Seeing apex legends and bf1 being mentiond as playable in this video depresses me. If only we knew how bad things were about to get. Now neither works thanks to ea anticheat.
dollar voting won't work, because most gamers uses windows and don't question things. That's why kenerl anti cheats exists in most games nowadays, the players just don't care about a rootkit installed on their machine as long as they can enjoy the latest fortnite battlepas or play with their friends on valorant.
The only reason I still have a dual boot Windows 10 on my machine is because I can't play Valorant, Genshin Impact and Honkai Star Rail on Linux due to their kernel level anti-cheat. I think you're right. While GPU Passthrough is the only safe option to play those games but for people with less powerful hardware or just casual gamers in general, not playing those games might just be the best option than to go through the hastle of setting up the entire VM workflow. I'm still hopeful that we'll see better anti-cheat compatibility with Linux in the next few years just like how Steam Deck made most Steam games compatible with Linux.
My point exactly, I don't care if a game does not run on Linux because of a bad made anti-cheat... I just play another game... my friends on windows play a game I can't play well either they play a game we all can play together or we don't play together... I would only even consider dual booting if my favorite game stops work on linux, but it does work with some eventual fails here and there with some updates, but then a patch will come to fix the issue in 1 or 2 weeks...
@@behudanoob4867 MHM, I SHALL RESTRAIN 😂 I was talking with embark rob a while back, they have had discussions about supporting it and plenty of people in the finals discord are asking for it. so it should come at some point unless they want to be annoying and not support it :/
5:20 Been doing just that for years - the problem is that we as Linux users are the only ones losing on the fun. Developers don't care about privacy and security if it ensures those pesky cheaters are off, and the majority of PC users have been sold on the idea of letting Riot and Epic and EA and whomever else run rampant on their computers, if that means being able to play online at all.
There are multiple reasons why. Especially for smaller game communities that have games that have game modes that require a large number of players, i.e. Battle royale, big team fight,etc. matchmaking can be a nightmare to deal with. No one wants to play in a match that ideally has 40 players but only has 10. A lot of normies don't even know what "kernel-level" anti-cheat is, what it can do, or even will care. What they see is a cheating problem and think that anticheat "solves it" (despite also with the same keyboard, spamming twitter and reddit with complaints about the anti-cheat not doing anything). No one wants a TF2 (though the current bot crisis is more of a mismanagement than a pure anticheat issue which would take a lot longer to deal with).
@@sharkmisdeedthey do that while anticheats are active, whats the difference? 😂 yall act like any of these anticheats work on anything besides the most rudimentry memory editors
The real solution is on Microsoft side. Don’t allow kernel level drivers anymore like macOS with a new API in user mode. So cheat and anticheat can both only be on user mode.
Linux needs to gain more market share first. We are only at 4% and until that number hits 20% or more there will not be any budge from companies/developers to change their ways
I don't think this is a realistic option personally. Our market share as linux gamers isn't influencial enough to make a difference, and those AAA developers have an interest in kernel level anticheat. Voting with your dollar is known to be an ineffective strategy.
Realize LInux's problems for the mainstream. People want their software to work, they don't care how and don't want to do extra things, if you want them to look in alternatives then don't name your program fucking GIMP. Realize that people want the least amount of friction has possible and don't know what computers really are, or what the hell an OS is. There needs to be a reason for them to switch in the first place too. If I'm gaming on Linux and I have to go into the settings of steam and enable proton, right there is already a failing point of friction, and people will quit. It's sad but true.
@@Robotta dude. That isn't a counter argument to "this thing is bad". It is irrelevant. I don't have a solution because there is none, and I am not required to come up with one to argue that something is ineffective.
@@MRDaved Sometimes it's not that simple. I bought SF6 and it was purported to work well on Linux, but it would crash every few online matches. Since this looks like a rage quit to the servers, you risk lowering your rank, and getting punished with a yellow card or getting banned just because your game crashes on Linux. Proton reviews don't always tell the whole story.
Running a Windows VM with GPU passthrough seems to be the best option to have both. You can already play most games on Linux through Proton, and for the ones that do require Windows, you can just spin up a VM. There are UA-cam videos of people successfully playing games like Halo Infinite like this with very little performance overhead.
@@skelebro9999 That is true, you still need two GPUs and a motherboard with a good IOMMU group. But I do think it is a matter of time for this to be more popular and accessible, just like Proton did.
The one thing that I would like to add is they're doing a somewhat decent job of detecting virtual environments. There's more than likely going to be band waves as they get better at detecting virtualization. A lot of the games that have these sorts of root kit anti-cheats tend to do this and try to prevent VMs from being used. (some will ban you for it) I believe they're concern is the host system tampering with the VM allowing cheats.
@@MatheusCodesConsidering the amount of processors that come with a built-in GPU nowadays that's not as big of an issue as it used to be. Although you're probably going to want two monitors or at least the same monitor with multiple inputs. You could probably run the host system headless to the same effect but that's a pretty complicated solution for most people. I know for a while that IOMMU has been pretty ubiquitous on gaming motherboards. I'm not sure how good the implementation is and what the overhead is on that. I never did any benchmarking on what the overhead is. But I never really had any significant problems doing this in the last decade-ish. I could have also just been lucky.
