I see alot of manufactures who make aluminum coils where the bottom refrigerant line sits to low in the condensate pan causing it stay submerged in water. They always end up leaking there. I like Trane coils too because they are raised up higher out of the condensate pan and stay dryer. I think their best coil they sell is the MX series coils. They are pvc coated which prevent dirty sock syndrome and even has heat shrink around the capillary tubes. Great information in your video. Thank you.
Good video. I installed a Goodman unit with all aluminum coil (Daikin switched to all aluminum a number of yrs back) in 2022 and so far, so good, though I did have a TXV go bad. Ended up pushing me into an LPCO lockout due to freeze up from the coil out to the condensing unit. Crazy one little item going bad and what that can cause downstream.
I have same issue with my Lennox unit. Coil leak, undetectable without nitrogen test which I got years after the issue started. Thanks for the clarification on what is causing the issue. Was planning to go with Trane for the next one and this gives me added confidence.
Sorry to hear about your leaks, I do have a couple of questions, how old is your system and check to see if it actually is a Lennox coil? Be aware that many companies use 3rd party coils.
Great Info, thank you. I actually thought that All Aluminum coils were inferior to copper/aluminum and that manufacturers had gone to aluminum to save money.
This was very helpful. Coil #3 on my 2011 Lennox Signature has now failed - at least that is the high indication without an overpriced leak test. My first Lennox was great. I replaced proactively at 10 years to the high efficiency. I wish I’d just kept it until it died but as you know in FL the last thing you want is for your A/C to die and you have to act hastily. Is the new Lennox Quantum cool any better? I was searching on that which is how I found this video.
Thanks for the comment. Just make sure they are all aluminum or tin plated. As for Lennox now, I gave them up and washed my hands of them back in 2010 when all the coils we found were leaking. We found too many problems with their equipment compared to everything else we were setting. So, not sure how good they are. Unfortunately, advertising does work as they spend more than any other company for ads and that is why they continue to operate.
Let me know what brand please. Did you put the coil in a dunk tank to see where it was leaking from? Also check out my latest video on formicary corrosion. ua-cam.com/video/sHNF7SKU4Cc/v-deo.html
We replace all aluminum coils everyday. TAM Trane Evap leaks after a few months of install. We do closer to 3 k installs a year. Please don’t think your Trane unit won’t leak. I prefer the tinned coils.
I can only speak from our experience, we have over a 200 to 1 ratio of copper aluminum coils springing leaks compared to all aluminum. Although we don't set as many as you, about a 10th as many per year, it is still a 200 to 1 ratio. In addition, since switching we have only had one or two all aluminum coils leak each year out of the hundreds we install,, and those were either bad factory welds or tubing rubbing together or against the case. I will grant that you have some coils that leak that are all aluminum, however, it no way compares to the copper aluminum leaks in units that we have found.
I found that it doesn't matter which brand, the catalyst was the copper tubing and aluminum fins create a anode-cathode circuit and starts eating away at the copper. However, I am no corrosion engineer but I firmly believe that there is some other contributing factors. First, they thinned the copper tubing in order to get better heat transfer. Second, they rifled the copper tubing to facilitate better refrigerant flow and heat transfer, while strengthening the copper tubing. Third, we switched from R22 to R410a refrigerant, and R410a uses POE oil, a synthetic oil. Fourth, I believe the corrosion was aided by a phenomenon called flow electrification. Flow electrification is the ability of a fluid to hold a static charge. I believe that the POE oil and the R410a refrigerant actually builds up a static charge as if flows through the copper tubing. Then as the oil and liquid refrigerant enters the evaporator coil and begins to boil off into a gas the static charge that was built up is released. This extra charge aids in the corrosion happening much quicker than it would naturally occur over time. Add in that the wall of the tubing is thinner and we have the perfect storm. When this all began occurring I tried several science departments at several universities to see if one of them would take this up and see if my hypothesis was correct. However, the physics department said is was a chemistry problem and the chemistry department said it was a physics problem and it went nowhere. That all being said, the true fix was to go to all aluminum coils, since switching I have only replaced about 3 all aluminum coils and those were from bad factory welds. Thanks for the post.
Thank you this information. My Lennox just failed after 12 years. The replacement Ruud has all aluminum evaporator but has copper tube fin condenser. You didn't mention condensers. Do they have the same issues?
Hi, no the condenser coils don't have the same problems we have been running into on the evaporator coils. One of the big factors to cause this corrosion is that the evap coil gets wet. This moisture facilitates the corrosion. However, condenser coils usually are dry and so we don't see the leaks forming there. However, heat pump outdoor coils do run in the winter and they do build moisture, and ice on them. That being said, we do a few heat pumps, but we aren't replacing any coils, so I think the outside coil is safe.
I sure could use some advice. I live in NC and my 1st floor HVAC system and ductwork was replaced last fall with high efficiency Trane equipment. At the same time the crawl space was cleaned of mold and encapsulated with the space now conditioned by the HVAC system. It worked great through the winter and summer. Then in the fall we no longer saw the cooling cycle engage until two weeks back when it got hot. That's when the whole house smelled so bad we had to leave. A Trane tech performed a full pm on the furnace and exposed the aluminum AC coil. The coil looked clean. The tech said this did not smell like dirty sick syndrome. Everyone who has been consulted so far is stumped. Someone said it's the fault of the aluminum coil since it doesn't have the antimicrobial properties of copper. Any thought?
