I own many guitars including x braced Taylors. I bought the V-class version of the 812ce 12 fret deluxe. It’s not like any other guitar I’ve played in my 55 years of guitar playing. Definitely less bass thump. Bass notes sort of sustain however like the bass keys on our Piano. Also the sustain, chime, and perfectly in tune notes and chords up the neck are mesmerizing. I love playing it and enjoy the way the bass notes continue to sustain while playing chords. These two guitars are both great, but completely different creatures. The V class is, however really fun to play and, of course, has made me want to become a better musician.
Sounds like a wonderful guitar. The cedar top, I would expect would produce a deeper, warmer, less bright sound. I love the sound of cedar top guitars. Taylor’s are great guitars and the advanced technology makes them even better. The ability to easily reset the neck appeals to me, since I have watched many guitars age and become difficult to adjust.
@@James62652 thanks for the response. Your 55 years of experience is reassuring. I've listened to the demos on taylors website and this guitar sounds great. Have fun with your 812!
I'll bet this is true! But I can confirm, to that affect, that the x bracing is excellence as well. took reception of my 712e 12 fret from 2015. got it in the sunburst-ish pattern. It's Sitka/rosewood rather than lutz and it lacks a lot of the accoutrement that the newer taylor 700's have... but it sounds like an angel singing to her older brother...he 812. and it's doing a pretty good job! it's gorgeous instrument!
@@matteo-nf1kv This 512 is the Taylor that sounds so nice after listening to a lot of models. Not within my budget yet. Would love to read your experiences on the 512 if you het one.
Glad I came across this video. I bought a 562ce early on, when they had X-bracing. Later they changed to V-bracing for that model. I was thinking I screwed up by buying early, but now that I here these I think I prefer the X-bracing. So maybe I actually lucked out. Of course, mine is a 12 string, so it is a bit different.
I almost could not get past the opening playing of Heart of Gold on such a thin sounding small body guitar. This model really shines with fingerstyle playing as comes out later in the video. The V bracing system adds a bit more bass which is a good thing at this size. Good demo explaining the differences between the two models.
Stellar comparison. I can certainly hear the nuances between bracings. If Taylor has replaced X with V, does that mean X prices on the used market will decrease because they're obsolete, or increase because they're prized? When playing with accompaniment, such as in a band, can anyone really hear the differences between V and X? I think the latter is a resounding "no." As for the former, I just bought a mint 2013 712ce wsb for $1600 because I think the sellar feared X prices are plummeting. My opinion about X vs V: although it's 100% marketing and to keep overpaid Taylor employees busy, Taylor guitars to my ears are overly bright. I sold my old 414ce for that very reason and went to Martin, now I'm back to Taylor and still trim the treble to not be brighter than my electrics, but the V cranks the brilliance to beyond 11. Concerning the new V 712ce, no more sunburst and no neck binding. To Taylor's credit, a new 712ce is $3200, whereas nine years ago were $3900.
And so?? What do you think about the differences between the two models? Are you still satisfied with your X-braced guitar or do you prefer the V-class instrument?
@@1funkybasslady Hi. Sorry for the delay. I haven't yet had opportunity to play a V class model, and this video is the only meaningful (to me) A/B comparison I've seen. From what I've heard from Taylor, reviewers & buyers, there are 4 aspects to consider: tone, sustain, volume & intonation. I haven't come across much opinion on projection so I won't say any more on that. A common view seems to be that the V class has, or is supposed to have, more volume and sustain, and better intonation. So, the differences I hear, from this video (on headphones) alone, are as follows. Tonally, it seemed that overall the X brace has a stronger bass response, leading to a fuller and warmer tone, with possibly the mids being a little stronger too. I heard no difference in volume. I don't think the comparison provided the opportunity to perceive differences in sustain or intonation (for me at least). I would just mention that the sustain on my X brace model is so good I don't really see much point in wanting an 812ce 12fret DLX with any more sustain, though I suppose I could change my mind on that after playing a V class. And finally, I should point out that my opinion on the tonal differences is purely subjective, as everybody's senses react differently to this.
