Its funny to see how challenges from sports have come to esports as well. Hockey for example has gone through a similar debate, albeit a long time ago. Players would modify their sticks to put a curve at the end to allow for better puck control. Players and fans didnt universally love it but it was never outright banned. Same thing with when they changed from wooden sticks to the composite ones they use now. Its totally different than what the game was originally played with but I think it has raised the skill ceiling for those who are truly skilled. As time goes on people will find a way to modify their tools that gives them any advantage, especially in a competitive setting!
exactly, it's just people stuck up in old ways that don't want to accept nor conform to change. Look at Hal in Apex. Controllers in apex have (in my opinion) even MORE of a competitive advantage over KB&M than hitboxes do against gamecube controllers. The community/pros hate how broken controllers are due to Aim assist. So instead of bitching about it, Hal put in the time and effort to get good on controller to prove he's the Apex GOAT this year.
Endyrance running too now. With the the carbon fiber plate inside shoes that retain compression energy and very gently shoot your foot of the ground again with. Making you use 99.6% of the energy needed per step. Repeat for 40 km and those .4% become huge
PC gamers and other FGC players can use whatever hardware they want. Smash exists in a weird Nintendo fanboy space😮 so I do understand the dedication to original hardware. If all GC controllers were the same, then something like a fight stick would be outside the spirit of the game. But since the Official controllers have no consistency in components, this is a no brainer. You must regulate the specifics of 3rd party controllers , but there is no question that they must allow them.
@@calebrobinson6406 instead of considering it people should just start running it until it takes over. if it weren't for the hax leffen video 1.03 would already be universal by now, it just isn't adopted by association. all the stuff you might not like can be toggled off
I have a friend (He's not a pro or even trying to be a pro), yet he owns like 15 controllers with countless parts and stuff that he adjusts every time we play Smash. It's actually mindboggling when you actually watch him talk about it. He even has a 3d printer that he uses to make parts (He says it's an utter disaster trying. It's nuts how much time and money a person can invest into Gamecube controllers.
Every Melee pro uses a modded controller, and most of the modded controllers come from the same person. I would take Mango's word over Leffen, the perpetual complainer every day of my life.
@@chairwoodhe was one of the players who used goomwaves over phobs because he had a direct line to gooms, which is funny because the only one banned now out of boxxs, phobs and goomwaves are goomwaves because essentially they had built in macros
When it comes to the HitBox I remember distinctly hearing that one of the major advantages of it was ergonomics. As SEVERAL smash bro's players had suffered injuries from playing the game, and that this hitbox offered them a way to play without being in pain from conditions like arthritis
Depends on the iteration. The wasd smashbox was horrendous and is why Hax pushed the b0xx through, but once the b0xx layout and variations of its spacing became standard most controllers are pretty solid. The current concern is basically from the nerf proposals turning the ergonomic input sequences on the b0xx layout into unergonomic sequences without having particular balance impact to a degree that the "optimal nerfware setup" should be more competitively strong than the hax patch b0xx while having horrendous ergonomics in comparison.
@@LaFlarb What is actually unfair about it? If digital controllers were that much better in a competitive game where they're allowed we'd be seeing more players at top level with them. In particular, hax patch b0xx has always been nerfed far beyond the bounds the ruleset requires and, again, we're not even seeing sudden domination by cheater digital controllers much less b0xxes. I'm just not seeing a world where the advantage or disadvantage of choosing a b0xx is so great that it supersedes being the better player in a set. Individual player variation even at similar skill levels just seems to be much higher than controller power variation now that people aren't using real cheater controllers like goomwaves.
@@sunderkeenin if you play a space animal it’s ridiculously easy to do shine out of shield, JC shine, and multi shines compared to trying to do that on a controller for example. Stuff like that is where u have a clear advantage. Like yea the more skilled player will generally win but there are clear cut advantages. Dashing back out of crouch for free is another busted advantage of box controllers.
@@LaFlarb in exchange for a less intuitive controller, having to do rocket science for your less flexible recovery angles, having an explicitly inferior wavedash angle, and having overall inferior DI options(iirc there was good slight DI on sheik specifically), long lockout on pivot utilt among other nerfs if you check hax patch specifically. F1 didn't do the pivot utilt nerf, for example, and the smashbox is basically actually a cheater controller lol. There's unique upsides to b0xx, and there's unique upsides to gcc. I'm still a fan of 1.03 to make things more even without removing the uniqueness which makes the controller comfortable to use, but even without 1.03 it just doesn't seem to be a big enough difference to justify making the controller awful to use. The other big funny people keep forgetting is that the "nerfware" is as far as we can tell significantly more competitively powerful than current hax patch and not a single one of the nerf proposals from the committee disallows making firmware even more powerful than the "nerfware". The "nerfware" is more about giving digital controller players an awful ergonomic and gameplay experience than about balancing the Melee scene.
Man, I love dipping into random communities occasionally to watch a video about a current problem or hot topic. In this case, I'm not even playing Melee, but it's fascinating to see what's going on in their “world” and appreciate the effort, experience, and history involved in all of this. So interesting!
As a 3 year smashbox controller user, it does feel very good to use and there are objective advantages. Though small, they can accumulate in those cutting edge situations. The drawbacks are real too, but situational and in some cases may not matter. Why do I permanently use my smashbox / crossup box controllers then? It is 100% because of my wrists and hands. I use my hands exhaustively in my daily life, taken further using the switch pro controller daily which left my hand and fingers numb regularly. I developed carpal tunnel and couldn't hold things like milk gallons without quickly exhausting my hands for the day. Using the smashbox controller turned that around so fast. Yes, I can technically push myself even harder to get the most out of the benefits, making my wrists worse despite the smashbox controller. However instead, I distribute the work across my fingers better allowing me to play with better endurance, which I would otherwise be behind average on due to my wrist issue. Thank you HitBox Arcade for making the smashbox. Now that my years in smash are over, accelerated by Nintendo's continued apathy towards the tournament scene compared to companies like Valve, Im going on to use it in other games like Tekken 8.
"BOXX CONTROLLERS SHOULD BE BANNED! BOXX USERS SHOULD HAVE ALL THEIR HANDS BREAK RIGHT NOW!" These kinds of people never consider the reason controllers like this exist, disabilities. And they don't consider how yes, these controllers have advantages they also have disadvantages.
I mean I do straight up think they are better than gc controllers. The disadvantages are marginal, like less wavedash length control and things im not qualified to talk about. But yeah the boxx has revitalized the long term careers of some of the scenes most important players and allowed them to continue with the game they love. Box controllers are better than game cube controllers, but lets not also forget that game cube controllers and melees button layout kinda suck for the way melee is played in the modern meta. There needs to be a serious discussion about the standardization of things like z jump, rebindable buttons, and universal box standards if we want this game to go as far as it can into the future. @@Andrew12105
@@jakobhammer3038 right. I remember some considering the goomwave as cheating too but the people who thought they were fine was people who considering the boxx as cheating (despite both being able to do things the oem controllers couldn't do) like a certain popular melee player who I won't name here, I personally find it hypocritical
I used to think the same thing but then I started playing melee and realized that it is built so much better for competitive play with a much higher skill ceiling. And it makes sense because Nintendo was trying to make their newer smash games less competitive and more casual.
I mean, if you REALLY wanted to ban them you COULD inspect every player's controller. That's not THAT difficult a thing to do. I'm speaking about tournaments.
Newer box style controllers are not an issue for the most part. I am sure that there are some that give an advantage but I definitely don't think box/smashbox style controllers are "cheating". It's also a barrier for entry due to the low amount of good gamecube controllers and the amount people are willing to charge for them. It also helps players to avoid damaging their hands, which has happened to some pros in the past due to the executional requirements of the game.
As a longtime player, I actually have slightly more concerns about button remapping or phobs than boxes But frankly at the end of the day, whatever controller you use, the better player on that day is still almost always going to win regardless
Analog input will always provide more challenges than tactile button presses. Especially in a game where finding a specific coordinate on the analog stick can be the difference between an SD and a ledgedash. Controllers have too much control over the outcome of a match.
Box style controllers are not good for your hands. They are good specifically for hax’s condition, which has to do with his thumb joint. Any ergonomics specialist will tell you that pronated wrists lead to a higher rate of injury and RSI. The handshake position is best for your hands, and for box controllers to be ergonomic, they should at bare minimum be tented. In their current form, they are worse for your hands and wrists than a gamecube controller
As for the phob. We do need some work to make them better. I think a lot of the problem comes from builders who dont know what solder to use or using the wrong specs when having the PCBs made. I built my own phob and its been great. It took a while to get it calibrated but once i got that done ive had no issues. As for Leffen and whatever he says in literally anything just ignore it. He is either 100% correct or 100% wrong. Nothing against him there just that he is not a good source of information or community sentiment.
