Ep 013 - VLE, Reflux, Plates, Packing, and Potential Output
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- Опубліковано 29 лип 2024
- Hello all,
In this video I attempt to describe vapour liquid equilibrium, reflux (passive and active), as well as the functions of plates, packing materials, and how to calculate potential output. Enjoy.
And have a great week!
Abs VLE Chart: mega.nz/file/ictHxDhD#SE35eXh...
Rounded VLE Chart: mega.nz/file/bV0lBLjS#nsztE5Q...
It seems the website I purchased the CSST from, doesn't sell it anymore, it was houzz.com. So you'll need to track down another source if you want to use CSST as a reflux condenser. You want one that is bare stainless steel on the outside, lots of them come coated.
I am a professional distiller.I just want to congratulate you.
This is one of the best videos on this subject I've found. Might just be a little advanced for the beginner, but even then it points to the direction of learning for that beginner. I love the videos from the guys that do it from experience, touch and feel, in the end it's maths, chemistry and physics, if you want the answer.
Auch ich bin ein professioneller Obst-Destillateur. Ich möchte Ihnen gratulieren.
It takes me about 1 hour and a half, 3 screens, and a lot of Googling to understand your videos, but they're so interesting!!!! I've wanted to understand the science behind fermenting and distilling!!! I really appreciate it! Thanks
That's how I usually research things, so many open tabs, spread across multiple monitors. I'm glad you enjoy the content.
I looked on a ton of forums then remembered I subscribed to you months ago .. surely you could answer my question BOOM you had a whole video on it :) Thanks for taking the time to explain the science :)
Based on your where copper matters vid, i now throw copper mesh in my boiler too
Just subscribed. Most concise and clear information on this subject I've ever seen. Thanks for uploading👌
Hard to understand why I’m the first comment on such amazing content. Keep it coming bro!
So much to watch and learn here. Thanks for approaching this with a bit of rigor. Loving your channel.
Best explanations I have seen so far...! Thanks for all your videos...I subscribed after watching 5 mins of the first one I came across.
This was fantastic. First video of yours I've watched, but I'll be checking out the rest when I have time. The content was good and you explained things very well. Many of the theoretical elements you covered were a real blessing for some planning I've been struggling with. Thanks!
Today I learned that I'm over compensating. Thank you!
Awesome job!! Looking forward to more of these, and a day when home distilling is something any Canadian can enjoy legally👍
Amen! I think we need to get together and pressure government to legalized!
Congrats on 100 subscribers!
Wow, thanks for that! Best video I have ever seen on this topic. Subscribed
Looking like I'm late to the class. Great video. Answers alot of questions that I have been asking. Thanks for sharing. = )
This is really fantastic. Love the content! Thank you!
Much appreciated!
Your channel just popped up on my radar. +1 Subbed.
The old school computing coding nerd in me kicked in again. I followed a lot of Rad's formulas on HD forums as well as the wiki distilling formulas.
From one nerd to another, Thank you. Intel is always key to learning. Going to share your channel and give shout outs.
Cheers Buddy!
This was a great explanation! Great work
Wow! This is really great content. Thanks especially for the links!
Mate, I have to thank you so much for getting into the scientific details of distilling ratios and techniques. Cheers!
Where do you buy your equipment?
Subbed.
Excellent-! this guy is top of his game!~
Brilliant!! Thank you very much for the video.
great stuff lots of info
you explained it much clearer than George.
We gotta get you more subscribers man Thanks for the content
Dood, subscribed! More of this!
This is superb information really condensed. I will refer back to this in the future no doubt.
I never knew that SPP was that efficient at creating theoretical plates. If you can get that many plates in a small column size, then I have to wonder why plates are still so widely used and considered the gold standard. Sure, SPP isn't cheap, but it's going to be cheaper than the same amount of actual plates I'm sure.
Aside from plates looking sick, and potentially giving a better visual on the reflux status - are there any other hidden downsides to SPP compared to plates that I'm missing?
Weigh your copper mesh for consistency
I feel like that line in the movie Forrest Gump, when Forrest speaks to Jeannie and says ...I am not a smart man.
Hi Adam, very useful the VLE charts. I am trying to expand the information on the Abs VLE chart to add a column with the boiling point temperature that corresponds to the vapour %Abv. So that by measuring the temperature at the top of the column, I will know the vapour % abv and (from the chart you provided) the liquid %abv in the boiler. Any direction you can point me to?
I know that atmospheric pressure affects these numbers but at least I can have a good approximation.
