This channel is one of the most interesting and informative in the world of experimental aviation. Plus your wife, the dogs, and all the great people you serve and have on here with you. Loved seeing all the values of the sensors as you adjusted your engine speed and climb and decent. It takes a little while to get to know all the normal and expected numbers under different conditions
What you speak Jan, is the absolute truth. Zenith Aircraft makes it easy to choose what you want and they work with great power plant companies like Viking. Without a doubt the Viking engine will be my power plant one day!
I'm most impressed the "lower" and gearbox can take a full 30 inches at 4000rpm without a fuss. High manifold low rpm was a wive's tale in classic recips. ESPECIALLY in cruise. But with the low displacement and a gearbox, I'd be more inclined to let it run out. Seeing and hearing it sing along at a meager 4000 rpm is very compelling. I'm not bashing Rotax at all, but I wouldn't run a 9 series less than 4800 from my limited experience in them. It feels weird when you start loading up the engine. Maybe it's me. Maybe it's harmonic balancing. I'm not sure. But they sound uncomfortable at lower rpm above 23". This was a very infomational video.
its all about metalurgy and maintenance. i have a 1990 Honda CBR 1000 F with 65,000 miles of operation at high rpm and the compression, and lifter and timing chain wear are still facyory fresh
I found this video very educational, especially the flying part looking at the digital info display. I’m still a steam gauge person, this is the first time I’ve ever seen the newer stuff actually working. I’m curious about your engine rpm controlling, I’ve never seen a digital device like you are using here at the higher rpms. This looks like a nice airframe/engine combination. Thanks for taking the time to make and present this.
Pretty sure this has a variable pitch prop so the 'device' you're referring to is the prop RPM controller. Notice the throttle is full in the whole time and as the requested RPMs go down the manifold pressure goes up.
If I were building any airplane, I would be looking hard at Viking. It just make so much a lot of since. I just wish Zenith made a high wing plane that was similar to s21 in cruse speed.
The main inefficiency in a traditional aircraft engine is the very low compression ratio. That is one of the key efficiency determinants in an internal combustion engine. Even leaned optimally, I would think the Honda would still have a 5-10% fuel efficiency advantage over a Lycoming or Continental.
Yes you are right, The fact that the Honda engine is ALWAYS optimized would make it use less fuel for the same flight. Also, since we live in a world where some are very concerned in regards to the environment, it is theoretically possible to fly with as minimum of tail pipe emissions. Maximum engine efficiency, lowest noise and best propeller efficiency is with a variable propeller set for low rpm and maximum manifold pressure. A condition difficult to duplicate with a traditional engine without serious detonation.
@@eggenfellner Great performance for sure! 92% of the top speed of the IO-340, with 84% of the horsepower, equivalent weight, and half the engine cost! I'd say that's a win for the customer! Well done! Question on the video though. I may have missed it in the video, but I think Kathy has the VIP prop controller installed. Did you use the prop controller at all in the video? Or was that performance data with a "simulated" fixed prop configuration?
In the lower right of the video I do use it when changing RPM, performance is similar with fixed pitch/ground adjustable - other than that, the lower RPM/High manifold pressure numbers would not be attainable. So basically, cruise RPM would be slightly higher.
@@eggenfellner Thanks for clarifying. Exactly as would be expected. Slightly better climb performance and slightly better cruise performance since you don't need to find a "compromise" pitch setting between the two.
I would really like to start a Velocity VTwin build by 2nd Qtr of 2023... I would prefer to go with Viking 195 hp for my engine option over UL520T (turbo). I want turbocharged engines but the liquid cooled and smooth power of Honda seems like the best option. Having engines that use 93 octane is another positive for what I want on my Velocity.
It is good to see the performance data. The only thing that gives me pause is the oil temp running above 260 on a day with OAT of 70s and below. That is fairly high. I suspect you are running synthetic oil which should be able to handle it, but that still seems high. Does the engine run oil temps that high in the auto application it was designed for?
