I don’t always comment, but I always watch your videos, and more times than not, I learn something significant from them. I love your passion, and you are a terrific teacher!! I especially appreciate the fact that you do your own thing, and don’t just regurgitate the same stuff the other 20 channels do, because with few exceptions, that’s what your peers are doing. I also like that you don’t talk 500mph so I can actually absorb the information, and that you go deep into all of it. This is pretty much the perfect channel for me and I suspect, for many others as well. THANKS!
I got the Clearaudio Outer Limit today, it is not snake oil, it makes a very big difference, stage/bass/seperation, everything improves and I can play warped records. This ring has enough weight that it flattens even the 180 gr pressings. I know it costs a lot, but it a real upgrade that you can hear. If you have a player who can deal with the weight, think about it, I recommend it.
Another great video. Also I don't believe majority of us mind if a video is longer than 10 minutes, it kept my interest all the way through! Keep up the good work!
In my experience it helps some recordings sound more focused and detailed but others it strips the soundstage of all its liveliness. Its really dependant on the pressing or mix itself
Clamps and weights can be seen as helping to flatten the record into a plane so that the angle of attack of the stylus is constant. We would get benefits such as certainty in the case of stylus rake angle. We can imagine that the constant angular velocity with a flat record would mean that if we had a theoretical circular groove the speed of the passage of groove length past the stylus would be constant. A warped record would vary the length of groove passing by the stylus per second…this would possibly be audible as pitch variation. So, reducing the degree to which a record is warped would be a valuable way to increase accuracy during transcription. The tonearm will also swing up and down, the horizontal bearings moving in and out of stiction as the warp accelerates and decelerates the end of the tonearm up and down continually. The effective length of the tonearm will be increasing and decreasing too. So flatness would be an ideal. Sound quality must be better with flat vinyl rotating in a plane at 90 degrees to the vertical axis. The other thing to consider is resonance. Vibrations spread from the point of contact of the stylus through the vinyl and reflect in again when the reach the boundaries of the material at the edges and surfaces where they can bounce back towards the stylus and add noise and distortion. Weighting and clamping can dampen and reduce the levels of resonance. The vacuum mat seems to have all of the advantages of clamping and weighting without the disadvantages. Weight is the force of gravity acting on the mass of an object. The point contact of the turntable bearing on its thrust plate has friction. When the tip of the bearing experiences weight it’s pressure creates friction that has to be equalled by the turning force of the motor and the belt. When the counterforce of friction matches the torque of the motor the platter revolves with a constant angular velocity. The weight very slightly increases angular momentum but since the moment of the force remains close to the centre of rotation there is not very noticeable increase. Clamping has less effect on the bearing friction but does transfer more bearing noise into the record and stylus. It seems that the market is waiting for the return of the vacuum mat which may have the advantages of weights and clamps, without the disadvantages. I believe, on balance, weights that are not overly massive e.g. 300g reduce resonance and they have been my go to remedy for a while now.
I appreciate you doing this video very much. It was very good. I just want to share a correction with you that you either aren't aware of or just did not mention: Weight Clamps (as well as screw down clamps, tighten down clamps and clever clamps) are used ONLY 'secondary' to try and flatten a vinyl record to the platter. If you think about it, putting weight in the center really doesn't do much for flattening the entire surface of the record to the platter. The primary reason behind these types of clamps is for vibration control and not for flattening. Even with the best bearings and the best tone arms, the tone arm and the bearing create vibration that transfers to the vinyl surface, causing micro vibrations that can translate to the sonic playback. Clamps are primarily - first and foremost designed to dampen vibration, any seasoned audiophile will tell you that. They are only secondary in the way of flattening the record to the platter. So actually the 'snake oil' you mention is not the dampening feature, but the 'snake oil' is the flattening feature. That is why peripheral rings were designed. Anyway, love your video ;-)
Hi Scott, thank you for sharing your experience and for your nice words. Actually, this is more a debate than a well traced path (or at least that is my perception, maybe I am wrong). Clamps, in my opinion, and not only in mine, are used mainly to...clamp! That is why they are called clamps, because they are used to clasp, to fasten the record to the platter, mainly for the shape of the vinyl, which is always slightly warped and also for stabilization (i.e. vibrations). Not only platter vibrations but record self-induced vibrations due to the warping. In fact, that is why a lot of weight clamps are called stabilizers. In the latter, that particular effect is enhanced thanks to a specific geometry of construction and are mainly designed to attenuate mechanical vibrations. I am glad you wrote this comment because I did not put enough emphasis on this aspect, so thank you for bringing this up!
Apparantly the company record doctor makes a version of that clear audio spindle pressure clamp that is actually affordable, fairly light weight "from the looks of it" and is pretty much the same exact design, it appears to be well made, you can even buy it from amazon!
Adding additional weight can also have a positive effect on flutter/wow in some cases. Just like a heavy weight brass platter, it can flatten out speed fluctuations.
I have the Mitchell and I like it. Except with short spindles it may not grab if you have a thick mat employed for VTA reasons. It will flatten out warped records, but not perfectly so. I think the greatest benefit is that pressing the record down against the mat increases the record’s effective mass and reduces sonic vibrations. It makes for a noticeably cleaner playback.
There are solutions and I have one call vinyl flat which will help you straighten out warped records. I have two clamps, the one that comes with my table and one made by project, I don’t use them often. I would love to have a periphery ring for my VPI, but you are right they are expensive. Vacuum clamping makes me think about the famous Air Force One and Fremer’s Continuum Calibern. I have tried a stabilization weight of two different masses and there wasn’t enough difference to justify the price of either. They were both by a company called HRS and they specialize in eliminating vibrations and are known for very high end audio equipment stands, which are also extremely expensive.
I have a spindle clamp manufactured by J. A. Michell Engineering in England, which I have had since about 1980. It is all aluminium with a screw knob and weighs 88gms. The stated function of the clamp, when I bought it, was to damp vibration in the record, not to reduce warping.
Its both! Some are designed more for vibrations, stabilizator, others for the record natural tendency to slightly warp, clamps. In any case, I do remain skepting on the vibration controll...never noticed any significant improvement on that side...
Okinoki of Japan used to make an ingenious delrin clamp with spring steel arms that have silicone rubber tips that contact the record label. It's a collet clamping design to you push it down and rtate the top to close the collet and prab the spindle. I bought mine around 1985 for $12 and it still works great, it's a well thought out design that has proven to be durable. A lot of the available clamps sold now are grossly overpriced.
I have the JA Michell clamp, which I like, it works well, but the very short spindle of my SL1200 make the use of it occasionally impossible. I tend to use my DIY weight most often, which is a hockey puck with a 7mm hole drilled into the center.
I did a short video on my clamp (Clear Audio). It made a dramatic difference. I think the platter mat type has a lot to do with it also. On my old Kenwood turntable I don't think the clamp made any difference in sound quality. The weight did cause negative effects on the direct drive bearing.
I have a Nagaoka TS-623 clamp, which I use on my Kyocera PL-910. It tightens onto the spindle, and uses three spring-loaded pads that push the record onto the platter. It is quite lightweight so it wouldn't be a problem for any turntable motor. I don't believe it was marketed to mitigate warps so much as it was to remove resonances.
My favorite clamp is the Basis Reflex clamp, I also have the orsonic D250 and the Thorens Stabilizer. A friend of mine has both the Sota and the Basis and also prefers the Basis.
180/200 gram records are a partial solution to this problem. I have the Clear Audio screw down like you showed. I'm very happy with it, except for the price.
Yaaay ! I got me some Typology,s 😁Your pronunciations always entertains me. Stabb-er-lizer I use the Jed Clampett, but it only works on bluegrass LP's. Warning: Do not push down to hard when clamping, Pushing down and clamping down to hard can DISH the LP, this can vary depending on the platter/mat. I.E. low in center and high on the outer edge like a bowl, NOT GOOD.
A few years ago I thought this was an interesting thing, so I bought a trailer hitch ball at a garage sale for a dollar and used that. However, I didn't use it often and got concerned about the pressure on the spindle bearing of my 1978 turntable. So I quit. I never noticed an improvement anyway. I don't play "significantly" warped records. But they look cool (except for mine).
i made my own clamp. made from 2 antique bedside lamp bases. made of marble. weighs 400gm i don't know if it really makes any difference to the sound quality... but it looks cool! :)
HI. Great video. I'm pretty sure that the TTW ring is not available anymore. But there's Wayne's Audio (which has a UA-cam channel) that makes one at a "reasonable" price. As for VPI ; I've asked them and they told me that as long as the (thick) platter is 12 inches and there's an inch clearance all around, it could be used on other brands. From what I heard, the periphery ring seems to work better by bringing more evenness to the record... and it is so much more elegant than spindle clamps. Peace- Patrick
Hi Sky Captain! Great recommendations! Very helpful indeed. Yes, I wrote in the video description that the TTW in no longer available. My mistake. It is always a good product and some times it pops up in the used market. I did not know about Wayne's Audio. I checked and the ring clamps look fantastic. The only downside is that they are very heavy, 1.45Kg. My turntable accepts only 1Kg max for clamping.