Thanks for all the work you do to share the background science of distillation and regards from Greece
Azeotrope 97.02% by volume? I have it as 96.51% at sea level by vol and 95.6% by mass (same by mass as you give). I live at 210 feet above sea level and 96.5 is about what I have observed from my column. Are you referring to it at your elevation rather than sea level?
Hi very interesting thank you. Can I download your chart on ABV changes?
How high does an empty column needs to be, to make the same separation as one bubble plate?
Wow! I've been watching distilling videos for awhile now and I have a new favorite!
Where do you buy your copper spp?
Keep up the great work! Thanks for what you do!!!
I've bought it from a bunch of different places. eBay was the first place I bought it from. I also tried AlcoFermbrew, and Still4you. It isn't easy to find in North America though. Not sure why.
with a 4 inch coloum what depth of SPP would be equivilant of 1 plate ? I want to add a packed coloum on top of my 4inch 6 bubble plate still. I have a 4 inch glass coloum that is 300mm in lenght to play with. - Thanks
Hi Adam, in case of a fruit brandy (for example Apple brandy), instead of running twice the mash in a pot still (stripping + spirit run), can we run it once by using a few plates? And how many plates would you suggest in order to keep enough flavor in a single run? Are there any disadvantages in a sigle run with plates instead of stripping+spirit run?
Hey Canuck how are you? I must to say nice rig and toys in there. I need more explanation on SPP. Here is my sepcs;
specific weight - 880 g/dm3
dimensions - 4,4 x 5,5 x 0,24 mm
specific surface (p/v) - 1900 dm2/dm3
free volume - 0,89
maximumheat load - 115 W/cm2
HETP - 1,6 mm
How do I determine the HETP on a 2 inch column for 100 cm?
I am very interested in Riku's ARC column, called, "Thor's Hammer," based on two inch copper pipe, and wonder if you've either read his most current treatise or have read any reviews and could point me to the forum? (I know version 1, the first book's plan, produced a neutral at azeo with just a hint of burnt sugar from a turbo yeast sugar wash, but was very slow using one and a half inch pipe -- like twelve hours for five gallons).
I'm also curious about hypothetical throughput between three inch vs four inch SS column. My reading had suggested for four inch pipe the plate height would be five to six inches, and that azeo would be eleven to twelve plates (all assuming dime size lava), equaling seven feet (more for the CCVM condenser pipe and tee), which would mean splitting the column in half (and how do you even do that so that the condensate can go back into the boiler?).
And, finally, how to deal with floured corn? Reading that fermenting on the grain, when it's mostly corn, and distilling on the grain avoids the hassles of pressing out the flour then begs the question: if not steam injection, how would it look to have a boiler underneath a dual purpose fermentation vessel and distillation thumper of say fifteen to twenty-five gallons with a copper coil and agitator inside it, where the boiler steam just goes through and exits to vent outdoors? This seems like it would be dead simple, but isn't discussed on Homedistillers -- though I've seen photos of a big old pot sitting on top of a keg boiler, I can't remember where). Have you seen or know anyone who's played with something like this scaled down to this hobbyist size/level??
Thank you for the detailed content, and I hope your viewership catches on (I can't understand -- Ohhh! ur not monetizing perhaps, so no one gets the word? Anyway, you deserve much better -- my thoughts and hopes go out to you!
Sorry, I don't really know much about that still design beyond what popped up on a few Homedistiller posts. It seems to have died off, the 3 most popular designs these days seem to be a regular CCVM, Bokabob, and then a regular CM style with a dephlegmator.
For the 3" vs 4" column, the diameter of the column dictates how fast you can run. Height issues, for getting higher purity, can be dealt with in 2 ways, you can replace some of the plates with packing (which is what I do), or you could run 2 columns on top of your kettle. The first column would be open to the kettle, the second column would just sit there on top, the kettle just acting as a support. The top of the first column would then be piped to the bottom of the second column. So you could have your 12 plates, but each column is only 6 plates tall. Throw in some extra piping and you could have 3 plates on one side, and 8-9 on the other. Then pipe them both to the condenser, with a valve, so you could just switch back and forth between pot still vs reflux still. You may have an issue with pooling at the bottom of the 2nd column, but since it's sitting directly on top of the kettle, the heat from the kettle should cause it to vaporize.
The biggest issue with flour, of any kind, is that it can form a sludge on the bottom of the fermenter/still. So what you need to do is add multiple enzymes, alpha-amylase, gluco-amylase, beta-glucanase, and I would also throw in some digestive enzymes when the other enzymes are finished. Combined, they will break down all the flour so that most of it will be gone, do a pre-ferment boil, then ferment. Let it settle, maybe use gelatin to help clarify, then rack over to the still.
