A MESSAGE TO CHRIS, ON COMBAT [STAR CITIZEN MASTER MODES]
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
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I was an instructor at a go kart track. When I first started there the karts were quite fast and alot of fun. We had lots of pro and almost pro drivers showing up to enjoy. Some were coming out several times a week. Many of my students could run right with them. I worked very hard teaching people how to go faster. Eventually casuals who thought they were "good drivers" were complaining that the "fast guys" where cheating because they were beating them by too much. I was told to slow the karts down by management. All the pro drivers immediately got bored an left. The casuals would now show up once and feel good about themselves cause they were close to the top times and never come back. The track shut down a few months later. This is master modes in a nutshell. People would rather cry than admit to themselves there's a skill gap. Then when they get what they want they think it is fun cause they "win", but then they quit because it is boring. I will say I sucked at the old flight model but it was exciting to see all the skill I could gain to try to compete with guys like AOne and I was getting better. Now I do better but I haven't even opened the launcher in a month or 2.
This is so painfully accurate it almost physically hurts to read this!
@@peterleblanc661
The difference is star citizen is not a one trick pony like go kart track racing..Hell people don’t even use the damn kart track in star citizen anyway😭
There are many game loops and a few people offended by combat changes is not gonna break the game. Not to mention the way the overall experience is now, people are already managing their time in and out of the game because they are bored due to lack of general content, not because a particular game loop has disappointed them..
@@saleseng I don't come back because of MM and it's a whim of cig . The previous flight model was not perfect but make sense what do we have now ? We trad a big learning curve with tons of exchange between players like A1 e.g for a thing that promise a lot but deliver nothing but pain and i don't think people who dislike MM are the minority . If they don't roll back they are going through rough times .
@@aurusdu14
Actually, master modes affects every game loop in which you have to fly a ship whether it’s combat, cargo, exploration, whatever it might be, and there are more of those types of players than combat enthusiast, who are perfectly fine with master modes. I literally have to just push one extra button to switch modes.😂 once I’m through needing NAV mode I go right into SCM mode raise my limiter, all pips to engines and spam boost wherever the hell I need to go, pretty damn quickly actually. Now before, after quantum Drive ended, I could just raise my limiter and fly down to an outpost, but it’s just as fast with master mode so it only affects the combat enthusiast which are the minority.
@@salesengsource on combat pilots being the minority?
As a game developer, I would absolutely treasure videos like this from my players. But also as an old ass game dev, I've seen all kinds of high horse ego from my coworkers. I really hope Yogi is not one of them, and will take this video to his heart, and make actual fix to the core issue instead of just duct-taping it up.
@@robv116 I would, because all the times I lied, I had to, and I would be fully honest with my players if my company allowed me to. But the point is, only the players who care, would call me a liar, and they have all the rights to do so. These are honest and constructive suggestion based on real experience playing the game for many years, which is super valuable because game developers don't really play their games. Even the testers and QA, they don't really play the game, at least not in the way players would. You'd be surprised of how many things game devs don't understand of their own games, simply because we don't play.
@@brockoala2994 What about the times you did not lie and they called you a liar presenting no proof other then opinion?
@@robv116 Then they would be misinformed, or they are trying to trashtalk on purpose. In either case, I would try to explain and clear out the misunderstanding, so they'd either understand, or other players would understand that I was not lying.
As a game developer do you agree with A1 that it's reasonable for a game to expect players to take "a couple weeks to a month just to get the basics down", even with proper training? Because that to me sounds like a terribly designed system for a game.
@@Super-id7bq That indeed sounds extreme for a game like Star Citizen, since it's not supposed to be a DCS in space. I think his "basics" are what most casual players would call "advanced". I think A1 is a bit too experienced that he kinda forgot how complicated the game can be for new players.
But I also understand that he wants the game to have a depth, a very high skill ceiling in pvp combat, that is worth exploring and training for, that would still be interesting a decade later.
I sucked at the old flight model with PvP but ever since MM, I haven't been able to play for more than an hour or so. As someone who has spent more than I would like to admit on ships and just bought all the peripherals last year, it truly is a drag. Plz bring back the old model or some iteration!
If you aren't good at the new model, and weren't good at the old model, why would you want the old model back when it was far more broken and exploitable than the new model?
@@Billy-bc8pk@Billy-bc8pk The whole point being THERE IS SOMETHING EXPLOITABLE.
When you see someone better you don't go simplified the game you learn and be better, that s what gamer do.
@@Adamas9571 Being exploitable negates learning to be better. In the current Master Modes you actually have to be good to win. You can't cheese fights by kiting groups away from one another at 1,300 m/s and then picking off each one using laser cannons while fleeing to recharge your shields. That is no longer possible with Master Modes -- it forces commitment, which is what it needs to keep fights engaging. They still have a ways to go before it all comes together, but it's already heading in a better direction from whence it came.
@@Billy-bc8pk with a low skll ceiling the pay-off from "getting good" is near zero .
@@Billy-bc8pk in my life experience, I was instantly getting more kills and having less fun in MM. The flight feels like crap.
Thank you Avenger for representing us. You nailed it, but I would also point out one more IMPORTANT thing: SC's underlying promise was that it would be a simulation of real engine physics / physicalisation, etc, in space! This realism was meant to be a core feature of the game and one of the main reasons to back it! It seems the devs have conveniently forgotten these principles and are trying to implement artificial limitations and invisible barriers to guide us somewhere none of us want to be in the game! +++Chris needs to refresh CIG staff's memory on what SC is all about, and the devs need to stand up, and point this out internally instead of sleep walking the game into yet another copy paste.
So you want unkillible players in game because exploit the system, why not improve mm that actually looking good and you see what you hit.
I would take pip away and fix problems
@@lrgege5854 curious what they are exploiting?
CIG welcomes all feedback.
As long as it is favor of MM.
"You can have any colour car you want, as long as it's black."
You should take a peak at spectrum. CIG is going bankrupt soon. The writing is on the wall. ✌️
@@realtimbotube I see history repeating itself, Microsoft comes in kicks out Chris(AGAIN) and finishes another of his games!
They just removed the MM section on their own feedback thread yesterday 🫤 …lol.
99.9% of the feedback there is overwhelmingly negative, yet Yogi has the nerve to claim that the feedback they're getting for Master Modes is positive. Then when you point out that the dude is blatantly lying with a straight face and everyone can see that, Nightrider clown comes and deletes all your comments and warns that you will be suspended even though even he knows that Yogi is a liar.
MM is slow, boring, unfulfilling and uninteresting, especially after experiencing what the old system had to offer. seeing the footage at 11:20 of the old model got me so excited for a moment, the old flight model was so much fun even when i was horrible at it. Its crazy that with all the bugs, broken everything, poor servers, crashes, bad press and earning the title "scam citizen" over the years, MM is going to be the thing that kills the game if they refuse to fix it. 10/10 video, i wish they would listen to you
MM won't kill the game. PVP players greatly overestimate their impact on the game. The general state of the game right now is what's putting it into a lull.
PvP'ers in most mixed pve/pvp games are less than 10% of the player base. MM won't kill anything, you will NOT be missed. Even in EvE Online, 80% of players never left Empire space.
The old flight model wasn't good too!
Many people fight in high speed with 1000m/s! This figths were horrible. Only few pvp pro's had to know how to fight.
Normal casual player like me were most of fight-time much too fast, hit nothing, crash together!