It all depends on your preferences, but I didn’t like a clamp made out of delrin because I found it muted the “air” or stage of the recording. Thinking I’ll need to try a metal clamp, to match my metal platter.
Hi. Great vid man! Love the detail. My question….regarding #3 Grip Spindle Clam. I have a REGA P3 and just received my Michell spindle clamp. When I drop it down on my spindle and lock it down like the one you have in your video, since my spindle spins when the platter is spinning, doesn’t that put stress on the motor?
I honestly have one or two records that have a minor warp to them and even then my technics sl-q30 is super forgiving in playing them with no noticible effect, and its about 36 years old.
I like the detail in many of your videos but since you go into such detail, I'm asking this as kindly as possible. When you address any camera (but especially... your own camera) be sure to keep your head from tilting back. Some viewers have commented about your camera being to high... but this isn't the real problem. Just do the following: Always keep your head level to the camera position because 1) - your nose raises and the viewers are forced to see "up your nose" and 2) - lights and computer screens reflect in you glasses. Just keep your head nice and level... The problem should be minimized and you'll find it makes you appear confident and secure in the information you are sharing. Keep up the good work!
Will a pressure weight be detrimental to a belt-driven record player like my Dual CS-529BT? Will weight affect speed? Is the weight bad for the engine and/or suspension?
In the 70's I couldnt afford a real record clamp/weight, but I came up with an inexpensive semi-effective clamp type solution. I found a small rubber electrical grommet at the hardware store with a hole in the center that was just a bit smaller than the spindle, you pushed the grommet down with a minimal force and it did actually pull the center of the record down and held it to the platter - how well this really worked I can only guess but I always felt like the bass sounded smoother and a bit more definition overall. Of course this could have just been wishful thinking until one day I ran across a product with this exact idea called 'the pig" that cost about $3.00 which I bought - its a little rubber piece that resembles a game piece from the old board game "Sorry". It did the same thing my electrical grommet did, fit snugly enough on the spindle so it held the record down tight and it was easily pulled off. I still have my "phono pig" but I also finally bought a couple of platter weights and so "the pig" and my grommet were both retired.
Should add screw on clamps such as Michell Orbe. Specific to TT with threaded spindle but more effective with warps than the pressure attachment only. Centre hub first raises the centre of disc slightly. More effective with dishing and edge warps.
I did! It's actually on the thumbnail of the video, only that its Nobsound but its identical and I also mentioned the Michell as well as the Clearaudio Twister. I actually did not recommend pressure clamps....are we talking about the same video? ;-)
So curious. If you clamp your record to the platter... would this promote any vibrations in the chassis? On the fence on this one. Thinking that you have to pick the best of the worst problem. Maybe solving a problem and creating another one.
After many years I must admit that clamps are useful on rare occasions, especially when warped towards the center otherwise if well designed and with mass they have a good stabilization function on mid-low quality models.
@@anadialog Probably will try them out in the end. Those fun little things. Have one of those Hudson antistatic brushes to attach to my Technics. Looking forward to seeing how that will work out.
Pick the one you prefer! As stated in the instructions, do not exceed 1kg. I am currently using a clearaudio twister but also the Michell/Nobsoubd is great!
Obviously it takes more time to gain the correct speed if rotating mass is bigger, but bearings must be VERY bad, if you need much more power to maintain rotation speed when weight is added. Excuse my english.
You said a lot about clamps that may be hard on motors and nothing about problems that may happen to the bearing because of too much mass. I have a Linn LP12 and a lot of people say you shouldn't use a cramp on the LP12 but I do. It's of very low mass and it's made by KAB and it helps with the sound in a way that I like but I don't use it with all my LP's like 220 gr records the clamp is just not needed.
I do think they probably help, but I'm not getting ripped for hundreds of dollars just to flatten my slightly warped record's! I'd just rather pick up a rock outside, or leave it as is, than do that! Don't get me wrong, I'm always looking to improve audio!
:-)) I hear you man! In fact that is way I suggest a 40$ or less solution. I just wish they were still (effective) vacuum solutions...those would really help I think!
I don't think I could use a record clamp on my turntable. It's a Technics SL-5 linear tracking model. The motor/tracking arm is probably too low/close to the record. Interesting video, though.
A vacuum solution is the "best of the best" in terms of a clamping, but not in terms of a sound. As these require a rubber (silicon) slipmat, which is itself the worse choice imho (because a PVC/rubber margin creates a lot of reflections comparing to PVC/acryl or PVC/cork margins).
i have used a rubber fitting on my Revolver Black Ash turntable for many years.. & it came with my deck & is called a PIG.. this is great for playing my records as i have always used it.. but if someone can tell me that one of these Weight Clamps will do a better job then i will try one .. but until then i won't be wasting my money for show..
Cool! I agree. I finally purchased the sota reflex and I can say that it does help but very little. So little that it does not justify its price. Better off with the nob sound clamp!
Hello. I'm looking to replace my 1 lb Sleeve City Record Weight with this clamp. I am curious as i found 2 other clamps on Amazon (Signstek and Nobsound) that are identical (but cheaper) to the Michell clamp. Would you have any thoughts on these? One person said they were cheap knock offs to the Michell clamp and weren't built as well. Can you comment on this? Thanks
Hi Craig, sorry if I am slow responding but as you can see the videos are interrupted until July since I am out of my country for work and it takes time to respond. Actually, I did put in the video description the Nobsound. I must admit that I am only suggestion the function of these clamps. I have not owned them. Perhaps others who are reading can chime in and help? I think that these clamps are very simple and the quality of the materials are very much the same. I would go with the Nobsound without any doubt. I have a clearaudio twister but otherwise I would go with that one....give us some feedback if you decide to proceed!
The motor doesn’t deal with weight, it deals with friction and mass. Mass reduces the angular acceleration so the turntable takes longer to get up to the required angular velocity. Weight is a force that acts toward the centre of the Earth and is proportional to mass. The force will push the tip of the bearing spindle onto the thrust plate. The friction is a counterforce to the turning of the bearing by the motor the increased mass of a weighted puck would slightly increase friction on the bearing tip. The motor doesn’t see weight. It sees friction and inertia. Inertia is the tendency for an object to maintain a constant direction and velocity according to the applied force. There is no change in weight acting on the motor. Once the motor has experienced having to supply extra force needed to overcome inertia it turns at a constant speed supplying an equal but opposite force to the forces acting to slow the platter. As long as the driving force balances the counterforce the platter spins at the angular velocity that the motor and pulley ratio demand. The motor acts to top up the angular velocity as friction in the bearing tends to slow the platter. Surprisingly the purpose of the clamp is not to flatten the vinyl. Clamps act primarily to dampen vibrations and that contributes to dynamic range by attenuating resonances out of the signal. It is not necessary or often possible to completely flatten the record. A warped record needs to be treated with a flattener to make it more playable. The Michell clamp comes with a felt washer to force the edges of the record onto the rim of the platter and ultimately, flattens the record surface onto the platter. The Michell clamp is probably the cheapest option that aims to flatten the record by design. It is fragile and will crack after a few uses. If they make an all metal version it might be a solution. You need to demonstrate the effects clamps have on record playback and records. What does it look like? What positive effects are there? What negative effects are there? And give some before and after effects perhaps show waveform changes on recorded music on screen.
@@darinkidd9681 weight and mass are different. One is the amount of material in an object (mass) it doesn’t have a direction… it is not a force. It is constant regardless of where that object is in the universe. A force is a vector quantity it has direction and magnitude. Weight is measured in Newtons along a line connecting the centres of mass of two objects. We can relate mass and weight in terms of the accelerating force that the two masses generate because of each mass’s gravity. On the surface of the Earth with its mass of nearly 6x10^24 kg, all normal objects are always several orders of magnitude less massive than the Earth so, the rate of acceleration of the Earth towards an object close to the ground because of that objects mass is several orders of magnitude less than the rate of acceleration of that object towards the relatively incredibly massive Earth. We always perceive objects as falling towards the ground if we raise them to a height. So the force of gravity is a property of the mass of all objects, the greater the mass, the greater it’s gravity. The Earth has a gravitational force of about 9.81N/kg on objects that we lift up. That attraction is what we measure as weight. force is proportional to acceleration force is proportional to mass Since the gravitational force is a constant 9.81N/kg close to the Earth All objects accelerate to the surface of the Earth at the same rate per kg because F/m = a so acceleration due to Earth gravity is 9.81 m/s^2 Consequently, since practically none of us venture off the planet to other planetary bodies with different masses to the Earth’s, we use weight (the force per kg of matter in Earth’s gravitational field), interchangeably with mass ( the amount of material in an object)…
IMPORTANT NOTE: a Michell clamp - or any spindle gripping clamp - DOES NOT WORK on a platter mat with a recessed label area. Since many mats have this feature (especially older/vintage types TT's) I think it's appropriate to incorporate this fact in this video. You CAN use one on mats of this type nevertheless, but you'll end up bending you're records outer edge upward. Which is something you don't want, obviously.
