Dr M. I think this by far this is your best guest or podcast. Esoterica is a channel out of this world. I will love to hear a conversation between you both about bruno, phenomenology and meditation... BTW I once tried, the instructions were unclear, now I funesthememorioused myself and can´t neither to forget nor to think.
Thanks so much for mentioning Bruno. We chatted a bit about him off camera and there might be a follow up. Any particular areas of phenomenology and meditation that strike your fancy? They're both rather huge topics.
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM Oh yes, many. Probably in the common ground and for brand sake, how this mnemonic rituals and meditations are experienced in the light of beliefs or lack of them and how that might affect the outcome. What the science tells us about it right now. I feel like transcription and mental constructions are ways of meditation. However is not the same for a religious non believer and a believer not religious, that is worth some phenomenological comparative studies. Just in the mystics of the middle ages there is probably another hour of gold. The Quincunx for memorizing all the psalms feels like a mantra. Other example is the Coena Cypriani as mentioned in The name of the rose looks like a really sacrilegious text, but acording to Eco is a mnemonic device. If it is just that, probably is more effective in the cleric than the clerk. I mean, my expirience with flashcards and the memory palace tradition, from time to time makes me think rituals are the social equivalent of spaced repetition, but if even in the abstraction both might be the same the expirience to the subject is not. Eating is not just calories.
Now that you mention Eco, you remind me that I should probably do something based on his final letter to his son. Have you read it? I can't find anything about the Quincunx for memorizing the Psalms? Do you have any books you can name where I should look? I've been meaning to re-read The Name of the Rose, so will look for that reference. I read it once many years before I even knew about memory techniques so probably didn't even notice it. I would agree that ritual is a kind of spaced repetition, and some of the critiques that we are losing such things and starting to pay the price make a lot of sense.
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM Well no, I had some VR Quincunx method from linguisticator manly a lenguage memory academy, acording to them the Quincunx were used to learn by heart every psalm, probably you can get that info from their web, that is were I get that from. Weirdly enough recently one day before you commented that I I begun to re read the name of the rose with my girlfriend, maybe re reading might be useful to your own detective stories. Would search the letter from Eco to his son. It´s a shame they never never gave him the nobel. Anyway thanks for answering Dr Metivier.
2 Titans in their field discussing memory and the psychological consequences of learning techniques, these are the conversations that will drive humanity forward
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM thank you for your work and your reply! I enjoy the way you contextualize the art of memory from within the subjects to apply as I go along (the recent planet video was perfect) thank you again for your efforts as you’ve helped bridge many disciplines for me.
Stephen skinner has done some fantastic work on the Ars Notoria, including an entire edition on the technique involved with the practice. Worth checking out if you're interested.
Thanks, I was just scrolling through to see if anyone mentioned this. Skinner even talks about some of his experimentation and the results he and others experienced in various interviews.
I started working with Stephen Skinner’s Ars Notoria material a few months ago and have experienced significant and generally very positive results, aside from a few experiences which were quite difficult and strange. It is uncannily effective.
Franz Bardon has a similar thing In the Initiation into Hermetics with rewinding in your mind your day every night before bed up to when you woke up. It has really helped my memory also Love to see Justin his channel is amazing
Interesting and many thanks. These days memory scientists and doctors who work in memory recovery call this kind of activity, "passive memory exercise." One exercise they recommend is called the 4-details exercise. Throughout the day you make a point of noting 4 details of something or someone you saw. Then, during the recall you are challenging your passive memory a bit more.
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM not yet but will buy the book and will be testing it out as discussed. Justin outlined the structured approach to prayer and an overall disciplinary process which appeals greatly. I've also listed to Skinner's videos that answer a few questions I had. I will make a video on this perhaps documenting my journey because it really is fascinating.
I subscribed to your channel based on this video, Anthony. Your generosity and depth of field with this knowledge is as fun, fascinating and engaging as Justin’s. I am 54… an ex Jehovahs Witness and have a fascination with mnemonics, rapid learning and even, YES… the forbidden “magicks”… just studying now but thank you so much for your work - I love Justin’s work and now your perspectives… fantastic! 🙏🏻
This channel deserves way more views. Keep up the great videos.🙏🙏 I loved this discution for a number of reasons. The idea of learning history and how things change yet remain the same and neurodivergence and perspectives the lares of issues or topics raised and how they relate.
Very interesting video. I'm a huge fan of Justin Sledge's Esoterica and it was really interesting to hear him talk about his personal views. My interest in these old esoteric texts and teaching comes from a similar place - I'm not a believer but this stuff is just so fascinating and interesting for some reason. When I study something like Ars Notoria I do try to put myself in a mind space where I "pretend" to believe though. I think that helps with understanding and relating to the text. Like a one person role playing game in my mind, where I try to force myself to look at it like I imagine a believer or practitioner would have at the time. I also like to meditate on a text from that point of view.