The old flight model was little like DCS-Combat Simulator! You have to learn for years in arena Commander how to handle. For casual Player was it unable to fight in old model.
The thing is that isn't fun for PvE players either. Some of the things in MM are good ideas, but the slow down in the actual combat experience is horrible, not just ship speeds although that is part of it.
A1 is incredibly disingenuous by blaming everything but the flightmodel on player decline. Reducing and repackaging the fighter meta to "skilled players are suppose to be better" is simply wrong. Great pilot skills gave you an insanely steep advantage, On the gladius could beat a fully crewed hammerhead level.
This sums up everything negative about SC and CiG . We're in year 12/13 and we still cant have a locked down set in stone flight model . SQ 42 should release in the next 6-12 months and Cig are still in the research/testing phase of the FM . Thats just plain scary
It's scary because it exposes the entire lie. SQ42 isn't ready hahaha...
@@sixmillionaccountssilenced6721and the whole game was supposedly “in gray box or better” in 2019. Right. 😂
Idk, you could have a "locked in" flight model, and it could absolutely suck. No amount of locking or over design will make the perfect system. It will always take the players and the devs to come up with the best balanced system that is good for both sides. I've never played a game that hasn't made large changing sweeps to it's mechanics due to feedback.
We don't have a locked down flight model because people complain constantly....we're on the 3rd version I think now. Combat starts out slower, speeds increase and then get too fast, CIG combats the speed with a new FM, rinse and repeat.
I agree with you 100%. Even with the combat aside I personally don’t even like flying around the verse in the current model.
I appreciate your efforts to try and communicate clearly to both CIG and the player base. I hope Yogi or Chris ends up seeing this.
I hope Chris ends up seeing this and Yogi gets fired. Dude's the worst thing that's happened to Star Citizen and CIG and it's time to replace him with someone that actually knows what they're doing.
@@k1mfor the fact he's not taking responsibility for anything, and apparently has the forum mods gatekeeping everything even slightly critical is pretty wild, considering it affects everyone's core game experience negatively,
I've posted a link to this video on spectrum together with my own feedback. CIG really don't have an understanding of the consequences of what they've done to the flight model. Here's hoping they listen.
@@k1mfor I don't necessarily want him fired, but he should go back to audio engineering.
@@analysedean The Spectrum mods (NightRider particularly) definitely use their position to try and curate and reinforce their own personal preferences. Currently, any time people are posting this video in feedback he's moving it to "Fan Creations" where he know it won't receive visibility.
There was a post a while back discussing the topic of 'law and order' and how sometimes, in the opinion of the OP, it's better to let the players settle things between themselves rather than tightly restrict gameplay. NR locked it and gave this whole speech about "anti-social gameplay". No one broke the rules, it was just a view on gameplay that NR didn't like so he locked it.
The community management team in general really needs some serious overhauling, it's rife with partiality and favoritism. Backers deserve much more of a say in how the community is moderated and a channel to contest actions.
Trichording is literally part of the “flight model and input controls” written in 2013. CR talks about this. He wanted trichording and he wanted physics based flight.
@@BGIANAKy haven’t they already admitted that the only reason they did this is to make it fairer for non joystick players?
Tricording is an incredibly important part of any 6° of freedom movement. I first experienced this and perfected it in the game “Descent”. Which allowed you to do this. There was nothing better than circle strafing your enemies. The flight model now is clunky and not very fun at all. I really hope they fix this.
@@timjacobi5672 yogi is honestly scum.
@@timjacobi5672I think it’s so funny people came up with this whole “tricoording” word in the first place. To me, it’s just common sense flying in a vacuum. Like….I was doing that before anyone started slinging that word around. I thought everyone flew that way….
@@jasonfrost5025though the calculations of the acceleration rates were wrong. If done correctly the manoeuvr would maintain its maximum primary thruster acceleration during a turn, if it was down without sustained maneuver thruster the heading velocity would drop till it got back up.
I think many think tricording is a rear thing, just blows me away, the max g is the primary thruster, other thrusters only help maintain that in maneuvers, there is no rules in physics with weaker thruster massively increase maximum velocity.
I think some people need to read atom rocket space flight and ww2 style space flight.
I'll admit i'm not the biggest fan of yours right off the bat. Despite this, i felt it important to say how much i agree with every point you made in this video. You presented rational arguments from an experienced position, and not one thing you said from that perspective was untrue. From Day One of MM I have hated it and what it represents, it has always been a step in the wrong direction in my eyes and has only served to alienate the playerbase further. To me, it is the death of skillful combat. A dogfight has gone from "the best pilot wins no matter what" to "the most pilots in a wing win no matter what," with multicrew ships essentially being thrown not even in the trash, but straight into the incinerator. Your point about "just nav out bro" struck a chord with me; my orgmates and I came to the same conclusion very quickly during the initial PTU testing of MM, and I'll be honest it turned me off from the game so badly that I went from playing damn near daily for 3 years to taking months off at a time. The game is simply not what I signed up for at this point, and I'm scared it never will be again. If it werent for what this game represented to the larger gaming marketplace, I would be considering a refund in light of these changes. The fact that Yogi is now essentially gaslighting us as players via his latest and greatest spectrum post deeply troubles me, and makes me concerned that this games future is in jeopardy. I would absolutely hate to see this game fail despite my disdain for its current direction as it relates to combat (the other changes like the recent changes to cargo are nice, im a fan of that.) In one update i went from being able to kite entire fleets in my lowly m50 to crashing into damn near every station because i cannot for the life of me wrap my head around fucking NAV mode (very obviously a skill issue on my part, mixed with a refusal to sit down and learn) despite all the time and effort i had put into learning how to fly in the previous flight model.
What the solution is here I cannot say, it's beyond my capabilities. I could sit down and put the effort in to learn how to fight in mastermodes, but believe me when i say that its so profoundly unfun to me that i would rather just play literally any other game. I don't think i could find the motivation to really engage with combat in Star Citizen from this point forward unless some radical changes are made to MM. Interceptors bore me, light fighters are jokes as you said, multicrew ships are even bigger laughingstocks. All i'm left with as a player is industrial gameplay and FPS combat, which are at least fun in their own right. However, if i want an industrial fix, i can simply play a better logistics game like Satisfactory or Dyson Sphere Program. If i want a smoother FPS experience i can play any of the myriad FPS games out there that have spent years perfecting that particular style of gameplay. What I truly come to Star Citizen for is what I cant get anywhere else; satisfying combat in spaceships. Elite Dangerous is solved, EVE is a numbers game, No Man's Sky barely even has combat, X4 is fun but isn't multiplayer. No other game I've played did it quite like Star CItizen did back before MM.
I wish we could go back, but such is the nature of change. I can only hope Yogi finds his footing and gets it right in the future.
Rant over
Same exact feeling here. CIG alienated the part of the community that was the most invested in their games for some reason
I also agree. But I feel like there is a real elephant in the room that no one is openly addressing: CIG is nerfing the flight model so much because they know that there is a very large contingent of PvE players who do not want their game loops interrupted by rando PvPer's who can easily stomp them into the dust, but at the same time, the company doesn't want to create separate game shards for each play style. From their point of view, it is a Catch-22: they can't take sides with regard to declaring one or the other play style "the winner", so they've opted for the worst of all worlds: satisfy no one.