Hi Joris, I do not understand your comment. Mats with a recession are designed to host the record label. Once positioned a record with a label the surface is perfectly parallel and coupled with the platter. Therefore, the Michell and any other clamp will perfectly work without any problem....am I missing something?
Two exceptions here: 1 - most of these recessions in standard mats are way deeper than the thickness of a generic label, and 2 - modern pressings tend to have thinner labels than older records. Also, Michell clamps come with a felt washer that is meant to RAISE the middle of the record so you can press down avoiding this 'outer edge-rising'.
I understand but even if the thichness was different we are talking about microns. These wont harm a record in my opinion. This would be a problem with any clamp of a certain weight or locking mechanism, which means the vast mojority and also the only ones that really work...
I'm not certain of any scientific reason why a weight or clamp would have any beneficial effects on the playback of a vinyl recording. I suggest performing a double-blind test to determine if any difference can reliably be discerned. Any other type of comparison test will lead the listener to "hear" a difference if he or she see when the weight or clamp is being used and I'm sure the 60 dollar weight is going to sound better than the 30 dollar version -- maybe twice as good? My turntable is a Technics SL-110 direct drive with an SME 3009 Series II improved tonearm which handles warped records without a problem -- no rumble or pitch fluctuations at all. However, eccentrically pressed records will cause pitch fluctuations with each revolution which become more audible as the centermost grooves are reached owing to the greater percentage of speed error occurring under the stylus. No clamp or weight will do anything to correct that; only a replacement pressing -- or, better yet, a compact disc which will produce perfect pitch accuracy. Being a classical music lover, this problem occurred quite frequently -- particularly noticeable with music having long and sustained passages and I had to return one out of every four or five LPs when I was still collecting them. Also, pre and post echo problems were audible with many carelessly mastered LPs. I assume these problems still plague LP records.
I don't support the idea of adding weight as a solution to this issue, because most platter main bearings use a ball and flat as the fulcrum for the spindle, because the ball on a flat has the smallest possible contact area , resulting in less drag and better sound. it does concentrate a lot of weight into a small area, so adding additional weight would seem a poor mechanical decision, even if increasing the vinyl contact area through this added mass might sound better right away. Another consideration is that a lot of direct drive platters use a horizontal ball bearing ring as the main bearing, a lazy Susan type of deal, and adding a lot of weight onto multiple balls is not going to help keep them from adding to the sonic signature of the mechanism. Also, a warped record is really a separate issue from playback, although a flat surface is critical to the results. adding weight around the spindle area probably isn't going to deform much vinyl, unless you add a lot, and the vinyl is very thin. the concept behind these devices is to help the vinyl surface better mate to the platter, so the mechanical energy imparted into the vinyl during playback has someplace else to go , rather than just rattling around in the vinyl disk and perhaps reflecting energy back into the playback groove, smearing the details. Which returns us as to why the record masters are cut while being held in place with a vacuum, when a great lump of weight in the center would certainly be easier and cheaper. Heck they could put a twenty ton hydraulic press on the center area, if simply adding mass around the center area was the answer to better sound. While cutting lathes use vacuum to hold the mastering disk in place, to me, such complexity is moire suitable to a business with a maintenance staff, and for home use, most people have to install the vacuum pumps in another room , as those pumps are not known as quiet devices.
Good point. They are identical from what I see. Clearaudio is always very expensive. In any case the principle is the same so the Nobsound clamp is just as good...and its flat!
LOL... A Lot of them have Liquids inside... The Liquid is thinned Snake Oil mostly... And make a Vacuum in your Wallet... But - don`t take me wrong - a little Weight on the Platter does not kill your Bearing, but can actually increase the quality of the Sound. But more important than all this, the Mastering of your Record has much mor effect to the Quality of the Vinyl than everything Else. A Proper Turntable is all you need. ;-)
Of course...but that is only the starting point. I suggest to improve this approach. If I had stopped tweaking and upgrading my system I would have probably abandoned this passion or simply folded on Mp3 like most do, which is not a problem. Not everyone is interested in a faithfull reproduction I do because it emotions me. If I don't get emotioned, the music is without its soul and just a mere resemblance of its true beauty and power.
Shame that a lot of modern pressings are warped including some Mobile Fidelity pressings. I’ve been buying LP’s since the eighties and I get a much higher percentage of warped records these days.
your video and explanations is very good, but let me tell my point of view about this item, I don't like to touch any part of the plate and spindle, because the gap or clearance precision given on the machinery lathe to built this partes is so delicate, many people can say, "Hey Gus you are exaggerating, nothing happen" yes, but if we worry about the best audio performances in reproduction by your $, is so important to take care if you touche those parts, the plate and the spindle, in this case this clamp you need to handle or manipulating with some pressure on the spindle, with very imprecise movements that can damage that parts, not to the extent of being unusable, but in this case you add more imprecision and it traduce in noise! I prefer a clamp just with balance weight, that you only place it without exerting pressures with imprecision, and the ring clamp, yes I know is more expensive, but it worth it!
I understand tour point. I cam only say that most of the best reviewers out there use this method. In the end I must admit that I do not notice much of a difference so your position may be correct afterall.
I don't use weights................they wear out bearings and motor . There was another solution in the seventies/eighties , at that time attention was drawn to the mat ........I forgot the name of the mat but it was sometrhing like silicone that sucked the whole record to its surface .............this worked way better than clamps , I used it on ST7 linear tracking TT............and the results were asthonishing ( with the V15III )........ Decoupling from the platter and sucked to the mat .........the only platter mat that is genius and I use today is the copper platter from Micro Seiki.........and a spindle clamp. No it does NOT sopund metallic...........just the inverse with revealing many microdynamics and tonal colors usual hidden in the recording
Winbo! But then please share with us your experience with vacuum suction...is it worth it? Have you tried with and without suction? Give us some info on the pros and cons!
First off, this is with warped records only.Bass is more accurate and detailed. Pace and timing are better. Noise floor is lower because the warp isnt amplified. The amplifier has more power as it is not amplifying the warp.Works better with Convex warps instead of concave, so badly warped records are flattened out on one side but not the other sometimes. My vinyl connection is generally in very good condition anyway. I regularly change the position my favourite albums are in. This can defeat warping.
It's the same principle of the Michell, Nobsound and Sota. Used it for years on several direct drive turntables. Never had a problem. It couples the record with the platter, which is already spinning together with the spindle. Nothing is changing with this type of clamp.
These are essentially novelties exploiting men who fixate on "improving" vinyl lp playback. Thinking critically, how much can weight placed dead center improve warping over the entire surface?
WTF? Weights and clamps on your records? Surely that's gonna cause drag? More audiophile snake oil! What happens when you fumble it and drop it on the vinyl or the turntable- ouch! Why not just get a rock and sit it on top? A fool and his money is easily parted... anyone wanna buy a castle in Scotland going cheap?
The videos offer good information, but English as your second language as well as a lack of organization of the video makes it way to long for you to make a point. This could have been a ten minute video. May I mention using a rough script or at least an outline. I say this because your videos ARE informative. If they weren't, I wouldn't bother. :)
Thanks Rob, I apprechiate your suggestions. It is hard for me to perfection the passages because I have vwey little time...literally...I need that hour with the house empy to do a vid and trust me it is very rare...I will try to optimize in any case, peehpas with a lower number of vids...
Depends. As the weight is mostly concentrated in the center of the record, there's not much inertia added on the periphery of the platter. And you can even give it a little swing, your hand on the "knob", to help it start. That's what we do with a lot of hi-end, hi-mass platter turntables anyway. I'd worry more about the spindle itself.
6:13:“ I can‘t say I’ve ever tried one, but I‘ m shure it does have positive effects.“ At this point I knew: not systematically analysed experience, pure fairy tales. Time waste.