Imagine my surprise hearing how much these guys spend on modded controllers while i play Melee casually (Slippi) using an old PS4 Remote with some stick drift 😂
Yeah this is not a problem for anyone who isnt a pro player like most people cant hit melee tech consistently enough to need a super consistent modded controller
I've been playing melee for nearly 10 years and my controller is basically shit and it doesn't especially bother me. I think it's mostly a personality thing. That and if you're a super elite player, you need a very good controller. 99% of players it's just not relevant.
@@mymyscellanytbh i am pretty bad at melee, but i recently got a real used controller compared to the fake one i previously had and it seriously improved my enjoyment of the game in a lot of areas. but tbh past having just a real one i rlly cannot understand spending massive amounts of money if you're not a content creator or a comp player
As long as the controller has 1:1 inputs I don’t care how many buttons you put on it or what shape you decide to put it in. Speaking accessibility, controllers being 100% customizable with everything from size and shape all the way down to button choice in size, placement, and type is a huge mega win for gaming at all levels. If someone is using a non 1:1 by utilizing macros and combo inputs then I do take issue as it brings into question the legitimacy of their inputs as a whole. Custom notches at specific angles don’t bother me either, if I showed up to a COD tournament and put a red sticker on my screen for sniping am I cheating?
I don't how you can equate a red sticker in the middle of your screen to a controller that gives you easily spammable frame-one invincible moves, which can be used in literally almost any situation. Sure you can spam shine on a normal conch, but the boxx is like training wheels for spacies. Hard tech like perfect Shine OoS, Jc shines, multi-shine on shield, becomes trivialized on a box. Instead of the useless sticker analogy, Imagine a cod player rolling up to a tournament with a controller that made snaking easier, whilst also giving the precision that a mouse offers. It would be 1:1, but wouldn't a mouse be unfair when playing such a fast TTK fps like COD, when 99% of players are on a controller? Weird how stuff like XIM was banned in casual console gaming.
@@Domeroto1 XIM was banned because you could actually cheat using it. Like auto counter recoil cheat. The argument against different controllers shouldn't be "it was harder for me to learn on a sub-par controller, so everyone should have it that hard." I swear that should be called the boomer fallacy.
Just a note for the editors: Leffen is probably one of the most biased, unreliable sources of information on box-style controllers. I wouldn't base a 14 minute video on his opinion.
@@isuck6049 leffen won a major this year and in 2022 so what? Maybe youre confusing him with m2k and armada in this video who retired in 2018 and those video clips are all pre 2019 too. but regardless. leffen is super bias lol. Heck hax might be part of the reason he hates boxes so bad.
There was a hitbox/mixbox issue in streetfighter a while ago bc you could hold forward and back at the same time which would allow you to block while moving or start charge moves earlier because of this iirc.
no you can't all tourny legal hitboxes have socc, and SF5 and VI have software SOCC that will nullify anything that doesn't have it. EG you plug in an old PS\2 Keyboard you can't press 4-6 at the same time it will = neutral in said game. It's only older games that lack that it.
Coming moreso from other fighting games, and playing them on keyboard, I can see how it's an advantage to have a purely consistent controller. However, Haxx$ made "The Boxx", which intentionally is nerfed for melee, making it a much more viable alternative to the gamecube controller. It's a hard question to answer, but especially in melee, I believe that it makes far less of a difference. Anywhos, FGs are awesome, and you're awesome if you play any of them, no matter your controller
@@kiranearitachi he did some things like making it impossible to press 1 button to desync your ice climbers, making it take more frames to instant shield job and pivot tilt, and making it so you don't have a perfect full length wavedash. there's a video called "Hax$ Shows Perfect Wavedash On The B0XX" that shows how an unnerfed boxx is
I'm okay with box controllers simply because they are products that are still being made, that can still be bought. At a certain point, Gamecube controllers won't be available to anyone, and the playerbase will have to accept that other types of controllers will have to be used instead. Banning any non-oem controllers would be like forcing all tournaments to play the game on Gamecubes with the original Melee disc. At a certain point, it's just not viable to cling to components, hardware and software that you can no longer buy.
My man, they allow you to replace the motherboard and do pretty much whatever the fuck you want to them. It's the goddamn wild west because 99.9999999999% of the smash community have no clue what they're actually talking about. Anyone with basic knowledge of electronics went 'uh oh' the instant they noticed you could replace parts for 'accessibility reasons' or use parts from controllers that don't aren't even gamecube controllers. There's nothing really stopping someone from push button cheating. Considering this has already happened in other games with FAR more knowledgeable and vast player bases... yikes. It's not a question of when someone cheats it's how long have they been cheating.
Melee community: Damn these controllers suck, I wish there was something we could do to make them more consistent Hax: Here I made this B0XX that is totally consistent MC: Noooooo it's TOO consistent and better than GC controllers so its overpowered! Hax: Here I made 1.03 so that GC controllers are on par with the B0XX MC: Noooooo you're a crazy person we aren't using that The solution already exists. Melee community just sucks
Would love you guys to do a vid on the 5 gods of fighting games Daigo, Nuki, Sako, Haitani, Tokido. The 5 Gods of Melee term was inspired by these guys. They all played more than just Steet Fighter too. Not so much these days as there's more at stake but back in the day they were on another level.
Here is my take, the input devices in any game will evolve over time. As long as there isn't software that presses buttons for you or any macros that allow you to execute combos with one button its not cheating, its still the player making ALL the inputs.
Agreed. If everyone can do it, it’s not cheating. Anybody can cut notches, anybody can use a hitbox. In this sense the hitbox may be more fair than standard controllers with their chaotic randomness.
The smash community can be very elite towards the gcc. Literally take any smasher to a venue hosting a tourney for another fighting game and their eyes will pop from all the diversity of controllers...
not "any" games, arcade games will force you you play on the cab with it's inputs (like over at KAC) the thing is, mechanical skill is also a huge factor to what makes competitive play... competitive, beyond just making the better decisions, some people can just do stuff that's too hard for others to pull off, and quite often the "mechanical difficulty" of certain maneuvers is directly related to the control scheme a more popular example of this is where mouse and keyboard is actually banned for console FPS tournaments even if consoles support that input nowadays, because aiming with a stick is simply much harder than aiming with a mouse, and stick aim is something people want to be able to compete in
But if the equipment makes it much easier to make those inputs, something you couldnt do without it, thats a huge deal. Like if i use a mouse and keyboard in an FPS game im still making all the inputs but its undeniable that i wouldnt be able to do the same things if i was using a controller.
Tournaments should supply controllers. Everyone gets a built and verifided-to-work controller. No dopey mods, it just works as it should. Simple as. That change would eliminate controller modding as there'd be no point to cheating outside of tournaments where you'd suddenly have a huge disadvantage.
There are some things to note. These types of modifications were illegal in the mlg days or the golden era of halo. Same thing for cod. It wasn't until Scuf started throwing money at mlg they were unbanned for cod. And then unbanned for halo years after but this was during either reach or h4 era i forget. maybe even 2010 h3 but scufs didnt really matter since its only h2 and h1 where they would have been good. But yeah i've seen custom homegrown controllers in the ce and h2 era where they were basically just scuf controllers or had remapping. And of course mlg events weren't every single halo event (world cyber gamers idk about, and then like just big local tournaments or lans). and btw 1/3 of the smash community hates remapping too. Bunch of boomers saying you should get hand pain clawing. The most popular one is remapping the z button (right bumper on 360) to jump so you can jump and aerial without moving fingers which allows for much more consistent frame 1 aerials. I'd say its about the same impact if you remapped x and b to left and right bumper on a 360 controller end of era halo2. definitely more impactful than just mapping only a or only b to right bumper even tho thats still huge in h2.
As a non competitive smash player who over years has worn through many many original game cube controllers analog sticks. The best solution I have found is to replace the original stick using a Wii nunchuck analog stick. The rubber is connected entirely differently and has extended the lifetime of my sticks by what feels like 10x . Maybe someone finds this helpful.
I play on an Xbox controller. I find it hard to imagine switching to a GC controller or whatever would make such a big diff. Maybe if I were a top-tier player, I'd see the difference, but as a very mediocre player, I think focusing on the fundamentals is much more important. I'll worry about controllers when I reach gold rank
Im very pro hitbox style pads but I'm still on the line with how to allow multiple angled inputs for the crazier movement. I don't know how youd really be able to test the code to make sure its compliant, I think the most you could ask is to limit the number of buttons total allowed on the box.