Yes, it does. The 0-20 synthetic oil can go way over 300F. The ONLY thing to watch is oil pressure and as you can see, it is exceptionally good. This engine does not use any measurable amount of oil. Fly your first 40 hours without adding oil. Now to the advantages of not needing an oil cooler. There is no high pressure oil ever leaving the engine. No remote filter, no oil cooler or hoses, etc. Even the slightest leak in any of this can make fish food of a trip to the Bahamas.
Continental Titan engines have 18-24 months lead time right now. Real world numbers, I ordered a Titan IO-340 for my S-21 Nov. '20 and currently in May 2022 I still do not have any confirmed delivery date.
Frustrating I'm very sure. It is becoming concerning for new engines, parts in the future and so on. No one ever wants to be grounded simply waiting for parts.
How did this set up manage to pull 30 inches MAP at takeoff? Is that an accurate instrument reading? You should loose around an inch off of ambient IFF you have an efficient intake system.
What's the weight difference between the 150hp or 195hp vs the Titan 340? Would it make sense to go to the 195hp and run at less RPM? Would that offer a fuel savings? Personally I think running it at 7 gph is much more fficient and you don't give up much speed. Also are there mounts and FWF for the S21? Can't stand the legacy engines....100 year old technology and gouging everyone with a 75% price increase in the last 3 years. It' doesn't sting so much when a head of lettuce goes from $2 to 3.50, but when the lycoming io360 experimental goes from 30 - 55k it hurts a little more.....I could buy a brand new state of the art pick up truck for the cost of an old 4 cylinder hunk of metal.....
How long do you think these engines will be available? Car makers are known to obsolete engines fairly quickly these days. Unlike the days of the Chevy 350 that seemed like it was made nearly the same for 40 years, it seems car makers today are lucky to make an engine for 10 years without significant changes. If I run one of your engines to 2,000 hours in 15 years, will I be able to buy an exact replacement then? Or will I need to reconfigure my engine bay to accommodate a new model Honda engine? There are downsides to Lycoming engines being the same for 70 years, but on the plus side there is high assurance that I can buy a new engine just like the one I have 15 years down the road.
It is a good question. The short answer is that you can get another engine in 15 years, just like someone with a Honda HRV can get an engine. We can add a spare engine to anyones invoice for $2,500. It is true that the world is moving much faster than it ever did but it is also true that for every traditional engine, tens of thousands of the HRV engine is being made. The harsh reality might also be that due to this new world we live in, you just might want the “new model” after 15 years:). You also just completed 15 years of the future, rather than the “same old” :)
Slightly off-topic, but have you done a tear down yet of a Honda engine with say 1,000 hour or more in aircraft use? That would make an excellent video.
Haven’t had to yet. It’s been 13 years and 1000 engines sold and the highest time we have is 1600 hours and running like a champ. Most of the engine out there are between 600-800 hours. That being said in the last few years we have guys doing 200 plus a year, so it will happen eventually. So engines are out there flying along, if we have to do a tear down, we will share for sure. Keep in mind if a year down is needed though, people just get a new core, an overhaul cost is $2k-$4k even when you get 2000 hours in.
@@eggenfellner I wasn’t thinking overhaul. Just curious to see the wear rate and patterns of an engine designed to run at 20% output most of its life when run at 70-80% output instead. I admit to being leery on Honda engines after being burned by one years ago. The engine in a 1984 Accord that I bought new is the only engine I have owned in 55 years of vehicles that failed before it got to 100,000 miles. Yes, old data, but hard to not think about that when flying behind a Honda over inhospitable terrain.
Yeah, as stated, we just haven't had the need to open them up, because still doing just fine flying around. If we ever have a reason to will def. share. 1984 anything is a long shot from 40 years in the future, that being said, most speak the opposite when it comes to Honda. It would be funny to see the statistic of those that fly behind our engines, most we know also have a Honda :)
@@eggenfellner I agree that it would be fantastic to see fleet statistics of the Honda engines as compared to Lyc, Conti and Rotax. I’m a Kawasaki man myself. I have had several in motorcycles, lawn tractors, lawn mowers, etc. and I have never, ever had a Kawasaki let me down. I’ve only owned one Honda engine and it didn’t even make 80,000 miles before the cam and rockers self-destructed.
