroke. To me it looks like reaching for the bottom power spot. Old school was a flat foot at bottom of pedal stroke. Today at 71, as a touring cyclist, I ride flat pedals with stiff trail running shoes. I've crossed the U.S. twice since retiring with trail runners and flat pedals. Happy trails!
Kops, 70s 80s, 90s methodology. Today..not too relevant. I don't race anymore but do cover plenty of miles. What helped me is getting the cleats quite back. I cover the odd 100 miles jolly still pacey and have no worries. After positioning the saddle central I've now moved it forwards around 10mm mainly due to the cleats. Removed the power saddle and reverted back to the Romin. Power saddle made me gravitate forwards and loaded up the front. Working towards if it looks right and feels right there's a chance of being reasonably right. No aches or pains anywhere.
Hey Franz. Thanks for your feedback! Yes I took this photo on July 8, 2017 after my wife and I rode to the top of the Stelvio as part of a group tour. One of the best days out on my bike!
Great to see you doing ok. I have my saddle position perfect these days. The only issue is I should have got a 10mm longer stem on my integrated bars. I get numb hands from not being able to stretch out enough. It is perfect on my indoor bike.
I'm struggling to find the info about how many Gs can be exerted by a rider's weight on the saddle in dynamic conditions. Can it reach 2G? Less, more, how much? I need this to find the appropriate spring for the damping seat.
in pothole peak g force instantanouesly be higher, they sell a new spring for seats looks like a sideways "U"post is on 1 end , seat on other end so bends springy! variable tension..buy a gel pad, they work great
Yeah it is a completely different set up process. Generally as you will be in aero bars on your elbows, the balance test wont apply. You will have much more weight on your front end, but it is spread across a greater surface area of the arms.
Nice job putting all this together. I tend to get my seat height set and tilt with a rough idea of setback and start moving it by a 1mm at a time. I do get knee pain, weight on the hands, thigh rubbing (depending on saddle) when it's too far forward. Too far back and lower back discomfort, heavy hamstring involvement etc. There's a sweetspot for me. Basically 0.5-1.5mm back from where I start feeling weight more weight on the hands is about right. I do think however with shorter cranks that knee pain when moving forward probably wouldn't occur.
Thanks. Sounds like you are a "micro-adjuster". Shorter cranks solve a heap of bike fit and performance issues. In 5 years everyone will be on 170mm or shorter...
@@podiumphysio657definitely a micro-adjuster. Lol. I have some spine and knee issues. I don't compensate well in a suboptimal position like I did in my 20's. And yeah I'm in the process of finding a new saddle. I'm switching out to 165's after I do.
Nice "literature review"! I actually have read almost all the papers you mentioned and the videos, however still yet to find a clear conclusion just like you said. However I want to add the hamstring flexibility is also a huge factor which I had missed before too. The functional/effective hamstring flexibility/range -- the max KNEE angle you can get when you hinge your body down at the hips, trying to touch the ground with spine not curving so much, vary hugely across different people. And that can have huge influence about the setback you can do. I can only get about 135 degree, however every average yoga girl in the yoga class I just attended could operate at nearly 180 degree, which means a straight leg. The instructor thought I was just lazy only to get shocked that's what all I have. However I have exceptional hip flexibility with a natural posture of an anterior tilted pelvis. I can reach floor quite easy only from that pelvis tilt, even though my hamstring was horrible. I have no problem riding with ~15 cm drops. So the ability to ride low doesn't mean you have "good flexibility". What's that in relate to the setback? Just think this, we all agree that the lower leg should be functionally vertical during the downstroke, let's freeze that vertical lower leg, then you can rotate your femur around the knee, to get a series of applicable positions. You'll see how forward and high you can go is dictated from that MAX knee angle your body can take during the bend down test. For those 180 degree girls, it will come to other factors, but for the 135 degree folks like me, this is the limiting factor. Sure we can all get straight legs once you stand up, but if you want to ride low bending down, that angle will become a determining factor for your setback. That's a revelation moment for me. Because before this I have looked at so many things, checked all the boxes including balance test etc (I have strong core, I can pass almost everywhere), but never really understand why I can't comfortably ride at where I "should be". I'm with the school of "high and forward" just like the end of this video because that's what science says and what you can feel. However it just doesn't make sense why that seemingly correct position doesn't feel correct but that "wrong" position feels like home. Until that revelation moment when I saw "how the hell could every girl in this room do that?????". I'm only about 1/3 flexible in this part. And everything started to make sense. I would add this to the already long checklist. And I remember actually there are quite a few literatures about hamstring flexibility and saddle height/fore-aft, however before that revelation moment I just ignored them because I didn't really understand hamstring flexibility and just because I can ride a low position I thought I must have at least OK hamstring, which turns out to be my biggest overlook over this issue.
