Fish & any good mechanic should of warn these young fellows on the prebuy inspection that those Continental engines have a poor reliable problem from the get go. Keep away even if its new unless you got deep pockets.
@@tropicthndr so you think the answer is to buy a twin?? Are you nuts? These guys aren't even pilots yet! They need to get their licenses and build time in a SINGLE before they step up to a TWIN. Besides, a twin only means you have TWO engines to go wrong, and now you're spending TWICE the money for oil changes and routine maintenance because there's two of everything to maintain. I've been a pilot and A&P mechanic/I.A, for 40+ years and have owned several planes. I've been around the block a time or two. I commend these guys for buying a plane and feeding and housing it right. They are making a smart decision here regarding the engine, and I wish them well. I'm glad to see they are looking at the engine issue objectively and are doing the right thing. Now, go shop for your twin, get your check book ready, and good luck to you.
I think you’re in a great position now because you have control over how you get the engine overhauled. Buying a plane someone else overhauled is risky. I bought my 182 with under 500 hrs since overhaul and still in calendar time. I didn’t know they had used AEC pistons instead of Continental pistons and lost the skirt off one. So it just sat in the engine getting ground into particles which eventually jammed the oil pressure relief valve open hence no oil pressure for 20-30mins (still had oil pumping) had two friends with me. Moral of the story is don’t skimp on parts in your engine USE GENUINE PARTS ONLY. Anyway safe flying and enjoy yourselves with your flying.
This experience proves the adage: It is better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Give Mike Busch a call ("Savvy Aviation"). All this is his specialty. Your mechanic is stellar.
Agree 100% if flying just for fun, instead of flying professionally or for business. Years ago, I bought 11 hours of flight training, and during that process spoke with several aviation mechanics about costs, and consequently pulled the plug on acquiring my PPL. Having said that, for the pure thrill of flight, getting a sailplane license, and then buying a used model in good condition maybe a viable option, if, someone lives in, or close to an area with great flying conditions, i.e., consistent thermals and/or ridge lift.
Aviation is a whole new game. Reminds me of when my son and I bought our 77 Grumman Tiger back on November 6th, 2016. We purchased it for $40K. Less than a month later, we had to replace an old worn out flap motor after the flaps wouldn't retract on a flight. Another month later, some yahoo ran into our port side elevator while moving his aircraft on the ramp. Then our landing light burnt out and we replaced it with an LED version which ran us a couple hundred bucks, but no longer needs replacement until at least 10K hours. We also upgraded all of our NAV lights, strobes and tail beacon. Then our Garmin 430W had a bad flip flop switch, which required sending the unit into the factory for an overhaul which ran us $950 and change. Since owning our Grumman, we've sunk over $20K in maintenance and improvements, the latest being a cockpit upgrade to replace old, broken instruments with new, digital glass instruments and the removal of our antiquated vacuum system. Our justification for spending the money is that we plan on owning the aircraft for many more years. My son got his private, instrument, commercial and, just recently, his CFI ratings all in the Tiger. It's been well worth the investment. Good luck with your new engine overhaul and installation and also your flight training. Fly safe and fly often!
I am very thankful Jeffrey and Christian that you both were able to notice that something was wrong with the engine. That is most definitely a very important thing to get fixed and make sure that everything is done correctly. I'm glad that you both were able to get help and also get the information that you both needed. I know it's a lot of money however it's going towards great reasons.
A friend of mine had a saying: "There's nothing as expensive as a bargain." In my experience, I've seen it again and again. There's a reason the seller was prepared to let it go for the price you paid.
Sorry about the setback and appreciate you sharing the experience. Like you said, the money so put into the engine isn't money tossed but will increase the value of the plane accordingly.
Something tells me the guy that sold this plane to you knew about this issue and here is why: When you do an oil change you have to remove and replace the oil filter but at the same time open the old oil filter and inspect the pleats for metal debris, the kind of pitting you see on the lifters aren't microscopic particles breaking off in normal wear and tear but nice big pieces. I doubt that a good mechanic would have missed seeing the metal debris on the oil filter pleats and not report it to the owner, most mechanics out there know what they are doing. Having said that, I am glad you found someone with a trained eye helping you with the pains of aircraft ownership. Obviously there are a ton more factors involved but this is just one thing I thought of right away when I saw the pitting.
Just went through this on my Mooney M20J. Luckily we boroscoped the cylinders and up through the drain plug to see the cam. Saw the pitting and began the removal process. Nothing more expensive to fly than a cheap airplane, but at least you'll know it's fresh and reliable when it's all repaired.
I think you guys did great. Bought a good plane with a weak link (engine). Get the engine re-built and now you have peace of mind. You could have bought a newer plane but who knows what issues that engine carried.
Awesome Video! We are currently in the process of putting a lot of money in a Piper Aztec F that we bought at a very low price. So I definitely feel your pain. Good luck on the rebuild!
Sorry to hear you’ve had to get an engine overhaul so early. That’s probably the most expensive thing that you’ll have to get done on an aircraft. But now it’s done that’s going to be good for a few years
I am in my 50s now but when I was in my teens me and my father rented a plain and flew to Tennessee. On the way home it blew up at 7000 feet over north Florida. We got into a private field and called the guy we rented it from and told him where his plain was. The plain was a Cessna 150. Perfect for a first aircraft. We ended up buying the plain and leasing it to a FBO to use as a trainer. That thing made us so much money. I only got to fly it one time after we bought it. It was a little bit busy. My sister did get her license in that plain as well so not to bad. But it made lots of money.
When my O-360 A1A needed to be overhauled I chose to get a factory zero time engine. My AP/IA removed and replaced the engine. At the same time I had the wet vacuum pump overhauled and the C/S prop. Lot of firewall forward was cleaned up at the same time. Good luck.
Glad he caught that man, better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground! I fly an SR22 and it's an absolute blast, ours is down right now too for an avionics upgrade. We have some family in Sedona, might have to hit you up when we fly down to visit them!
