I’m literally crying, I Love God but I feel so bad for those who are not meat to receive his Glory. I don’t deserve anything more than anyone in this Earth. It hurts to say that I am grateful for God salvation.
Let not you hearts be troubled. I used to feel the same. I was scared for people (family) that they might go to hell. What I found is God loves all of us (Humanity), died for us to show us that he loves us and he will not let us be lost sheep forever. All will be saved (as a matter of destiny). He came to save the world 🌎. God has put me at ease, I am free from that evil doctrine of hell. Peace my brethren.
It scares me that my heart is grieving over this, because I still love God and absolutely acknowledge that He is sovereign and knows better than I. I do not want to be worldly in my thinking or prideful as if I know better. Praying for you all to have comfort in this as well.
It sounds like you are a really good, caring person. Is it good to love a god who burns people forever just because that god "claims" to be good? If a good god gave you a mind it should be OK to use it. Don't be afraid to think critically about your faith.
@@philipmunson3369. Who are you O man that repliest against God? Can the thing formed say unto the Him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus? God is free to do anything he wants, sin is so wicked that it deserves eternal punishment. Human minds cannot grasp the seriousness of sin, neither can it grasp the holiness of God. If you sin you have sinned against an Almighty Holy God, you are deserving of hell. Please humble yourself, I used to think hell was just too much, but then as I meditated on how wicked sin it I began to realise God's punishment is good and just.
People. Some things just are not meant for us to understand. Our little brains cannot measure up to God’s thought process. That’s why we just pray that HIS will be done. If you read this comment and you’re lost, just please, Surrender your life to Christ. He is calling you out of death and to a life of eternity spent with Him. Life is too short to “have fun” and to keep sinning and fall straight into hell. Love God, Trust God and His Word, with all your heart; and You, will live. His will be done. Amen.
Our brains and hearts can know some things about God, and we know them by His word. May you find the biblical freedom to reject that which denies what kind of God He is, according to His word, and freedom from false teaching about His word.
KT, I wasnt deliberately not responding.....anyway.... ..its our fault or Esaus fault simply becasue God said it was......we are created beings.. ..n you are right about church membership plummeting.. ..no one wants God..
I believe GOD saves people for himself,and the others are left to their own devices.some will be saved most won’t.its their choice.if you are predetermined to be saved,you are part of a royal priesthood. The ones that won’t be saved make their own choices in life.it’s just a theory. JER.17,9.”THE HEART OF MAN IS DESPERATELY WICKED AND DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS”
..psst rocket man......one doesnt surrender their life to jesus to be saved.. ..one believes on Jesus to be saved.. ..n it's not difficult to wrap ones mind around the fact that Jesus created all things for himself and all things are ordained and planned by the king even who gets saved and who doesn't.. ..jesus is god and does what he wants.. ..people may find it hard to accept but it is easy to understand.. ..n john piper is a wolf.. ..jsyk..
Jesse Gandy, God created us to be with Him in heaven... All God's children deserve heaven...Can you please give a verse for your for what you said that ''all of us deserve hell''? Thanks
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo romans 3:23 the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ. 2 peter 3:9. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Luke 13:3 but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. We deserve hell because of our sin "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)," ephesians 2:4-5 So if "you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9.
@@cjpetty1, Sorry bro., But none of the verses you gave say that we deserved hell... You wrote: ''''We deserve hell'''' because of our sin "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)," ephesians 2:4-5 =>>> You just inserted ''We deserved hell'' Why are you changing the scriptures???? It is not right in the sight of God... I was asking you to give me a verse that says, we deserved hell and you gave a verse and added a lie.....
@@cjpetty1, I did not say that we all deserved heaven... But all the elect will be saved... John 6:39 (KJV) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.=>>> How do you understand this verse?
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
Just my interpretation of the scripture. If God is sovereign and all powerful with no beginning or end. He has already seen and been to the end of our time and he already dwells with us in heaven NOW. knowing who will make it to heaven from the beginning and who will not no matter how he intervenes in their life, I believe this is what predestination is in his ultimate love and wisdom. Yes even God in all his power cannot make a person turn to him and since he knows who those people are he simply determines the end from the start since nothing is hidden from him. He does not need to wait for our death to know where we will end up.
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
This last year and a half have been the hardest on my 12 years marriage, I'm really trying to stand back some, God soften our hearts, amen. Prayers for your situation.
Who are we as mere mortals to try and comprehend the mind of God? Our finite minds could not begin to come close. God is Holy and we are completely hopeless outside of Christ.
If our minds are so imperfect, how can we know for certain God exists in the first place? Shouldn't such a pessimistic conception of the human mind result in absolute agnosticism and absolute skepticism?
@@andyisdead We can only know so much intellectually. But we can know a person personally, can't we? A fellow human being, we only know by what we can see. But God is able to communicate to our hearts who He is, and that is what the Bible says He does, reveal Himself to our inmost beings through His Holy Spirit. A person who believes in Jesus on the basis that the Holy Spirit convicted him/her that He is real and of the most righteous, holy and good character possible, that we need forgiveness and salvation, and that Jesus's death on the cross is sufficient to save us, knows Him, but may not know very much about Him, yet. We learn, but our initial and subsequent faith is not based on our intellectual understanding, not even our understanding of the gospel.
@Curt Christensen No, Curt, not necessarily. God has revealed things we can understand, but naturally there's a vanishing point, where things are beyond our understanding. For an illustration of how things are vastly beyond our ability to completely understand, look at quantum physics. Observation and the math tells them most of what they know, but most of the content that has been added is speculation. It is clearly at a vanishing point of human understanding, so they just speculate more wildly. If the first thing in knowing is knowing that you dont know, theyvare kind of failing that test, because they think the authority of "science" (meaning themselves) depends on their knowing almost it all, that they are 9/10 of the way towards their Grand Theory of Everything: just stay tuned; it's almost there. I don't believe it.
This short video demonstrates why I consider Piper one of the most underrated and under-considered theological "explainers" of our time. For he would rightly point out he is not a theologian because nothing he says is novel or newly understood, per se, but he does explain simply, reverently, concisely and very patiently and compassionately as a man who has wrestled with these things at great length difficult, controversial and hard-to-hear theological concepts.
@@lionofjudahlambofgod9132 You should read Death to death by John Owens in pdf online for free, and with scripture he will change your mind. God is the one who elects, redeems, sanctifies, and glorifys us. When we say we make the final decision on our salvation, that is to say we save ourselves ultimately and Jesus just helps. All that does Is just minimizes the efficacy of the cross, and steals his glory. Jesus Died for the elect and he will not fail to gain one intended sheep. Let’s just be happy we have been shown mercy. God has perfect wisdom and the rest deserve hell just like us, just because we are saved doesn’t mean God owes the others, just means he did something good that he didn’t have too. Anyways God bless, I think that book would change your mind.
b**-This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him. Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven? Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
1. Scripture instructs believers to answer plainly. "we use great plainness of speech" (1 Cor 3:12). John does not use plainness of speech, but obfuscates repeatedly in a way that indicates deception. 2. No, God does not "predestine" or pre-determine anyone to hell. 3. ANYONE can be saved if they choose to trust in Jesus Christ. 4. John Piper is inadvertently doing Satan's work for him. He's deceived, and he's deceiving others.
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
@@realtalkph. Here's who God will have mercy on: " *God* has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." (Romans 11:32, ESV). "The creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of *him* who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (Romans 8:19-21, ESV). As you can see, in both passages, God appears to take responsibility for man's sin, and hints at a glorious future for all mankind.
The opening remarks that you shared, Pastor Piper, really hit home. You mentioned experincing a kind of mental and emotional torment in your early twenties, and here I am (21 years old) struggling and wrestling with many of the theological realities I believe, but find difficult to understand and organize within my full ( but always growing and progressing) knowledge of the Holy One. *"Full" as in my current capacity, but not the ultimate capacity of the knowledge of God.
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
I don't agree with everything Piper says, but I appreciate that he's consistent. Since Piper claimed that God predestines everything, such as the tying of our shoelaces or the brushing of our teeth, it would have been inconsistent for him to say God doesn't predestine people to Hell.
I agree that Piper is consistent…..consistent in that that he’s been presenting a false distortion of Scripture and doesn’t really know what he’s talking about!!!!
@@mattr.1887 Well the good news on that one is that, say, sixty seconds after your last heartbeat you will definitively know the eternal answer. No worries....????
Even weirder that there are so many people who will not bend the knee before an Almighty God that much in charge of His universe. It is perhaps these people that scripture and Piper are talking about in this video.
@@joshuabeiswenger2141 Predestined or not predestined, all will bend the knee. Read the verse: "every knee"--"every knee"--"every knee". Philippians 2:10. You also see this in the Book of Revelation. You can surely find the verses without my help. One of the real spiritual weaknesses of A/P is the failure to see that the God we worship plays for keeps. I know this from experience having once been a deceived A/P myself. But we can know His love forever when we come to Him by faith, which is only accomplished through his elective grace. Eph 2:8-9.
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
@@realtalkph.Amen. Im 100% in agreement. Ask any Christian if man has a free will, and ask for an immediate answer. Then ask if God has a free will and ask for an immediate answer. It’s an interesting experiment. Telling.
I became a Christian couple of months ago, and the gospel message I was told was that God loves ALL sinners, and desires us to repent and be saved. After I got saved, I actively searched for bible studies to further my foundational knowledge of the Word. I see people saying, "our mental capacity cannot comprehend God's will / plan" "we won't know until we're in heaven", etc regarding this topic, but this has always been on the back of my mind. Maybe it's how my brain is wired? I always need to understand the big picture of everything to understand, and I can't seem to ignore this question; does God predestine people to hell? I'm tempted to believe what my other Christian friends believe; that the world has free will, and our salvation relies on whether we choose Jesus or not. However I'm struggling to search for the answer of what the bible truly says. I want to accept the entire biblical truth even if it's painful to, rather than nit picking what I choose to / choose not to, accept to feel better. And tbh, the idea that God would predestine people to hell depresses me, and makes me feel miserable. For instance, millions the babies being aborted today, that was their destiny? What's the point of protesting against abortion then? And this topic leads me to question, what's the point of all this? Why did God create us in the first place? Why bother creating the non-elect; those who are predestined to not choose Jesus in the end. If anyone can recommend me books, sermons, or offer an explanation, please do so!
Hi Ella, praise God that you have come to know Jesus as your Saviour! 🙌 This is the greatest news! I think what might help you is to first explore the character and nature of God.... Like Piper said, he doesn't want to undermine the justice and goodness of God.... First be assured of what you believe about God before tackling a topic like this.... I think this might be helpful. Grace and peace to you on your journey with Christ🙏
You were told a LIE. God does not love all sinners. And you probably are following a false gospel (heresy) thinking that YOU initiated your salvation... that is not possible. -----------
All babies go to heaven, not even Calvinists would deny this. As for God's seeming cognitive dissonance - it's God's active decree of will suppressing His passive will. God can desire something in a sense but not bring it to pass for reasons such as glorification of Himself. God also didn't desire for sin to enter but He let it, neither did He desire for His Son to be mocked, beaten and tortured to death but predetermined it for the sake of His active will. In essence, God's commitment to His glory comes before His other desires.
I love the way Pastor John begins the episode. It’s as if he’s saying it’s better to have a bad/wrong understanding of predestination that it is to have a bad/wrong understanding of God’s goodness and love.
If he predestines them to hell, how are they responsible?!!! If they are essentially “dead in sins” and “in bondage to sin” and are incapable of saving themselves, how are they responsible?!! They can’t acknowledge God without his help. If he doesn’t help them, knowing their state and knowing they can never choose him, how are they responsible for their own sin? This doesn’t make sense.
@TheTrinitarianRemnant888 EZEKIEL 18:30-32 “30 “THEREFORE, YOU ISRAELITE'S, I WILL JUDGE EACH OF YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN WAYS, DECLARES THE SOVEREIGN LORD. REPENT! TURN AWAY FROM ALL YOUR OFFENSES; THEN SIN WILL NOT BE YOUR DOWNFALL. 31 RID YOURSELVES OF ALL THE OFFENSES YOU HAVE COMMITTED, AND GET A NEW HEART AND A NEW SPIRIT. WHY WILL YOU DIE, PEOPLE OF ISRAEL? 32 FOR I TAKE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF ANYONE, DECLARES THE SOVEREIGN LORD. REPENT AND LIVE!”
Child, all men are born spiritually DEAD because of Adam. If you do not understand the BEGINNING of the Gospel... how can you understand ANY of the Gospel? ---------------- Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. ------------- Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, --------------------
BUT FOREKNOWLEDGE DOES NOT IMPLY PREDESTINATION. I BELIEVE GOD PREDESTINES MANY EVENTS. MANY EVENTS THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE HAVE BEEN PREDESTINED. JESUS' BIRTH WAS PREDESTINED. JESUS' DEATH WAS PREDESTINED. JESUS' RESURRECTION WAS PREDESTINED. MANY THINGS IN OUR OWN LIVES COULD VERY WELL BE PREDESTINED. BUT GOD CERTAINLY DOES NOT PREDESTINE PEOPLE TO GO TO HELL. IT IS MAN'S CHOICE TO EITHER ACCEPT GOD'S PATH OR REJECT IT. 2PE 3:9 THE LORD IS NOT SLACK CONCERNING HIS PROMISE, AS SOME MEN COUNT SLACKNESS; BUT IS LONGSUFFERING TO US-WARD, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. JOHN 3:16-18 MAKES EVERYTHING VERY CLEAR. GOD BLESS YOU
We are spiritually dead brother. And that means DEAD DEAD DEAD! We don't want anything to do with the bible or GOD. We don't care at all about our souls condition or anything relative to it. Tell someone physically dead to just have faith and get up. How can they there dead? Being spiritually dead is the same thing.It would take a act from GOD for either of those to happen , just like to be saved from spiritual death , it takes GOD to do that and if you're struggling with sin and concerned about your souls condition and afraid of the guilt and penalty of sin which is everlasting hell or anything related to GOD'S WORD , my friend you can rest assured that that is GOD dealing with you because those concerns are spiritual evidence . Because man's nature and his heart are enemies of GOD. And having more and more thoughts of spiritual things is from nobody except GOD above. It's a WONDERFUL thing to be troubled about ones soul and tore plum up, because that means it's from THE ALMIGHTY and HE WILL finish what HE starts. You are and will be prayed for brother
Every person walking the earth deserves hell. There are none good, no not one. This is why God is so loving, He gave us a way to be saved...Jesus. Everyone needs salvation. much love brothers and sisters Jesus Christ is King
max marrero Calvinism is heresy and unbiblical. John Calvin created his own Bible, a Bible in which God made people sin and proceeds to punish them for having carried out his will. Jesus never died for our sins in Calvinism. He died because God wanted to make his son suffer, even though he could save people without Jesus’s crucifixion. Calvinism is a false religion. Plain and simple.
@max marrero we all deserve hell exactly. God is Holy and just. First off Adam and Eve chose to eat the apple. God said do not eat that one apple. And what did they do? They ate the apple. That's how we are today God commands us what we should be doing and it's our decision are we going to follow God command or are we just not going to listen to him.
I appreciate this answer. I was just thinking about this the other day and thought to honor God is to do His will. So if He didn’t choose you to be saved and you live a life dishonoring God, are you honoring Him by fulfilling His will? Even though you’re breaking His laws and not turning to Him? And if God chose you not to be saved but you accept Him as Lord and Savior are you going against His will and dishonoring Him? That’s a paradox, it can’t be true. I accept that my human mind will not understand Gods infinite wisdom
Child... read the Bible: ------------ Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. -------------- Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, -----------------
The fact that u want to follow God is a gift from God. Most people simply don’t care. God draws people to follow him. It is not in our fallen nature to want to obey God. If u want to obey God it’s because He’s drawn you to him. If you want to be saved that is God convicting you to follow him. He’s not going to turn you away when it is him who draws us to him. No need to worry about all of this elect or non elect friend if you have a desire to follow God then u are among the elect. John 6:44. There’s another verse I can’t remember off the top of my head but it basically says how we can’t follow God without God softening our hearts to him
This question - predestination for Hell - has worried me because I have a hard time finding God no matter how hard I seek Him. I have this worry that maybe I'm one of the "vessels made for destruction"
Hey Benjamin! I struggled with this exact same thing for a while. The thing is, if God put you in the path to see His Good Word and His Glory, then he means more for you! I struggled feeling like i was one of those people that was destined for Hell, but, Praise the Lord, the more I spent praying and learning about Him and falling in love with Him, the more i realized that that was simply not me. I pray that he does the same for you! you have to push yourself to pray even when you don’t want to, study the Bible even when you don’t want to, etc. I would ask that the Lord forgive me for any incorrect theological ideas in this, if there are any. God Bless!
The very fact that you're trying to find God shows that you're well on your way to finding Him. Keep on asking, it SHALL be given. Keep on seeking, you SHALL find. Keep on knocking, it SHALL be opened. Jesus says"Him that cometh to Me, I shall in no wise cast out"John 6:37 Please rest on the Word of God. Don't bother about predestination. That's God's work. Our work is to trust and obey!
@@sammiejones2012 Dear Sam, those words of yours sound so blessed and sensible! I've been struggling for a year already with this - which has been the worst battle ever, a real nightmare that I can't seem to wake up from! If there's any chance I could briefly write or talk to you about it, please say hi @ diegoribeiroabc@gmail.com Kind regards from Brazil, Diego Ribeiro
Dear brother Benjamin... This is a lie a belief the devil wants to use to stop you from seeking God... God words are true he exalts his words beyond even his name and what did his word say it says when you seek me with your whole heart then you shall find me... Your question your search now should be how do i seek God with my whole heart. Am i already seeking God with my whole heart... Please don't let the devil deceive you be blessed.
We should delight that the Lord has a real and deep compassion for perishing sinners. Yet this longing does not govern God's actions. He is governed by the depth of his wisdom expressed through a plan that no ordinary human deliberation would ever conceive. God's will to save all people is restrained by his commitment to the glorification of his sovereign grace. I would recommend reading about the differences between God's will of DECREE and will of COMMAND. There are many other examples like 2 Peter 3:9 that can be explained with this line of thinking. Such as the Lord willing that we obey him, yet we continue in sin. Or the Lord willing that the Isrealites flee Egypt, yet hardening Pharaoh's heart to prevent them from leaving. Etc.
@@aarongochnauer9576 So what you're saying is that it is not his will that they perish. And even though he can rescue them they are screwed because God has bigger things to worry about (like His glory) than the billions of his creatures suffering unimaginable pain in hell for all eternity in hell. This is the great loving compassionate God you worship...what a joke.
@@2growdaily181 I for sure see where you are coming from! It is a hard thing for myself to accept as well. I am sure there are much wiser people that could defend or even refute this, but I am a simple person, and the two things I come back to are: 1) God's thoughts are not our thoughts (meaning just because something doesn't seem logical to me, doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense to God.) I realize this is not appealing though. 2) instead of asking "why won't God save EVERYONE?" we should be asking "why would God save ANYONE?" in the sense that we love sin, want to sin, and choose sin over and over again in direct defiance to God, how much grace and mercy he must have to even save one of us is amazing. Good questions though! let me know if you have any more.