The only way out that I can see is to give the PvEer's what they want: full immunity from PvP, which they can temporarily opt into on a case by case basis if they agree to it (same way you'd Accept or Reject a Mission opportunity). That way, the flight model can remain as robust as CIG can make it without scaring the pants off of those not that interested in combat. You get your fun flight model, and they get their peace of mind. And yes, I get that it won't be that simple when taking Org battles into consideration once that becomes a thing.
What's necessary then - on both sides - is to come together with a united voice and tell CIG that you are willing to compromise on this with each other in order to get what really matters to the player base as a whole (a fun game!). I know; there will be a ton of technical-level programming changes that would need to be addressed for this to be implemented properly, but that's CIG's problem, not ours. I didn't say it would be easy. But it's the only option that I can think of that would save the project from capsizing at this point.
@@cyberiusprime4855 I think the long term plan would be for high-sec system (Terra, Sol) tp be "PvE"system where lawless systems like Pyro would be hardcore PvPvE and systems like Stanton would be a middle ground
I'm so glad that I'm not the only one that stopped playing the game because of MM. CIG is too stubborn to go back to the old flight model, they'll let the project die before that happens. Good riddance to Star Citizen, this pipe dream can go in my rear-view.
I so agree. They will have a hard time admitting the were wrong with MM.
So...the flight model was 'dumbed down', by people not smart enough to understand what they created.
Dumbed down by people who inherited a geniusly designed system, by someone who wasn't allowed to finish it.
the flight model is being "developed" by an audio engineer. let that sink in.
Im not saying you are doing this. but I've seen so many people in SC community that make dev unteachable and flawless. Although video try to remain in neutral position I have to say it is Yogi who cause this. It is time for community to reject yogi.
@@AKARazorbackwho created the original flight model and what game if any is he working on now? Because that's what I want to play
EXACTLY!
Hundred percent correct. The problem is those responsible for MM are so heavily invested in MM there is no way they will ever admit they are wrong, it would result in them losing their jobs most likely. So they will defend MM to the bitter end, even if it means the game going bust. A1 is wrong though to assume or hope, leading devs at CIG wont take this as a personal attack, off course they will. A1 is essentially telling them they don't know WTF they are doing. If that is the case why are they even there. To change course will take nothing less than Chris intervening.
Same stubborn human behavior that leads to all sorts of horrible issues IRL. People refuse to admit when they’re wrong, and ego creates monsters. I fear that’s the route we’re headed here.
Again, as I have been saying for years: CIG, we need 2 flight model systems!
One system for in-atmosphere WW2 fighter planes, with short ranges, with wings and 1 direction of movement.
Another system for space, for bigger ships, fully newtonian 6 DoF with longer battle ranges, with ships formed like bricks.
When you try to mix both, you will fail, as the last 12 years have shown.
Fuck yeah. As someone who enjoys aeroplane flight and 6-dof mech combat, it is very clear that you can't mix both.
This would even bring more ship selection varieties.
Longer ranges has never felt good in SC. I can accept that for naval combat style cap ship fights but I don't want to be shooting at a pixel. I want the WW2 in space that I backed.
They talked about something similar to this already and they were planning on implementing similar in the future. (As far as the 1 direction of movement in atmosphere).
I absolutely love this idea.
Literally bought a Polaris so I could get as close as possible to long-range combat similar to The Expanse
I liked the 3.18 flight model it was full of seat of the pants pucker moments and strafing worked.
Had a stupid amount of fun in Arena Commander / Pirate Swarm back in 3.18. Ships felt responsive and good lord could you whip around things if you knew how to throttle the grey-out/red-out lines. It was fun.
i think the most funny part is they try to make a realistic space game but at the same time making spaceships not spaceships
i mean, me, an average player, who gone through basic physics education, would want to fly a spaceship like a spaceship in a space game. yes it's not easy at the beginning, but is flying ever easy to average people? NO. and honestly those scm/nav velocity bobble shit is more difficult than a simple vector addition, which most people already got some basic knowledge in high school
Same here. Average dude that is wondering why flying the spaceship I paid for doesn't feel like flying a spaceship anymore.
I never got the hate behind back strafing, it's zero g space combat... of course you are going to turn your nose and keep a trajectory
If you are powerful at range keep that advantage
@@PursauntYapper imagine my shock when I thought back strafing is some kind of hacking / exploiting only to find out that back strafing is a proper way how to fly a ship in a decoupled mode and i was omg wtf wtf is wrong with people...
@PRPs1 you started off strong, and then I had a stroke trying to read the last half of that message. I imagine the same thing happened to you.
@@zeta4687 Yes it's very strange. They set out to make a game that will play like the old x wing games but at the same time they try to make everything realistic and simulated and now it's like they are finally realizing these two things don't really combine well. I think how it was before master modes was a nice compromise, and a unique take on space combat that leaned more into the sim/realism direction. But instead of solving the issues with it they just dumbed it down and now we have this really weird system that does not feel smooth or good to use at all.
The previous model, I felt rewarded for practice. I was actually building MY skill. Master modes seemed to make me much, much more effective. It was like I’d power-leveled while I was sleeping, which is boring. I stopped playing any combat. I’d rather not waste my time. Old SC felt good enough to get me into combat even tho it wasn’t my thing. I liked improving my skill.
This feels like some dev’s (or some leaders’) directive. It feels like this is being done on someone’s orders, not because they understand the combat, but because MM is what they want it to be. It’s an EGO directive, not a gameplay development. It’s “my way or the highway,” and players are choosing the highway.
hi, noob here, i may have been an absolutely terrible pilot in the old model but it was a lot more fun and fluid than this multi speed, bulky, abrasive speed swapping thing. At least in the old model I could feel what I was doing and improve myself. In this model it feels like I'm fighting air in space.
Master mods are a complete failure. When I first participated in dogfights in 2014, I was just shocked. How is it even possible to make it so interesting, dynamic, and fun? I've never experienced so much excitement from controlling a spaceship. I've bought a lot of serious flight equipment since then and spent a lot of time learning how to fly efficiently, but after the release of the master mods, I abandoned star citizen. And it's a shame, I brought cig a serious amount of money and believed in the project until the last moment, but now I do not know what to think.
Speeds are now way closer to what they were in 2014, I don't get how this makes your views aligned with A1's. 1.3 was still the best patch in my opinion and that was sub 250m/s, nowhere near the 600m/s A1 is convinced we need for good combat to exist.
@@Super-id7bqI think you missed A1’s point.
The speed itself could be literally any value, so long as it’s a single continuous environment without the steps (scm, after burner, Nav) we currently have. Specifically, we reach those steps almost instantly due to our extremely high acceleration relative to those speeds. The moment you hit afterburner, you’re at that limit, the moment you’re in Nav you’re at that limit-it’s not a smooth gradient.
Second, the cording limiters prevent the use of what speed we have. Your ship slows down as it attempts to push around the opponent ship because your nose is turning. This means that no matter what the speed limit is (be it a single gradient or 3x steps) you can’t actually use it to out turn an opponent.
His point about high speed was relative to missiles. With missiles in the game we must be able to evade them, so our ship speeds must be tuned in the context of what missile speeds are tuned to.
lol now you get clapped by people using keyboard and mouse
I agree... I have 3000 hours in DCS, have been in many many dogfight tournaments... Even taught classes on ACM for a guild. My hope for SC is for an interesting flight combat system close to the depth of DCS... Hell, if it's 10% as good as DCS, it'll be successful... But it's boring as heck, right now.