The X bracing actually projected the sound better than the V? Which is quite confusing now. I assume both guitars were demonstrated with the identical strings and amps? Wow, I was ready to "pull the trigger" on the 812ce dlx. V bracing until I saw this comparison😲
V braced guitar sounds weak! PLEASE READ THIS! First of all V bracing patterns have been used and tried by many luthiers for years albeit in many variations, but basically the main V braces...it is nothing new. Having compared many Taylor V class guitars there are some drawbacks...placing so many braces within the largest vibrating part of the bout can mute some of the frequency vibrations patterns. The Taylor bracing change when measured for displacement, velocity, and acceleration did show some degradation in the lower bout vibration patterns as compared to X pattern bracing. Sustain was sometimes increased only in certain examples. We found no further accuracy of intonation due to V bracing vs X bracing. Notes high on the neck were not perceived to be any more forthcoming, clearer or vibrant as stated here. We did find that some guitars in both V and X bracing due to wood selection and builders had superior up the neck clarity and resonance, but only as I said due to wood grains and torrification treatments. We tested several top brands, which included Martin, Taylor, Eastman, Yari, Yamaha, Mc Pherson, Goodall, Bourgeois and Breedlove and a few other small luthiers examples. I surmise that Taylors need to change there bracing pattern may have to do with business and not so much about making a better guitar. It appears that the V class bracing is also less expensive to manufacture mechanically. Taylor's have always been known for a sort of vanilla tone due to it's manufacturing process. And, that much of the information spoken here is the interpretation of a dream that one man has. The addition of inspiration from the ocean probably has nothing to do with the scenario. By the way when CF Martin started experimenting with fan bracing back in the 1840's he had moved several of the braces according to the Spanish style fan bracing into a Vs both reversing the V at the top and bottom to accommodate the new style bridge pin design, settling on the X brace pattern which he surmised sounded better freeing up the top, also adding strength to the top. If you watch the Martin Museum Tour right here at 7.12 minutes you can see one of his experimental V braced tops on the workbench from the 1800's! Finally, I urge all of you to do your own comparisons not on You Tube, but only in person with reasonably like woods, sizes and environments braced with Taylor V and other X braced guitars to see what you feel.
super Vergleich! Danke! Und ich bin froh, dass ich meine 812 12-fret DLX mit X-Bracing (2017er Modell) habe: habe mich in die Gitarre beim Anspielen im Laden verliebt, unglaublich charaktervoll, das kommt hier beim Klangvergleich auch schön raus. Die Gitarre kann so ziemlich alles, was ich von ner Akustikgitarre erwarte.
i know, right? it might not be that popular an opinion, but in several of the instances in this video I kind of dig the less twangy tone... maybe they both have their high points eh? not like either one sounds foul~
@@matteo-nf1kv it's really hard to say, they're both nice but I do kind of dig the twang of the old original brace. Then again, I don't have many complaints about either frankly
@@matteo-nf1kv I actually just put an offer in on a 712 from 2017 which has the standard x bacing, so I guess I like it enough to put my money where my mouth is. On paper it's pretty similar to the 812, lacking some of the appointments.
@@matteo-nf1kv yeah, that's the one I'm thinking of. There is a nice nice nice looking one on reverb right now that appears to be a special model that is all mahogany too. I'm not sure how that top change would help or hurt fingerstyle. I know cedar is pretty rich.
V sounds a little scooped. Definitely more lows and highs. More articulation. But even though the V has more lows, I feel the X has a fuller and warmer mids. Less articulation / attack so sounds smoother too. Maybe even a bit muddy. The V sounds more like what I imagine a Taylor to sound like which is funny considering its a relatively new development I can see people negatively calling the V as "tinny" or the X as "boxy" or "muddy". On the other end, I can see people calling the V as "airy" and "open" while the X is more "vocal" and "sweet"
X bracing produces scooped sound distribution - strong bass and treble, very weak mids. V bracing sound distribution produces almost all mids, very weak bass and treble.