Hi Astra, Yes, I am always honest and I am not going to claim fake experience. Nevertheless, I am bringing experience over other clamps. I am also convinced, actually it appears logic, that if I have a warped record, a peripheral clamp will have positive effects as claimed. Don't you think? Moreover, I think a video can present some aspects and opinions and report experience on others. The important is to declare so. I am not that sure that everyone does that. If I am looking for science I am certainly not going to use UA-cam. Anyway, thank you for watching and posting your comment.
ana[dia]log Hi ana(dia)log. Thanks for your immediate answer. I hope I have not offended you with the wording (time waste). It's my concern that not the viewer but you are about to waste time. That is the case, when your gathered experience does not result in any knowledge about the iissue. And the issue is: which sonic deficiencies has a turntable without fixing the record to the platter and what kind of possibilities exist to overcome such deficiencies. Of course a warped record can only be flattended by an outer ring and a central clamp or weight. I do not play any warped record and I don't buy them. Sadly the whole production of ttw is off. The object of a turntable is a mechano-electrical conversion. 50 percent of the task is the absolute time correct reproduction in form of an constant speed. And it's the record, not the platter. The other 50 percent are done by converting the microscopic form variations of the groove ( we're talking about micrometers) into a microscopic current. The horizontal position of the turntable is a necessary prerequisite. Off centerered records can not be recentered by any of the mentioned means. Nakamichi once solved this problem and no other company in the whole self called high end cult didn't even try to adress this problem. They are not willing or not able, and they don't talk about it. What's next: it's necessary to avoid any relative movement between platter and record. Any speed variations between platter and record must result in unwanted pitch variations. So it is logical to avoid such deviations by connecting platter and record. But with which amount of force? Of course with the lowest necessary. So a clamp might be the best solution. It does probably not alter the form of the record. Probably! No manufacturer mention this question. There are numerous different weights in offer. A few of them are variable. This invites to endless hours of weight changing. Some of the most expensive turntables offer a "system" consisting of a platter mat and weight/clamp solution. But none is depicting a rationale behind . You always hear the common nonsense of tight bass, clearer midrange and airier hights. Wider soundstage, more dynamics, blah, blah blah. Is there a relative movement between the platter and the record? Get a felt marker, mark record and mat and play. If both marks are unchanged after playing the whole side, there is no relative movement. Compare a slip mat with a rubber mat. Every Technics owner can do that. Resonances. Resonances are not nice, if they lead to an audible difference. You know resonances. Switch the amplifier off and play the record. What do you hear? Music, not sweet sweet music, but music. It's the cartridge, or is it the record surface? The whole energy that emanates this sound is lost. This vibration cannot be converted into current. Try, if you can reduce it with clamp, weight or peripheral ring. The record: preechoes. The needle is running in the first groove, the microphone is on, the orchestra hasn't begin to play but you hear the third bar very silent. And that is happening throughout the complete recording, with every lp you ever bought. You're not listening to two channels, but to four, you lucky son of a bitch. Double the value (sarcasm mode off). The solution: better vinyl and more distance between the grooves (thicker groove walls). This is perhaps the only advantage of 45 recordings. In short: science is cumbersome, frustrating and expensive. But don't let yourself be seduced to muddle plausible assumptions with sound knowledge.
Whoa! Now that is an articulated comment! Thank you for sharing your experience. As I always say, this needs to be a DIALOG, not a monolog and I am ready to learn from all of you out there! No offense taken, thank you for saying that. The fact that most TT are off is very interesting...and worrying! Ok, I understand that you do not like assumptions and generally speaking I agree. But again, I was illustrating what was on the market or made in the past (I would love to test the Audio-Technica suction products but that is now impossible! Not for the price but because the rubber of these gizmos is consumed and melting. What I wanted to communicate is that a simple threaded clamp can grip and press the record down flatter (not flat) at a decent price (with the right models), without stressing the motor. Along the road Iike to give some insight on the similar or parallel products. If I need to test everything before going on air it would take ages and tons of money for just a mediocre help in the end. As I said, the important is to cite the sources and state what has been tested or not. That is IF you decide to comment on it. Thanks again for your info!
ana[dia]log regarding the circumstances of video production I totally accept your statement. What I wanted to bring to mind is: before you change anything be aware of what you want to approach.
I know! I always end up doing long videos and when I start I promise my self to be quick! I do cover a lot of clamps and types though...that does take time...
ana[dia]log ...in my opinion 20 minutes is not too long. You also do not need to apologise for using the word typology. Thank you for the informative content!
Bro, clamping the record kills the musicality of music. The restricts the movements of the tone arm and record, clamping the record made the record sounds dull and the music sounds dead.
@@anadialog try not to look too much at the appearance, rather focus on the sound, if you are not sure about the difference try to get someon's help to do a blind test
Goran, I have no idea why think I am focusing on appearance (which appearance? it's invisible!). I have listen to suction turntables and they are simply amazing. The subtle detail that they deliver its unmatchable. Again, why do you say it sucks? Focus on my question and not on your suppositions.
@@anadialog I have been using record players with suction for 15 years, sound without suction is significantly more lively. sometimes I turn on suction a little bit to deal with heavily warped records
Thanks for the answer. May I ask why you think this is so? How can it worsen the sound, in your opinion? These are not rethoric questions. I am genuinely interested...
![ANA[DIA]LOG](http://yt3.ggpht.com/50CpmGNilS8aoMlarZVhI_GxRDoZdbj4ZgwCMZXg-Rq2PrEvCytlE6RVyLUrNY-rwE_sAlZ1Zw=s48-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj)
Clamps that you can tighten really help reduce vibrations and calm the sound😊
I don’t always comment, but I always watch your videos, and more times than not, I learn something significant from them. I love your passion, and you are a terrific teacher!! I especially appreciate the fact that you do your own thing, and don’t just regurgitate the same stuff the other 20 channels do, because with few exceptions, that’s what your peers are doing. I also like that you don’t talk 500mph so I can actually absorb the information, and that you go deep into all of it. This is pretty much the perfect channel for me and I suspect, for many others as well. THANKS!
Wow! You made my day and even my month! I will be smiling fpr a long time after this comment.....THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!
I change playback speed on several channels. Touch the upper right corner of the video. *
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
I got the Clearaudio Outer Limit today, it is not snake oil, it makes a very big difference, stage/bass/seperation, everything improves and I can play warped records. This ring has enough weight that it flattens even the 180 gr pressings. I know it costs a lot, but it a real upgrade that you can hear. If you have a player who can deal with the weight, think about it, I recommend it.
the michell rega clamp is the universal model, works great with the felt washer (supplied) placed under the record. my go to clamp.
Another great video.
Also I don't believe majority of us mind if a video is longer than 10 minutes, it kept my interest all the way through!
Keep up the good work!
Thanks for the support!!
I recently bought a Mitchell engineer one. It came with a central felt and helps reducing the dish warped records.
Fremer’s demo of Continuum is astounding, even through my iPad. 🤦♀️🤩🌈🎊
I´ve watched most of your videos. I like the way you explain every single detail. I´ve taken most of your suggestions. Greetings from Argentina!
Thank you very much. These are the comments that make me go ahead!
In my experience it helps some recordings sound more focused and detailed but others it strips the soundstage of all its liveliness. Its really dependant on the pressing or mix itself
Agreed!
Clamps and weights can be seen as helping to flatten the record into a plane so that the angle of attack of the stylus is constant. We would get benefits such as certainty in the case of stylus rake angle.
We can imagine that the constant angular velocity with a flat record would mean that if we had a theoretical circular groove the speed of the passage of groove length past the stylus would be constant. A warped record would vary the length of groove passing by the stylus per second…this would possibly be audible as pitch variation. So, reducing the degree to which a record is warped would be a valuable way to increase accuracy during transcription.
The tonearm will also swing up and down, the horizontal bearings moving in and out of stiction as the warp accelerates and decelerates the end of the tonearm up and down continually. The effective length of the tonearm will be increasing and decreasing too. So flatness would be an ideal.
Sound quality must be better with flat vinyl rotating in a plane at 90 degrees to the vertical axis.
The other thing to consider is resonance. Vibrations spread from the point of contact of the stylus through the vinyl and reflect in again when the reach the boundaries of the material at the edges and surfaces where they can bounce back towards the stylus and add noise and distortion.
Weighting and clamping can dampen and reduce the levels of resonance.
The vacuum mat seems to have all of the advantages of clamping and weighting without the disadvantages.
Weight is the force of gravity acting on the mass of an object. The point contact of the turntable bearing on its thrust plate has friction. When the tip of the bearing experiences weight it’s pressure creates friction that has to be equalled by the turning force of the motor and the belt. When the counterforce of friction matches the torque of the motor the platter revolves with a constant angular velocity. The weight very slightly increases angular momentum but since the moment of the force remains close to the centre of rotation there is not very noticeable increase.
Clamping has less effect on the bearing friction but does transfer more bearing noise into the record and stylus.
It seems that the market is waiting for the return of the vacuum mat which may have the advantages of weights and clamps, without the disadvantages.
I believe, on balance, weights that are not overly massive e.g. 300g reduce resonance and they have been my go to remedy for a while now.