I'm the opposite. Excellent hamstring flexibility and very stiff hips due to osteoarthritis. But yes hamstring tightness definitely plays a role in the bike fit process
Great work from Podium Fysio. One recommodation or what seems to be overlooked in the summary at the end is the handlebar reach. It is mentioned in the self analysis but needs Some star attention in my opinion and experience. One should feel and experience again what happens with the weight distribution and feeling of reach, the saddle and the pressure distribution when the stem length (and height) is altered just like Steve says. So when you are doing this at home without changing stemlenght / position you are not doing the full job. A good fitter Will have an adjustable bikefit stem with which you can alter te stem lenght and angle in seconds. I’m sure Podium has one. Than the circle is round and you Can experience and find out what works best for you. As Podium says: take knowledge and understanding of your own position. Test and find out within your fit window. Never go to a fitter who claims to ‘ put you on your bike” (in 90 minutes?). It is a co production of rider and fitter. Happy riding.
Hi Hans. It is hard to know where to draw the boundary line with these videos. I'm looking at individual elements of bike fit, but as we all know they are inter-related.
@ amen! Keep UP the good work. I like the style which is not judging about fellow bikeriders like Some other ‘youtubers’ seem te make (mis)use of in favour of their own business and ego. I won’t mention name(s) ;-)
always set as far forward as it goes. the Uci limits the dimensions of bike frames witch set the seat tube angle. without these rules most frames would have a steeper seat tube putting the rider more directly of the bottom bracket. this is why pros and tt rider ride on the tip of their saddles when putting out power. slam it forward and forget out it. Obrea had it all figured out
I have experienced that the saddle tilt of perhaps only one or two degrees has a much larger impact and can ruin all the fitting achievements done before. I almost properly adjusted my too large frame road endurance bike with extreme short stem and found a pretty balanced saddle position, balanced in terms of weight and quads-hams-recruitment. But when I went down to an aero position I realized that I needed a bit more saddle tilt to remain in that position for more than few minutes. But with the right tilt for aero position everything went out of balance and even the reach was too short...😢😢 I will try a longer stem with a few little less saddle tilt, hopefully it's gonna be alright. The saddle tilts the pelvis, so your upper body does also tilt more forward in the upright position. It almost seems to me I need a different fit for hoods and drops.
ok I feel like a muppet for measuring the setback... I've been using a plumb line and measuring that all the way back to the mid 90s... the wall method simplifies things so nicely haha...
Interesting info... I am moving to a new place this week, and one of my plans for 2025 is more bike work... I have two different indoor bikes and am going to make the effort to set them up a bit better... One (the gym bike) is like a fixie or track bike, is for cardio, and the other one is what I use for HIIT... a conventional bike on a trainer... so I can speed up in different gears and when I cannot hold the high cadence any longer, I can stop pedalling and not break my ankles and knees. Any research on the idea of quad-biased setup for HIIT work, as bigger muscles that can use more energy...?
Hi David. I havent looked into HIIT specifically, but from this video it would make sense to have a more forward saddle position, and in terms of more targeting quads, they are larger phasic muscles so you would need to working specifically at higher intensities (watts)
@@podiumphysio657 it frustrates me how complicated bike-fitting is, and even more so how I spent a fortune on it in the past only for it to not be any more comfortable.
@@syrus3k Bike fitting has the potential to be extremely complex. Sometimes the result you expect from a change made to the bike setup is completely different to what was expected, and sometimes something looks better to the fitter but doesnt feel better to the rider
Start at back and work forward, record feelling, then forward too back, record. Note saddle height. Raise saddle 3mm then repeat fore/aft...record... saddle adjustment are a constant... lifes simple that way... A person will find 3 or 4 settings that will work. Keep a record of the measurements... play with 1 and 2mm micro adjustments in the discovered riding positions. The micro tune will put you in the sweet zone... 😂
When the biker is on a wheel off trainer is it actually level the same as it would be on the road ? . . . I've tried to setting up on a trainer and acheived PBs on Zwift, then when I go out on the road it feels horrible ! . . . What are your thoughts ??
