How To Fix a 1992 Ramirez Classical Guitar with High Action
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- Опубліковано 6 бер 2023
- Luthier and Instructor, Robert O'Brien, shows how to fix a Ramirez classical guitar with high action but not enough exposed saddle to fix the issue.
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Lovely playing, Robert!!
Wow not just a good luthier, you play beautifully too...😊
Thanks for posting. Have a ‘78 1A Blue Label, non AM model. High action as usual, didn’t want to shave the saddle or plane the fretboard. To keep the guitar stock, opted for lower tension strings. Experimented with different string tension sets and/or combined separate strings from various brands.
Finally settled on Maestro T Janairu’s recommendation of Knobloch medium tension classicals. Captures the dark, moody Ramirez Segovia/Parkening sound and easier to play.
I had a 1A in last month from the 70's and it still had the original information card that came with it in the case that said it was set up to 5mm intentionally!
Thanks Robbie. This came just at the right time for me.
I am grateful for your reply. I will probably spend a few months trying to learn this piece as I have now found some tutorials for Sons de Carrilhoes. Thank you.
Great work and absolutely beautiful playing! I instantly subscribed
Great advices and beautiful playing
lovely tune at the end!
Wow, that's great work!!!
I love the ending. Sounds great Robbie.
Excellent video! Thanks for the information. My dad left me a 1976 Ramirez student model. While my dad was employed by the federal government, he was working with the Spanish Air Force. During one of his trips to Spain, he visited the Ramirez factory and purchased the guitar. I don’t play guitar but I am going to keep it in my home studio guitar closet. It might get used for a recording project someday.
Glad you found the video useful. Thanks for watching.
Nice work.
I've asked about that around the too high action in the Ramirez workshop where the building has been done. They do exactly
the same and to be honest, it gives some "opportunities" as those "too high action guitars with an already low bridgebone" are
most of the time not wanted by players". On auctions they can be had for a low price and I did this trick already on various
other (old) guitars and I must say it works and to be honest: I don't like a fingerboard to be too thick around the topnut. Playing
becomes easier and it simply even handles better as an extra! Thanks for placing!
I repair guitars as a hobby and focus my attention on cheap 1960-80s Japanese guitars. These are usually very well made, solid woods, but need some TLC from years of warping in high humidity. Since they almost always need a new fret job, I employ this trick frequently to get the action really dialed in.
@@FiddleSticks800 The same I do in fact with the older Spanish student guitars with
that ugly filed copper fretwork. They leveled their frets with a file alongside the length
of the neck but they never crowned them afterwards. It simply took too much time. So
correcting the neck / body angle and refretting can be done in one take.
@@2011Noud, out of curiosity, what fret size do you typically prefer?
@@FiddleSticks800 When I refret, I use almost always 1,2 mm high Fret wire. It
simply makes pull offs easier!
Great job Robert you always do wonderful work and then I think to myself I’m gonna pay attention because someday someone might want me to do that and I think I can do it just by watching you do it you’re that good at teaching people you don’t even realize that I guess but thank you for all you’ve done, and all you will do you’re a good man
Thank you for the compliment. You have made my day.
I just love your willingness to share information like the Cavaquinho plans you shared. Building ukulele and mandolins, maybe I should use the word trying too.
Sent out from Ramirez at 5mm is one thing. But not being able to be lowered to 3.5 without major work is another thing altogether. This seems to be all too common on Ramirez, even on their 1A's. It's an indictment on a Brand that is supposed to be a good one. I recently bought a 1966 Conde Hermanos - Sobrinos Domingo Esteso, all original . Not a media Luna, but with the Domingo Esteso headstock. 57 years old and still 3mm at the 12th 6th string, with a bit of saddle to spare. And it's been well used. Sure, it's a flamenco, but the point remains, that a guitar from a reputable maker should be able to be made playable without major surgery. Thats how a quality guitar is built.
I too have repaired several Ramirez 1a’s for this same problem. I remove the fingerboard from the neck by routing all but 1/16” inch off, then heating up that 1/16th and peeling it off with putty knives and spatulas. Then I rout the neck at a downward angle from the 12th fret to the nut. I do not rout more than 2mm’s…from 0mm’s 12 fret to between 1-2mm’s at the nut end. I made an adjustable jig which my router travels on to rout the precise angle in the top of the neck. After that is done, I glue on a new Ebony fingerboard and then sand in the proper fingerboard angle and relief. My target numbers at the saddle are the same as yours, 3.5mm’s 6th string and 2.7mm’s 1st string, 12th fret. I also end up with the new saddle having room to adjust even lower if need be. In 30+ years of building classical guitars, only once have I ever had a customer who wanted their playing action higher! This is an expensive repair. I used to charge $500 to do this and now I won’t touch one for under $1,000.