THIS!
I’m not a ‘pro player,’ and this video illustrates exactly why I’m not playing SC. I came to fly in space in a beautiful environment. It no longer feel like I’m flying in space, it feels like I’m flying in a devs programming.
It feels like flying a turret...
And now the environment doesn’t even look that nice thanks to the green fart cloud that they call “space”
Honestly, the more I used master mode, the more I grew to hate it, even when I wasn’t the one flying the ship-that’s how bad the flight model is. The physics of the ground vehicles feel completely off, and the flight model itself just doesn’t work. It looks like two spaceships awkwardly spinning around each other, more like a slow dance than a real dogfight. It doesn’t even come close to the intensity of jet combat in the atmosphere, and in space, it’s outright illogical. They take one step forward and three steps back. If this level of incompetence continues, I’ll eventually look to sell my ships. Someone clearly isn’t prioritizing the right things, and it’s leaving everything half-finished.
The tanks are insanely bad to use, I have no idea why or how they were pushed to live in that state and haven't been touched since.
The full physics model for them needs a rework
The flight model has nothing to do with master modes. They came out at the same time. Master modes isn’t the issue.
Eh, if I'm honest. MM isn't too much of a pain in the ass. With that being said, I have no idea who's idea was it that in order to escape you need to disable your shields to do so. That is the dumbest logic that I've ever heard.
@@Patch1xo are you on crack? MM is the flight model, it has everything to do with flight models cuz it is the fuggin flight model bro. When a specific mode and dropping your landing gear causes an invisible air brake that could never physically be possible, it’s a fuckin flight model problem. If I turn my guns on going 500 ms/sec and then for absolutely no logical reason I drop to 200ms/sec, it’s the fucking flight model causing that. MM IS THE ISSUE BRO, you just sucked at actual flying and management of systems and now you get your Fischer price ages 3+ flight model to make you feel more than ever like a pilot instead of taking the time to be a real man
+1000 !
I totally agree, combat now feels so boring and difficult at the same time.
It’s the reason why I don’t play SC currently. I bought SC because I love space combat.
I agree. I have no desire to play this now. I used to have fun just flying (not even just fighting) ... now with whatever modes, sure I can adapt but it's lame. When another space flight game allows me to use dual sticks to fly, I will defect. This game made me LOVE dual stick flight! Since it doesn't matter now, I'm looking around elsewhere.
Everspace 2 ✨️
@@flashbackflip ... I will definitely check it out!
Elite Dangerous allows dual sticks too, I've heard of a game called Hunter net thats supposed to be a true 6DOF space combat game but I haven't checked it out myself yet.
If you guys want straight action games for dual sticks, definitely Everspace 2 is fun to play. Overload, Geocore, Desecrators and Zero Grave, all of which are like the old Descent games. I’m learning Elite Dangerous but it’s a commitment type of a game. Sometimes I only have 30 minutes.
This is 100% on point. OG backer, knew it was going to take until 2026, the 6DOF and skill-based flight models were a selling point. This is the first time I've really been concerned if CIG can do this.
I don’t like avenger_one, BUT TODAY HE IS 100 % RIGHT. I HOPE ROBERTS AND CIG IS LISTENING. Because Star citizen is not fun anymore.
What isn't to like?
Why don’t you like him? What a pathetic thing to say.
He pretended to be a non pirate player yet he attacked peps in my org just doing trading iam ok with pirates but he has marketed himself as a non pirate good guy yet he attacked a cargo ship that’s stood no chance just because he could wicht is fine but don’t make out like your a good guy then do this I respect mongal squad way more because atleast they are upfront avanger one acts like he a white night
@@SANTATRUCKS5507
He's posted videos of him going pirating...
I've never claimed too be the white knight. that's a projection on your end, I am and always have been an advocate for fair, balanced, and skill based gameplay. I dont like extremes on either end, of the PVP, or PVE meta. Just so im clear, you are basing your whole opinion of me, based off of a in game attack, .... and personal assumptions of me which i have no control over. Its these kinds of POV that paint me a villan but in reality ive just been a guy, playing the game. Do you see how your statements about me are tribal based? I mean no disrespect ❤@SANTATRUCKS5507
Im back playing Elite Dangerous. Not coming back to SC until 4.0 is playable. So I may not be coming back at all 😝
How are you liking ED right now? Never played it.
@@Jarvis_aka_UgunnH8This The FM in ED was one of the reasons I chose SC over it. I just... *didnt like the feel* - that was it. I liked the feel of SC better, so I stuck with that.
ED is much harder cos unlike decoupled mode, fa off also removes rotational stabilization, which makes aiming harder
This same post sent me off on a rant of my own, for similar reasons. Keeping Orgs alive when combined arms is our focus is nearly impossible when nobody wants to touch fighters or multicrew due to the flight model, and ground vehicles are nearly impossible to use. If you haven't recently, try flying a Valkyrie in this FM and dropping 10 dudes anywhere near an uncontested objective. Most beautiful loot box I've ever flown.
you mean contested? uncontested would be easy and nothing would take you out.
Conceptually, the valkyrie is my favourite ship. It's such a shame to see it stuck in the space it's in. Even without the ladder issue and it's ship to ship capabilities, almost none of the vehicles made after the valkyrie actually fit in the valkyrie which was advertised as a HEAVY dropship. It's sad.
@@AngelTeaWitch Uncontested in the context of there is no screen between the dropship and opposing force. Perhaps calling that contested would be better. The core being if you're seen, you're dead.
Another thing that makes people avoid combat these days is the unnecessarily bloated systems just to get your gear together, retrieve your ship, and prepare for missions. Nobody wants to spend an hour prepping just to get blown up and spend another hour in order to return to that state.
I'm not one who can tell CIG how to fix flight mechanics, but I can say MM is not the correct answer.
Switching between modes is disjointing. Shield going up and down, weapons being switched on and off for reasons.
MM and magical beams that do all kinds of stuff is the biggest immersion breakers in the game.
I have had 10-12hours with flight since MM came out, and I can't find the motivation to log on and play.
It would be so incredibly easy for CIG to invite a dozen highly experienced sim pilots to a hotel and do a week of workshops to find ideas for a better flight model. But no, they will continue to stuble around and do another dead-on-arrival remake of their flight model each 2 years.
I nominate GrowlingSidewinder and EikoPoppy!
Trust me, you dont want sim players directing SC, sim is fun for a biche of a niche of gamers, DCS maximun players online has ben 1500+, dont believe me? Go fly a huey in war thunder then try DCS lol
Dont get me wrong i would love full simulation, but i dont think only about me, and i know full simulation will kill 99% if the community, the learning curve its just to steep
@@StoneCoolds i feel the best games are the ones that sit close to full simulation without the need to press every switch and lever just to start moving. project reality for example, u press E to get into a Apache and W to go and it was the most engaging and immersive battles ever, either it be on foot or in vehicles. skill/tactical knowledge required to win but u could definitely give it a shot without any clunk or learners manual, star citizen going the clunk and learners manual(without writing one) route pisses me off.
