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Burn-In, Cables, DAC/AMP, Technical Performance & More
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- Опубліковано 29 лис 2022
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Leave your own thoughts and opinions here as well. Would love to hear your thoughts!
I don't think I can provide much, I'm not well versed and deep into the hobby yet
Despite having been in the hobby since January and February of this year, I've yet to even grasp technicalities by a small amount. I've been basing alot of my choices based on tuning, as that's the most cut and dry out off everything, but everything else is quite out of reach for me. Probably why I've yet to find any real difference in soundstaging, resolution or imaging between any IEM I have ever used. Probably explains why I don't have any issues with the Etymotic soundstaging either lol. But honestly, alot of song sound very 2 sided for me, as in its just left of right, or it just sounds "normal". I don't ever do critical listening, and my favourite genre being EDM doesn't really help either, probably has actual proper imaging, but due to how busy the track is, it's not easy to tell
@@foxgaming76yt24 Thanks for your input man! Any input is help for the community. And yes I agree with tuning being the most concrete thing. Tech is more up in the air and every reviewer has their own criteria including myself, so it's hard to compare opinions like you can do easier with tuning.
@@Gizaudio I hope I can improve my understanding and ability to perceive technicalities, would really help me appreciate the difference between IEM's and more mainstream wired sets. Also, glad that my opinion and experience was still a useful one despite stating plain and bland knowledge. I'm gonna have to stay quite awhile in the hobby before I can truly give proper opinions though. In the meantime, I'll dabble in the Sub 100 range, and just enjoy music and help those new to the hobby to the best of my abilities. Oh, and I have some unsolicited questions, so I apologise beforehand, but what exactly is "control"? As in, loose and tight bass for example. Is it just distortion? And what exactly are telling signs between something being uncontrolled and controlled?
I always wanted to ask you that: In your opinion, the Thieaudio Oracle is an upgrade of the SeeaudioYume?
Burn in is one of the things that baffles me the most because you get very smart people saying their headphones changed after burn in, when in reality, their perspective on the FR changed as they listened to them. If audio stuff changed significantly enough to change the sound with only a fraction of its lifetime spent, then you've got a problem with the construction of a product.
In that note, maybe there are some placebo effects, but there are changes rite? Hahaha. I like gizaudio for your strive to be objective. It is a commendable effort in this area of subjective taste ❤
In my experience burn in sometimes dramatically changes the sound. It can't be sound accustomed because I connected the new headphones to the amplifier and left them connected to the radio for a few days. That was the case with Sennheiser headphones, maybe it's different with IEM.
@@Sebastian_rts there are a lot of factors that can go into that beyond the driver physically changing. Mood, what other IEMs you've been listening to, what you're listening to, etc
Great video. I really appreciate that you rank the IEMs in technically aspects and try to keep objective. As someone who has a different taste your ranking list is still very helpful. It's great that you're so honest. You deserve a lot more subscriber. Keep it up!
Thank you so much!
It's all subjective and shouldn't be taken serious. He said he doesn't even know what technicality really is. IEMs should be ranked by only one category wich is called tonality and that is correlated to Frequency response. You can't have good "tech" if you don't have a good frequency response. So with that been said never trust 100% "IEMs ranking" made by Reviewers cuz It's all subjective.
@@MuriloUrubudosCortes You could have two IEM's that graph the same and I'm sure one could sound more technical than the other, based on better quality parts. There are some very cheap IEM's that graph well but don't have the same technical performance as some that have higher quality components. But it is true that you can have good quality components and tune badly though.
@@scotty_teee4226 you just don't know how to read a frequency response graph.
@Murilo Gomes so you think that I $35 IEM can compete with a much more expensive IEM that has a very similar or the same tuning and have no difference in technicalities? I'm not sure I agree with that
DAC and AMPs can objectively change the sound but not for the reason most people talk about.
Some amps have obscenely high output impedances and some headphones and IEMs have an impedance that is not linear across their frequency range, meaning that changing sources can change the frequency response in significant ways.
There is a site that lets you see the impedance graph of some headphones and IEMs to see if they will vary by source or not, I think it's called reference audio analyzer
Excellent and informative video, thanks for the sincerity and honesty! You sorted out the facts, maybe some of the reviewers are victims of marketing or vile people who want to make money on cables, DAC&Amplifiers, etc. Unfortunately, we can often find such people on the Internet.