There's also a giant security concern with kernel level anti-cheet. It has already been actively exploited in a few instances.(from what I remember the driver is actually being distributed with the malware due to it being signed and giving them the functionality they need. So in that case it doesn't really matter if it's installed or not.) It also doesn't help that they're essentially root kits. From what I've seen some of them do they're not always particularly well done and that's concerning. (Almost like their game developers and not security professionals) So it increases the attack surface. Also some of them Open ports and in combination with some of the functionality they have could enable worm-like spreading behavior.(which I personally believe is inevitable) So I'm against rootkit style anti-cheat from a security point of view. It's also a PR and legal/financial liability in my opinion as well. The first time one of these gets exploited to enable a mass malware attack. Whoever's software got used for it is going to be in a world of hurt.
If a game doesn't work on my pc (linux) then I am not playing it or buying it. Easy as that. Most people should think like this. The problem is not the user, the problem is the product. Vote with your wallet. Plenty of games to play that work perfectly within Linux.
2:20 the only counterpoint to the above statement is client-side hacking or informational cheats.... these apparently actually do require kernel level anti-cheat to be stopped from being effective [due to the data never being transmitted to the server and thus undetected]. Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!
Good video but "don't give your money to them" doesn't make much sense to me, linux gamers are less then 1% of most games playerbase, and often porting existing titles to linux will cost more then linux users will ever generate.
@purpasmart_4831 that's because the Linux market includes embedded computers not the specific desktop. I'd be surprised if the Linux desktop market was even equal to 0.02% of the gaming industry.
@@sterlingarcher4282if you check the Steam hardware survey for march of 2024 it says that around 2% of users use Linux (with an increase of 0.18% compared to february). Now that doesn't sound like much but years ago it was less than 1%. How long before it's like 5 or 10%?
The way i see it, kernel-level anti cheats are simply a "phase", the fact of the matter is that kernel-level anti cheats are just not good, while it prevent bob and joe from downloading a cheat on google and using, it absolutely does not prevent anyone from cheating, it is intrusive, and any anti cheat can EASILY be bypassed by having your cheat also run in the kernel level using custom made drivers that has a memory reader and write built in assembly, but cheaters are already beyond kernel level cheats. most cheaters these days cheat using direct memory access, the cheat is executed on a complete different machine than the one which the anti cheat is running on, with DMA (direct memory access) there is truly no way to know if someone is cheating unless they have a statistically unfair advantage. Anti cheat developers are already aware of this, and with DMA on the rise it is simply a matter of time before Anti-Cheats devs play their hand on this on going chess game, with what i know from people that work in the ANTI-CHEAT development scene, most if not all anti-cheat are moving to an AI base performance analysis anti-cheat. does that mean they will ditch kernel-level drivers?, probably not.
While i don't see current kernel-level anti-cheats being ditch even in favor of AI performance analysis anti-cheat, the good thing is that if a new anti-cheat is developed in the future using only AI performance analysis as the method, well it will most likely not come with a kernel driver, and will most likely not even run on a user's computer so it would make any game running such anti-cheat work on linux, unless a company is actively preventing it to work on linux by other means. beast thing to do at this point is to wait and see what happens.
For more context, i know a company that is working on this kind of anti-cheat, they have been doing so for years. these anti-cheat can fully be implemented to work in real time using "demos" a demo in a game is like a video file that contains the data of players for example their position, where they are looking, their speed and other useful data. these demos can be recorded in real time while a match is being played and be passed to an AI model for checking if a player is cheating, at this stage all i know is that while they did implement this into one of their game, they are not actively banning players based on the AI output, but simply checking who is flagged as a cheater and comparing it to a human that concludes if the user was cheating or not from the same demo as the AI, if the human is also flagging them as a cheater, then the AI score increases (like google recaptcha), this method also allows to check previous demo files if they are available to ban any cheaters which might have not been detected by other methods.