@esoterica Personally I came on this vid cause I'm familiar with Justin's immaculate research in his channel . Anthony seems to be good too. This was a very educational and entertaining discussion 🎉 Thank u both ❤ 1:15:40
Hello fellow Anthony. Thank you for the videos. I have fallen down the memory rabbit holes before and have been fascinated with Bruno and Lull drawings before. Recently I fell down the Hermetic tradition rabbit hole and am right back to the memory tradition and Bruno's work. Something keeps bringing me back and it does feel like maybe I am meant to learn about this. Some interesting things I have been reading that might interest you, Carl Jung's Red Book. His process of Active Imagination seems very similar to the practice described in the Ars Notoria. Is is a meditative practice to inspect the subconscious and not just a memory tool. I suspect that the effectives as a memory tool is secondary to the fact that the symbols are tied to the subconscious. Jung mentioned that it is first important to become familiar with symbols so that the practice of Active Imagination becomes easier. As to why the symbols are tied to Astrology I hypothesize that this is because the stars are the same for us as our ancestors. I think temples where built aligned to the stars for similar reasons. By using astrology symbols, it allows us to make a connection to archetypes of the past and have figures that are unchanging across generations. I do feel like the warnings in the Ars Notoria are correct. Coming to understand patterns in your subconscious could lead to "visions" that are disturbing and you may start to notice patterns in your thinking you might not have been able to notice or interpret before becoming acquainted with the symbols. Jung had is own visions that later led him to become a psychologist. J.R.R Tolkien had a similar experience. Look for the video Jung, Tolkien and the Hermeneutics of Vision -- Dr. Lance S. Owens ua-cam.com/video/GxVaxOco7kg/v-deo.html
Thanks so much for this. It certainly does make sense to put as much study as one can into the use of symbols. And sharing stars and other patterns with our ancestors certainly can create great symbolic value when we choose to reflect on that and generate ideas and emotions around it. I'm doing more research now for a long term book project on possible negative effects of these techniques. There will be some anecdotal notes based on my own experiences as well. But coming up next is a study of Bruno. In fact, the first draft is done. I'm just going to let it gestate for awhile. I mentioned it a bit in this latest study of Alexander Dicsone's moon Memory Palace technique: ua-cam.com/video/9QF4AihKmbo/v-deo.html In the meantime, thanks for the link. I'll check it out!
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM I have not but two of my friends published the latest version of it, Stephen Skinner and Daniel Clark. I do however use some mnemonic techniques that i ve developed and later found them to be lullian or trithemian. The whole art of memory is an old love of mine because it was the passion of my favourite writer, I.P.Culianu. I ve yet to buy the two volumes of the Ars Notoria but I am nonetheless fascinated by it.
It is indeed fascinating and great about Culianu. What would you say is his top book to read and one that goes into memory if that isn't the top book? I'll have to look at the latest version and as I think came up in this talk, yet another version is slated to come out. I have an inkling of trying to do something of a case study by memorizing at least part of it. Kind of like I did with Hugh of St. Victor's Ark here: ua-cam.com/video/Nv3WSP1f4y0/v-deo.html
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM I think ”Eros and Magic in the Renaissance” is simply awesome. In one chapter he casually tells us the link to one of Trithemius” techniques and shows us how the incantations for one of the princes of the air is simply a code, like nothing happens. Culianu links with this field because he was highly interested in Bruno and ars memoria as a young man and once he had a chance to study it he became extremely good in a lot of fields and languages. He was known for delving practically in his study. In his book Tozgrec the main character, who is a lot like himself, is going full Solomonic on a summoning ritual.
Thanks for this background and context. I will do my best to get it read a.s.a.p. I don't know if you've seen, but recently I've started working from Aristotle up in history in this new playlist: ua-cam.com/video/_3N2i73LKt0/v-deo.html I may skip around, and if Culianu was into Bruno, that is great to know indeed. It's hard to find people who can "square the circle" (so to speak) of how memory training can create nondual experiences that make pantheism and pretty much all isms irrelevant. At least while the practitioner is in the magic of flow.
What do you mean by lets talk religion and Arabic, brother? I didn't get your message. Could you elaborate more on that and explain what you meant to me. I'm interested in everything that is connected with mnemonics and languages in particular
Ahhh Yeahhh 🤓 I was muchly chuffed too see two of my most favourite content curators coming together 💖 I got all Eeexxx-i-bubbling over, so I did 👨🎤🧕🕵️♀️👩🎓 I'm a newish to Islam revert, so shall surely be taking on Qu'ranic Arabic soon, very excited about that I is 2-da-lu 👋👋👋 Sending Thanks 2 U ;xD
Dr Stephen Skinner has done the experiment with some other people to see how good the book works. He could be a great guest to inquire further into the practical application of the book.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've just received the new Matthias Castle translation and will be interviewing him soon. Is there any particular aspect of the application and promised outcome of Ars Notoria that you're interested in?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM From what I understood it should help with memory encoding and recall of the materials learned in the universitas. From what I have experimented with and studied contemplative magic seems to be constructed in such a way that it gives the focal attention something to focus on so that that what is on the peripheral attention absorbs the rest and can get into the subconscious. However for memory this kind of absorbsing get's poor recall. So it might be that it creates a supportive system in the subconcious mind where the knowledge is hooked in too and thus recalled easier. Maybe it creates in that way a kind of mind palace subconciously where the student finds himself in when recalling the information. Exploring amongs these lines seems very interesting to me.
Very interesting conversation! I was surprised to see that Dr. sledge isn’t a practitioner, but I guess with his normal state being Nirvana it kind of make sense 😊 would have been interesting to cover even briefly Dr. Skinner’s ars notaria method b which came out some months ago. Keep up the great work 👍
Thanks for mentioning the Skinner text. I have no idea why the great search engines of our time did not reveal this edition to me, but I will review how I am using them. Have you read it and/or applied the notions?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM you’re welcome. No I haven’t, I was considering using it, but I’m going through some of John Dee’s writings at the moment. I think that for many practitioners the Ars Notaria’s time & effort vs “payback” doesn’t make it that appealing. As you said in your video, you basically study hard with the right mindset for 4 months, so you are bound to get some improvements with or without divine intervention. Many other grimoires and/or practices provide more direct life changing experiences for the same amount of personal investment needed by the Ars Notaria.