X-Bracing sounds far more beautiful and really full of character, than the new V-Bracing, which feels very thin and fragile. Sorry to say this... Thank you for your outstanding presentation!
Definitely prefer the X bracing. The V bracing emasculates the guitar. X braced model is much fuller sounding AND to me it has more sustain than the V braced guitar. I want one of these beautiful 12-fret guitars, but I think now that Taylor has made the transition to the "V Class" bracing it is going to be very difficult to find an X braced model. Too bad!
I have the 812ce non-V Class and it sounds more organic than the V. I almost want to say the V Class sounds like some laminated I’ve played. Still nice but more sterile.
Throughout the history of acoustic steel string guitars the 12-fret models have commonly had slotted head stocks. It has to do with the break angle of the strings across the nut providing more vibration into the neck. Add to that the lowered position of the bridge more toward the center of the lower bout, and you have a fuller sound with more low end and more sustain. BTW...if you examine a classical guitar, it too has the bridge lower on the body in addition to having the slotted head stock. Again, this provides better vibration of the wood - top and neck - to produce a full sound and better bass response in a small body guitar.
X brace is my preference. Fuller sound across the spectrum; V class is more sterile. Thanks for putting the comparison up.
What a superb comparison. Well done PMTV.
I own many guitars including x braced Taylors. I bought the V-class version of the 812ce 12 fret deluxe. It’s not like any other guitar I’ve played in my 55 years of guitar playing. Definitely less bass thump. Bass notes sort of sustain however like the bass keys on our Piano. Also the sustain, chime, and perfectly in tune notes and chords up the neck are mesmerizing. I love playing it and enjoy the way the bass notes continue to sustain while playing chords. These two guitars are both great, but completely different creatures. The V class is, however really fun to play and, of course, has made me want to become a better musician.
I want a cedar/mahagony 512ce 12 fret. Do you think it will be a nice guitar?
Sounds like a wonderful guitar. The cedar top, I would expect would produce a deeper, warmer, less bright sound. I love the sound of cedar top guitars. Taylor’s are great guitars and the advanced technology makes them even better. The ability to easily reset the neck appeals to me, since I have watched many guitars age and become difficult to adjust.
@@James62652 thanks for the response. Your 55 years of experience is reassuring. I've listened to the demos on taylors website and this guitar sounds great. Have fun with your 812!
I'll bet this is true! But I can confirm, to that affect, that the x bracing is excellence as well. took reception of my 712e 12 fret from 2015. got it in the sunburst-ish pattern. It's Sitka/rosewood rather than lutz and it lacks a lot of the accoutrement that the newer taylor 700's have... but it sounds like an angel singing to her older brother...he 812. and it's doing a pretty good job! it's gorgeous instrument!
@@matteo-nf1kv This 512 is the Taylor that sounds so nice after listening to a lot of models. Not within my budget yet. Would love to read your experiences on the 512 if you het one.
Taylor guitars just keep getting better, I have run out of amazement, The best in the market.
wow, I like the projection of the V-Bracing... I want one of those!
Glad I came across this video. I bought a 562ce early on, when they had X-bracing. Later they changed to V-bracing for that model. I was thinking I screwed up by buying early, but now that I here these I think I prefer the X-bracing. So maybe I actually lucked out. Of course, mine is a 12 string, so it is a bit different.
whats the difference ?
I almost could not get past the opening playing of Heart of Gold on such a thin sounding small body guitar. This model really shines with fingerstyle playing as comes out later in the video. The V bracing system adds a bit more bass which is a good thing at this size. Good demo explaining the differences between the two models.
I am confused, as i can literally the the V bracing when you have noted it is the X. Has the labelling on the video been done backwards?