Yeah, I forgot who made it, but someone had a 40 minute video explaining the historical trajectory of COD cheaters vs devs, it was very enlightening on just how disadvantaged the dev sides are in this "war"
as long as people have full access to their hardware, there is no way to prevent cheaters. best bet is either AI anti-cheat or dedicated game moderators that manually ban players. this why ps5 and xbox don't have many if any cheaters at all, the hardware is close down, but even then, cheaters would just do cheats by decrypting game packets that get passed to your network before being passed to your game. you can't prevent cheaters only ban them.@@thomasnguyen4427
"most cheaters these days cheat using direct memory access" What the hell are you talking about? Most people cheating, as in the majority of the userbase for whatever cheat provider out there, are using kernel level cheats.. DMA is less than 1% of cheaters currently if even that. Yes DMA is on the rise as costs have gone down (chinese manufacturers are selling dma solutions on the "cheap" now, at least compared to the $500-1000 cards that were in circulation before minus the firmware and guest software needed) but it's STILL far too expensive and quite honestly isn't worth the money for people outside of streamer/competitive use cases.. it's also pointless when you can achieve the same thing with something that is a fraction of the cost. Or better yet, if a game isn't trying to stop the usage of VM's you can do software DMA... and the only way to tackle this, as well as hardware DMA, is on the kernel level (so your back to square one). And regardless of what people say.. DMA is detectable given that you poke and prod enough of whatever device/firmware they are using, and considering DMA providers are gouging their customers with ridiculous prices for their "custom" firmware (just so they do not get detected immediately) should say a thing or two on the overall DMA situation as is... you run a larger risk meeting a DMA user at the high end of MMR and even then they are rare. And as much as i like AI.. it's still far too expensive (to the point where the cost to effectively protect a game with AI alone would DWARF the game server costs, which is why you only see this in use in case by case situations). To effectively combat cheating you are forced to either do real time snapshot comparisons and analytics, or do them on a snapshot to snapshot basis via replay... you start dealing with thousands upon thousands of matches every minute this gets extremely expensive (as depending on client/server tick you are dealing with 50k to 250k or more snapshots per match in a 5v5 @ 60hz), and considering just how stingy publishers/Developers are on game servers it's just not an option for them right now. And from the company you talked about i can only assume you mean anybrain.. which is already in use in apex,LoL,rocket league etc... which all have EXTREME cheating issues still (outside of LoL, what they all have in common is the usage of EAC/EAAC or no kernel level anti cheat at all). The only game that uses anybrain that isn't plagued with cheaters is Valorant, which is mostly down to their extremely extensive use of vanguard. And i say all of this as i completely detest cheaters and also use linux.... linux IS NOT an option for competitive games, period! You can throw money at the issue overall with ai detection, kernel detection etc... but quite frankly the only way to combat this is to close the kernel down completely (regardless of what os you are using), use signed binaries, process sandbox and encrypt memory (to stop DMA in it's tracks). This is going to give issues to any developer out there that relies on any form of process hooking (i.e RTSS, OBS, any debugging tool etc) but will effectively stop cheating. The overall issue here is that there are laws in place to stop this from happening (granted for good reasons).
I can't even enjoy competitive gaming because cheating is so bad on every platform. Back in my day you were either better than me or you weren't and it was an earned badge. All we had to complain about was the guy camping in the corner. Now kids somehow get their hands on cheats and sit there acting satisfied with themselves
some people just like to have an advantage over others, even if they didn't earn it or deserve it. cheating is just a way for people to feed into this power fantasy. they can't actually get better at the game unless they train to become better, this takes discipline and practice. a lot of people are wired to desire instant gratification, therefore cheating is the easiest and fastest way of being "better" than everyone else, even though you're not actually better you're just ruining the game for everyone else.
If you have a gun and your opponent has an axe, do really give a shit if they complain its an axe throwing duel? You might...but a lot of other people wouldn't. Cheaters are just like campers. They don't care about your feelings. They care about their own.
I'm not a systems/OS/anything programmer, I don't know C/C++/Rust. What we need is a way to restrict viewing of an application's memory except for a subset of whitelisted programs on start up...the MSEAL proposal is promising, but only affects writing from understanding. Reads are just as important when it comes to games. That being said, MSEAL could be an important component in all of this. That being said, we would have to wait for game engines to implement such features first.
The issue here is that not every game (genre) has a competitor at all. There is for example no serious contender to the EA FC games and I just want to be able to play with my favourite football team.
There's a few of things here that aren't necessarily accurate... A client-side anti-cheat system does not look for people cheating. The only thing it does is verify that the game client is not being manipulated by any other software and that the signals that the game client is sending to the game server are reliable, at least from an operating system level. Everything else is done by the game developer at the server-side level. Every single game that uses kernel-level anti-cheat also uses server-side anti-cheat protections to detect cheaters. It's not a one or the other situation like you're describing, they're using both methods.
Game publishers will never know how much money they're leaving on the table, and likely won't even think twice about it because even though linux gaming is at a historic high it's still a tiny drop in the bucket and the number of people who are skipping the game because of lack of Linux compatibility is going to be truly insignificant to them. Many of these popular games are also free-to-play which makes the 'voting with your dollars' even less effective.
I can understand why people dont want Linux. Anti cheats are user mode there. I can easily make my own cheats and get them j to kernel. Linux is also a very small community, so most big publishers don't care.
I don't think Linux native gaming is coming back anytime soon. I'm also very concerned about Microsoft making a first party built-into windows anticheat, which is not going to be compatible at all with proton.
Hearing "market will regulate itself" from an "anarchist" and a FOSS software community member was not what I expected to hear at the end of this video. Then I looked at the description and saw the call to "create market incentives" as a solution to problems created by market incentives. Always a weird experience to come across people who are supposedly part of a community of software and platforms that has always represented an alternative to the capital-centred, profit-driven, market-oriented industries, while at the same time parroting the exact lines on "market solutions" that were produced in corporate PR offices of late-stage neoliberal capitalism.