The solution is simple, standard design specifications agreed by the tournament organizers. Controllers should have standard spring lengths, button sizes, notches, etc. It's clear the scene will last for decades to come and OEM hardware will be harder and harder to find and players will be forced to use 3 party controllers. I think hit boxes are fine to a limit. No macros, no dual input, can't do anything that an OEM controller can't do. So buttons that can let a player go right or left are fine, but buttons that let's someone to immediately do up+B attacks with one button are illegal since that's two inputs with one button press. Accessibility is important so we need hit boxes but there has to be a limit for competitive play Just because a controller looks OEM does not mean it is. Besides, they can always make two different brackets
So this has always been my thing cuz I've played a few fighting games. The argument with the boxx/fightsticks is your getting mad at punishing you for your habits more consistently. They aren't out smarting you which is why no matter how many boxes there are, we have the same top 6 players using controllers. Boxes don't make you smarter they just allow more people to play at a top level tech wise. But melee has never been a game determined by how many techs you can do. It's always been who out smarts who in the moment. I'm "ok" with boxes because I've never felt as if someone has beaten me because they had a better controller. I've always been beaten cuz they read my roll, they read my dash back, they baited my approach.
To get back to the sports analogy, the hitbox vs even modded/hand-crafted controllers seems more like bringing a cricket bat up to home plate at a baseball game instead of a baseball bat. It's radically different hardware.
Its not about whether or not a scrub becomes a god with an unfair controller. Its about whether a top 100 player suddenly becomes a top 25 player. Its not about the lower ranked players and never has been. Giving even a slight advantage at the top level is massive.
@@thomaskopv2366Well, considering the top-tier, custom-made controllers with all the best mods done (notches, calibrated sticks, cut trigger springs, etc) can cost well over 300 dollars, I'd say no, not everyone can get them. That's if you wanna stick to gamecube controllers, of course, but cheatboxes ain't cheap either.
@@Buljubut box controllers are greatly cheaper? So its easier for people to get into in comparison to a custom gc. Boxes can range from 100-200 depending where you buy it from.
Modded controllers is 100% a no go but since a lot of the biggest smash players use them they let it slide. I see nothing wrong with Box controllers, they have a higher skill ceiling and def won’t make you a pro overnight.
I hope I one day find a girl that will tell people incredibly flattering stories about me that are as flattering as this videos use of "actually knows what he's talking about"
I can understand leffen argument. Is like having a mouse with recoil scripts. you struggle with recoil, while he beams you across the map with an high recoil weapon.
My opinion is that we shouldn’t allow any controller that enables you to do inputs which aren’t possible on a GameCube controller. Make it easier, I don’t care. Hold up and down at the same time, no.
We've already implemented ucf so taking it a step further with a patch called 1.03 could be the thing that bridges that gap between controller and box since ideally it would make most gccs function consistently
1.03 is great in theory but does have issues. Hax put a lot of odd stuff in there and while some changes are good it's definitely motivated by trying to make sure boxxs don't get banned. The other issue is the way it solves some problems is just sort of bad, snapping to max wavedash is bad and you can argue notches do that but our goal shouldn't be to make notches again, those are already dumb. I completely agree that it's stupid that there is a paywall but things are getting a lot more affordable as time goes on and designs get cheaper. Not perfect but any means and I fully understand supporting 1.03 but in my opinion as someone who makes controllers the mod is kinda fucked in a lot of ways. It also wouldn't fix some controllers depending on how scuffed they are.
@@Emphetic @Emphetic honestly i don't necessarily support 1.03 itself just something like it as ideally it would allow boxx players to carry on like usual and just make some things more consistent/possible on gcc. I agree 1.03 isn't perfect and might not be the answer but even as someone who only uses gcc for now it seems like the wrong choice to fuck a bunch of people's controllers bc they're "too consistent." It might be impossible but i think it's worth a shot to try and make gcc more consistent through software as we have already done with ucf than make boxx less consistent
Not everybody is built the same and aftermarket controllers are legal for every game I know of, so a controller can only be cheating if it does any of the playing for you through software. Hitboxes are available to everyone so they're not cheating.
I think esports are a great equalizer, where those with physical differences or impairments can compete on equal footing. Use whatever controller doesn't cause you pain to use. Evolution also keeps the game alive.
11:44 this clip cracks me up cause leffens airtime complaint after losing to hbox was minutes after losing. whilst in the vod hbox's complaining started before the match was even actually finished rofl
They should just be different formats based on the technology used. Why do tournament organizers just not supply all competitors with the same control, to keep consistency even between players? Seems like an easy step to implement.
I think its fair to experiment with controllers just like anything in the world that people compete in you want the best sht for the job and everyones needs is different
to have follow this topic since some time u did a good job, having a part with goowave and the other custom board that was ban would have be cool but that s still a quality video. ps: lefen doesn represent melee or aanybody in it and his opinion is often more wrong that true
Notches just make things reliable in a finicky game. And the box controllers are just an alternative, people need to stop crying and whining about things when they lose cough cough leffen
Using modded controllers or those box controllers would be like joining a boxing match where one guy uses basic hand wraps and the other guy brings brass knuckles
As someone from a different community (fps) I don't entirely understand how the Boxx style controllers are "cheating". if a style of controller is the most optimal way to play without having the controller literally do inputs that are impossible, while making inputs that are possible but inconsistent, at not the players fault, consistent, how is it "cheating"? I would think I, as a spectator, would want to watch two professionals play against eachother in the best scenarios where everything they input is correctly inputted. I would like to understand from people who are in the community
As someone who got a Box because of hand cramps, it isn't as easy to switch over for most people. The box style is something you would have to learn to use.
Because it's very different in fighting games. Fighting games are designed for a specific control scheme in mind, this is really obvious if you watch the crazy "guile walking forward and throwing sonic booms" videos when using a non-SOCD cleaner hitbox. The designers of that game designed it so that you had to move a physical lever to the back position and hold it and then let it go forward while hitting a punch button to release the special attack. They never imagined a controller would exist where you can have electronic signals via buttons hold both back and forward, it was designed for a physical lever hitting stoppers to make a direction happen. This is the same for Melee which falls on that spectrum of a fighting game. In an FPS game, it's universally known that people will have different peripherals that can be better or worse than others, but it's always designed for just one peripheral. You don't launch Counter Strike and play in the highest ranks and see someone with an xbox controller or something. It just doesn't happen, the peripheral(s) used for a game are a (usually) constant factor in the game design process. In a fighting game, the bare minimum to play it is to have the matching peripheral to control it. Whether this be a lever stick for older ones, or a GC controller, that is the bare minimum to enter but it's usually also the "hard limit" on what you are doing with the device because the designers didn't envision you to use something else. The game is designed behind a control scheme and that is basically always constant. When you have the ability to start modifying controllers to an extreme extent or in the extreme case using entire new ones it breaks down the playing field of competitive games into basically who can afford to buy that "better" device. If two opponents are match exactly the same, and are playing the same character in a 5-5 matchup (basically 50/50 win chance) but one person is able to do a set of inputs/tactics more consistently because their controller makes them less obtuse, you immediately are creating an advantage of one over the other. This isn't a case of "oh the other person should get better" because the other person in theory has the exact same level of mechanical skill for the actions, but because of their controller choice (rather because they don't want to switch or literally cannot afford to) they are now competitively disadvantaged over the other. This isn't a "Oh I need to upgrade from my $5 best buy mouse to a $40 budget mouse with a better sensor" these controllers like a B0xx can be hundreds of dollars with massive waiting lists. Making them can also be hard because they are confusing, the boards are hard to come by, or making cases from scratch is difficult for people who aren't skilled in that thing. Fighting games should have never let special input devices like hitboxes, crossups, boxxes etc be accepted because it's just been a slippery slope. You had a universal constant in the genre (the controllers the games were explicitly designed to use) and it was down to how someone could use these controllers to play properly and execute. Now you have people making a million reasons why they're "okay" to use because it doesn't "make you better" even though spending tens of hundreds of thousands of hours in a fighting game to do hard inputs/combos has always been a constant. And god forbid someone hits you with the "oh well it saves your wrist" or some garbage. Even middle school football players risk breaking something and not play their favorite sport ever again, god forbid fighting game players deal with a little bit of handpain every now and again that can be fixed with light stretching and taking care of yourself between sessions.