While it can be difficult to determine the condition of the cam and lifters you should consider what part of the country the plane has been living and how many hours it has been flown per year. A florida plane flown 20 hours a year will almost certainly have cam/lifter corrosion, a plane from Arizona being flown 400 hours a year almost certainly won't.
Good call. Consider replacing cht and egt sensors plus the all the associated wiring for them forward of the firewall, much easier while the engine is out...
That’s an unfortunate lesson but it does highlight the importance of regular maintenance. If you have any vehicle with a motor the most important thing you can do is oil and filter changes!
A mechanic friend once told me "There's nothing more expensive than a cheap European car". Aircraft trend the same- however it's not a total loss when it comes to airframe valuation.
Start changing your own oil at 25 hours. It’s that simple. P.S. and save the money on fancy oils. Every 25 your fine with what I use. Aero shell 100 in the summer and 80 in the winter. Also invest in a Tanis preheat system for cold mornings. Yes even in the hanger. An engine blanket too when you go somewhere. These little things will make a big difference. Not only in safety but your wallet as well. Happy flying. Aircraft owner for over 25 years. FYI
Based on what you said alone, in your first video, I’d never have bought that Cirrus. Lucky you’ve got what appears to be a top notch A&P, who is Continental and Cirrus savvy. That and the fact you have deep pockets, LOL. Good Luck guys!
I am glad you guys found the problems before they could become a potential in flight emergency. It would also explain why i haven't seen you guys or talked to you on the radios later at SDL.
The only thing a seller is responsible for is up to date and non-fraudulent log books. Beyond that it is up to the buyer to read those books and to pay for a pre-buy inspection.
Shoulda Bought an RV-10 Guys! Woulda saved you a whole lot of money and had a brand new plane for whatcha gonna have into the bird...Plus they are a ton more cheaper to maintain as well...
@@JRAviation Every time I take off at night with pitch black terrain.... I'm appreciative of the reliability of the engine. It's like human life support at that point.
A worn cam is not likely to produce an inflight emergency, cam wear is accelerated and eventually the engine won't produce rated power but it takes quite a while for that to happen. You could put it back together and run it another 100 or 200 hours and it would likely be just fine.
Main point, need to fly regularly to keep the oil on your components to prevent corrosion/pitting. Also, use CAMGUARD in addition to the oil. Living in Arizona in the dry climate will be helpful.
Highly highly highly recommend you watch Mike Busch's presentations he puts together. Super informative on a variety of maintenance and plane running subjects. Being a first time plane owner going into my third year now I learned SO much from Mike.
Oh yea 18y on a since new is way over. That means it sat a lot. And as y’all know in the auto world time is a bigger killer than use. I know cost is always a issue but the 3 times I’ve been in y’all’s shoes i decided on factory new engines. And with that I’ve have gotten all the factory support/warranty parts and labor. They rolled the red carpet out for their customers. Keep up the good content
Engines don't wear out while looking at the calendar. Engines wear out when sitting because of rust and corrosion. This isn't a problem if the plane lived in a low humidity region.
Not sure if it’s your editing, but some incorrect statements were made around 2:25. First, lifter face spalling and cam lobe wear typically DO NOT lead to higher risk of imminent engine failure. The wear is so slow, that a lot of owners don’t realize over time that the engine is not making full rated power. Second, lifter-cam wear does not lead to case damage or bent pushrods. Bent pushrods are the result of stuck valves. Lastly, Continental MM-0 outlines a test using a pick to determine the acceptable wear on the cam lobe. If the cam is not totally wiped out, you can buy some time by replacing the lifters with new and continue flying. Like I wrote earlier, cam wear does not increase the risk of engine failure. Before doing something expensive like an overhaul, it might be a good idea to get a second opinion by consulting someone like Savvy aviation.
Well, THAT's gotta hurt. Like you said, better to find out now. Great advice from your mechanic as well. Oil analysis is something we have done on our group Arrow which gives us a bit more peace of mind about the engine's health.
This would be possible to predict during a pre-purchase inspection... Check the engine logs and check for a period of inactivity. Long gap without flying (and the engine not inhibited) is a big issue for internal corrosion. They need to be flown every month to keep them fresh. Ground runs don't count as the oil temperature doesn't get up high enough. I bet that this aircraft did a lot of sitting around as its 17 years old and low hours. Age is worse for an engine than hours! Lycoming engines are worse than the Conti's as the camshaft sits above the crank and dries out first.
Those engines commonly go well past suggested TBO. TBO only applies to aircraft for hire. As a part 91 flyer this engine can and usually does go way past the 2,000 hour TBO. A simple oil analysis in pre-buy might have raised some red flags.
Nobody overhauls based on calendar year. Even the guys who won't go beyond TBO don't yank an engine based on the 12 year recommendation. My airplane engine is 1900 hours SNEW in 1973.
I highly suggest reading Mike Busch books. Most engine failures occur 200 hours AFTER a new/rebuilt engine is put in....you ask why? Human error is MUCH more likely than mechanical error with an engine that has already proven it lasted 2000 hours
Calendar time or TBO hours? It’s all about liability and insurance. Sure you can roll the dice, but it’s grounds for an insurance company not to pay off on a loss. Have been there and seen it. Ask the FAA, your insurance company or the manufacturer and you won’t get a solid commitment. But if you go to court it’s solid grounds to find you negligent. 😳
That is a big bummer. But still much better then to experience an engine out and an emergency dead stick landing in the desert of Arizona as a new and inexperienced private pilot. An overhaul of the engine is a very reasonable decision. You will not make money on that plane. But you will get a lot of joy with it. That's worth more then the $$$$$.
Thank you guys so much for the videos, I learned a lot from it, can’t imagine how much you guys are learning, I always conceder to purchase an airplane, my instructors recommends to purchase it prior the overhaul as it bonds you more as well as your learning curve increase
Just went through this. Have Fish walk through what you did and did not change while engine is out (mounts, fuel system, prop governor). Why not overhaul prop? You’ll have 25 hours of high power break in flights to profile with mineral oil.