I appreciate you doing this video very much. It was very good. I just want to share a correction with you that you either aren't aware of or just did not mention: Weight Clamps (as well as screw down clamps, tighten down clamps and clever clamps) are used ONLY 'secondary' to try and flatten a vinyl record to the platter. If you think about it, putting weight in the center really doesn't do much for flattening the entire surface of the record to the platter. The primary reason behind these types of clamps is for vibration control and not for flattening. Even with the best bearings and the best tone arms, the tone arm and the bearing create vibration that transfers to the vinyl surface, causing micro vibrations that can translate to the sonic playback. Clamps are primarily - first and foremost designed to dampen vibration, any seasoned audiophile will tell you that. They are only secondary in the way of flattening the record to the platter. So actually the 'snake oil' you mention is not the dampening feature, but the 'snake oil' is the flattening feature. That is why peripheral rings were designed. Anyway, love your video ;-)
Hi Scott, thank you for sharing your experience and for your nice words.
Actually, this is more a debate than a well traced path (or at least that is my perception, maybe I am wrong). Clamps, in my opinion, and not only in mine, are used mainly to...clamp! That is why they are called clamps, because they are used to clasp, to fasten the record to the platter, mainly for the shape of the vinyl, which is always slightly warped and also for stabilization (i.e. vibrations). Not only platter vibrations but record self-induced vibrations due to the warping. In fact, that is why a lot of weight clamps are called stabilizers. In the latter, that particular effect is enhanced thanks to a specific geometry of construction and are mainly designed to attenuate mechanical vibrations. I am glad you wrote this comment because I did not put enough emphasis on this aspect, so thank you for bringing this up!
re: "even....the best bearings and best tonearms, the tonearm and bearing create vibrations that transfers to the vinyl surface." Pure balderdash.
I got Michelle engineering clamp for rega and it's works well very surprisingly for my rega P2 tt
I’m digging your site! You bring up a lot of things to think about! Lots of things to think about to get the best sound.
Apparantly the company record doctor makes a version of that clear audio spindle pressure clamp that is actually affordable, fairly light weight "from the looks of it" and is pretty much the same exact design, it appears to be well made, you can even buy it from amazon!
Adding additional weight can also have a positive effect on flutter/wow in some cases. Just like a heavy weight brass platter, it can flatten out speed fluctuations.
True...
Its called the fly wheel effect
@@smashy152 Ah I call it the first law of newton 😜
I have the Mitchell and I like it. Except with short spindles it may not grab if you have a thick mat employed for VTA reasons. It will flatten out warped records, but not perfectly so. I think the greatest benefit is that pressing the record down against the mat increases the record’s effective mass and reduces sonic vibrations. It makes for a noticeably cleaner playback.
True!
There are solutions and I have one call vinyl flat which will help you straighten out warped records. I have two clamps, the one that comes with my table and one made by project, I don’t use them often. I would love to have a periphery ring for my VPI, but you are right they are expensive. Vacuum clamping makes me think about the famous Air Force One and Fremer’s Continuum Calibern. I have tried a stabilization weight of two different masses and there wasn’t enough difference to justify the price of either. They were both by a company called HRS and they specialize in eliminating vibrations and are known for very high end audio equipment stands, which are also extremely expensive.
I appreciate the information you gave in this video, after seeing a some videos around y.t. showing folks using various style clamps.
Thanks!
I have a spindle clamp manufactured by J. A. Michell Engineering in England, which I have had since about 1980. It is all aluminium with a screw knob and weighs 88gms. The stated function of the clamp, when I bought it, was to damp vibration in the record, not to reduce warping.
Its both! Some are designed more for vibrations, stabilizator, others for the record natural tendency to slightly warp, clamps. In any case, I do remain skepting on the vibration controll...never noticed any significant improvement on that side...
@@anadialog No argument there. Although the best treatment I know for a warped record is 2 sheets of glass and a weight.
Okinoki of Japan used to make an ingenious delrin clamp with spring steel arms that have silicone rubber tips that contact the record label. It's a collet clamping design to you push it down and rtate the top to close the collet and prab the spindle. I bought mine around 1985 for $12 and it still works great, it's a well thought out design that has proven to be durable.
A lot of the available clamps sold now are grossly overpriced.
I have the JA Michell clamp, which I like, it works well, but the very short spindle of my SL1200 make the use of it occasionally impossible. I tend to use my DIY weight most often, which is a hockey puck with a 7mm hole drilled into the center.
I did a short video on my clamp (Clear Audio). It made a dramatic difference. I think the platter mat type has a lot to do with it also. On my old Kenwood turntable I don't think the clamp made any difference in sound quality. The weight did cause negative effects on the direct drive bearing.
Yes I agree! The mat can help or create issues. Thanks for your contribution!
I have a Nagaoka TS-623 clamp, which I use on my Kyocera PL-910. It tightens onto the spindle, and uses three spring-loaded pads that push the record onto the platter. It is quite lightweight so it wouldn't be a problem for any turntable motor. I don't believe it was marketed to mitigate warps so much as it was to remove resonances.
Good pick! Well...let's say both!
I had fun google image searching each type as you went along
My favorite clamp is the Basis Reflex clamp, I also have the orsonic D250 and the Thorens Stabilizer. A friend of mine has both the Sota and the Basis and also prefers the Basis.
180/200 gram records are a partial solution to this problem. I have the Clear Audio screw down like you showed. I'm very happy with it, except for the price.
Yes but when those warp it is even worse!
If they don't suffer from the common "Non Fill"
Yaaay ! I got me some Typology,s 😁Your pronunciations always entertains me.
Stabb-er-lizer
I use the Jed Clampett, but it only works on bluegrass LP's.
Warning: Do not push down to hard when clamping, Pushing down and clamping down to hard can DISH the LP, this can vary depending on the platter/mat. I.E. low in center and high on the outer edge like a bowl, NOT GOOD.
A few years ago I thought this was an interesting thing, so I bought a trailer hitch ball at a garage sale for a dollar and used that. However, I didn't use it often and got concerned about the pressure on the spindle bearing of my 1978 turntable. So I quit. I never noticed an improvement anyway. I don't play "significantly" warped records.
But they look cool (except for mine).
Interesting vid. I personally think the answer lies with the table mat/suction/friction.
As usual an useful and intriguing analysis, I'm going to follow your suggestions man, thanks so so much!!
Paolo sei troppo buono...ormai di parte! 😉
Those who complain about the length of the videos, can not appreciate. I do not cheer, I notice the quality!!
i made my own clamp. made from 2 antique bedside lamp bases. made of marble. weighs 400gm i don't know if it really makes any difference to the sound quality... but it looks cool! :)
That also helps! ;-)
HI. Great video. I'm pretty sure that the TTW ring is not available anymore. But there's Wayne's Audio (which has a UA-cam channel) that makes one at a "reasonable" price. As for VPI ; I've asked them and they told me that as long as the (thick) platter is 12 inches and there's an inch clearance all around, it could be used on other brands. From what I heard, the periphery ring seems to work better by bringing more evenness to the record... and it is so much more elegant than spindle clamps. Peace- Patrick
Hi Sky Captain! Great recommendations! Very helpful indeed. Yes, I wrote in the video description that the TTW in no longer available. My mistake. It is always a good product and some times it pops up in the used market. I did not know about Wayne's Audio. I checked and the ring clamps look fantastic. The only downside is that they are very heavy, 1.45Kg. My turntable accepts only 1Kg max for clamping.
Michell Engineering was the designer of the First Spindle Weight, but was refused a Patent. So other Companies started making them!
My
Old Ariston rd80 sl has a slightly concave platter and screw down clamp , so the record can be held as flat as possible .
It all depends on your preferences, but I didn’t like a clamp made out of delrin because I found it muted the “air” or stage of the recording. Thinking I’ll need to try a metal clamp, to match my metal platter.
Gracias, un gran aporte...
Gracias a ti Antonio!
Really nice explanation, thx
Hi. Great vid man! Love the detail. My question….regarding #3 Grip Spindle Clam. I have a REGA P3 and just received my Michell spindle clamp. When I drop it down on my spindle and lock it down like the one you have in your video, since my spindle spins when the platter is spinning, doesn’t that put stress on the motor?
No, it's so light and the locking is just coupling the platter to the record. Never tighten too much!
@@anadialog Ok. Thanks for the advice! What about the weight style Stabilizers? Do you recommend those?
I must admit that I have never experienced any benefits but I am sure it depends a lot from one's turntable
Try buying a metal door stop with a rubber ring around it... Less than €10 in France
I honestly have one or two records that have a minor warp to them and even then my technics sl-q30 is super forgiving in playing them with no noticible effect, and its about 36 years old.
Yes, its also a matter of coupling the record with the platter. I did not stress this enough.