Imagine Halo 2 consistently had tournaments since launch, and 100% of players used the standard-issue Xbox controller. Then suddenly, someone shows up to an event with a mouse and keyboard. Everyone would immediately understand that should not be allowed. Not only are they using a controller that the game was not designed to work with (Halo 2 has mechanics like aim assist specifically to assist players aiming with thumbsticks), but that controller is giving them an immediate advantage over other players without them earning it through a practiced skill. The MnK player could try to argue that their aim with thumbsticks is too inconsistent, but no one is arguing that mouse improves their consistency. In fact, that is the entire problem. Just because it's more difficult to aim with a stick than a mouse doesn't mean it is some sort of flaw, it's just a different skill being tested. Aiming with a thumbstick where you have noticeable travel time if you want to do something like turn around 180 degrees is completely different from a mouse where you can immediately snap in any direction almost instantaneously. To bring it back to Melee, it used to be the case that you saw someone hit a shallow up-B angle and you were impressed. Not only did they put in tons of practice to know exactly where along the gate they need to hold their stick, but they did so risking the possibility of missing their angle entirely if they were slightly off. In modern Melee, you have notches which effectively serve as macros by allowing players to consistently hit extremely shallow angles with no risk, and then you also have box controllers which are even easier to hit consistently because you just press a button. If one of the primary skills a game has tested for over a decade is the ability to be precise with a control stick, how could it NOT be considered cheating to use a controller that has buttons for exact angles every single time?
good points i will say though saying about the boxx controllers being expensive. It’s actually fairly cheaper than getting a custom gamecube controller? So id thats not a fair argument. Unless your completely not okay with modded controllers in general. From my own research there are at least 5 box styles controllers that people can buy ranging from 100-200 dollars. Obviously still expensive but finding someone to customize your gc is far more. And box controllers still have to waiting list but that goes both ways on finding someone in your area or maybe in your region who can mod gc controllers.
why are we still dealing with "is hitbox cheating?" arguments? There is an Spanish phrase that translates to "what is equal is not an advantage" hitboxes are legal and if you don't want to use them well then that's your problem. I don't usually play fighting games but when I do I play with a keyboard, hitboxes are the closest things there are to a keyboard, If someone wants to jump from being a casual keyboard player to a serious controller player they will probably chose a hitbox.
@quicksilverGS im not saying that joystics and hitboxes are the same, there are clear differences and advantages between them, the one that I remember the most was being able to do shoryukens by just tapping down + K/P instead of the long sequence that I never learned. What I'm saying is that if hitboxes are legal its not an advantage to use them because your opponent can also use them, if they don't want to that's their problem. As I said, I'm not an experienced fighting gamer, however I used to compete in speedcubing like 10 years ago. 1 of the innovations that came was a magnetic cube which essentially snaps the rotations of the cube faces on 90 degrees, it helps you to not over/under rotate when performing an algorithm and it was a HUGE advantage. Now almost every serious speedcuber uses those cubes because not using them would be inefficient, the few that still use nonmagnetic cubes are having a hard time because they want to.
if I see another argument about banning hitboxes let me remind you its a custom keyboard for fighting games so if hitboxes get banned prepare to ban keyboards as well.
@@nuave I know a lot of players younger players at my locals that play with keyboards in other fighting games and personally I played rivals of aether and brawlhalla on keyboard and if I would jump into melee I would most likely also rather use a keyboard for that. So yes there are people who play with keyboard. No pro uses keyboard because a hitbox is just better for it in every way. the people who are on hitbox now have a high chance to just get a keyboard and play with that if hitboxes do get banned.
@@beamslashc677 There's very little chance that'll happen with melee because they play on official hardware. So unless you know about keyboards with gamecube ports then I think it's a non issue.
Imagine wasting hundreds of dollars on a controller only to get rekt by some random guy using a standard controller on Pools or Playoffs, oh those are the moments I enjoy the most.
I don't understand people like you. Can you not enjoy the game and play with a good controller? Who cares?? The people with these controllers are not claiming to be God gamers.
@@hobosnake1 Sorry, it is fun because a lot of people don't play well, they lack skill and knowledge but they think the gear would make them better by default, that is why it is really funny to me when that happens. I honestly don't care what controller people but the irony of wasting hundreds of dollars in a controller to have "an edge" and then some rando owning you with a default cheap one is really priceless.
I do not play melee; but the UCF is not a cure for shield notches, snap back capacitors etc. It is ONLY a cure for techniques that work at all or easier on "perfect" controllers. Notches, etc. is completely separate from what UCF aims to fix, it even says so.
The main thing about the hit box I understand is the accessibility and ergonomic argument, and it's hard to say anything against it. I understand the arguments against it on principle though, because it's a highly non-standard way to play, and it may actually give a real advantage. The problem with that is that it turns the meta into something that many players feel like a way they don't want to play the game. Particularly vs. something like notches, which are more of a cost thing. Like, what if the most optimal way to play was a sit pad where you control the game by flexing your butt cheeks, and it was legitimately meta. It'd be very understandable for players to be opposed, because obviously who actually *wants* to play the game that way? Even if it's better and has better ergonomics. I feel that's the thing with hit boxes, people look at it and think "this isn't a fun way to have to play Smash", but also feel compelled to learn to use it to not be disadvantaged.
Setting aside issues of competitive integrity I think its kinda funny that the melee scene of all scenes would be against a controller thats better for your hands.
Whenever someone tells you that melee is just a party game for casuals, remind them that it's the only competitive game that requires such precise inputs that you need an extremely specific type of controller that is neither too new or too worn out, in order to do those inputs consistently and perform and the highest level.
my take technology is constantly evolving. While some may prefer nostalgia with older controllers and arcade sticks, younger generations embrace these changes and make them even better and we only limit yourself with inputs from the past.
Outsiders perspective: Created controller based divisions. Break down modded controllers into groups by what mods they have. Boxes have their own division.
Maybe if Leffen didn't throw 30% of the worlds supply of controllers into the floor, we wouldn't have this problem.
😂
Based
Comment of the year tbh
We should've listened to Armada's last wish
Hahahaaaahhaa
Its funny to see how challenges from sports have come to esports as well. Hockey for example has gone through a similar debate, albeit a long time ago. Players would modify their sticks to put a curve at the end to allow for better puck control. Players and fans didnt universally love it but it was never outright banned. Same thing with when they changed from wooden sticks to the composite ones they use now. Its totally different than what the game was originally played with but I think it has raised the skill ceiling for those who are truly skilled. As time goes on people will find a way to modify their tools that gives them any advantage, especially in a competitive setting!
exactly, it's just people stuck up in old ways that don't want to accept nor conform to change. Look at Hal in Apex. Controllers in apex have (in my opinion) even MORE of a competitive advantage over KB&M than hitboxes do against gamecube controllers. The community/pros hate how broken controllers are due to Aim assist. So instead of bitching about it, Hal put in the time and effort to get good on controller to prove he's the Apex GOAT this year.
Endyrance running too now. With the the carbon fiber plate inside shoes that retain compression energy and very gently shoot your foot of the ground again with. Making you use 99.6% of the energy needed per step.
Repeat for 40 km and those .4% become huge
PC gamers and other FGC players can use whatever hardware they want. Smash exists in a weird Nintendo fanboy space😮 so I do understand the dedication to original hardware. If all GC controllers were the same, then something like a fight stick would be outside the spirit of the game. But since the Official controllers have no consistency in components, this is a no brainer. You must regulate the specifics of 3rd party controllers , but there is no question that they must allow them.
@@friedsensei I assure you very few Melee players are "Nintendo fanboys", if anything they are some of the greatest haters of Nintendo
I’m so glad another hockey guy thought of this exact example. Well put Evan I fully agree
So glad you mentioned UCF, truly one of the best innovations for this game and a very elegant solution.
ya to bad its slowly becoming out dated and the main team behind it is dead, we should really be using haxs 1.03
@@romantheranger2699 bro they literally just released a new version of ucf (0.84) very recently. what are you even talking about
@@romantheranger2699I think 1.03 is a little too ambitious, but I also it should be seriously considered
@@romantheranger2699IMO 1.03 has excellent diagnosis of Melee’s polling and input issues, but inelegant solutions.
@@calebrobinson6406 instead of considering it people should just start running it until it takes over. if it weren't for the hax leffen video 1.03 would already be universal by now, it just isn't adopted by association. all the stuff you might not like can be toggled off
I held a large magnet in the nearest room to make jmooks controller explode mid set.
I have a friend (He's not a pro or even trying to be a pro), yet he owns like 15 controllers with countless parts and stuff that he adjusts every time we play Smash.
It's actually mindboggling when you actually watch him talk about it. He even has a 3d printer that he uses to make parts (He says it's an utter disaster trying.
It's nuts how much time and money a person can invest into Gamecube controllers.
Dan Salvato is a legend, also mang0 has one of the most modded controllers in the scene so take his words with some salt lol
Every Melee pro uses a modded controller, and most of the modded controllers come from the same person. I would take Mango's word over Leffen, the perpetual complainer every day of my life.
Whatchu mean mango has one of the most modded controllers. Unless u just talking bout goomwaves in general?