@@ReluctantAnarchist Good to know there's another channel claiming the term "anarchist" while completely disregarding the entire theory of anarchism and the history of its practical applications by communities across the world since the late 19th century 👍 very similar to the American "libertarians".
@@skelebro9999 Videogame industry is not an exception from the neoliberal economics we have been subjected to living under, and suffering effects of, over the past four decades. Publishers dictating releases that turn out half-finished, copy-paste unambitious game projects that are just annual reskins of existing games to ensure safe profits, developer crunch and layoffs, etc all happen because the industry exists in, and operates based on, the logic of that same system.
@@ReluctantAnarchistThe problem I see with the just don't buy it is the amount of people who just will anyways. The Linux / FOSS community is generally better about this but as it's becoming more popular that's not as true as it used to be. Gamer market boycotts have been historically less than effective for the most part. Along with our market share being small enough for them to not care if we don't buy from them. So other solutions probably are going to be also needed.(not that I can come up with any particularly good ones) Hopefully if Microsoft keeps ticking off people so we can be a large enough market share to actually make them care. But for the most part currently market forces really aren't in our favor even if you could get the entire Linux community to boycott them. We're just not a large enough market share for them to care about. They're sort of a catch-22 going on here. To get more people to switch to Linux for gaming we need to get better support but they're not going to care about supporting us because we're not a large market share. I think it would help if valve (or anyone) made a average gamer desktop distro that would be easy to switch to from Windows would help.(and it needs to be relatively hard to break) Especially considering the increasingly annoying decisions Microsoft has been making. Along with performance sometimes being better on Linux. If we can get performance to almost always be the same or better that would help as well.(which is looking more and more likely and is already the case in a decent number of games) We also need to get some of the display technologies implemented as well. Which I believe Valve is now gotten HDR working properly. I'm not sure if the implementation works very well outside of the steam deck OS. Considering xorg isn't being supported anymore hopefully we don't build on top of it. Which means we're going to need to get Wayland in a state where it works for most things. That's going to be somewhat tricky considering current community for Wayland. Hopefully the whole Nvidia thing should be sorted out relatively soon. I'm not sure what the timeline is on proprietary drivers I think it's relatively soon.(My memories pretty vague on this part) But the open source alternative does look promising currently But I couldn't say how much more development time that's going to need. (Hopefully not too much more time)
While I would also love to have another platform than windows its just not convincing enough yet, give it max 10 years and there will be atleast 1 more platform like windows currently is
Not a linux user, possibly never will be, but I refuse to let chinese companies have kernel level access, the fuck? Legit stopping playing LoL after 7 years, because I do not know why a game that has 1 cheater per 1000 games needs kernel level anticheat, when in games like LoL it can be detected very easy with the behavior-analysis.
"Don't buy it" lol... I wont buy Valorant, Genshin, Warzone,... because they are free. And whales will overspend so much on skins that even if the games were $60 and I bought it it wont matter
Seeing apex legends and bf1 being mentiond as playable in this video depresses me. If only we knew how bad things were about to get. Now neither works thanks to ea anticheat.
dollar voting won't work, because most gamers uses windows and don't question things. That's why kenerl anti cheats exists in most games nowadays, the players just don't care about a rootkit installed on their machine as long as they can enjoy the latest fortnite battlepas or play with their friends on valorant.
The only reason I still have a dual boot Windows 10 on my machine is because I can't play Valorant, Genshin Impact and Honkai Star Rail on Linux due to their kernel level anti-cheat.
I think you're right. While GPU Passthrough is the only safe option to play those games but for people with less powerful hardware or just casual gamers in general, not playing those games might just be the best option than to go through the hastle of setting up the entire VM workflow.
I'm still hopeful that we'll see better anti-cheat compatibility with Linux in the next few years just like how Steam Deck made most Steam games compatible with Linux.
Genshin Impact runs just fine on Linux. At least it does for me using Bottles.
@@wido1085 yeah but idk it's scary that you could get banned for playing the game normally.
@@skelebro9999 You really don't though, have been playing on Linux with the same account for 2 years, no ban yet
@@SSquadTeam but still. i guess i'm just way too paranoid
I want to switch to Linux but I play Valorant and setting up a dual boot would be annoying and something I wouldn't know how to do reliability
My point exactly, I don't care if a game does not run on Linux because of a bad made anti-cheat... I just play another game... my friends on windows play a game I can't play well either they play a game we all can play together or we don't play together... I would only even consider dual booting if my favorite game stops work on linux, but it does work with some eventual fails here and there with some updates, but then a patch will come to fix the issue in 1 or 2 weeks...
i shall restrain myself :)
The finals won't work yet
@@behudanoob4867 MHM, I SHALL RESTRAIN 😂
I was talking with embark rob a while back, they have had discussions about supporting it and plenty of people in the finals discord are asking for it.
so it should come at some point unless they want to be annoying and not support it :/
5:20 Been doing just that for years - the problem is that we as Linux users are the only ones losing on the fun. Developers don't care about privacy and security if it ensures those pesky cheaters are off, and the majority of PC users have been sold on the idea of letting Riot and Epic and EA and whomever else run rampant on their computers, if that means being able to play online at all.