I like the detail in many of your videos but since you go into such detail, I'm asking this as kindly as possible. When you address any camera (but especially... your own camera) be sure to keep your head from tilting back. Some viewers have commented about your camera being to high... but this isn't the real problem. Just do the following: Always keep your head level to the camera position because 1) - your nose raises and the viewers are forced to see "up your nose" and 2) - lights and computer screens reflect in you glasses. Just keep your head nice and level... The problem should be minimized and you'll find it makes you appear confident and secure in the information you are sharing. Keep up the good work!
Hi Dale, yes I had this problem for a while. I think now, in recent videos, things got better (at least I think so).
I found a 45RPM adapter made of aluminum, it’s just a little weight to flatten the upward curve of many disc, cheep and no motor damage ” likely”
Will a pressure weight be detrimental to a belt-driven record player like my Dual CS-529BT?
Will weight affect speed?
Is the weight bad for the engine and/or suspension?
Yes, there is a certain tolerance. I would go over 500/700g
In the 70's I couldnt afford a real record clamp/weight, but I came up with an inexpensive semi-effective clamp type solution. I found a small rubber electrical grommet at the hardware store with a hole in the center that was just a bit smaller than the spindle, you pushed the grommet down with a minimal force and it did actually pull the center of the record down and held it to the platter - how well this really worked I can only guess but I always felt like the bass sounded smoother and a bit more definition overall. Of course this could have just been wishful thinking until one day I ran across a product with this exact idea called 'the pig" that cost about $3.00 which I bought - its a little rubber piece that resembles a game piece from the old board game "Sorry". It did the same thing my electrical grommet did, fit snugly enough on the spindle so it held the record down tight and it was easily pulled off. I still have my "phono pig" but I also finally bought a couple of platter weights and so "the pig" and my grommet were both retired.
Should add screw on clamps such as Michell Orbe. Specific to TT with threaded spindle but more effective with warps than the pressure attachment only. Centre hub first raises the centre of disc slightly. More effective with dishing and edge warps.
I did! It's actually on the thumbnail of the video, only that its Nobsound but its identical and I also mentioned the Michell as well as the Clearaudio Twister. I actually did not recommend pressure clamps....are we talking about the same video? ;-)
So curious. If you clamp your record to the platter... would this promote any vibrations in the chassis? On the fence on this one. Thinking that you have to pick the best of the worst problem. Maybe solving a problem and creating another one.
After many years I must admit that clamps are useful on rare occasions, especially when warped towards the center otherwise if well designed and with mass they have a good stabilization function on mid-low quality models.
@@anadialog Probably will try them out in the end. Those fun little things. Have one of those Hudson antistatic brushes to attach to my Technics. Looking forward to seeing how that will work out.
I have Oracle tabĺes. The clamp simply screws onto the threaded spindle.
Cool!
WHEN YOU PUSH DOWN TO TIGHTEN CLAMP , DOES THAT HURT YOUR MOTOR BEARINGS ?
No, especially if using a belt drive. Its the weight added on the rotation...we are talking about over 1kg clamps...
what is a good clamp for the SL-1200 G
Pick the one you prefer! As stated in the instructions, do not exceed 1kg. I am currently using a clearaudio twister but also the Michell/Nobsoubd is great!
How do i find out how much extra weight my turntable could handle?
The only way is to check the manual or contact the manufacturer if still existent. Otherwise I would just remain under 500/700gr.
@@anadialog The one I have my eye on is 280 gr. Is that a waste of money or could it be sufficient for my TT?
It depends from your turntable and what function you're after (stabilizing, clamping etc.).
Obviously it takes more time to gain the correct speed if rotating mass is bigger, but bearings must be VERY bad, if you need much more power to maintain rotation speed when weight is added. Excuse my english.
You said a lot about clamps that may be hard on motors and nothing about problems that may happen to the bearing because of too much mass. I have a Linn LP12 and a lot of people say you shouldn't use a cramp on the LP12 but I do. It's of very low mass and it's made by KAB and it helps with the sound in a way that I like but I don't use it with all my LP's like 220 gr records the clamp is just not needed.
I did say not to exceed with weight usually 500/700g max but it depends from the TT.
I do think they probably help, but I'm not getting ripped for hundreds of dollars just to flatten my slightly warped record's! I'd just rather pick up a rock outside, or leave it as is, than do that! Don't get me wrong, I'm always looking to improve audio!
I'm just kidding about the rock, BTW !
:-)) I hear you man! In fact that is way I suggest a 40$ or less solution. I just wish they were still (effective) vacuum solutions...those would really help I think!
I don't think I could use a record clamp on my turntable. It's a Technics SL-5 linear tracking model. The motor/tracking arm is probably too low/close to the record. Interesting video, though.
A vacuum solution is the "best of the best" in terms of a clamping, but not in terms of a sound. As these require a rubber (silicon) slipmat, which is itself the worse choice imho (because a PVC/rubber margin creates a lot of reflections comparing to PVC/acryl or PVC/cork margins).
i have used a rubber fitting on my Revolver Black Ash turntable for many years.. & it came with my deck & is called a PIG.. this is great for playing my records as i have always used it.. but if someone can tell me that one of these Weight Clamps will do a better job then i will try one .. but until then i won't be wasting my money for show..
Cool! I agree. I finally purchased the sota reflex and I can say that it does help but very little. So little that it does not justify its price. Better off with the nob sound clamp!
Dude, my turntable has a sub chassis suspension on 3 springs, the spring adjustments accounts for the weight of my spindle clamp.
Hello. I'm looking to replace my 1 lb Sleeve City Record Weight with this clamp. I am curious as i found 2 other clamps on Amazon (Signstek and Nobsound) that are identical (but cheaper) to the Michell clamp. Would you have any thoughts on these? One person said they were cheap knock offs to the Michell clamp and weren't built as well.
Can you comment on this?
Thanks
Hi Craig, sorry if I am slow responding but as you can see the videos are interrupted until July since I am out of my country for work and it takes time to respond.
Actually, I did put in the video description the Nobsound. I must admit that I am only suggestion the function of these clamps. I have not owned them. Perhaps others who are reading can chime in and help? I think that these clamps are very simple and the quality of the materials are very much the same. I would go with the Nobsound without any doubt. I have a clearaudio twister but otherwise I would go with that one....give us some feedback if you decide to proceed!
The motor doesn’t deal with weight, it deals with friction and mass. Mass reduces the angular acceleration so the turntable takes longer to get up to the required angular velocity. Weight is a force that acts toward the centre of the Earth and is proportional to mass. The force will push the tip of the bearing spindle onto the thrust plate. The friction is a counterforce to the turning of the bearing by the motor the increased mass of a weighted puck would slightly increase friction on the bearing tip. The motor doesn’t see weight. It sees friction and inertia. Inertia is the tendency for an object to maintain a constant direction and velocity according to the applied force. There is no change in weight acting on the motor. Once the motor has experienced having to supply extra force needed to overcome inertia it turns at a constant speed supplying an equal but opposite force to the forces acting to slow the platter. As long as the driving force balances the counterforce the platter spins at the angular velocity that the motor and pulley ratio demand. The motor acts to top up the angular velocity as friction in the bearing tends to slow the platter.
Surprisingly the purpose of the clamp is not to flatten the vinyl. Clamps act primarily to dampen vibrations and that contributes to dynamic range by attenuating resonances out of the signal. It is not necessary or often possible to completely flatten the record. A warped record needs to be treated with a flattener to make it more playable. The Michell clamp comes with a felt washer to force the edges of the record onto the rim of the platter and ultimately, flattens the record surface onto the platter. The Michell clamp is probably the cheapest option that aims to flatten the record by design. It is fragile and will crack after a few uses. If they make an all metal version it might be a solution.
You need to demonstrate the effects clamps have on record playback and records. What does it look like? What positive effects are there? What negative effects are there? And give some before and after effects perhaps show waveform changes on recorded music on screen.
@@darinkidd9681 weight and mass are different. One is the amount of material in an object (mass) it doesn’t have a direction… it is not a force. It is constant regardless of where that object is in the universe. A force is a vector quantity it has direction and magnitude. Weight is measured in Newtons along a line connecting the centres of mass of two objects. We can relate mass and weight in terms of the accelerating force that the two masses generate because of each mass’s gravity.
On the surface of the Earth with its mass of nearly 6x10^24 kg, all normal objects are always several orders of magnitude less massive than the Earth so, the rate of acceleration of the Earth towards an object close to the ground because of that objects mass is several orders of magnitude less than the rate of acceleration of that object towards the relatively incredibly massive Earth. We always perceive objects as falling towards the ground if we raise them to a height.
