Once I tried to help someone switch to Linux and when I told him how to install Discord the first thing he noticed was that it's listed as unsafe and I had to explain that it basically means nothing if an app is listed as unsafe. Trying to teach Linux to other people can really open your eyes how bad the ecosystem is sometimes for normal users
The Linux definition of safe and the Windows definition of safe are two _very_ different things. Linux - "This program hasn't been thoroughly vetted" Windows - "This program _probably_ isn't malware."
@@azurarobo On Flathub Discord is a verified app and still it's labelled as unsafe because it can access user devices, network and folders in the home dir. It's ridiculous if you ask me
@@azurarobo Not verified in Flathub means that the Maintainer of a Flatpak package hasn't validated that said package really belongs to them. And aren't to be trusted as easily as verified packages. Unsafe in this context means that an app has access to more than it's containerised environment and could send telemetry and other data.
feel the linux mint guys have made the best app store experience. My only complaint with it is there decision to hide unverified apps which for a new user who does not know that could be weird.
@@comosaycomosahI only had that problem when I first installed Mint, but after a couple of days it somehow resolved and software manager now opens instantly
I thought about it and I think they did the right thing. Because if you search for Steam or Chrome or other popular apps you will find flatpaks but they are NOT FROM THE DEVELOPERS. So by hiding them you can then Google "Download steam" and by that you would get the original better version of steam straight from Valve.
both of yall's opinions are exactly my experience, lol i literally went into the comment to write how i think mint did it well for me, i even discovered anki has a pc version from it accidentally which was one of GNOME's goals so yeah
Great video! I personally don't have any real issues with the way apps stores work, and I they did help me make the switch to Linux. But I totally agree that they still have plenty of room for improvement. Hopefully Linux as a whole will continue to grow in this area.
"By the way, KDE Discover is still loading" 🗣🔥💀 I have no idea just _why_ Linux app stores are so bad when seemingly every graphical front end for any package manager works just fine. Synaptic for Debian? No problem. DnfDragora for Fedora? Works great. Pamac for Arch? Includes the AUR with a simple setting, & you can even select optional dependencies. Yet for some inconceivable reason, even the most comprehensive desktop environments fail to provide such a basic function. I just don't get it.
Yeah, I've been here for long enough to see speed worsen, and while I hate to point fingers it seems to be consistent with usage of AppStream, annoyingly. Anything NOT using AppStream, excluding legacy Ubuntu Software Center (pre switch to GNOME Software, because USC was infamous for slowness... but only for the first loading screen per USC session), seems to not have as serious a speed issue. This being said, I might be wrong but it might be the case that COSMIC App Store is also using AppStream, so given that's fast there is therefore another problem going on with the other cases that must be causing the issue instead.
@@ThatLinuxDude app stores do have to load more data than a GUI front end for a package manager. If I had to guess, cosmic does a better job of caching in the background so it's all ready to go when you want to use it
The terminal is something that I’ve gotten used to, like many others. We just prefer it to the AppStores because we’ve learned how to use it. And because of how simple it is, it’s harder to break
I'm no longer a newbie Linux user, but I still use the app center, alongside the terminal. The way stuff is presented can be helpful when I'm not exactly sure what am I looking for.
@@vilian9185 as an Arch user I've broken my bootloader at least 3 times, but because I did everything myself, I was able to fix it myself through research. All of the times it's broken, it's been my fault (I wasn't around for the grub incident). Much better than having issues caused by somebody else. Arch isn't for everyone, but for me it's the only one I feel comfortable in.
@@HisVirusness because it's a lot easier to verify the every apps dependencies before installing it, or needing to install it from other source because the official repos are out-of-date
I suspect the issue is a lack of a decision hierarchy, that results in having no authority checking the app source and putting a stamp of approval (a la apple) or removing essentially duplicate apps (that could be legitimate but confusing). While this is the Linux ethos, the Linux ethos is a big part of why Linux is not beginner friendly
ya i'm used to waiting 10 effing minutes for kde appstore to load on my laptop, i don't understand those people saying every single thing microsoft does is wrong when linux works just some times...
thethe gaming section is also broken, try to find an game on steam, and compare it to the app center... its a day and night difference, steam really want you to play the games (and purchase then), they put an poster of the game or an screenshot of it in front of you so you cant ignore it. app center? well, i guess an icon and short description will do it...