I would love to talk to Justin about metaphysical implications of the current state of theoretical physics where in spite of the counterintuitive nature of quantum mechanics it now seems that math and geometry indeed underlie the universes physical laws, which to me bares something striking platonic.
Penrose seems to say as much in The Road to Reality. But it still leads to a “so what” at the end. What changes if reality is Platonic? What changes if it isn’t?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM I suggest Vanni De Luca. Vanni De Luca is a performer, speaker, actor and the greatest Italian mnemonist around. You can see his performances on UA-cam and he has collaborated with other Italian educators. He is also a great connoisseur of the history of the art of memorizing. His English level is very good and he would be a perfect candidate for your show. Moreover, He has recently participated to the Fringe Festival in Edimburgh with a very intersting show.
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM Yes I have. It is a nice introduction book to the world of mnemonics. Each chapter begins with the story of a famous man or woman related to the memory world. When talking about "chunking" he introduces the life of the chess player Kotanosky, for example. One more info about Vanni. He studied the Divine Comedy by heart for his show where he randomly recite the D C while solving a Rubik's cube.
In my Electrical Circuits 1 and 2 class I technically used Runecrafting. We were allowed a cheat sheet for exams. I went to every lecture but never studied and never did the homework because it wasn't graded. When it came time to make the cheat sheet I would spend almost half a day crafting them before the exam putting my full focus on them like I was crafting a rune. I made an A on every single test in both those classes sometimes even being the highest.
Dr. Sledge mentioned that "there are no reliable complete English editions of it (the Ars Notoria) out yet". I'm curious, is Dr. Skinner's publication not considered complete or reliable?
I'm not sure which publication you mean, but I find his videos very thorough and well-documented so that it's possible to follow up on what he's talking about. That's better than reliability because relying on just one scholar is a dead end, which is why good scholars use citations frequently, thoroughly and with as much accuracy as humanly possible. Does this response help answer your question?
Cheetah House? Can you place a link to this? I can’t seem to find it based on what I think I am hearing. A large amount of my own clinic has been founded upon treating people who became damaged through incorrect practices of meditation and qigong. Is this their focus?
Isitpossible that something is making me get extreamly angry and violent since I started stupidly messing with the goatia and grimoires without really knowing to much about what I was actually doing?
do you think all magic is psychosematic and plecebus? i like to think its not but if pondered on enough i come to the conclusion everything is mental. am i creating a false loop that is hindering my progress too figuring my mind out fully by focusing on emotions brought forth by wimsicle believing something i have no empericle evidence for?
In order for everything to be mental, one mind would have to know the definition of "everything." One of the greatest memory masters concluded what is *probably* true, which is that reality is an emergent property and there is no everything, because reality lacks that which it is becoming. I don't know if you're creating a false loop or not, but according to Fludd, who is the memory master I'm referring to, if you think that everything is mental, then your definition of "everything" probably needs review. Bruno said similar things, as did Aristotle, who was also a great memory master. As for believing in things for which there is no empirical evidence, this is ultimately a question of free will. If you want to escape what is ultimately probably not a good thing, then you'll want to use the acts of will that you do have to continually bump into people like myself who point out that belief is simply not necessary. True things don't require belief. Why would they?
Thanks for checking this one out. Apparently the new edition of Ars Notoria is now available in some parts of the world. Still waiting for its release here.
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM I don’t think there is any, but from my personal experience online and within in-person occult spaces (particularly Thelema) traits are prevalent. I think lots of folks are undiagnosed. I was for a while, and after I got my diagnosis I started to see it just about everywhere. Talking to other Thelemites about my diagnosis, they’d say “that sounds a lot like me.” I wanted to study occult populations as a researcher in social psychology, but psychology isn’t easy-going on anything “metaphysical.” I have my B.S. in Psychology and minor in religious studies, and honestly it should be an easy study or survey to run. Dr. Puca or someone else could probably do it. My guess as to “why” this may be… traits of autism are often found in the hard sciences, and some say if you got rid of autism you’d rid the world of the hyper-focus and intensity that many famous scientists who made massive discoveries had (Darwin, etc). Well, the occult and science used to be pretty immeshed. So it would make sense, at least to me, that ASD + the occult (alchemy, astrology, etc) might be connected going back somewhat. Lots of occult subjects involve intense graphs and charts, and the detailed-oriented mind of someone w/ ASD could easily get into that, or work with it. There is also tons of routine in occult ritual also. Doing the exact same ritual the exact same way at the exact same time at sunset/morning/evening? Sounds like a task someone with ASD can do, long-term, without getting bored as easily. 😂 Plus, the predicability of the full moon cycle, or predictions via the stars or other divination tools is also something to note since autistics thrive on predictability and routine. Lots of meditative practices also that might be calming to those with sensory sensitivity. Those with sensory sensitivities, such as in ASD might be able to pick up on certain smells or noises which could be good when working with entities / spirits. In the modern day, lots of autistics have to mask which can contribute to identity confusion. And having a path such as “the great work” has been helpful, at least for me in “unmasking.” Some autistics are great with math or languages, and if you have these strengths, then digging into ancient alchemical texts could easily become an interest. Plus, autistics (like myself) do tend to collect things. Some like crystals / rocks, etc. This might apply more to new-age or witchy folks who enjoy these more than ceremonial magicians. Final edit: Overall, western esotericism is a massive playground for ASD and neurodivergence I think. Honestly, anyone who wants to pick on those interested in western esotericism, are likely bullying autistics for their special interest, which may also happen to be their academic pursuit/job or spiritual path/religion. Just my $0.93 👀
I can see this line of thinking panning out, and too bad that the sciences tend to marginalize these traditions. I do also see signs that this is changing myself, though. Even Dawkins talking about being a cultural Christian is a kind of sign. Whether yourself or someone else, this does seem like a story/non-fiction guide of sorts with an argument that needs to be made. One thing I can say for sure now that you mention it is that I cannot for the life of my find an "inner OCD" to actually stick with any rituals. I'm going to interview Michael Taft soon, who I believe has some background with Magick, so I'll strive to remember to ask him about this and see if I can't bring up your post. Many thanks for expanding in such detail.