A topic has been raised here that I've never given much thought to but it's opened up a rabbit hole of thought. The question: Are vertical locations of instruments in a recording discernible from each other (vertical imaging)?
As for accurate determination of height of performers in a physical space in relation to each other, I'll admit I've never really tested with a suitable recording. Most recordings use a mic/mics placed close to the individual performers and are panned throughout the stereo field, so they aren't representing the performer's physical position on a stage/in a physical space. As for the perception of different instruments/sounds being at different heights somewhat arbitrarily, I absolutely experience this. In fact it's more common for me to perceive vertical differences than it is for me to perceive forward depth with headphones/IEMs. For example, quite often panning effects will sound as if they pass over the top of my head rather than in front of me.
In the real world sound cues such as delays, reflections and occlusion help us determine position. My best guess is that due to different people having subtly different ear anatomy and sensitivity to different frequencies and because listening through headphones/IEMs to sounds recorded from multiple positions is a very unnatural way for us to perceive sound, it's likely that our brains are interpreting this unnatural soundscape differently in the absence of the cues we would normally use to determine position.
Tim nice video as always!
Btw, it's nearing the end of 2022, is it a good time to make a video about best iem so far? Like some kind of update of the existing IEM, best budget iem, bang for the buck etc etc, but anyway, keep making videos Tim!!
Looks like an interesting video, I'll definitely watch the whole thing
Great show!
Thank you ☕️
Thank you!
Nice video to clear ppl doubt~waiting for 2nd ep~
While not with a song specifically, I have experienced vertical imaging with my Moondrop Variations before when playing video games. I was cautious when I first noticed it about claiming it was genuinely vertical imaging, as I thought it was possible my brain was simply tricking me due to having a visual of where the sound was coming from. But after some testing on my part, I could say with good confidence that changing the vertical position of any given sound in the game was indeed changing the sound coming out of my earphones, albeit subtly. So I do think vertical imaging with IEMs is real.
Thanks for saying it: speaking of soundstage in IEMs is like wanting open back headphones so sound like an IMAX 7.1 theatre. It’s a psychoacoustic effect provided by the open back nature of big drivers. True, tuning can provide excellent imaging and separation, as IEMs tend to outperform headphones in many cases in these departments. And it has to do with the recording as well. I’ve heard claustrophobic recordings on open back Sennheisers that sound closer in soundstage than airy recordings on IEMs. Also, I do feel burn in has a certain effect but it is mostly psychoacoustic and only in some minor way as it does shear off manufacturing left overs and allows for the driver to settle. But it is neither a day or night difference nor do you have to burn in for 150 hours. I run my new acquisitions overnight and then proceed to get used to the sound signature. Thanks Timmy!
great video man! me also think of that, as long as my cable isn't shit enough in build quality and microphonic, im ok with that
Absolutely, focus on finding the perfect IEM first is the best way and other accessories can come later.
I like seeing the flat bass target especially if the person uses compensates curves as its easier to see the real bass level.
Exact same reason I prefer ief comparison, it shows clearly how the bass shelf is rising and from where
Great video - I need to do a video on soundstage, because the current common view on it, particularly with iems is driving me nuts. Maybe I’m the one who’s nuts, but I’m going to share my thoughts on it to find out :P
As far as details go I feel like very high frequencies handle the air, but that very low frequencies handle ambient resonances. For realism with your detail and natural timbre I really feel like you have to have the extremes of both (15k) being done well.
The only IEM for me that perceived stage outside my head is the GS Audio SE12. Not only wide but 6' forward from that spot so not only incredible width but depth and a extraordinarysense of height. In a song from Hania Rani you can hear the mic on the piano keys at waist level but also tell the 🎻 player is to her left standing up and the person on right is sitting down.
As for burn in you need to go to a car audio shop ask the staff about it or any professional audio engineer. The mechanical aspect of a dynamic driver lossens up and does indeed change the sound signature. Over time the benefits then become detrimental as the suspension and former get too loose and sound quality is affected and driver then needs to be replaced.