To be fair, he calls both goomwaves and box controllers cheating.
all the top pros have very modded controllers because you have to at that level
@@chairwoodhe was one of the players who used goomwaves over phobs because he had a direct line to gooms, which is funny because the only one banned now out of boxxs, phobs and goomwaves are goomwaves because essentially they had built in macros
When it comes to the HitBox I remember distinctly hearing that one of the major advantages of it was ergonomics. As SEVERAL smash bro's players had suffered injuries from playing the game, and that this hitbox offered them a way to play without being in pain from conditions like arthritis
Depends on the iteration. The wasd smashbox was horrendous and is why Hax pushed the b0xx through, but once the b0xx layout and variations of its spacing became standard most controllers are pretty solid.
The current concern is basically from the nerf proposals turning the ergonomic input sequences on the b0xx layout into unergonomic sequences without having particular balance impact to a degree that the "optimal nerfware setup" should be more competitively strong than the hax patch b0xx while having horrendous ergonomics in comparison.
still an unfair advantage
@@LaFlarb What is actually unfair about it? If digital controllers were that much better in a competitive game where they're allowed we'd be seeing more players at top level with them.
In particular, hax patch b0xx has always been nerfed far beyond the bounds the ruleset requires and, again, we're not even seeing sudden domination by cheater digital controllers much less b0xxes.
I'm just not seeing a world where the advantage or disadvantage of choosing a b0xx is so great that it supersedes being the better player in a set. Individual player variation even at similar skill levels just seems to be much higher than controller power variation now that people aren't using real cheater controllers like goomwaves.
@@sunderkeenin if you play a space animal it’s ridiculously easy to do shine out of shield, JC shine, and multi shines compared to trying to do that on a controller for example. Stuff like that is where u have a clear advantage. Like yea the more skilled player will generally win but there are clear cut advantages. Dashing back out of crouch for free is another busted advantage of box controllers.
@@LaFlarb in exchange for a less intuitive controller, having to do rocket science for your less flexible recovery angles, having an explicitly inferior wavedash angle, and having overall inferior DI options(iirc there was good slight DI on sheik specifically), long lockout on pivot utilt among other nerfs if you check hax patch specifically.
F1 didn't do the pivot utilt nerf, for example, and the smashbox is basically actually a cheater controller lol.
There's unique upsides to b0xx, and there's unique upsides to gcc. I'm still a fan of 1.03 to make things more even without removing the uniqueness which makes the controller comfortable to use, but even without 1.03 it just doesn't seem to be a big enough difference to justify making the controller awful to use.
The other big funny people keep forgetting is that the "nerfware" is as far as we can tell significantly more competitively powerful than current hax patch and not a single one of the nerf proposals from the committee disallows making firmware even more powerful than the "nerfware".
The "nerfware" is more about giving digital controller players an awful ergonomic and gameplay experience than about balancing the Melee scene.
used to be a TO for some melee locals.
can confirm: 2/3 of my gc controllers are from Japan lol
my current one is lol, Just had to buy a new smashu one. I’ve gutted all of my original ones from 2001-02
Dude… what a big ol’ headache…
Man, I love dipping into random communities occasionally to watch a video about a current problem or hot topic. In this case, I'm not even playing Melee, but it's fascinating to see what's going on in their “world” and appreciate the effort, experience, and history involved in all of this. So interesting!
As a 3 year smashbox controller user, it does feel very good to use and there are objective advantages. Though small, they can accumulate in those cutting edge situations. The drawbacks are real too, but situational and in some cases may not matter.
Why do I permanently use my smashbox / crossup box controllers then? It is 100% because of my wrists and hands. I use my hands exhaustively in my daily life, taken further using the switch pro controller daily which left my hand and fingers numb regularly. I developed carpal tunnel and couldn't hold things like milk gallons without quickly exhausting my hands for the day.
Using the smashbox controller turned that around so fast. Yes, I can technically push myself even harder to get the most out of the benefits, making my wrists worse despite the smashbox controller. However instead, I distribute the work across my fingers better allowing me to play with better endurance, which I would otherwise be behind average on due to my wrist issue.
Thank you HitBox Arcade for making the smashbox. Now that my years in smash are over, accelerated by Nintendo's continued apathy towards the tournament scene compared to companies like Valve, Im going on to use it in other games like Tekken 8.
I’m in the exact same situation.
"BOXX CONTROLLERS SHOULD BE BANNED! BOXX USERS SHOULD HAVE ALL THEIR HANDS BREAK RIGHT NOW!" These kinds of people never consider the reason controllers like this exist, disabilities. And they don't consider how yes, these controllers have advantages they also have disadvantages.
I mean I do straight up think they are better than gc controllers. The disadvantages are marginal, like less wavedash length control and things im not qualified to talk about. But yeah the boxx has revitalized the long term careers of some of the scenes most important players and allowed them to continue with the game they love. Box controllers are better than game cube controllers, but lets not also forget that game cube controllers and melees button layout kinda suck for the way melee is played in the modern meta. There needs to be a serious discussion about the standardization of things like z jump, rebindable buttons, and universal box standards if we want this game to go as far as it can into the future. @@Andrew12105
@@jakobhammer3038 right. I remember some considering the goomwave as cheating too but the people who thought they were fine was people who considering the boxx as cheating (despite both being able to do things the oem controllers couldn't do) like a certain popular melee player who I won't name here, I personally find it hypocritical
"Are Melee players allergic to change?" I mean, they still play Melee, so that answers your question.
I used to think the same thing but then I started playing melee and realized that it is built so much better for competitive play with a much higher skill ceiling. And it makes sense because Nintendo was trying to make their newer smash games less competitive and more casual.
lol
Backwards change (i.e. newer entries in the smash series) isn't good change though.
Ntm they actually think the world revolves around them and get so whiny when things don't go their way.
more like allergic to soap
I mean, if you REALLY wanted to ban them you COULD inspect every player's controller. That's not THAT difficult a thing to do. I'm speaking about tournaments.
Newer box style controllers are not an issue for the most part. I am sure that there are some that give an advantage but I definitely don't think box/smashbox style controllers are "cheating". It's also a barrier for entry due to the low amount of good gamecube controllers and the amount people are willing to charge for them. It also helps players to avoid damaging their hands, which has happened to some pros in the past due to the executional requirements of the game.
If someone wants to take the time to learn the insane smashbox, more power to them and good for them for saving their hands.
As a longtime player, I actually have slightly more concerns about button remapping or phobs than boxes
But frankly at the end of the day, whatever controller you use, the better player on that day is still almost always going to win regardless
Analog input will always provide more challenges than tactile button presses. Especially in a game where finding a specific coordinate on the analog stick can be the difference between an SD and a ledgedash. Controllers have too much control over the outcome of a match.
@@Materialist39that’s a weird perspective bc a boxx is like remapping every single button on a oem at once
Box style controllers are not good for your hands. They are good specifically for hax’s condition, which has to do with his thumb joint. Any ergonomics specialist will tell you that pronated wrists lead to a higher rate of injury and RSI. The handshake position is best for your hands, and for box controllers to be ergonomic, they should at bare minimum be tented. In their current form, they are worse for your hands and wrists than a gamecube controller
You should see the goomwave. That controller almost plays the game for you.
until it plays against you and just breaks
As for the phob. We do need some work to make them better. I think a lot of the problem comes from builders who dont know what solder to use or using the wrong specs when having the PCBs made. I built my own phob and its been great. It took a while to get it calibrated but once i got that done ive had no issues.
As for Leffen and whatever he says in literally anything just ignore it. He is either 100% correct or 100% wrong. Nothing against him there just that he is not a good source of information or community sentiment.
i mean, if hes 100% correct or 100% wrong, we should DEFINITELY listen to him, lmao. Hes 100% right half of the time, thats insane.
Imagine my surprise hearing how much these guys spend on modded controllers while i play Melee casually (Slippi) using an old PS4 Remote with some stick drift 😂
Yeah this is not a problem for anyone who isnt a pro player like most people cant hit melee tech consistently enough to need a super consistent modded controller
I've been playing melee for nearly 10 years and my controller is basically shit and it doesn't especially bother me. I think it's mostly a personality thing. That and if you're a super elite player, you need a very good controller. 99% of players it's just not relevant.
@@mymyscellanytbh i am pretty bad at melee, but i recently got a real used controller compared to the fake one i previously had and it seriously improved my enjoyment of the game in a lot of areas. but tbh past having just a real one i rlly cannot understand spending massive amounts of money if you're not a content creator or a comp player
As long as the controller has 1:1 inputs I don’t care how many buttons you put on it or what shape you decide to put it in. Speaking accessibility, controllers being 100% customizable with everything from size and shape all the way down to button choice in size, placement, and type is a huge mega win for gaming at all levels.
If someone is using a non 1:1 by utilizing macros and combo inputs then I do take issue as it brings into question the legitimacy of their inputs as a whole.