@@aarongochnauer9576 You ask "why would God save ANYONE? Here a couple of reasons. He is our creator. He is supposed to be loving and compassionate. He commands us to love our enemies and to give them water. And it is just the plain descent and right thing to do. And lastly, supposedly the the death of Jesus has the power to overcome sin, death, and devil...so Jesus apparently paid the penalty for sin but God refuses to apply it to 99% of humanity. If we saw someone dying from fire or burning and refused to help them when it was in our power do so...we would be considered terrible humans. I can't believe that humans would be more compassionate and a better example of love than God. OR THIS WHOLE CALVINIST DOCTRINE IS FALSE AND MALIGNS AND MISREPRESENTS GOD'S TRUE CHARACTER.
Twice you mentioned that the sinner has a "choice." I thought choice wasn't an option , especially if you are elect to salvation. Piper said, "Everyone who perishes has 'chosen' sin in such a way as to be truly responsible for his 'choice,' and truly guilty, and truly deserving of judgment.” So were the Arminians right in saying that God "looked down a portal of time and saw who would and would not choose him, and determined their destination based on His foreknowledge? Pretty interesting how at one point God is sovereign and can do whatever He wants, but then the choice is the sinners. Hmm...something is amiss.
What if part of His sovereignty is His choice to give us a choice? I haven’t heard about the arminians, but that’s an interesting thought. The Holy Spirit reveals truth, I pray He will answer this question for you. But if He does not, I beg you not to make the mistake of rejecting God because of our own limited knowledge. He has changed me, I am a new creature. I should’ve been dead so many times. I am testifying to His goodness!
You are quite correct in this point. Pastor John just needed to clarify that I think. Especially with as important of a point as it is. But think about it. If we were not able to count on Jesus forgiveness for all our sin then what would be the point of faith ?
@@nandimichel-trapaga2615 good thing I'm saved, but I do very much appreciate your genuine concern for the lost. But I will say this, inconsistency won't fly with the lost. If Piper sounds contradictory, they re not going to buy what he's selling. He needs to be very clear about how God elects, yet man is choosing. I understand Irresistible Grace according to Calvin, but either God selected us or not. I don't believe He does, I believe in free will, not the bondage of the will.
Some topics aren’t meant for us to FULLY understand and that’s okay. Whatever the Bible says is true whether it seems to be predestination or not it doesn’t change the fact that the Bible says believe on the lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
I cannot support this. This flies in the face of everything I know of the living God. To think that God would create people that he loves who have absolutely no chance of redemption no matter what they may desire seems totally opposite of God's character of love. Yes, we all deserve hell and death, but to think that everyone's fate is already determined is nonsense. Why give the Great Commandment if it's already decided? Why have churches? Why have missionaries? I have much respect for John Piper and John Macarthur, but I cannot disagree more strongly.
Amen. What Piper is saying is theological confused gibberish. The calvinistic view of God is that before anyone did right or wrong, before the foundation of the world, God decided to elect people to eternal life. This being the case, then by default everyone else is part of the non-elect (whether directly chosen as non-elect or made non-elect because they are not elect) and thus predestined for the lake of fire. the Bible does teach that people who end up in the lake do deserve to go there because they face God with their sins in tact rather than facing God with Christ as their intercessor. This is where Calvinists do so why their doctrine is gibberish in light of the Bible. People cannot possibly be responsible for ending up in the lake of fire if they were made part of the non-elect BEFORE the foundation of the world and BEFORE anyone did anything right or wrong. They are predestined to the Lake of Fire BECAUSE they were not chose as part of the elect. Calvinists have their heads buried in the sand if they can't see this conclusion from what it means for WHEN people are chose to be elect and non-elect. The eternal state of both has nothing to do with anything about us but what calvinism's god did BEFORE anyone did right or wrong. You should take a look at this video ua-cam.com/video/Daomzm3nyIg/v-deo.html
@@jacksonbenzick2357 the Bible has no contradictions much less tons of them. I have seen that it is always the ignorance of people who claim contradictions that don't study the Bible. God does not predestine anyone to hell. That is a calvinist idea that is rooted in their philosophy which started with Augustine who brought it in from his previous pagan beliefs. John Piper long ago discarded the Bible for Calvinists views . it is the Calvinist philosophy that is at odds with the Bible and not the Bible at odds with itself.
Accept our will isn’t apart from his power. If the bible is true he can not create a person who’s will is truly there own because it would be contradictory, according to the bible he could have created us differently so our will was predestined.
Here's what's wrong with this whole predestination thing: 1) How do we know that God hasn't predestined for everyone, including Satan, to eventually be saved? Who are we to say that He can't do what He pleases? Who are we to say that God has to damn anyone? If His sill is to damn, then He will damn. If it is to save all, then He will save all. So lets stop worrying about who will be saved and damned and just worry about whether YOU will be saved or damned. Have faith. Read the scriptures. Turn to God. Stop trying to figure out God's infinite mind. 2) Even if we did determine that somehow by reading the Bible that there was no flexibility in this question and that the Bible somehow demands that God must will to damn some or many souls, how does this help me? Am I predestined to salvation or damnation? Where's the list that I can look up? Is there an Internet site with this data in it that I can look up? What if i just live a really sinful life and feel down on myself -- does this mean that I am predestined and should give up? Or what if my name is Calvin and i have a "gut feeling" that I am saved. Is this certainty that I am saved? This doctrine gives no useful advice. It gives no predictive ability. Forget it. Maybe God does predestine salvation. Who cares? Turn to God. Find faith. Pray. Do good. Accept Jesus Christ. Read the Gospel. Stop worrying about something that smart people think they have figured out but in fact they haven't even scratched the surface because the mind of God is infinite and beyond their comprehension.
Amen. I myself wonder what is the point of this theology. Why does it matter if we’re Arminian or Calvinist? Or in the middle? What matters is if we believe in Jesus as savior, or not. Leave it at that. What is the importance of the other details? So we can boast in our depravity about how great God is and in the process fail to spread the gospel as He’s instructed us to do? The more I learn about Calvinism the more it feels like a lazy theology.
Silly child... we know because we READ the Bible. Obviously you need to READ the Bible because your question shows you have no understanding of what Scripture says. -------
I can tell you're a bit immature from your opening line, so let me tell you this -- read the WHOLE Bible, nit just the bits and pieces that seem to agree with your personal beliefs. And stop putting other Christians down. You're fuel for the atheists and Muslims. Let's work together.
@@kelseycooper5973 .... you ignorant little child. --------- (1) you say in your original post (and I quote) 1) How do we know that God hasn't predestined for everyone, including Satan, to eventually be saved? --------- We know this because the Bible PROMISES only the elect are saved. The Bible PROMISES that NO MAN will ever seek God, No, not even one. Jesus PROMISES that NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father "draws" them and Jesus PROMISES that ALL MEN the Father give Him will come and HE will lose NONE Jesus PROMISES the church consists of unsaved "tares" sown by Satan...destined to Hell Jesus PROMISES that hell will be heavily populated The Bible PROMISES that Hell is reserved for Satan and his Demons ---------------- And yet you know NONE of this and in your snowflake heretical delusion you even wonder if ALL MEN will be saved and even SATAN and his DEMONS will be saved. You are bat-shit looney and do not have the slightest CLUE about the Gospel. ----------------- You show by your "fruit" that you are an unsaved "tare" sown by Satan and destined to eternal torment. Make no mistake, you will be surrounded by other unsaved "Christians" as well as all those REJECTING Christ... like Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Secular Humanists, Pagans and Satanists. ------------------- In my almost 50 years of preaching I have NEVER seen a "Christian" as confused and ignorant as you. I have NEVER heard a "Christian" suggest that SATAN will be saved. Just pathetic. ----------------
Some people have the misconception of what “God chooses us.” means. It doesn’t mean that he created some to go to hell and some to go to heaven. It means that he comes to us in his perfect timing, where we need to respond through perseverance and endurance and faith during times of trial, hardship and testing. Pruning and rebuking. Discipling and chastising of the Lord. Predestination refers to blessing and testing to determine salvation.
The goodness of God brings us to repentance. We should love and serve God not because of punishment but because we love Him for the unfathomable extremes that He gone through for us. God is Pure Love and all His judgments are perfect and pure and true and just. Work with God because you love Him not out of fear.
@@noahguillen2201 .... I never said you were MY child, just A child. And WHO do you think the "thee" represents in Romans 2:4 ? I assume you have a POINT to make? ------- As in your original post.... who do you imagine "us" represents? -------- Tell me child, WHO loves God? The elect or the reprobate? ----------
God desires that everyone will be saved. But because of freewill, accepting the gift of salvation is up to the hearer of the gospel. To those who had not heard of the gospel, there is the great white throne judgement which one has to contend with based on God's justice, grace, and mercy through Christ.
You say "God desires everyone will be saved". If he desires it, it should be his will and plan. Is he unable to make a universe where everyone chooses him? Isn't that what heaven is? Why not just create heaven and skip the earth and hell? If everything goes according to God's plan (Ephesians1:11), then he chose to make a universe with a hell full of people (Matt 7:14). He is ultimately responsible. Was he unable to make a universe with free will where the people who would end up in hell would never be born? This is a being of unimaginable horror. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7 KVJ I could never love a being who burns people forever. If there really is a loving god, maybe he/she is using Christianity to find out who the morally compromised people are who practice and defend it. This is not meant to be offensive. Just food for thought.
@@philipmunson3369 IMO, I believe the creation process is still on going, until all comes perfectly according to His plan, the New Heaven and the New Earth is the end and the beginning of it all. Comparing the Burning Furnace to the Lake of Fire, there is so much a big difference between this two. Furnace is an instrument to make a useful product to come out of it. As in the case of gold and silver you can come out of a pure and perfect one. In the case of the Lake of Fire, everything that will be thrown in it will be totally annihilated and destroyed. If accdg to Rev. 20 death and hades were destroyed when it was thrown in the Lake of Fire, so will all the dead that were judged in the GWTJ, that will the end of them, the end of their sufferiing in Hades, the place of the dead, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. For those who repented and call upon the Name of the Lord after they had served their punishment in Hades, will be saved according to the works they have done during their time on Earth and accdg to God'Grace and the Mercy Seat of Christ in the Ark of the Covenant present in the GWTJ which is also I believe is the Sheep and the Goat Judgement. The Sheep will be the Nations in the New Heaven and New Earth. The Saints and the Prophets will be the kings after they receive their crowns in the GWTJ. This is my understanding of how God's plan of Salvation for Mankind and His Creation will come into fruition and perfection. I am not a teacher, I am just a student of the Bible. I don't have much svriptures to back this up. The only principles that I am basing my understanding of this is about the Owner of the Vineyard, the Sheep and the Goat Judgement, the Ten Virgins, the Wedding Banquet, the Resurrection in the book of Corinthians. God bless us. Let the Holy Spirit be our Teacher.
@@roderickcruz5234 So you believe in annihilation. The Bible is pretty clear that hell is a place where the purpose of fire is for eternal torment. Read these verses: Matthew 25:46, Matthew 18:8, Mark 9:48, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Jude 7, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20, 10-15, and please finish with Revelation 22:18-19. When Rev 20 says "death will be destroyed when ...thrown into the lake of fire" it seems to say death will no longer happen. Your interpretation seems to be just the opposite of the author's intent. Wouldn't a good god provide absolute clarity on such an important topic? Why the opposing interpretations? The real question is why take any of this serious? Consider for a moment what you would think if you thought critically about all of this as an outsider to your faith. Are your beliefs truly justified?
@@philipmunson3369 In the sheep and the goat judgement, which I believe is the GWTJ also, the only eternal that is described there id the fire, to serve as a memorial, as what gehenna was in jerusalem. The problem whith conflicting doctrines that were established by various denominations, is that they did not put the end in mind. The book of Revelation is the story about the end of everything and the start of eternity. This is where you will get the conclusion and validation or contradiction of all various preconceived views and beliefs. The study of the book of Revelation was not encouraged during the old times when doctrines were taking its final forms. Just like in a movie. You get the clear picture when you get to the end not in the middle.
I don't think you even read the verses. Matt 25:46 "They will go away into eternal punishment". Be careful about making the Bible say just what you want it to.
It all boils down to the scripture that says the Lord knows those who are his and everyone who turns to the Lord MUST depart from iniquity. All men are evil by nature but from them we get two kinds of responses when they hear the word of truth: 1. Some will flee to take hold of the hope held out in the gospel and be saved. 2. Some, because of the love for sin and the benefits they derive from it, will reject the truth and be condemned. Before time begun God foreknew everyone's decisions and predestined them accordingly. Those who would harden their hearts he predestined them for ignoble purposes and destruction like Judas Iscariot and Pharaoh. Those who would yield to the call of God he prepared them in advance for noble purposes and glory.
s**-This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him. Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven? Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
1. Scripture instructs believers to answer plainly. "we use great plainness of speech" (1 Cor 3:12). John does not use plainness of speech, but obfuscates repeatedly in a way that indicates deception. 2. No, God does not "predestine" or pre-determine anyone to hell. 3. ANYONE can be saved if they choose to trust in Jesus Christ. 4. John Piper is inadvertently doing Satan's work for him. He's deceived, and he's deceiving others.
If a biblical teaching makes you depressed and anxious, it's not a proper teaching. God doesn't predestine anyone to hell. The entirety of salvation is based on personal choice. Ended was about personal choice. Jesus didn't die for a predestined bunch but for the entire world to have the personal choice to make. There will be no second coming until this personal choice is given to all peoples of all ethnicities of all lands.
@@jedimasterham2 Imagine being 19 and depressed and anxious over these garbage theologies. Christians anger me sometimes in their bloviating from authority instead of being humble in their opinions
@@jedimasterham2 du selbst bist ein Lügner, ein vom freimaurerische Humanismus getriebener Weltmensch der definieren will was Gott zu tun und zu lassen hat
Romans 9-11 has a very happy ending: "God has committed all to disobedience that he might have mercy on all ... From him and through him and to him are all things." (Romans 11:32,36a)
Predestination is exactly why I am an Atheist. I specifically looked for a video about this and I wasn't disappointed. The answer Pastor John gives was what I was expecting. It was the answer I was given as a youth. Although I must state, he does a better job than the pastors of my youth. I have many objections to what pastor John said in this video. But the first and most egregious of these would be his first 'preliminary point'. He said that 'we should not believe in predestination or disregard the concept if you rightfully come to the conclusion that God is unjust and immoral.' I shouldn't have to tell anybody why facts matter... One is not inclined to an alternative 'truth' simply because the facts don't suit them. If multiple scriptures throughout the bible talk about predestination, one can't really just ignore it. It is a canonical feature of Christianity. Thus it must be judged as a whole, not disregarded simply due to the fact that it is an inconvenient concept. To simply erase this unpleasant aspect from your understanding of God would mean you are refusing an aspect of God himself, while asking him to accept you as a whole. Either it's all OK and you accept God for what he is. Or none of it is, and you come to realize conclusions far more radical than you'd have liked to believe. So what's it going to be? His second 'preliminary point' is simply nonsensical. Although it gets to the real meat and potatoes of the issue at hand. He states that 'God never sends anybody to hell that doesn't deserve it.' But think about the logic behind that for just a moment. If predestination is correct; and considering it peppers the scripture, not even I, an atheist, would has any reason to disregard it. That means it is entirely on god for every last damned soul cast to perdition. There's really no way around that. God set up the rules of heaven and earth, presumably hell too. That means you have mankind being damned to hellfire though no fault of their own. For it was god that destined their path to damnation. It was god that designed them to falter and be punished for his designs. Like I said, there's just no logical way around that. If predestination is so, it means the god of Abraham is evil beyond redemption. On a personal note to any who may read this, I understand if this offends you. It is a VERY disturbing and unsettling subject. It personally destroyed any hope I ever had that I would ever go back to church, or more importantly ever acknowledge the god of Abraham as 'my' god ever again. But before you challenge me, take some time and honestly consider what I have written. If you have some other understanding behind the nature of God, unknown to me; I'd like to know.
Satan questioned God's character in Eden. This whole age of Grace we are now in is a display of God's nature and character. The mere fact you can bring an accusation against an all powerful God shows his character. He allows grace when judgement is due but one day grace will run out.
@@myballsitchsomethingfierce6319 It is a fair accusation and a "good" God would never get offended by it. When a kid makes an honest question, you teach him, you don't cast him into the fire.
@@jonr9467 Mommy why are you so selfish? you never let eat candy for dinner and ride my bike alone at night. Clearly you're not a good mommy. There was nothing fair about Satan accusations.
Being an atheist isn’t why God chooses. He knew u would reject him Hod is all knowing he knew who would accept Jesus or not he calls all of us to repent and come to Jesus but most ppl don’t wana do it I actually feel bad for the unbelieving but let’s all be real we all deserve hell bcus we are bad species and we don’t act out of Gods nature we don’t deserve his love I know I don’t God has mercy we must choose him
1. Scripture instructs believers to answer plainly. "we use great plainness of speech" (1 Cor 3:12). John does not use plainness of speech, but obfuscates repeatedly in a way that indicates deception. 2. No, God does not "predestine" or pre-determine anyone to hell. 3. ANYONE can be saved if they choose to trust in Jesus Christ.
I think often times this debate continues because of semantics. For instance... pre destination doesn’t actually mean that God forcibly sends someone to hell right??? It simply means that he knows who will accept and reject him and based off of that “knowledge” he predestines to heaven/hell. But everyone still has a choice.
1. Scripture instructs believers to answer plainly. "we use great plainness of speech" (1 Cor 3:12). John does not use plainness of speech, but obfuscates repeatedly in a way that indicates deception. 2. No, God does not "predestine" or pre-determine anyone to hell. 3. ANYONE can be saved if they choose to trust in Jesus Christ. 4. John Piper is inadvertently doing Satan's work for him. He's deceived, and he's deceiving others.
@@jedimasterham2 Not sure 1 Cor 3:12 says what you thought it did? But I don’t think John was being deceptive, rather he’s just using scripture to justify his answer. This topic has to be handled delicately and words have to be articulated correctly because this is a big topic, one which quite frankly turns many away from God because people don’t know what they’re talking about. John didn’t say that not everyone can be saved, I agree with you that they can. What he said was that the ones who have been “pre-destined” to hell have rejected God in their hearts knowingly and willingly but the choice for salvation was always there.
@@joshuajackson7691 The answer is simple. God does not predestine anyone to hell. It’s also important to clarify that Predestination is not pre-determination. Predestination is simply a reserve a destination from point A to point B. When we are saved through faith, we become predestined to heaven, and service to God.
2Peter 3:9 says that God does not will that anyone should perish. That means the will of God is that all be saved. That shows that He never pre-destined anyone to hell. But choices are made by people to receive Jesus or not. A person's wrong choice not only affects him but also generation after generation after him. But then again anyone who is saved is by grace. Everyone who has heard the Gospels has heard the will of God for him/her. The choice is up to them to receive it or reject it.