To answer your question you need to measure from the ground to the rear axel and compare the same measurement of the front axel. The difference will tell you how much your bike is leaning down or up. That said there are many difference between indoor and outdoor riding - a topic for another video!
As a follow up I measured the difference. I put a strip of masking tape on the chainstay just behind the rear axle and marked a cross on it. Then with the wheels on I measured from the centre of the cross to the ground and the again when the bike was on the trainer. I found the difference to be 13 mm lower on the trainer. This was with 700x40 gravel tyres, I'll check it again with road tyres when I get a chance 👍
@@fasdiablo There is usually a difference, which is why trainers are often sold with a front tyre riser, and there are also available as aftermarket items
@@tongotongo3143 It's simply the fastest position you can get your body into in order to have the lowest cDA on the smallest frame possible (like a TT bike)...with 155-165 cranks. A padded wide nose saddle like a stealth is best angled 10% down in order to rotate the hips forward and provide an extra push point. You also need a seatpost that's 76 degrees +. This is how you save watts and can make a cheap bike faster than any expensive one. Yes, I am extremely knowledgeable on this. Nothing to prove.
@@Michael-s5i5j not at all. I use 155-165 cranks. Very comfortable and have been doing this for 8 years. You also have direct power over the axle similar to standing up. Tilting the saddle at 10 degrees with the seat post high and short cranks gives all the room you need and the natural rotation of hips. One bike I use has 155 cranks and is 538 reach, 498 stack with a -20 custom titanium 170 stem. It is more aero than any tour bike by way of position no different to a TT bike, in fact your head is almost over the tire. It is within the rules. Extremely comfortable.
This was a great summary of all current resources of the topic currently on internet, I went down the rabbit hole a couple of years ago trying to find the optimal position, I think setback is the most underrated Bike fit element of all the system, people focus too much on saddle height however I found it has the biggest window of range, u can be 1 cm off your position but still be fine, but setback, not so much, I have long legs compared to my torso and long femurs, something that is not considered that often is the relation between the femur and tibia, if your legs have longer femurs in proportion to your tibia, u would need a lot of setback, not moving forward and increasing saddle height as I mistakenly did.
The balance test for me didn't work, I’m 62 kg and 178 cm tall, I’m very light in the upper part of my body, I found I could pass the test everywhere on the rail, also paying too much attention to the knee pain for dictating your setback position is not very accurate, I rode for 6 years with a 3 cm setback seat post, and the saddle all the way back, any minimal mm movement to the front would cause my knee to hurt however during all that time I still was really far back of my optimal position, it was just my body wasn't used at all of putting any pressure when the saddle setback was in a more forward position.
I found thought trial and error that, riding at zone 2 with an experimental position will maybe give you short term overview of the success of your position, but your body will adapt to it, so you need to test it at a threshold intensity pace and a minimum of 14 mins of it, not short 3 minutes test, because if u do only Z2 u can be 2 cm too far forward but suddenly your knee pain would disappear, you may also no longer feel pain in the shoulders and all of that, so u might think well now I have my optimal position.
In my case I could ride for Z2 5 hours no issue, but 7+ hours rides would give me effects of the wrong position, but who would ride that much to find it right?, you can be too far forward and not feeling a super engaged quads because they are simply too weak in that position, I found I was really too far forward, when I finally decided to do high intensity work, I just rode Z2 for 2 years expecting my body to adapt to a more forward position, but when I finally did a FTP test, the 20 minute test, with the position all wrong I pushed really good numbers for the first 4 minutes then slowly I died :), even having 2 years of this position with no pain at all, I even bought a longer stem to accommodate the more forward position, I drooped about 40 watts from start to end of the test and it wasn't because I couldn’t pace it, I even aimed for 30 watts less than my all time PB, it was because at the last part it just feels like I couldn’t push down at all, I could only spin, but the HR was through the roof, I moved the saddle 1.5 cm back and the problem is now solved. so even in my case the online sources suggest I would need a really frontal position because my long legs, reality is that everybody is simply too different.
Probably you have a weak VMO, Core, and glute. If you strenghtening this mouscle group, you can set your saddle more forward, and activate the big Glute muscle. (more power)
If you just spining, then almost always, you overused the hammstring.