Hi! I recently bought Hiby FC4 and Letshouer S12 (3.5mm termination). Does it worth it to buy a cable with 4.4mm termination? Thank you
Which will you suggest blon bl 03 or oppo enco m31 neckband or realme buds wireless 2 neckband?
U12t check out never give up on your dreams, and victory by two steps form hell. Very spacious sounding. I think it’s because of the high mid scoop. Instruments sound taller taller than all iems I tried. Ier-Z1r is wider but lacks height. Haven’t heard the anole vx though
Hey Tim, I wanna hear ur review on Kinera Hodur man.. at first glance I liked the IEM but was hesitant to buy it cus ur first impression on them wasn't that good.
Please do an in depth review of them 😆
Thanks!!
How do drivers change or not change the sound (barring exact same tuning)?
Soo good Video. It helps a lot as an item nerd who entered the game. It to long recently
Once you find iems you like would the dac actually make an improvement ?
Nice vid :)
but my halve aswerded question is with the dac´s: so when you head with your normal appledongle and some IEM (lets take the good old B2 Dusk f.e.)
there should be enough power or not? the frequency range that apple provide is for normal listerners enough with 24 Bit/48 kHz.
and almost any IEM doesn´t need that much power like the big over ear hp´s. Or am i wrong
In regards to power, the apple dongle is perfectly fine for all IEMs I've come across. TBH, I myself use a cheap $7 amazon USB-C dongle to listen to music from my phone. No IEMs has ever needed more than that.
So I experienced myself changing cable change the sound but when I have two cables with different material from the same brand it sounds exactly the same. Not even a placebo when I searched for it. My theory is that cable affect fitting. Maybe the other cable have a better fit hence why the "better bass" and "richer mids" things come out.
Either im blind or something, but what's the outro music called? Sound jammy, me likey. Also nice video and thanks for these tips and info. Kinda a noob to this(despite starting with ccz and fiio btr7) so far with them is a meh, but aye with your video i can explore more. So i sub to see whatcha got and make my music go Super Saiyan 2!
Good drivers cam give treble resolutions and in the graph shows a low treble . Because it separates instruments by resolution. The cable can change the sound. Try to graph an iem and then change the cable and graph them again. Some cables can give you a change of 3 dB.and the burning works in some iem, reason is the Coil that hold the driver. In home speakers the rubber that hold the driver when is new is rigid. So after burning ,it gets more flexible and air flows better.
More please! 😊
Hi,
in regard of your previous video I can see that you love vocals. I do aswell. But I'm mostly interested in very good male vocals and not boosted bass. Like as low bass as possible. I have the er2se, I really like it but always fun to see if there is something even better for male vocals. I was thinking like under 250 dollar. Maybe not the right video to ask this question, but this is your latest video so I wrote it here instead.
Would be really happy for your thoughts on this!
Thanks in advance!
Edit: Forget to say, also something releiving, that you can hear every crack inte the vocals etc.
The advantage of a cardioid speaker is that there is less bass / sound going towards the sides and back of the speaker, reducing the amount of reflections you would get from the walls resulting in a cleaner sound in the room . In pro audio they often carioid subwoofer arrays to not swamp the stage artists in bass as part of the rear wave is cancelled out.
fwiw I can also tell you that loudsspeaker drivers can need some minutes of burn in so the soft parts in the speaker motors can loosen up and end up at their designed specs. They only need this once when they are new, I could imagine a iem driver could also take a short while to loosen up a bit.
Minimum phase means the phase can be determined from the frequency response.
thank you
I kinda disagree with 2.
Sound "outside your head" is a result of interactions of the sound with your body, ear and ear cannals, which alters the resulting frequency response, also possibly adding reverb and other effects (group delay?). Subtle sound differences and delay between each ear also play an important role (which is what crossfeed filters emulate).
If the sound output can somehow mimic all of these effects, the IEM will sound like it's outside your head. Which is how stuff like Dolby Atmos and similar works, albeit imperfectly.
TL;DR: it's not impossible, but it requires more than just tuning the IEM and is really hard to do perfectly.
cable change the sound a lot even the technicalities of the iem. eartips slightly change the sound.
Cable Comfort does make a difference bc you don't have pain while listening. I got fatfreq studio ref pros the cable ripped my ear to bits after getting a soft pro cable it made a difference to comfort but no difference to sound quality.