Basically, while man does have a free will, it is not free because of original sin. Think of a computer lacking important apps in order to function. Man lacks the app to do good works that are righteous in God's sight. For salvation to occur, God must step in and monergistically change the "want to" in the doomed sinner, installing (imputing) righteousness and giving the formerly lost sinner new desires, and a new want to. In effect, saving that person. Lost and saved man both have a free will to do many things: conduct bypass surgery, hit a triple, have sex, hold up a bank. God "decrees" such activity in that he does not appear to interfere with the conduct, even when sinful. But the important word is not decree, but "ordain". The easy definition of ordain is to "use it". There are no maverick molecules in God's universe. Otherwise, God would not be in control. Two big examples of this truth appear in the Bible (and many others), one in the OT, the other in the NT. The first is in Genesis 50 where Joseph tells his brothers that their selling him into slavery was meant for evil, but God meant it for good. The second is in the NT where God uses the actions of Judas and others to kill Jesus, yet look at the eternal good established in those acts. Finally, there are many more Bible passages that support everything said here (you can look them up), but I would also direct you to Chapter 3 of the Westminster Confession. The WCF is not the Bible but a restatement of BIble truths like a really great sermon, though better. God bless you in your studies.
Thus says The Lord: By My prophets have I made My plans known. Yet that which I am about to do is done already, and shall be. And that which I have spoken from the beginning, even to this day, is true. For the will of God can not be broken, even as The Scriptures. And if My every word is Scripture, then how shall even one word fail? Yet My people fall away, and My little flock grows smaller still. For they seek to loosen these bonds in an attempt to flee this bundle. For the Way of The Lord is not known among them, and My words have ceased from being a blessing. And so they flee back into the world in an attempt to escape, as in all times past, for they have no root. Yet I tell you the truth, none shall escape their bundle. For all bundles lie in the field already, each one tied securely and set in its place. Therefore as one attempts to flee this bundle, the truth of the matter is made plain. For they have not departed at all, but remain in the bundle in which I had placed them at the first. I AM THE LORD. Beloved ones, I search the hearts and minds, even the innermost thoughts I know; even from the foundation of the world did I know each one of you, setting you in your place from the beginning. Yet some will say, “What of free will and our right to choose?” To these I say: You have chosen, and the will of your heart has spoken, and thus were you bundled and prepared. For I know My own. Thus the Bride is chosen; My blood runs through her veins, My image is shown upon her face... Behold, the light of My coming is reflected In her eyes, for I have captured her gaze, And she will by no means look away Or seek after another... Therefore some are plucked from The world already, and shall also be taken; They shall surely be gone from this place!... Says The Lord. Source: trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=The_Harvest_Is_Separated%2C_All_Bundles_Set_in_Their_Places
The concept of Predestination contradicts the reality of Free Will. We automatically assume that because God is all knowing, that He has already destined everything in our lives. No... All it means is that God is all knowing. God doesn't exist in time, it is a dimension that only created beings exist in. God dwells in Eternity. So God does not abide by the laws of Time neither does he abide by the laws of physics. If we as Humans could figure out God then I don't think he would be God. What we have to understand is that not only is God Omniscient (All knowing) but he is also Omnipresent ( Everywhere all at the same time). These are concepts we will never understand because we are created beings dwelling within the laws of a physical and material world. Due to God's omnipresence He is in every mili second and nano second of time from the beginning to the end, all at the same time. So we're in the year 2022 but God is also in the year 1975 at the same time. He's fully present in our past, future and our now. Whatever decisions we make now will already be known because he also is present in the future. Our lives are like a reel before him he sees every moment and every process as it happens and he sees the end result. In other words if right now I decide to go out to buy pizza God already knows I went out to buy pizza. If I decide not to go out and buy pizza God alreadys knows I didn't buy Pizza. He didn't predetermine my actions but because He is outside of time yet in it in all its fullness he sees every action and he sees every outcome like alternate realities or watching everything from multiple dimensions all at the same time. It doesn't make sense but it's not supposed to because we are created beings.
1 Timothy 2:4-6 God wants everyone to be saved and to fully understand the truth. 5 There is only one God, and there is only one way that people can reach God. That way is through Christ Jesus, who as a man 6 gave himself to pay for everyone to be free. This is the message that was given to us at just the right time.
They were predestined for hell because God already knew what their choices would be. Just because God knows what their choices would be does not mean they did not have a choice to do right and be saved. I sometimes already know what choice my family is going to make on certain matters but that doesn't mean I caused them to do that action. Every man is accountable for his own choices. God knowing those choices ahead of time does not make God unjust.
This comment doesn't address the main issue, which is why creating such person on the first place. That is the root problem regardless of his/her actions. In other words to be more clear, why God would create someone who He knows it is going to perish in hell in the first place?
1. Scripture instructs believers to answer plainly. "we use great plainness of speech" (1 Cor 3:12). John does not use plainness of speech, but obfuscates repeatedly in a way that indicates deception. 2. No, God does not "predestine" or pre-determine anyone to hell. 3. ANYONE can be saved if they choose to trust in Jesus Christ. 4. John Piper is inadvertently doing Satan's work for him. He's deceived, and he's deceiving others.
@@Gablesman888 It's not a false accusation if it's true. Calvinism is 100% unbiblical, and it turns God into the bad guy who ordains people to sin, and Jesus into the bad news because most were never picked by God to be saved. All of Calvinism is antichristian, and presents a false gospel that cannot save.
@@jedimasterham2 Again, can you elaborate rather than falsely accuse? Use scripture to prove your assertions, not blah blah. I am also challenging you to properly apply the 1 Cor 3:12 verse which you eisegeted. You really cannot do this since the A/P approach to the Bible does not appear in the Bible at all. You just showed us a taste of that by misapplying the Corinthians verse. That's about all you got Bub. On the other hand, the Reformed view of things is on practically every page of the Bible. Try again if you like. Your time would be better spent on this Thanksgiving Day Eve by having another glass of wine. Have a great holiday.
@@Gablesman888 Calvinism if a false gospel. Why? Because the following: 1. Calvinism makes salvation exclusive, but Scripture makes it clear salvation is inclusive to whoever believes. There's over 150 verses reiterating this. 2. Calvinism says God picks sinners for heaven, and picks sinners for hell. However scripture says God loves everyone, is impartial, and wants all people to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth. 3. Calvinism says no one can come to believe in Jesus (unless God forces them to believe), but scripture instructs us we must do this to be saved. 4. Calvinism believes true salvation is any sinner whom God picks to be saved before creation. However, this is salvation outside of Christ. 5. Calvinism says people must persevere in works as evidence of salvation. Scripture says we should, but even those carnal believers are still saved, though will burn up works and lose reward. 6. Calvinism makes God responsible for sin and people going to hell, not humans. It also turns Jesus into the bad news, because claim people can't come to believe in Jesus without God forcing them. In every way possible, Calvinism is not only a false gospel, but is downright antichristian. Arminianism is no better.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! - JESUS
The early church fathers saw the issue much differently: "Christ saves all men. Some he converts by penalties, others who follow Him of their own will ... that every knee may be bent to Him, of those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" [Isa. 45:22-23, Rom. 14:11, Phil. 2:10-11, Rev. 5:13] -- *Clement of Alexandria,* _Commentary on 1 John_ "When death shall no longer exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then, verily, God will be All in all" [1 Cor. 15:28,55] -- *Origen,* _De Principiis 3:6.3_ "What else does 'until the times of universal restoration' signify to us, if not the aeon to come, in which all beings must receive their perfect restoration?" [Acts 3:21] -- *Eusebius,* leading historian of the early church, _Contra Marcellum __2:4:11_ "A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one." [Col. 1:15-20] -- *Gregory Nazianzus,* _Oration 42_ "Christ captured over again the souls captured by the devil, for that He promised in saying, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me.'" [John 12:32, 1 Peter 3:19-20, 4:6, Psalm 68:18, Eph. 4:8-10, and maybe Matt. 12:29] -- *Athanasius,* _Expositions on the Psalms, 68.18_ "The peace [coming] from the Lord is coextensive with all time [eternity]. For all things shall be subject to him, and all things shall acknowledge his empire; and when God shall be all in all, those who now excite discords by revolts, having been quite pacified, [all things] shall praise God in peaceful concord." [Psalm 145:10a, 1 Cor. 15:28, Rev. 5:13] -- *Basil,* _Commentary on Isaiah 9:6_ "So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive." [Luke 19:10, 1 Cor. 15:22] -- *Ambrose,* _Exposition on the Gospel of Luke 15.3_ "For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual, ... but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period, according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end, awaits them; ... the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave crimes are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed them. The resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing, not only to the good, but also to the evil." [Isa. 57:16], *Diodore,* _De Oecon_ "Some among the wise and learned … have alluded to this in an enigmatic way, by adducing that God is not only just, but also merciful, and that it becomes the One who judges with justice to have sinners suffer in a measure that is proportional to their sins and then make them worthy of blessedness." -- *Theodore,* _Liber Scholiorum, 2:63_ "'All the kings of the earth shall adore him.' Some, indeed, in the present life willingly, but all the rest after the Resurrection; for not yet do we see all things subject to him, but then every knee shall bow to him." [The "kings of the earth" are rebellious unbelievers in Rev. 6:15, 17:2,18, 18:3,9, 19:19,21 ... but check out what happens in Rev. 21:24-27!] -- *Theodoret,* _On Psalm 72:11_ "Death shall come as a visitor to the impious; it will not be perpetual; it will not annihilate them; but will prolong its visit, till the impiety which is in them shall be consumed." [Matt. 5:26] -- *Jerome,* _On Micah 5:8_ "After the complete abolition of sin, praise shall be sung to God; which praise contain (implies) our being incapable of turning to sin ... when every created being shall be harmonized into one choir ... and when, like a cymbal, the reasonable creation, and that which is now severed by sin ... shall pour forth a pleasing strain, due to mutual harmony. Then comes the praise of every spirit for ever abounding with increase unto eternity." [Psalm 150] -- *Gregory of Nyssa,* _On Psalms, Tract 1, ch. 9_ Other church fathers who believed in eventual universal salvation include *Asterius, Bardaisan, Cyril of Alexandria, Didymus the Blind, Dionysius, Ephrem the Syrian, Gennadius, Hilary, John Cassian, John Chrysostom, Marcellus, Maximus the Confessor, Maximus of Turin, Methodius, Paulinus, Proclus, Titus of Basra & Victorinus.* Sources: Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ Annotated by Robin Parry edition, chapters 4-5 & Ilaria Ramelli, _A Larger Hope?, Volume 1: Universal Salvation from Christian Beginnings to Julian of Norwich,_ 2019
The issue I have with this is that it can be boiled down to some sort of a divine lottery. We all buy a ticket but only a few will win. If then others would contest that "Well actually, you can't even buy the ticket unless God first gives you the money..." Then I would liken it to a room full of starving blind people. Acting as God, I would place food in front of the ones I chose even though they are all the same. Now I can say, "look how generous I am." The others die due to their starvation. I didn't force them to die, but since they could not see the food, they died anyways. If man is totally unable to respond to God without Him first regenerating the man, then man is like a lifeless puppet on a conveyor belt to the furnace. Unless God pulls the strings the puppet cannot respond. Then when the puppet has his strings pulled by the "irresistible grace" he will respond and be saved from the furnace. But how does this glorify the goodness of God? The reformist seems to appeal to the mystery that is God. He gets the credit for saving and being just by punishing the other lifeless puppets who failed to respond, but only because He did not pull their strings. Keeping with this view, why not simply have those that are created perfect and created fallen, short-cut the death of Christ. Christ even said that God could create descendants of Abraham from stones. If He did, He would have made new "Adams" free from sin, since sin is passed from fathers unto their children. Then He would have a literal line of people predestined to eternal life who would freely choose to serve Him. Another point is if man is elected to salvation unconditionally and the grace of God is irresistible then how did Adam come to sin? Adam was free already from sin with the knowledge and direct experience of God. We as Christians now know that we are not perfect and that our sanctification is a life-long process. We strive to sin less, but we won't ever become sin-less until we have new bodies. Adam was without sin until the fall. He was without corruption, made perfect in the image of God. He still sinned in the end. Does God need to send many to Hell to show His contrasting goodness by saving a few? Instead I think that another view could be possible. Some are elect and some are brought in. The elect were chosen by God unconditionally but to others they were chosen as they chose Him. I know the objection is that then it's not by grace alone, but I would say that by God's foreknowledge, He knew those who would respond appropriately not only those that He had to override their sin nature. Paul writes in Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance..." If it were impossible for an elect to fall away then why say this at all, unless some who are saved are not elect.
The response any good Calvinist would give is either "the elect can't fall away" or perhaps "the elect will not fall away, those who do are not elect". Anyhow, I don't think that passage is talking about salvation at all. I think it is talking about unsaved people who have rejected the gospel after seeing all of that stuff. Ay any rate I don't think it's an obstacle to OSASz from either a Calvinist or non-Calvinist perspective.
If you’re not planning to sin as you did unsaved then you are on the right path. When you sin now as a born again believer in Christ Jesus it is very painful. This pain is very hard to live with.
@JcsBee, Then hear the goodnews of the gospel: Your sins are fully paid for and Jesus has taken them away as if You have never sinned in your entire life. There is thus no sin You have which can out sin Gods grace...thats How much He loves You...it is this love that will break the chains of bondage that enslaves You. You dont need prayer, You need to understand what Jesus has done for You at the cross. God bless.
@@brendonburdett7015 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV bible.com/bible/59/heb.6.4-6.ESV
@@jes9157 Repent on the goodnews I shared with You. God is not looking for reasons to reject You.Hb 6:4 is about man hardening their hearts towards what God has done...the rejection is from mans side, not Gods side. The only sin is not to believe that Jesus has taken away your sin.
There are many good preachers such as Tony Evans,Adrian Rogers ,A W Tozer (even though some have died still their messages are in youtube)beside these reformed preachers.i dont like these word of faith preachers,but also the reformed theology i dont agree with at all.Jesus died for all people (1john 2:2).if you believe in Jesus,you will be saved.whoever calls in the Name of the Lord will be saved.nobody is predestined for hell.predestination and free will are both in the Bible and is impossible to understand how they work together.maybe we will never understand it.is a MYSTERY.lets leave it there.is not for us to know.Trust God.God is good all the time.whoever believes in Jesus will be saved.
Isn't this exactly what Pastor John said? That although known and set by God, it is done in a way that a man's sinful choice leaves them accountable, and we cannot understand. That is literally the essence of reformed theology
If Jesus PAID for the sins of ALL PEOPLE then nobody will go to hell... because no sin must be paid TWICE. ----------- You have to make sure your "theory" harmonizes with ALL RELATED passages and not just one-or-two verses. All heresy harmonizes with one-or-two verses... ---------------- Jesus PAID for the sins of "His Sheep"... they have no condemnation. All others must pay for their OWN SINS (every idle word and even their sinful thoughts). This is theology 101... why is it NEWS to you? ----------
Most leading early church fathers believed in eventual universal salvation: "Christ saves all men. Some he converts by penalties, others who follow Him of their own will ... that every knee may be bent to Him, of those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" [Isa. 45:22-23, Rom. 14:11, Phil. 2:10-11, Rev. 5:13] -- *Clement of Alexandria,* _Commentary on 1 John_ "When death shall no longer exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then, verily, God will be All in all" [1 Cor. 15:28,55] -- *Origen,* _De Principiis 3:6.3_ "What else does 'until the times of universal restoration' signify to us, if not the aeon to come, in which all beings must receive their perfect restoration?" [Acts 3:21] -- *Eusebius,* leading historian of the early church, _Contra Marcellum __2:4:11_ "A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one." [Col. 1:15-20] -- *Gregory Nazianzus,* _Oration 42_ "Christ captured over again the souls captured by the devil, for that He promised in saying, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me.'" [John 12:32, 1 Peter 3:19-20, 4:6, Psalm 68:18, Eph. 4:8-10, and maybe Matt. 12:29] -- *Athanasius,* _Expositions on the Psalms, 68.18_ "The peace [coming] from the Lord is coextensive with all time [eternity]. For all things shall be subject to him, and all things shall acknowledge his empire; and when God shall be all in all, those who now excite discords by revolts, having been quite pacified, [all things] shall praise God in peaceful concord." [Psalm 145:10a, 1 Cor. 15:28, Rev. 5:13] -- *Basil,* _Commentary on Isaiah 9:6_ "So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive." [Luke 19:10, 1 Cor. 15:22] -- *Ambrose,* _Exposition on the Gospel of Luke 15.3_ "For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual, ... but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period, according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end, awaits them; ... the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave crimes are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed them. The resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing, not only to the good, but also to the evil." [Isa. 57:16], *Diodore,* _De Oecon_ "Some among the wise and learned … have alluded to this in an enigmatic way, by adducing that God is not only just, but also merciful, and that it becomes the One who judges with justice to have sinners suffer in a measure that is proportional to their sins and then make them worthy of blessedness." -- *Theodore,* _Liber Scholiorum, 2:63_ "'All the kings of the earth shall adore him.' Some, indeed, in the present life willingly, but all the rest after the Resurrection; for not yet do we see all things subject to him, but then every knee shall bow to him." [The "kings of the earth" are rebellious unbelievers in Rev. 6:15, 17:2,18, 18:3,9, 19:19,21 ... but check out what happens in Rev. 21:24-27!] -- *Theodoret,* _On Psalm 72:11_ "Death shall come as a visitor to the impious; it will not be perpetual; it will not annihilate them; but will prolong its visit, till the impiety which is in them shall be consumed." [Matt. 5:26] -- *Jerome,* _On Micah 5:8_ "After the complete abolition of sin, praise shall be sung to God; which praise contain (implies) our being incapable of turning to sin ... when every created being shall be harmonized into one choir ... and when, like a cymbal, the reasonable creation, and that which is now severed by sin ... shall pour forth a pleasing strain, due to mutual harmony. Then comes the praise of every spirit for ever abounding with increase unto eternity." [Psalm 150] -- *Gregory of Nyssa,* _On Psalms, Tract 1, ch. 9_ Other church fathers who believed in eventual universal salvation include *Asterius, Bardaisan, Cyril of Alexandria, Didymus the Blind, Dionysius, Ephrem the Syrian, Gennadius, Hilary, John Cassian, John Chrysostom, Marcellus, Maximus the Confessor, Maximus of Turin, Methodius, Paulinus, Proclus, Titus of Basra & Victorinus.* Sources: Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ Annotated by Robin Parry edition, chapters 4-5, 1905 & Ilaria Ramelli, _A Larger Hope?, Volume 1: Universal Salvation from Christian Beginnings to Julian of Norwich,_ 2019
@@itsebudesu Salvation is like 2 sides of a coin, the first side is to accept Lord Jesus Christ as your savior in your heart, Jesus sacrificed Himself at the cross for your sins and the other side of the coin is to repent on all your sins. Don't be like those christians who accepted Jesus Christ as their savior but still live in sins.
Johnmark Henry, I can't recall anything to memory anything in the Bible predestining anyone to Hell/Sheol. If some people were MEANT to go to Help anyway, despite the fact that God's grace was given as a gift to save any and every person who would receive Christ, then God's grace would be pointless. God's grace is not fallible, it does not select certain people only to get people to receive the gift of salvation. It is possible for ALL to receive the salvation of God through Jesus's death and resurrection. If it were not possible then that would put limits on God's grace. John Piper just made a big boo-boo on this question. Don't be afraid. God's grace is not limited, His love is not limited, His peace is not limited. He loves you and loved you from the beginning of time. Shame on any theologian trying to tackle this question not truly being prepared. Because of his presupposing, it could have a lot of people believing a lie. God is not limited, so His grace is not limited, so I'm pretty friggin sure it was meant for and is most definitely abundant enough for every person who has ever lived to receive its gift. That abundant and then some. Talk to the Lord, be honest to Him about your feelings and your questions. Don't hold anything in, God can take any question youve got. You have nothing to worry about. Just you wanting to do the right thing is a wonderful thing in God's eyes. He delights in our choice to make good decisions. And no, I don't believe your family is cursed. It is.just a matter of multiple people making the same decision to consume things that are bad for them. Spend some time reading about God's grace. Reading about His love. HE LOVES YOU, AND HIS LOVE IS LIMITLESS. much love to you!!