Aluminum Coils can produce a benign bacteria called Googlii. Since it has not anti Microbial properties like copper does. It can clog drain lines. ONe solution is to have a uv light installed in the evap coil. One brand is called "Bluetube". Or other product like an "Air crubber" or "I-wave C" can be installed and is suppose to help keep odors down and kill bacteria and viruses. Check it out and see if it helps.
I am in a FL costal environment and I have a Lennox XC21 compressor unit and garage mounted ceiling air handler that was installed in 2011. Thank goodness it had a 10 year parts and labor warranty. I had 3 coils replaced under warranty with the last coil replaced in 2019 during the pandemic. The last coil that was installed was an aluminum coil - I believe they market it as their Quantum coil. I did notice a significate increase in organic material build-up and my drain being clogged but so far the aluminum coil has been holding up. I know my system is reaching the end of it's useful life - in a coastal environment would you recommend a Trane system?
I switched to Trane because they had all aluminum coils, and yes I would recommend them. As for the organic build up, many call it elephant snot. Brian Orr of HVAC School.com has a video on it. He postulates that this recent occurrence of elephant snot was because we switched to all aluminum coils. The old copper tubing had properties that kept this from happening the same as using bottom paint for your boat that has copper in it to resist barnacles from growing. He went so far as to recommend putting a couple of pieces of copper in the drain pan to help prevent it from forming. Here in California we don't get as much humidity so we don't have that much growth on our condensate systems. Below is a link to his video and my second video just recently that details my theory of what I believe is the real culprit. ua-cam.com/video/5VOffWjmWkk/v-deo.html studio.ua-cam.com/users/videosHNF7SKU4Cc/edit
I have a Carrier 24ANA Infinity using Puron refrigerant that was installed in Oct 2010. The coils code, CNPVP6124ATAABAA, started to rust after 4-5 yrs & are now severly corroded. No leaks yet, but replacement is recommended. I live in hot, humid Mphs, TN, so no AC is a no-go. I installed a UV-C in 2020, prepandemic, to reduce mold in the system & to help my asthma. Recommended replacement of other aging & worn components is estimated to cost $11k. Would you recommend parts replacement, including a new coil (aluminum, I hope)? Or would a full unit replacement be more appropriate? Thank you for your info & insight.
I would replace it now before R410a system are gone even though you might get another 5 years out of the old system. I recommend you go with an all aluminum coil as you won't see the corrosion as you would see on a galvanized fin plates as they would be aluminum. You can insist on this from your contractor, make them put it in the contract. Humidity is a problem with any brand of equipment. It would not hurt to save the UV system and have it installed on the new unit. If you asthma and allergies I suggest you go with a Trane CleanEffects Whole Home Air Cleaner to capture what the UV doesn't kill. You can always email me your proposal and I can look it over before you make a decision and give you some advice. baileysair@sbcglobal.net Mitch
I was looking around for this issue. Last Friday we found out the Unit we purchased in late 2017 has the leaking problem. It will cost us $1000 to have them replaced. SO it appears that they are still selling units with defective coils. I'm very angry about this because I was never given the option for a different brand. I will NEVER get a Lennox again and will tell EVERYONE to avoid them like the plague. After additional research it appears that even if we get this one changed out, we may still have the same problem two years up the road because it will happen again. I wonder if they can be sued again. If this problem happens again on a new set, I will be finding a money hungry attorney to go after them.
Hello Josephine, sorry to see that you have a leaking coil. I would request that they give you an all aluminum coil if they make one for that unit or that they give you a tin coated coil. This would eliminate replacement of the coil down the road. If they can't give you either, you could have them send the coil out to be coated before they install it. As for suing them again, not sure you can because they have already settled the case and that may have exempted them, of course I am not a lawyer, so you might try to see if someone will take it on contingency. Just be aware that in the future when you need to replace your system, you will need an all aluminum indoor coil. Good luck.
@@baileysair Thank you. I am currently reading your article about the corrosion and coils. It's very informative. I called the company we use for our bi-annual servicing. I asked them if the parts are failing and if they find that they have to replace them again. He would not answer the question, and he stated that he believes they are aluminum.( Which tells me he does not know) I assume that it will be obvious if they are aluminum when the part comes in. Thank you for the advice on having them coated. That will save me thousands up the road. It's insane that a company can settle a suit and not fix the problem. What was the coating I should ask for? Thank you! I learned something today.
@@enigma___ My pleasure. The coils may have aluminum fins and copper tubing, it is the copper tubing that is developing the leaks. What happens is that a cathode-anode reaction occurs between the copper tubing and the aluminum fins. All it needs is some moisture and any chlorides, acetates, and/or formaldehyde in the air to stick to the coil. The copper then gives up its ions and starts to corrode, eventually developing into a leak. The worst part about this is that the manufacturers know about this issue and yet many of them continue to use copper/aluminum coils instead of all aluminum coils. Even Trane, the brand I switched too because they have all aluminum coils, still make some units that use copper aluminum. Of course, I refuse to use those units because of the formicary corrosion issue. My advice is to make sure that the replaced coil is all aluminum, so that you are not doing this again in the near future. Best of luck, Mitch Bailey
I need to have my copper-aluminum condenser coil replaced with an all aluminum coil. Will all of the connecting tubing need to be replaced with aluminum tubing to prevent new corrosion from forming?