A pre purchase inspection on a Continental engine should include pulling a lifter out or two out and inspecting the cam. I'd get a second and third opinion on the airworthiness of the cam before you commit to an engine overhaul. I love how organized your mechanic is.
They don’t need another opinion on that cam. It’s junk. Any spalling, ANY, takes it out of service. Cams are either good, or self-destructing. That’s it. Unless you like round cams, metal in the oil, and catastrophic failure.........
Thx Guys. I have a Cirrus SR22 , BASED IN Liverpool, UK. I will be following Fish’s advice of oil change, cut open oil seals and send oil of for analysis at every oil change. Watch the numbers! Very helpful. 👍😊
On the flight to Sedona I saw a lot of vibration on the cam , figured a cilinder going off, an engine analizar with egt and cht will keep the engine on the sweet spot of the temperatures
Did you do an oil analysis on the prebuy? I strongly recommend you do one on prebuy. Depending on last oil change this could have been identified. By the way, good catch Fish. Been There, Done That,
All aircraft salesmen & owners change the oil before u buy it especially if it's making metal. Not enough hours to show metal on a prebuy oil analysis. These guys where greenhorns & took it deep.
That particular engine doesn't tend to make 2,000 hours. I would have built the engine change into the price you paid (maybe you did). The old owner probably did an oil analysis and saw the metal showing up from the lifters.
Yeah the owner knew it was making metal. He did a oil and filter change to hide it. Can't detect metal in clean oil with no hours. These fellows where greenhorns with poor advice from Fish or whoever did the prebuy inspection. Warning don't buy a plane with a Continental engine unless you have deep pockets they are maintenance hogs rarely make TBO. Go with a reliable low time Lycoming engine or be prepared to take it deep like these fellows did.
I do not understand why the jug was purchased and installed before the lifter was removed and examined? Seems backwards to put on a new jug and then check to see if it needs anything else? Thanks, great video.
Fish explained it on another comment thread in depth but basically the plane was at another shop (cirrus certified) who really messed some things up and left it in pieces. Fish came by to investigate and clean up the situation.
@@JRAviation -Thanks for clearing that up. He seems like a good wrench. I think you bought the right plane. One with low total time, low price, but one that you can monitor the needed repairs and upgrades and have them done the way you want to. I also think it’s hard to find and get there 1st when one does come along. With all the recent and on going small plane crashes, maybe you would mention what insurance costs are doing theses days??? Thanks again.
I tell non-pilots, who ask what maintenance costs just to think of what it costs to maintain a high-end car, and add a zero to the bill. Helicopters: triple even that number.
Finding a "cheap" plane is a lot harder than on cars, when they're cheaper they usually need overhauls. Sometimes it's even cheaper to buy a plane that just got overhauled then one that's close to TBO.
No. A inexpensive plane really does not exist. A 50 year old Cessna 172 is still around $35k (the price of a new mid-sized car). But used planes are 'used' which means they have hours on them and they will need to be updated, repaired and large items often replaced entirely, like an engine with TBO hours on them.
@@DaviD_iB1 We made different points. Buying used with a max'd engine is just as valid as buying one with a new engine or one thats just been overhauled. As long as you ACCOUNT and are AWARE of those things BEFORE purchase. Hence the reason to get a full pre-buy inspection by an A&P even if the engine logbook shows a new engine or one overhauled. The airframe might have problems too.
@@speedomars but you still tried to correct me for something I’m completely right on. An aircraft with an engine that’s close to TBO will be cheaper than one with an overhauled engine, hence why they bought it. There’s no reason to try to correct what I said.
@@DaviD_iB1 I said nothing about cheaper or what to buy. I am trying to teach the thread that no one should be buying a used aircraft without a FULL and COMPLETE pre-buy inspection which often costs as much as an annual. Whether you choose to buy a plane with a new engine or one near TBO is equally valid as long as you account for the added expense potential in the purchase price. If the prior owner replaces the engine or you do it is the same thing as long as you discount the plane for that expense before hand..
How would that have presented on oil analysis? I have a supercharged Chevy V8 that is the king of piston slap, my oil for 200,000+ miles have come back with very high aluminum and high iron. We though on the first sample back in 2003 I needed a new engine but the oil analysis place said to develop a trend before rebuild. Now 19 years and 247,000 miles I was called when my aluminum was not high enough, they wanted a new sample in 2000 miles. Likely cause, winter, I did not tow my trailers nor did I drive it like I stole it nor did I have any emergency responses of great distances. I drove like a normal person, don’t tell anyone. I am looking to buy my own plane, what would I look for in a first sample oil analysis? My new truck’s engine had too much ware then my 250,000 mile 5,200 hour engine did not have enough ware, what do I need to look for? Kewl toys you have by the way.
Did you guys pay for a pre-buy inspection? You can check lifters easily on that Continental during a pre buy. You should have pulled the lifters on the pre buy on a Continental. You can’t on a Lycoming. But now you know what you flying behind after you fix it. So all good.
Ouch! But better here on the ground. What will the warranty cover and for how long? Would you have been better off with a new engine and longer warranty than the rebuild?
Best thing to do after you get your new engine is to fly it. And fly it often. The more you fly the better. Do regular oil changes 50 HRS or 4 Months. And don't baby it. Aircraft engines like to run and run hard. See how Owen ran it like close to red line. That's where they like to run. I'd start the oil analysis not to soon either. Your going to have some metals in right after replacing it. I'd also check and see if the other Cirrus owners are using "Cam Guard" Can help with the issue your having now. They are expensive aircraft to own VS ones like Cessna or Piper. It's just the nature of the beast.
Very interesting Video! IMHO und considering the sound of the video is realistic, you can hear that the engine on your 1000nm homebase flight runs not very smooth. RRRRR... But thank you.. The very big issue in the US and EU as well is that in fact there is no warranty of a new engine worth the paper. The manufacturer always have lame excuses not to pay. Good luck, gentlemen!