Custom notches at specific angles don’t bother me either, if I showed up to a COD tournament and put a red sticker on my screen for sniping am I cheating?
I don't how you can equate a red sticker in the middle of your screen to a controller that gives you easily spammable frame-one invincible moves, which can be used in literally almost any situation. Sure you can spam shine on a normal conch, but the boxx is like training wheels for spacies. Hard tech like perfect Shine OoS, Jc shines, multi-shine on shield, becomes trivialized on a box.
Instead of the useless sticker analogy, Imagine a cod player rolling up to a tournament with a controller that made snaking easier, whilst also giving the precision that a mouse offers. It would be 1:1, but wouldn't a mouse be unfair when playing such a fast TTK fps like COD, when 99% of players are on a controller?
Weird how stuff like XIM was banned in casual console gaming.
@@Domeroto1 XIM was banned because you could actually cheat using it. Like auto counter recoil cheat.
The argument against different controllers shouldn't be "it was harder for me to learn on a sub-par controller, so everyone should have it that hard." I swear that should be called the boomer fallacy.
@@Domeroto1I'm all for a controller that favors spacies
Just a note for the editors: Leffen is probably one of the most biased, unreliable sources of information on box-style controllers. I wouldn't base a 14 minute video on his opinion.
Considering he hasn't even won a major since 2019 and has consistently placed lower than top 8 in recent years lol
@@isuck6049 leffen won a major this year and in 2022 so what? Maybe youre confusing him with m2k and armada in this video who retired in 2018 and those video clips are all pre 2019 too.
but regardless. leffen is super bias lol. Heck hax might be part of the reason he hates boxes so bad.
Leffen is a super biased and doesn't deserve any attention about this topic.
@@Firelove7k man, i remember when bait was believable
@@Firelove7k he wants to have an "air stalling limit" so jigglypuff isn't allowed to move around you in the air anymore lol
There was a hitbox/mixbox issue in streetfighter a while ago bc you could hold forward and back at the same time which would allow you to block while moving or start charge moves earlier because of this iirc.
Yeah it's annoying to fight against a guile using hitbox
no you can't all tourny legal hitboxes have socc, and SF5 and VI have software SOCC that will nullify anything that doesn't have it. EG you plug in an old PS\2 Keyboard you can't press 4-6 at the same time it will = neutral in said game. It's only older games that lack that it.
The guy that actually knows what he is talking about. The video editor XD knows everything.
Coming moreso from other fighting games, and playing them on keyboard, I can see how it's an advantage to have a purely consistent controller. However, Haxx$ made "The Boxx", which intentionally is nerfed for melee, making it a much more viable alternative to the gamecube controller. It's a hard question to answer, but especially in melee, I believe that it makes far less of a difference. Anywhos, FGs are awesome, and you're awesome if you play any of them, no matter your controller
What did they do to nerf it
@@kiranearitachi he did some things like making it impossible to press 1 button to desync your ice climbers, making it take more frames to instant shield job and pivot tilt, and making it so you don't have a perfect full length wavedash. there's a video called "Hax$ Shows Perfect Wavedash On The B0XX" that shows how an unnerfed boxx is
I'm okay with box controllers simply because they are products that are still being made, that can still be bought. At a certain point, Gamecube controllers won't be available to anyone, and the playerbase will have to accept that other types of controllers will have to be used instead. Banning any non-oem controllers would be like forcing all tournaments to play the game on Gamecubes with the original Melee disc. At a certain point, it's just not viable to cling to components, hardware and software that you can no longer buy.
My man, they allow you to replace the motherboard and do pretty much whatever the fuck you want to them. It's the goddamn wild west because 99.9999999999% of the smash community have no clue what they're actually talking about. Anyone with basic knowledge of electronics went 'uh oh' the instant they noticed you could replace parts for 'accessibility reasons' or use parts from controllers that don't aren't even gamecube controllers. There's nothing really stopping someone from push button cheating. Considering this has already happened in other games with FAR more knowledgeable and vast player bases... yikes. It's not a question of when someone cheats it's how long have they been cheating.
Melee community: Damn these controllers suck, I wish there was something we could do to make them more consistent
Hax: Here I made this B0XX that is totally consistent
MC: Noooooo it's TOO consistent and better than GC controllers so its overpowered!
Hax: Here I made 1.03 so that GC controllers are on par with the B0XX
MC: Noooooo you're a crazy person we aren't using that
The solution already exists. Melee community just sucks
Worth noting that Dan Salvato of UCF is the same one from Doki Doki Literature Clube! Very fun fact.
oh damn thats nuts W
He's also a top level Yoshi's Story speedrunner
Dan Salvato is not just saying game dev, he's the dev behind Doki Doki Literature Club
Would love you guys to do a vid on the 5 gods of fighting games Daigo, Nuki, Sako, Haitani, Tokido. The 5 Gods of Melee term was inspired by these guys. They all played more than just Steet Fighter too. Not so much these days as there's more at stake but back in the day they were on another level.
Here is my take, the input devices in any game will evolve over time. As long as there isn't software that presses buttons for you or any macros that allow you to execute combos with one button its not cheating, its still the player making ALL the inputs.
Agreed. If everyone can do it, it’s not cheating. Anybody can cut notches, anybody can use a hitbox. In this sense the hitbox may be more fair than standard controllers with their chaotic randomness.
The smash community can be very elite towards the gcc. Literally take any smasher to a venue hosting a tourney for another fighting game and their eyes will pop from all the diversity of controllers...
not "any" games, arcade games will force you you play on the cab with it's inputs (like over at KAC)
the thing is, mechanical skill is also a huge factor to what makes competitive play... competitive, beyond just making the better decisions, some people can just do stuff that's too hard for others to pull off, and quite often the "mechanical difficulty" of certain maneuvers is directly related to the control scheme
a more popular example of this is where mouse and keyboard is actually banned for console FPS tournaments even if consoles support that input nowadays, because aiming with a stick is simply much harder than aiming with a mouse, and stick aim is something people want to be able to compete in
@@maxtague7278 Anyone can install a piece of software
But if the equipment makes it much easier to make those inputs, something you couldnt do without it, thats a huge deal.
Like if i use a mouse and keyboard in an FPS game im still making all the inputs but its undeniable that i wouldnt be able to do the same things if i was using a controller.
Tournaments should supply controllers. Everyone gets a built and verifided-to-work controller. No dopey mods, it just works as it should. Simple as. That change would eliminate controller modding as there'd be no point to cheating outside of tournaments where you'd suddenly have a huge disadvantage.
This dude is over here looking like a Fable trader on the way to Barrow Fields.
I think keyboard style boxes with mtx silver switches and extremely short travels are the ultimate.
Damn, and I thought us Halo 2 kids were nerdy with our OG Xbox controllers haha. This is in a whole other league.
There are some things to note. These types of modifications were illegal in the mlg days or the golden era of halo. Same thing for cod. It wasn't until Scuf started throwing money at mlg they were unbanned for cod. And then unbanned for halo years after but this was during either reach or h4 era i forget. maybe even 2010 h3 but scufs didnt really matter since its only h2 and h1 where they would have been good.
But yeah i've seen custom homegrown controllers in the ce and h2 era where they were basically just scuf controllers or had remapping. And of course mlg events weren't every single halo event (world cyber gamers idk about, and then like just big local tournaments or lans). and btw 1/3 of the smash community hates remapping too. Bunch of boomers saying you should get hand pain clawing. The most popular one is remapping the z button (right bumper on 360) to jump so you can jump and aerial without moving fingers which allows for much more consistent frame 1 aerials. I'd say its about the same impact if you remapped x and b to left and right bumper on a 360 controller end of era halo2. definitely more impactful than just mapping only a or only b to right bumper even tho thats still huge in h2.
Halo isn't even a nerdy game, it's the most surface level gaming community next to COD.
Every time homeboy comes on screen the more evil villain that curly mustache becomes
My power grows daily. First this site, then the internet, and then the world!!
Just remember us little folks when you rule the world
@@theScore_Colten
melee is a cargo cult at this point
Yes more melee content please!!
came for the melee, stayed for the stache
And thus, the stache stays.
@@theScore_Colten LFG
As a non competitive smash player who over years has worn through many many original game cube controllers analog sticks. The best solution I have found is to replace the original stick using a Wii nunchuck analog stick. The rubber is connected entirely differently and has extended the lifetime of my sticks by what feels like 10x . Maybe someone finds this helpful.
