HVAC 159 Why evaporator coils leak (Fixed)
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- Опубліковано 31 лип 2024
- Evaporator coils are a very common place to have refrigerant leaks but why?
(Last video cut off this one is corrected)
Several Causes we discuss in this video.
Evacuation and dehydration. When we don't pull a proper vacuum, moisture is left inside the lines. that moisture turns to acid especially with POE oil. the acid eats away from the inside out and even causes copper plating on the compressor and compressor failure.
Efficiency, as the government mandates higher efficacy manufactures come up with new ways to transfer heat.
One of those is riffling or internal grooving. this allows better heat transfer properties from the refrigerant to the copper. it allows the refrigerant to tabulate or spin increasing contact time but the grooves also allow a place for acids to eat away easier.
Second way is smaller tubbing and thinner copper. Thinner material means faster heat transfer and also savings for the manufacture but this has a higher likelihood of refrigerant leaks.
Electrolysis or more specific galvanic action where the very presence of dissimilar metals sets up a potential (or voltage) between two metals through an electrolyte (usually water). Copper, aluminum, galvanized metal, condensation and air movement all contribute to this on the evaporator coils.
Household chemicals. We have more chemicals in our homes than ever before. these chemicals react to the copper and start causing leaks form the outside in. There are two main forms of pitting corrosion found in indoor coils: (1) general pitting; and (2) formicary corrosion, sometimes called “ant’s nest” corrosion.
Common household substances that may contain chlorides include:
Air Fresheners, Aerosol sprays Carpeting, Paint removers Degreasing and detergent cleaners, Tub and tile cleaners Dishwasher detergents, Vinyl fabrics Laundry bleach, Vinyl flooring Fabric softeners, Wallpaper Pool/Spa Chemicals, Common household sources that may contain formic acid, formaldehyde, of formate include:
Building materials, Adhesives, Cabinets, Carpets
Countertops, Foam insulation, Laminates, Paints (latex and oil based), Paneling, Plywood, Particle boards, Cosmetics, Disinfectants and deodorizers, Tobacco and wood smoke
Typical household sources of acetic acid or acetate include:
Building materials, Adhesives, Cabinets, Carpets, Countertops, Foam insulation, Laminates, Paints (oil based), Paneling, Particle boards, Plywood, Silicone caulking, Wallboard, Wallpaper, Cleaning solvents, Vinegar
Improper maintenance
DO NOT PUT BLEACH IN THE AC DRAIN!!!! Copper is very corrosive and should not be used. They make products such as viper drain cleaner that uses enzymes and are not corrosive.
Improper Coil Cleaning procedures and chemicals. The cleaning adjent used is very hard on the evaporator coils and can cause leaks. the proper chemical must be used and that chemical MUST be completely rinsed off. It may take multiple tries and effort to rinse off al the chimerical.
Damage form screws, mishandling, shipping or even vibration.
Linkes and sourced of information and pictures used
Viper drain cleaner (NOT SPONCERED, NO AFFILIATION)
www.refrigtech.com/viper-pan-...
york talk leaks article
yorkcentraltechtalk.wordpress...
leak pictures and causes
www.centralairsys.com/coilCorr...
Air fresheners chemicals
ehs.umass.edu/air-fresheners-....
www.sciencedirect.com/science...
www.madesafe.org/toxic-chemic...
www.poison.org/articles/air-f...
coil cleaning products cause corrosion permatron.com/prevent-install...
www.cdc.gov/nceh/publications....
Kristi Ohr air freshners
ehs.umass.edu/air-fresheners-....
Copper corrosion
www.goodway.com/hvac-blog/201...
Copper tubing size
www.racplus.com/features/redu...
copper groves
www.copper.org/applications/p...
hvac-talk.com/vbb/threads/275...
class action lawsuits
www.classaction.org/air-condi...
classactionsreporter.com/good...
www.clg.org/Class-Action/List...
www.evaporatorcoillawsuit.com...
www.classlawgroup.com/hvac/
The conclusion I've come to here is; if you're going to own a home,,go to HVAC school if at all possible. 😊
Or be an accomplished DIY'er and build on those skills. Got to repairing automotive AC systems years ago, all the way back to R-12. Then moved to a home with AC 17 years ago and I learned about contactors and capacitors and a whole lot more as I interacted with neighbors getting service or replacements. Moved into my current home in 2016 with a 1975 Rheem heat pump. Lots of poking around and found out that the outside unit had been replaced along the way, it was "only" 18 years old.