Stellar comparison. I can certainly hear the nuances between bracings. If Taylor has replaced X with V, does that mean X prices on the used market will decrease because they're obsolete, or increase because they're prized? When playing with accompaniment, such as in a band, can anyone really hear the differences between V and X? I think the latter is a resounding "no." As for the former, I just bought a mint 2013 712ce wsb for $1600 because I think the sellar feared X prices are plummeting. My opinion about X vs V: although it's 100% marketing and to keep overpaid Taylor employees busy, Taylor guitars to my ears are overly bright. I sold my old 414ce for that very reason and went to Martin, now I'm back to Taylor and still trim the treble to not be brighter than my electrics, but the V cranks the brilliance to beyond 11. Concerning the new V 712ce, no more sunburst and no neck binding. To Taylor's credit, a new 712ce is $3200, whereas nine years ago were $3900.
Like 50% of ppl despite the V bracing so an old Taylor with X bracing will be an asset
Thanks for the great comparison. Now I have some idea how my identical model with X bracing tonally compares with its younger sister.
And so?? What do you think about the differences between the two models? Are you still satisfied with your X-braced guitar or do you prefer the V-class instrument?
@@1funkybasslady Hi. Sorry for the delay.
I haven't yet had opportunity to play a V class model, and this video is the only meaningful (to me) A/B comparison I've seen.
From what I've heard from Taylor, reviewers & buyers, there are 4 aspects to consider: tone, sustain, volume & intonation. I haven't come across much opinion on projection so I won't say any more on that. A common view seems to be that the V class has, or is supposed to have, more volume and sustain, and better intonation.
So, the differences I hear, from this video (on headphones) alone, are as follows. Tonally, it seemed that overall the X brace has a stronger bass response, leading to a fuller and warmer tone, with possibly the mids being a little stronger too. I heard no difference in volume. I don't think the comparison provided the opportunity to perceive differences in sustain or intonation (for me at least).
I would just mention that the sustain on my X brace model is so good I don't really see much point in wanting an 812ce 12fret DLX with any more sustain, though I suppose I could change my mind on that after playing a V class.
And finally, I should point out that my opinion on the tonal differences is purely subjective, as everybody's senses react differently to this.
The X bracing actually projected the sound better than the V? Which is quite confusing now. I assume both guitars were demonstrated with the identical strings and amps? Wow, I was ready to "pull the trigger" on the 812ce dlx. V bracing until I saw this comparison😲
litening you i like x brace tone more than v brace, something is missing in v bracw
V braced guitar sounds weak!
PLEASE READ THIS!
First of all V bracing patterns have been used and tried by many luthiers for
years albeit in many variations, but basically the main V braces...it is
nothing new. Having compared many Taylor V class guitars there are
some drawbacks...placing so many braces within the largest vibrating
part of the bout can mute some of the frequency vibrations patterns. The
Taylor bracing change when measured for displacement, velocity, and
acceleration did show some degradation in the lower bout vibration
patterns as compared to X pattern bracing. Sustain was sometimes
increased only in certain examples. We found no further accuracy of
intonation due to V bracing vs X bracing. Notes high on the neck were
not perceived to be any more forthcoming, clearer or vibrant as stated
here. We did find that some guitars in both V and X bracing due to wood
selection and builders had superior up the neck clarity and resonance,
but only as I said due to wood grains and torrification treatments. We
tested several top brands, which included Martin, Taylor, Eastman, Yari,
Yamaha, Mc Pherson, Goodall, Bourgeois and Breedlove and a few other
small luthiers examples. I surmise that Taylors need to change there
bracing pattern may have to do with business and not so much about
making a better guitar. It appears that the V class bracing is also less
expensive to manufacture mechanically. Taylor's have always been known
for a sort of vanilla tone due to it's manufacturing process. And,
that much of the information spoken here is the interpretation of a
dream that one man has. The addition of inspiration from the ocean
probably has nothing to do with the scenario. By the way when CF Martin
started experimenting with fan bracing back in the 1840's he had moved
several of the braces according to the Spanish style fan bracing into a
Vs both reversing the V at the top and bottom to accommodate the new
style bridge pin design, settling on the X brace pattern which he
surmised sounded better freeing up the top, also adding strength to the
top. If you watch the Martin Museum Tour right here at 7.12 minutes you
can see one of his experimental V braced tops on the workbench from the
1800's! Finally, I urge all of you to do your own comparisons not on
You Tube, but only in person with reasonably like woods, sizes and
environments braced with Taylor V and other X braced guitars to see what
you feel.