Question, this is the condenser coil that needs replacing? I ask because we have not had a plethora of condenser coils that need replacing. Unfortunately, the condenser coil usually comes from the OEM and that will be what ever type they make them in, some like Trane are all aluminum, other brands are still mixed metal coils. However, you can have the whomever is replacing the coil send it off to be epoxy coated so this would not be a problem in the future. They usually do this when the coils is in a corrosive environment such as close to the ocean. This can be pricey, but the coil should then last the life of the system.
Homeowner: Got new 5 ton Trane installed 11/2016. Coil had to be replaced in two years. Had to pay for labor and refrigerant. Now 5 years later leaking again! Told my warranty is good till 2026. Any recommendations? Should the warranty for at least the coil be restarted when it's replaced? Thanks.
Is the A frame also aluminum? I found this video while searching for possible explanations for why my A frame is severely rusting (Carrier, steel A frame, copper coils, ~12 years old). It seems like straightforwardly bad design. Noted from your comments: Don't buy Carrier or Lennox. Consider Trane instead. (My mother's Trane heat pump still runs like a champ after 20+ years in Texas.)
Will 3% hydrogen peroxide, if applied to the aluminum evaporator coils cause formicary corrosion? There has been at least one HVAC forum post that claims regular store hydrogen peroxide will not cause corrosion. It is an effective method of killing mold and bacteria on the coils.
Thank you for answering and providing this very informative video. My Carrier vendor tech came to turn on my system he did not know what to do about the foul smell coming from the vents. I have been a bit frantic because after spraying the coils with hydrogen peroxide, which killed the smell, i thought some kind of chemical reaction occurred and i would need to replace my coil.i believe some kind of fumes were coming when the system was running. Very puzzling.
@@thomast9736 The fumes could come from the reaction of hydrogen peroxide with organic material on the coil that was causing the smell. We usually will mix a few teaspoons of bleach with a gallon of water and and a few table spoons of lemon juice to mask the smell. The bleach kills the mildew and mold on the coil and helps keep away the dirty sock syndrome. You could also install a UV light on the coil that will work 24hours a day killing anything that grows on the coil. This too will stop the smells.
Aluminum coils are junk....Goodman coils leak consistently...some right out of the box....as do so many other manufacturers... Years ago when G.E. made coils they lasted over 40 years. They used thicker copper and thicker aluminum fins...just as you said. They did however make the aluminum spined fin coil that was great...thick aluminum tubing that lasted for years! I still service some systems from the late 70's mid 80's still in service that have outlasted newer systems. Manufacturers simply make the coils thinner to make them CHEAPER...The manufacturer's put a nice spin on their reason to making thinner coils is in the consumers best interest to "save energy" ...but the real reason is because it saves the MANUFACTURER MONEY ....FOLLOW THE MONEY ! the thinner coils attribute to a marginal savings of energy versus the impact cost to the consumer to have to pay for a coil out of warranty. The EPA puts blame on the technicians and industry for venting refrigerant which destroys ozone or attributing to greenhouse warming gasses into the atmosphere....when the biggest issue is the manufacturers making junk coils which leak refrigerant into the atmosphere. The EPA should be on the manufacturers ass to make a refrigerant containment vessel that is worthy of protecting the environment...The manufacturers have deep pockets to hire lawyers to do otherwise...where as the average Joe consumer get's screwed. GREAT VIDEO... It's nice to see another fellow HVAC Contractor that recognizes the true issues with equipment quality.
I really haven't found many leaking aluminum coils since our switch. In fact, we won't do a copper aluminum coil because of formicary corrosion. Any of the aluminum coils we found with leaks were from the factory as bad welds or bad design with two pieces of tubing rubbing together, either way we just replace the coil, slide out the old one and install a new one under warranty. I know you say follow the money, but this type of failure the manufacturer doesn't want either because it does cost them money. However, you are right in that they are making the tubing thinner to save on cost, but this also does make them more efficient. If you really want to get into the weeds about follow the money, go back and look at who brought to the attention of the ozone problem and refrigerants at the Montreal Protocols. It was DuPont who owned the patent for R22 and R12. They said it was destroying the ozone so we need to ban the refrigerant, oh and lo and behold they were losing their patent for those refrigerants in 1999 so what better way to continue receiving billons of dollars in royalties by coming up with R134a and R410a. Yep follow the money! Thanks for the comment.
Fortunately, we don't have a huge problem with moisture here in the Central Valley of California, so we don't see the white rust you are talking about. So, I can't speak to that problem, only what we have seen with Formicary Corrosion. Check out this information paper that ACCA gives to it's members about Formicary Corrosion. www.americancoolingandheating.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/What-Causes-Formicary-Corrosion.pdf
A manufacturer Can't double the pressure of refrigerant, Have thinner tubing and insufficient welding practices and not have leaks. I have a 30 year old evap coil and hasnt ever leaked yet
You do have a point, thinning the copper allows this corrosion to eat very quickly through the copper tubing. Your 30 year old coil was much thicker and will probably develop these same leaks only it will take decades and not years because of the thicker copper. Thanks for the comment and when time to replace use all aluminum or coated copper aluminum coil.
@@baileysair My company is a Rheem dealer. And we had a class on the systems. And I believe Rheem has doubled the thickness of the coil tubes. But made them 7mm instead of 3/8.
@@smacleod69 My whole problem with this is that the manufacturers knew this was occurring and turned a blind eye or blamed the air in the home and they knew what to do to fix this. I had 800+ pissed off customers at me because of all the failures. In other words, my reputation suffered because these guys hid what was going on. If you want to equate this to some things happening recently, take a good hard look at getting the Jab and all the health problems that occurred from that.