Really... you cannot remember the Biblical teaching of original sin? And how (because of Adam) all men are born spiritually DEAD and destined to hell. -------- You must not have read MUCH of the Bible. -----
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
Here's who God will have mercy on: " *God* has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." (Romans 11:32, ESV). "The creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of *him* who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (Romans 8:19-21, ESV). As you can see, in both passages, God appears to take responsibility for man's sin, and hints at a glorious future for all mankind.
After learning about predestination, I kept getting a fear of not actually being saved even though I proclaimed Jesus as my savior I don't know why. I need prayer as I have never questioned my salvation before, but now I'm for some reason like I might say that I'm saved but might not be the cause of my predestination. I don't know if it makes sense but that is how I feel.
What I learned so far as a young christian is that if one is truly saved, it's not that sin isn't gone forever. No, no, no, true christians sin still, but if they are really saved, they start actively hating sin with all its being and feel at least some sort of discomfort when they sin again/realize they've sinned again. Like, if you've lashed out at someone, you know you're saved when you tell them that you're sorry and really feel the weight of what you did. Other times tho, repentance of a sin isn't perfect, so you may feel justified in lashing out in your heart, but you'd know that what you did was wrong in your head. Paul Washer says that just like your faith, your ability to repent truly grows too. So don't be discouraged for the times when you don't feel the right feelings :) I myself struggle with discouragement, but with Jesus, we can do it! He'll be with us all the way.
Boldly I proclaim…do I have all the answers? Absolutely no. God gave us a freewill so we could on our own freewill choose to accept or reject Jesus Christ with our freewill. True love has choice to love God or reject God. God wants true love not robots. The core problem with Pipers theology is that he downplays our freewill in salvation to make us robots because God is sovereign
Jesus predestined all of His children He created to be saved and live forever with Jesus, and only when we choose to reject Jesus, are we condemned. John 3:17
@From the Futon yes it does... people know what is right and wrong..but they are still sinners on their way to hell....but Jesus made it clear ... unless the Father calls them...no one can come to Him!
1 Timothy 2:1-6 "I (Paul) therefore exhort that FIRST OF ALL, SUPPLICATIONS, PRAYERS, INTERSESSIONS, and GIVING OF THANKS, BE MADE FOR ALL MEN, for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quite and peaceable life in all Godliness and honesty. FOR THIS IS GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD OUR SAVIOUR; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. FOR THERE IS ONE GOD, AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS (WHO IS GOD), WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." Deuteronomy 30:19-20 "I (GOD) call Heaven and Earth to record this day against you, that I (GOD) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore (you) choose life, that both you and your seed may live: that you may love the LORD your GOD, and that you may obey His voice, and that you may cleave unto Him: for He is your life, and the length of your days..." John 3:16-18 "For GOD so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son (WHO IS GOD), that whosoever believes in Him (The Son) should not perish, but have everlasting life. FOR GOD SENT NOT HIS SON INTO THE WORLD TO CONDEMN THE WORLD; BUT THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED. HE THAT BELIEVES ON HIM IS NOT CONDEMNED: BUT HE THAT BELIEVES NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD." The last verse Pastor John read is the answer to which Paul gave to this question brought forth... Notice how Paul did not give a direct/straight answer to this question, but he said "What if". I believe that Paul knew by the Holy Ghost that this answer would split and divide the Church: when the Church is meant to be a unified entity - Just as THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE ONE: which was the prayer of Jesus Christ The Righteous, that the Church may be one. If Paul did not give a direct answer, then I believe that we should answer this question the same way Paul did... because the scriptures I have quoted suggest that even though God is Sovereign, He let's us make the choice of eternal salvation for ourselves and this is His will... Even as the scriptures that Pastor John quoted suggest that God makes the choice of eternal salvation for every man as His will is predestined... This is clearly a mystery! For bear in mind that "we know in part" and that "God's ways are far beyond our ways, and His thoughts are far beyond our thoughts: EVEN AS THE EAST IS FROM THE WEST, SO FAR ARE HIS THOUGHTS AND WAYS BEYOND OUR THOUGHTS AND WAYS. But we should find comfort in GOD's great mercy and grace towards us, for His love for us compelled Him to give Himself for us!
Ephesians 1:4 God chose us in Christ to be holy and blameless in God’s presence before the creation of the world. 5 God destined us to be his adopted children through Jesus Christ because of his love. This was according to his goodwill and plan... This verse does not use, "what if." There is nothing mysterious about it either. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, He knows who is going to Hell because He chooses them to as He chooses who goes to Heaven.
+Child Boo what do you say about 1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, whose will is for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge if the truth."?
I say that it's a direct contradiction to the Verse that I presented to you. Strange that Scripture, though inspired by an omniscient and omnipotent would make two separate claims that directly contradict each other. One says that God (without "what ifs") chose His believers since before the creation of the world so it can be assumed He also chose who'd be unbelievers. The other says that it's God's will if for all men to be saved. Those two statements, whether you like it or not directly contradict each other. Also, if it's truly God's will for all men to be saved and He's omniscient and omnipotent, which I assume you believe Him to be, should this not be? If it's truly His will, He has the power to do it yet chooses not to. Your god is an awful, evil, egotistical, none to low self esteem being who demands constant worship.
+Child Boo God chose to let men decide for themselves what they want, He is just, and if He chose for us...then His Justice does not stand. I mean its pretty clear that you want nothing to do with God, so just how unjust would it be for God to force you to love Him, and to worship Him and to spend eternity with Him. instead He gave you a choice, either you want Him or you don't... and He has prepared two places of eternity for both those who want Him and for those who don't. Heaven is prepared for everyone who wants everything to do with God and all that God freely gives, for in Heaven God's Sovereign Will is done. Hell is prepared for those who want nothing to do with God, which is the reason God withdrew Himself from Hell, and He withdrew all the good things which He freely offers as well... some of those things include life, love, peace, joy, food, water, light and health... and these are left in their place death, hate, war, sorrow, hunger, thirst, darkness and pain and suffering. You choose
Dee Tee - *God chose to let men decide for themselves what they want, He is just, and if He chose for us...then His Justice does not stand.* You are contradicting the word of an omniscient and omnipotent being. I guess that His justice does not stand then. *I mean its pretty clear that you want nothing to do with God* Your particular choice of god is among the most horrible of them all. To create billions of humans knowing that they will not believe in Him, most through no fault of their own, to send to hell is a pretty horrible thing to do, don't you think? *so just how unjust would it be for God to force you to love Him, and to worship Him and to spend eternity with Him.* If it's His will, as you stated, He could just have done this. No one would be being forced. It would just be the way things were made by Him from the beginning. *instead He gave you a choice, either you want Him or you don't* No He didn't. He chose and made you and other believers to be believers since before creating Earth. Lucky you and other believers (though Heaven doesn't seem really great to me). Like me, you have no choice. *and He has prepared two places of eternity for both those who want Him and for those who don't.* Right. He has two places. One for the people He creates to believe in Him and the other for those that don't. Christian theology in this sense is quite abhorrent: The Christian God is a monster, imposing its hellish will upon human beings who have no choice but to suffer for eternity. Good thing that your god is as non existent as the thousands of gods that you happen to not believe in.
Hmmmm, interesting perspective. The way I was taught this as a Lutheran growing up is that the Scriptures say "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." So Hell is our destiny... not by God's will, but by our choice to sin and rebel against him. But God in his grace saves some. This is predestination (some chosen to be saved), but not DOUBLE predestination (some also chosen to go to Hell). Now wait a minute... if God only chooses to save some, doesn't that mean by default that he forces other people into Hell? No. God chose to save those he was able to save, but some people resist his Grace. Look at any YT Comment section on any Christian video and you'll find the atheists and mockers blatantly refusing God. He's not going to override their free Will. This is something God "can't do". Not because he lacks the power, but because it is impossible to force love. Ask any cute girl you ever tried to date who wasn't interested.... you cannot force love! Forced love Love. Love can only be freely given. Forced love is a paradox. It simply cannot exist any more than a square circle. That's where I think Calvinists get it wrong: their Doctrine of Irresistible Grace. They try to use too much human logic saying "if God chooses not to save, then by default he chooses to condemn." Nope. We're ALREADY condemned by our sins. God doesn't force us to sin. The Scriptures say, "God tempts no one." As if we needed any temptation... we do quite enough sinning on our own without anyone forcing us. God does know the end from the beginning. That doesn't make him responsible for my bad choices any more than knowing the outcome of a recorded sporting event makes the participants win or lose when I get around to watching the recording at a later time.
If god preordained everything, then we have no free will and can’t justly be judged for things out of our control. Essentially, a god that operates like this would be the one creating the sin and forcing you to sin.
Or, you are compartmentalizing God placing him into small little boxes that must fit your idea of how things work. God is outside of time and space as we know it because He is the author of it, he created everything. That said, God can predestine us for hell because He has already seen the path we will choose and so to work things out for his will which is separate from our will and his will for us, He chooses us as vessels of wrath weaving us into the story of life as it will play out exactly where He wants us to be in order for his will to be complete. Just as he knew Satan would choose his pride over God and God predestined Satan's path that he would be eventually crushed by Christ after bruising Christ's heal as it is written in Genesis. This is probably a poor analogy but I'll use it nevertheless. Think of God as a spectator standing On top of a large skyscraper looking down at a parade below and you a representation of man are standing on the sidewalk at one point in the parade watching as floats go by. You can only see what's immediately around you, but God as The spectator on top of the skyscraper can see the entire parade from one end to the other and knows exactly where and how it will end. The difference being of course that God is Not merely a spectator which is why I said this is a poor analogy, but it gives you an idea of possibly why He knows everything before it happens.
@@jamieofalltrades536 The problem with your analogy is you have God looking down through time and choosing or not choosing people based on what they do or don't do. This would mean that God's plan was contingent upon human actions, which would put man in control rather than God. This would mean that God is not really God. God is the first cause of all causes, His plan is based from eternity past solely on His own will and what man does, wants, or will do has absolutely nothing to do with it. The real question is, how can God predestine people to go to hell and yet still hold them accountable for their sin, after all, how can you possible be righteous if the creator of the universe has already determined you will be a hell bound sinner? Paul asks the very same question rhetorically in Romans 9:19, "Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will? Paul's answer to this question is, paraphrased, God is the creator of all things and He is justified in doing whatever He wants. God does not do what's right, it's right because He does it! This is why Piper says, "Let God be God". There are some things about God that we will never understand this side of heaven, after all, if a finite human could fully understand an infinite God, He wouldn't actually be infinite, would He? I know that this is a hard topic for us humans to grasp, and good Christians have struggled with it since the dawn of time but there are a few things in the Bible that we will never fully understand and when we run across these things it's best to look back to the things that are very clear and understandable in the Bible. Such as: God is sovereign, meaning He is in complete and total control of absolutely everything; God has a plan for the entire universe and everything in it. That plan He instituted before the beginning of time and is based on His will and nothing else. The objective of the plan is to glorify Himself, humans are here for God not God for humans; God is 100% righteous, He is incapable of sin in any capacity. This is a very deep and difficult subject but if you take away anything from this long response take away this: "Let God be God".
There is a HUGE difference between "PREDESTINED" and Predetermined. God PREDETERMINES what a person will choose, but not FORCE (PREDESTINE) them to reject God's grace.
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
Don't you people understand that with predestination, a person can't simply choose to surrender or come to Christ, if they're not chosen and drawn they literally cannot surrender their will and come to Christ. It's utterly impossible for them to.
So why is this even a topic to discuss if it’s literally all already decided by sovereign God? So that we can stress ourselves out? If it’s all already decided then there’s nothing to have to prove.
Honest question to any Calvinists out there. My understanding of your concept of God's sovereignty is He does what He wants because He is God. You believe that God only saves the people He wants to save. The rest will go to hell. Why do you think God wants some people to go to hell? I am not trying to be confrontational, only seeking your perspective on this. Thanks.
Im not a calvinist. But God made everything so He picks and chooses who to be merciful to at will. How dare anyone to say He cant. All people are evil. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. None Good except God. If u are the person that gives trinkets tothe crowd doing games, do u not give them to whomever you want? If that is so, cannot the creator do whatever He wants with His clay??
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) -----------
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it , “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? Romans 9:18-21
@@johnkronz7562 Paul never refutes it in the since of the elect. There's a reason why the word elect is used over and over even by our lord Jesus christ. God is sovereign over all. The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. Proverbs 16:4
I don't believe God predestine people to hell, though He knows who's going to hell. Knowing does not mean He likes it, or want it. It is still up to us. If we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and repent from our sins, we have a good chance to be saved.
According to the Hebrews Scriptures we can all rest assured that our loved our ones grandparents, brothers, sisters, friends had there sin debt paid in full. They were included in Father YAHwen's PLAN from the beginning. I praise Father YAHweh for the blessed hope.
People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that SINNERS will go to hell. Now, did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely NOT.. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
Child... all men sin. All sin is punished with eternal torment. God had mercy on SOME. That is His right. You complain that God did not have mercy on ALL. That is just hilarious. ------------
@@wisevirgin3405 yes... But some of us aren't born into fortunate circumstances like a proper church to keep us stable in our relationship with GOD...... stop being so judgemental.... You act like you know whos gonna make it and whos not....... Your being offensive..... It comes off as pride...... I also think we can choose..... Our own path.....
@@JJ_Jordan0 ... child, the Bible CLEARLY tells us WHO are the saved (wise virgins) and WHO are the unsaved (foolish virgins) at the "time of the end". And this is PART of the Gospel... it is the BIBLE that is "judgmental" (not me) Sorry if the Scriptures "offend" you... maybe you should find a "save zone" -------
Total depravity would mean that humans are completely deprived of goodness which is obviously false. Although people are sinners, most people have different levels of kindness , goodness, and love in their heart. It's all around you. If you can't see it then your religious beliefs have hijacked your brain.
@@2growdaily181 What is stopping people from being completely evil like the devil and his angels? Surely, you can't credit this to man. God's constant intervention in the minds and hearts of men is what keeps from them turning completely evil.
@@deadcell1 What stops people from being completely evil is their God given conscience and light that is within them. Some have more light than others. Human beings can be both good and evil. Even the potter needs something to work with. Otherwise, there is nothing to mold. If people are totally depraved (zero goodness) how do you explain the love and goodness that billions of people do toward and for one another , often with no reward. How are people held accountable for evil if they can't choose otherwise. The belief in Total Depravity is completely irrational and plainly clearly false. Even a child can see that.
@@2growdaily181 " ...is their God-given conscience and light that is within them. Some have more light than others." You just invertedly agreed with me and didn't even know it. The conscience people have, is given by God, any light or goodness that may be in people comes from God. How does it get there? The Lord interacts with His creation and places it there. People are not good on their own, if that's so then Satan will have the compacity to be good without God. With that said, every person has the option to choose salvation but without God's intervention they will always choose condemnation. Much like if I place 2 dishes before a tiger (one meat and the other vegetable) it has the option to choose the vegetables but because of its nature, it will always choose the meat.
@@deadcell1 Perhaps I may have misunderstood the meaning of Total Depravity. I understood that term to mean that people have no goodness in them. If you believe that people have some goodness in them, then we agree.
Let me get this straight: God decrees well before people are ever born that they will be born with a tendency toward evil they did not ask for and can do nothing about. Only God can solve it, and he does solve it-for a lucky few-by his choice. The rest, he well understands, will act evil because they were born that way. He will condemn them for being born with a tendency he knew they would have and could have remedied had he chosen to but did not. Thus, he damns people for not having something he never gave them. Praise that God if you want to and say you’re just too stupid to understand it if you want to. I think we all understand it perfectly, and that is precisely why those of us who don’t accept that we’re too stupid to understand it reject it. No thanks, John Piper.
This is the problem so many people have with God because they don’t make sense of the doctrine of sovereignty and free will… what is more important than understanding election is understanding God’s love and grace for his people and being conformed to the likeness of Christ!
"Don't belive it even if it's true."? Man if you have to make statements like this to justify your beliefs to others then I REALLY have to question whether or not YOU actually belive it.
William Lincoln I understand what he’s trying to say. He’s not saying don’t believe the truth he’s simply saying that if you’re gonna believe something make sure it’s biblical
We have to admit the reality that not everyone has the privilege of holding two truths at the same time, because of how limited our cognitive ability is compared to God's. Some people cannot have peace with both 'God predestined some to hell' and 'God is just' hence pastor John tells us we should sacrifice the first truth if we cannot reconcile both of them in our hearts.
@@williamnathanael412 We should not sacrifice any truth at all, for all truth is a reflection of our God and all Scripture has a purpose. I believe it would be better for God to subdue our hearts and understandings as well as enlighten our minds to believe all His word teaches with a childlike faith (but mature understanding).
You mean, God made them deserve condemnation and they sin as predestined without choice. how do they deserve such condemnation? This is pure blasphemy!
@From the Futon oh geeze. Ringing the antichrist bell so soon, are we? My issue with his statement was that he said "God made them deserve condemnation..." which is neither biblical nor reformed. I have a few questions for whichever of you wants to answer, and I ask this not to stir up contention but because I think we should desire to seek truth. In the Old Testament, are non-Israelites (specifically those outside of the influence of the nation of Israel themselves) predestined without choice to eternity apart from God (hell)? Do they deserve such condemnation? Was Esau predestined without choice to eternity apart from God (hell)? Does he deserve such condemnation? The question we should be asking ourself, friend, is why *any of us at all* are saved, not why some are saved and not others. NONE are worthy. NONE seek after God. We don't seek God and we don't even want to. Only by being born again, which is a work by the Spirit of God (not by man), can we be reconciled to God. It is a work by God, not by men. Interestingly, you mention that he spent 8 minutes "convuluting in order to obscure it." Nope, he spent the majority of those 8 minutes quoting Scripture. That's as clear and unmuddied an answer as it gets.
@From the Futon it wasn't disingenuous. I'm sorry that you interpreted it as such.. I don't mean to come acrossed as harsh or unloving. I have absolutely zero ill-will toward you. I suppose I get defensive when it comes to John Piper because he is the primary means by which God saved me. That is, of course, no excuse to act unloving toward a brother. I really do want answers, though. I think these are important questions. Of course, you are by no means obligated to answer them. I'm just posing them because I think they run parallel to the verses John read.
@From the Futon To be fair, you said, "those with brains and ears can distill it into its essence," essentially implying that I have neither a brain nor ears. You then implied that Piper was the antichrist. Those are both greatly provocative, and yet you claim that *I* am the one that doesn't want answers.