"Now this book, the [Ars] Notoria, at first glance(that is outwardly) appeared to be holy and of all books themost beautiful and useful and even the most holy, becausethe writing in it has to be done in diverse colours and thereare extremely beautiful figures in it coloured in diversecolours. It is a very short book, and by means of it theomnipotent God promises and bestows on the operators in abrief time the acquisition of all the sciences of scripture andthe arts. In it are holy and wondrous prayers and figures ofwhich the mystery, as it says therein, is rather a miraclethan a normal exemplar of erudition. O cunning of theancient serpent! O furor of the envious lion, circling andseeking someone to devour!34 This is the craftiness of theravening wolf! O false hypocrisy of the enemy, you whoappear outwardly in sheep’s clothing, inwardly a raveningwolf! You cannot deny this to me, you cannot conceal it; Ihave tested you, I have discovered you, and I have seen youin the aforesaid book, most ingeniously contained! For I,John, have proven in actual fact, through myself andthrough many other witnesses, that this book, the ArsNotoria, is without doubt a fountainhead of malice, originof deviation, teacher of error, bag of tricks, river of iniquity,false advocate of grace; in it peace is bound to hatred, faithto falsehood, hope to fear, and madness is mixed withreason. This Art is a pleasant tempest, a brightly lit night, atwilit day, a live death, a foolish reason, and a deviantprudence; it is evanescent prosperity, sick pleasure, unguentoutwardly sweet but fatally poisonous within. It is a sadparadise, which first pleases, second wounds, third kills. Itis outwardly a mild lamb but inwardly a ravening wolf; ahoney of bitterness and a sweetness of absinthe; a trueargument but a false solution. First it lays out its assump-tion, which is sweet and true; second, it makes its declara-tion, which is bitter and false; third, it brings all to a con-clusion in an evil end. It deceives everyone using it andleads to the darkness of perdition. By it are all evils com-pounded, and more, because without it nothing can beaccomplished in necromancy; in fact inasmuch as it is themore subtle [art], it is the more deceptive." - Liber Visionum of John of Morigny speaking of the Ars Notoria
Lol how can he read all this as an Academic and not see the truth in many of these magic occult systems? Must be just saying that. I still love his channel
Learn more about the Ars Notoria here on Dr. Sledge's incredible channel: ua-cam.com/video/vv0plm9SVIo/v-deo.html
Dr M. I think this by far this is your best guest or podcast. Esoterica is a channel out of this world. I will love to hear a conversation between you both about bruno, phenomenology and meditation... BTW I once tried, the instructions were unclear, now I funesthememorioused myself and can´t neither to forget nor to think.
Thanks so much for mentioning Bruno. We chatted a bit about him off camera and there might be a follow up.
Any particular areas of phenomenology and meditation that strike your fancy? They're both rather huge topics.
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM Oh yes, many. Probably in the common ground and for brand sake, how this mnemonic rituals and meditations are experienced in the light of beliefs or lack of them and how that might affect the outcome. What the science tells us about it right now. I feel like transcription and mental constructions are ways of meditation. However is not the same for a religious non believer and a believer not religious, that is worth some phenomenological comparative studies.
Just in the mystics of the middle ages there is probably another hour of gold. The Quincunx for memorizing all the psalms feels like a mantra. Other example is the Coena Cypriani as mentioned in The name of the rose looks like a really sacrilegious text, but acording to Eco is a mnemonic device. If it is just that, probably is more effective in the cleric than the clerk.
I mean, my expirience with flashcards and the memory palace tradition, from time to time makes me think rituals are the social equivalent of spaced repetition, but if even in the abstraction both might be the same the expirience to the subject is not. Eating is not just calories.
Now that you mention Eco, you remind me that I should probably do something based on his final letter to his son. Have you read it?
I can't find anything about the Quincunx for memorizing the Psalms? Do you have any books you can name where I should look?
I've been meaning to re-read The Name of the Rose, so will look for that reference. I read it once many years before I even knew about memory techniques so probably didn't even notice it.
I would agree that ritual is a kind of spaced repetition, and some of the critiques that we are losing such things and starting to pay the price make a lot of sense.
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM Well no, I had some VR Quincunx method from linguisticator manly a lenguage memory academy, acording to them the Quincunx were used to learn by heart every psalm, probably you can get that info from their web, that is were I get that from.
Weirdly enough recently one day before you commented that I I begun to re read the name of the rose with my girlfriend, maybe re reading might be useful to your own detective stories. Would search the letter from Eco to his son. It´s a shame they never never gave him the nobel.