2:52 this is the first real person i have ever seen in life to use hair gel in his mustache lol
I play on an Xbox controller. I find it hard to imagine switching to a GC controller or whatever would make such a big diff. Maybe if I were a top-tier player, I'd see the difference, but as a very mediocre player, I think focusing on the fundamentals is much more important. I'll worry about controllers when I reach gold rank
Im very pro hitbox style pads but I'm still on the line with how to allow multiple angled inputs for the crazier movement. I don't know how youd really be able to test the code to make sure its compliant, I think the most you could ask is to limit the number of buttons total allowed on the box.
By having approved open source code
The solution is simple, standard design specifications agreed by the tournament organizers. Controllers should have standard spring lengths, button sizes, notches, etc.
It's clear the scene will last for decades to come and OEM hardware will be harder and harder to find and players will be forced to use 3 party controllers.
I think hit boxes are fine to a limit. No macros, no dual input, can't do anything that an OEM controller can't do. So buttons that can let a player go right or left are fine, but buttons that let's someone to immediately do up+B attacks with one button are illegal since that's two inputs with one button press.
Accessibility is important so we need hit boxes but there has to be a limit for competitive play
Just because a controller looks OEM does not mean it is. Besides, they can always make two different brackets
So this has always been my thing cuz I've played a few fighting games. The argument with the boxx/fightsticks is your getting mad at punishing you for your habits more consistently.
They aren't out smarting you which is why no matter how many boxes there are, we have the same top 6 players using controllers. Boxes don't make you smarter they just allow more people to play at a top level tech wise.
But melee has never been a game determined by how many techs you can do. It's always been who out smarts who in the moment.
I'm "ok" with boxes because I've never felt as if someone has beaten me because they had a better controller. I've always been beaten cuz they read my roll, they read my dash back, they baited my approach.
Every time I think about getting on Smash I remember just how crazy complete it is…
To get back to the sports analogy, the hitbox vs even modded/hand-crafted controllers seems more like bringing a cricket bat up to home plate at a baseball game instead of a baseball bat. It's radically different hardware.
Its not about whether or not a scrub becomes a god with an unfair controller. Its about whether a top 100 player suddenly becomes a top 25 player. Its not about the lower ranked players and never has been. Giving even a slight advantage at the top level is massive.
Spot on
But everyone can get one and learn how to play with them, right? Part of any competetive scene is adaptation, so i really dont get the hate.
@@thomaskopv2366Well, considering the top-tier, custom-made controllers with all the best mods done (notches, calibrated sticks, cut trigger springs, etc) can cost well over 300 dollars, I'd say no, not everyone can get them. That's if you wanna stick to gamecube controllers, of course, but cheatboxes ain't cheap either.
@@BuljuBut if a top 100 can afford one, i cant see how a top 10 cant
@@Buljubut box controllers are greatly cheaper? So its easier for people to get into in comparison to a custom gc. Boxes can range from 100-200 depending where you buy it from.
Modded controllers is 100% a no go but since a lot of the biggest smash players use them they let it slide. I see nothing wrong with Box controllers, they have a higher skill ceiling and def won’t make you a pro overnight.
Glad Asumsaus got time in the sun here. His videos are my favorite melee content by far
Finally a Different Cracked episode! Its always shooters in here...
I hope I one day find a girl that will tell people incredibly flattering stories about me that are as flattering as this videos use of "actually knows what he's talking about"
I can understand leffen argument. Is like having a mouse with recoil scripts. you struggle with recoil, while he beams you across the map with an high recoil weapon.
I'd absolutely never be friends with someone THIS obsessed with Melee.
In a competitive enviorment everyone should be using the same contoller set just for a level playing field
My opinion is that we shouldn’t allow any controller that enables you to do inputs which aren’t possible on a GameCube controller. Make it easier, I don’t care. Hold up and down at the same time, no.
when all the top players get into their 50s and touching a gamecube controller causes their hands to burn they will want box to be legal
4:40 calling them Smashers gave me a good laugh
This explains so much why smash felt so finicky in it's movements all this time..
Nah that Colton guy looks like a 90’s cartoon villain with that nasty mustache
If only melee players put this much effort into showering...
what a funny and original comment. !
We've already implemented ucf so taking it a step further with a patch called 1.03 could be the thing that bridges that gap between controller and box since ideally it would make most gccs function consistently
Somebody is watching a lot of Hax’s videos I see.
1.03 is great in theory but does have issues. Hax put a lot of odd stuff in there and while some changes are good it's definitely motivated by trying to make sure boxxs don't get banned. The other issue is the way it solves some problems is just sort of bad, snapping to max wavedash is bad and you can argue notches do that but our goal shouldn't be to make notches again, those are already dumb. I completely agree that it's stupid that there is a paywall but things are getting a lot more affordable as time goes on and designs get cheaper. Not perfect but any means and I fully understand supporting 1.03 but in my opinion as someone who makes controllers the mod is kinda fucked in a lot of ways. It also wouldn't fix some controllers depending on how scuffed they are.
@@Emphetic @Emphetic honestly i don't necessarily support 1.03 itself just something like it as ideally it would allow boxx players to carry on like usual and just make some things more consistent/possible on gcc. I agree 1.03 isn't perfect and might not be the answer but even as someone who only uses gcc for now it seems like the wrong choice to fuck a bunch of people's controllers bc they're "too consistent." It might be impossible but i think it's worth a shot to try and make gcc more consistent through software as we have already done with ucf than make boxx less consistent
Friends don't let friends have that mustache. Holy shit.
The moment that moustache appeared was the moment I closed the video 🤢🤷♂
That guy saying he's not going to play like it was going to stop everyone else lmao
Kind of reminds me of racers and racecars. You want the best of both.
the gamecube controller is the reason i didnt get into melee like that
Not everybody is built the same and aftermarket controllers are legal for every game I know of, so a controller can only be cheating if it does any of the playing for you through software. Hitboxes are available to everyone so they're not cheating.
I think esports are a great equalizer, where those with physical differences or impairments can compete on equal footing. Use whatever controller doesn't cause you pain to use. Evolution also keeps the game alive.
We all know that if leffen developed hand problems and started using a lever less, the melee community would be supportive of him
11:44 this clip cracks me up cause leffens airtime complaint after losing to hbox was minutes after losing. whilst in the vod hbox's complaining started before the match was even actually finished rofl
smash is the only community where an arcade stick used for decades for fighting games, is seen as cheating LOL
They should just be different formats based on the technology used.
Why do tournament organizers just not supply all competitors with the same control, to keep consistency even between players? Seems like an easy step to implement.
He looks like an early 1900s villain about to tie the girl to the train traxs
I think its fair to experiment with controllers just like anything in the world that people compete in you want the best sht for the job and everyones needs is different
If dude's moustache isn't just a joke for the video, that's a bit fucked.
It's just a moustache.
@@theScore_Colten that thing is going to make someone dizzy. "JUST" a moustache he says.
LOL Controller players are threatened of a keyboard just being better they call it cheating.
hitboxes are here to stay, so either adapt or shut up. They have been around almost 6 years now.
to have follow this topic since some time u did a good job, having a part with goowave and the other custom board that was ban would have be cool but that s still a quality video.
ps: lefen doesn represent melee or aanybody in it and his opinion is often more wrong that true
Notches just make things reliable in a finicky game. And the box controllers are just an alternative, people need to stop crying and whining about things when they lose cough cough leffen
It was nice on part of Salvador Dali to participate in the vid
Using modded controllers or those box controllers would be like joining a boxing match where one guy uses basic hand wraps and the other guy brings brass knuckles
I like how Yuko Yurei's in the background
Me too.
As someone from a different community (fps) I don't entirely understand how the Boxx style controllers are "cheating". if a style of controller is the most optimal way to play without having the controller literally do inputs that are impossible, while making inputs that are possible but inconsistent, at not the players fault, consistent, how is it "cheating"? I would think I, as a spectator, would want to watch two professionals play against eachother in the best scenarios where everything they input is correctly inputted. I would like to understand from people who are in the community
As someone who got a Box because of hand cramps, it isn't as easy to switch over for most people. The box style is something you would have to learn to use.
@@Changebeetle well yes that makes sense, but why the hate?? Your using a input method that is consistent.
Because it's very different in fighting games. Fighting games are designed for a specific control scheme in mind, this is really obvious if you watch the crazy "guile walking forward and throwing sonic booms" videos when using a non-SOCD cleaner hitbox. The designers of that game designed it so that you had to move a physical lever to the back position and hold it and then let it go forward while hitting a punch button to release the special attack. They never imagined a controller would exist where you can have electronic signals via buttons hold both back and forward, it was designed for a physical lever hitting stoppers to make a direction happen. This is the same for Melee which falls on that spectrum of a fighting game. In an FPS game, it's universally known that people will have different peripherals that can be better or worse than others, but it's always designed for just one peripheral. You don't launch Counter Strike and play in the highest ranks and see someone with an xbox controller or something. It just doesn't happen, the peripheral(s) used for a game are a (usually) constant factor in the game design process.