I can tell you in 13 years, we have never had an engine fail internally, EVER. So I'd say it's doing alright. The problem is statistic wise, for any of the engines it is hard to get factual anything (Rotax or others) as many never report, share troubles etc. - when people do, the more people learn. We have the opposite thinking, many years of having snowmobiles kick the bucket ;) Lots options for people out there, we just believe strongly in what Honda has done with the engine, and what we have been able to do. Lower cost, equal and better performance, burning less fuel, part availability, no lead times and if you talk to any of our customers we have the best customer service around and we stand behind what we do.
@@eggenfellner props to you, when everything else is considered ( performance, reliability, parts availability, maintenance etc) and Viking not lacking in any of it I would think 2 weeks would be a huge factor to any builder.
Why not in Rans? It’s beceause of the personality of the grumpy old man. Maybe the new boss is more flexibel? Why not in Kitfox? It’s because of the personality of the grumpy old man. 🥳🚀🦖🐊🚀🦄🥶🐏
If everyone got on board - it could be revolutionary for aircraft and engines, making things far more reasonable then where they are and where they are headed. Zenith aircraft got on board, they now register more kits than anyone. Between a streamlined kit and affordable engine it opens the industry up to newer generations as well, not just those with a massive pocketbook.
Rather than a lot of talking, how about put straight forward, apples-to-apples performance and price info in a table and present it. All-inclusive weight, climb rate, cruise performance, and cost. Just put forward your value proposition and let customers decide.
We have that done in charts on our website and on other videos as well. As well as more coming where this couple just finished trips from FL to Maine and then FL to the Dakotas, so it does incredibly well.
@@eggenfellner : And yet you chose to talk at great length and bash Rans, Rotax, and Continental. You’re having success. Be positive. Expand your FWF offerings. Make incremental improvements where you can. Always be super focused on customer service. You’ll do well. OTOH, if you bash on OEMs and your competition, you’ll fly into a headwind. It’s a small, tight community.
I didn’t bash, it IS the truth, and we spent a decade concentrating on just that, and we’re continually bashed for no reason Whatsoever, still are. We have had these FWF options and kit available for many years, and proven performance. Our offerings have never been the issue. Just being honest. People still can’t get engines for their kit from those manufacturers. 🤷🏼♀️ We offer the best customer service in the industry, have a heck of a product and have showcased and proven that for a long time, doesn’t matter when OEMs put down the option.
This channel is one of the most interesting and informative in the world of experimental aviation. Plus your wife, the dogs, and all the great people you serve and have on here with you. Loved seeing all the values of the sensors as you adjusted your engine speed and climb and decent. It takes a little while to get to know all the normal and expected numbers under different conditions
Very impressive demo, this has added to my thinking that Rans S21 with the Viking engine is the way to go. 46:58
Thanks! I've got my S-21 on order since last November. I have been strongly considering a Viking 150 or 195.
Great video Jan!
Admiring the work you and Alissa did the last couple of years.. Awesome product!
What you speak Jan, is the absolute truth. Zenith Aircraft makes it easy to choose what you want and they work with great power plant companies like Viking. Without a doubt the Viking engine will be my power plant one day!
I'm most impressed the "lower" and gearbox can take a full 30 inches at 4000rpm without a fuss. High manifold low rpm was a wive's tale in classic recips. ESPECIALLY in cruise. But with the low displacement and a gearbox, I'd be more inclined to let it run out. Seeing and hearing it sing along at a meager 4000 rpm is very compelling. I'm not bashing Rotax at all, but I wouldn't run a 9 series less than 4800 from my limited experience in them. It feels weird when you start loading up the engine. Maybe it's me. Maybe it's harmonic balancing. I'm not sure. But they sound uncomfortable at lower rpm above 23".