I'm not an aircraft mechanic, but why wasn't the lifter problem not seen when the jug was off? Seems to me this would have been caught before installing a new cylinder jug. I think reassembling the engine with the old cylinder and parts, then decide what to do with this engine. You now have the cost of the new cylinder on a piece of crap engine.
@@Airplanefish The lifters should of been removed & flushed to check the dry rocker clearances especially with a different jug going on from the get go. Also to check if there collapse. After removing the lifters you automatically look at the cam lobes right after. Now these fellows are taking it $1200 deeper buying a cylinder plus labor on a engine that needs a major. This is why Aviation is dying slowly.
I can't seem to agree with the Cirrus expert on his statement of the level of pitting seen on the lifters, not being a reason to fully tear the engine down. As a performance engine builder, I can state that a pitted lifter means that engine is getting pulled out and torn down completely. One flake of work hardened material like a lifter or cam makes it to any other bearing surface, and it's done for.
I heard correctly what was said. Check at 1:17. "That in itself, might not be a reason to pull the engine apart". If that statement was incorrect, nothing in the video description, nor a text over in the video at that time point, clarified the issue. As I said, the lifter damage alone warranted the engine to be completely torn down, and that statement at 1:17 should not have been said.
You say, now you know the importance of oil changes. Are you saying this plane didn’t have adequate oil changes? Was the previous owner derelict in routine maintenance? If not, what happened? Why did this engine wear so badly?
Haha. Welcome to the Cirrus ownership experience!! How long until until the parachute and risers need to be replaced. That's another $15k... Good thing you can make UA-cam videos to pay for it and you can write off the expense... BTW, get the factory zero time engine... Closer to $40k just for the engine. Get the three bladed prop...
Did you notice how narrow the lobes on the camshaft are? 20% wider would be possible without changing anything else. It is absolutely not sure if the former owner knew this. Hydro lifters operate silently, even worn; if they knock they are internally clogged and donot function anymore. You are nearing 2000 hrs, and as Ferrari driver can spent a dime. And a new overhauled engine will give you 2000 hrs of Cirrus fun.
The lobes on the cam are as wide as the manufacturer's specs. specify them to be. There is no box to check on an "options list" for "wider cam lobes". In a certificated engine, all the parts must meet stringent dimensional criteria. You can't just "tweak" engine parts and pieces to your liking and call it good.
What are you guys using for grounds training? I've recently used king and passed with flying colors. On the other hand if the plane is still down and you need some flight time id recommend angel aviation out in Glendale municipal. They have well maintained aircraft for an affordable price.
What measures have you discussed to assure your new engine will remain as good as possible? ie dehumidifier, proper operation for conditions, oil analysis, etc
Nice video, but from the looks of the hanger and the TOYS ... I don't think you guys will have a hard time coughing up the coins. Do it right and get a factory reman engine and happy flying.
As for using it as a family trainer, in many families goodwill only goes so far. $36k plus hoses and stuff, plus tax, I would guess $50k total. Assuming you go full TBO on the next engine, $50000/2000 = $25 per hour, not including maintenance (which makes it go to full TBO). I would advise charging family members $40/hr dry, an amazing bargain from their viewpoint. And then you want to add avionics ($20k) and put a Taco Wrap around it :-)
You could have noted the cost difference between the overhaul and a new engine and possibly an already rebuilt used one for sale. But enjoyed your very interesting video.
In Aviation Safety is everything, so nice you noticed that early enough.
As a pilot and acft mechanic you did the right thing in bringing in an expert to look over the aircraft. Very smart!
Not smart enough, the ones with common sense get a twin just because of this problem which is very frequent in Continental engines and Sr22’s
Fish & any good mechanic should of warn these young fellows on the prebuy inspection that those Continental engines have a poor reliable problem from the get go. Keep away even if its new unless you got deep pockets.
@@tropicthndr so you think the answer is to buy a twin?? Are you nuts? These guys aren't even pilots yet! They need to get their licenses and build time in a SINGLE before they step up to a TWIN. Besides, a twin only means you have TWO engines to go wrong, and now you're spending TWICE the money for oil changes and routine maintenance because there's two of everything to maintain. I've been a pilot and A&P mechanic/I.A, for 40+ years and have owned several planes. I've been around the block a time or two. I commend these guys for buying a plane and feeding and housing it right. They are making a smart decision here regarding the engine, and I wish them well. I'm glad to see they are looking at the engine issue objectively and are doing the right thing. Now, go shop for your twin, get your check book ready, and good luck to you.
Your engineer may have saved your lives. He is evidently worth every penny and then some.
I think you’re in a great position now because you have control over how you get the engine overhauled. Buying a plane someone else overhauled is risky. I bought my 182 with under 500 hrs since overhaul and still in calendar time. I didn’t know they had used AEC pistons instead of Continental pistons and lost the skirt off one. So it just sat in the engine getting ground into particles which eventually jammed the oil pressure relief valve open hence no oil pressure for 20-30mins (still had oil pumping) had two friends with me. Moral of the story is don’t skimp on parts in your engine USE GENUINE PARTS ONLY. Anyway safe flying and enjoy yourselves with your flying.
This experience proves the adage: It is better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.
Give Mike Busch a call ("Savvy Aviation"). All this is his specialty.
Your mechanic is stellar.
Agree 100% if flying just for fun, instead of flying professionally or for business. Years ago, I bought 11 hours of flight training, and during that process spoke with several aviation mechanics about costs, and consequently pulled the plug on acquiring my PPL. Having said that, for the pure thrill of flight, getting a sailplane license, and then buying a used model in good condition maybe a viable option, if, someone lives in, or close to an area with great flying conditions, i.e., consistent thermals and/or ridge lift.
Fish is obviously a very thorough, competent mechanic! Very wise choice!