@@FlatlandkinG the thing is that simulation is not about pressing keys, knobs and levers, it's about the simulation of your weapon systems, sensors, their interaction with terrain and physics of the flight model, for example try flying a DCS chopper by just pressing W, but you can fly it by not pressing any button and just auto estart for example
A sim hovering will be to much for 99% of SC community, same for realistic missile and radar sensors, and that was my point, the simulation becomes to indeep and really not the point of SC, it would be like medical gameplay being just like a real life medical treatment
SC it's arcade, but that's fin-ish, the problem is like you said, everything is made so clunky and non intuitive, and each "tuning" gets more clunky boring and unnecessary, their approach to combat, really seems like a console game approach 😕
@@StoneCooldsnobody said anything about “full simulation.” SC was never going to be a full 1:1 sim, but it was supposed to be “sophisticated” with “intelligent flight systems.” Catering to casuals has been the death of literally every game like this in the past. I’ve seen it happen over and over. Games start amazing, devs listen to whining people who are too lazy to learn, then the game goes to shit.
Yogi: Fundamentally misunderstands the prior system, gaslights the community in order to justify his misunderstanding, develops and pushes out a flight model in spite of criticism, insists that its better and continues to reject criticism.
I don't really engage with PvP and even I have stopped all ship to ship combat because of "Master Modes". I don't like using it to fly around let alone combat. Literally ruined the game for me. I actually got mad when they basically said that fixing the FM is not even a top priority.
I enjoy PVE more since MMs.
Jousting was just too annoying and you know how NPCs love to go full-throttle right at you.
@@j.d.4697 The only NPC's that I found jousting to be a problem with were Merlins. Which after some time I learned to deal with.
@@j.d.4697if you slow down, you won’t be jousting. 9 times out of 10 it’s the player who is jousting at crazy speeds not the NPC. Sometimes it’s the NPC, but you can anticipate their movements and slow down when they turn towards you, so you don’t blow by at crazy speeds. Instead you turn it into a chase. That said, the thrill of flying is gone now so doesn’t matter.
33:31 "Educations is key, you know?"
😂
A1 I was a b tier pilot - and let me start by saying your tutorials - and your guys really helped me learn the ropes of PvP. I sparred with your guys all the time - most your fully vetted if not all your patched in pilots could beat me - but it never felt like I Could NEVER win. In fact a few times I came close. It was exciting to be in that realm and it took time and training to keep the skills. IF MM actually did what it was supposed to do? I’d be much more tolerant of it? But it hasn’t made multi crew ships more powerful at the cost of making dog fights a bit less fun - it’s nerfed every aspect of flight. Even PvE is somehow less engaging? I went from playing SC basically daily to maybe 1x a week. It’s just not fun. It honestly feels like I’m playing high fidelity starfield now.
Biggest problem with Master Modes is that our Space Ships no longer handle like Space Ships. Kind of critical for a "high fidelity" space game. It's one of my biggest criticisms of Elite Dangerous's combat; it feels like they tried to do the same thing that CIG is doing now, but 10 years ago, and found that it simply turned combat into DPS races without something extra (e.g. Chaff, Heat Sinks, and Shield Boosters) to vary the nature of combat encounters.
If SC was a different game with a more arcade focus, a more casual atmosphere, a more cinematic environment, Master Modes might be perfectly fine - there isn't anything on a mechanical level that is fundamentally flawed or bad from a gameplay design standpoint. The issue is that it's being shoehorned into a game where it doesn't belong, where the size and scope and scale and tone and setting don't really match up.
Anybody who just briefly researched multi crew combat in WW2 will realize that manned turrets were ineffective. Turrets on planes became effective when remote turrets were computer assisted on the B-29. How can the design of a combat system rely so much on an ineffective tech? That alone makes me think about the incompetence level on the side of CIG. Only being reinforced by their atrocious UI design.
And when I heard about MM, I thought right away that we had that before, it did not really work well and we go back after all these years? This is a total waste of our time and money. And they want to force the SQ42 model into the PU just because it is convenient.
As someone that never engages in PvP and can be considdered an average pilot, i've allways used bicording/tricording without even knowing the concept. The same way i instinctively use both my thumbs on a gamepad to do a 180° in any FPS/TPS game, i've allways combined inputs to adjust my turns prior to Master Mode. That with the different flight geometry based on the modes are whats truelly breaks the "feeling" part of the topic at hand imo. Backer from 2014, i stopped playing the game shortly after 3.23 released.
Anyway, thanks for the informed perspective. o7
Thanks for articulating everything I was feeling about MM way better than I ever could. MM just feels way worse than flying previously and I don't enjoy it no matter how long I try to force myself to accept it.
My sticks have dust one them. Sometimes when i'm in my spare room i see them and a flood of fun memories come through my mind. learning to properly fly a ship in space in the old flight model and growing to be a better pvper then i ever imagined was the pinacol of my gaming experience. This game was special.
I think it's well worth mentioning that it's not just combat players that are upset with the current flight model. I've heard from lots of cargo/industrial players that say that they are struggling to enjoy the game because even just flying from point A to point B feels bad.
It doesn't feel like space! It feels like you're underwater.
Actually, for this kind of game drag in space wouldn't even be the end of the world if it was fairly light handed. But its not its so heavy. Boost and then take your finger off boost and watch how fast you drop speed *in space* its crazy! Totally ruins the feel to have the speed bleed so high.
@Papa_Sweep Totally. But when I suggested on the forums that the arbitrary drag after boosting should be removed, I got dozens of replies telling me to just get over it, because this game was never meant to be a "hyper-realistic sim". 🙄🤦♂️
@@mikalemadden1762 Yep thats spectrum for you.
I dont even think it needs to go away actually, just have the effect reduced so that it feels like we're on ice instead of underwater.
Ice still has some friction, more than outer space, less than underwater.
Spectrum users will also call you a cheater/exploiter for pressing 3 buttons at once in the old FM.
Lots of people that dont work for CIG, speaking on behalf of CIG...
And... the original pitch totally *was* for something like a sim.
Although I think the trichording benifits extend beyond sim/arcade. It, just makes it so much easier to "close the gap" so to speak, if you can trichord.
I dont get the arguments about complexity either - trichording is litterally pressing 3 buttons at once (4 if you also want to boost) - mechanics wise its nothing compared to mechanics in other games. It doesn't require timing to pull off... it doesn't require a high degree of dexterity, or actions per minute. Doesn't require you to be very accurate... you just press 3 buttons.
If pressing 3 buttons was all it took to be good, we wouldnt need to overhaul the FM because everyone would be good.
This isn't a good sign for SQ42 flight either.
With the flight model and the almost-universally hated UI changes coming over from SQ42, I think the tail is wagging the dog here.
SQ42 is where this all comes from. Something that works really well in a single-player game, does not necessarily translate to a multiplayer PvP type game.
SQ42 is heavily pre-scripted PvE experience so they can make npc ship fly as slow as much as they want and do all sort of cinematic details I just don't understand why are they forcing and implementing this fly model on SC which is MMO type of game (Honestly i think they don't know what they are doing... )
@@PRPs1so many people forget S42 and SC is the same game and SQ42 is the core and SC follows the core. They decided on the fight model they want the game to have. Having MM in SC is a preview and any changes are going to be tweaks to it, but rework the whole fight model and shoved back into SQ 42 is not going to happen. Just like they are not going to have different flight models from each game. They are not going to teach you how to fly then reteach you to play in multi-player.