This was a very infomational video.
its all about metalurgy and maintenance. i have a 1990 Honda CBR 1000 F with 65,000 miles of operation at high rpm and the compression, and lifter and timing chain wear are still facyory fresh
I found this video very educational, especially the flying part looking at the digital info display. I’m still a steam gauge person, this is the first time I’ve ever seen the newer stuff actually working. I’m curious about your engine rpm controlling, I’ve never seen a digital device like you are using here at the higher rpms. This looks like a nice airframe/engine combination. Thanks for taking the time to make and present this.
Pretty sure this has a variable pitch prop so the 'device' you're referring to is the prop RPM controller. Notice the throttle is full in the whole time and as the requested RPMs go down the manifold pressure goes up.
If I were building any airplane, I would be looking hard at Viking. It just make so much a lot of since. I just wish Zenith made a high wing plane that was similar to s21 in cruse speed.
As a guy with Honda motorcycles and a K20 in my Acura RSX I think this is a great idea!
The main inefficiency in a traditional aircraft engine is the very low compression ratio. That is one of the key efficiency determinants in an internal combustion engine. Even leaned optimally, I would think the Honda would still have a 5-10% fuel efficiency advantage over a Lycoming or Continental.
Yes you are right, The fact that the Honda engine is ALWAYS optimized would make it use less fuel for the same flight. Also, since we live in a world where some are very concerned in regards to the environment, it is theoretically possible to fly with as minimum of tail pipe emissions. Maximum engine efficiency, lowest noise and best propeller efficiency is with a variable propeller set for low rpm and maximum manifold pressure. A condition difficult to duplicate with a traditional engine without serious detonation.
At last!! The video we've been waiting for! And 47 minutes of data at that!! Keep up the great work!!
Thank you, hope you enjoyed it.
@@eggenfellner Great performance for sure! 92% of the top speed of the IO-340, with 84% of the horsepower, equivalent weight, and half the engine cost! I'd say that's a win for the customer! Well done!
Question on the video though. I may have missed it in the video, but I think Kathy has the VIP prop controller installed. Did you use the prop controller at all in the video? Or was that performance data with a "simulated" fixed prop configuration?
In the lower right of the video I do use it when changing RPM, performance is similar with fixed pitch/ground adjustable - other than that, the lower RPM/High manifold pressure numbers would not be attainable. So basically, cruise RPM would be slightly higher.
@@eggenfellner Thanks for clarifying. Exactly as would be expected. Slightly better climb performance and slightly better cruise performance since you don't need to find a "compromise" pitch setting between the two.
The plane sure flies good, not needing any rudder input through all the rpm and altitude changes!
I’m planning to put one on a scratch built super cub I’m working on. Just trying to work out the logistics of actually putting it on the airplane.
The 915 with the FWF package is about $60,000... I think that is why it has 'disappeared'.
Wow, that’s a bunch. Some say you will not get your money back on your airplane with a Viking engine :). Try getting that amount back.
I think the 915 is around 48k and on the Rans site the firewall forward is 23k!!!
I would really like to start a Velocity VTwin build by 2nd Qtr of 2023... I would prefer to go with Viking 195 hp for my engine option over UL520T (turbo). I want turbocharged engines but the liquid cooled and smooth power of Honda seems like the best option. Having engines that use 93 octane is another positive for what I want on my Velocity.
It is good to see the performance data. The only thing that gives me pause is the oil temp running above 260 on a day with OAT of 70s and below. That is fairly high. I suspect you are running synthetic oil which should be able to handle it, but that still seems high. Does the engine run oil temps that high in the auto application it was designed for?
Yes, it does. The 0-20 synthetic oil can go way over 300F. The ONLY thing to watch is oil pressure and as you can see, it is exceptionally good. This engine does not use any measurable amount of oil. Fly your first 40 hours without adding oil. Now to the advantages of not needing an oil cooler. There is no high pressure oil ever leaving the engine. No remote filter, no oil cooler or hoses, etc. Even the slightest leak in any of this can make fish food of a trip to the Bahamas.