These guys are on a steep learning curve
Aviation is a whole new game. Reminds me of when my son and I bought our 77 Grumman Tiger back on November 6th, 2016. We purchased it for $40K. Less than a month later, we had to replace an old worn out flap motor after the flaps wouldn't retract on a flight. Another month later, some yahoo ran into our port side elevator while moving his aircraft on the ramp. Then our landing light burnt out and we replaced it with an LED version which ran us a couple hundred bucks, but no longer needs replacement until at least 10K hours. We also upgraded all of our NAV lights, strobes and tail beacon. Then our Garmin 430W had a bad flip flop switch, which required sending the unit into the factory for an overhaul which ran us $950 and change.
Since owning our Grumman, we've sunk over $20K in maintenance and improvements, the latest being a cockpit upgrade to replace old, broken instruments with new, digital glass instruments and the removal of our antiquated vacuum system. Our justification for spending the money is that we plan on owning the aircraft for many more years. My son got his private, instrument, commercial and, just recently, his CFI ratings all in the Tiger. It's been well worth the investment.
Good luck with your new engine overhaul and installation and also your flight training. Fly safe and fly often!
Fish is going to get even busier! He does a great job explaining.
I love the comment that he made about why he fixes them instead of owning. 😉👍
Fish is leading these lambs to the slaughter.
I am very thankful Jeffrey and Christian that you both were able to notice that something was wrong with the engine. That is most definitely a very important thing to get fixed and make sure that everything is done correctly. I'm glad that you both were able to get help and also get the information that you both needed. I know it's a lot of money however it's going towards great reasons.
A friend of mine had a saying:
"There's nothing as expensive as a bargain."
In my experience, I've seen it again and again. There's a reason the seller was prepared to let it go for the price you paid.
Sorry about the setback and appreciate you sharing the experience. Like you said, the money so put into the engine isn't money tossed but will increase the value of the plane accordingly.
Something tells me the guy that sold this plane to you knew about this issue and here is why: When you do an oil change you have to remove and replace the oil filter but at the same time open the old oil filter and inspect the pleats for metal debris, the kind of pitting you see on the lifters aren't microscopic particles breaking off in normal wear and tear but nice big pieces. I doubt that a good mechanic would have missed seeing the metal debris on the oil filter pleats and not report it to the owner, most mechanics out there know what they are doing. Having said that, I am glad you found someone with a trained eye helping you with the pains of aircraft ownership. Obviously there are a ton more factors involved but this is just one thing I thought of right away when I saw the pitting.
Just went through this on my Mooney M20J. Luckily we boroscoped the cylinders and up through the drain plug to see the cam. Saw the pitting and began the removal process.
Nothing more expensive to fly than a cheap airplane, but at least you'll know it's fresh and reliable when it's all repaired.
I think you guys did great. Bought a good plane with a weak link (engine). Get the engine re-built and now you have peace of mind. You could have bought a newer plane but who knows what issues that engine carried.
You guys are fortunate you found all this. And a good mechanic is worth his weight in gold, gee he may have saved your ass literally.
This is a good lesson to learn. Listen to Fish and do everything he is suggesting. He's a great mechanic and likely just saved 2 lives.
I like how this guy works. Glad you have him on your team.
Awesome Video! We are currently in the process of putting a lot of money in a Piper Aztec F that we bought at a very low price. So I definitely feel your pain. Good luck on the rebuild!
Sorry to hear you’ve had to get an engine overhaul so early. That’s probably the most expensive thing that you’ll have to get done on an aircraft. But now it’s done that’s going to be good for a few years
Your positive attitude ALWAYS makes a difference and that's what you GOT!😉👍
I am in my 50s now but when I was in my teens me and my father rented a plain and flew to Tennessee. On the way home it blew up at 7000 feet over north Florida. We got into a private field and called the guy we rented it from and told him where his plain was. The plain was a Cessna 150. Perfect for a first aircraft. We ended up buying the plain and leasing it to a FBO to use as a trainer. That thing made us so much money. I only got to fly it one time after we bought it. It was a little bit busy. My sister did get her license in that plain as well so not to bad. But it made lots of money.
When my O-360 A1A needed to be overhauled I chose to get a factory zero time engine. My AP/IA removed and replaced the engine. At the same time I had the wet vacuum pump overhauled and the C/S prop. Lot of firewall forward was cleaned up at the same time. Good luck.
Thank you for the insight.
@@JRAviation Best to see if you can get rid of the vacuum system. Get an Aspen or G5 system
And that's the way to go. Zero time comes with a new powerplant book to boot! Also a great time to change the old fuel and oil hoses.
Did you get a pre-by inspection my certified mechanic, including borescope of cylinders, etc.?
Glad he caught that man, better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground! I fly an SR22 and it's an absolute blast, ours is down right now too for an avionics upgrade. We have some family in Sedona, might have to hit you up when we fly down to visit them!
Have him change the engine mounts out too
While it can be difficult to determine the condition of the cam and lifters you should consider what part of the country the plane has been living and how many hours it has been flown per year. A florida plane flown 20 hours a year will almost certainly have cam/lifter corrosion, a plane from Arizona being flown 400 hours a year almost certainly won't.
The good news is...you own a beautiful Cirrus! Awesome plane. And soon with a fresh engine.
Yes indeed!
Good call. Consider replacing cht and egt sensors plus the all the associated wiring for them forward of the firewall, much easier while the engine is out...
That’s an unfortunate lesson but it does highlight the importance of regular maintenance. If you have any vehicle with a motor the most important thing you can do is oil and filter changes!
A mechanic friend once told me "There's nothing more expensive than a cheap European car". Aircraft trend the same- however it's not a total loss when it comes to airframe valuation.
Start changing your own oil at 25 hours.
It’s that simple.
P.S. and save the money on fancy oils. Every 25 your fine with what I use.
Aero shell 100 in the summer and 80 in the winter. Also invest in a Tanis preheat system for cold mornings. Yes even in the hanger. An engine blanket too when you go somewhere. These little things will make a big difference. Not only in safety but your wallet as well.
Happy flying.
Aircraft owner for over 25 years. FYI
^ What he said! Retired pilot, owner, A&P/IA 30 years.