I know, cuz i have the same situation, longer legs than average riders. So i was building the VMO really hard, and now not have knee pain, when my saddle set forward.
My friend,we are indeed different in proportions.We may have long legs like each other,but different femur lengths,like you said.My insight is that with a longer cockpit,you activate your upper limbs to oppose the pedalling forces ,whereas with a forward position,its only your leg strenght and gravity against the gear load.
Sometimes the bike fit is not the only issue. Often you need to do some conditioning work off the bike. I see a lot of cyclists with knee pain and it is surprising just how weak they are with functional testing - Step up/ down, single leg bridge, resisted abduction. Then I put them on a strength/ reconditioning program.
Excellent video combining all that confusing and often contradictory information together! You've got a new subscriber!
Thanks for your support!
Wow incredibly informative video. Putting all the ‘opinions’ in one video , is priceless. Honestly I probably didn’t understand more than 50% and yet I’m smart enough to save/bookmark this video. Perfect timing just got a new bike and I’m struggling with saddle adjustments . Thanks
Thanks for your positive feedback. Enjoy your new bike and I hope these videos help you set it up optimally!
🎉 amazing video. Really really good. Your bikefit videos are the best so far on UA-cam. Thank you so much!
Thanks for your kind words!
Great video! Thanks for sharing a path forward in trying to clarify a lot of contradictory information.
Thanks Barry. Glad you found it helpful
Best content ever!
Thanks - appreciate your comments!
Great, great video. Thank you! This helped reconcile the contradictory information I read about front vs back positions and power/muscle recruitment.
An ideal position is clearly a compromise of competing factors. Moreover, it is impacted by rider strength, weight, and flexibility-all moving targets on and off-season.
Understanding these issues and self-knowledge are essential if you attempt to fiddle with these settings. Periodic fittings are likely money well spent!
Thanks Ken - Yes there is a lot to consider and it definitely changes over time because of many variables
KOPs method have always worked with my legs with proper saddle height, but I always test first if i am able to pedal with good power and comfort and readjust accordingly.
i usually adjust the saddle so that the thread of the plumb bob is very slightly in front of the pedal spindle.
If put it too forward, i get knee pain after a ride. If i put it too far back, i lack power.
I'm sure that KOPS will work adequately for some people, but there is much more depth to the subject.
Excellent video
Thanks for your support Bob!
A very well done video. So much information to think about thank you for sharing with us❤
Thanks Keith. 4 weeks of work to create 28 minutes of content!
Thanks!
Ahh thanks so much. You are very kind!
Great analysis
Thanks for your support!
This is great. I think you should do a video on cleat position, specifically fore-aft. Very few people highlight the issues that MAY occur when the cleat is too far back. Personally, my knee and arch pain went away when I moved the cleat forwards (but still behind the first head metatarsal head).
Thanks for your feedback. Cleat position is on my radar for sure. Many people would experience symptom improvement from a rearward cleat positioning so it is interesting you have done the opposite to feel more comfortable.
@@podiumphysio657 Yes, I agree that most people would benefit from a rearward cleat. I think in my case I am a toe pointer and having the cleat rearward does not feel right. I speak Japanese and some Japanese bike fitters highlight that a cleat position that is too forward OR rearward can be detrimental. For instance, see this: (auto translation is OK, so you should get the idea): ua-cam.com/video/jOTAdTmfke4/v-deo.htmlsi=9AG6o4AMaVqksz_q
Here is another video, where the cleat position was too far back (auto translation is not good, hahaha): ua-cam.com/video/P6ZpMPWnrqo/v-deo.htmlsi=ElJ4DuqABQOZZJja&t=544
@@ShadowzKiller I watched the video but it probably lost a bit in the translation. But yes I agree that any "extreme" position can lead to issues
Awesome video! Super important set up factor and very difficult especially for tall riders to get right. As with the crank length discussion (manufacturers do not product sufficient selection of longer crank options for tall, or shorter cranks for short riders), modern bikes, especially those using proprietary 20-25mm setback posts, have too steep seat angles for long legged riders to get far back enough to "pass" the balance test. Keep this in mind if you are tall (above 6'2") as you may need to look harder for a slacker setback frame and / or setback post such as FSA SB32 which only work with frames designed for 27.2mm diameter posts.