A song with good "height" is the cover of 'I was made for loving you' by Maria Mena. Of the IEMs I own, the BGVP Scale Pro is the only one on which I perceive height.
I only really get the sense of vertical imaging once with the vocal located higher than the other instruments with Elysian Acoustic X and A&K Sp2000T, listening to Marie by Aimer (Tidal)
Can you please review the new Kiwi Ears Cadenza? And compare it to the 7hz Zero I think it would make a really nice video since there isn't much reviews about this new IEM
The vertical thing is real! You should try to listen to the intro of After Rain by Aimer, you could definitely tell that the sound from the electric guitar comes from the top.
To those who can hear the vertical placement of instruments, what happens if the iem is worn upside down?
In your question regarding vertical imaging, I usually can't tell myself, but with the track "闇祭" by Kikuo on my T3+, it really gives the feeling like some sound is playing over my head and circling around me. If you listen to it I _think_ you'll know what I mean.
LOL it's such a fun song.... I get what you mean.
@@Gizaudio track name in english pls..
man it feel so weird..., it like the song curve on my head and my brain keep trying to track where it go to a point it make me a bit dizzy
That song is interesting, i can feel some sound moving around my head clockwise 😗
yep i had same experience like that but in track like the weeknd - take my breath (some the weeknd tracks after album beauty & the madness, had imaging vertical), max cooper - resynthesis (3D binaural version), swedish house mafia - paradise again, kensuke ushio - cresc, thomas lucas - universe expansion
Your ranking is the best amongst I have seen, better than Chronicle's.
So Timmy, have you found the answer for the first question? The technical performance from graphs, hehe. Nice video!
Hey timmy, a question, are you planning to make an eq tierlist , like you started In your previous tier list.
Your eq for 7hz zero was better for me as I prefered more over the default. Thanks
the thing is eq can get very complicated when you introduce parametrics. my eq on my s12 makes it sound leaps and bounds better than the base tuning but is not achievable on a basic 10 band graphic eq, and if i recall the ranking list did not have very precise eq adjustments. i whole heartedly believe you can make any B to B+ iem sound just as good as an A+ iem given precise adjustments, but that will take a lot of time to figure out the best for each and every iem. the quickest way would be to use auto eq on squig to auto generate a theoretically perfect frequency response, but from my experience, i dislike how harmen sounds on the s12, hence a ridiculous amount of subjectivity and flexibility making it difficult to rank all iems with a subjectively perfect eq. the best way is to explore eq urself.
@@eludee119 same thoughts honestly, as also the eartips, they also effect the sound,
I use poweramp on android as wavelet is unsupported on version 8.
I quite like balanced tune.
If you can't have the out of head experience, as well as can't sense the position of some instrument, how would you know whether the iem has wide soundstage or not?
If the IEM is tuned in a way that displays more air, you'll have the airy and wide soundstage feeling. For imaging it's more so related to different emphasis in the tuning. For example a mid focus IEMs will likely image the vocals more forwardly than bass instruments (this is a very simple example just for explanation sakes, there's more to it)
concise. 👍
can you tell us how to properly wear an iem? because i feel like ive been wearing my iems wrong
As long as you can get a perfect seal, you're good
Question.. I have 3 sets of IEM's and they are all under $50. TaX Zero, Wan'er and 7Hz Zero. I use these with my phone and tablets. Is there any reason to buy a DAC /Amp?
No
So, an amp is effectively pointless for IEMs. They just don’t draw enough power to gain any significant benefit from an amp.
A DAC, on the other hand MAY be worthwhile, but only if you are playing music from sufficiently high quality source AND you are physically capable of hearing the difference. The line of diminishing returns rises very sharply beyond the humble Apple dongle level, regardless of the source quality, however. Spending even $30-$50 for an entry level DAC/amp isn’t worthwhile with a $20 set of IEMs. You’ll get more far improvement spending that money on a better IEM.
Will you ever upload in 4k or 2k, it will give you better bit rate? Would love to experience your videos in high resolution.