Anyway thanks for answering Dr Metivier.
2 Titans in their field discussing memory and the psychological consequences of learning techniques, these are the conversations that will drive humanity forward
Thanks for checking this one out and for your kind words.
Anything you'd like to see covered on the channel moving forward?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM thank you for your work and your reply!
I enjoy the way you contextualize the art of memory from within the subjects to apply as I go along (the recent planet video was perfect) thank you again for your efforts as you’ve helped bridge many disciplines for me.
Happy to serve and thanks again for your comments. Talk soon!
Stephen skinner has done some fantastic work on the Ars Notoria, including an entire edition on the technique involved with the practice. Worth checking out if you're interested.
🙏
Thanks, I was just scrolling through to see if anyone mentioned this. Skinner even talks about some of his experimentation and the results he and others experienced in various interviews.
Skinner is the goat in it
I started working with Stephen Skinner’s Ars Notoria material a few months ago and have experienced significant and generally very positive results, aside from a few experiences which were quite difficult and strange. It is uncannily effective.
Sounds great. Any specifics on what the results are and how they are attributed to which specific parts of the practice?
Wow, interesting! What happened?
Exactly what happened? How do we know you’re not full of shit?
Fascinating dude- I like his sense of respect and fairness that he talks about at the beginning...gonna watch all of this interview.
Thanks so much for checking this one out and posting.
Anything you'd like to see covered in future episodes?
Franz Bardon has a similar thing In the Initiation into Hermetics with rewinding in your mind your day every night before bed up to when you woke up. It has really helped my memory also Love to see Justin his channel is amazing
Interesting and many thanks.
These days memory scientists and doctors who work in memory recovery call this kind of activity, "passive memory exercise."
One exercise they recommend is called the 4-details exercise. Throughout the day you make a point of noting 4 details of something or someone you saw.
Then, during the recall you are challenging your passive memory a bit more.
We are all blessed to have these conversations 🙏 Thank you
Thanks so much for listening and commenting.
Have you ever tried this technique or techniques like the Ars Notoria?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM not yet but will buy the book and will be testing it out as discussed. Justin outlined the structured approach to prayer and an overall disciplinary process which appeals greatly. I've also listed to Skinner's videos that answer a few questions I had. I will make a video on this perhaps documenting my journey because it really is fascinating.
Anthony, you are constantly putting out great content, longer form, and shorts. Keep it up and thank you for all your training. Gratitude!!
Thanks as always for your support! Will do!
Two of my favorite current day academics having an incredible discussion… thank you for sharing your knowledge
Our pleasure! Thanks for your kind words and for checking it out.
Any particular info you're currently committing to memory or otherwise learning?
No way my two favorite channels together;)
Thanks for checking it out!
Anthony, this was fantastic! He is so knowledgeable and well spoken. This was everything in my wheelhouse! Thank you so much!
Glad you caught this one. It's fascinating stuff!
I subscribed to your channel based on this video, Anthony. Your generosity and depth of field with this knowledge is as fun, fascinating and engaging as Justin’s. I am 54… an ex Jehovahs Witness and have a fascination with mnemonics, rapid learning and even, YES… the forbidden “magicks”… just studying now but thank you so much for your work - I love Justin’s work and now your perspectives… fantastic! 🙏🏻
Thanks for joining us, for your kind words and above all for being part of the discussion.
This channel deserves way more views. Keep up the great videos.🙏🙏 I loved this discution for a number of reasons. The idea of learning history and how things change yet remain the same and neurodivergence and perspectives the lares of issues or topics raised and how they relate.
Thanks so much for your support.
Anything you’d like to see covered as the program rolls forward? 🙏
Very interesting video. I'm a huge fan of Justin Sledge's Esoterica and it was really interesting to hear him talk about his personal views. My interest in these old esoteric texts and teaching comes from a similar place - I'm not a believer but this stuff is just so fascinating and interesting for some reason. When I study something like Ars Notoria I do try to put myself in a mind space where I "pretend" to believe though. I think that helps with understanding and relating to the text. Like a one person role playing game in my mind, where I try to force myself to look at it like I imagine a believer or practitioner would have at the time. I also like to meditate on a text from that point of view.
Yes, “as if” thinking is key to many aspects of many sciences and philosophies. 🙏
Good interview Anthony. I also enjoyed the mild history lesson, throughout the video.
Thanks for listening. I'm inspired to dig more into the history of this era myself. A fascinating country, as Justin put it.
@esoterica
Personally I came on this vid cause I'm familiar with Justin's immaculate research in his channel . Anthony seems to be good too.
This was a very educational and entertaining discussion 🎉
Thank u both ❤ 1:15:40
Thanks for stopping by. Justin's channel is indeed great!
So glad I clicked on this! Amazing.
🙏
Hello fellow Anthony. Thank you for the videos. I have fallen down the memory rabbit holes before and have been fascinated with Bruno and Lull drawings before. Recently I fell down the Hermetic tradition rabbit hole and am right back to the memory tradition and Bruno's work. Something keeps bringing me back and it does feel like maybe I am meant to learn about this.
Some interesting things I have been reading that might interest you, Carl Jung's Red Book. His process of Active Imagination seems very similar to the practice described in the Ars Notoria. Is is a meditative practice to inspect the subconscious and not just a memory tool. I suspect that the effectives as a memory tool is secondary to the fact that the symbols are tied to the subconscious. Jung mentioned that it is first important to become familiar with symbols so that the practice of Active Imagination becomes easier.