Either way Aluminum cant hold pressure of R410a for long run 😀, just another way to low down the cost from manufacturing. I have seen many aluminum coil leaking and its hard to repair when the system containminated..I like the old day when they make copper so thick..I have seen many old copper systems older than me 😂
Since switching to all aluminum coils I have had 4 coils out of a thousand installed with leaks. However, they were either factory welds or where lines were rubbing together. Moreover, we replace over 50 coils each year that are copper aluminum. The math alone tells the whole story. That is why I will not set systems with copper aluminum coils.
The old coils were subjected to formicary corrosion, incompetent engineers, bean counters, there are 40 year old g.e. still running today w.o. leaks . No lennox for me, the company has no integrity after doing something like this .stepping up to the plate is good for buisness. Lennox should have done this.
I was very vocal on the internet and Lennox threatened to sue me. At the time I was ready to go to court as this problem was still costing me thousands and pissing off all my customers. The just a few years later the group of lawyers that filed a class action against Lennox over these coils hired me to write up the costs associated with replacing coils out of warranty and in warranty. They used that to negotiate the settlement with Lennox.
Hi Zach, I would be interested if you have been finding leaks in goodman condenser coils. We have not seen this happening around here, but that doesn't mean that it isn't happening as we don't set as many Goodman as we used to. Let me know what you are finding. Thanks.
I have a Lennox AC Coil that is Rusting away. I'll never do business with that company again. I will also spend hours of my retired life, bad mouthing the company that sold me the bad equipment... These PUKE Companies, who prey on people with their planned obsolescence or planned deterioration, so to enjoy more business later, can go to Blazes... I'm gonna help them go broke...
That was why I helped the lawyers, can't really stand lawyers most of the time, but in this case it was needed. You know the manufacturers knew about this problem and ignored it because they thought it would make them more money. It is truly sad that large companies like this are not trying to do the best for their customers. Thanks for the comment, I just wish more people would get pissed like yourself.
They used copper tubing in their coils to get higher efficiencies, they could also thin the copper tubing, because it is stronger than aluminum and this also would increase heat transfer, and yes copper is easier to work with. However, they created the perfect storm. I believe that the one of the major causes of formicary corrosion is flow electrification. I researched this when it cam up and discovered that R410a, POE oil have a high capacity to hold a static charge. This charge is released in the coil as the refrigerant and the oil are turned to a vapor. This static charge release along with thinning the copper tubing hastens these leaks compared to copper aluminum coils of the past that had thicker walled tubing. In other words this would happen to those coils, only it took decades and not months or a few years. My whole problem with this is that the manufacturers knew of the problems with coils and continued to manufacturer them blaming it on the air in the home and not really delving any further. Thanks for the comment and yes I agree it was all about the money.
Hi Cory, most of these coils that are in the playlist we had the maintenance contract on them as we were the ones that installed the systems. At no time during their maintenance did we use coil cleaner on them, heck some were only a couple of years old and never needed to be cleaned. This excuse by the manufacturers to blame the air in the home is laughable, as some of these coils were installed on homes that the customer did no other remodel work or changed the cleaning supplies they used in the home, in addition their old system lasted 25 years with no problems. In other words the only thing that changed was the equipment itself. I still believe that flow electrification was a contributing factor in addition to the manufacturers thinning the copper tubing. I tried to get several universities here in California interested in taking this up as a masters thesis for some aspiring university student, but no one would take it up, formicary corrosion isn't sexy and/or leads to bigger and better things. I studied this intensely when it cropped up and that was my conclusions. However, the fix still stands, you need to switch to all aluminum coils. Since I have made the switch we have found a few leaking coils but they were all either bad factory welds, stress fractures or tubing rubbing together, no more corrosion. However, all aluminum coils are subject a myriad of other problems like being less efficient and in certain climates biological growth that can plug condensate pans and lines, below is a link to a Brian Orr video about it. However, in our area we don't see the growth issue. By the way check out my new video on Ultra Low NOx furnaces, I see these ULN furnaces as being the new problem, luckily they are only installed in California and not anywhere else, link below. ULN furnaces: ua-cam.com/video/pYAvLMWjuzQ/v-deo.html Elephant Snot: ua-cam.com/video/5VOffWjmWkk/v-deo.html
I see alot of manufactures who make aluminum coils where the bottom refrigerant line sits to low in the condensate pan causing it stay submerged in water. They always end up leaking there. I like Trane coils too because they are raised up higher out of the condensate pan and stay dryer. I think their best coil they sell is the MX series coils. They are pvc coated which prevent dirty sock syndrome and even has heat shrink around the capillary tubes. Great information in your video. Thank you.
I agree, coated coils are fine.
Outstanding review of a major issue for all HVAC techs. Thank you for this information.
Thanks for the comment.
Good video. I installed a Goodman unit with all aluminum coil (Daikin switched to all aluminum a number of yrs back) in 2022 and so far, so good, though I did have a TXV go bad. Ended up pushing me into an LPCO lockout due to freeze up from the coil out to the condensing unit. Crazy one little item going bad and what that can cause downstream.
I have same issue with my Lennox unit. Coil leak, undetectable without nitrogen test which I got years after the issue started. Thanks for the clarification on what is causing the issue. Was planning to go with Trane for the next one and this gives me added confidence.