As someone who has taught beginner racing classes for over a year, MM has made the flight significantly less accessible - it takes me about twice as long now to explain controls, configuration, and basic flight to new pilots, and I find the "non-meaningful complexity" extremely frustrating from an education perspective. I've personally seen a huge dropoff in engagement and enjoyment around racing and flight in general from racers, both new and old -- flight is now more complex with significantly less room for enjoyment and skill expression. The simple joy of having an unrestricted speed and acceleration space to play in, has been replaced by a system which simply frustrates those who just want to fly around and enjoy the game, those who want to fight, and those who want to race and push their ships to the limit. The logical inconsistencies and unintuitive parts of MM are extremely frustrating to me because they're so much harder to communicate to players. Thank you for breaking down this message from a combat perspective, as I dont have a lot of experience there - I just know that flight has gotten significantly more complex, less fun, and players who previously enjoyed flight in the game have been frustrated and not playing as a result. o7
This can't be shouted loud enough!
their claim that there is more engagement in combat is a flat out lie when player numbers are lower than they have been in a decade, and as much as anything MM is responsable
@@N1ghtR1der666 Maybe a higher % of the total population is doing combat stuff now... but the total population, at least to me, seems like its taken a nose-dive.
If it was really that much more popular, you'd think combat in AC and the PU would just be bustling with activity.
DjBuntin recently said they dont want to show player counts in A/C because the populations are so low they're afraid people will see the actual numbers, and decide not to play because hardly anyone is playing.
That sure doesn't sound like an increase to me.
Dude I'm not here often, because I'm a bit offended by your attitude :D
But you nailed it with every point, I can't agree more to it. I've also seen the list in spectrum and could only shake my head in disbelief. I really hope this video gets the attention it needs.
We could also argue the drawer away, so lets hope MM will find a cozy graveyard somewhere.
Hey, question for ya. I am actually serious. I don't watch all of his videos so maybe I am missing it but I have to ask (because I have seen other people mention it also). What is wrong with his attitude? Thanks for the assist in advance.
Previously, you could drift a Constellation at high speeds and occasionally return fire against a smaller vessel. They have removed that ability. The only real issue is that a Gladius could kite down any ship slower than itself. Just set light fighter DPS close to the shield regen of larger ships. That would have fixed most of the issues which provoked this MM garbage.
Ive been waiting for this video for about 3 months lol. I knew you where going to do it. 👊
100% right. And my worst fear is that they're lying. For ship sales. Again. And when 1.0 finally hits, I'm afraid this garbage will be solidified.
Maaan.... it's a shame I can't like this video more than once.
The entire statement from yogi felt like a slap in the face with a giant engineless freelancer.
CIG's response to MM feedback has turned me back in to a pessimist. I'm beginning to think the rumors of a console release really are true. The tinfoil hat is on and it whispers CIG's goal is to make combat dead simple and easy so that the console crowd won't be absolutely demolished by the rest of the players.
@@zeekloft it's true they will put S42 on Xbox that why they have to stick with this flight model.
i will sell my account as soon as they announce a console port .
Console gamers always ruin all the fun for true gamers
If CIG is using the precious time and resources for console version that is the worse backstab to SC community that funded this game only for PC version. No one backed this project to play on console.
@@fg1110 well there isnt really any reason why they both have to have the same flight model, they could have a dumbed down simplified model for SQ42 or an option for one
hats off man. this is probably one of the best breakdown / technical layout video's I've ever seen regarding CIG.
I never wanted to ask for a refund until now.
you wil not get one if you are in the game for over a half of a year.....I have spend 10K and play with the Idea to quit too
you can sell the account itself since sc is not bound to any launcher like steam .
MM also has a negative impact on salvaging and mining, which was likely never intended, but is present.
It makes everything crap. Flying used to feel like actually piloting any one of the ships you were in. Now it just feels like a corny fake piece of garbage.
Flying just to fly around is no longer fun.
I stopped playing after MM was released. I'll come back if they go back to the old flight model.
The "speed wall" is a goldfish bowl and as pilots we are basically bouncing off the glass of the bowl.
The speedwall feels so shit because the ships accelerate at 24gs. (With boost) I don’t think people quite understand how ludicrous that is. Bring those numbers down to like 4g of acceleration, ill guarantee the model will have way more depth just from speed management alone
I brought over a dozen people to this game and we have ALL quit after master modes, it's TERRIBLE! You lose the joy of speed and the versatility of being a truly talented pilot, or even someone learning in that direction! Removing fun = DEATH for a game. How could they think this was a good idea? Even if it was something meant to bridge the gap between tech, it's not even fun or functional. Right before Master Modes this game was HYPED for the world, everyone was going nuts over it.....after MM, though? No shot. Maybe this is Chris' "death of a spaceman" after all.
The boss listens to the marketing team, not the community, and the marketing team says "console, consol, console".
What joys of speed were you enjoying in the old system? Genuinely? In space there is no relative sense of speed at all due to no parallax, unless you were in an asteroid belt. Even then the sense of speed felt lower because the ratio between max velocity and accelerations was too high, making it more drifty. In atmo where you do get parallax, the speeds were probably near enough to what they are now. I genuinely don't get how people are convincing themselves that it used to feel faster. Go back and watch old 1.3 footage where velocities were lower than 250m/s and see how much faster it feels to anything we have had since.
Sony thought Concord was a good idea too..
😂😂😂
Amen! I played religiously for all of 2023 and 2024 up until the MM patch. No game has captivated me like it has before or since. The biggest reason was for the freedom its flight model provided. Then MM arrived and put me in a straight jacket. Haven't touched it since.
I believe the biggest issue is that they're trying to make one of the most difficult professions in the world - combat pilot - accessible to the masses. Everybody wants to be Luke Skywalker or Maverick. But the truth is it's simply not possible for the majority of people. Especially so with no education and training.
The best thing CIG can do is make each of the game's professions as deep, engaging and expressive as possible, and people will filter in as their interest and skills dictate. Not everyone can be an elite space combat pilot. That's OK. What's not OK is to castrate those that can in the name of accessibility. That'll hemorrhage players like me and spell doom for the game in the long run.
MM and other decisions has sidelined me from the project and if 4.0 and the flight model aren't big enough steps forward, I'll lose interest entirely and move on.
So glad you're speaking out about Master Modes. Unfortunately, the current trend shows that CIG will ignore your feedback. The pilots in my org dislike Master Modes so much that it's significantly impacted player numbers. It feels like CIG are killing their own game.
It's rather simple The devs don't play their own game. Don't respect players time or feedback. And marketing is driving the whole game into the grouynd to milk money out of it rather than deliver a finished product. The game will die if nothing is done about these issues.
This is what it feels like a lot of the time - or they're so blinded by... something if they really think this stuff is better than what we had before.
Watched the video to the end, very interesting and full of actual arguments. I just had a conversation this afternoon with orgmates about current MM, and I had to give them almost the same explanations as you did. They were complaining about back strafing and said that CIG was gonna nerf that, and I was like "mates, they can't do that, it's pure physics! We don't pilot planes, we pilot spacecrafts, we have a velocity vector and can rotate along the vector."
I also gave them the best example of realistic space fights imo, which are fights in BattleStar Galactica. You see the ships using their boost to change direction quickly, strafing while shooting enemies on the sides, etc., this show is what M.Roberts wants, a realistic space sim! If they now want to make it available to the mass with minimum training and leveling from the bottom, they can make SC an arcade game then. No need for realism anymore.
I stopped playing until I hear that the flight model is much improved. I loved flying in Eve Online but Star Citizen will be next level. I still have faith and I appreciate the impassioned plee from A1. I hope the devs take it in the best possible way.