@From the Futon Why is that statement such an issue for you if you disbelieve that what Piper says is true in the first place? Regardless... Let me give an anecdotal example of why Piper saying that is valuable. Think of it what you wish. I am young and am a very recent convert to Christ. I have a friend that came to faith at around the same time I did. I had no problem believing in the doctrines of grace, as they were what finally opened my eyes to the Gospel in the first place, that my salvation was truly a work of God and not of my own flesh. They were (and are) so sweet and beautiful to me. I tried discussing them with my friend, and she neither understood nor saw them as sweet, so I dropped the conversation. A couple months later, after reading through much of the new testament, we had another, similar, conversation on the doctrines of grace, and after I finished explaining them to her, she nodded her head and essentially responded with, "yeah, what's controversial about that? That sounds like the Gospel to me." The point is, timing and proper discernment is important. Most believers, after reading more of the Word and allowing the Holy Spirit to shape and mold their hearts, see the doctrine in the Word and respond to it as sweet. The Holy Spirit begins to tear away our previous philosophical suppositions, and we begin to love the truths we encounter in the Word of God. Piper is advocating against believing it, even if it is true, if it undermines what the person believes about God and His goodness. I believe he is saying this because he assumes one of two things: 1. They will grow up into the doctrine/come to know it on their own (as happened with my friend). 2. He doesn't want it to cause weaker-hearted believers to doubt God or walk away from Him as a result of something relatively small/unrelated to the central, core Gospel message.
He gave us free will, he does not cause or predestine anyone to hell! Notice he cherry picks certain scriptures that he uses to support his horrid,extreme teaching, while ignoring the overwhelming number of scriptures that refute it. What kind of god would predestine millions of people to hell before they were even born! This is sick, and certainly untrue!
If you really think about it, yeah, some are predestined to hell. Cause free will isn't compatible with omniscience. If God's knowledge is perfect then no matter what we do, fate is already decided. And how can anyone reconcile the idea of a God that creates people knowing full well that there's no hope for them with the idea that such a God is benevolent? Where is the love when God creates a person just for them to suffer for all eternity in Hell? How can God love you when he brings you to life so you can be tormented forever?
"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. Is God unfair in not saving everyone? Fair would send everyone to hell, you don't want fair, we need mercy.
Margo Taux Would it be fair if you lavished one of your children with love and locked the other one in a closet? It’s not like both of those wicked little sinners don’t both deserve to be locked in a closet and beaten on a daily basis. So to lavish your love on one and give the other what it deserves is just and right. Right?
*Romans **9:14**-22 (NIV)* What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[a] 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[b] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[c] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
Margo Taux I think you’re misunderstanding what Paul is saying. He’s giving OT examples to compare with what was happening in his day. That not all Israel is of Israel. The mercy God showed to the Israelites when they made the golden calf was that He didn’t destroy them. You can read about it in Exodus 32&33. They were vessels of wrath prepared for destruction but God was long suffering towards them because of His promises to Abraham. That through his SEED (Jesus) all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. Just like God was merciful to those who believed and the rest were hardened. Compare what Paul says in Romans 9 about Pharaoh with what he says about the hardening with the Jews in chapter 11. Compare those whom God foreknew in chapter 8 with those whom God foreknew in chapter 11. Paul makes comparisons but he’s not saying that those vessels of wrath had eternal life. They had their lives spared so that God could have mercy on the vessels of mercy, which was having mercy on the Jews of that day through the fulfillment through of the promised Messiah. And not just them but also the Gentiles. That’s who Israel is and that’s the point he’s making. The potter makes vessels of use with those who repent and believe in obedience. He makes vessels of common use with those who reject Him..... Jer 18: 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. 2Tim 2: 20 ¶ But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. So would it be fair for you to lock up one of your children and beat them daily because of their sinfulness yet bestow all your love unconditionally upon the other?
Then what's the point of sending missionary to other places or why preach gospel to non believers? if they are predestined to be born again they don't even need to hear gospel at all, they will be automatically be born again.
The means by which they are born again is through the Gospel. They have been predestined to hear the Gospel, and then have been predestined to be saved through the Gospel.
@@juilianbautista4067 if they are predestined to hear the gospel there is no need of praying and sending missionary... as they will hear the gospel anyway...there is no need of preaching? etc...if they are predestined to hear they will hear...
@@juilianbautista4067 Jesus said to Nicodemus that, "you must be born again..." Jesus din't say to Nicodemus, "dont worry Nicodemus you are predestined" or "you are not predestined so no matter what...you go to hell."
Calvinism wants to assert that God arbitrarily predestines some few to Heaven and the majority to hell. BUT the Bible clearly teaches God's predestination is based on His FOREKNOWLEDGE.
Can you imagine being sentenced to death by a judge for no reason you can reasonably think of, and all those around this judge nodding in agreement with the decision saying that it’s a good and just verdict. Then the guilty party asking what he did wrong and those around the judge shrugging or saying “we don’t know but we trust the judge cause he hasn’t convicted us” and the judge not giving an answer at all to the question. I’m telling you people are going to be shocked when they see hitler in heaven.
See Adrian Rogers' "Predestined for Hell? Absolutely Not!" Also, see J. Vernon McGee's "Divine Election and Human Free Will." These two pastors treat fully of this subject, and they do so in such a way as to remove any guesswork, while simulataneously preserving the love and justice of Almighty God. Each of these men's sermons can be found here on UA-cam.
Call it whatever you like and make any excuse you want, but if you are not one of God's elect, you are absolutely going to hell. And that was guaranteed before you were even born, and even if you die as a baby and never sinned. Live with it, and you better thank God for it.
Gentiles had no hope.. Ephesians 2:12 KJV - That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
I want to ask a question. In the last sentence (in 7:05) John Piper said: “The redeemed will know we are saved utterly by grace while deserving hell and the rest will know that they suppressed much knowledge of God’s grace and they deserve to perish.” So did the ones who “suppressed much knowledge of God’s grace” choose to supress it or that God determines that they suppress it? And if God is the one who suppressed it, isn’t it also true that the real mastermind behind every person not believing in God and living in sin is ..... God himself (?) Wouldn’t that make God the author of sin? And you know, in a webpage by Desiring God that Mr.Piper had written for in the past there is an explanation for my question written by Mr.Mathis (which is actually to clarify Mr. Piper’s statements) which i am really not comfortable about that says: “God does bring sins about, but always for his own good purposes. So in bringing sin to pass he does not himself commit sin. If that argument is sound, then a Reformed doctrine of the sovereignty of God does not imply that God is the author of sin.” Source: www.desiringgod.org/articles/does-god-author-sin How can one brings about sin and not sin himself i wonder? I’m sorry to say this but I honestly sees this as a blatant contradiction in God’s behalf if this were true, and if God can do sin in order to do good, then why can’t i? I wonder if it would be wrong if i were to do it since God is doing it himself, like stealing money from my neighbour to feed poor people for example? And if so what difference would it be between what i did and what Saul did in 1 Samuel 13 (morally speaking since we both did a sin in order to do good in the end as Saul really just wants Israel to beat Philistine which is what God also wants), but it says there that God is not pleased by it so clearly that act is not good in God’s eye and surely He is not a hypocrite (which said to someone not to do something but do it himself) since Christ said in Matthew 7 verse 5: “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye” PS: To whoever reading this. This is not meant to offend anyone in any way. I respect anyone who preaches the Gospel and i certainly have massive respect for Mr.Piper for preaching to the lost. But still, i saw something that i just can’t agree on. God bless you.
I cant agree on it either, not only does it try to say no one has free will, but it makes God sound like a kid on an ant hill with a magnifying glass. I know I cannot wrap my finite mind around the way God works, but the idea that the father is the author of sin just sounds way off and blasphemous. If the father is love, then how does that show love, making someone sin and creating them for hell just to show how magnificent he is.. it paints the father in a VERY bad light and we all know the Father is just, holy, and good, and love, not what piper paints the father to be.
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned- 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Romans 5 So we know that sin came from Adam which is consequence of free will God is all powerfull so he must have allowed that to happen otherwise there is no free will. God is in infinite dimention. We know this because GOd created time space and matter So he see and knows everything that every person will ever do on earth. So my question is does God need to wait for something to happen on earth in time or because he already sees the outcome he can make the judgment to include a persons name to the tree of life or not ? I think its the latter So when we say its predestined i agree but on the basis of a person free will The predestination we do not know this because we are bound by time but God is not so he can make that call and we have to trust him on that Today many people are presented with the Gospel and they still choose to disbelieve Its on them not on God
Hey Amber, God is working in your heart if you care about the Gospel. Do you believe in Jesus' final sacrifice for your sin? Confess it with your mouth and begin to follow Christ, turning from sin. Rest in the mystery. God is good. Contact me any time. Do not be afraid!
Salvation is gift from God and is to be obtained by just believing in the finished work of Jesus on the cross(Romans 10:8-10) Don't doubt just believe that you are saved (Luke 17:20-21;1John 5:10-13)
A Third Way: Consider these three propositions: (1) God wants to save everybody. (2) God ultimately gets what he wants. (3) Some people won't be saved. All three propositions have many scriptures which, at least at first glance, support them. However, everyone agrees that, logically, at least one of these propositions must be false. Calvinists reject (1) because they believe in limited atonement. Arminians reject (2) because they believe that humanity's free will is absolute. Believers in eventual universal salvation such as myself reject (3) because of (a) scriptures such as John 12:32, 17:2, Romans 5:18-19, 8:19-21, 11:32,36a, *1 Cor. 15:22,28* , Col. 1:20, Rev. 5:13, 22:17c, Psalm 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isaiah 45:22-25, Lam. 3:22,31 and very many others, (b) "eternal" is a mistranslation of _aionios._ (c) many other reasons. Rejecting (1) is theologically very problematic. Rejecting (2) is theologically problematic. Rejecting (3) has the fewest theological problems. Gerry Beauchemin's _Hope Beyond Hell_ gives about 100 scriptural arguments for rejecting (3), and explains the true and beautiful purpose of election.
I love the argument you draw out here. Personally I don’t see how you can get around the fact that some people go to hell for eternity, but I love the argument
@@timothyvenable3336 Thanks very much for reading my post and replying. The way I get around eternal hell is my points (a), (b) & (c) above. Here's a bit more background on (b) "eternal" is a mistranslation of _aionios:_ In the dozen or so verses where hell, the lake of fire or destruction is said to be "eternal," "everlasting" or "forever," it's based on the Greek word _aionios._ If you google "aionios" you'll find many opinions about its meaning. There are excellent reasons to believe it should be translated "of an age." The adjective _aionios_ is derived from the noun _aion,_ which means "eon" or "age." Eons and ages are long but *finite* periods of time. The very literal Rotherham's Emphasized Bible version translates _aionios_ as "age-abiding." Young's Literal Translation says "age-during," which means during an age. And as for (c) many other reasons: The biggest other reasons are: (1) an eternal hell flies in the face of God's revealed loving character: "I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would grow faint before me, and the breath of life that I made." (Isaiah 57:16) "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end." (Lamentations 3:22) "The Lord will not cast off forever." (Lamentations 3:31) "He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in mercy." (Micah 7:18) and (2) God is good. God is love (1 John 4:8,16). Jesus is the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14, John 4:42). Jesus' mission was to seek and to save the lost (Luke 19:10), and he never fails. BTW, this is what most early church fathers believed. I will be posting about that in a few minutes in case you're interested.
A true Christian is scared to death by hell for anyone.
Right now im so scared that i want to cry :(
I’m literally crying, I Love God but I feel so bad for those who are not meat to receive his Glory. I don’t deserve anything more than anyone in this Earth.
It hurts to say that I am grateful for God salvation.
Let not you hearts be troubled. I used to feel the same. I was scared for people (family) that they might go to hell. What I found is God loves all of us (Humanity), died for us to show us that he loves us and he will not let us be lost sheep forever. All will be saved (as a matter of destiny). He came to save the world 🌎. God has put me at ease, I am free from that evil doctrine of hell.
Peace my brethren.
@@texantony2410 are you saying you dont believe in a hell?
@@texantony2410 how did you come to that conclusion ?
It scares me that my heart is grieving over this, because I still love God and absolutely acknowledge that He is sovereign and knows better than I. I do not want to be worldly in my thinking or prideful as if I know better. Praying for you all to have comfort in this as well.
It sounds like you are a really good, caring person. Is it good to love a god who burns people forever just because that god "claims" to be good? If a good god gave you a mind it should be OK to use it. Don't be afraid to think critically about your faith.
@@philipmunson3369. Who are you O man that repliest against God? Can the thing formed say unto the Him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus?
God is free to do anything he wants, sin is so wicked that it deserves eternal punishment. Human minds cannot grasp the seriousness of sin, neither can it grasp the holiness of God. If you sin you have sinned against an Almighty Holy God, you are deserving of hell. Please humble yourself, I used to think hell was just too much, but then as I meditated on how wicked sin it I began to realise God's punishment is good and just.
@@categories5066 if sin deserves hell then god should be the one jump into the lake of fire because he is the biggest criminal of all
@@Android-ds9ie. You are showing how much hate you have goodness. God by nature is just, therefore sin must receive its punishment.
@@categories5066 Evil God cannot punish Evil god is the one who created human beings to be Evil
People. Some things just are not meant for us to understand. Our little brains cannot measure up to God’s thought process. That’s why we just pray that HIS will be done. If you read this comment and you’re lost, just please, Surrender your life to Christ. He is calling you out of death and to a life of eternity spent with Him. Life is too short to “have fun” and to keep sinning and fall straight into hell. Love God, Trust God and His Word, with all your heart; and You, will live. His will be done. Amen.
Rocket Koala....we are meant to understand god makes people to destroy them......he is god...
Our brains and hearts can know some things about God, and we know them by His word. May you find the biblical freedom to reject that which denies what kind of God He is, according to His word, and freedom from false teaching about His word.
KT, I wasnt deliberately not responding.....anyway.... ..its our fault or Esaus fault simply becasue God said it was......we are created beings.. ..n you are right about church membership plummeting.. ..no one wants God..
I believe GOD saves people for himself,and the others are left to their own devices.some will be saved most won’t.its their choice.if you are predetermined to be saved,you are part of a royal priesthood.
The ones that won’t be saved make their own choices in life.it’s just a theory.
JER.17,9.”THE HEART OF MAN IS DESPERATELY WICKED AND DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS”
..psst rocket man......one doesnt surrender their life to jesus to be saved.. ..one believes on Jesus to be saved.. ..n it's not difficult to wrap ones mind around the fact that Jesus created all things for himself and all things are ordained and planned by the king even who gets saved and who doesn't.. ..jesus is god and does what he wants.. ..people may find it hard to accept but it is easy to understand.. ..n john piper is a wolf.. ..jsyk..
We all deserve hell. Only by God's mercy are any of us saved from it.
Jesse Gandy, God created us to be with Him in heaven... All God's children deserve heaven...Can you please give a verse for your for what you said that ''all of us deserve hell''? Thanks
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo romans 3:23 the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ.
2 peter 3:9. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Luke 13:3 but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
We deserve hell because of our sin "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)," ephesians 2:4-5
So if "you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9.
@@cjpetty1, Sorry bro., But none of the verses you gave say that we deserved hell... You wrote: ''''We deserve hell'''' because of our sin "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)," ephesians 2:4-5 =>>> You just inserted ''We deserved hell'' Why are you changing the scriptures???? It is not right in the sight of God... I was asking you to give me a verse that says, we deserved hell and you gave a verse and added a lie.....
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo Show me a verse where it says we deserve heaven.
@@cjpetty1, I did not say that we all deserved heaven... But all the elect will be saved... John 6:39 (KJV) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.=>>> How do you understand this verse?
I am a christian and I believe in Jesus Christ and that he died to save me from my sins.
Welcome to the family!
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
Just my interpretation of the scripture. If God is sovereign and all powerful with no beginning or end. He has already seen and been to the end of our time and he already dwells with us in heaven NOW. knowing who will make it to heaven from the beginning and who will not no matter how he intervenes in their life, I believe this is what predestination is in his ultimate love and wisdom. Yes even God in all his power cannot make a person turn to him and since he knows who those people are he simply determines the end from the start since nothing is hidden from him. He does not need to wait for our death to know where we will end up.
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
I think we are already in hell.
Please pray for my marriage restoration
I did
It's predestined to fail or not.
This last year and a half have been the hardest on my 12 years marriage, I'm really trying to stand back some, God soften our hearts, amen. Prayers for your situation.
How is it going now?
Who are we as mere mortals to try and comprehend the mind of God? Our finite minds could not begin to come close. God is Holy and we are completely hopeless outside of Christ.
We can comprehend His word. We can honor it above the dictates of theologians.
If our minds are so imperfect, how can we know for certain God exists in the first place? Shouldn't such a pessimistic conception of the human mind result in absolute agnosticism and absolute skepticism?
@@andyisdead We can only know so much intellectually. But we can know a person personally, can't we? A fellow human being, we only know by what we can see. But God is able to communicate to our hearts who He is, and that is what the Bible says He does, reveal Himself to our inmost beings through His Holy Spirit. A person who believes in Jesus on the basis that the Holy Spirit convicted him/her that He is real and of the most righteous, holy and good character possible, that we need forgiveness and salvation, and that Jesus's death on the cross is sufficient to save us, knows Him, but may not know very much about Him, yet. We learn, but our initial and subsequent faith is not based on our intellectual understanding, not even our understanding of the gospel.
@Curt Christensen No, I didn't. I did not regurgitate the answer you insist on, which is a lie.
@Curt Christensen No, Curt, not necessarily. God has revealed things we can understand, but naturally there's a vanishing point, where things are beyond our understanding.
For an illustration of how things are vastly beyond our ability to completely understand, look at quantum physics. Observation and the math tells them most of what they know, but most of the content that has been added is speculation. It is clearly at a vanishing point of human understanding, so they just speculate more wildly. If the first thing in knowing is knowing that you dont know, theyvare kind of failing that test, because they think the authority of "science" (meaning themselves) depends on their knowing almost it all, that they are 9/10 of the way towards their Grand Theory of Everything: just stay tuned; it's almost there. I don't believe it.
This short video demonstrates why I consider Piper one of the most underrated and under-considered theological "explainers" of our time.
For he would rightly point out he is not a theologian because nothing he says is novel or newly understood, per se, but he does explain simply, reverently, concisely and very patiently and compassionately as a man who has wrestled with these things at great length difficult, controversial and hard-to-hear theological concepts.
He is the messenger of devil
I disagree with him and calvinism but hes a wonderful man of God with great fruit just bad doctrine.
@@lionofjudahlambofgod9132 You should read Death to death by John Owens in pdf online for free, and with scripture he will change your mind. God is the one who elects, redeems, sanctifies, and glorifys us. When we say we make the final decision on our salvation, that is to say we save ourselves ultimately and Jesus just helps. All that does Is just minimizes the efficacy of the cross, and steals his glory. Jesus Died for the elect and he will not fail to gain one intended sheep. Let’s just be happy we have been shown mercy. God has perfect wisdom and the rest deserve hell just like us, just because we are saved doesn’t mean God owes the others, just means he did something good that he didn’t have too. Anyways God bless, I think that book would change your mind.
b**-This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him.
Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven?
Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
1. Scripture instructs believers to answer plainly. "we use great plainness of speech" (1 Cor 3:12).
John does not use plainness of speech, but obfuscates repeatedly in a way that indicates deception.
2. No, God does not "predestine" or pre-determine anyone to hell.
3. ANYONE can be saved if they choose to trust in Jesus Christ.
4. John Piper is inadvertently doing Satan's work for him. He's deceived, and he's deceiving others.
Every Knee Will Bow and Every Tongue Will Confess that Jesus Christ is Lord Hallelujah God Bless ✌
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
@@realtalkph. Here's who God will have mercy on:
" *God* has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." (Romans 11:32, ESV).