Based on what you said alone, in your first video, I’d never have bought that Cirrus. Lucky you’ve got what appears to be a top notch A&P, who is Continental and Cirrus savvy. That and the fact you have deep pockets, LOL. Good Luck guys!
The most expensive is not buying a plane, is maintaining a plane.
Ive said this very thing to MANY PEOPLE!! LOL
Same goes to car if your dont maintain it later down the road one by one will start to break down!
I am glad you guys found the problems before they could become a potential in flight emergency. It would also explain why i haven't seen you guys or talked to you on the radios later at SDL.
The seller was honest.
At the price you bought it AND the new engine, prop and accessories, you are still way ahead.
Great buy!
The only thing a seller is responsible for is up to date and non-fraudulent log books. Beyond that it is up to the buyer to read those books and to pay for a pre-buy inspection.
Shoulda Bought an RV-10 Guys! Woulda saved you a whole lot of money and had a brand new plane for whatcha gonna have into the bird...Plus they are a ton more cheaper to maintain as well...
I loved the answer, " That's why I maintain them, I do not own them !"
Ya an infight engine failure is not good... Great catch!
Definitely was. Could have been bad.
@@JRAviation Every time I take off at night with pitch black terrain.... I'm appreciative of the reliability of the engine. It's like human life support at that point.
A worn cam is not likely to produce an inflight emergency, cam wear is accelerated and eventually the engine won't produce rated power but it takes quite a while for that to happen. You could put it back together and run it another 100 or 200 hours and it would likely be just fine.
Yep, have had two failures in flight in single engine airplanes. Not fun in either case, but all worked out well! Better safe than sorry though!
Sounds like you guys found yourselves a really good A&P.
Glad you caught this before something catastrophic occurred in flight... good job and good decision making!!
Yes! Thank you!
Main point, need to fly regularly to keep the oil on your components to prevent corrosion/pitting. Also, use CAMGUARD in addition to the oil. Living in Arizona in the dry climate will be helpful.
Yes YES YES! Aircraft engines are susceptible to corrosion from sitting, especially in humid climate.
Highly highly highly recommend you watch Mike Busch's presentations he puts together. Super informative on a variety of maintenance and plane running subjects. Being a first time plane owner going into my third year now I learned SO much from Mike.
Great insight into the cirrus inner workings. Best of luck with the overhaul and the lessons. It’s a great rewarding journey. KAPF
Lemonade stand money coming in clutch again for the rebuild process. Looking forward to the upcoming content from you guys.
Oh yea 18y on a since new is way over. That means it sat a lot. And as y’all know in the auto world time is a bigger killer than use.
I know cost is always a issue but the 3 times I’ve been in y’all’s shoes i decided on factory new engines. And with that I’ve have gotten all the factory support/warranty parts and labor. They rolled the red carpet out for their customers.
Keep up the good content
Engines don't wear out while looking at the calendar. Engines wear out when sitting because of rust and corrosion. This isn't a problem if the plane lived in a low humidity region.
Not sure if it’s your editing, but some incorrect statements were made around 2:25.
First, lifter face spalling and cam lobe wear typically DO NOT lead to higher risk of imminent engine failure. The wear is so slow, that a lot of owners don’t realize over time that the engine is not making full rated power.
Second, lifter-cam wear does not lead to case damage or bent pushrods. Bent pushrods are the result of stuck valves.
Lastly, Continental MM-0 outlines a test using a pick to determine the acceptable wear on the cam lobe. If the cam is not totally wiped out, you can buy some time by replacing the lifters with new and continue flying. Like I wrote earlier, cam wear does not increase the risk of engine failure.
Before doing something expensive like an overhaul, it might be a good idea to get a second opinion by consulting someone like Savvy aviation.
Well, THAT's gotta hurt. Like you said, better to find out now. Great advice from your mechanic as well. Oil analysis is something we have done on our group Arrow which gives us a bit more peace of mind about the engine's health.
What line of work are you guys in to have exotic cars and cirrus?
This would be possible to predict during a pre-purchase inspection... Check the engine logs and check for a period of inactivity. Long gap without flying (and the engine not inhibited) is a big issue for internal corrosion. They need to be flown every month to keep them fresh. Ground runs don't count as the oil temperature doesn't get up high enough. I bet that this aircraft did a lot of sitting around as its 17 years old and low hours. Age is worse for an engine than hours! Lycoming engines are worse than the Conti's as the camshaft sits above the crank and dries out first.
true this
Fish is very competent and organized. Was the cracked intake tube the reason for the original problem of the cylinder overheating?
Total bummer but makes for a great youtube series, looking forward to watching the progress!
Ouch !!! Safety first when it comes to flying. Just take your time getting it repaired. It will be worth it in the long run.
IIRC the engine recommended overhaul is 2000 hours or 12 years in service. So since 2003 that's beyond recommended O/H
Those engines commonly go well past suggested TBO. TBO only applies to aircraft for hire. As a part 91 flyer this engine can and usually does go way past the 2,000 hour TBO. A simple oil analysis in pre-buy might have raised some red flags.
@@jdmerrit
Yep. Key word: “recommended.”
Nobody overhauls based on calendar year. Even the guys who won't go beyond TBO don't yank an engine based on the 12 year recommendation. My airplane engine is 1900 hours SNEW in 1973.
I highly suggest reading Mike Busch books. Most engine failures occur 200 hours AFTER a new/rebuilt engine is put in....you ask why? Human error is MUCH more likely than mechanical error with an engine that has already proven it lasted 2000 hours
Calendar time or TBO hours? It’s all about liability and insurance. Sure you can roll the dice, but it’s grounds for an insurance company not to pay off on a loss. Have been there and seen it. Ask the FAA, your insurance company or the manufacturer and you won’t get a solid commitment. But if you go to court it’s solid grounds to find you negligent. 😳
That is a big bummer. But still much better then to experience an engine out and an emergency dead stick landing in the desert of Arizona as a new and inexperienced private pilot. An overhaul of the engine is a very reasonable decision. You will not make money on that plane. But you will get a lot of joy with it. That's worth more then the $$$$$.