Great information. Thanks for sharing.
Great job.
The only issue, that sometimes occurs, when you greatly drop the action like this. The intonation becomes impossible to set correctly.
Without adjusting the saddle slot location. It becomes a bigger job then :)
Bravo....
The reason for the high action on Ramirez guitars is because Andres Segovia insisted that his instruments have a high action to accommodate his aggressive technique. Ramirez adopted this for all of his higher end guitars.
I have played two Ramirez1A with standard action. Maybe they make high action for Segovia edition only.
@@johnlay3040 Could be or maybe for a certain period in the 1970s. It would be interesting to know the full story.
Christopher Parkening plays a Ramirez guitar, and you ought to watch a video and see how aggressive he rips into those strings.
Chiistopher Parkening was one of the greatest players of a classical guitar, so he is NOT a typical example...
As a guitar repair man I thought of this before and not only for classical guitars. It may be a better idea than a neck reset in some cases. I did this job maybe three times in my 40 years of repairing. But it still is a very good idea to solve a big problem. Too bad it's an expensive job and most guitars that suffer this problem may be considered not worth the money. That is the price for a refret job plus ofcourse the extra planing and sawing work on the fretboard.
Thanks for this interesting video... I too own a Ramirez and while I love the dark Rosewood back and sides... I have always cussed the high action especially at the 12th fret... I have persevered (23 years...bought it in new in 2000... ) No way would I dare to do this but sure looks like an answer... Difficulty in the UK is finding a trustworthy luthier... I am pleased I am not alone with this model of guitar.... Great video....
Thank you and thanks for watching. Glad you found the video useful.
very interesting...I bought a Contreras (from Manuel) in Madrid in 1978, it also had high action. Eventually someone in Philadelphia "solved" this, but I don't know how they did it....
Nice video Robbie.
If all Ramirez guitars have this same problem, would you say they are badly made guitars??? (i've not seen any recent ones)
No, they are not poorly made. They leave the factory with action in the neighborhood of 5mm.
@@OBrienGuitars El taller Ramírez debe de estar aliviado de tener su aprobación.
Makes me never want to get a Ramirez! When I went to Madrid, I ended up buying a guitar from Juan Alvarez and the action has been perfect for the last 9 years or so
Hello, im about to do this job to my flamenco guitar, i just have one question, will this cause the neck to lose its stringth over time due to shaving more from the FB. Im just concerned about creating more bow.
Currently my guitar has a FB of 5mm at the nut and 3.5mm at the hole side. And im planning to remove 1mm from the nut side and fade all the way the the 12th fret.
Btw, i use only low tension strings (34Kg in total)
An answer would really help. Thank you
Geeze, I will never assault the Ramirez guitar that way. I can't see why it can't be adjusted at the nut and the bridge, including the slot underneath the saddle. It can be carved to make it thinner.
Wow, I never knew my rear bench rest rifle mount could be so useful.
I have a guitar with that same issue. it isn't a Ramirez, though. I have always wondered why it was built that way. I have had it to 4 different luthiers/repair people, and all declined to work on it. Great job on that, by the way.
I do this by myself and in fact it is no big deal. You have to
take the time for it. And a refret job is necessary of course!
Great video, especially the guitar piece at the end. Was it improvised or if not it would be great to know does it have a title/composer?
The name of that song is Sons de Carrilhões by Brazilian composer João Pernambuco.
Bare in mind that if a player had to fill a large concert hall with sound a student height action will not do the business.
A low action also limits the player's ability to damp notes effectively with the left hand.
That said I acknowledge that players today often want comfortable / woosie action heights. ☺
Student action? That's a new one on me. That sounds like some remark from the Del Camp Forum. I've played classical guitar for years, restaurants, weddings, etc. I use 3mm at 12th 6th string. The lated Howard Heitmeyer had his guitar lowered to 3mm when he was 75 years old. He said, " I should have done it 30 years sooner." I know the luthier who refretted David Russell's Damman (sp). Russell had it set just a hair over 3mm like 3.2mm
I do believe that in this day and age, large concert halls tend to use microphones and PA systems. Your statement on that point is moot.
This is a great video. I have the same problem with a hight end Valeriano Bernal from 1997. About how much a work like this would cost? Thanks
Please send me an email for more info. My contact info is on the Lutherie academy website.
Removing all the frets is necessary but shaving a fingerboard accurately and deepen the slots for the new
frets shouldn't take more than about 2 hours work plus refretting as usual (about 200 USD nowadays?)