@@Lucas-yh5zz nix can do both imperative and declarative package management. With its imperative functionality, it should easily work with a simple gui frontend
1:45 Wait, what? I just click install, go back to software, click on the next app and click install again and both apps install just fine on fedora workstation. I even looked at "installed" tab once and five apps were installing at the same time
1:50 Because free and open-source doesn't have to mean free of cost. Most FOSS licenses allow you to take the software and sell it for profit, no matter if you developed it or not. Zorin OS's Pro edition is just a fancy donation model, they're not trying to scam anyone
Yep, definetely less accent should be put onto permissions. Something more neutral that just lists what the app has access to would be enough in my opinion
That "unsafe" business is a terrible choice. It is like how California insists on labeling nearly everything as potentially carcinogenic. The bigger concern when it comes to causing distress to new users is that people will just start filtering it out mentally, the same way most people filter out the EU's "OMG THIS SITE USES COOKIES" warnings on practically every web page. My car's stupid nav system warns me how it isn't responsible for map errors and how I shouldn't rely on it -- and I have to tap an affirmation *every time I use it.* It is a bad approach to this and people need to knock it off.
Oh sorry, I deleted my comment about captions. It will be more work for you so I deleted the suggestion, try making a poll so that you won't have to work extra hours for a few viewers
It is for an other use case. On terminal, you can not search for app you don't have the name, you can't read if the app does what you want, you can not see what autorisation apps needs, you don't have pictures or reviews. Terminal is only when you already know exactly what you want with it exact name (or you have to search on a web browser).
@@labonnelambda58 actually you can search with a similar name or have autocompletion for the possible names starting with for example "fir". But I understand CLI is not intended for search, however using the web browser for searching your package on the official repository is very easy. Just need to copy the name inside the command like "sudo apt install" or "sudo flatpak install x" or "sudo pacman -S x". For example try to install 30 apps with one command on Android, as a normal user it is not possible and you need to do it manually.
I maybe sound weird but package managers + website to find the package is great and more simple solution. For example of I want to search some specific package I can search on the arch, AUR or flatpak and just type the command. As an arch maintainer said GUI package manager are complex and more difficult to maintain, while a CLI package manager is a simpler solution. But I understand that GUI package manager are oriented for noob Linux user, however cli is more powerful and simpler.
On the hand Linux desktop are copying Windows, Mac and Android store, which are "real stores". And on the other hand Windows is copying package manager and improving it with Winget. While graphical software center is good for new users, a package manager is more simpler and effective. And people should learn how to use it.
Once I tried to help someone switch to Linux and when I told him how to install Discord the first thing he noticed was that it's listed as unsafe and I had to explain that it basically means nothing if an app is listed as unsafe. Trying to teach Linux to other people can really open your eyes how bad the ecosystem is sometimes for normal users
The Linux definition of safe and the Windows definition of safe are two _very_ different things.
Linux - "This program hasn't been thoroughly vetted"
Windows - "This program _probably_ isn't malware."
@@trajectoryunown No. The definition is what each user understands by a label. If it is labelled unsafe, most users would assume its probably malware.
They could label it as "not verified" or smth
@@azurarobo On Flathub Discord is a verified app and still it's labelled as unsafe because it can access user devices, network and folders in the home dir. It's ridiculous if you ask me
@@azurarobo Not verified in Flathub means that the Maintainer of a Flatpak package hasn't validated that said package really belongs to them. And aren't to be trusted as easily as verified packages. Unsafe in this context means that an app has access to more than it's containerised environment and could send telemetry and other data.
feel the linux mint guys have made the best app store experience. My only complaint with it is there decision to hide unverified apps which for a new user who does not know that could be weird.