So everything is fine until May 2023. No cooling. Threw the gauges on, low on R-22. It took a LOT of poking around to find the leak....in one of the evaporators. That's right, this has two compact evaporators stacked in the air handler. Even overlooking the fact that Rheem would not have these sitting around in a warehouse anymore, you could not remove them without cutting both copper and (two) PVC drain lines with a reciprocating saw. Also took a Dremel tool and two tube cutters. I am convinced that the air handler was assembled before the drywall was put on the walls of the air handler closet. There is NO way it could have been installed just from the front.
Did my research and got a 3 ton heat pump N coil evaporator rated for R-410a that would physically fit in my space. Nice to have that 410a pressure rating if I have to replace the outside unit. Yeah, it took a lot of work to R&R the evaporators, many hours of research, make a new base plate, sweat all the connections with silver solder, connect to the drain line, etc. etc.
The bottom line is that someone who learned skills over a long period of time can do impossible things. Oh yeah, the internet was a partner in this endeavor. No way could I have done the research I needed years ago.
Yes, I claim bragging rights for the "impossible" DIY AC project!
Our Gavilán College Students appreciate You & Your transfer of knowledge, Mr. Branaman.
Thank You, Kind Sir!
Expansion and contraction. That's why coils leak. Thinner walls on the copper coils by manufacturers to save money are the primary reason coils leak.
Expansion and contraction leaks is typically found on the condensor tube sheet specifically where the cot gas line enters the condensing coil at the tube sheet. Vibration is the main culprits of condensing coil leaks.
As for evaporator coil leaks, saving money is one of the many reasons.
Manufacturers can't freely choose coil thickness, it's all determined by the safety regulations, UL standard.
@@royappa Yeah, they can. 😄 UL provides a MINIMUM. They could always go thicker. They have the test results-- they know how/why these leaks occur and how best to prevent them. They just don't go thick cuz they're permitted to be cheap.
@@royappa And the laws of physics.
So many leaks develop where the tubing penetrates the steel plate. I have imagined that this was often due to, over time, the expansion and contraction of the different metals - not only from every day on/off cycling of the cooling or heating modes - but also the seasonal difference of heating and cooling modes (warm air being blown over the coil in winter and cool air blown over the coil in summer). Informative video, thanks.
As always, great stuff Ty...Thanks for all you do in our industry sir..
Thank you Joe!
Hair & nail salons, the environment that eats coils and heat exchangers (electrolysis at its worst). Great video👍, I couldn’t agree with you more.
Regards from St. Louis and go Cardinals⚾️
The Nail Salons are the worst!
Really informative. Answered a lot of questions I had. Thanks for making this!
Excellent summary. Thanks!
Very good explanation . Thank you!
Bleach is an excellent cleaner and initial stripper for mold and mildew slime in the pan. We practice 1 cup of bleach followed by 1 pitcher of hot water to flush the concentrated bleach out of the drain line. Only use this in the cooling season so condensate will also ensure flushing of bleach residue and prevents critters from trying to enter the line. We use alkaline coil cleaner on coils, which is way more harmful but it gets the coil to that new starting point, with the understanding it has to be rinsed off. Bleach does the same job with the drain line. This is just another point of view. Your video covers some excellent points that need to be shared.
Thank you
Give viper a try
"
Viper Condensate Pan and Drain Treatment is a sprayable gel that contains enzymes and silicone detergents. The enzymes are natural biological disruptors that will penetrate and break through the solid layers of slime, sludge and sediment. The silicone detergents coat the pan, p-trap and drain piping with a lubricative film to improve flow and prevent future soil adhesion. The slow dissolving gel will outperform and outlast conventional tablets and strips."
Thanks man, you anwered almost my questions...this is the content i want, useful information..
Thank you so much, some information I wasn't aware of.
Awesome to the point info. Thank you so much
Really good info! Thanks for sharing!