6:10 Oof, that one aged horribly wrong. Expect AAA multiplayer on Linux to become nearly extinct at this rate
YOOO new reluctant anarchist video in less than a month :OOO
Why can we not have kernel anti-cheat enabled lobbies and kernel anti-cheat disabled lobbies in games?
this is the smartest solution ever.
@@depralexcrimson too smart for devs
Because, ENEMY_DESTROYER_1337 will join in your lobby and destroy you with his amazing through wall 360 no scope skills
There are multiple reasons why. Especially for smaller game communities that have games that have game modes that require a large number of players, i.e. Battle royale, big team fight,etc. matchmaking can be a nightmare to deal with. No one wants to play in a match that ideally has 40 players but only has 10. A lot of normies don't even know what "kernel-level" anti-cheat is, what it can do, or even will care. What they see is a cheating problem and think that anticheat "solves it" (despite also with the same keyboard, spamming twitter and reddit with complaints about the anti-cheat not doing anything). No one wants a TF2 (though the current bot crisis is more of a mismanagement than a pure anticheat issue which would take a lot longer to deal with).
@@sharkmisdeedthey do that while anticheats are active, whats the difference? 😂 yall act like any of these anticheats work on anything besides the most rudimentry memory editors
The real solution is on Microsoft side. Don’t allow kernel level drivers anymore like macOS with a new API in user mode. So cheat and anticheat can both only be on user mode.
Heard they're thinking about locking the kernel after the shit that happened weeks ago haha.
@@bodycountplays2915 then we need more kernel level attacks
What happened?@bodycountplays2915
What happened? @bodycountplays2915
After the great incident, they will
Linux needs to gain more market share first. We are only at 4% and until that number hits 20% or more there will not be any budge from companies/developers to change their ways
Linux can't gain marketshare if devs don't even give customers alternatives.
shouldn't be hard from voting with my wallet not buying those games, because my wallet is empty :')
or because most of these games are free to play in the first place
I don't think this is a realistic option personally. Our market share as linux gamers isn't influencial enough to make a difference, and those AAA developers have an interest in kernel level anticheat. Voting with your dollar is known to be an ineffective strategy.
Was gonna say yeah, who would on Linux guy a game that doesn't work on Linux anyways? He's saying to do something people just naturally do.
What would you suggest, then?
Realize LInux's problems for the mainstream. People want their software to work, they don't care how and don't want to do extra things, if you want them to look in alternatives then don't name your program fucking GIMP. Realize that people want the least amount of friction has possible and don't know what computers really are, or what the hell an OS is. There needs to be a reason for them to switch in the first place too. If I'm gaming on Linux and I have to go into the settings of steam and enable proton, right there is already a failing point of friction, and people will quit. It's sad but true.
@@Robotta dude. That isn't a counter argument to "this thing is bad". It is irrelevant. I don't have a solution because there is none, and I am not required to come up with one to argue that something is ineffective.
@@MRDaved Sometimes it's not that simple. I bought SF6 and it was purported to work well on Linux, but it would crash every few online matches. Since this looks like a rage quit to the servers, you risk lowering your rank, and getting punished with a yellow card or getting banned just because your game crashes on Linux. Proton reviews don't always tell the whole story.
Running a Windows VM with GPU passthrough seems to be the best option to have both. You can already play most games on Linux through Proton, and for the ones that do require Windows, you can just spin up a VM. There are UA-cam videos of people successfully playing games like Halo Infinite like this with very little performance overhead.
That does need some good specs to run it.
@@skelebro9999 That is true, you still need two GPUs and a motherboard with a good IOMMU group. But I do think it is a matter of time for this to be more popular and accessible, just like Proton did.
The one thing that I would like to add is they're doing a somewhat decent job of detecting virtual environments. There's more than likely going to be band waves as they get better at detecting virtualization. A lot of the games that have these sorts of root kit anti-cheats tend to do this and try to prevent VMs from being used. (some will ban you for it) I believe they're concern is the host system tampering with the VM allowing cheats.
@@MatheusCodesConsidering the amount of processors that come with a built-in GPU nowadays that's not as big of an issue as it used to be. Although you're probably going to want two monitors or at least the same monitor with multiple inputs. You could probably run the host system headless to the same effect but that's a pretty complicated solution for most people. I know for a while that IOMMU has been pretty ubiquitous on gaming motherboards. I'm not sure how good the implementation is and what the overhead is on that.
I never did any benchmarking on what the overhead is. But I never really had any significant problems doing this in the last decade-ish. I could have also just been lucky.