As to why the symbols are tied to Astrology I hypothesize that this is because the stars are the same for us as our ancestors. I think temples where built aligned to the stars for similar reasons. By using astrology symbols, it allows us to make a connection to archetypes of the past and have figures that are unchanging across generations.
I do feel like the warnings in the Ars Notoria are correct. Coming to understand patterns in your subconscious could lead to "visions" that are disturbing and you may start to notice patterns in your thinking you might not have been able to notice or interpret before becoming acquainted with the symbols. Jung had is own visions that later led him to become a psychologist. J.R.R Tolkien had a similar experience. Look for the video Jung, Tolkien and the Hermeneutics of Vision -- Dr. Lance S. Owens
ua-cam.com/video/GxVaxOco7kg/v-deo.html
Thanks so much for this.
It certainly does make sense to put as much study as one can into the use of symbols. And sharing stars and other patterns with our ancestors certainly can create great symbolic value when we choose to reflect on that and generate ideas and emotions around it.
I'm doing more research now for a long term book project on possible negative effects of these techniques. There will be some anecdotal notes based on my own experiences as well.
But coming up next is a study of Bruno. In fact, the first draft is done. I'm just going to let it gestate for awhile. I mentioned it a bit in this latest study of Alexander Dicsone's moon Memory Palace technique:
ua-cam.com/video/9QF4AihKmbo/v-deo.html
In the meantime, thanks for the link. I'll check it out!
such an awesome interaction !
Thanks for checking it out. Have you read or worked with the Ars Notoria?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM I have not but two of my friends published the latest version of it, Stephen Skinner and Daniel Clark. I do however use some mnemonic techniques that i ve developed and later found them to be lullian or trithemian. The whole art of memory is an old love of mine because it was the passion of my favourite writer, I.P.Culianu. I ve yet to buy the two volumes of the Ars Notoria but I am nonetheless fascinated by it.
It is indeed fascinating and great about Culianu. What would you say is his top book to read and one that goes into memory if that isn't the top book?
I'll have to look at the latest version and as I think came up in this talk, yet another version is slated to come out. I have an inkling of trying to do something of a case study by memorizing at least part of it. Kind of like I did with Hugh of St. Victor's Ark here:
ua-cam.com/video/Nv3WSP1f4y0/v-deo.html
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM I think ”Eros and Magic in the Renaissance” is simply awesome. In one chapter he casually tells us the link to one of Trithemius” techniques and shows us how the incantations for one of the princes of the air is simply a code, like nothing happens. Culianu links with this field because he was highly interested in Bruno and ars memoria as a young man and once he had a chance to study it he became extremely good in a lot of fields and languages. He was known for delving practically in his study. In his book Tozgrec the main character, who is a lot like himself, is going full Solomonic on a summoning ritual.
Thanks for this background and context. I will do my best to get it read a.s.a.p.
I don't know if you've seen, but recently I've started working from Aristotle up in history in this new playlist:
ua-cam.com/video/_3N2i73LKt0/v-deo.html
I may skip around, and if Culianu was into Bruno, that is great to know indeed. It's hard to find people who can "square the circle" (so to speak) of how memory training can create nondual experiences that make pantheism and pretty much all isms irrelevant. At least while the practitioner is in the magic of flow.
thank you !!!!
🙏
wish i knew about this during school
Better late than never if you’re interested in learning and applying the techniques now.
This colab makes a lot of sense. I wonder if lets talk religion has something on arabic mnemonics.
I've always wondered the same thing, and if there was a recorded Arabic mnemonic tradition
That would be fascinating to learn more about. There's probably something.
Are you learning Arabic yourself?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM No sir. Plane old medicine for me right now :(
What do you mean by lets talk religion and Arabic, brother? I didn't get your message. Could you elaborate more on that and explain what you meant to me. I'm interested in everything that is connected with mnemonics and languages in particular
Ahhh Yeahhh 🤓
I was muchly chuffed too see two of my most favourite content curators coming together 💖
I got all Eeexxx-i-bubbling over, so I did 👨🎤🧕🕵️♀️👩🎓
I'm a newish to Islam revert, so shall surely be taking on Qu'ranic Arabic soon, very excited about that I is 2-da-lu 👋👋👋
Sending Thanks 2 U ;xD
Subbed. Thank you for this wonderful interview.
🙏
Dr Stephen Skinner has done the experiment with some other people to see how good the book works. He could be a great guest to inquire further into the practical application of the book.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've just received the new Matthias Castle translation and will be interviewing him soon.
Is there any particular aspect of the application and promised outcome of Ars Notoria that you're interested in?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM From what I understood it should help with memory encoding and recall of the materials learned in the universitas.
From what I have experimented with and studied contemplative magic seems to be constructed in such a way that it gives the focal attention something to focus on so that that what is on the peripheral attention absorbs the rest and can get into the subconscious.
However for memory this kind of absorbsing get's poor recall. So it might be that it creates a supportive system in the subconcious mind where the knowledge is hooked in too and thus recalled easier.
Maybe it creates in that way a kind of mind palace subconciously where the student finds himself in when recalling the information.
Exploring amongs these lines seems very interesting to me.
The promise and possible explanations are indeed interesting. :-)
Id love to see Dr sledge talk to dr Stephen skinner
Anthony, what's the name of the author mentioned in 43:26?
Thanks for checking this out and asking.