Sorry to hear about your leaks, I do have a couple of questions, how old is your system and check to see if it actually is a Lennox coil? Be aware that many companies use 3rd party coils.
Outstanding video!! Thank you for answering so many questions ive had dealing with these leaking coils
Thank you so much for sharing this information! I really appreciate it! Very informative! I was never aware of Formicary corrosion! Wow!
Great Info, thank you. I actually thought that All Aluminum coils were inferior to copper/aluminum and that manufacturers had gone to aluminum to save money.
This was very helpful. Coil #3 on my 2011 Lennox Signature has now failed - at least that is the high indication without an overpriced leak test. My first Lennox was great. I replaced proactively at 10 years to the high efficiency. I wish I’d just kept it until it died but as you know in FL the last thing you want is for your A/C to die and you have to act hastily. Is the new Lennox Quantum cool any better? I was searching on that which is how I found this video.
Thanks for the comment. Just make sure they are all aluminum or tin plated. As for Lennox now, I gave them up and washed my hands of them back in 2010 when all the coils we found were leaking. We found too many problems with their equipment compared to everything else we were setting. So, not sure how good they are. Unfortunately, advertising does work as they spend more than any other company for ads and that is why they continue to operate.
Thanks for this... I own a AC co. and I just ripped out a copper coil today...
Let me know what brand please. Did you put the coil in a dunk tank to see where it was leaking from? Also check out my latest video on formicary corrosion. ua-cam.com/video/sHNF7SKU4Cc/v-deo.html
We replace all aluminum coils everyday. TAM Trane Evap leaks after a few months of install. We do closer to 3 k installs a year. Please don’t think your Trane unit won’t leak. I prefer the tinned coils.
I can only speak from our experience, we have over a 200 to 1 ratio of copper aluminum coils springing leaks compared to all aluminum. Although we don't set as many as you, about a 10th as many per year, it is still a 200 to 1 ratio.
In addition, since switching we have only had one or two all aluminum coils leak each year out of the hundreds we install,, and those were either bad factory welds or tubing rubbing together or against the case. I will grant that you have some coils that leak that are all aluminum, however, it no way compares to the copper aluminum leaks in units that we have found.
I friend of mine told me that works in the AC business, he has replaced more Lennox and Carrie coils in the last year than he can remember.
I found that it doesn't matter which brand, the catalyst was the copper tubing and aluminum fins create a anode-cathode circuit and starts eating away at the copper. However, I am no corrosion engineer but I firmly believe that there is some other contributing factors.
First, they thinned the copper tubing in order to get better heat transfer.
Second, they rifled the copper tubing to facilitate better refrigerant flow and heat transfer, while strengthening the copper tubing.
Third, we switched from R22 to R410a refrigerant, and R410a uses POE oil, a synthetic oil.
Fourth, I believe the corrosion was aided by a phenomenon called flow electrification. Flow electrification is the ability of a fluid to hold a static charge. I believe that the POE oil and the R410a refrigerant actually builds up a static charge as if flows through the copper tubing. Then as the oil and liquid refrigerant enters the evaporator coil and begins to boil off into a gas the static charge that was built up is released. This extra charge aids in the corrosion happening much quicker than it would naturally occur over time. Add in that the wall of the tubing is thinner and we have the perfect storm.
When this all began occurring I tried several science departments at several universities to see if one of them would take this up and see if my hypothesis was correct. However, the physics department said is was a chemistry problem and the chemistry department said it was a physics problem and it went nowhere.
That all being said, the true fix was to go to all aluminum coils, since switching I have only replaced about 3 all aluminum coils and those were from bad factory welds.
Thanks for the post.
@@baileysair thoroughly scientific approach. Thanks for sharing so much over social media.
Thank you this information. My Lennox just failed after 12 years. The replacement Ruud has all aluminum evaporator but has copper tube fin condenser. You didn't mention condensers. Do they have the same issues?
Hi, no the condenser coils don't have the same problems we have been running into on the evaporator coils. One of the big factors to cause this corrosion is that the evap coil gets wet. This moisture facilitates the corrosion. However, condenser coils usually are dry and so we don't see the leaks forming there. However, heat pump outdoor coils do run in the winter and they do build moisture, and ice on them. That being said, we do a few heat pumps, but we aren't replacing any coils, so I think the outside coil is safe.
I sure could use some advice. I live in NC and my 1st floor HVAC system and ductwork was replaced last fall with high efficiency Trane equipment. At the same time the crawl space was cleaned of mold and encapsulated with the space now conditioned by the HVAC system. It worked great through the winter and summer. Then in the fall we no longer saw the cooling cycle engage until two weeks back when it got hot. That's when the whole house smelled so bad we had to leave. A Trane tech performed a full pm on the furnace and exposed the aluminum AC coil. The coil looked clean. The tech said this did not smell like dirty sick syndrome. Everyone who has been consulted so far is stumped. Someone said it's the fault of the aluminum coil since it doesn't have the antimicrobial properties of copper. Any thought?
Aluminum Coils can produce a benign bacteria called Googlii. Since it has not anti Microbial properties like copper does. It can clog drain lines. ONe solution is to have a uv light installed in the evap coil. One brand is called "Bluetube". Or other product like an "Air crubber" or "I-wave C" can be installed and is suppose to help keep odors down and kill bacteria and viruses. Check it out and see if it helps.