This man single handedly explained my EXACT solution to solve Linux Gaming issues. I am being heard 🙏
There's also a giant security concern with kernel level anti-cheet. It has already been actively exploited in a few instances.(from what I remember the driver is actually being distributed with the malware due to it being signed and giving them the functionality they need. So in that case it doesn't really matter if it's installed or not.) It also doesn't help that they're essentially root kits. From what I've seen some of them do they're not always particularly well done and that's concerning. (Almost like their game developers and not security professionals) So it increases the attack surface.
Also some of them Open ports and in combination with some of the functionality they have could enable worm-like spreading behavior.(which I personally believe is inevitable) So I'm against rootkit style anti-cheat from a security point of view. It's also a PR and legal/financial liability in my opinion as well. The first time one of these gets exploited to enable a mass malware attack. Whoever's software got used for it is going to be in a world of hurt.
If a game doesn't work on my pc (linux) then I am not playing it or buying it. Easy as that. Most people should think like this. The problem is not the user, the problem is the product. Vote with your wallet. Plenty of games to play that work perfectly within Linux.
I'd pin this, I 💯 agree
2:20 the only counterpoint to the above statement is client-side hacking or informational cheats.... these apparently actually do require kernel level anti-cheat to be stopped from being effective [due to the data never being transmitted to the server and thus undetected].
Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!
Good video but "don't give your money to them" doesn't make much sense to me, linux gamers are less then 1% of most games playerbase, and often porting existing titles to linux will cost more then linux users will ever generate.
Linux market share is now 4%. more people game on Linux then Mac.
@purpasmart_4831 that's because the Linux market includes embedded computers not the specific desktop. I'd be surprised if the Linux desktop market was even equal to 0.02% of the gaming industry.
@@sterlingarcher4282 Uh no, that's just for Desktop market. Most embedded stuff isn't even connected to the internet unless it's IoT.
@@sterlingarcher4282if you check the Steam hardware survey for march of 2024 it says that around 2% of users use Linux (with an increase of 0.18% compared to february). Now that doesn't sound like much but years ago it was less than 1%. How long before it's like 5 or 10%?
You don't even have to port, just dont make malware anticheat
The way i see it, kernel-level anti cheats are simply a "phase", the fact of the matter is that kernel-level anti cheats are just not good, while it prevent bob and joe from downloading a cheat on google and using, it absolutely does not prevent anyone from cheating, it is intrusive, and any anti cheat can EASILY be bypassed by having your cheat also run in the kernel level using custom made drivers that has a memory reader and write built in assembly, but cheaters are already beyond kernel level cheats. most cheaters these days cheat using direct memory access, the cheat is executed on a complete different machine than the one which the anti cheat is running on, with DMA (direct memory access) there is truly no way to know if someone is cheating unless they have a statistically unfair advantage. Anti cheat developers are already aware of this, and with DMA on the rise it is simply a matter of time before Anti-Cheats devs play their hand on this on going chess game, with what i know from people that work in the ANTI-CHEAT development scene, most if not all anti-cheat are moving to an AI base performance analysis anti-cheat. does that mean they will ditch kernel-level drivers?, probably not.
While i don't see current kernel-level anti-cheats being ditch even in favor of AI performance analysis anti-cheat, the good thing is that if a new anti-cheat is developed in the future using only AI performance analysis as the method, well it will most likely not come with a kernel driver, and will most likely not even run on a user's computer so it would make any game running such anti-cheat work on linux, unless a company is actively preventing it to work on linux by other means. beast thing to do at this point is to wait and see what happens.
For more context, i know a company that is working on this kind of anti-cheat, they have been doing so for years. these anti-cheat can fully be implemented to work in real time using "demos" a demo in a game is like a video file that contains the data of players for example their position, where they are looking, their speed and other useful data. these demos can be recorded in real time while a match is being played and be passed to an AI model for checking if a player is cheating, at this stage all i know is that while they did implement this into one of their game, they are not actively banning players based on the AI output, but simply checking who is flagged as a cheater and comparing it to a human that concludes if the user was cheating or not from the same demo as the AI, if the human is also flagging them as a cheater, then the AI score increases (like google recaptcha), this method also allows to check previous demo files if they are available to ban any cheaters which might have not been detected by other methods.
Yeah, I forgot who made it, but someone had a 40 minute video explaining the historical trajectory of COD cheaters vs devs, it was very enlightening on just how disadvantaged the dev sides are in this "war"
as long as people have full access to their hardware, there is no way to prevent cheaters. best bet is either AI anti-cheat or dedicated game moderators that manually ban players. this why ps5 and xbox don't have many if any cheaters at all, the hardware is close down, but even then, cheaters would just do cheats by decrypting game packets that get passed to your network before being passed to your game. you can't prevent cheaters only ban them.@@thomasnguyen4427
"most cheaters these days cheat using direct memory access"
What the hell are you talking about?
Most people cheating, as in the majority of the userbase for whatever cheat provider out there, are using kernel level cheats.. DMA is less than 1% of cheaters currently if even that.