First time I've heard "power band" used in an aviation engine informational 👍
6.6 gal/hr 120 ish kts? 😮
Continental Titan engines have 18-24 months lead time right now. Real world numbers, I ordered a Titan IO-340 for my S-21 Nov. '20 and currently in May 2022 I still do not have any confirmed delivery date.
Frustrating I'm very sure. It is becoming concerning for new engines, parts in the future and so on. No one ever wants to be grounded simply waiting for parts.
Great video I wish I can come and visit your facility !!!
Pilot speakng here. The a/c / engine handled it really well. How are YOUR ears after that 4000 ft.ROD? Thx for all the data points.
Interesting combo. 195t and R21 looking good. Need to find EAA in south east Fla to meet some builders.
During this video, I noticed you did not use VIP ...Correct? The efficiency should be even greater right?
How did this set up manage to pull 30 inches MAP at takeoff? Is that an accurate instrument reading? You should loose around an inch off of ambient IFF you have an efficient intake system.
What's the weight difference between the 150hp or 195hp vs the Titan 340? Would it make sense to go to the 195hp and run at less RPM? Would that offer a fuel savings? Personally I think running it at 7 gph is much more fficient and you don't give up much speed. Also are there mounts and FWF for the S21?
Can't stand the legacy engines....100 year old technology and gouging everyone with a 75% price increase in the last 3 years. It' doesn't sting so much when a head of lettuce goes from $2 to 3.50, but when the lycoming io360 experimental goes from 30 - 55k it hurts a little more.....I could buy a brand new state of the art pick up truck for the cost of an old 4 cylinder hunk of metal.....
How long do you think these engines will be available? Car makers are known to obsolete engines fairly quickly these days. Unlike the days of the Chevy 350 that seemed like it was made nearly the same for 40 years, it seems car makers today are lucky to make an engine for 10 years without significant changes. If I run one of your engines to 2,000 hours in 15 years, will I be able to buy an exact replacement then? Or will I need to reconfigure my engine bay to accommodate a new model Honda engine? There are downsides to Lycoming engines being the same for 70 years, but on the plus side there is high assurance that I can buy a new engine just like the one I have 15 years down the road.
It is a good question. The short answer is that you can get another engine in 15 years, just like someone with a Honda HRV can get an engine. We can add a spare engine to anyones invoice for $2,500. It is true that the world is moving much faster than it ever did but it is also true that for every traditional engine, tens of thousands of the HRV engine is being made. The harsh reality might also be that due to this new world we live in, you just might want the “new model” after 15 years:). You also just completed 15 years of the future, rather than the “same old” :)
Slightly off-topic, but have you done a tear down yet of a Honda engine with say 1,000 hour or more in aircraft use? That would make an excellent video.
Haven’t had to yet. It’s been 13 years and 1000 engines sold and the highest time we have is 1600 hours and running like a champ. Most of the engine out there are between 600-800 hours. That being said in the last few years we have guys doing 200 plus a year, so it will happen eventually. So engines are out there flying along, if we have to do a tear down, we will share for sure. Keep in mind if a year down is needed though, people just get a new core, an overhaul cost is $2k-$4k even when you get 2000 hours in.
@@eggenfellner I wasn’t thinking overhaul. Just curious to see the wear rate and patterns of an engine designed to run at 20% output most of its life when run at 70-80% output instead. I admit to being leery on Honda engines after being burned by one years ago. The engine in a 1984 Accord that I bought new is the only engine I have owned in 55 years of vehicles that failed before it got to 100,000 miles. Yes, old data, but hard to not think about that when flying behind a Honda over inhospitable terrain.