I am in a FL costal environment and I have a Lennox XC21 compressor unit and garage mounted ceiling air handler that was installed in 2011. Thank goodness it had a 10 year parts and labor warranty. I had 3 coils replaced under warranty with the last coil replaced in 2019 during the pandemic. The last coil that was installed was an aluminum coil - I believe they market it as their Quantum coil. I did notice a significate increase in organic material build-up and my drain being clogged but so far the aluminum coil has been holding up. I know my system is reaching the end of it's useful life - in a coastal environment would you recommend a Trane system?
I switched to Trane because they had all aluminum coils, and yes I would recommend them. As for the organic build up, many call it elephant snot. Brian Orr of HVAC School.com has a video on it. He postulates that this recent occurrence of elephant snot was because we switched to all aluminum coils. The old copper tubing had properties that kept this from happening the same as using bottom paint for your boat that has copper in it to resist barnacles from growing. He went so far as to recommend putting a couple of pieces of copper in the drain pan to help prevent it from forming.
Here in California we don't get as much humidity so we don't have that much growth on our condensate systems. Below is a link to his video and my second video just recently that details my theory of what I believe is the real culprit.
ua-cam.com/video/5VOffWjmWkk/v-deo.html
studio.ua-cam.com/users/videosHNF7SKU4Cc/edit
I have a Carrier 24ANA Infinity using Puron refrigerant that was installed in Oct 2010. The coils code, CNPVP6124ATAABAA, started to rust after 4-5 yrs & are now severly corroded. No leaks yet, but replacement is recommended. I live in hot, humid Mphs, TN, so no AC is a no-go. I installed a UV-C in 2020, prepandemic, to reduce mold in the system & to help my asthma. Recommended replacement of other aging & worn components is estimated to cost $11k. Would you recommend parts replacement, including a new coil (aluminum, I hope)? Or would a full unit replacement be more appropriate? Thank you for your info & insight.
I would replace it now before R410a system are gone even though you might get another 5 years out of the old system.
I recommend you go with an all aluminum coil as you won't see the corrosion as you would see on a galvanized fin plates as they would be aluminum. You can insist on this from your contractor, make them put it in the contract.
Humidity is a problem with any brand of equipment. It would not hurt to save the UV system and have it installed on the new unit.
If you asthma and allergies I suggest you go with a Trane CleanEffects Whole Home Air Cleaner to capture what the UV doesn't kill.
You can always email me your proposal and I can look it over before you make a decision and give you some advice. baileysair@sbcglobal.net
Mitch
I was looking around for this issue. Last Friday we found out the Unit we purchased in late 2017 has the leaking problem. It will cost us $1000 to have them replaced. SO it appears that they are still selling units with defective coils. I'm very angry about this because I was never given the option for a different brand. I will NEVER get a Lennox again and will tell EVERYONE to avoid them like the plague. After additional research it appears that even if we get this one changed out, we may still have the same problem two years up the road because it will happen again. I wonder if they can be sued again. If this problem happens again on a new set, I will be finding a money hungry attorney to go after them.
Hello Josephine, sorry to see that you have a leaking coil. I would request that they give you an all aluminum coil if they make one for that unit or that they give you a tin coated coil. This would eliminate replacement of the coil down the road. If they can't give you either, you could have them send the coil out to be coated before they install it.
As for suing them again, not sure you can because they have already settled the case and that may have exempted them, of course I am not a lawyer, so you might try to see if someone will take it on contingency.
Just be aware that in the future when you need to replace your system, you will need an all aluminum indoor coil.
Good luck.
@@baileysair Thank you. I am currently reading your article about the corrosion and coils. It's very informative. I called the company we use for our bi-annual servicing. I asked them if the parts are failing and if they find that they have to replace them again. He would not answer the question, and he stated that he believes they are aluminum.( Which tells me he does not know) I assume that it will be obvious if they are aluminum when the part comes in. Thank you for the advice on having them coated. That will save me thousands up the road. It's insane that a company can settle a suit and not fix the problem. What was the coating I should ask for? Thank you! I learned something today.
@@enigma___ My pleasure. The coils may have aluminum fins and copper tubing, it is the copper tubing that is developing the leaks. What happens is that a cathode-anode reaction occurs between the copper tubing and the aluminum fins. All it needs is some moisture and any chlorides, acetates, and/or formaldehyde in the air to stick to the coil. The copper then gives up its ions and starts to corrode, eventually developing into a leak.
The worst part about this is that the manufacturers know about this issue and yet many of them continue to use copper/aluminum coils instead of all aluminum coils. Even Trane, the brand I switched too because they have all aluminum coils, still make some units that use copper aluminum. Of course, I refuse to use those units because of the formicary corrosion issue.
My advice is to make sure that the replaced coil is all aluminum, so that you are not doing this again in the near future.
Best of luck,
Mitch Bailey
thx for the facts💖.
much appreciated.
Got a question for you, is there a leak in your coil? Let me know your story. Thanks for the comment.
I need to have my copper-aluminum condenser coil replaced with an all aluminum coil. Will all of the connecting tubing need to be replaced with aluminum tubing to prevent new corrosion from forming?
Question, this is the condenser coil that needs replacing? I ask because we have not had a plethora of condenser coils that need replacing. Unfortunately, the condenser coil usually comes from the OEM and that will be what ever type they make them in, some like Trane are all aluminum, other brands are still mixed metal coils. However, you can have the whomever is replacing the coil send it off to be epoxy coated so this would not be a problem in the future. They usually do this when the coils is in a corrosive environment such as close to the ocean. This can be pricey, but the coil should then last the life of the system.