So the force of gravity is a property of the mass of all objects, the greater the mass, the greater it’s gravity. The Earth has a gravitational force of about 9.81N/kg on objects that we lift up. That attraction is what we measure as weight.
force is proportional to acceleration
force is proportional to mass
Since the gravitational force is a constant 9.81N/kg close to the Earth
All objects accelerate to the surface of the Earth at the same rate per kg because F/m = a
so acceleration due to Earth gravity is 9.81 m/s^2
Consequently, since practically none of us venture off the planet to other planetary bodies with different masses to the Earth’s, we use weight (the force per kg of matter in Earth’s gravitational field), interchangeably with mass ( the amount of material in an object)…
I find the michell clamp took away a lot of the liveliness and hi frequency of my records on the technics 1200 mk2
There are really good POM spindle grip clamps on AE....they are like 20bucks.
IMPORTANT NOTE: a Michell clamp - or any spindle gripping clamp - DOES NOT WORK on a platter mat with a recessed label area. Since many mats have this feature (especially older/vintage types TT's) I think it's appropriate to incorporate this fact in this video. You CAN use one on mats of this type nevertheless, but you'll end up bending you're records outer edge upward. Which is something you don't want, obviously.
Hi Joris, I do not understand your comment. Mats with a recession are designed to host the record label. Once positioned a record with a label the surface is perfectly parallel and coupled with the platter. Therefore, the Michell and any other clamp will perfectly work without any problem....am I missing something?
Two exceptions here: 1 - most of these recessions in standard mats are way deeper than the thickness of a generic label, and 2 - modern pressings tend to have thinner labels than older records. Also, Michell clamps come with a felt washer that is meant to RAISE the middle of the record so you can press down avoiding this 'outer edge-rising'.
I understand but even if the thichness was different we are talking about microns. These wont harm a record in my opinion. This would be a problem with any clamp of a certain weight or locking mechanism, which means the vast mojority and also the only ones that really work...
Is the clamp offered with the E.A.T b-sharp turntable the type you recommand?
I don't know but I don't think so, looking at the pics...
@@anadialog ok i see. it might be the first type of clamp you talked about.
Having pitch problems is worse than burning your motor out - he literally said that :)
Heliopad Luna S 1223g 2.7lbs to heavy? for My JVC QL-Y66F?
you mean AJ Michelle not Mitchell? Plus they offer a solution for when the record is a bowl shape, what you could use on other clamps that is a felt ring what you place underneath the record. Not good to use a heavy weight as a clamp it causes bearing wear and excessive noise. [ I have an automated clamp I made built in and that isolates the noise even further that is to put some grooves or groove, in the spindle and put o-rings, rubber sheath in there, this isolates it from the record and you just pushed the record down and the top of the o-ring clamps it down in most cases. © All rights received not to be used for commercial use 2002/30/9.]
Yes, my pronunciation was wrong! Apologies. Cool solution you have there!
I'm not certain of any scientific reason why a weight or clamp would have any beneficial effects on the playback of a vinyl recording. I suggest performing a double-blind test to determine if any difference can reliably be discerned. Any other type of comparison test will lead the listener to "hear" a difference if he or she see when the weight or clamp is being used and I'm sure the 60 dollar weight is going to sound better than the 30 dollar version -- maybe twice as good? My turntable is a Technics SL-110 direct drive with an SME 3009 Series II improved tonearm which handles warped records without a problem -- no rumble or pitch fluctuations at all. However, eccentrically pressed records will cause pitch fluctuations with each revolution which become more audible as the centermost grooves are reached owing to the greater percentage of speed error occurring under the stylus. No clamp or weight will do anything to correct that; only a replacement pressing -- or, better yet, a compact disc which will produce perfect pitch accuracy. Being a classical music lover, this problem occurred quite frequently -- particularly noticeable with music having long and sustained passages and I had to return one out of every four or five LPs when I was still collecting them. Also, pre and post echo problems were audible with many carelessly mastered LPs. I assume these problems still plague LP records.
I don't support the idea of adding weight as a solution to this issue, because most platter main bearings use a ball and flat as the fulcrum for the spindle, because the ball on a flat has the smallest possible contact area , resulting in less drag and better sound. it does concentrate a lot of weight into a small area, so adding additional weight would seem a poor mechanical decision, even if increasing the vinyl contact area through this added mass might sound better right away. Another consideration is that a lot of direct drive platters use a horizontal ball bearing ring as the main bearing, a lazy Susan type of deal, and adding a lot of weight onto multiple balls is not going to help keep them from adding to the sonic signature of the mechanism.
Also, a warped record is really a separate issue from playback, although a flat surface is critical to the results. adding weight around the spindle area probably isn't going to deform much vinyl, unless you add a lot, and the vinyl is very thin. the concept behind these devices is to help the vinyl surface better mate to the platter, so the mechanical energy imparted into the vinyl during playback has someplace else to go , rather than just rattling around in the vinyl disk and perhaps reflecting energy back into the playback groove, smearing the details. Which returns us as to why the record masters are cut while being held in place with a vacuum, when a great lump of weight in the center would certainly be easier and cheaper. Heck they could put a twenty ton hydraulic press on the center area, if simply adding mass around the center area was the answer to better sound.
While cutting lathes use vacuum to hold the mastering disk in place, to me, such complexity is moire suitable to a business with a maintenance staff, and for home use, most people have to install the vacuum pumps in another room , as those pumps are not known as quiet devices.
"Clearaudio Twister Record Clamp" and "Record Doctor Record Clamp" look very similar.
Why they have such a different price?
Good point. They are identical from what I see. Clearaudio is always very expensive. In any case the principle is the same so the Nobsound clamp is just as good...and its flat!
There is only one !AVID !
Michell invented the screw record clamp, everyone else were expensive copies.
LOL... A Lot of them have Liquids inside... The Liquid is thinned Snake Oil mostly... And make a Vacuum in your Wallet...
But - don`t take me wrong - a little Weight on the Platter does not kill your Bearing, but can actually increase the quality of the Sound.
But more important than all this, the Mastering of your Record has much mor effect to the Quality of the Vinyl than everything Else. A Proper Turntable is all you need. ;-)
Of course...but that is only the starting point. I suggest to improve this approach. If I had stopped tweaking and upgrading my system I would have probably abandoned this passion or simply folded on Mp3 like most do, which is not a problem. Not everyone is interested in a faithfull reproduction I do because it emotions me. If I don't get emotioned, the music is without its soul and just a mere resemblance of its true beauty and power.
Shame that a lot of modern pressings are warped including some Mobile Fidelity pressings. I’ve been buying LP’s since the eighties and I get a much higher percentage of warped records these days.
True...
your video and explanations is very good, but let me tell my point of view about this item, I don't like to touch any part of the plate and spindle, because the gap or clearance precision given on the machinery lathe to built this partes is so delicate, many people can say, "Hey Gus you are exaggerating, nothing happen" yes, but if we worry about the best audio performances in reproduction by your $, is so important to take care if you touche those parts, the plate and the spindle, in this case this clamp you need to handle or manipulating with some pressure on the spindle, with very imprecise movements that can damage that parts, not to the extent of being unusable, but in this case you add more imprecision and it traduce in noise! I prefer a clamp just with balance weight, that you only place it without exerting pressures with imprecision, and the ring clamp, yes I know is more expensive, but it worth it!
I refer to the kind of Michelle turntable clamp, which is adjustable or simple pressure
I understand tour point. I cam only say that most of the best reviewers out there use this method. In the end I must admit that I do not notice much of a difference so your position may be correct afterall.
I don't use weights................they wear out bearings and motor .
There was another solution in the seventies/eighties , at that time attention was drawn to the mat ........I forgot the name of the mat but it was sometrhing like silicone that sucked the whole record to its surface .............this worked way better than clamps , I used it on ST7 linear tracking TT............and the results were asthonishing ( with the V15III )........
Decoupling from the platter and sucked to the mat .........the only platter mat that is genius and I use today is the copper platter from Micro Seiki.........and a spindle clamp. No it does NOT sopund metallic...........just the inverse with revealing many microdynamics and tonal colors usual hidden in the recording
It's in the video! (Notice "suction" in the title) Always watch until the end ;-)
@@anadialog It's not suction but the material that makes an adhesion with the vinyl ...indeed Guido , watching to the end !
They should sell industrial grade compressors with LPs, LOL!
RECORD for the most dumbass comment ever! See what I did there? The "record"?
Can't you lower the camera a bit. It's very disconcerting looking at your throat instead of your eyes.n
You are right. The new vids have a different angle!
Sota Nova with a Reflex clamp and vacuum. WTG.
Yeah! Is that your setup?
yes mate.
Winbo! But then please share with us your experience with vacuum suction...is it worth it? Have you tried with and without suction? Give us some info on the pros and cons!
First off, this is with warped records only.Bass is more accurate and detailed. Pace and timing are better. Noise floor is lower because the warp isnt amplified. The amplifier has more power as it is not amplifying the warp.Works better with Convex warps instead of concave, so badly warped records are flattened out on one side but not the other sometimes. My vinyl connection is generally in very good condition anyway. I regularly change the position my favourite albums are in. This can defeat warping.