super Vergleich! Danke! Und ich bin froh, dass ich meine 812 12-fret DLX mit X-Bracing (2017er Modell) habe: habe mich in die Gitarre beim Anspielen im Laden verliebt, unglaublich charaktervoll, das kommt hier beim Klangvergleich auch schön raus. Die Gitarre kann so ziemlich alles, was ich von ner Akustikgitarre erwarte.
Not sure if it’s popular opinion but I prefer the X brace guitar.
i know, right? it might not be that popular an opinion, but in several of the instances in this video I kind of dig the less twangy tone... maybe they both have their high points eh? not like either one sounds foul~
@@matteo-nf1kv it's really hard to say, they're both nice but I do kind of dig the twang of the old original brace. Then again, I don't have many complaints about either frankly
@@matteo-nf1kv I actually just put an offer in on a 712 from 2017 which has the standard x bacing, so I guess I like it enough to put my money where my mouth is. On paper it's pretty similar to the 812, lacking some of the appointments.
@@matteo-nf1kv that's the mahogany series right? those are gorgeous.
@@matteo-nf1kv yeah, that's the one I'm thinking of. There is a nice nice nice looking one on reverb right now that appears to be a special model that is all mahogany too. I'm not sure how that top change would help or hurt fingerstyle. I know cedar is pretty rich.
so the old X-Bracing is coming out with the new arm rest reset too? could not follow on that .
X-Bracing has more character, low end and over tones to my ears. V-Bracing is clinical and clean sounding.
V sounds a little scooped. Definitely more lows and highs. More articulation.
But even though the V has more lows, I feel the X has a fuller and warmer mids. Less articulation / attack so sounds smoother too. Maybe even a bit muddy.
The V sounds more like what I imagine a Taylor to sound like which is funny considering its a relatively new development
I can see people negatively calling the V as "tinny" or the X as "boxy" or "muddy". On the other end, I can see people calling the V as "airy" and "open" while the X is more "vocal" and "sweet"
X wins!
X bracing produces scooped sound distribution - strong bass and treble, very weak mids. V bracing sound distribution produces almost all mids, very weak bass and treble.
X-Bracing sounds far more beautiful and really full of character, than the new V-Bracing, which feels very thin and fragile. Sorry to say this...
Thank you for your outstanding presentation!
Give me X-Bracing all day long! Meaty and punchy, sweet and bell-like. The V sounds cheap in comparison.
Definitely prefer the X bracing. The V bracing emasculates the guitar. X braced model is much fuller sounding AND to me it has more sustain than the V braced guitar. I want one of these beautiful 12-fret guitars, but I think now that Taylor has made the transition to the "V Class" bracing it is going to be very difficult to find an X braced model. Too bad!
I choose the V-class bracing model.
G natural
The X brace is way better than V brace.
I have the 812ce non-V Class and it sounds more organic than the V. I almost want to say the V Class sounds like some laminated I’ve played. Still nice but more sterile.
X Brace sounds like a Martin. I want my Martin to sound like a martin and my taylor to sound like a taylor
That spanish-style headstock is confusing. I always thought you needed nylon strings for that kind of guitar 👀
Throughout the history of acoustic steel string guitars the 12-fret models have commonly had slotted head stocks. It has to do with the break angle of the strings across the nut providing more vibration into the neck. Add to that the lowered position of the bridge more toward the center of the lower bout, and you have a fuller sound with more low end and more sustain. BTW...if you examine a classical guitar, it too has the bridge lower on the body in addition to having the slotted head stock. Again, this provides better vibration of the wood - top and neck - to produce a full sound and better bass response in a small body guitar.
🤗❤🌹
V class is better in a mix