Been through the same thing. A&P seems very knowledgeable! It hurts, but will be well worth it! Can’t just pull over, when the engine dies!!
Definitely!
Thank you guys so much for the videos, I learned a lot from it, can’t imagine how much you guys are learning, I always conceder to purchase an airplane, my instructors recommends to purchase it prior the overhaul as it bonds you more as well as your learning curve increase
Great video you guys! Kudos to the A&P for his detailed explanations. 👍🏻👍🏻
Just went through this. Have Fish walk through what you did and did not change while engine is out (mounts, fuel system, prop governor). Why not overhaul prop? You’ll have 25 hours of high power break in flights to profile with mineral oil.
A pre purchase inspection on a Continental engine should include pulling a lifter out or two out and inspecting the cam. I'd get a second and third opinion on the airworthiness of the cam before you commit to an engine overhaul. I love how organized your mechanic is.
They don’t need another opinion on that cam. It’s junk. Any spalling, ANY, takes it out of service. Cams are either good, or self-destructing. That’s it. Unless you like round cams, metal in the oil, and catastrophic failure.........
Thx Guys. I have a Cirrus SR22 , BASED IN Liverpool, UK. I will be following Fish’s advice of oil change, cut open oil seals and send oil of for analysis at every oil change. Watch the numbers! Very helpful. 👍😊
Glad the problem was discovered while the plane was on the ground. Safety must always come first. Keep uploading thèse aviation videos.
Yes, thanks
The right way to go. In doing this, maybe 🤔 also thinking about an avionics upgrade??? Then you have a modern bad ass plane.
On the flight to Sedona I saw a lot of vibration on the cam , figured a cilinder going off, an engine analizar with egt and cht will keep the engine on the sweet spot of the temperatures
Did you do an oil analysis on the prebuy? I strongly recommend you do one on prebuy. Depending on last oil change this could have been identified.
By the way, good catch Fish.
Been There, Done That,
"god catch Fish". I see what you did there!
@@silasmarner7586 lol! I love it. I've never had anyone say it like that. Awsome!
All aircraft salesmen & owners change the oil before u buy it especially if it's making metal. Not enough hours to show metal on a prebuy oil analysis. These guys where greenhorns & took it deep.
That particular engine doesn't tend to make 2,000 hours. I would have built the engine change into the price you paid (maybe you did). The old owner probably did an oil analysis and saw the metal showing up from the lifters.
Yeah the owner knew it was making metal. He did a oil and filter change to hide it. Can't detect metal in clean oil with no hours. These fellows where greenhorns with poor advice from Fish or whoever did the prebuy inspection. Warning don't buy a plane with a Continental engine unless you have deep pockets they are maintenance hogs rarely make TBO. Go with a reliable low time Lycoming engine or be prepared to take it deep like these fellows did.
Good thing you guys caught this early
I do not understand why the jug was purchased and installed before the lifter was removed and examined? Seems backwards to put on a new jug and then check to see if it needs anything else? Thanks, great video.
Fish explained it on another comment thread in depth but basically the plane was at another shop (cirrus certified) who really messed some things up and left it in pieces. Fish came by to investigate and clean up the situation.
@@JRAviation -Thanks for clearing that up. He seems like a good wrench. I think you bought the right plane. One with low total time, low price, but one that you can monitor the needed repairs and upgrades and have them done the way you want to. I also think it’s hard to find and get there 1st when one does come along. With all the recent and on going small plane crashes, maybe you would mention what insurance costs are doing theses days??? Thanks again.
Pitting on continental lifters? Shocker!
I tell non-pilots, who ask what maintenance costs just to think of what it costs to maintain a high-end car, and add a zero to the bill. Helicopters: triple even that number.
Finding a "cheap" plane is a lot harder than on cars, when they're cheaper they usually need overhauls. Sometimes it's even cheaper to buy a plane that just got overhauled then one that's close to TBO.
No. A inexpensive plane really does not exist. A 50 year old Cessna 172 is still around $35k (the price of a new mid-sized car). But used planes are 'used' which means they have hours on them and they will need to be updated, repaired and large items often replaced entirely, like an engine with TBO hours on them.
@@speedomars that’s literally what I just said, I’m an AME. You really tried to sound smarter by saying the same thing, LMFAO.
@@DaviD_iB1 We made different points. Buying used with a max'd engine is just as valid as buying one with a new engine or one thats just been overhauled. As long as you ACCOUNT and are AWARE of those things BEFORE purchase. Hence the reason to get a full pre-buy inspection by an A&P even if the engine logbook shows a new engine or one overhauled. The airframe might have problems too.
@@speedomars but you still tried to correct me for something I’m completely right on. An aircraft with an engine that’s close to TBO will be cheaper than one with an overhauled engine, hence why they bought it. There’s no reason to try to correct what I said.
@@DaviD_iB1 I said nothing about cheaper or what to buy. I am trying to teach the thread that no one should be buying a used aircraft without a FULL and COMPLETE pre-buy inspection which often costs as much as an annual. Whether you choose to buy a plane with a new engine or one near TBO is equally valid as long as you account for the added expense potential in the purchase price. If the prior owner replaces the engine or you do it is the same thing as long as you discount the plane for that expense before hand..
How would that have presented on oil analysis?
I have a supercharged Chevy V8 that is the king of piston slap, my oil for 200,000+ miles have come back with very high aluminum and high iron.
We though on the first sample back in 2003 I needed a new engine but the oil analysis place said to develop a trend before rebuild.
Now 19 years and 247,000 miles I was called when my aluminum was not high enough, they wanted a new sample in 2000 miles. Likely cause, winter, I did not tow my trailers nor did I drive it like I stole it nor did I have any emergency responses of great distances. I drove like a normal person, don’t tell anyone.
I am looking to buy my own plane, what would I look for in a first sample oil analysis?
My new truck’s engine had too much ware then my 250,000 mile 5,200 hour engine did not have enough ware, what do I need to look for?
Kewl toys you have by the way.