Thank you
Very very educational. Thx. 🙂
Way back in the day Carrier made an all aluminum coil in their air handlers that used compression connections on the refrigerant lines. Coils were slant style and built like tanks. Never found one that ever leaked. As time went on, Carrier and other manufacturers decided that they needed to build some obsilencense into their coils so they started making them out of copper, steel and aluminum. They knew the rust and electrolysis would occur but it meant they would sell more coils. Cut down production cost and sell more equipment. What's not to like for a money hungry beast? Everything built today is built cheaper and more flimsy then ever yet they charge a premium for it. Welcome to Capitalism 101.
I remember those all aluminum slant coils! GE and later Trane had the all aluminum condensor that early leaked also. Aluminum can be good if done right.
Planed obsolescence is alive and well for sure.
In the other hand, look at how many big AC companies only sell units and don't fix anything. Bad capacitor, new unit, bad contactor new unit.think of how many good units where replaced with something cheaper.
Too few people/companies are looking at proper airflow and building envelope. Just replace the appliance with another.
I think another really big driving factor is government regulations. With the new refregerants at much higher pressure with an oil that turns to an acid. Who thought that would be a good idea?
The mandated energy efficiency ratings are driving a lot of the thinner coils and coil grooving also.
It's a soup for disaster.
The EPA is all about not venting refregerant but they allow manufactured to sell leaking coils.
🤷
Thats bold dishonest corporatism brother.... the issue isnt capitalism... get it through your socialist skull.
Carrier did some crazy things on a few of their coils. I remember that I removed one leaky Carrier coil and it had some sort of galvanized plating to seal the copper tubes. The replacement coil was a standard copper coil with brazed joints and never leaked after I installed it.
@@dgapp76 , Monopoly / crony capitalism >basically equals the same thing.
Well if anyone does a legitimate research on most of the major problems that we all see clearly in today’s world, definitely links to GREED
Yikes again, i've made some of those mistakes, just as a homeowner. Thanks!!
All of my couplers seem glued…what else could I do? Carrier Unit is upstairs. It also has a foam wrapped around pvc kinda like a noodle. I wish I can attach a photo. Oh and the coil completely black. When I moved in this place the closet the carrier unit is in was completely covered with dust, walls, ceiling and slats on the door. It was absolutely disgusting. Also a wrong size AC filter was smashed in where the correct size should be. I used a snake in the pvc drain pipes and the crap I pulled out was so disgusting and hard for to stomach. I’ve used a shop vac and do not know what else to do. Is there anyway I can email you?
Wow《☆》Lots of good info Ty👍🛎I replaced the Fan motor in my Air handler recently. I thought the old motor was emitting a smoky smell in my house. The smell is still being generated with the new motor. I checked for R22 leaks with a sniffer. The only time any leak is detected is when the compressor is running. I didn't think R22 would smell smokey or smell at all. I guess it's a combination of being 20 years old & maybe the compressor is burning up internally ? Thanks for any advice Brother🖖😎☮
Just a thought, do you often burn candles? Candles produce a lot of soot. A wet coil is a very efficient filter. Smokey smell? A somewhat wild guess.
Excellent and informative! Thank you for this. So is there a way to prevent leaks? Some of my units are facing the sea, is it a good idea to spray corrosion protection on them? I do suspect most of my leaks come from the inside out though due to bad repair techs. Thanks!
Coastal units do not last as long. Even with corrosion protection everything metal rusts out.
As for corrosion protection, it needs to be HVAC specific as some slow heat transfer.
It's getting more and more difficult to find skilled techs today. Between private equity companies just trying to sell and untrained new techs it's been challenging.
I had a conversation just yesterday where a guy thought it was a good idea to leave capacitors in the box.
Evaporator copper coils from the 70's weighed 3 times more than any new one now .
I have an all aluminum carrier coil from the early 80's that's lighter than a new one I have.
Hi! My ac condensator is dripping water only the half bottom of it. Ac still working perfectly, the problem is that if I leave it running for a long time the coil freezes up and builds up ice and then blocks the air from coming out of the vents... My ac is on a Condominium where cooling towers are used. What can I do to stop the leaking? Thanks in advance!
I have a video "why does an AC freeze"
Sounds like the drain line and drain pan is clogged up.