I film in 1080p. So maybe when I have a better camera lol
2:33 which makes perfect sense because stereo mixes only have horizontal panning options. Any mix engineer, even beginner ones, know this. There is only hard left, hard right, and everything in between (horizontally). Any sense of vertical placement is due to psychoacoustics. Of course, now there is spatial audio, which makes vertical positioning an available option.
Enjoy your work/videos... As to cables, I agree with you, in general, but... Balanced cables are noticeably better than single-ended cables, as long as they are run through a balanced source... plus, it isn't cost prohibitive to run a balanced set-up.
Are you into the car scene at all? Thoughts on JDM cars since you’re in Japan, if so?
Burn-in does matter in some cases for iems/headphones/speakers. Some of my iems and speakers have smoother treble and more textured bass. Sound quality does improve if the little changes are to your liking.
In my experience, changing cable do have noticeable sound. I have olina SE, tips finalaudio E and cable SCC OFC made in Taiwan. At first, I don't have any expectation about the cable, because i buy for mic function. But this cable can reduce high treble, ex. Polyphia ABC, meinl clay GOAT more easy to listen in my ears and bass has little oomph. The downside is, details become less because changes in low frequency, but as time goes, i've used to with current level details. Does anyone has similar experience?
Forgot to mention, in some songs, treble sounds not natural, I wonder if the cables reduce the quality overall but it works wonder in my ear
Please review OH5 Asgard !! Love your videos mate
Found my favourite iem which is the unique melody mest mk2.
And yes, definitely any other accessories or dap/dac/amp comes after that, provided that it can be driven with the existing set-up and for most of the iem yes anything really can drive them. After that like cables, daps are just seasoning, refining your listening experience.
I find all the daps below certain price point, around 1200$? all sounds the same and afterwards the dap game kicks in. Personally I like the ibasso dx320 the most since it is giving me more revealing details and smoother, cleaner sound in busier tracks.
For cables, some really does change the tuning by a lot perhaps more than 5db, but just like what you said, a change is not necessarily an improvement and spending over thousands of dollars just for that? And that can be done using EQ? Hell na.
DAC has more effect on sound especially if you are not getting enough juice without it, compared to expecting cable to improve listening quality.
The amount of juice has to do with the amplification, not the DAC
Yo timmy, mind if I ask if you are to do a review for the oracle mk2?
No, I will not unfortunately. Because the MK1 is far better.
@Gizaudio cool thank you for letting me know
Mind if I get to know why/how so?
The Final A4000 will display sound in a manner that will make you feel like it's coming from outside your head. But in return it kinda lacks the ability to play sound right between your eyes
Hehe yeah it’s a very unique iem. It’s worth having in your collection as something different
kz zas has wildly noticable burn in, and very measurable too so you know its not placebo.
I hear significant difference between in sources like r2r and delta sigma dacs or class a amp and other amps. Then again those don't measure the same. I think differences are there but between similar products it doesn't matter much. About the burn-in I'm kind of in the similar camp with you but I don't deny its existence. It's just I don't care. Something should sound good out of the box, if not it's not my problem, it is the products problem.
"Outside your head" sound might not be possible for IEMs, but in my experience, the Sony MDR EX800ST/EX1000 come pretty dang close!
Unfortunately have not tried those...
@@Gizaudio I got mine used on ebay. There are quite a few pairs being sold for decent prices from Japan. The EX800ST will run you about $150. The tuning is unusual, but imo it sounds better than it graphs, and it's a very good set for the price if you don't mind that.
I agree. The ex1000 def has an outside your head sound
I like your answer on the question about cables. It shows you have critical thinking skills which are so rarely seen. This is why I will continue to watch your videos even though our music tastes differ. :)
Waiting for kiwi Cadzena review
a good studio moniter ..? i have salnotes zero and akg n400 and perfer akg n400 more
what be a equavalent of zero or lets say akg n400 of studio moniter
Dirt Cheap & Great sounding
@@Sharur1 i know about that one and already ordered but i want cheap speaker
@@Sharur1 the god came down from heaven
Personally I hear the high hats above the lead singer in Seals & Crofts - Summer Breeze on the Dunu SA6 Ultra
I’m close to the same opinion on most stuff
Mythbusters series will be nice.