Cheers Steve!
That was easy to watch! Well explained and calmly delivered information. Gotta sub from me👍
Thanks Max. Appreciate your support!
Very interesting, thanks. I've been riding since the early 1980's, what I notice today is a lot of amateur level road cyclists with toes pointing down at the bottom of the pedal stroke. To me it looks like reaching for the bottom power spot. Old school was a flat foot at bottom of pedal stroke. Today at 71, as a touring cyclist, I ride flat pedals with stiff trail running shoes. I've crossed the U.S. twice since retiring with trail runners and flat pedals. Happy trails!
Thanks Mike. Enjoy your riding!
Outstanding! Thank You!
You are welcome!
Kops, 70s 80s, 90s methodology. Today..not too relevant. I don't race anymore but do cover plenty of miles. What helped me is getting the cleats quite back. I cover the odd 100 miles jolly still pacey and have no worries. After positioning the saddle central I've now moved it forwards around 10mm mainly due to the cleats. Removed the power saddle and reverted back to the Romin. Power saddle made me gravitate forwards and loaded up the front. Working towards if it looks right and feels right there's a chance of being reasonably right. No aches or pains anywhere.
Glad you found a solution that works for you. Definitely need to examine cleat placement for a future video.
Excellent video! Love your videos!
Btw, i have this image on my wall :D
Hey Franz. Thanks for your feedback! Yes I took this photo on July 8, 2017 after my wife and I rode to the top of the Stelvio as part of a group tour. One of the best days out on my bike!
Great to see you doing ok. I have my saddle position perfect these days. The only issue is I should have got a 10mm longer stem on my integrated bars. I get numb hands from not being able to stretch out enough. It is perfect on my indoor bike.
Cheers - making a good recovery from my THR 6 weeks ago.
Bike fitters HATE integrated bars. H.A.T.E.
I think the crank length also influences many of the factors mentioned here.
Yes absolutely. Great topic for another video actually...
I'm struggling to find the info about how many Gs can be exerted by a rider's weight on the saddle in dynamic conditions. Can it reach 2G? Less, more, how much? I need this to find the appropriate spring for the damping seat.
Sorry I cant help you with that info. It is an unusual thing to ask
in pothole peak g force instantanouesly be higher, they sell a new spring for seats looks like a sideways "U"post is on 1 end , seat on other end so bends springy! variable tension..buy a gel pad, they work great
Excellent video. Given the TT/tri bike mentions, how would you approach the balance test then?
Yeah it is a completely different set up process. Generally as you will be in aero bars on your elbows, the balance test wont apply. You will have much more weight on your front end, but it is spread across a greater surface area of the arms.
Nice job putting all this together. I tend to get my seat height set and tilt with a rough idea of setback and start moving it by a 1mm at a time. I do get knee pain, weight on the hands, thigh rubbing (depending on saddle) when it's too far forward. Too far back and lower back discomfort, heavy hamstring involvement etc. There's a sweetspot for me. Basically 0.5-1.5mm back from where I start feeling weight more weight on the hands is about right. I do think however with shorter cranks that knee pain when moving forward probably wouldn't occur.
Thanks. Sounds like you are a "micro-adjuster".
Shorter cranks solve a heap of bike fit and performance issues. In 5 years everyone will be on 170mm or shorter...
@@podiumphysio657definitely a micro-adjuster. Lol. I have some spine and knee issues. I don't compensate well in a suboptimal position like I did in my 20's. And yeah I'm in the process of finding a new saddle. I'm switching out to 165's after I do.