Thanks!
Typology is a word. Go ahead and use it.
Topology refers to a branch of mathematics related to geometry and set theory.
Never used 'topology"... :-)
Emmm , All DJs look away especially me last night cough lol
Direct drives have a fixed spindle on the motor. There the Clearaudio grip clamp is dangerous for the motor!!!
It's the same principle of the Michell, Nobsound and Sota. Used it for years on several direct drive turntables. Never had a problem. It couples the record with the platter, which is already spinning together with the spindle. Nothing is changing with this type of clamp.
These are essentially novelties exploiting men who fixate on "improving" vinyl lp playback. Thinking critically, how much can weight placed dead center improve warping over the entire surface?
Not much in fact....that is why I discussed of different solutions in the video...there are also some benefits on the rotation stability...
Definitely to a certain degree. Which is an improvement over no center weight. It also helps dampen vibrations in the vinyl itself during playback.
Clamps are NOT designed for warping. They are designed for vibration dampening.
Actually both!
No puedo suscribirme pues el vídeo está en inglés...saludos cordiales
WTF? Weights and clamps on your records? Surely that's gonna cause drag? More audiophile snake oil! What happens when you fumble it and drop it on the vinyl or the turntable- ouch! Why not just get a rock and sit it on top? A fool and his money is easily parted... anyone wanna buy a castle in Scotland going cheap?
What do you think about the Clearaudio Clever Clamp?
Not strong enough...and it does not have any stabilizing effects...
The videos offer good information, but English as your second language as well as a lack of organization of the video makes it way to long for you to make a point. This could have been a ten minute video. May I mention using a rough script or at least an outline.
I say this because your videos ARE informative. If they weren't, I wouldn't bother. :)
Thanks Rob, I apprechiate your suggestions. It is hard for me to perfection the passages because I have vwey little time...literally...I need that hour with the house empy to do a vid and trust me it is very rare...I will try to optimize in any case, peehpas with a lower number of vids...
@@anadialog I hate that there is no way to "private reply" on youtube. Your videos all have interesting and useful information.
Check out the presslift from mindpoprevolution.com
As a native speaker, I formally apologize for how many silly rules and exceptions english has.
🤣🤣🤣
That's correct, Sir.
Don't attempt to try
this on a belt driven
turntable.
Depends. As the weight is mostly concentrated in the center of the record, there's not much inertia added on the periphery of the platter. And you can even give it a little swing, your hand on the "knob", to help it start. That's what we do with a lot of hi-end, hi-mass platter turntables anyway. I'd worry more about the spindle itself.
@@dirtyths I have a Duel 1228 and always start it in motion by hand before swinging the arm over to start the motor, it just makes sense.
6:13:“ I can‘t say I’ve ever tried one, but I‘ m shure it does have positive effects.“
At this point I knew: not systematically analysed experience, pure fairy tales. Time waste.
Hi Astra, Yes, I am always honest and I am not going to claim fake experience. Nevertheless, I am bringing experience over other clamps. I am also convinced, actually it appears logic, that if I have a warped record, a peripheral clamp will have positive effects as claimed. Don't you think? Moreover, I think a video can present some aspects and opinions and report experience on others. The important is to declare so. I am not that sure that everyone does that. If I am looking for science I am certainly not going to use UA-cam. Anyway, thank you for watching and posting your comment.
ana[dia]log Hi ana(dia)log. Thanks for your immediate answer. I hope I have not offended you with the wording (time waste). It's my concern that not the viewer but you are about to waste time. That is the case, when your gathered experience does not result in any knowledge about the iissue. And the issue is: which sonic deficiencies has a turntable without fixing the record to the platter and what kind of possibilities exist to overcome such deficiencies.
Of course a warped record can only be flattended by an outer ring and a central clamp or weight. I do not play any warped record and I don't buy them. Sadly the whole production of ttw is off.
The object of a turntable is a mechano-electrical conversion. 50 percent of the task is the absolute time correct reproduction in form of an constant speed. And it's the record, not the platter. The other 50 percent are done by converting the microscopic form variations of the groove ( we're talking about micrometers) into a microscopic current. The horizontal position of the turntable is a necessary prerequisite.
Off centerered records can not be recentered by any of the mentioned means. Nakamichi once solved this problem and no other company in the whole self called high end cult didn't even try to adress this problem. They are not willing or not able, and they don't talk about it.
What's next: it's necessary to avoid any relative movement between platter and record. Any speed variations between platter and record must result in unwanted pitch variations. So it is logical to avoid such deviations by connecting platter and record. But with which amount of force? Of course with the lowest necessary. So a clamp might be the best solution. It does probably not alter the form of the record. Probably! No manufacturer mention this question.
There are numerous different weights in offer. A few of them are variable. This invites to endless hours of weight changing.
Some of the most expensive turntables offer a "system" consisting of a platter mat and weight/clamp solution. But none is depicting a rationale behind . You always hear the common nonsense of tight bass, clearer midrange and airier hights. Wider soundstage, more dynamics, blah, blah blah. Is there a relative movement between the platter and the record? Get a felt marker, mark record and mat and play. If both marks are unchanged after playing the whole side, there is no relative movement. Compare a slip mat with a rubber mat. Every Technics owner can do that.
Resonances. Resonances are not nice, if they lead to an audible difference. You know resonances. Switch the amplifier off and play the record. What do you hear? Music, not sweet sweet music, but music. It's the cartridge, or is it the record surface? The whole energy that emanates this sound is lost. This vibration cannot be converted into current. Try, if you can reduce it with clamp, weight or peripheral ring.
The record: preechoes. The needle is running in the first groove, the microphone is on, the orchestra hasn't begin to play but you hear the third bar very silent. And that is happening throughout the complete recording, with every lp you ever bought. You're not listening to two channels, but to four, you lucky son of a bitch. Double the value (sarcasm mode off). The solution: better vinyl and more distance between the grooves (thicker groove walls). This is perhaps the only advantage of 45 recordings.
In short: science is cumbersome, frustrating and expensive. But don't let yourself be seduced to muddle plausible assumptions with sound knowledge.
Whoa! Now that is an articulated comment! Thank you for sharing your experience. As I always say, this needs to be a DIALOG, not a monolog and I am ready to learn from all of you out there!
No offense taken, thank you for saying that.
The fact that most TT are off is very interesting...and worrying!
Ok, I understand that you do not like assumptions and generally speaking I agree. But again, I was illustrating what was on the market or made in the past (I would love to test the Audio-Technica suction products but that is now impossible! Not for the price but because the rubber of these gizmos is consumed and melting. What I wanted to communicate is that a simple threaded clamp can grip and press the record down flatter (not flat) at a decent price (with the right models), without stressing the motor. Along the road Iike to give some insight on the similar or parallel products. If I need to test everything before going on air it would take ages and tons of money for just a mediocre help in the end. As I said, the important is to cite the sources and state what has been tested or not. That is IF you decide to comment on it. Thanks again for your info!
ana[dia]log regarding the circumstances of video production I totally accept your statement. What I wanted to bring to mind is: before you change anything be aware of what you want to approach.
Michell (mishel) not Mitchel
20 MINUTES TO LONG
I know! I always end up doing long videos and when I start I promise my self to be quick! I do cover a lot of clamps and types though...that does take time...
ana[dia]log ...in my opinion 20 minutes is not too long. You also do not need to apologise for using the word typology. Thank you for the informative content!
No,no. Not too long! Now I have fool information about clamps! Really,thanks for you video!
Thank you!
Bro, clamping the record kills the musicality of music. The restricts the movements of the tone arm and record, clamping the record made the record sounds dull and the music sounds dead.
Too many unnecessary words and useless facts.
Write a script ... and then ... edit it!!!
Sure...are you paying?! ;-)
vacuum clamping is the best of the best? that means you are using your eyes more than your ears to judge
put it simple : SUCTION SUCKS
Can you explain why you think so?
@@anadialog try not to look too much at the appearance, rather focus on the sound, if you are not sure about the difference try to get someon's help to do a blind test
Goran, I have no idea why think I am focusing on appearance (which appearance? it's invisible!). I have listen to suction turntables and they are simply amazing. The subtle detail that they deliver its unmatchable. Again, why do you say it sucks? Focus on my question and not on your suppositions.
@@anadialog I have been using record players with suction for 15 years, sound without suction is significantly more lively. sometimes I turn on suction a little bit to deal with heavily warped records
Thanks for the answer. May I ask why you think this is so? How can it worsen the sound, in your opinion? These are not rethoric questions. I am genuinely interested...
Records Suck, thats why I stopped listening to them in 1979...
Hummm...and though you watch videos in them...
I'll buy your records :)