Someday lol
For me i think burnin its only working in amplifier with vacuum tubes not dacs or headphones
one true answer y'all looking for at 8:53 you're welcome
Timmy is slowly understanding that what matters the most is frequency response... Good boy 🤓
why do many IEM builders write in the instructions to burn-in if this is useless?
because if you buy into the burn-in thing, you might not regret purchasing something that you instantly disliked out of the box, and you will delay returning them until it's too late. then you'll try convincing yourself it became better with burn-in (that's your brain on placebo).
@@alteredstates2968
seems like a reasonably sensible explanation
For cables, just buy any nicehck cables that looks cool
9:11 LMAO 🤣
Next time, can you pause longer on the written questions? I have paused to read every single written question lol
lol! maybe...
Burn in is Gimmick 🤗
I don't know but how about you try listen to john cage - third construction
wait till you hear brise audio cables
goona agree on the cable question, hundreds and thousands for a cable? LOL
Come on man, come back to the fragrance community. You are missed!!!
If your cable makes a difference to your sound, your cable and/or your ears are broken. Or, you may be an alien. Go figure!
In my opinion, burn-in is for DD drivers only and even not for all. It is akin to shoes break-in. Florsheim require break-in, Mephisto do not. It is a process of removing initial rigidity and usually beneficial. Continuation of that process is generally detrimental over the long time and is called wear and tear. That process applies to all mechanical things whether we want it or not. It is more noticeable with some objects and less so with others. So BAs undergo it as well, it's just imperceptible with BAs.
No such thing as burn in
I like my Qkz x Hbb iem cheap and sound better than £500 iems lol
Instead a part 2 it should be mk 2 lol 😂
yes lol
i was called out yesterday by some random, telling me DAC doesn't matter, on my 300 ohm Sennheiser. Dude is so obsessed with "audiophile" sd card.
If you've never heard an outside your head experience go to the virtual barber shop and get a virtual haircut.
I've watched that video! It's very trippy and awesome. But no that's still from inside your head if we're talk about IEMs. Because like I said, the sound is being played directly into your ears unlike speakers or some headphones.
@@Gizaudio Experience
@@Gizaudio on IEMs I hear everything from outside my head. It's because they use DSP.
I am sorry but I have had two sets of IEM's that sounded bad (VERY BAD) until I let them play for a few hours. My KZ ZS10 PRO, started so bad I could not understand why people liked it, now it is not bad at all. And the Final 5000 was the worst IEM I have ever heard, It did work itself out a little, but I still hated it and sent it back.
Timmy I not gonna say you are correct or wrong about burn-in but will say this, burn in changes the sound, it might Improve the sound or it might make it worst. To me my tri i3 Pro did change after a few weeks of burn in, more and more iem companies are recommending burn-in. Why don't you buy two new decent items, and do a test? Burn one in for about 400 hours and the other one brand new , if u haven't done this then really you can't say it does nothing
This is very frustrating
I found a very different results from burn in. I hear clear differences after 48hrs of continuous playing. Remember we all of us have different skills, some people have better visual, or spacial, or hearing skills. I found changes in cables, burnin, etc. But no matter how I love phography I simply sucks as photographer. I think you have not the better hearing skills. Isuspected that scince a while. Greetings
Normal people listen to music using their equipment, "audiophile" use music to listen to their equipment.
Too much snake oil salesman in audio hobby world.
Buy moondrop quarks DSP and end all competition forever!
I can sense that you're big sharur fan
next time, please say the questions out loud instead of just displaying them... im mostly listening to your vids and not really looking at the screen so its not possible for me to read the questions....
U lost me at ''burn in'' i know you don't care about one guy, but don't fool your viewers when burn in it's obviously a reality, i could hear it with my own ears with a pair of planars, so instead of putting big thumbnails with titles like ''KING'' ''BEST'' and so on to create the ''hype'' effect focus on being a better listener cuz u might get people confused and that costs money.
"i could hear it, therefore it's true" that's an hilarious argument if i ever seen one
@@alteredstates2968 believe what u want, i saw it so im speaking it, im not talking from my own "beliefs" i speak from experience
@timebandit1338
Then show us your data. What scientific method did you use? Where is the result?
Just show your experiment results to us and publish them. Let more people know.
Don't just say I hear the difference.
Nobody cares that you hear the difference.
Show everyone else where the difference is with your proof.