Nice "literature review"! I actually have read almost all the papers you mentioned and the videos, however still yet to find a clear conclusion just like you said. However I want to add the hamstring flexibility is also a huge factor which I had missed before too. The functional/effective hamstring flexibility/range -- the max KNEE angle you can get when you hinge your body down at the hips, trying to touch the ground with spine not curving so much, vary hugely across different people. And that can have huge influence about the setback you can do. I can only get about 135 degree, however every average yoga girl in the yoga class I just attended could operate at nearly 180 degree, which means a straight leg. The instructor thought I was just lazy only to get shocked that's what all I have. However I have exceptional hip flexibility with a natural posture of an anterior tilted pelvis. I can reach floor quite easy only from that pelvis tilt, even though my hamstring was horrible. I have no problem riding with ~15 cm drops. So the ability to ride low doesn't mean you have "good flexibility". What's that in relate to the setback? Just think this, we all agree that the lower leg should be functionally vertical during the downstroke, let's freeze that vertical lower leg, then you can rotate your femur around the knee, to get a series of applicable positions. You'll see how forward and high you can go is dictated from that MAX knee angle your body can take during the bend down test. For those 180 degree girls, it will come to other factors, but for the 135 degree folks like me, this is the limiting factor. Sure we can all get straight legs once you stand up, but if you want to ride low bending down, that angle will become a determining factor for your setback. That's a revelation moment for me. Because before this I have looked at so many things, checked all the boxes including balance test etc (I have strong core, I can pass almost everywhere), but never really understand why I can't comfortably ride at where I "should be". I'm with the school of "high and forward" just like the end of this video because that's what science says and what you can feel. However it just doesn't make sense why that seemingly correct position doesn't feel correct but that "wrong" position feels like home. Until that revelation moment when I saw "how the hell could every girl in this room do that?????". I'm only about 1/3 flexible in this part. And everything started to make sense. I would add this to the already long checklist. And I remember actually there are quite a few literatures about hamstring flexibility and saddle height/fore-aft, however before that revelation moment I just ignored them because I didn't really understand hamstring flexibility and just because I can ride a low position I thought I must have at least OK hamstring, which turns out to be my biggest overlook over this issue.
I'm the opposite. Excellent hamstring flexibility and very stiff hips due to osteoarthritis. But yes hamstring tightness definitely plays a role in the bike fit process
Great work from Podium Fysio. One recommodation or what seems to be overlooked in the summary at the end is the handlebar reach. It is mentioned in the self analysis but needs Some star attention in my opinion and experience. One should feel and experience again what happens with the weight distribution and feeling of reach, the saddle and the pressure distribution when the stem length (and height) is altered just like Steve says. So when you are doing this at home without changing stemlenght / position you are not doing the full job. A good fitter Will have an adjustable bikefit stem with which you can alter te stem lenght and angle in seconds. I’m sure Podium has one. Than the circle is round and you Can experience and find out what works best for you. As Podium says: take knowledge and understanding of your own position. Test and find out within your fit window. Never go to a fitter who claims to ‘ put you on your bike” (in 90 minutes?). It is a co production of rider and fitter. Happy riding.
Hi Hans. It is hard to know where to draw the boundary line with these videos. I'm looking at individual elements of bike fit, but as we all know they are inter-related.
@ amen! Keep UP the good work. I like the style which is not judging about fellow bikeriders like Some other ‘youtubers’ seem te make (mis)use of in favour of their own business and ego. I won’t mention name(s) ;-)
@@hansraven8378 LOL. There is no room for judgement in the world of physiotherapy. I try to keep an open mind in my bike fitting also.
always set as far forward as it goes. the Uci limits the dimensions of bike frames witch set the seat tube angle. without these rules most frames would have a steeper seat tube putting the rider more directly of the bottom bracket. this is why pros and tt rider ride on the tip of their saddles when putting out power. slam it forward and forget out it. Obrea had it all figured out
Many people seem to agree about wanting the saddle far forwards
I have experienced that the saddle tilt of perhaps only one or two degrees has a much larger impact and can ruin all the fitting achievements done before.
I almost properly adjusted my too large frame road endurance bike with extreme short stem and found a pretty balanced saddle position, balanced in terms of weight and quads-hams-recruitment.
But when I went down to an aero position I realized that I needed a bit more saddle tilt to remain in that position for more than few minutes.
But with the right tilt for aero position everything went out of balance and even the reach was too short...😢😢
I will try a longer stem with a few little less saddle tilt, hopefully it's gonna be alright.
The saddle tilts the pelvis, so your upper body does also tilt more forward in the upright position.
It almost seems to me I need a different fit for hoods and drops.
Bike fitting is like chaos theory. The flap of a butterfly wing in one place causes a tsunami in another...
@podiumphysio657 But the tilt issue is likely to be fixable with a pressure relief saddle which allowes upright and aero position.
ok I feel like a muppet for measuring the setback... I've been using a plumb line and measuring that all the way back to the mid 90s... the wall method simplifies things so nicely haha...