I love mint and the software center is pretty good......when it loads lol
@@comosaycomosah mint 22 has fixed that a bit
@@comosaycomosahI only had that problem when I first installed Mint, but after a couple of days it somehow resolved and software manager now opens instantly
I thought about it and I think they did the right thing. Because if you search for Steam or Chrome or other popular apps you will find flatpaks but they are NOT FROM THE DEVELOPERS. So by hiding them you can then Google "Download steam" and by that you would get the original better version of steam straight from Valve.
both of yall's opinions are exactly my experience, lol
i literally went into the comment to write how i think mint did it well for me, i even discovered anki has a pc version from it accidentally which was one of GNOME's goals so yeah
Great video! I personally don't have any real issues with the way apps stores work, and I they did help me make the switch to Linux. But I totally agree that they still have plenty of room for improvement. Hopefully Linux as a whole will continue to grow in this area.
"By the way, KDE Discover is still loading" 🗣🔥💀
I have no idea just _why_ Linux app stores are so bad when seemingly every graphical front end for any package manager works just fine.
Synaptic for Debian? No problem. DnfDragora for Fedora? Works great. Pamac for Arch? Includes the AUR with a simple setting, & you can even select optional dependencies.
Yet for some inconceivable reason, even the most comprehensive desktop environments fail to provide such a basic function. I just don't get it.
Yeah, I've been here for long enough to see speed worsen, and while I hate to point fingers it seems to be consistent with usage of AppStream, annoyingly.
Anything NOT using AppStream, excluding legacy Ubuntu Software Center (pre switch to GNOME Software, because USC was infamous for slowness... but only for the first loading screen per USC session), seems to not have as serious a speed issue.
This being said, I might be wrong but it might be the case that COSMIC App Store is also using AppStream, so given that's fast there is therefore another problem going on with the other cases that must be causing the issue instead.
@@ThatLinuxDude app stores do have to load more data than a GUI front end for a package manager. If I had to guess, cosmic does a better job of caching in the background so it's all ready to go when you want to use it
@@trajectoryunown kde discover is the Microsoft store of Linux. I'm glad it pushed me to using cli for installing apps
@@trajectoryunown kde discover is the Microsoft store of Linux. I'm glad it pushed me to using cli for packages
Somehow Mint 22 did a really nice job
Division by zero is potentially unsafe
That 'unsafe' thing bugged me so much back in a day. I immediately got it deleted. And I still delete that junk of a appstore if I distrohop.
Lots of good info for developers here... now if only I was one such developer...
I wonder what it takes to make a really good app store for Linux.
The terminal is something that I’ve gotten used to, like many others. We just prefer it to the AppStores because we’ve learned how to use it. And because of how simple it is, it’s harder to break
I'm no longer a newbie Linux user, but I still use the app center, alongside the terminal. The way stuff is presented can be helpful when I'm not exactly sure what am I looking for.
This is why I use vanilla Arch. More abstraction leads to more complexity, which can lead to a litany of problems down the line.
Until you install any app and your system don't boot anymore
@@vilian9185 works on my machine
@@vilian9185 That sounds like a personal problem.
@@vilian9185 as an Arch user I've broken my bootloader at least 3 times, but because I did everything myself, I was able to fix it myself through research. All of the times it's broken, it's been my fault (I wasn't around for the grub incident). Much better than having issues caused by somebody else. Arch isn't for everyone, but for me it's the only one I feel comfortable in.
@@HisVirusness because it's a lot easier to verify the every apps dependencies before installing it, or needing to install it from other source because the official repos are out-of-date
I suspect the issue is a lack of a decision hierarchy, that results in having no authority checking the app source and putting a stamp of approval (a la apple) or removing essentially duplicate apps (that could be legitimate but confusing). While this is the Linux ethos, the Linux ethos is a big part of why Linux is not beginner friendly
Thanks for these videos!
I loved the keyboard sound. Which keyboard it is? Keys?
Keyboard is a lie!
ua-cam.com/users/shortsw2cQFoq8dBs
Bro is back
Which switches are you using I love the keyboard sound.
ya i'm used to waiting 10 effing minutes for kde appstore to load on my laptop, i don't understand those people saying every single thing microsoft does is wrong when linux works just some times...