Going to be blunt. MM is why I have not played in the past several patches. At all. And I used to love the snot out of AC / PS modes as a way to push just how far I could get in specific ships. MM has made those game modes actively unpleasant and boring vs trying new things, seeing how close I could hug rocks going at stupidly dangerous speeds, and seeing just how kamikaze-coded the NPC's were.
I only got into SC in March of 2024, but I found A1 and started learning to fly in 3.21, right before MM was introduced. I felt the effects immediately. I was challenged, yet encouraged to keep growing and pushing myself to learn the nuances of flight, and it made me so excited to keep learning it. MM did improve my combat, initially, but it became more apparent the more I flew, that not only did MM raise the skill floor, but it severely lowered the skill ceiling to the point where I lost motivation to fly and train. The new model needs to be fixed. Pls CIG. I want the high skill ceiling. Even if it comes with a higher skill floor.
Thank you Avenger for highlighting what was happening in what was once my favorite part of the game…
I used to love pve as a solo player, i dont even bother using a fighter anymore. Seeing the 3.22 footage made me miss those days when combat was exciting.
they really need to overhaul pve combat, the higher levels are just boring as hell hp slogs
The combat is technically easier its just time consuming.
They need to add missions that push pilot skill with better AI snub - heavy fighters
Starfury combat vs Airplane combat. They need to watch Babylon 5, the Neo BSG series, etc.
"when you add missiles" - The Final Countdown, F14s vs Zeros
I feel gaslit af with that post from Yogi.
You gotta remember this is Chris’ game. Yogi is just doing his job.
100% correct.
I usually disagree with everything Avenger says. But he is correct in this one.
MM is garbage.
Great points made. Here's hoping CIG will take this all into consideration.
Thank you! SC´s flight model is in such a bad state since Master Modes. Fixing the problems should be highest priority, but it´s postponed for an indefinite time. What a sad time to be a SC fan.
Let the physics be hard. Make weapons that can be effective as one would do in reality. Accept that, as in reality, fighter pilots are the highest end and that its hard. Few will achieve the highest level of skill. The game has many roles to fill. Screw around in a fighter and fight against your peers, get better over time, don't get mad aces crush you. Basically allow the world to exist and play out as it will, as it is in reality.
FANTASTIC Video, I really hope CIG can come to their senses!
You are so right with all your comments. I stopped playing SC once MM hit live as it felt so wrong. And I was not engaged in PvP. But now it does not feel like a spacesim anymore, which was the actual reason I took up with all the bugs and shit, but the feeling of flying was so great. Now that they ripped that great feeling out there is not much in SC for me anymore.
Another consideration for you, Avenger: I'm not in your top percentage of pilots, but I'm one of the ones that does get pretty good over time (mostly due to my limited time to play). By the time I get really pretty good, the devs yank the carpet out from under me and introduce a new flight model. Then I have to start all over again. It wasn't the old flight model that keeps me from combat, it was the change to a new one AGAIN. If you want a world war 2 flight sim . . . make one (and I'd probably fly it since I've been an aviation enthusiast since I was little as my granddad was a pilot in the US Army Air Force). If you want a space sim . . . let us fly in space they way we're supposed to.
I'm leading an Org which is PVP biased. So I was often going to Arena Commmander for training myself to be good, to be skilled day by day. (squadron battle specifically, for team fight training). but I can't do that since master mode have came because it's damn empty.
For some reason they are acting like it's the players fault for not buying arena commander to learn how to PvP. When it's there's for having a game just full of unfinished DIY systems.
After watching this I watched some of the older dog fight videos. It made me want to go and spend a few hours learning how to fly better. Then I remembered they dumbed it down and went back to playing r6seige.
I want a high skill celling. It's a good investment in time and feels rewarding.
Dumbing down a game that's trying to base itself on physics is crazy...!!
Also, to add, seeing that the content creators are making posts like this is not great for new players like myself 😅
Pilot agency is ultimately what's being lost with MM. If the game (would have preferred sim) designer removes the ability to work freely with foundational flight parameters that are part of an understandable and predictable performance envelope, then pilots are being stripped of their creativity when solving problems.
That equals boredom for new pilots as well, after the eye candy is stripped away. If mastery of flight, let alone combat, doesn't require practice and growth, what's the point of flying? Even when flying the worst brick of a cargo ship, I still want to know the skill ceiling is high to get the most out of it.
Thank you for the well-reasoned and well-articulated points. I'm not a PVPer at all, but this direction is just really concerning.
He's 100% correct and I'll say it again here: I'm came back to SC after a two and a half year break recently, and it's been pretty heart breaking.
The very first fight I got into was in an arrow vs a hornet, and I'm thinking to myself okay you know I'm very rusty and my aim is crap, but I know that if I can corkscrew in with power in shields, do a little blow past and get on his six with boost I'll be in a great position to start wearing him down. I can stay outside his turn rate and be good. wrong.
Imagine my surprise when I realize that actually, no, I'm going to hit this invisible wall that I cant punch through with boost, and I'm going to be holding forward strafe while they hold back strafe and we're both gonna go absolutely nowhere. we're just gonna stare at eachother and i'm going to get melted.
Why are we punishing not only individual player skill, but just a player's basic understanding of 6dof movement. I remember when I first started way back when, was it confusing to learn how to move at first, yes. was it impossible? hell no. Especially with the wealth of information available from people like A1, its something people can learn with even kb+m and be decent enough to have a good time in the PU.
They pitched us this game as a sim, preached about not thwarting individuals player skill and knowledge, and created one of the best multiplayer pvp environments I have ever experienced. Yet here we are with literal speed walls. Its not too late to say we messed up and revert it back to the previous fm. We tried MM, its bad, its okay to say we tried and work on other solutions. Just my 2¢ from what I miss from back then. Pls CIG 🙏🙏. Great video A1.
Yeah same. I came back and was like why can't I fly and have my shield anymore? Why is it hard to fly. Had to relearn to fly after a long break.
32:20 I'm a veteran backer of the game and been playing off and on since the old-ass hangar module. I have never voluntarily played less than 3.23 and now 3.24. Not even the early, buggy days of 3.18 that were riddled with server instability and bugs did I choose to play less than I do now.
Avenger speaks the truth. Although I may be a weirdo, I still wish we had the 2.4-2.5 flight model back. That was my favourite. Funny because back then it had SCM and CRUZ similar to Master Modes, I just found dogfighting more fun and flight controls and movement more intuitive. I feel like every flight model since has been trying to bring combat in closer by adding artificial limitations and changes that make it all more confusing and harder, like automatic acceleration limiters near planets, automatic hover modes, different input responses based off a speed limiter, control over speed instead of acceleration. I just want flying my ship to be simple, fun, complex, yet intuitive again, like driving a car. I feel like we had that back then.
Sincerely hope the devs listen and head these words.
To me if a solo fighter is a lethal treat to a hammerhead, a ship who''s solo purpose is to swat those things out of space without breaking a sweat and you do not see a problem with that, you are bad at designing a game and a universe.
They will never listen to the players, developer ego's get in the way.
The problem is, will they swallow their ego and actually listen? They're dumbing things down like we're idiots/children. Its why they added the "genius" idea of limiting speed when our landing gear is down. They think we're not intelligent enough to manually limit our own speeds 🤦
And again it's super exploitable as putting your gear down is the fastest way to slow down.