Yeah, as stated, we just haven't had the need to open them up, because still doing just fine flying around. If we ever have a reason to will def. share. 1984 anything is a long shot from 40 years in the future, that being said, most speak the opposite when it comes to Honda. It would be funny to see the statistic of those that fly behind our engines, most we know also have a Honda :)
@@eggenfellner I agree that it would be fantastic to see fleet statistics of the Honda engines as compared to Lyc, Conti and Rotax. I’m a Kawasaki man myself. I have had several in motorcycles, lawn tractors, lawn mowers, etc. and I have never, ever had a Kawasaki let me down. I’ve only owned one Honda engine and it didn’t even make 80,000 miles before the cam and rockers self-destructed.
I can tell you in 13 years, we have never had an engine fail internally, EVER. So I'd say it's doing alright. The problem is statistic wise, for any of the engines it is hard to get factual anything (Rotax or others) as many never report, share troubles etc. - when people do, the more people learn. We have the opposite thinking, many years of having snowmobiles kick the bucket ;) Lots options for people out there, we just believe strongly in what Honda has done with the engine, and what we have been able to do. Lower cost, equal and better performance, burning less fuel, part availability, no lead times and if you talk to any of our customers we have the best customer service around and we stand behind what we do.
I have heard there is a long wait for a Titan Engine and some builders are stuck waiting. What time frame is Viking Engines and builders looking at?
About 2 weeks :)
@@eggenfellner props to you, when everything else is considered ( performance, reliability, parts availability, maintenance etc) and Viking not lacking in any of it I would think 2 weeks would be a huge factor to any builder.
Why not in Rans? It’s beceause of the personality of the grumpy old man. Maybe the new boss is more flexibel?
Why not in Kitfox? It’s because of the personality of the grumpy old man.
🥳🚀🦖🐊🚀🦄🥶🐏
I think a 1.5 I-Dtec is smaller than the L15.
what is the TBO ....is it safe at 2000 hrs
Yes or over 2000 on condition.
Viking 195 for the S-21?
We have the 195T FWF and kit as well, they are currently building though, none flying that exact setup yet.
Looking forward to seeing 195T data on Rans S21.
I didn't know We could install any other engine than Viking on An Experimental... that is all a hear about is Viking....
It’s what us smart people do…. 😉
Engines are too damn expensive, especially aero engines. Automotive conversions are the only recourse for amateur built aircraft.
If everyone got on board - it could be revolutionary for aircraft and engines, making things far more reasonable then where they are and where they are headed. Zenith aircraft got on board, they now register more kits than anyone. Between a streamlined kit and affordable engine it opens the industry up to newer generations as well, not just those with a massive pocketbook.
I thought S21 as a light sport could only fly 138mph Max
This isn’t light sport and has a variable pitch prop. So either the smaller engine options or pitched to not exceed.
@@eggenfellner thank you I was confused. I’m not a pilot as you can probably tell by the dumb question
No question is a dumb question, and you have the right idea they just can do different things depending on needs and preferences
Pilot seems behind the aircraft>
Rather than a lot of talking, how about put straight forward, apples-to-apples performance and price info in a table and present it. All-inclusive weight, climb rate, cruise performance, and cost. Just put forward your value proposition and let customers decide.
We have that done in charts on our website and on other videos as well. As well as more coming where this couple just finished trips from FL to Maine and then FL to the Dakotas, so it does incredibly well.
@@eggenfellner : And yet you chose to talk at great length and bash Rans, Rotax, and Continental. You’re having success. Be positive. Expand your FWF offerings. Make incremental improvements where you can. Always be super focused on customer service. You’ll do well. OTOH, if you bash on OEMs and your competition, you’ll fly into a headwind. It’s a small, tight community.
I didn’t bash, it IS the truth, and we spent a decade concentrating on just that, and we’re continually bashed for no reason Whatsoever, still are. We have had these FWF options and kit available for many years, and proven performance. Our offerings have never been the issue. Just being honest. People still can’t get engines for their kit from those manufacturers. 🤷🏼♀️
We offer the best customer service in the industry, have a heck of a product and have showcased and proven that for a long time, doesn’t matter when OEMs put down the option.
What the hell is over the screen?
Just a camera mount of the map area to film.