Yes DMA is on the rise as costs have gone down (chinese manufacturers are selling dma solutions on the "cheap" now, at least compared to the $500-1000 cards that were in circulation before minus the firmware and guest software needed) but it's STILL far too expensive and quite honestly isn't worth the money for people outside of streamer/competitive use cases.. it's also pointless when you can achieve the same thing with something that is a fraction of the cost.
Or better yet, if a game isn't trying to stop the usage of VM's you can do software DMA... and the only way to tackle this, as well as hardware DMA, is on the kernel level (so your back to square one).
And regardless of what people say.. DMA is detectable given that you poke and prod enough of whatever device/firmware they are using, and considering DMA providers are gouging their customers with ridiculous prices for their "custom" firmware (just so they do not get detected immediately) should say a thing or two on the overall DMA situation as is... you run a larger risk meeting a DMA user at the high end of MMR and even then they are rare.
And as much as i like AI.. it's still far too expensive (to the point where the cost to effectively protect a game with AI alone would DWARF the game server costs, which is why you only see this in use in case by case situations).
To effectively combat cheating you are forced to either do real time snapshot comparisons and analytics, or do them on a snapshot to snapshot basis via replay... you start dealing with thousands upon thousands of matches every minute this gets extremely expensive (as depending on client/server tick you are dealing with 50k to 250k or more snapshots per match in a 5v5 @ 60hz), and considering just how stingy publishers/Developers are on game servers it's just not an option for them right now.
And from the company you talked about i can only assume you mean anybrain.. which is already in use in apex,LoL,rocket league etc... which all have EXTREME cheating issues still (outside of LoL, what they all have in common is the usage of EAC/EAAC or no kernel level anti cheat at all).
The only game that uses anybrain that isn't plagued with cheaters is Valorant, which is mostly down to their extremely extensive use of vanguard.
And i say all of this as i completely detest cheaters and also use linux.... linux IS NOT an option for competitive games, period!
You can throw money at the issue overall with ai detection, kernel detection etc... but quite frankly the only way to combat this is to close the kernel down completely (regardless of what os you are using), use signed binaries, process sandbox and encrypt memory (to stop DMA in it's tracks).
This is going to give issues to any developer out there that relies on any form of process hooking (i.e RTSS, OBS, any debugging tool etc) but will effectively stop cheating.
The overall issue here is that there are laws in place to stop this from happening (granted for good reasons).
I don't understand why people would cheat. Is it a cultural thing somewhere? I don't get it how are they having fun
I can't even enjoy competitive gaming because cheating is so bad on every platform.
Back in my day you were either better than me or you weren't and it was an earned badge.
All we had to complain about was the guy camping in the corner.
Now kids somehow get their hands on cheats and sit there acting satisfied with themselves
some people just like to have an advantage over others, even if they didn't earn it or deserve it. cheating is just a way for people to feed into this power fantasy. they can't actually get better at the game unless they train to become better, this takes discipline and practice. a lot of people are wired to desire instant gratification, therefore cheating is the easiest and fastest way of being "better" than everyone else, even though you're not actually better you're just ruining the game for everyone else.
If you have a gun and your opponent has an axe, do really give a shit if they complain its an axe throwing duel? You might...but a lot of other people wouldn't. Cheaters are just like campers. They don't care about your feelings. They care about their own.
I'm not a systems/OS/anything programmer, I don't know C/C++/Rust. What we need is a way to restrict viewing of an application's memory except for a subset of whitelisted programs on start up...the MSEAL proposal is promising, but only affects writing from understanding. Reads are just as important when it comes to games. That being said, MSEAL could be an important component in all of this. That being said, we would have to wait for game engines to implement such features first.
Where can we get that Excel file detailing compatibility?
browser
The issue here is that not every game (genre) has a competitor at all. There is for example no serious contender to the EA FC games and I just want to be able to play with my favourite football team.
Был подписан на твой русскоязычный канал, алгоритм ютуба порекомендовал этот канал, подписался и на него. Удачи!
There's a few of things here that aren't necessarily accurate... A client-side anti-cheat system does not look for people cheating. The only thing it does is verify that the game client is not being manipulated by any other software and that the signals that the game client is sending to the game server are reliable, at least from an operating system level. Everything else is done by the game developer at the server-side level. Every single game that uses kernel-level anti-cheat also uses server-side anti-cheat protections to detect cheaters. It's not a one or the other situation like you're describing, they're using both methods.
Thanks for the video!
Lol even your english is getting better and clearer. Good video mate
What accent is that haha? Also awesome moustache man.
I'm just glad the games I play have an anti cheat that works on Linux (Arma series and DayZ)
Game publishers will never know how much money they're leaving on the table, and likely won't even think twice about it because even though linux gaming is at a historic high it's still a tiny drop in the bucket and the number of people who are skipping the game because of lack of Linux compatibility is going to be truly insignificant to them. Many of these popular games are also free-to-play which makes the 'voting with your dollars' even less effective.
I can understand why people dont want Linux. Anti cheats are user mode there. I can easily make my own cheats and get them j to kernel. Linux is also a very small community, so most big publishers don't care.