4:37 Or just click search and search what they want
thethe gaming section is also broken, try to find an game on steam, and compare it to the app center...
its a day and night difference, steam really want you to play the games (and purchase then), they put an poster of the game or an screenshot of it in front of you so you cant ignore it.
app center? well, i guess an icon and short description will do it...
We need app centers with support for Nixpkgs
Do we though?
@@Lucas-yh5zz yes. It's literally the best cross distro, and even cross platform package manager
@@RenderingUser I'm not saying it's a bad package manager, I just don't see how a gui front end would really benefit it
@@Lucas-yh5zz nix can do both imperative and declarative package management. With its imperative functionality, it should easily work with a simple gui frontend
1:45 Wait, what? I just click install, go back to software, click on the next app and click install again and both apps install just fine on fedora workstation. I even looked at "installed" tab once and five apps were installing at the same time
I think he said that that problem (only being able to install one app at a time) is on Solus. It should be fine on Fedora
yum drew me in, stayed cus they didn't botch dnf. They had awesome guis too. Gnome software center is trash.
It's broken on every single distribution that is using GNOME Software
What is the web browser you used when showing your Telegram?
1:50 Because free and open-source doesn't have to mean free of cost. Most FOSS licenses allow you to take the software and sell it for profit, no matter if you developed it or not. Zorin OS's Pro edition is just a fancy donation model, they're not trying to scam anyone
I have never used an app center before and I never will
Yep, definetely less accent should be put onto permissions. Something more neutral that just lists what the app has access to would be enough in my opinion
That "unsafe" business is a terrible choice. It is like how California insists on labeling nearly everything as potentially carcinogenic. The bigger concern when it comes to causing distress to new users is that people will just start filtering it out mentally, the same way most people filter out the EU's "OMG THIS SITE USES COOKIES" warnings on practically every web page. My car's stupid nav system warns me how it isn't responsible for map errors and how I shouldn't rely on it -- and I have to tap an affirmation *every time I use it.*
It is a bad approach to this and people need to knock it off.
Oh sorry, I deleted my comment about captions.
It will be more work for you so I deleted the suggestion, try making a poll so that you won't have to work extra hours for a few viewers
Andrea Borman sent me here
And thats why terminal is best
I firstly don't like it too much but now I do, CLI is simpler and mor effective. And you can make bash script using the package managers.
It is for an other use case. On terminal, you can not search for app you don't have the name, you can't read if the app does what you want, you can not see what autorisation apps needs, you don't have pictures or reviews. Terminal is only when you already know exactly what you want with it exact name (or you have to search on a web browser).
@@labonnelambda58 no it is for begginers also you can search and i dont need pictures of git or firefox or vscodium
@@labonnelambda58 actually you can search with a similar name or have autocompletion for the possible names starting with for example "fir".
But I understand CLI is not intended for search, however using the web browser for searching your package on the official repository is very easy. Just need to copy the name inside the command like "sudo apt install" or "sudo flatpak install x" or "sudo pacman -S x".
For example try to install 30 apps with one command on Android, as a normal user it is not possible and you need to do it manually.
I think this just proves that linux devs are bad at UX. Not that surprising really
Appimages are great and maybe easier to use, the only thing is security - can you make it so there are checks?.
"app store" means ....... a "storeroom for apps" ............how simple is that. It has NOTHING to do with purchases
I maybe sound weird but package managers + website to find the package is great and more simple solution.
For example of I want to search some specific package I can search on the arch, AUR or flatpak and just type the command. As an arch maintainer said GUI package manager are complex and more difficult to maintain, while a CLI package manager is a simpler solution.
But I understand that GUI package manager are oriented for noob Linux user, however cli is more powerful and simpler.
On the hand Linux desktop are copying Windows, Mac and Android store, which are "real stores". And on the other hand Windows is copying package manager and improving it with Winget.
While graphical software center is good for new users, a package manager is more simpler and effective. And people should learn how to use it.
How much these are some Ubuntu issues? Like everything related to snap packages, duplicates etc.
Debian 12 Gnome app center seems to suck much less.