I believe Justin is referring to Cecco d'Ascoli.
Very interesting conversation! I was surprised to see that Dr. sledge isn’t a practitioner, but I guess with his normal state being Nirvana it kind of make sense 😊 would have been interesting to cover even briefly Dr. Skinner’s ars notaria method b which came out some months ago.
Keep up the great work 👍
Thanks for mentioning the Skinner text.
I have no idea why the great search engines of our time did not reveal this edition to me, but I will review how I am using them.
Have you read it and/or applied the notions?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM you’re welcome.
No I haven’t, I was considering using it, but I’m going through some of John Dee’s writings at the moment.
I think that for many practitioners the Ars Notaria’s time & effort vs “payback” doesn’t make it that appealing. As you said in your video, you basically study hard with the right mindset for 4 months, so you are bound to get some improvements with or without divine intervention. Many other grimoires and/or practices provide more direct life changing experiences for the same amount of personal investment needed by the Ars Notaria.
Interesting.
Do you have any experiences you can share based on other practices?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM sure, I dropped you an email earlier on.
Many thanks for that.
I would suggest sharing what you mentioned here. Your findings will surely be interesting to us all if that works for you.
I'd listen to Stephen Skinner who is a practician and a respected academician on the topic.
🙏
I would love to talk to Justin about metaphysical implications of the current state of theoretical physics where in spite of the counterintuitive nature of quantum mechanics it now seems that math and geometry indeed underlie the universes physical laws, which to me bares something striking platonic.
Penrose seems to say as much in The Road to Reality. But it still leads to a “so what” at the end. What changes if reality is Platonic? What changes if it isn’t?
Amazing as usual !!!
Glad you could check it out!
Any other potential guests you’d like to see on the show?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM I suggest Vanni De Luca. Vanni De Luca is a performer, speaker, actor and the greatest Italian mnemonist around. You can see his performances on UA-cam and he has collaborated with other Italian educators. He is also a great connoisseur of the history of the art of memorizing. His English level is very good and he would be a perfect candidate for your show. Moreover, He has recently participated to the Fringe Festival in Edimburgh with a very intersting show.
Okay, cool. I'll see if I can get in touch with him.
Have you read his book?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM Yes I have. It is a nice introduction book to the world of mnemonics. Each chapter begins with the story of a famous man or woman related to the memory world. When talking about "chunking" he introduces the life of the chess player Kotanosky, for example. One more info about Vanni. He studied the Divine Comedy by heart for his show where he randomly recite the D C while solving a Rubik's cube.
That's cool! I've been reading Inferno myself recently in a bilingual edition. Great poetry!
In my Electrical Circuits 1 and 2 class I technically used Runecrafting. We were allowed a cheat sheet for exams. I went to every lecture but never studied and never did the homework because it wasn't graded. When it came time to make the cheat sheet I would spend almost half a day crafting them before the exam putting my full focus on them like I was crafting a rune. I made an A on every single test in both those classes sometimes even being the highest.
Great example - many thanks! 🙏
Can you explain what you mean by runecrafting?
Dr. Sledge mentioned that "there are no reliable complete English editions of it (the Ars Notoria) out yet". I'm curious, is Dr. Skinner's publication not considered complete or reliable?
I'm not sure which publication you mean, but I find his videos very thorough and well-documented so that it's possible to follow up on what he's talking about. That's better than reliability because relying on just one scholar is a dead end, which is why good scholars use citations frequently, thoroughly and with as much accuracy as humanly possible.
Does this response help answer your question?
Cheetah House?
Can you place a link to this? I can’t seem to find it based on what I think I am hearing.
A large amount of my own clinic has been founded upon treating people who became damaged through incorrect practices of meditation and qigong. Is this their focus?
Strange. It’s top of page one when I search it exactly as you’ve spelled it.
Maybe add “meditation and depersonalization” to your search.
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM 🐆
Found it! Thanks. My algorithm knows his much I like animals, apparently.
😅
Excited to hear what they have been learning!
Maybe one day the algos will be our angels... ;-)
A rational explanation of the efficacy of the Ars Notoria?
This could be it.
Isitpossible that something is making me get extreamly angry and violent since I started stupidly messing with the goatia and grimoires without really knowing to much about what I was actually doing?
Yes, psychosomatic and placebo effects are possible. I talk a bit about this in The Victorious Mind.
do you think all magic is psychosematic and plecebus? i like to think its not but if pondered on enough i come to the conclusion everything is mental. am i creating a false loop that is hindering my progress too figuring my mind out fully by focusing on emotions brought forth by wimsicle believing something i have no empericle evidence for?
In order for everything to be mental, one mind would have to know the definition of "everything."
One of the greatest memory masters concluded what is *probably* true, which is that reality is an emergent property and there is no everything, because reality lacks that which it is becoming.
I don't know if you're creating a false loop or not, but according to Fludd, who is the memory master I'm referring to, if you think that everything is mental, then your definition of "everything" probably needs review. Bruno said similar things, as did Aristotle, who was also a great memory master.
As for believing in things for which there is no empirical evidence, this is ultimately a question of free will. If you want to escape what is ultimately probably not a good thing, then you'll want to use the acts of will that you do have to continually bump into people like myself who point out that belief is simply not necessary. True things don't require belief. Why would they?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM 🙏
Barely a minute in and you've already triggered so much, thanks 😂 👏 👏 👏
Thanks for checking this one out.
Apparently the new edition of Ars Notoria is now available in some parts of the world. Still waiting for its release here.