Your going to need to have someone come out for that.
Hey great video
At 4:08 where can one find that article? Is there an HVAC magazine I’m not aware of? =D thanks!
I’d love to get that too!
Hey Ty, thanks for the great information as always!
Anything else to watch out for on all aluminum coils? Been coming across a lot of leaks so far this season, on new systems. Not a good start!
Aluminum coils are pretty easy to fix but the bigger issue is they clog up very easy if someone don't braze with nitrogen flowing.
I use solderweld aluminum rods and a lot less heat.
Bryan Orr (HVAC school) and Craig (AC Service tech) both have great videos on fixing aluminum coil.
Some people even use epoxy.
I am a long ways away from making aluminum repair videos.
@@love2hvac Much appreciated! Thanks for your time.
I installed my coil using StayBrite8 low temp solder. No need for a nitrogen purge at the lower soldering temps.
@@picklerix6162 it handles higher pressure but they don't tell you that it doesn't handel vibrations as well and the very high risk of flux entering the refregeration system can cause much more damage.
Several manufactures specify against it and some city and state codes also do not also its use in HVAC
So what should be used to service the drain line if not bleach? And.what product should be used to clean the evap.coils?
VIPER
PAN & DRAIN TREATMENT
It uses enzymes to clean.
Viper also makes a variety of safe cleaners to be matched with the job.
It's made by Refrigeration technologies and the founder is a really smart guy that wanted to make better products.
I had two techs tell me that the coils were rusting and needed to be replaced. Copper does not rust. The galvanized metal supporting the coils does rust because of contact with the copper, galvanic corrosion., my understanding. From my YT searching it seems a lot of home hvac systems just need basic maintenance for a long life. Replace filters as recommended, stick with as low a merv as you can. Clear out the condensate drain. I have a system with a very slow refrig. leak. The techs told me that R22 is nearly impossible to find and very expensive. They must be recovering a lot of R22 with all the new systems they are installing so that didn't quite make sense to me. They wouldn't show me exactly where the leak was but it seems its at the Piston connection? sticky residue there.
Rust alone does not cause any leak it's just a sign of aging. I have seen units without rust leaking and units 30 years old rusted without leaking.
Without knowing where the leak is at I can't direct you one way or another.
I can say R22 is very expensive and hard to find. In 1987 we knew it was going to be eliminated and since 1992 every tech had to take an exam knowing to recover and it was not going to be manufactured after 2020. Yet systems where still installed up to 2015 :( a lot of techs do not recover the refregerant, they just cut the lines and let it into the atmosphere. They even brag about this on forums. 🤦 If they did recover we would have more to use now.
Options:
If it is a small leak a company can still find and use R22 and top it off. It is not illegal to add refrigerant to a leaking unit.
2 find the exact leak location and evaluate it's potential to be repaired.
3 convert the unit to an alternative refrigerant. There are many replacement options that work in R22 units.
4 replace the evaporator coil and use alternative refrigerant. (Right now parts are hard to get for older units)
5 you can try a leak stop additive. Some people swear by it, some say they don't work at all.
6 replacement: but wait.
This is a big step and should be done properly, it's one of the biggest investments of your home.
A blower door test should be performed to find the leak rate and any air sealing should be done to seal those holes first.
The blower door test will give the numbers needed to go with a manual J heat load calculation. If a contractor says Sq ft per ton run! Most systems are oversized and makes the house uncomfortable and use more energy.
After manual J a manual S should be performed to find the right equipment to handle the latent and sensible heat load. Just because it's a "2ton" does not mean it will work the same!
After blower door, J and S a manual D should be done to properly size the duct system. Ductwork is ESSENTIAL to a properly operating system and is often undersized and too much static pressure for new systems. After that is determined then you can have the new properly sized system I stalled for years of operation.
Companies make the most $ on selling new units but if it's not going to be done right it might be better to just keep repairing the one you have.
You'll be able to find a tech that can fix the leak. Also there is a r22 replacement out there
Dang! I think putting bleach down the drain line corroded my coil. Never thought it was a problem if the bleach wasn't in direct contact with the coil, but I guess the fumes are enough. My system is 6 years-old; can I have only the coil replaced?