"The creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of *him* who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (Romans 8:19-21, ESV).
As you can see, in both passages, God appears to take responsibility for man's sin, and hints at a glorious future for all mankind.
The opening remarks that you shared, Pastor Piper, really hit home. You mentioned experincing a kind of mental and emotional torment in your early twenties, and here I am (21 years old) struggling and wrestling with many of the theological realities I believe, but find difficult to understand and organize within my full ( but always growing and progressing) knowledge of the Holy One.
*"Full" as in my current capacity, but not the ultimate capacity of the knowledge of God.
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
I don't agree with everything Piper says, but I appreciate that he's consistent. Since Piper claimed that God predestines everything, such as the tying of our shoelaces or the brushing of our teeth, it would have been inconsistent for him to say God doesn't predestine people to Hell.
I agree that Piper is consistent…..consistent in that that he’s been presenting a false distortion of Scripture and doesn’t really know what he’s talking about!!!!
@@anthonylowder6687Elaborate rather than simply falsely accuse. Defend your false statement.
Is it possible that we're just making all of this up?
@@mattr.1887 Well the good news on that one is that, say, sixty seconds after your last heartbeat you will definitively know the eternal answer. No worries....????
Yeah, Calvinism is utterly false and distorts the Gospel.
Weird how calmly some people are willing to accept that an eternal infliction of physical and psychological agony is a deserved punishment.
Even weirder that there are so many people who will not bend the knee before an Almighty God that much in charge of His universe. It is perhaps these people that scripture and Piper are talking about in this video.
@@Gablesman888if they are not predestined then it makes sense that they don’t bend a knee.
@@joshuabeiswenger2141 Predestined or not predestined, all will bend the knee. Read the verse: "every knee"--"every knee"--"every knee". Philippians 2:10. You also see this in the Book of Revelation. You can surely find the verses without my help.
One of the real spiritual weaknesses of A/P is the failure to see that the God we worship plays for keeps. I know this from experience having once been a deceived A/P myself. But we can know His love forever when we come to Him by faith, which is only accomplished through his elective grace. Eph 2:8-9.
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
@@realtalkph.Amen. Im 100% in agreement. Ask any Christian if man has a free will, and ask for an immediate answer. Then ask if God has a free will and ask for an immediate answer. It’s an interesting experiment. Telling.
I became a Christian couple of months ago, and the gospel message I was told was that God loves ALL sinners, and desires us to repent and be saved. After I got saved, I actively searched for bible studies to further my foundational knowledge of the Word. I see people saying, "our mental capacity cannot comprehend God's will / plan" "we won't know until we're in heaven", etc regarding this topic, but this has always been on the back of my mind. Maybe it's how my brain is wired? I always need to understand the big picture of everything to understand, and I can't seem to ignore this question; does God predestine people to hell? I'm tempted to believe what my other Christian friends believe; that the world has free will, and our salvation relies on whether we choose Jesus or not. However I'm struggling to search for the answer of what the bible truly says. I want to accept the entire biblical truth even if it's painful to, rather than nit picking what I choose to / choose not to, accept to feel better. And tbh, the idea that God would predestine people to hell depresses me, and makes me feel miserable. For instance, millions the babies being aborted today, that was their destiny? What's the point of protesting against abortion then? And this topic leads me to question, what's the point of all this? Why did God create us in the first place? Why bother creating the non-elect; those who are predestined to not choose Jesus in the end. If anyone can recommend me books, sermons, or offer an explanation, please do so!
Hi Ella, try "The inescapable Love of God" by T.Talbot. Interesting thoughts there to consider.
Pray to Jesus for truth and peace....let Him lead you...it's not an easy subject...we all know what you mean!
Hi Ella, praise God that you have come to know Jesus as your Saviour! 🙌 This is the greatest news! I think what might help you is to first explore the character and nature of God.... Like Piper said, he doesn't want to undermine the justice and goodness of God.... First be assured of what you believe about God before tackling a topic like this.... I think this might be helpful. Grace and peace to you on your journey with Christ🙏
You were told a LIE. God does not love all sinners.
And you probably are following a false gospel (heresy)
thinking that YOU initiated your salvation... that is not possible.
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All babies go to heaven, not even Calvinists would deny this. As for God's seeming cognitive dissonance - it's God's active decree of will suppressing His passive will. God can desire something in a sense but not bring it to pass for reasons such as glorification of Himself. God also didn't desire for sin to enter but He let it, neither did He desire for His Son to be mocked, beaten and tortured to death but predetermined it for the sake of His active will. In essence, God's commitment to His glory comes before His other desires.
I love the way Pastor John begins the episode. It’s as if he’s saying it’s better to have a bad/wrong understanding of predestination that it is to have a bad/wrong understanding of God’s goodness and love.
Yes! Better to misunderstand a biblical concept than to misunderstand the nature of the goodness of God!
If he predestines them to hell, how are they responsible?!!! If they are essentially “dead in sins” and “in bondage to sin” and are incapable of saving themselves, how are they responsible?!! They can’t acknowledge God without his help. If he doesn’t help them, knowing their state and knowing they can never choose him, how are they responsible for their own sin? This doesn’t make sense.
@TheTrinitarianRemnant888
EZEKIEL 18:30-32 “30 “THEREFORE, YOU ISRAELITE'S, I WILL JUDGE EACH OF YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN WAYS, DECLARES THE SOVEREIGN LORD. REPENT! TURN AWAY FROM ALL YOUR OFFENSES; THEN SIN WILL NOT BE YOUR DOWNFALL. 31 RID YOURSELVES OF ALL THE OFFENSES YOU HAVE COMMITTED, AND GET A NEW HEART AND A NEW SPIRIT. WHY WILL YOU DIE, PEOPLE OF ISRAEL? 32 FOR I TAKE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF ANYONE, DECLARES THE SOVEREIGN LORD. REPENT AND LIVE!”
Child, all men are born spiritually DEAD because of Adam.
If you do not understand the BEGINNING of the Gospel...
how can you understand ANY of the Gospel?
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Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
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Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
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John 6:64
[64]But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)
BUT FOREKNOWLEDGE DOES NOT IMPLY PREDESTINATION. I BELIEVE GOD PREDESTINES MANY EVENTS. MANY EVENTS THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE HAVE BEEN PREDESTINED. JESUS' BIRTH WAS PREDESTINED. JESUS' DEATH WAS PREDESTINED. JESUS' RESURRECTION WAS PREDESTINED. MANY THINGS IN OUR OWN LIVES COULD VERY WELL BE PREDESTINED. BUT GOD CERTAINLY DOES NOT PREDESTINE PEOPLE TO GO TO HELL. IT IS MAN'S CHOICE TO EITHER ACCEPT GOD'S PATH OR REJECT IT. 2PE 3:9 THE LORD IS NOT SLACK CONCERNING HIS PROMISE, AS SOME MEN COUNT SLACKNESS; BUT IS LONGSUFFERING TO US-WARD, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. JOHN 3:16-18 MAKES EVERYTHING VERY CLEAR. GOD BLESS YOU
@@mercibeaucoup2639 AMEN!
@@mercibeaucoup2639 Amen
@@JJ_Jordan0 God bless you my Brother.
@@johnfal1849 God bless you my Brother.
Please everyone pray for me I need your intercession
what do you need a prayer for
I prayed for you
I prayed
We are spiritually dead brother. And that means DEAD DEAD DEAD! We don't want anything to do with the bible or GOD. We don't care at all about our souls condition or anything relative to it. Tell someone physically dead to just have faith and get up. How can they there dead? Being spiritually dead is the same thing.It would take a act from GOD for either of those to happen , just like to be saved from spiritual death , it takes GOD to do that and if you're struggling with sin and concerned about your souls condition and afraid of the guilt and penalty of sin which is everlasting hell or anything related to GOD'S WORD , my friend you can rest assured that that is GOD dealing with you because those concerns are spiritual evidence . Because man's nature and his heart are enemies of GOD. And having more and more thoughts of spiritual things is from nobody except GOD above. It's a WONDERFUL thing to be troubled about ones soul and tore plum up, because that means it's from THE ALMIGHTY and HE WILL finish what HE starts. You are and will be prayed for brother
Every person walking the earth deserves hell. There are none good, no not one. This is why God is so loving, He gave us a way to be saved...Jesus. Everyone needs salvation. much love brothers and sisters Jesus Christ is King
I'm betting that if you were born in a country where you never heard of Jesus and died a non-Christian, you would likely think different.
max marrero Calvinism is heresy and unbiblical. John Calvin created his own Bible, a Bible in which God made people sin and proceeds to punish them for having carried out his will. Jesus never died for our sins in Calvinism. He died because God wanted to make his son suffer, even though he could save people without Jesus’s crucifixion. Calvinism is a false religion. Plain and simple.
@max marrero we all deserve hell exactly. God is Holy and just. First off Adam and Eve chose to eat the apple. God said do not eat that one apple. And what did they do? They ate the apple. That's how we are today God commands us what we should be doing and it's our decision are we going to follow God command or are we just not going to listen to him.
Jesus is Yahweh God. The bible says this explicitly all over the place. Read john 1 for starters. God sacrificed itself.
There was no apple! The fruit was probably an analogy. The choice that was made was they choose spiritual death.
I appreciate this answer. I was just thinking about this the other day and thought to honor God is to do His will.
So if He didn’t choose you to be saved and you live a life dishonoring God, are you honoring Him by fulfilling His will? Even though you’re breaking His laws and not turning to Him?
And if God chose you not to be saved but you accept Him as Lord and Savior are you going against His will and dishonoring Him?
That’s a paradox, it can’t be true. I accept that my human mind will not understand Gods infinite wisdom
Child... read the Bible:
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Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
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Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
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Great question.
That's kinda like saying " I didn't want to be late to work, so I just didn't go instead".
I understand what you mean, but study the book of Romans.
The fact that u want to follow God is a gift from God. Most people simply don’t care. God draws people to follow him. It is not in our fallen nature to want to obey God. If u want to obey God it’s because He’s drawn you to him. If you want to be saved that is God convicting you to follow him. He’s not going to turn you away when it is him who draws us to him. No need to worry about all of this elect or non elect friend if you have a desire to follow God then u are among the elect. John 6:44. There’s another verse I can’t remember off the top of my head but it basically says how we can’t follow God without God softening our hearts to him
@@healedsinner and is that putting your full on trust in Christ?
This question - predestination for Hell - has worried me because I have a hard time finding God no matter how hard I seek Him. I have this worry that maybe I'm one of the "vessels made for destruction"
Hey Benjamin! I struggled with this exact same thing for a while. The thing is, if God put you in the path to see His Good Word and His Glory, then he means more for you! I struggled feeling like i was one of those people that was destined for Hell, but, Praise the Lord, the more I spent praying and learning about Him and falling in love with Him, the more i realized that that was simply not me. I pray that he does the same for you! you have to push yourself to pray even when you don’t want to, study the Bible even when you don’t want to, etc. I would ask that the Lord forgive me for any incorrect theological ideas in this, if there are any. God Bless!
The very fact that you're trying to find God shows that you're well on your way to finding Him.
Keep on asking, it SHALL be given.
Keep on seeking, you SHALL find.
Keep on knocking, it SHALL be opened.
Jesus says"Him that cometh to Me, I shall in no wise cast out"John 6:37
Please rest on the Word of God. Don't bother about predestination. That's God's work. Our work is to trust and obey!
@@sammiejones2012 Dear Sam, those words of yours sound so blessed and sensible! I've been struggling for a year already with this - which has been the worst battle ever, a real nightmare that I can't seem to wake up from! If there's any chance I could briefly write or talk to you about it, please say hi @ diegoribeiroabc@gmail.com
Kind regards from Brazil,
Diego Ribeiro
IMO you should take Piper's advice and forget about predestination then.
Dear brother Benjamin... This is a lie a belief the devil wants to use to stop you from seeking God... God words are true he exalts his words beyond even his name and what did his word say it says when you seek me with your whole heart then you shall find me... Your question your search now should be how do i seek God with my whole heart. Am i already seeking God with my whole heart... Please don't let the devil deceive you be blessed.
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Matthew 18:14 KJV
We should delight that the Lord has a real and deep compassion for perishing sinners. Yet this longing does not govern God's actions. He is governed by the depth of his wisdom expressed through a plan that no ordinary human deliberation would ever conceive. God's will to save all people is restrained by his commitment to the glorification of his sovereign grace. I would recommend reading about the differences between God's will of DECREE and will of COMMAND. There are many other examples like 2 Peter 3:9 that can be explained with this line of thinking. Such as the Lord willing that we obey him, yet we continue in sin. Or the Lord willing that the Isrealites flee Egypt, yet hardening Pharaoh's heart to prevent them from leaving. Etc.
A Calvinist would say...I agree it's not really His will, and in the same breath will follow up with but it kind of really is.
@@aarongochnauer9576 So what you're saying is that it is not his will that they perish. And even though he can rescue them they are screwed because God has bigger things to worry about (like His glory) than the billions of his creatures suffering unimaginable pain in hell for all eternity in hell. This is the great loving compassionate God you worship...what a joke.
@@2growdaily181 I for sure see where you are coming from! It is a hard thing for myself to accept as well. I am sure there are much wiser people that could defend or even refute this, but I am a simple person, and the two things I come back to are: 1) God's thoughts are not our thoughts (meaning just because something doesn't seem logical to me, doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense to God.) I realize this is not appealing though. 2) instead of asking "why won't God save EVERYONE?" we should be asking "why would God save ANYONE?" in the sense that we love sin, want to sin, and choose sin over and over again in direct defiance to God, how much grace and mercy he must have to even save one of us is amazing. Good questions though! let me know if you have any more.
@@aarongochnauer9576 You ask "why would God save ANYONE? Here a couple of reasons. He is our creator. He is supposed to be loving and compassionate. He commands us to love our enemies and to give them water. And it is just the plain descent and right thing to do. And lastly, supposedly the the death of Jesus has the power to overcome sin, death, and devil...so Jesus apparently paid the penalty for sin but God refuses to apply it to 99% of humanity. If we saw someone dying from fire or burning and refused to help them when it was in our power do so...we would be considered terrible humans. I can't believe that humans would be more compassionate and a better example of love than God. OR THIS WHOLE CALVINIST DOCTRINE IS FALSE AND MALIGNS AND MISREPRESENTS GOD'S TRUE CHARACTER.
Twice you mentioned that the sinner has a "choice." I thought choice wasn't an option , especially if you are elect to salvation. Piper said, "Everyone who perishes has 'chosen' sin in such a way as to be truly responsible for his 'choice,' and truly guilty, and truly deserving of judgment.” So were the Arminians right in saying that God "looked down a portal of time and saw who would and would not choose him, and determined their destination based on His foreknowledge? Pretty interesting how at one point God is sovereign and can do whatever He wants, but then the choice is the sinners. Hmm...something is amiss.
What if part of His sovereignty is His choice to give us a choice? I haven’t heard about the arminians, but that’s an interesting thought. The Holy Spirit reveals truth, I pray He will answer this question for you. But if He does not, I beg you not to make the mistake of rejecting God because of our own limited knowledge. He has changed me, I am a new creature. I should’ve been dead so many times. I am testifying to His goodness!
@@nandimichel-trapaga2615 amen
You are quite correct in this point. Pastor John just needed to clarify that I think. Especially with as important of a point as it is. But think about it. If we were not able to count on Jesus forgiveness for all our sin then what would be the point of faith ?
@@nandimichel-trapaga2615 good thing I'm saved, but I do very much appreciate your genuine concern for the lost. But I will say this, inconsistency won't fly with the lost. If Piper sounds contradictory, they
re not going to buy what he's selling. He needs to be very clear about how God elects, yet man is choosing. I understand Irresistible Grace according to Calvin, but either God selected us or not. I don't believe He does, I believe in free will, not the bondage of the will.
@@nandimichel-trapaga2615 you are not the elect, I am, but you are not. I’m sorry, it was his sovereign will
Some topics aren’t meant for us to FULLY understand and that’s okay. Whatever the Bible says is true whether it seems to be predestination or not it doesn’t change the fact that the Bible says believe on the lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
I cannot support this. This flies in the face of everything I know of the living God. To think that God would create people that he loves who have absolutely no chance of redemption no matter what they may desire seems totally opposite of God's character of love. Yes, we all deserve hell and death, but to think that everyone's fate is already determined is nonsense. Why give the Great Commandment if it's already decided? Why have churches? Why have missionaries? I have much respect for John Piper and John Macarthur, but I cannot disagree more strongly.
Amen. What Piper is saying is theological confused gibberish. The calvinistic view of God is that before anyone did right or wrong, before the foundation of the world, God decided to elect people to eternal life. This being the case, then by default everyone else is part of the non-elect (whether directly chosen as non-elect or made non-elect because they are not elect) and thus predestined for the lake of fire. the Bible does teach that people who end up in the lake do deserve to go there because they face God with their sins in tact rather than facing God with Christ as their intercessor. This is where Calvinists do so why their doctrine is gibberish in light of the Bible. People cannot possibly be responsible for ending up in the lake of fire if they were made part of the non-elect BEFORE the foundation of the world and BEFORE anyone did anything right or wrong. They are predestined to the Lake of Fire BECAUSE they were not chose as part of the elect. Calvinists have their heads buried in the sand if they can't see this conclusion from what it means for WHEN people are chose to be elect and non-elect. The eternal state of both has nothing to do with anything about us but what calvinism's god did BEFORE anyone did right or wrong.
You should take a look at this video ua-cam.com/video/Daomzm3nyIg/v-deo.html
@@ronneff5894 or perhaps the Bible just contains tons of logical contradictions, this being a massive one.
@@jacksonbenzick2357 the Bible has no contradictions much less tons of them. I have seen that it is always the ignorance of people who claim contradictions that don't study the Bible. God does not predestine anyone to hell. That is a calvinist idea that is rooted in their philosophy which started with Augustine who brought it in from his previous pagan beliefs. John Piper long ago discarded the Bible for Calvinists views . it is the Calvinist philosophy that is at odds with the Bible and not the Bible at odds with itself.
@@ronneff5894 its not calvinism. Romans 9 says God predestined everybody. You are disagreeing with the bible.
@@ronneff5894 it is not unjust for God to predestine humanity to hell. He can do whatever he wants. He doesnt owe us anything.
If God predestined people to eternal damnation then the people cannot be blamed for their actions on earth
They should be pitied insted
Accept our will isn’t apart from his power. If the bible is true he can not create a person who’s will is truly there own because it would be contradictory, according to the bible he could have created us differently so our will was predestined.
Here's what's wrong with this whole predestination thing: 1) How do we know that God hasn't predestined for everyone, including Satan, to eventually be saved? Who are we to say that He can't do what He pleases? Who are we to say that God has to damn anyone? If His sill is to damn, then He will damn. If it is to save all, then He will save all. So lets stop worrying about who will be saved and damned and just worry about whether YOU will be saved or damned. Have faith. Read the scriptures. Turn to God. Stop trying to figure out God's infinite mind. 2) Even if we did determine that somehow by reading the Bible that there was no flexibility in this question and that the Bible somehow demands that God must will to damn some or many souls, how does this help me? Am I predestined to salvation or damnation? Where's the list that I can look up? Is there an Internet site with this data in it that I can look up? What if i just live a really sinful life and feel down on myself -- does this mean that I am predestined and should give up? Or what if my name is Calvin and i have a "gut feeling" that I am saved. Is this certainty that I am saved? This doctrine gives no useful advice. It gives no predictive ability. Forget it. Maybe God does predestine salvation. Who cares? Turn to God. Find faith. Pray. Do good. Accept Jesus Christ. Read the Gospel. Stop worrying about something that smart people think they have figured out but in fact they haven't even scratched the surface because the mind of God is infinite and beyond their comprehension.