The only place I've seen people messing with steam is on reddit.com/r/firewater, they have a steam kettle setup just with water in it, and then pipe that directly into the still kettle. Heat the steam kettle, steam is generated and moves over into the still kettle where it bubbles through the wash and heats the wash up more gently than with direct heating. Letting them do things like distill on grain, or have lots of starches/proteins in the wash and not scorch them.
I also hope that viewership increases. I can't monetize, or get my own channel name url, until I hit 100 subscribers.
Great answers, only one more subscriber needed 👍🏻
What do you consider to be the lower limit of recoverable alcohol from a mash? The 'reverse azeotrope' if you will
That's hard to say, it depends on the still design, and how fast you run/how much heat energy, you put into the wash. The faster you go, the higher the potential losses as you force more ethanol to evaporate early, and put it into the heads fraction.
That said, I think with any wash, you should be able to get at minimum 70% of the alcohol present in the original wash after fermentation. If you are getting less than that, you really need to take a look at your process and make significant changes.
That's some serious columns. Are you a hardcore enthusiast, or is this a profession?
How important🤔 is it to actually have copper in your system is there any evidence that it is required by the way very good videos I love your stuff
I do have a video on it, someone did a study, and I sort of went over it. It's not absolutely required, but if you are going to be distilling a grain, or a fruit, it can remove some of the sulfury/meaty flavours that sometimes appear. I would always have at least some copper, even if that means dumping some copper scraps into the boiler.
How do you calculate the HETP for specific column packing materials?
Hey, sorry it took so long to get back to you. Realistically speaking, you can't just up and calculate it. Technically you might be able to, but that kind of math is beyond. This is one of those things that realistically needs empirical study of specific packing in a specific column, and then you derive the math for that specific column with that packing.
So for example, with my still, using only one of the short pieces of glass column, and working in all masses, I could put in x kg of copper SPP, measure the height of that packing. Put a known ABW concentration of wash into the still, and run it. Depending on the output ABW, I could then calculate how many plates that height of copper SPP it is simulating. I could then use that HETP to make an assumption about copper SPP in more pieces similar to that original column piece. But if I switched to a SS or copper column piece, it wouldn't be a valid HETP, I'd have to do it again.
tl;dr You have to do real world testing to figure out the HETP for that specific packing in that specific column design. Then you can take those HETP values and use them to figure out different column heights and possibly diameters with that same packing material, but it won't work for different column materials/designs or packing materials.
I know those vapor points would be effected but in what what are they effected by altitude or other means to raise or lower the pressure of the pot?
The temperatures required would drop with an increase in altitude (decrease in pressure). In Japan, some Shochu distilleries actually use special stills made to be run under vacuum.
Adam, does temperature functions as a variable in the VLE equation, playing a factor as "third variable"?
For example, a 53% spirit, in the still, will be in an equilibrium with 81% vapor. Is this only true when the medium is at 180F " while distilling:?
In other words, if I store 50% whiskey in a homebrewing keg, filled 2/3 the way, will the vapor in the top space be at 81% under normal garage temperature? The keg is made from stainless steel, but the gaskets are not rated for high spirit content; will this be a problem.
Temperature does play a role, it does 2 things, it will increase the rate at which vapour is produced, and it will allow more vapour to be present in the headspace above the liquid. However, in an open environment like a still, that extra vapour is what causes the upward motion of the vapour, instead of a noticeable increase in pressure. In a closed environment, like in the keg, it will increase the pressure instead.
Under normal temperatures, the vapour in the headspace of the keg will probably be around 81%. I don't think it will be a problem unless you leave it in there for multiple years. If you can change the gaskets, I would, but if not, I wouldn't fret about it, just open and check on them every few months.
Will you be doing any distilling runs thanks for the info
I haven't yet decided if I will ever do any spirit distilling runs on video or not. Given the legality of it.
@@StillBehindTheBench i totally understand love the content
wow a years worth of still in compressed into one vid lol
Are you still doing your vlog
Yes, I hope to put out a new video this week or early next week.
@@StillBehindTheBench i am looking for info about how, how distilling. What temperature do you start with, can you distilling without making cuts. Iike trying to get all hearts
Wow 93%, I get that from my regular old T500 still at a fraction of the cost of a bubble plate setup.
Why would I spend another grand or more on a bubble plate column to achieve the same end result?