Never use Bleach or vinegar on the drain line instead buy Nu calgon pan treatment tablets..
Manufacturers promote videos that blame technicians and homeowners. Just like they did with ecm motors and I was the biggest player in proving them wrong that everyone needed to suddenly change their ductwork out. My background is 36 years experience and teach it worldwide. Things are built cheap with cheap thin metal and built to fail. Period....so understand that.
Preach brother 🙌
How is your evacuation procedure done?
Since I listed class action lawsuits against manufacturers for coil leaks I'm pretty sure no manufacturer is going to promote this video.
I did list multiple fact based reasons so it's not just one thing. #neverstoplearning
@@love2hvac ....no worries my friend. You did give multiple reasons I agree. I'm guilty if I teach and stay out of the field to long I start to loose touch with real world issues so I try to investigate instead of buying into deception and believing everything I think sometimes. Love what you do of course and thank you for educating these future call backers 😃.
The gentleman mentioned "pulling a proper vacuum" a few times in the video. Does anyone know particularly what that means? Ty in advance for any assist
When a system is installed.
When the Refrigerant lines are brazed, nitrogen should be flowed through the lines to prevent oxidation and keep moisture out. The system should be pressure tested with nitrogen for leaks. The nitrogen should be vented. Then a vacuum pump should be attached and the system pulled down well below 500 microns, (200 ideal) of vacuum. The removes contaminants and also drops the boiling point of water so it will turn to a vapor and be pulled out of the system by the pump. The installer should then perform a decay test where the unit is valves off from the pump. The microns should hold below 500 I er 20 minutes to ensure there is no moisture still in the system turning to a vapor.
This is a proper vacuum or a proper dehydration.
So even rinse free cleaners should be rinsed?
Most of the no-rinse products are alkaline cleaner.
It's relying on condensation to rinse itself off.
Yes it needs to be rinsed even though it's easier to get off than non rinse.
A company in NY used this as maintenance on ductless units until they had leaks on all the ones they used it on.
Please advise. My air handler has this problem, water dropping off the coil. Unit is only 3 years old. The dripping has been going on for the last 2 years out of the 3. My AC installer said Trane will write off the coil as a warranty write off, but the installer wants $2,500 to do the switch out and advised against doing the swap because the water droplets are being dried by the fan. Thanks for any input!
When water is dripping off the coil it is usually from dirt in the coils or damaged coils. Sometimes with duct or arrow issues water can be pulled off the coil into the blower cabinet and drip down from there.
@@love2hvac thanks for the info, I will look into it.
Those micro crack leaks are caused by formicary corrosion, that you show here, but should mostly be eliminated with the new aluminum on aluminum coils.
That is what they say about every half assed attempt they make at designing a coil that lasts one week past the warranty
What if the inside under that coil is completely covered in dust and black and mold? Can it be removed and cleaned and put back in?
Yes it can. Viper makes a safe chemical to use. A proper vacuum must be pulled when reinstalling.
Don't go on price go for best process
Help! The first Mortex evaporator coil in my home heat pump split unit had about a 12 year life when it sprang an unrepairable leaked and had to have the whole system replaced (compressor was fine) because it used R-22 that was unavailable. Assuming the coil always received meticulous care and a 6" fresh air intake nearby to dilute indoor air chemicals (no home chemicals are sprayed in the air), how long can I expect an indoor coil to last? My second unit uses the same evap coil, is 10 years old and uses 410a that's being phased out similar to R22. Does a home owner have to replace his whole heating and cooling system (Big $$$) every 12 years? Something just doesn't sound right!! Any advice appreciated.
R22 is still available but expensive. alternative refrigerant are available to replace 22 in R22 systems.
Coils made for 410 will also work with R22.
Manufactures, often price evaporator coils very high so the price of an entire unit looks plausible.
Air conditioning companiesake most of their money selling equipment. Supply houses aka wholesalers makes most of their . Ony on selling new equipment. Manufactures make all their money on selling new equipment. With the skilled trade shortage and high cost of training, plus the good ole bottol line has leveraged the industry to sell vs replace.
Much of the industry has been behind the AIM Act that will push everyone to yet another refregerant. The industry as a whole has profited greatly on the R22 HCFC phase out. So if they phase out R410A, all those existing customers will meet another new unit with new refrigerant. The new refregerant is still being cleared on state and local codes but 410A is already being phased down driving the cost up.