Did you guys pay for a pre-buy inspection? You can check lifters easily on that Continental during a pre buy.
You should have pulled the lifters on the pre buy on a Continental. You can’t on a Lycoming.
But now you know what you flying behind after you fix it. So all good.
They upgraded from a lemon aid stand to ice tea. Time to take to the sky’s! 🥴🥴🤣
Its a shame cost are so high in aviation. How much will your insurance be? $200K hull value with student pilots flying?
Ouch! But better here on the ground. What will the warranty cover and for how long? Would you have been better off with a new engine and longer warranty than the rebuild?
40 AMUs, Aircraft monetary units. ($1,000) Lol, welcome to flying! Great video.
Because of inflation, an AMU is now $10,000.
Best thing to do after you get your new engine is to fly it. And fly it often. The more you fly the better. Do regular oil changes 50 HRS or 4 Months. And don't baby it. Aircraft engines like to run and run hard. See how Owen ran it like close to red line. That's where they like to run. I'd start the oil analysis not to soon either. Your going to have some metals in right after replacing it. I'd also check and see if the other Cirrus owners are using "Cam Guard" Can help with the issue your having now. They are expensive aircraft to own VS ones like Cessna or Piper. It's just the nature of the beast.
Thank you for the detailed comment!
Very interesting Video! IMHO und considering the sound of the video is realistic, you can hear that the engine on your 1000nm homebase flight runs not very smooth. RRRRR... But thank you.. The very big issue in the US and EU as well is that in fact there is no warranty of a new engine worth the paper. The manufacturer always have lame excuses not to pay. Good luck, gentlemen!
Flew under 100 hrs a year on average, probably had some rust on the lifters and cam from sitting.
Love you guys....keep up the great videos!!!
I'm not an aircraft mechanic, but why wasn't the lifter problem not seen when the jug was off? Seems to me this would have been caught before installing a new cylinder jug. I think reassembling the engine with the old cylinder and parts, then decide what to do with this engine. You now have the cost of the new cylinder on a piece of crap engine.
@@Airplanefish The lifters should of been removed & flushed to check the dry rocker clearances especially with a different jug going on from the get go. Also to check if there collapse. After removing the lifters you automatically look at the cam lobes right after. Now these fellows are taking it $1200 deeper buying a cylinder plus labor on a engine that needs a major. This is why Aviation is dying slowly.
I can't seem to agree with the Cirrus expert on his statement of the level of pitting seen on the lifters, not being a reason to fully tear the engine down.
As a performance engine builder, I can state that a pitted lifter means that engine is getting pulled out and torn down completely. One flake of work hardened material like a lifter or cam makes it to any other bearing surface, and it's done for.
I heard correctly what was said. Check at 1:17. "That in itself, might not be a reason to pull the engine apart". If that statement was incorrect, nothing in the video description, nor a text over in the video at that time point, clarified the issue. As I said, the lifter damage alone warranted the engine to be completely torn down, and that statement at 1:17 should not have been said.
You don’t get second chance’s in the sky 🌌 good luck guys
So whats the update with this paper weight yall bought?
You say, now you know the importance of oil changes. Are you saying this plane didn’t have adequate oil changes? Was the previous owner derelict in routine maintenance? If not, what happened? Why did this engine wear so badly?
Haha. Welcome to the Cirrus ownership experience!! How long until until the parachute and risers need to be replaced. That's another $15k... Good thing you can make UA-cam videos to pay for it and you can write off the expense...
BTW, get the factory zero time engine... Closer to $40k just for the engine. Get the three bladed prop...
@@Airplanefish 'cause perhaps he's been there and done that?
Another Cirrus envy goon who no doubt does not have a pilots license or an aircraft.
Did you notice how narrow the lobes on the camshaft are? 20% wider would be possible without changing anything else.
It is absolutely not sure if the former owner knew this. Hydro lifters operate silently, even worn; if they knock they are internally clogged and donot function anymore.
You are nearing 2000 hrs, and as Ferrari driver can spent a dime. And a new overhauled engine will give you 2000 hrs of Cirrus fun.
The lobes on the cam are as wide as the manufacturer's specs. specify them to be. There is no box to check on an "options list" for "wider cam lobes". In a certificated engine, all the parts must meet stringent dimensional criteria. You can't just "tweak" engine parts and pieces to your liking and call it good.
What are you guys using for grounds training? I've recently used king and passed with flying colors. On the other hand if the plane is still down and you need some flight time id recommend angel aviation out in Glendale municipal. They have well maintained aircraft for an affordable price.
What measures have you discussed to assure your new engine will remain as good as possible? ie dehumidifier, proper operation for conditions, oil analysis, etc
I couldn't get that info about the replacement of this flat six. Do You know?
Just curious, does this aircraft have the parachute system?
Yes
Ground school. Which one are you using? I ask because I’m looking for one myself to start flying. Love the channel. Keep the vids coming.
Nice video, but from the looks of the hanger and the TOYS ... I don't think you guys will have a hard time coughing up the coins. Do it right and get a factory reman engine and happy flying.
As for using it as a family trainer, in many families goodwill only goes so far. $36k plus hoses and stuff, plus tax, I would guess $50k total. Assuming you go full TBO on the next engine, $50000/2000 = $25 per hour, not including maintenance (which makes it go to full TBO). I would advise charging family members $40/hr dry, an amazing bargain from their viewpoint. And then you want to add avionics ($20k) and put a Taco Wrap around it :-)
How much was the SR 20 was bought ?
You could have noted the cost difference between the overhaul and a new engine and possibly an already rebuilt used one for sale. But enjoyed your very interesting video.
Thats odd flat tappet damage..I wonder if he used bad oil...as in no zinc? I use high zinc in my aircooled vw!
Looks more likely to be the surface hardening on the lifter to cam lobe faces is starting to break up.
"been wanting to do this my whole life" man I've been wanting to do things longer than you've been alive! Jealous
You have a great mechanic instead of a parts specialist. Better safe than sorry. ✌🏽
Very true!