I don't think Linux native gaming is coming back anytime soon.
I'm also very concerned about Microsoft making a first party built-into windows anticheat, which is not going to be compatible at all with proton.
I thnk the best example of the problem is minecraft as they are easy to bypass since they cant detect client sidded mods
Hearing "market will regulate itself" from an "anarchist" and a FOSS software community member was not what I expected to hear at the end of this video. Then I looked at the description and saw the call to "create market incentives" as a solution to problems created by market incentives.
Always a weird experience to come across people who are supposedly part of a community of software and platforms that has always represented an alternative to the capital-centred, profit-driven, market-oriented industries, while at the same time parroting the exact lines on "market solutions" that were produced in corporate PR offices of late-stage neoliberal capitalism.
bro he's talking about video games 💀
why so serious?
Sorry, I am Reluctant Anarchist, not Delusional Communist. Market problems require market solutions.
@@ReluctantAnarchist Good to know there's another channel claiming the term "anarchist" while completely disregarding the entire theory of anarchism and the history of its practical applications by communities across the world since the late 19th century 👍 very similar to the American "libertarians".
@@skelebro9999 Videogame industry is not an exception from the neoliberal economics we have been subjected to living under, and suffering effects of, over the past four decades. Publishers dictating releases that turn out half-finished, copy-paste unambitious game projects that are just annual reskins of existing games to ensure safe profits, developer crunch and layoffs, etc all happen because the industry exists in, and operates based on, the logic of that same system.
@@ReluctantAnarchistThe problem I see with the just don't buy it is the amount of people who just will anyways. The Linux / FOSS community is generally better about this but as it's becoming more popular that's not as true as it used to be. Gamer market boycotts have been historically less than effective for the most part. Along with our market share being small enough for them to not care if we don't buy from them. So other solutions probably are going to be also needed.(not that I can come up with any particularly good ones)
Hopefully if Microsoft keeps ticking off people so we can be a large enough market share to actually make them care. But for the most part currently market forces really aren't in our favor even if you could get the entire Linux community to boycott them. We're just not a large enough market share for them to care about. They're sort of a catch-22 going on here. To get more people to switch to Linux for gaming we need to get better support but they're not going to care about supporting us because we're not a large market share.
I think it would help if valve (or anyone) made a average gamer desktop distro that would be easy to switch to from Windows would help.(and it needs to be relatively hard to break) Especially considering the increasingly annoying decisions Microsoft has been making. Along with performance sometimes being better on Linux. If we can get performance to almost always be the same or better that would help as well.(which is looking more and more likely and is already the case in a decent number of games)
We also need to get some of the display technologies implemented as well. Which I believe Valve is now gotten HDR working properly. I'm not sure if the implementation works very well outside of the steam deck OS. Considering xorg isn't being supported anymore hopefully we don't build on top of it. Which means we're going to need to get Wayland in a state where it works for most things. That's going to be somewhat tricky considering current community for Wayland.
Hopefully the whole Nvidia thing should be sorted out relatively soon. I'm not sure what the timeline is on proprietary drivers I think it's relatively soon.(My memories pretty vague on this part) But the open source alternative does look promising currently But I couldn't say how much more development time that's going to need. (Hopefully not too much more time)
I’m all for voting with your wallet, but I don’t know if the Linux user base is big enough to have an effect.
What is the non shutter game you show at the end?
It looks like the two non-shooter games near the end of the video were Diablo 4 and Songs of Conquest.
@@AndyGneiss Songs of Conquest, that is the one
While I would also love to have another platform than windows its just not convincing enough yet, give it max 10 years and there will be atleast 1 more platform like windows currently is
Ah and what is with dma cheats dude? U forgot
how is this solving the anti cheat problem?
5:55 Krafton doesn't care about making Pubg playable at all ☠☠
Not a linux user, possibly never will be, but I refuse to let chinese companies have kernel level access, the fuck? Legit stopping playing LoL after 7 years, because I do not know why a game that has 1 cheater per 1000 games needs kernel level anticheat, when in games like LoL it can be detected very easy with the behavior-analysis.
It's more about launcher that lets you have skins, they don't care about people, only money
spyware
the only real solution is: Not produce all these crap online games anymore! I'd love it! xD
Imagine they need a 2nd computer to hack
❤
"Don't buy it" lol... I wont buy Valorant, Genshin, Warzone,... because they are free. And whales will overspend so much on skins that even if the games were $60 and I bought it it wont matter
Where do you get it for free?
@@sterlingarcher4282Those are free games. You simply download their launchers and then download the game...
ahhh yes just dont buy it, what about the ea games we have already purchased and played extensively. we can no longer play them at all.
HELLO
Nice dream - keep dreaming buddy :))
Honestly, screw this anti-cheat crap
Linux is for suckers
I'm indeed the one who does the sucking.
You do realize even Microsoft uses Linux, right?
Windows is for people who enjoy slop
i am a sucker. i do enjoy sucking sometimes.
@blindsniper35 you don't even know what Linux is.