Copeland builds and tests their compressors to last at least 20 years. But hiw much more money can the industry make if you had to buy a new one every 10-12?
There are companies that train to sell a new unit if the old one is over 8 years.
I don't see a change coming any time soon.
A coil made for 410a will work with r22 without modification?
The TXV will need to the correct refrigerant but the coil itself needs no modification.
Modifications will be if it will fit in the same cabinet as the old one or not.
@love2hvac thank you! We don't need no stinkin txv! Piston all the way. Nothing to fail that way
Actually a piston is more likely to reduce the life of a compressor.
Example customer keeps the house at 72⁰F at 50%RH that's a wet bulb of 60⁰F
That means if the outdoor temperature was above 91⁰F you would have liquid floodback to the compressor. That washes the oil away from the bearings and caused long term compressor damage. It doesn't happen right away but it definitely affects the life if the compressor.
TXV are the most misdiagnosed component in the refrigeration system. Most people think a TXV control suction pressure but it does not. It only controls Superheat.
Improper airflow is the #1 cause, charge #2 and refrigersnt restriction is #3
The ones that actually fail are from improper installation such as over heating at install. It damages the diaphragm and won't go bad right away but it will cause premature failure. Another is no flow of nitrogen when brazing and the oxidation clogs them up.
Often times a filter drier is restricted and not allowing enough refrigerant to the TXV. When the tech replaces the filter drier with the TXV it starts working so they assume it's the TXV.
The Bad TXV started in the early 2000's when a compressor manufacturer was using a rust inhibitor that reacted with POE oil to cause the oil to gum up. This causes the TXV to stick. Because soany TXV where replaced people just assumed it was the TXV. In reality it was the oil additive from the compressor manufacturer. There were multiple lawsuits related to this.
So those people just told the new people "TXV are bad" and the new techs just believed it without knowing why.
Fact is a TXV will operate better than a fixed office. The TXV has been around longer than the fixed orifice.
If we could get installers to follow the installation instructions, and techs to understand the system as a whole nobody would be using fixed offices.
Recommendations on how to feasibly clean coil? Pump down and pulling coil out seems very intrusive.
#1 A properly installed filtration system should never need a coil clean.
#2 if the coil gets dirty, pull the coil and clean it. While it is out install a proper filtration system since the hard part of removing refrigerant and cutting the lines is already done.
#3 cleaning it in place. This is risky
A: easy to damage the fins
B: unlikely to get the build up inside and in between the fins
C: It's almost impossible to get enough volume of water to accurately remove cleaner. That will eat away at the coil
D: risk of getting water and cleaner on the customers floor and in the return air.
E: difficult and in some cases just not possible to access in place.
It can be an shorter term option just depends on the scenario.
Pull and clean also has risks.
A: Is the tech going to seal all the lines once they are cut open?
B is the tech going to use a proper cleaner that won't damage the coil?
C: is the tech going to do the multiple rinses to remove all the cleaner?
D: is the tech going to braze while flowing nitrogen?
E. Is the tech going to replace the filter drier?
F. Is the tech going to do a proper pressure test?
G is the tech going to pull down to a proper vacuum with decay test?
H is the tech going to charge without contamination of air or with his/her old hoses.
I: is the tech going to reuse the refregerant? If is the tank clean and oil free vacuumed down before using and filtered into the tank and a new filter back out .
J is the tech going to properly connect the drain, flush it, and refill the trap with water?
K is the tech going to properly check airflow, superheat and subcooling?
When people want a coil clean they look for the cheapest price. With something as complex and important you want the best and you want the problem fixed so it never has to be done again.
@@love2hvac wow, i truly appreciate you taking the time to reply and detailed reply at that. You’re awesome. Is over 0.1” DP across coil good indication that it dirty? What is normal DP for residential coil.
Typical pressure drops for residential coils can vary from .1 to .4" WC. If the pressure drop in in excess of .3"wc, inspect the coil for dirt or other blockage.
@@love2hvac Thank you awesome sir.