Yeah - it is a little simpler😉
Interesting info... I am moving to a new place this week, and one of my plans for 2025 is more bike work... I have two different indoor bikes and am going to make the effort to set them up a bit better... One (the gym bike) is like a fixie or track bike, is for cardio, and the other one is what I use for HIIT... a conventional bike on a trainer... so I can speed up in different gears and when I cannot hold the high cadence any longer, I can stop pedalling and not break my ankles and knees. Any research on the idea of quad-biased setup for HIIT work, as bigger muscles that can use more energy...?
Hi David. I havent looked into HIIT specifically, but from this video it would make sense to have a more forward saddle position, and in terms of more targeting quads, they are larger phasic muscles so you would need to working specifically at higher intensities (watts)
I wonder if it's worth putting the bike on two scales to see if the saddle position balances the weight evenly (should it even be even!?)
Many bike fitters and frame builders do this. I understand that typical values sought are 40/60 or 45/55 front/back
@@podiumphysio657 it frustrates me how complicated bike-fitting is, and even more so how I spent a fortune on it in the past only for it to not be any more comfortable.
however, your video has given me some hope and things to try - thanks :)
@@syrus3k Bike fitting has the potential to be extremely complex. Sometimes the result you expect from a change made to the bike setup is completely different to what was expected, and sometimes something looks better to the fitter but doesnt feel better to the rider
Start at back and work forward, record feelling, then forward too back, record. Note saddle height. Raise saddle 3mm then repeat fore/aft...record... saddle adjustment are a constant... lifes simple that way... A person will find 3 or 4 settings that will work. Keep a record of the measurements... play with 1 and 2mm micro adjustments in the discovered riding positions. The micro tune will put you in the sweet zone... 😂
Yes that process has merit, but not everyone has the sensitivity, skill and motivation to "DIY" like that.
When the biker is on a wheel off trainer is it actually level the same as it would be on the road ? . . . I've tried to setting up on a trainer and acheived PBs on Zwift, then when I go out on the road it feels horrible ! . . . What are your thoughts ??
To answer your question you need to measure from the ground to the rear axel and compare the same measurement of the front axel. The difference will tell you how much your bike is leaning down or up.
That said there are many difference between indoor and outdoor riding - a topic for another video!
@@podiumphysio657 Thanks, that'd be an interesting video to watch !
As a follow up I measured the difference. I put a strip of masking tape on the chainstay just behind the rear axle and marked a cross on it. Then with the wheels on I measured from the centre of the cross to the ground and the again when the bike was on the trainer. I found the difference to be 13 mm lower on the trainer. This was with 700x40 gravel tyres, I'll check it again with road tyres when I get a chance 👍
@@fasdiablo There is usually a difference, which is why trainers are often sold with a front tyre riser, and there are also available as aftermarket items
well done! My response would be way too lengthy so I might actually do a video for my channel instead. Thank you!
Thanks for your support!
You’re Welcome and I subscribed as well! Good luck with your channel! Cheers
As far forward as possible. Ride on the nose, use a smaller size frame with a log reach in relation to stack and a long stem.
And you will be a “bike fitter” for the rest of your riding career:)
@@tongotongo3143 It's simply the fastest position you can get your body into in order to have the lowest cDA on the smallest frame possible (like a TT bike)...with 155-165 cranks. A padded wide nose saddle like a stealth is best angled 10% down in order to rotate the hips forward and provide an extra push point. You also need a seatpost that's 76 degrees +. This is how you save watts and can make a cheap bike faster than any expensive one. Yes, I am extremely knowledgeable on this. Nothing to prove.
😂😂😂
And you will eventually damage your knees I suspect
@@Michael-s5i5j not at all. I use 155-165 cranks. Very comfortable and have been doing this for 8 years. You also have direct power over the axle similar to standing up. Tilting the saddle at 10 degrees with the seat post high and short cranks gives all the room you need and the natural rotation of hips. One bike I use has 155 cranks and is 538 reach, 498 stack with a -20 custom titanium 170 stem. It is more aero than any tour bike by way of position no different to a TT bike, in fact your head is almost over the tire. It is within the rules. Extremely comfortable.
Why all the crashes?
Not sure what you are referring to sorry
epic
Thanks Dangerous!
KOPS is a place to start and return to if the saddle needs to move
It is worth looking at, but not worth worrying about
@@podiumphysio657 like
i said: it's a place to start. Also repeatable which let's you reset the fit if you need to change something