Homeowner: Got new 5 ton Trane installed 11/2016. Coil had to be replaced in two years. Had to pay for labor and refrigerant. Now 5 years later leaking again!
Told my warranty is good till 2026. Any recommendations? Should the warranty for at least the coil be restarted when it's replaced? Thanks.
Do you have a model number of the unit? Is is a split system or package? I can give you more information once I have the details. Thanks, Mitch
Is the A frame also aluminum?
I found this video while searching for possible explanations for why my A frame is severely rusting (Carrier, steel A frame, copper coils, ~12 years old). It seems like straightforwardly bad design.
Noted from your comments: Don't buy Carrier or Lennox. Consider Trane instead. (My mother's Trane heat pump still runs like a champ after 20+ years in Texas.)
What is your favorite Trane 2 ton?
Will 3% hydrogen peroxide, if applied to the aluminum evaporator coils cause formicary corrosion? There has been at least one HVAC forum post that claims regular store hydrogen peroxide will not cause corrosion. It is an effective method of killing mold and bacteria on the coils.
No, hydrogen peroxide applied to the coil will not cause the formicary corrosion, and yes it is a great sterilant and kills just about anything.
Thank you for answering and providing this very informative video. My Carrier vendor tech came to turn on my system he did not know what to do about the foul smell coming from the vents. I have been a bit frantic because after spraying the coils with hydrogen peroxide, which killed the smell, i thought some kind of chemical reaction occurred and i would need to replace my coil.i believe some kind of fumes were coming when the system was running. Very puzzling.
@@thomast9736 The fumes could come from the reaction of hydrogen peroxide with organic material on the coil that was causing the smell. We usually will mix a few teaspoons of bleach with a gallon of water and and a few table spoons of lemon juice to mask the smell. The bleach kills the mildew and mold on the coil and helps keep away the dirty sock syndrome. You could also install a UV light on the coil that will work 24hours a day killing anything that grows on the coil. This too will stop the smells.
Aluminum coils are junk....Goodman coils leak consistently...some right out of the box....as do so many other manufacturers... Years ago when G.E. made coils they lasted over 40 years. They used thicker copper and thicker aluminum fins...just as you said. They did however make the aluminum spined fin coil that was great...thick aluminum tubing that lasted for years! I still service some systems from the late 70's mid 80's still in service that have outlasted newer systems. Manufacturers simply make the coils thinner to make them CHEAPER...The manufacturer's put a nice spin on their reason to making thinner coils is in the consumers best interest to "save energy" ...but the real reason is because it saves the MANUFACTURER MONEY ....FOLLOW THE MONEY ! the thinner coils attribute to a marginal savings of energy versus the impact cost to the consumer to have to pay for a coil out of warranty. The EPA puts blame on the technicians and industry for venting refrigerant which destroys ozone or attributing to greenhouse warming gasses into the atmosphere....when the biggest issue is the manufacturers making junk coils which leak refrigerant into the atmosphere. The EPA should be on the manufacturers ass to make a refrigerant containment vessel that is worthy of protecting the environment...The manufacturers have deep pockets to hire lawyers to do otherwise...where as the average Joe consumer get's screwed. GREAT VIDEO... It's nice to see another fellow HVAC Contractor that recognizes the true issues with equipment quality.
I really haven't found many leaking aluminum coils since our switch. In fact, we won't do a copper aluminum coil because of formicary corrosion. Any of the aluminum coils we found with leaks were from the factory as bad welds or bad design with two pieces of tubing rubbing together, either way we just replace the coil, slide out the old one and install a new one under warranty.
I know you say follow the money, but this type of failure the manufacturer doesn't want either because it does cost them money. However, you are right in that they are making the tubing thinner to save on cost, but this also does make them more efficient.
If you really want to get into the weeds about follow the money, go back and look at who brought to the attention of the ozone problem and refrigerants at the Montreal Protocols. It was DuPont who owned the patent for R22 and R12. They said it was destroying the ozone so we need to ban the refrigerant, oh and lo and behold they were losing their patent for those refrigerants in 1999 so what better way to continue receiving billons of dollars in royalties by coming up with R134a and R410a. Yep follow the money!
Thanks for the comment.
@@baileysair thats very scary and sad that millions of people have worse products in their homes because of DuPont
What about white rust? I have seen aluminum rot right through due to white rust
Fortunately, we don't have a huge problem with moisture here in the Central Valley of California, so we don't see the white rust you are talking about. So, I can't speak to that problem, only what we have seen with Formicary Corrosion. Check out this information paper that ACCA gives to it's members about Formicary Corrosion. www.americancoolingandheating.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/What-Causes-Formicary-Corrosion.pdf
A manufacturer Can't double the pressure of refrigerant, Have thinner tubing and insufficient welding practices and not have leaks. I have a 30 year old evap coil and hasnt ever leaked yet
You do have a point, thinning the copper allows this corrosion to eat very quickly through the copper tubing. Your 30 year old coil was much thicker and will probably develop these same leaks only it will take decades and not years because of the thicker copper. Thanks for the comment and when time to replace use all aluminum or coated copper aluminum coil.
@@baileysair My company is a Rheem dealer. And we had a class on the systems. And I believe Rheem has doubled the thickness of the coil tubes. But made them 7mm instead of 3/8.