@@love2hvac No Big company will give a Technician enough time to do all those steps, not when they are backed up with calls.
what causes a "whistling" sound coming from my indoor unit?
There is air leak between metal sheets . Try to find an air leak from your evaporator box …
So you are basically saying that evaporator coils will fail no matter what.
what do you think about steam cleaning coils with water?
When done right, it has benefits but it's not easy
Good information 👍
But, no leeks recipes???😂
Honestly I don't think I have even eaten one. 😂 I only know they exist because I was fixing a reach in vegetable cooler with them there.
Don't forget to add double the pressure as previous refrigerants
Your right I should have I included that.
Or more than double. R12 was very low.. almost a Vacuum in lower temp systems. I have an old dehumidifier and it uses a solid aluminium evaporator coil and R-12 and it probably outlasted the previous owner.
But I thought dryer receiver takes away all the moisture? No moisture around to do any damage.
A drier receiver combo is only used in automotive.
In HVACR the filter drier and receiver are separate. The receiver is primarily used in commercial applications.
The amount of moisture a drier can hold is very small. Once we pull a vacuum down below 500 microns and let it hold for a decay test, still leaves moisture we cannot easily get. The filter drier will hold that small amount of moisture that we cannot get out after the correct steps are taken.
When those steps are not done, the filter drier capacity is quickly extended and it cannot do it's job leaving the moisture to turn quickly into acid.
Many people think if the filter drier is at moisture capacity it will have a temperature drop but that is not true. The filter drier can be full of moisture and not restricted by particulate matter.
The rumor of a filter drier catching the moisture has been used for a while so techs feel better about cutting corners. Education is important to the facts come into play so best practices can be applied.
@@love2hvac so why then not include a more robust drier system if the ones current are not satisfactory.
The driers would have to be extremely large, and expensive.
It's better that professionals just follow the installation instructions with the proper tools and skills required by the trade.
In my opinion many leaks occur on the tube sheet from poor coil construction (manufacture).
Thank you sir!
🥃🥃🍺🍺🍺🏠
Stay safe.
Un-retired(werk'n)keyboard super tech.
Wear your safety glasses!
Unretired?
See the trade needs you!
@@love2hvac I'm selling real estate in nj.
🤣
After 35+ years I'm trying something new.
Also some hvac!🙄🤣🤣
Trying something new keep you young! I think it's awesome! #never stop learning!
@@love2hvac thank you!
They leak because they are made out of aluminum and or copper foil, Dissimilar metal joints dont help either.
Many more coils failing today than ever. Tells me they are very poor quality. Replaced mine at 4 yrs. that is B.S.
Seems like the new ones are leaking even worse than the leaky ones.
Yeah 5 years old 3 t Trane and evaporator coil leaking.
My Trane evaporator coil leaked out all the refrigerant. It's going to cost me 1400 in labor to replace and it's only 2 years old!
@@AC130eng $1,400 for 3hrs work is also a rip off That is almost $500.00 an hr. A new car dealer shop rate $125.00 hr and they have a lot more overhead In my area they are charging $1,600.00 hr. That is why so many people are putting in mini splits and doing it themselves. For what these guys charge for a system that is poor quality junk it is a total rip off.
1st the evaporator coil should not leak that soon. Manufacturing defect.
2nd that price
A: parts/supplies
In that $1400 that also includes non warrantied parts such as filter driers, brazing rods, vacuum pump oil that has to be changed, copper couplings and refrigerant. The manufacturer only warranties the coil itself and excludes these other supplies needed to do the job. That is anywhere from $200-$500 depending on availability and markup.
B: labor
That is usually a 4-5 hr flat rate job. Similar to auto techs, a technician does not get punished for having the tools and skills to do the job faster.
C: overhead
You said an auto shop had more overhead than an AC tech. I disagree with that. AC companies have to maintain a physical location with a mobile shop bing a fleet of vehicles and a large inventory.
The cost of fuel alone is very expensive to move the heavy vans/trucks filled with tools and parts in constant stop and go traffic. (Combined with paying a technician for drive time)
If that's not enough, commercial vehicle insurance is an extreme cost on top of standard business liability, and workman's comp.