In a fighting game, the bare minimum to play it is to have the matching peripheral to control it. Whether this be a lever stick for older ones, or a GC controller, that is the bare minimum to enter but it's usually also the "hard limit" on what you are doing with the device because the designers didn't envision you to use something else. The game is designed behind a control scheme and that is basically always constant. When you have the ability to start modifying controllers to an extreme extent or in the extreme case using entire new ones it breaks down the playing field of competitive games into basically who can afford to buy that "better" device. If two opponents are match exactly the same, and are playing the same character in a 5-5 matchup (basically 50/50 win chance) but one person is able to do a set of inputs/tactics more consistently because their controller makes them less obtuse, you immediately are creating an advantage of one over the other. This isn't a case of "oh the other person should get better" because the other person in theory has the exact same level of mechanical skill for the actions, but because of their controller choice (rather because they don't want to switch or literally cannot afford to) they are now competitively disadvantaged over the other.
This isn't a "Oh I need to upgrade from my $5 best buy mouse to a $40 budget mouse with a better sensor" these controllers like a B0xx can be hundreds of dollars with massive waiting lists. Making them can also be hard because they are confusing, the boards are hard to come by, or making cases from scratch is difficult for people who aren't skilled in that thing. Fighting games should have never let special input devices like hitboxes, crossups, boxxes etc be accepted because it's just been a slippery slope. You had a universal constant in the genre (the controllers the games were explicitly designed to use) and it was down to how someone could use these controllers to play properly and execute. Now you have people making a million reasons why they're "okay" to use because it doesn't "make you better" even though spending tens of hundreds of thousands of hours in a fighting game to do hard inputs/combos has always been a constant. And god forbid someone hits you with the "oh well it saves your wrist" or some garbage. Even middle school football players risk breaking something and not play their favorite sport ever again, god forbid fighting game players deal with a little bit of handpain every now and again that can be fixed with light stretching and taking care of yourself between sessions.
Imagine Halo 2 consistently had tournaments since launch, and 100% of players used the standard-issue Xbox controller. Then suddenly, someone shows up to an event with a mouse and keyboard. Everyone would immediately understand that should not be allowed. Not only are they using a controller that the game was not designed to work with (Halo 2 has mechanics like aim assist specifically to assist players aiming with thumbsticks), but that controller is giving them an immediate advantage over other players without them earning it through a practiced skill.
The MnK player could try to argue that their aim with thumbsticks is too inconsistent, but no one is arguing that mouse improves their consistency. In fact, that is the entire problem. Just because it's more difficult to aim with a stick than a mouse doesn't mean it is some sort of flaw, it's just a different skill being tested. Aiming with a thumbstick where you have noticeable travel time if you want to do something like turn around 180 degrees is completely different from a mouse where you can immediately snap in any direction almost instantaneously.
To bring it back to Melee, it used to be the case that you saw someone hit a shallow up-B angle and you were impressed. Not only did they put in tons of practice to know exactly where along the gate they need to hold their stick, but they did so risking the possibility of missing their angle entirely if they were slightly off. In modern Melee, you have notches which effectively serve as macros by allowing players to consistently hit extremely shallow angles with no risk, and then you also have box controllers which are even easier to hit consistently because you just press a button. If one of the primary skills a game has tested for over a decade is the ability to be precise with a control stick, how could it NOT be considered cheating to use a controller that has buttons for exact angles every single time?
good points i will say though saying about the boxx controllers being expensive. It’s actually fairly cheaper than getting a custom gamecube controller? So id thats not a fair argument. Unless your completely not okay with modded controllers in general. From my own research there are at least 5 box styles controllers that people can buy ranging from 100-200 dollars. Obviously still expensive but finding someone to customize your gc is far more. And box controllers still have to waiting list but that goes both ways on finding someone in your area or maybe in your region who can mod gc controllers.
why are we still dealing with "is hitbox cheating?" arguments? There is an Spanish phrase that translates to "what is equal is not an advantage" hitboxes are legal and if you don't want to use them well then that's your problem. I don't usually play fighting games but when I do I play with a keyboard, hitboxes are the closest things there are to a keyboard, If someone wants to jump from being a casual keyboard player to a serious controller player they will probably chose a hitbox.
@quicksilverGS im not saying that joystics and hitboxes are the same, there are clear differences and advantages between them, the one that I remember the most was being able to do shoryukens by just tapping down + K/P instead of the long sequence that I never learned.
What I'm saying is that if hitboxes are legal its not an advantage to use them because your opponent can also use them, if they don't want to that's their problem.
As I said, I'm not an experienced fighting gamer, however I used to compete in speedcubing like 10 years ago. 1 of the innovations that came was a magnetic cube which essentially snaps the rotations of the cube faces on 90 degrees, it helps you to not over/under rotate when performing an algorithm and it was a HUGE advantage. Now almost every serious speedcuber uses those cubes because not using them would be inefficient, the few that still use nonmagnetic cubes are having a hard time because they want to.
Just don't ask any clone hero/YARG/Guitar hero top players for modding controllers.
Been watching for a long time for the CS content but this melee video finally got me to sub GG
My GameCube controller came with humbuckers
i already knew leffen in the thumbnail was about to brew comments 😭
if I see another argument about banning hitboxes let me remind you its a custom keyboard for fighting games so if hitboxes get banned prepare to ban keyboards as well.
What pro uses a keyboard? It's not gonna be banned on slippi. It'll be banned tournaments
@@nuave I know a lot of players younger players at my locals that play with keyboards in other fighting games and personally I played rivals of aether and brawlhalla on keyboard and if I would jump into melee I would most likely also rather use a keyboard for that. So yes there are people who play with keyboard. No pro uses keyboard because a hitbox is just better for it in every way. the people who are on hitbox now have a high chance to just get a keyboard and play with that if hitboxes do get banned.
@@nuave it's a legitimate way to play on the PC version of the fighting games. thats why
@@beamslashc677 brawlhalla is made for keyboard players, smash bros is not
@@beamslashc677 There's very little chance that'll happen with melee because they play on official hardware. So unless you know about keyboards with gamecube ports then I think it's a non issue.
Imagine wasting hundreds of dollars on a controller only to get rekt by some random guy using a standard controller on Pools or Playoffs, oh those are the moments I enjoy the most.
I don't understand people like you. Can you not enjoy the game and play with a good controller? Who cares?? The people with these controllers are not claiming to be God gamers.
@@hobosnake1 Sorry, it is fun because a lot of people don't play well, they lack skill and knowledge but they think the gear would make them better by default, that is why it is really funny to me when that happens.
I honestly don't care what controller people but the irony of wasting hundreds of dollars in a controller to have "an edge" and then some rando owning you with a default cheap one is really priceless.
I do not play melee; but the UCF is not a cure for shield notches, snap back capacitors etc.
It is ONLY a cure for techniques that work at all or easier on "perfect" controllers. Notches, etc. is completely separate from what UCF aims to fix, it even says so.
Golten has the face of a young man but the voice of 60 years old
The main thing about the hit box I understand is the accessibility and ergonomic argument, and it's hard to say anything against it.
I understand the arguments against it on principle though, because it's a highly non-standard way to play, and it may actually give a real advantage. The problem with that is that it turns the meta into something that many players feel like a way they don't want to play the game. Particularly vs. something like notches, which are more of a cost thing.
Like, what if the most optimal way to play was a sit pad where you control the game by flexing your butt cheeks, and it was legitimately meta. It'd be very understandable for players to be opposed, because obviously who actually *wants* to play the game that way? Even if it's better and has better ergonomics.
I feel that's the thing with hit boxes, people look at it and think "this isn't a fun way to have to play Smash", but also feel compelled to learn to use it to not be disadvantaged.
A waxed moustache is fine and all, but that is just taking it too far.
He looks ridiculous
And yet, I won't stop.
@@andrewkielbasowycz1915 agreed.
I agree, it is hard to let go. @@theScore_Colten
Colton out here looking like a minor One Piece villain.
Notches sound like cheating to me.
Setting aside issues of competitive integrity I think its kinda funny that the melee scene of all scenes would be against a controller thats better for your hands.
Whenever someone tells you that melee is just a party game for casuals, remind them that it's the only competitive game that requires such precise inputs that you need an extremely specific type of controller that is neither too new or too worn out, in order to do those inputs consistently and perform and the highest level.
my take technology is constantly evolving. While some may prefer nostalgia with older controllers and arcade sticks, younger generations embrace these changes and make them even better and we only limit yourself with inputs from the past.
Leffen would complain about the air his opponent breaths.
Outsiders perspective:
Created controller based divisions.
Break down modded controllers into groups by what mods they have.
Boxes have their own division.