@@smacleod69 My whole problem with this is that the manufacturers knew this was occurring and turned a blind eye or blamed the air in the home and they knew what to do to fix this.
I had 800+ pissed off customers at me because of all the failures. In other words, my reputation suffered because these guys hid what was going on.
If you want to equate this to some things happening recently, take a good hard look at getting the Jab and all the health problems that occurred from that.
@@baileysair I understand. I had replaced about 40 evap coils in 2021. And lennox never fixed the problem. And alot of our customers were not happy.
@@baileysair That comment surely does not compute. Big loss of credibility there.
Problem is copper coils he is 100 percent correct it’s in tide , bleach , aerosol
Either way Aluminum cant hold pressure of R410a for long run 😀, just another way to low down the cost from manufacturing. I have seen many aluminum coil leaking and its hard to repair when the system containminated..I like the old day when they make copper so thick..I have seen many old copper systems older than me 😂
Aluminum coil is much more prone to leaking than copper coils
Since switching to all aluminum coils I have had 4 coils out of a thousand installed with leaks. However, they were either factory welds or where lines were rubbing together. Moreover, we replace over 50 coils each year that are copper aluminum. The math alone tells the whole story. That is why I will not set systems with copper aluminum coils.
i have had the same experience. rub through seems to happen easier
The old coils were subjected to formicary corrosion, incompetent engineers, bean counters, there are 40 year old g.e. still running today w.o. leaks . No lennox for me, the company has no integrity after doing something like this .stepping up to the plate is good for buisness. Lennox should have done this.
I was very vocal on the internet and Lennox threatened to sue me. At the time I was ready to go to court as this problem was still costing me thousands and pissing off all my customers. The just a few years later the group of lawyers that filed a class action against Lennox over these coils hired me to write up the costs associated with replacing coils out of warranty and in warranty. They used that to negotiate the settlement with Lennox.
Formicary corrosion, hello Goodman condenser coils.
Hi Zach, I would be interested if you have been finding leaks in goodman condenser coils. We have not seen this happening around here, but that doesn't mean that it isn't happening as we don't set as many Goodman as we used to. Let me know what you are finding. Thanks.
The copper u bends where they run into the aluminum plate leak on early to mid 2000s Goodman
@@zachosborne6577 I think those might be stress fractures and not formicary corrosion. Of course I could be mistaken.
I have a Lennox AC Coil that is Rusting away. I'll never do business with that company again. I will also spend hours of my retired life, bad mouthing the company that sold me the bad equipment... These PUKE Companies, who prey on people with their planned obsolescence or planned deterioration, so to enjoy more business later, can go to Blazes... I'm gonna help them go broke...
That was why I helped the lawyers, can't really stand lawyers most of the time, but in this case it was needed. You know the manufacturers knew about this problem and ignored it because they thought it would make them more money. It is truly sad that large companies like this are not trying to do the best for their customers. Thanks for the comment, I just wish more people would get pissed like yourself.
It all has to do with money. Not engineering. Coefficiency of aluminum is not as good as copper. And copper is easier to fix than aluminum
They used copper tubing in their coils to get higher efficiencies, they could also thin the copper tubing, because it is stronger than aluminum and this also would increase heat transfer, and yes copper is easier to work with. However, they created the perfect storm.
I believe that the one of the major causes of formicary corrosion is flow electrification. I researched this when it cam up and discovered that R410a, POE oil have a high capacity to hold a static charge. This charge is released in the coil as the refrigerant and the oil are turned to a vapor. This static charge release along with thinning the copper tubing hastens these leaks compared to copper aluminum coils of the past that had thicker walled tubing. In other words this would happen to those coils, only it took decades and not months or a few years.
My whole problem with this is that the manufacturers knew of the problems with coils and continued to manufacturer them blaming it on the air in the home and not really delving any further.
Thanks for the comment and yes I agree it was all about the money.
Never mentioned anything about the relation between coil cleaner and corrosion!
Hi Cory, most of these coils that are in the playlist we had the maintenance contract on them as we were the ones that installed the systems. At no time during their maintenance did we use coil cleaner on them, heck some were only a couple of years old and never needed to be cleaned.
This excuse by the manufacturers to blame the air in the home is laughable, as some of these coils were installed on homes that the customer did no other remodel work or changed the cleaning supplies they used in the home, in addition their old system lasted 25 years with no problems. In other words the only thing that changed was the equipment itself.
I still believe that flow electrification was a contributing factor in addition to the manufacturers thinning the copper tubing. I tried to get several universities here in California interested in taking this up as a masters thesis for some aspiring university student, but no one would take it up, formicary corrosion isn't sexy and/or leads to bigger and better things.
I studied this intensely when it cropped up and that was my conclusions. However, the fix still stands, you need to switch to all aluminum coils. Since I have made the switch we have found a few leaking coils but they were all either bad factory welds, stress fractures or tubing rubbing together, no more corrosion.
However, all aluminum coils are subject a myriad of other problems like being less efficient and in certain climates biological growth that can plug condensate pans and lines, below is a link to a Brian Orr video about it. However, in our area we don't see the growth issue.
By the way check out my new video on Ultra Low NOx furnaces, I see these ULN furnaces as being the new problem, luckily they are only installed in California and not anywhere else, link below.
ULN furnaces: ua-cam.com/video/pYAvLMWjuzQ/v-deo.html
Elephant Snot: ua-cam.com/video/5VOffWjmWkk/v-deo.html