The vehicles have a limited amount of drive time, repairs and maintanance before they become worn out and have to be replaced. The cost of replacing a service vehicle is more than the cost of my first home. Each van has to be equiped with specialty tools some by the tech and others by the company. The overhead is usually much more than an automotive shop.
$1400
Say 400 for refrigerant copper, vac pump oil, filter driers 15% silver solder.
1000 labor and overhead / 5 flat rate houers = $200/hr
Considering there is a skilled tech shortage across the country that is not out of line. Tech should be making $55/hr then insurance, benefits, holidays, pto, that does not seem out of line.
For some areas this could be cheap and for others this could be expensive as cost vary greatly from city and state.
They should have given you a price ahead of time for you to approve. If you knew the cost, you could acepet it or find someone cheaper. It's accept of deny.
If they did not tell you the cost then slaped you with a bill them that's on them.
There’s nothing wrong with using a diluted bleach solution in a drain line. I never poured the solution into the coil drain pan and always flushed with cold water afterwards.
You can do what you want but even diluted bleach ABSOLUTELY 100% is a big problem.
Do what you want it it does cause damage. Beach is not for any part of an HVAC system anywhere.
🇺🇸💪👍❄
Fruits and vegetables that are acidic in refrigeration definitely causes evap leaks.
100% the fruits and vegies. For some reason grill chicken but I can't figure out why.
Cheap manufacturing as usual is the main problem with any modern product…….. I have a 1978 evaporator coil in a Lennox unit…….. that will never happen on a modern unit lol
Todays units are so bad I feel people are being scammed.
They are being scammed by the manufacture selling low quality equipment but also the contractor that is not properly sizing the equipment and the duct system. Most units in America are oversized with undersized horrible duct systems. They are also being scammed by builders who built leaking houses and place the unit in unconditioned attics.
It's time for change in manufacturing, home building, sales and installation
Holy smoke, this was suggested and i said, i'm putting in a new system. why would i worry about leaks in my coil. Oh i see. that's way all mini-splits require 500 micron evacs, triple broken with nitrogen. to ensure moisture is removed. taddy digest has come across lots of mini-split indoor unit leaks. He was more so thinking the VOC inside the living space was eating copper. I'm more thinking your logic about the rifling and moisture. DIY or buddy may treat a system like the old r-22 residential tanks that last for 30 years no problems. Vs these mini-splits high efficent ones and say oh just go until my analog gauge says 30 inHg. i'm about to do a change out with an inverter setup forced air ducted system. I'm glad i've opted for digital gauges. sman one with micron. Should i get a separate micron gauge on the opposite side of the vac too? or is the sm480v ok for this.
Yikes you mention the VOC's too. Good info. thanks
I thought it was because r410a pressure is double the r22
R22 coils leaked too.
Older 410A coils did not leak as bad 20 years ago
@love2hvac maybe they just wanna make it so it doesn't last forever lol. Cuz I do everything I can to insure perfect install but it still leaks. Like 20% of the install before 10 years is up. Is always where the copper meets the aluminum
My ac technician would put a cup of bleach in my drain line to unclog it. He said for maintenance
Nooooooooooooooo
#1 Planned obsolescence
Bottom line copper is to thin. Ad $5 to the 10k price for thicker copper.
Onece moisture bonds with POE oil, it cannot be removed by pulling any vacuum, good, bad, or average. A vacuum does not reverse the chemical change of water bonding with POE oil. You can always eliminate the possibility of a system containing acid with an acid test and an acid cleanup. Most coils have leaks due to corrosion, and the fact that coils have either less copper or thin aluminum construction today. I have removed 35 year old coils with no leaks, and five year old coils WITH leaks, both using mineral oil. You draw your own conclusions from that.
designed to be replaced frequently
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If these money hungry American companies didn’t use tin-foil thick copper and aluminum in their coils, leaks would never occur. Most of the American made stuff nowadays is garbage. Buy Daiken, Bosch or Mitsubishi if you want something that lasts.
Why evap coils leak
Because trane
And Carrier, and York, And Goodman, and Lennox
Manufacturer defects that cause class-action lawsuits is another reason.
Cheap Copper Period
You can have coil made for just about any manufactured cabinet with the copper thickness and fin thickness you choose. You can even choose the fins to be made of aluminum, copper or stainless steel.