Let me ask you this question, would it be OK for God to predestined you to hell?
Amen. I myself wonder what is the point of this theology. Why does it matter if we’re Arminian or Calvinist? Or in the middle? What matters is if we believe in Jesus as savior, or not.
Leave it at that. What is the importance of the other details? So we can boast in our depravity about how great God is and in the process fail to spread the gospel as He’s instructed us to do?
The more I learn about Calvinism the more it feels like a lazy theology.
Silly child... we know because we READ the Bible.
Obviously you need to READ the Bible because your question
shows you have no understanding of what Scripture says.
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I can tell you're a bit immature from your opening line, so let me tell you this -- read the WHOLE Bible, nit just the bits and pieces that seem to agree with your personal beliefs. And stop putting other Christians down. You're fuel for the atheists and Muslims. Let's work together.
@@kelseycooper5973 .... you ignorant little child.
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(1) you say in your original post (and I quote)
1) How do we know that God hasn't predestined for everyone, including Satan, to eventually be saved?
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We know this because the Bible PROMISES only the elect are saved.
The Bible PROMISES that NO MAN will ever seek God, No, not even one.
Jesus PROMISES that NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father "draws" them and
Jesus PROMISES that ALL MEN the Father give Him will come and HE will lose NONE
Jesus PROMISES the church consists of unsaved "tares" sown by Satan...destined to Hell
Jesus PROMISES that hell will be heavily populated
The Bible PROMISES that Hell is reserved for Satan and his Demons
----------------
And yet you know NONE of this and in your snowflake heretical delusion you even
wonder if ALL MEN will be saved and even SATAN and his DEMONS will be saved.
You are bat-shit looney and do not have the slightest CLUE about the Gospel.
-----------------
You show by your "fruit" that you are an unsaved "tare" sown by Satan and destined
to eternal torment. Make no mistake, you will be surrounded by other unsaved "Christians"
as well as all those REJECTING Christ... like Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics,
Secular Humanists, Pagans and Satanists.
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In my almost 50 years of preaching I have NEVER seen a "Christian" as confused and ignorant
as you. I have NEVER heard a "Christian" suggest that SATAN will be saved. Just pathetic.
----------------
Some people have the misconception of what “God chooses us.” means. It doesn’t mean that he created some to go to hell and some to go to heaven. It means that he comes to us in his perfect timing, where we need to respond through perseverance and endurance and faith during times of trial, hardship and testing. Pruning and rebuking. Discipling and chastising of the Lord.
Predestination refers to blessing and testing to determine salvation.
The goodness of God brings us to repentance. We should love and serve God not because of punishment but because we love Him for the unfathomable extremes that He gone through for us. God is Pure Love and all His judgments are perfect and pure and true and just. Work with God because you love Him not out of fear.
Child, all (real) repentance is the RESULT (not the cause) of regeneration.
---------
Wise Virgin you
missed the whole point of what I was saying
@@noahguillen2201 .... no child, I understood what you were saying.
Did you understand what I said? I think not.
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Wise Virgin I’m not your child I’m God’s child and read Romans chapter 2 verse 4.
@@noahguillen2201 .... I never said you were MY child, just A child.
And WHO do you think the "thee" represents in Romans 2:4 ?
I assume you have a POINT to make?
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As in your original post.... who do you imagine "us" represents?
--------
Tell me child, WHO loves God?
The elect or the reprobate?
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God desires that everyone will be saved. But because of freewill, accepting the gift of salvation is up to the hearer of the gospel.
To those who had not heard of the gospel, there is the great white throne judgement which one has to contend with based on God's justice, grace, and mercy through Christ.
You say "God desires everyone will be saved". If he desires it, it should be his will and plan. Is he unable to make a universe where everyone chooses him? Isn't that what heaven is? Why not just create heaven and skip the earth and hell?
If everything goes according to God's plan (Ephesians1:11), then he chose to make a universe with a hell full of people (Matt 7:14). He is ultimately responsible. Was he unable to make a universe with free will where the people who would end up in hell would never be born?
This is a being of unimaginable horror.
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7 KVJ
I could never love a being who burns people forever. If there really is a loving god, maybe he/she is using Christianity to find out who the morally compromised people are who practice and defend it. This is not meant to be offensive. Just food for thought.
@@philipmunson3369
IMO, I believe the creation process is still on going, until all comes perfectly according to His plan, the New Heaven and the New Earth is the end and the beginning of it all.
Comparing the Burning Furnace to the Lake of Fire, there is so much a big difference between this two.
Furnace is an instrument to make a useful product to come out of it. As in the case of gold and silver you can come out of a pure and perfect one.
In the case of the Lake of Fire, everything that will be thrown in it will be totally annihilated and destroyed. If accdg to Rev. 20 death and hades were destroyed when it was thrown in the Lake of Fire, so will all the dead that were judged in the GWTJ, that will the end of them, the end of their sufferiing in Hades, the place of the dead, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
For those who repented and call upon the Name of the Lord after they had served their punishment in Hades, will be saved according to the works they have done during their time on Earth and accdg to God'Grace and the Mercy Seat of Christ in the Ark of the Covenant present in the GWTJ which is also I believe is the Sheep and the Goat Judgement.
The Sheep will be the Nations in the New Heaven and New Earth. The Saints and the Prophets will be the kings after they receive their crowns in the GWTJ.
This is my understanding of how God's plan of Salvation for Mankind and His Creation will come into fruition and perfection.
I am not a teacher, I am just a student of the Bible. I don't have much svriptures to back this up. The only principles that I am basing my understanding of this is about the Owner of the Vineyard, the Sheep and the Goat Judgement, the Ten Virgins, the Wedding Banquet, the Resurrection in the book of Corinthians.
God bless us.
Let the Holy Spirit be our Teacher.
@@roderickcruz5234
So you believe in annihilation. The Bible is pretty clear that hell is a place where the purpose of fire is for eternal torment. Read these verses: Matthew 25:46, Matthew 18:8, Mark 9:48, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Jude 7, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20, 10-15, and please finish with Revelation 22:18-19. When Rev 20 says "death will be destroyed when ...thrown into the lake of fire" it seems to say death will no longer happen. Your interpretation seems to be just the opposite of the author's intent. Wouldn't a good god provide absolute clarity on such an important topic? Why the opposing interpretations? The real question is why take any of this serious? Consider for a moment what you would think if you thought critically about all of this as an outsider to your faith. Are your beliefs truly justified?
@@philipmunson3369
In the sheep and the goat judgement, which I believe is the GWTJ also, the only eternal that is described there id the fire, to serve as a memorial, as what gehenna was in jerusalem.
The problem whith conflicting doctrines that were established by various denominations, is that they did not put the end in mind.
The book of Revelation is the story about the end of everything and the start of eternity. This is where you will get the conclusion and validation or contradiction of all various preconceived views and beliefs.
The study of the book of Revelation was not encouraged during the old times when doctrines were taking its final forms.
Just like in a movie. You get the clear picture when you get to the end not in the middle.
I don't think you even read the verses. Matt 25:46 "They will go away into eternal punishment". Be careful about making the Bible say just what you want it to.
It all boils down to the scripture that says the Lord knows those who are his and everyone who turns to the Lord MUST depart from iniquity.
All men are evil by nature but from them we get two kinds of responses when they hear the word of truth:
1. Some will flee to take hold of the hope held out in the gospel and be saved.
2. Some, because of the love for sin and the benefits they derive from it, will reject the truth and be condemned.
Before time begun God foreknew everyone's decisions and predestined them accordingly. Those who would harden their hearts he predestined them for ignoble purposes and destruction like Judas Iscariot and Pharaoh. Those who would yield to the call of God he prepared them in advance for noble purposes and glory.
This is no doubt a hard concept to understand.
I believe that I am Heaven-bound, BUT even if I am not, I will not stop serving the Lord our God.
It comforts me that pastor John also had bad times about these theological issues ,im 19 and struggling with depression and anxiety about these issues
s**-This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him.
Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven?
Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
1. Scripture instructs believers to answer plainly. "we use great plainness of speech" (1 Cor 3:12).
John does not use plainness of speech, but obfuscates repeatedly in a way that indicates deception.
2. No, God does not "predestine" or pre-determine anyone to hell.
3. ANYONE can be saved if they choose to trust in Jesus Christ.
4. John Piper is inadvertently doing Satan's work for him. He's deceived, and he's deceiving others.
If a biblical teaching makes you depressed and anxious, it's not a proper teaching.
God doesn't predestine anyone to hell. The entirety of salvation is based on personal choice. Ended was about personal choice. Jesus didn't die for a predestined bunch but for the entire world to have the personal choice to make. There will be no second coming until this personal choice is given to all peoples of all ethnicities of all lands.
@@jedimasterham2 Imagine being 19 and depressed and anxious over these garbage theologies. Christians anger me sometimes in their bloviating from authority instead of being humble in their opinions
@@jedimasterham2 du selbst bist ein Lügner, ein vom freimaurerische Humanismus getriebener Weltmensch der definieren will was Gott zu tun und zu lassen hat
Get real! God is so far above us we can't even imagine how he thinks or is!
We can understand what he wants us to understand by what he's revealed about himself in scripture.
Yep
Exactly!!!
Nope. He says in Scripture we can know his ways and have the mind of christ. You cannot love or trust a god who you cannot know or trust.
Romans 9-11 has a very happy ending:
"God has committed all to disobedience that he might have mercy on all ... From him and through him and to him are all things." (Romans 11:32,36a)
God is the Saviour of ALL men, especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 4.10. Yes ALL.
Messages like this one puts people in condemnation God wants nobody to perish period.
Predestination is exactly why I am an Atheist. I specifically looked for a video about this and I wasn't disappointed. The answer Pastor John gives was what I was expecting. It was the answer I was given as a youth. Although I must state, he does a better job than the pastors of my youth. I have many objections to what pastor John said in this video. But the first and most egregious of these would be his first 'preliminary point'. He said that 'we should not believe in predestination or disregard the concept if you rightfully come to the conclusion that God is unjust and immoral.' I shouldn't have to tell anybody why facts matter... One is not inclined to an alternative 'truth' simply because the facts don't suit them. If multiple scriptures throughout the bible talk about predestination, one can't really just ignore it. It is a canonical feature of Christianity. Thus it must be judged as a whole, not disregarded simply due to the fact that it is an inconvenient concept. To simply erase this unpleasant aspect from your understanding of God would mean you are refusing an aspect of God himself, while asking him to accept you as a whole. Either it's all OK and you accept God for what he is. Or none of it is, and you come to realize conclusions far more radical than you'd have liked to believe. So what's it going to be?
His second 'preliminary point' is simply nonsensical. Although it gets to the real meat and potatoes of the issue at hand. He states that 'God never sends anybody to hell that doesn't deserve it.' But think about the logic behind that for just a moment. If predestination is correct; and considering it peppers the scripture, not even I, an atheist, would has any reason to disregard it. That means it is entirely on god for every last damned soul cast to perdition. There's really no way around that. God set up the rules of heaven and earth, presumably hell too. That means you have mankind being damned to hellfire though no fault of their own. For it was god that destined their path to damnation. It was god that designed them to falter and be punished for his designs. Like I said, there's just no logical way around that. If predestination is so, it means the god of Abraham is evil beyond redemption.
On a personal note to any who may read this, I understand if this offends you. It is a VERY disturbing and unsettling subject. It personally destroyed any hope I ever had that I would ever go back to church, or more importantly ever acknowledge the god of Abraham as 'my' god ever again. But before you challenge me, take some time and honestly consider what I have written. If you have some other understanding behind the nature of God, unknown to me; I'd like to know.
Satan questioned God's character in Eden. This whole age of Grace we are now in is a display of God's nature and character. The mere fact you can bring an accusation against an all powerful God shows his character. He allows grace when judgement is due but one day grace will run out.
You just nailed it, honestly.
@@myballsitchsomethingfierce6319 It is a fair accusation and a "good" God would never get offended by it. When a kid makes an honest question, you teach him, you don't cast him into the fire.
@@jonr9467 Mommy why are you so selfish? you never let eat candy for dinner and ride my bike alone at night. Clearly you're not a good mommy.
There was nothing fair about Satan accusations.
Being an atheist isn’t why God chooses. He knew u would reject him Hod is all knowing he knew who would accept Jesus or not he calls all of us to repent and come to Jesus but most ppl don’t wana do it I actually feel bad for the unbelieving but let’s all be real we all deserve hell bcus we are bad species and we don’t act out of Gods nature we don’t deserve his love I know I don’t God has mercy we must choose him
1. Scripture instructs believers to answer plainly. "we use great plainness of speech" (1 Cor 3:12).
John does not use plainness of speech, but obfuscates repeatedly in a way that indicates deception.
2. No, God does not "predestine" or pre-determine anyone to hell.
3. ANYONE can be saved if they choose to trust in Jesus Christ.
No one in hell asked to be born into sin before they were born.
I think often times this debate continues because of semantics. For instance... pre destination doesn’t actually mean that God forcibly sends someone to hell right??? It simply means that he knows who will accept and reject him and based off of that “knowledge” he predestines to heaven/hell. But everyone still has a choice.
1. Scripture instructs believers to answer plainly. "we use great plainness of speech" (1 Cor 3:12).
John does not use plainness of speech, but obfuscates repeatedly in a way that indicates deception.
2. No, God does not "predestine" or pre-determine anyone to hell.
3. ANYONE can be saved if they choose to trust in Jesus Christ.
4. John Piper is inadvertently doing Satan's work for him. He's deceived, and he's deceiving others.
@@jedimasterham2 Not sure 1 Cor 3:12 says what you thought it did? But I don’t think John was being deceptive, rather he’s just using scripture to justify his answer.
This topic has to be handled delicately and words have to be articulated correctly because this is a big topic, one which quite frankly turns many away from God because people don’t know what they’re talking about.
John didn’t say that not everyone can be saved, I agree with you that they can. What he said was that the ones who have been “pre-destined” to hell have rejected God in their hearts knowingly and willingly but the choice for salvation was always there.
@@joshuajackson7691 The answer is simple. God does not predestine anyone to hell.
It’s also important to clarify that Predestination is not pre-determination. Predestination is simply a reserve a destination from point A to point B.
When we are saved through faith, we become predestined to heaven, and service to God.
God’s word is clear: he passes over most and saves the elect for his glory.
The best dancer I’ve ever heard of Pastor John! God bless your knowledge and your tender heart.
2Peter 3:9 says that God does not will that anyone should perish. That means the will of God is that all be saved. That shows that He never pre-destined anyone to hell. But choices are made by people to receive Jesus or not. A person's wrong choice not only affects him but also generation after generation after him. But then again anyone who is saved is by grace. Everyone who has heard the Gospels has heard the will of God for him/her. The choice is up to them to receive it or reject it.
Basically, while man does have a free will, it is not free because of original sin. Think of a computer lacking important apps in order to function. Man lacks the app to do good works that are righteous in God's sight. For salvation to occur, God must step in and monergistically change the "want to" in the doomed sinner, installing (imputing) righteousness and giving the formerly lost sinner new desires, and a new want to. In effect, saving that person.
Lost and saved man both have a free will to do many things: conduct bypass surgery, hit a triple, have sex, hold up a bank. God "decrees" such activity in that he does not appear to interfere with the conduct, even when sinful. But the important word is not decree, but "ordain". The easy definition of ordain is to "use it".
There are no maverick molecules in God's universe. Otherwise, God would not be in control. Two big examples of this truth appear in the Bible (and many others), one in the OT, the other in the NT. The first is in Genesis 50 where Joseph tells his brothers that their selling him into slavery was meant for evil, but God meant it for good. The second is in the NT where God uses the actions of Judas and others to kill Jesus, yet look at the eternal good established in those acts.
Finally, there are many more Bible passages that support everything said here (you can look them up), but I would also direct you to Chapter 3 of the Westminster Confession. The WCF is not the Bible but a restatement of BIble truths like a really great sermon, though better.
God bless you in your studies.
Pastor John is so delightful. I can’t even fathom my great king, Jesus Christ.
Now go watch Pastor John read from memory, Romans 8!
One whole chapter? Not that ! Noone can do that! XD
@@TheJCFan ua-cam.com/video/i867dGtkIFo/v-deo.html
Thus says The Lord: By My prophets have I made My plans known. Yet that which I am about to do is done already, and shall be. And that which I have spoken from the beginning, even to this day, is true. For the will of God can not be broken, even as The Scriptures. And if My every word is Scripture, then how shall even one word fail?
Yet My people fall away, and My little flock grows smaller still. For they seek to loosen these bonds in an attempt to flee this bundle. For the Way of The Lord is not known among them, and My words have ceased from being a blessing. And so they flee back into the world in an attempt to escape, as in all times past, for they have no root.
Yet I tell you the truth, none shall escape their bundle. For all bundles lie in the field already, each one tied securely and set in its place. Therefore as one attempts to flee this bundle, the truth of the matter is made plain. For they have not departed at all, but remain in the bundle in which I had placed them at the first. I AM THE LORD.
Beloved ones, I search the hearts and minds, even the innermost thoughts I know; even from the foundation of the world did I know each one of you, setting you in your place from the beginning. Yet some will say, “What of free will and our right to choose?” To these I say: You have chosen, and the will of your heart has spoken, and thus were you bundled and prepared. For I know My own.
Thus the Bride is chosen;
My blood runs through her veins,
My image is shown upon her face...
Behold, the light of My coming is reflected
In her eyes, for I have captured her gaze,
And she will by no means look away
Or seek after another...
Therefore some are plucked from
The world already, and shall also be taken;
They shall surely be gone from this place!...
Says The Lord.
Source: trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=The_Harvest_Is_Separated%2C_All_Bundles_Set_in_Their_Places
The concept of Predestination contradicts the reality of Free Will. We automatically assume that because God is all knowing, that He has already destined everything in our lives. No... All it means is that God is all knowing. God doesn't exist in time, it is a dimension that only created beings exist in. God dwells in Eternity. So God does not abide by the laws of Time neither does he abide by the laws of physics. If we as Humans could figure out God then I don't think he would be God. What we have to understand is that not only is God Omniscient (All knowing) but he is also Omnipresent ( Everywhere all at the same time). These are concepts we will never understand because we are created beings dwelling within the laws of a physical and material world. Due to God's omnipresence He is in every mili second and nano second of time from the beginning to the end, all at the same time. So we're in the year 2022 but God is also in the year 1975 at the same time. He's fully present in our past, future and our now. Whatever decisions we make now will already be known because he also is present in the future. Our lives are like a reel before him he sees every moment and every process as it happens and he sees the end result. In other words if right now I decide to go out to buy pizza God already knows I went out to buy pizza. If I decide not to go out and buy pizza God alreadys knows I didn't buy Pizza. He didn't predetermine my actions but because He is outside of time yet in it in all its fullness he sees every action and he sees every outcome like alternate realities or watching everything from multiple dimensions all at the same time. It doesn't make sense but it's not supposed to because we are created beings.