I just stopped playing when the flight model changed tbh. I'd been a consistent player from 2021 right up to the flight change, even through some of the buggiest periods. IMO they had the old system nearly right, it just needed balance passes and some of the other systems put in to make bigger ships more worthwhile using. Instead they threw out the baby with the bathwater.
Perhaps one day I'll try playing the new system again, but it didn't deliver on what they said it would. They wanted less jousty fights at closer range, but did that by limiting lateral movement and increasing the range on guns, which is directly counter-intuitive to those goals. In the meantime the money I had invested in peripherals and ships will just sit there idle and I certainly won't be paying anything more.
You can't even fly the race tracks in Arena Commander with these speeds. It's miserable for the racers.
Normally, I take issue with avenger on multiple things, but in this instance, he is spot on. I haven't had a rewarding dogfight since like 2 or 3 flight models ago. Well before the psychotic dance of "landing mode." I honestly avoid ship combat at all costs, not out of fear, but disdain.
A better explanation would be to tell a formula driver or any racing driver they can no longer use slip angle because only 1% of people can drive at the edge of grip
Ain't that the truth brother
Well done, AvangerOne! Thanks for bringing our feelings to feedback.
Btw, I laughed out loud when you say Tesla spaceship 😂
100% agree A1! I totally respect your view on this. I see two reasons for Master (nerf) Modes: Neutralize 'buy-to-win'. Really good pilots are going to win most of the time no matter what they are flying! And nerf the rest to make casual players competitive against serious players.
In real life, VERY few people can fly a modern fighter. LOTS of (enormously expensive) practice is required to get to a high level and most people can never get there if given the chance.
THIS is why they have Cargo, Mining, Salvage, FPS missions, etc. Make it realistic and let the chips fall.
Adding...I have stopped flight combat unless necessary. It is really upsetting! Probably will melt my F8C. And it is true that there are WAY less people in the game.
I hope engineering doesn't kill single player flight of mid-sized ships (C1/Atlas/Mercury). That would destroy SC.
They should remove NAV-mode and instead just make shield strength fade with speed/acceleration (which kind of makes sense in game).
Soft limits have never worked. Remember when we had to deal with our ships overheating and losing control constantly? Even that didn't limit speed, we all just went fast and complained our ships were overheating.
@@Super-id7bq I'm not proposing a soft limit (I believe), just an disincentive for going too fast.
@@SwedishYouthHumanist It is. If going fast means shield strength fades, then everyone is going to be flying with no shields, and complaining that they have no shields.
"Disincentives" don't work, hard limits do.
I don't agree that everyone would be flying fast AND complain, but sure, some will. I'd rather have that than a flight model I don't enjoy in a game built around flight.
@@CC-oi8gryou're making the same mistake as CIG. Hard limits also don't work because people will just abandon your game that is nothing more than one nerf stacked on top of another to try and force people to play how you think they should play
I'm a very novice pilot with no real training and I find Nav Modes more difficult to incorporate into a fight and as a result I'm less inclined to engage in combat.
I've basically packed it in until CIG work out what TF they're doing, not just with MM but with everything. Year 12 folks ... Year 12.
You brought up a good point. The problem is that they want ww2 style dog fights, but with 6dof, that is fundamentally impossible.. sounds like they really meant to make a 4dof space game
Wasn't sure what to expect coming into this video. But I think it represents a very good point of view for Ship to Ship PVP. Hopefully CIG is listening and will be able to design a flight model and weapons systems that will be more fun and rewarding for both fighters and multi-crew ships in the PVP environment with enough depth to keep it interesting.
I agree with Avenger_One entirely. Realistic space simulations must reward excellence.
If RSI is genuinely serious about making a meaningful game then it needs to be tough. Naturally, more ‘casual’ or new players entering such a perpetual universe who chose to not learn combat skills appropriately will be punished.
To balance gameplay properly for less competent (or new) pilots then the game provides ‘natural’ alternatives for example hiring protection escorts and learning in ‘safe’ areas.
Nice post. I hope Chris listens closely
until they get their shit togheter and fix space combat in my space game im not going to give them more money. currently i dont really care about combat anymore.
I have been a backer since 2013. I have my golden armour, which I only tell you so you know how much I'm invested into this game.
This entire time, I have not done PVP, at all! And the reason is, because I don't want to learn whatever the flight model is, only to have it change, and then change again, and then change again. Once the combat flight model is good to go, I will be diving into it.
What I want, is as complex a system as they can toss at us. I WANT the people who do this stuff all day every day to kick my ass.
And then I want those same people who kicked my ass to come crawling to me, begging me for a deal from my hydrogen fuel empire.
We all will get good at various aspects of the game, and we can't all be good at everything.
I want a space simulator, not a space arcade game
Extremely underrated comment!
I'm a casual player. I see it like this, 99% of pilots IRL are flying commercial, flying cesnas, flying helicopters for hospitals, etc. If an Air Force/Navy Pilot can't take out 7 of those dudes in a dog fight then what's the point. If I wanted fly through a dangerous place like Pyro, I should need to hire a pro pilot as an escort. Lawful areas need overwhelming security forces to prevent ganking. As for a light fighter fighting a carrack, it shouldn't be able to pop the shields in a 1v1
No commercial plane or aviation vehicle we have is weaponized. If they were? that argument might make sense. But we have every variant of ship with guns, cargo to racing. So.. no. the comparison is not remotely close. I do agree though that you should need to significantly overpower a carrack to win. Not one "pro" fighter, but several skilled pilots working together to separate turret angles and pick it apart. Even requiring a bigger ship like the Ion to actually punch those shields down
You wake up and the first thing you do is get a gun and armor. The game is not and has never been 'safe' to think anything designed in universe would not take that into account is just dull
Great critique of master modes and how it is not working in the way CIG is thinking. MM is also affecting PVE fighting as well with non-fighter and multi-crew ships having a very difficult time fighting now where they were viable in the past. There are also still too many undeveloped parts of the flight model like armor, components, AI crews, capital warfare, etc. that will affect how we fight. CIG needs to get these working ASAP. They can't just add these later. The foundation needs to come first.
1000% all these micro number changes are pointless atm, its either an alpha or a live service pick one.
What is the point of doing these 1% tunes when 3 or more crital flight systems are not in the game yet.
And its clear that more sweeping changes of MM handling needs to be changed so why focus on this small stuff right now. AGAIN they got down the bare minimum product and called it a day
@@PursauntYapper no, it's always excuse and blaming another system isn't working so it's not our fault... no... they can't go and deploy bare minimum product and call it a day after 12 years... simply no... they released theoretical MM which doesn't work didn't tested if it would work yet they defending as a good solution meanwhile failing to fine tune 2 light fighters 1 medium and 1 multicrew ship to use it as a proof of concept that MM indeed work as intedned but instead they did no balance nothing only talk and talk and no walk ... and it's even worse because they are not actively working on it... again excuse how after 4.0 ... which coincidently got delayed ... same pattern like Pyro delayed for multiple years... time is luxury they don't have
LOL bro! I'm waiting for physicalized components since 2014 🤣🤦♂️🤷♂️
@@flashbackflip that's another funny thing in a bunch of ships the components are too big to actually be taken in and out of the ship.
Like the Hull C
@@PursauntYapper It's the same way on the Crusader Mercury. The component bay openings are too small to actually remove or install anything.