@@2011Noud Yes, I've been ask $900CAD + TAX so it would go for over a $1000. I really love the guitar but not that much 😅
❤,I followed your advice and managed to make the Di Giorgio guitar have 2.5 mm and 3.5 mm string action respectively. The problem came after I installed the Nutt (I had to lower it a lot) and the strings rub against the veneer of the guitar head
Did you get a bone blank for the new nut?
That way you can start tall enough, then begin slowly cutting the individual string notches, and finally round off the top corners to make an attractive new nut.
I wouldn't think the original would drop right in without removing too much of the lower edge.
Myself, I can't see it working at all without possible headstock interference unless the amount is scant.
But the comments here suggest it's a good proven solution with similar instruments.
I'd opt to change nut and saddle & if neccessary adjust the top of the bridge lower to accept a shorter saddle.
I was lucky. I was always able to have just enough saddle peeking out above the bridge to work. All the way across without buzz.
btw 2mm is about 1/16"...(that's not a lot)
Curious on how many hours involved in this fix? I am thinking this would be warranted on a high end classical but not a mid level guitar. Also thinking fret board replacement would be 2-4 times the labor hours? Comparing my old Martin D-28 minor surgery, started with adjusting truss rod (not in most nylons), adjusting nut height, then planing and setting bridge height. Turned out well without a neck reset (major surgery). Rodriguez models also seem high. Also curious on volume loss with lower action?
This was about a 2 - 4 hour fix. replacing a fretboard is more and can open up more opportunities for things to go wrong, for example, the finish. I didn't notice any volume loss with this fix. BTW - not all guitars are candidates for this procedure.
@@OBrienGuitars thanks for the reply, 2-4 hours is not bad considering the refret process
Robert.... I noticed that Your a Southpaw that plays Righty...there are more of Us out there then many would think ! :)
You are very observant.
hard to understand why Segovia changed from Hauser to Ramirez 1a... following the Zeitgeist?🤯
What about this idea: remove the frets and then epoxy on a 1/16" thick veneer, re-saw the slots, and then new frets? I'm confronting this exact situation with a cheap nylon string guitar . . . that I want to pitch in the trash after hearing you play the Ramirez.
OR, have you ever seen a classical/nylon string with large/tall frets? Would that cause major intonation problems from finger pressure?
I would prefer to replace the fretboard with a thicker one but your idea might work.
I'm looking for the most affordable solid top (preferably, spruce), French polish classical guitar available. Any suggestions?
French polish (shellac) is reserved to high end instruments generally, so I doubt you'll find an affordable guitar with that option.
@@stratocactus That wasn't the question.
@@newgunguy4176 Well as a guitarmaker, that's the answer I would give to a customer asking that question. Now if you want to hear it or not, it's up to you. Have a good day/evening wherever you are.
@@stratocactus Again, that wasn't the question. Of all the guitars with a French polish, there's gotta be one that's more affordable than the rest. If you don't know what that price point is, it's fine. I don't know, either. That's why I'm asking. The answer you gave me, I already know. That's why I asked a DIFFERENT question.
@@newgunguy4176 sorry but "affordable" isn't very specific. I guess you meant "the cheapest". Or maybe specify a price range that you consider affordable ?
Sweet playing... great lesson...
The world may be going to hell,some of us have guitars to chase away them blues...
Hi Robert
Whats the tune your playing?
Hi, Andrew.
He is playing a piece called "Sons de carrilhões" written by the Brazilian composer João Pernambuco.
Um abraço
I bought a 1A Ramirez without understanding you cannot adjust the action unless you take the frets out and major overhaul. Why in the world would Ramirez make a guitar that you can't get the action under 5?
Great video - although it's convinced me NOT to try this at home and to find a good luthier ;)
3.5mm is high enough. I actually play with 3mm . I speaking about the 6th string at the 12th fret.
that's not a difect it's just a perfect action for classical guitar!! Don't do that to a ramirez if you want lower action buy another guitar!!
Maybe you're right but keep in mind that the action on most classical guitars changes over time
causing a more difficult playability. For me, a guitar remains a tool to make music. Have respect
for it and have it done by an experienced luthier if playability becomes a big problem. At the
Jose Ramirez workshop they are following the same procedure. I've been there!
Not for the faint of heart...
scary with a 10k guitar if it’s a 1a.
cost a fortune all with crap action question why??
Why lower the action? They sound far better with the action higher imo, its like turning a racecar into a car for student drivers
My Ramirez (1a from 1981) had an action from 8 mm (top 12th fret to the lowest string)
Even Andres Segovia would have struggled with it! so I followed this procedure and moreover...
They are doing exactly the same thing on their guitars at the Ramirez workshop!