😇😇😇
Angels abound!
54:50 autism is so prevalent in the western esotericism community 😅❤️
It would be interesting to see if there's any research on this.
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM I don’t think there is any, but from my personal experience online and within in-person occult spaces (particularly Thelema) traits are prevalent.
I think lots of folks are undiagnosed. I was for a while, and after I got my diagnosis I started to see it just about everywhere. Talking to other Thelemites about my diagnosis, they’d say “that sounds a lot like me.”
I wanted to study occult populations as a researcher in social psychology, but psychology isn’t easy-going on anything “metaphysical.”
I have my B.S. in Psychology and minor in religious studies, and honestly it should be an easy study or survey to run. Dr. Puca or someone else could probably do it.
My guess as to “why” this may be… traits of autism are often found in the hard sciences, and some say if you got rid of autism you’d rid the world of the hyper-focus and intensity that many famous scientists who made massive discoveries had (Darwin, etc).
Well, the occult and science used to be pretty immeshed. So it would make sense, at least to me, that ASD + the occult (alchemy, astrology, etc) might be connected going back somewhat.
Lots of occult subjects involve intense graphs and charts, and the detailed-oriented mind of someone w/ ASD could easily get into that, or work with it.
There is also tons of routine in occult ritual also. Doing the exact same ritual the exact same way at the exact same time at sunset/morning/evening? Sounds like a task someone with ASD can do, long-term, without getting bored as easily. 😂
Plus, the predicability of the full moon cycle, or predictions via the stars or other divination tools is also something to note since autistics thrive on predictability and routine.
Lots of meditative practices also that might be calming to those with sensory sensitivity. Those with sensory sensitivities, such as in ASD might be able to pick up on certain smells or noises which could be good when working with entities / spirits.
In the modern day, lots of autistics have to mask which can contribute to identity confusion. And having a path such as “the great work” has been helpful, at least for me in “unmasking.”
Some autistics are great with math or languages, and if you have these strengths, then digging into ancient alchemical texts could easily become an interest.
Plus, autistics (like myself) do tend to collect things. Some like crystals / rocks, etc. This might apply more to new-age or witchy folks who enjoy these more than ceremonial magicians.
Final edit: Overall, western esotericism is a massive playground for ASD and neurodivergence I think.
Honestly, anyone who wants to pick on those interested in western esotericism, are likely bullying autistics for their special interest, which may also happen to be their academic pursuit/job or spiritual path/religion.
Just my $0.93 👀
I can see this line of thinking panning out, and too bad that the sciences tend to marginalize these traditions. I do also see signs that this is changing myself, though. Even Dawkins talking about being a cultural Christian is a kind of sign.
Whether yourself or someone else, this does seem like a story/non-fiction guide of sorts with an argument that needs to be made.
One thing I can say for sure now that you mention it is that I cannot for the life of my find an "inner OCD" to actually stick with any rituals.
I'm going to interview Michael Taft soon, who I believe has some background with Magick, so I'll strive to remember to ask him about this and see if I can't bring up your post. Many thanks for expanding in such detail.
"Now this book, the [Ars] Notoria, at first glance(that is outwardly) appeared to be holy and of all books themost beautiful and useful and even the most holy, becausethe writing in it has to be done in diverse colours and thereare extremely beautiful figures in it coloured in diversecolours. It is a very short book, and by means of it theomnipotent God promises and bestows on the operators in abrief time the acquisition of all the sciences of scripture andthe arts. In it are holy and wondrous prayers and figures ofwhich the mystery, as it says therein, is rather a miraclethan a normal exemplar of erudition. O cunning of theancient serpent! O furor of the envious lion, circling andseeking someone to devour!34 This is the craftiness of theravening wolf! O false hypocrisy of the enemy, you whoappear outwardly in sheep’s clothing, inwardly a raveningwolf! You cannot deny this to me, you cannot conceal it; Ihave tested you, I have discovered you, and I have seen youin the aforesaid book, most ingeniously contained! For I,John, have proven in actual fact, through myself andthrough many other witnesses, that this book, the ArsNotoria, is without doubt a fountainhead of malice, originof deviation, teacher of error, bag of tricks, river of iniquity,false advocate of grace; in it peace is bound to hatred, faithto falsehood, hope to fear, and madness is mixed withreason. This Art is a pleasant tempest, a brightly lit night, atwilit day, a live death, a foolish reason, and a deviantprudence; it is evanescent prosperity, sick pleasure, unguentoutwardly sweet but fatally poisonous within. It is a sadparadise, which first pleases, second wounds, third kills. Itis outwardly a mild lamb but inwardly a ravening wolf; ahoney of bitterness and a sweetness of absinthe; a trueargument but a false solution. First it lays out its assump-tion, which is sweet and true; second, it makes its declara-tion, which is bitter and false; third, it brings all to a con-clusion in an evil end. It deceives everyone using it andleads to the darkness of perdition. By it are all evils com-pounded, and more, because without it nothing can beaccomplished in necromancy; in fact inasmuch as it is themore subtle [art], it is the more deceptive." - Liber Visionum of John of Morigny speaking of the Ars Notoria
Thank you!
Let loose of the material world, it'll hold you back.
From?
"I find it illuminating." HA HA. Dr. Sledge likes to slip some esoteric humor into his shows.
Lol how can he read all this as an Academic and not see the truth in many of these magic occult systems? Must be just saying that. I still love his channel
The “truth”?