Very good point. We have free will, God just knows the outcome
1 Timothy 2:4-6 God wants everyone to be saved and to fully understand the truth. 5 There is only one God, and there is only one way that people can reach God. That way is through Christ Jesus, who as a man 6 gave himself to pay for everyone to be free. This is the message that was given to us at just the right time.
They were predestined for hell because God already knew what their choices would be. Just because God knows what their choices would be does not mean they did not have a choice to do right and be saved. I sometimes already know what choice my family is going to make on certain matters but that doesn't mean I caused them to do that action. Every man is accountable for his own choices. God knowing those choices ahead of time does not make God unjust.
This is one of the best explanations i've heard my dude. I wish everyone to see this. thank you bro
Exactly God is timeless and has already seen our choices and ultimate choice
Spot on Eric.
Excellent!!
This comment doesn't address the main issue, which is why creating such person on the first place. That is the root problem regardless of his/her actions. In other words to be more clear, why God would create someone who He knows it is going to perish in hell in the first place?
Who am I to question the justice of God? I accept / apprehend the quoted texts even though I cannot comprehend them 🙏🏼🤗
1. Scripture instructs believers to answer plainly. "we use great plainness of speech" (1 Cor 3:12).
John does not use plainness of speech, but obfuscates repeatedly in a way that indicates deception.
2. No, God does not "predestine" or pre-determine anyone to hell.
3. ANYONE can be saved if they choose to trust in Jesus Christ.
4. John Piper is inadvertently doing Satan's work for him. He's deceived, and he's deceiving others.
@@jedimasterham2 Can you elaborate rather than falsely accuse?
@@Gablesman888 It's not a false accusation if it's true. Calvinism is 100% unbiblical, and it turns God into the bad guy who ordains people to sin, and Jesus into the bad news because most were never picked by God to be saved.
All of Calvinism is antichristian, and presents a false gospel that cannot save.
@@jedimasterham2 Again, can you elaborate rather than falsely accuse? Use scripture to prove your assertions, not blah blah. I am also challenging you to properly apply the 1 Cor 3:12 verse which you eisegeted.
You really cannot do this since the A/P approach to the Bible does not appear in the Bible at all. You just showed us a taste of that by misapplying the Corinthians verse. That's about all you got Bub.
On the other hand, the Reformed view of things is on practically every page of the Bible.
Try again if you like. Your time would be better spent on this Thanksgiving Day Eve by having another glass of wine.
Have a great holiday.
@@Gablesman888 Calvinism if a false gospel. Why? Because the following:
1. Calvinism makes salvation exclusive, but Scripture makes it clear salvation is inclusive to whoever believes. There's over 150 verses reiterating this.
2. Calvinism says God picks sinners for heaven, and picks sinners for hell. However scripture says God loves everyone, is impartial, and wants all people to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth.
3. Calvinism says no one can come to believe in Jesus (unless God forces them to believe), but scripture instructs us we must do this to be saved.
4. Calvinism believes true salvation is any sinner whom God picks to be saved before creation. However, this is salvation outside of Christ.
5. Calvinism says people must persevere in works as evidence of salvation. Scripture says we should, but even those carnal believers are still saved, though will burn up works and lose reward.
6. Calvinism makes God responsible for sin and people going to hell, not humans. It also turns Jesus into the bad news, because claim people can't come to believe in Jesus without God forcing them.
In every way possible, Calvinism is not only a false gospel, but is downright antichristian. Arminianism is no better.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
- JESUS
The early church fathers saw the issue much differently:
"Christ saves all men. Some he converts by penalties, others who follow Him of their own will ... that every knee may be bent to Him, of those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" [Isa. 45:22-23, Rom. 14:11, Phil. 2:10-11, Rev. 5:13] -- *Clement of Alexandria,* _Commentary on 1 John_
"When death shall no longer exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then, verily, God will be All in all" [1 Cor. 15:28,55] -- *Origen,* _De Principiis 3:6.3_
"What else does 'until the times of universal restoration' signify to us, if not the aeon to come, in which all beings must receive their perfect restoration?" [Acts 3:21] -- *Eusebius,* leading historian of the early church, _Contra Marcellum __2:4:11_
"A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one." [Col. 1:15-20] -- *Gregory Nazianzus,* _Oration 42_
"Christ captured over again the souls captured by the devil, for that He promised in saying, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me.'" [John 12:32, 1 Peter 3:19-20, 4:6, Psalm 68:18, Eph. 4:8-10, and maybe Matt. 12:29] -- *Athanasius,* _Expositions on the Psalms, 68.18_
"The peace [coming] from the Lord is coextensive with all time [eternity]. For all things shall be subject to him, and all things shall acknowledge his empire; and when God shall be all in all, those who now excite discords by revolts, having been quite pacified, [all things] shall praise God in peaceful concord." [Psalm 145:10a, 1 Cor. 15:28, Rev. 5:13] -- *Basil,* _Commentary on Isaiah 9:6_
"So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive." [Luke 19:10, 1 Cor. 15:22] -- *Ambrose,* _Exposition on the Gospel of Luke 15.3_
"For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual, ... but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period, according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end, awaits them; ... the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave crimes are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed them. The resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing, not only to the good, but also to the evil." [Isa. 57:16], *Diodore,* _De Oecon_
"Some among the wise and learned … have alluded to this in an enigmatic way, by adducing that God is not only just, but also merciful, and that it becomes the One who judges with justice to have sinners suffer in a measure that is proportional to their sins and then make them worthy of blessedness." -- *Theodore,* _Liber Scholiorum, 2:63_
"'All the kings of the earth shall adore him.' Some, indeed, in the present life willingly, but all the rest after the Resurrection; for not yet do we see all things subject to him, but then every knee shall bow to him." [The "kings of the earth" are rebellious unbelievers in Rev. 6:15, 17:2,18, 18:3,9, 19:19,21 ... but check out what happens in Rev. 21:24-27!] -- *Theodoret,* _On Psalm 72:11_
"Death shall come as a visitor to the impious; it will not be perpetual; it will not annihilate them; but will prolong its visit, till the impiety which is in them shall be consumed." [Matt. 5:26] -- *Jerome,* _On Micah 5:8_
"After the complete abolition of sin, praise shall be sung to God; which praise contain (implies) our being incapable of turning to sin ... when every created being shall be harmonized into one choir ... and when, like a cymbal, the reasonable creation, and that which is now severed by sin ... shall pour forth a pleasing strain, due to mutual harmony. Then comes the praise of every spirit for ever abounding with increase unto eternity." [Psalm 150] -- *Gregory of Nyssa,* _On Psalms, Tract 1, ch. 9_
Other church fathers who believed in eventual universal salvation include *Asterius, Bardaisan, Cyril of Alexandria, Didymus the Blind, Dionysius, Ephrem the Syrian, Gennadius, Hilary, John Cassian, John Chrysostom, Marcellus, Maximus the Confessor, Maximus of Turin, Methodius, Paulinus, Proclus, Titus of Basra & Victorinus.*
Sources: Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ Annotated by Robin Parry edition, chapters 4-5 & Ilaria Ramelli, _A Larger Hope?, Volume 1: Universal Salvation from Christian Beginnings to Julian of Norwich,_ 2019
The issue I have with this is that it can be boiled down to some sort of a divine lottery. We all buy a ticket but only a few will win. If then others would contest that "Well actually, you can't even buy the ticket unless God first gives you the money..." Then I would liken it to a room full of starving blind people. Acting as God, I would place food in front of the ones I chose even though they are all the same. Now I can say, "look how generous I am." The others die due to their starvation. I didn't force them to die, but since they could not see the food, they died anyways.
If man is totally unable to respond to God without Him first regenerating the man, then man is like a lifeless puppet on a conveyor belt to the furnace. Unless God pulls the strings the puppet cannot respond. Then when the puppet has his strings pulled by the "irresistible grace" he will respond and be saved from the furnace. But how does this glorify the goodness of God? The reformist seems to appeal to the mystery that is God. He gets the credit for saving and being just by punishing the other lifeless puppets who failed to respond, but only because He did not pull their strings. Keeping with this view, why not simply have those that are created perfect and created fallen, short-cut the death of Christ. Christ even said that God could create descendants of Abraham from stones. If He did, He would have made new "Adams" free from sin, since sin is passed from fathers unto their children. Then He would have a literal line of people predestined to eternal life who would freely choose to serve Him.
Another point is if man is elected to salvation unconditionally and the grace of God is irresistible then how did Adam come to sin? Adam was free already from sin with the knowledge and direct experience of God. We as Christians now know that we are not perfect and that our sanctification is a life-long process. We strive to sin less, but we won't ever become sin-less until we have new bodies. Adam was without sin until the fall. He was without corruption, made perfect in the image of God. He still sinned in the end. Does God need to send many to Hell to show His contrasting goodness by saving a few?
Instead I think that another view could be possible. Some are elect and some are brought in. The elect were chosen by God unconditionally but to others they were chosen as they chose Him. I know the objection is that then it's not by grace alone, but I would say that by God's foreknowledge, He knew those who would respond appropriately not only those that He had to override their sin nature. Paul writes in Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance..." If it were impossible for an elect to fall away then why say this at all, unless some who are saved are not elect.
Have you read much on Molinism?
The response any good Calvinist would give is either "the elect can't fall away" or perhaps "the elect will not fall away, those who do are not elect". Anyhow, I don't think that passage is talking about salvation at all. I think it is talking about unsaved people who have rejected the gospel after seeing all of that stuff. Ay any rate I don't think it's an obstacle to OSASz from either a Calvinist or non-Calvinist perspective.
Who's asking these (good) questions?! Do they want the comment section to explode?!
Dude🤣
Bruh
anyone who goes to hell cannot question God. When God came down, He did everything, no buts and ifs.
If you’re not planning to sin as you did unsaved then you are on the right path. When you sin now as a born again believer in Christ Jesus it is very painful. This pain is very hard to live with.
Please, I need your prayer.. I'm falling away from God. I failed the test and whenever I want to go back my sins become worse 😭😭😭
@JcsBee, Then hear the goodnews of the gospel: Your sins are fully paid for and Jesus has taken them away as if You have never sinned in your entire life. There is thus no sin You have which can out sin Gods grace...thats How much He loves You...it is this love that will break the chains of bondage that enslaves You.
You dont need prayer, You need to understand what Jesus has done for You at the cross.
God bless.
@@brendonburdett7015 How about the Apostasy . Im living with depression now. I cannot produce fruit anymore.
@@brendonburdett7015 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV
bible.com/bible/59/heb.6.4-6.ESV
@@jes9157 You not supposed to produce fruit. Thats Christ work.
@@jes9157 Repent on the goodnews I shared with You. God is not looking for reasons to reject You.Hb 6:4 is about man hardening their hearts towards what God has done...the rejection is from mans side, not Gods side.
The only sin is not to believe that Jesus has taken away your sin.
There are many good preachers such as Tony Evans,Adrian Rogers ,A W Tozer (even though some have died still their messages are in youtube)beside these reformed preachers.i dont like these word of faith preachers,but also the reformed theology i dont agree with at all.Jesus died for all people (1john 2:2).if you believe in Jesus,you will be saved.whoever calls in the Name of the Lord will be saved.nobody is predestined for hell.predestination and free will are both in the Bible and is impossible to understand how they work together.maybe we will never understand it.is a MYSTERY.lets leave it there.is not for us to know.Trust God.God is good all the time.whoever believes in Jesus will be saved.
Why don't you agree with Reformed theology?
Isn't this exactly what Pastor John said? That although known and set by God, it is done in a way that a man's sinful choice leaves them accountable, and we cannot understand. That is literally the essence of reformed theology
Well said, this man is twisting scripture, people beware the wolf in sheep’s clothing
Bond_Fire 007 just believe in Christ and what He accomplished at Calvary, nothing needs to be reformed from the bible
If Jesus PAID for the sins of ALL PEOPLE then nobody will go to hell...
because no sin must be paid TWICE.
-----------
You have to make sure your "theory" harmonizes with ALL RELATED
passages and not just one-or-two verses. All heresy harmonizes with
one-or-two verses...
----------------
Jesus PAID for the sins of "His Sheep"... they have no condemnation.
All others must pay for their OWN SINS (every idle word and even
their sinful thoughts). This is theology 101... why is it NEWS to you?
----------
Most leading early church fathers believed in eventual universal salvation:
"Christ saves all men. Some he converts by penalties, others who follow Him of their own will ... that every knee may be bent to Him, of those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" [Isa. 45:22-23, Rom. 14:11, Phil. 2:10-11, Rev. 5:13] -- *Clement of Alexandria,* _Commentary on 1 John_
"When death shall no longer exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then, verily, God will be All in all" [1 Cor. 15:28,55] -- *Origen,* _De Principiis 3:6.3_
"What else does 'until the times of universal restoration' signify to us, if not the aeon to come, in which all beings must receive their perfect restoration?" [Acts 3:21] -- *Eusebius,* leading historian of the early church, _Contra Marcellum __2:4:11_
"A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one." [Col. 1:15-20] -- *Gregory Nazianzus,* _Oration 42_
"Christ captured over again the souls captured by the devil, for that He promised in saying, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me.'" [John 12:32, 1 Peter 3:19-20, 4:6, Psalm 68:18, Eph. 4:8-10, and maybe Matt. 12:29] -- *Athanasius,* _Expositions on the Psalms, 68.18_
"The peace [coming] from the Lord is coextensive with all time [eternity]. For all things shall be subject to him, and all things shall acknowledge his empire; and when God shall be all in all, those who now excite discords by revolts, having been quite pacified, [all things] shall praise God in peaceful concord." [Psalm 145:10a, 1 Cor. 15:28, Rev. 5:13] -- *Basil,* _Commentary on Isaiah 9:6_
"So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive." [Luke 19:10, 1 Cor. 15:22] -- *Ambrose,* _Exposition on the Gospel of Luke 15.3_
"For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual, ... but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period, according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end, awaits them; ... the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave crimes are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed them. The resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing, not only to the good, but also to the evil." [Isa. 57:16], *Diodore,* _De Oecon_
"Some among the wise and learned … have alluded to this in an enigmatic way, by adducing that God is not only just, but also merciful, and that it becomes the One who judges with justice to have sinners suffer in a measure that is proportional to their sins and then make them worthy of blessedness." -- *Theodore,* _Liber Scholiorum, 2:63_
"'All the kings of the earth shall adore him.' Some, indeed, in the present life willingly, but all the rest after the Resurrection; for not yet do we see all things subject to him, but then every knee shall bow to him." [The "kings of the earth" are rebellious unbelievers in Rev. 6:15, 17:2,18, 18:3,9, 19:19,21 ... but check out what happens in Rev. 21:24-27!] -- *Theodoret,* _On Psalm 72:11_
"Death shall come as a visitor to the impious; it will not be perpetual; it will not annihilate them; but will prolong its visit, till the impiety which is in them shall be consumed." [Matt. 5:26] -- *Jerome,* _On Micah 5:8_
"After the complete abolition of sin, praise shall be sung to God; which praise contain (implies) our being incapable of turning to sin ... when every created being shall be harmonized into one choir ... and when, like a cymbal, the reasonable creation, and that which is now severed by sin ... shall pour forth a pleasing strain, due to mutual harmony. Then comes the praise of every spirit for ever abounding with increase unto eternity." [Psalm 150] -- *Gregory of Nyssa,* _On Psalms, Tract 1, ch. 9_
Other church fathers who believed in eventual universal salvation include *Asterius, Bardaisan, Cyril of Alexandria, Didymus the Blind, Dionysius, Ephrem the Syrian, Gennadius, Hilary, John Cassian, John Chrysostom, Marcellus, Maximus the Confessor, Maximus of Turin, Methodius, Paulinus, Proclus, Titus of Basra & Victorinus.*
Sources: Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ Annotated by Robin Parry edition, chapters 4-5, 1905 & Ilaria Ramelli, _A Larger Hope?, Volume 1: Universal Salvation from Christian Beginnings to Julian of Norwich,_ 2019
God does not destind to hell by rejecting God we choose hell
Doubts like this....really takes us sooo far away from god....😭😭😭
I know. I am so scared right now that i don't even want to read the bible. :(
@@itsebudesu Mark 16:16 read that verse brother❤️
@@itsebudesu Salvation is like 2 sides of a coin, the first side is to accept Lord Jesus Christ as your savior in your heart, Jesus sacrificed Himself at the cross for your sins and the other side of the coin is to repent on all your sins. Don't be like those christians who accepted Jesus Christ as their savior but still live in sins.
Johnmark Henry, I can't recall anything to memory anything in the Bible predestining anyone to Hell/Sheol. If some people were MEANT to go to Help anyway, despite the fact that God's grace was given as a gift to save any and every person who would receive Christ, then God's grace would be pointless. God's grace is not fallible, it does not select certain people only to get people to receive the gift of salvation. It is possible for ALL to receive the salvation of God through Jesus's death and resurrection. If it were not possible then that would put limits on God's grace. John Piper just made a big boo-boo on this question. Don't be afraid. God's grace is not limited, His love is not limited, His peace is not limited. He loves you and loved you from the beginning of time. Shame on any theologian trying to tackle this question not truly being prepared. Because of his presupposing, it could have a lot of people believing a lie. God is not limited, so His grace is not limited, so I'm pretty friggin sure it was meant for and is most definitely abundant enough for every person who has ever lived to receive its gift. That abundant and then some. Talk to the Lord, be honest to Him about your feelings and your questions. Don't hold anything in, God can take any question youve got. You have nothing to worry about. Just you wanting to do the right thing is a wonderful thing in God's eyes. He delights in our choice to make good decisions. And no, I don't believe your family is cursed. It is.just a matter of multiple people making the same decision to consume things that are bad for them. Spend some time reading about God's grace. Reading about His love. HE LOVES YOU, AND HIS LOVE IS LIMITLESS. much love to you!!
Jesus said...no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them... predestination is very scriptural..
Really... you cannot remember the Biblical teaching of original sin?
And how (because of Adam) all men are born spiritually DEAD and
destined to hell.
--------
You must not have read MUCH of the Bible.
-----
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
Here's who God will have mercy on:
" *God* has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." (Romans 11:32, ESV).
"The creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of *him* who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (Romans 8:19-21, ESV).
As you can see, in both passages, God appears to take responsibility for man's sin, and hints at a glorious future for all mankind.
They can’t “suppress knowledge” (7:14) because his view leaves zero room for meaningful choice or free will
No one deserves to be in hell for eternity regardless of what ever bad things they did.
After learning about predestination, I kept getting a fear of not actually being saved even though I proclaimed Jesus as my savior I don't know why. I need prayer as I have never questioned my salvation before, but now I'm for some reason like I might say that I'm saved but might not be the cause of my predestination. I don't know if it makes sense but that is how I feel.
You should check out Paul Washer on assurance of Salvation. Blessings to you.
What I learned so far as a young christian is that if one is truly saved, it's not that sin isn't gone forever. No, no, no, true christians sin still, but if they are really saved, they start actively hating sin with all its being and feel at least some sort of discomfort when they sin again/realize they've sinned again. Like, if you've lashed out at someone, you know you're saved when you tell them that you're sorry and really feel the weight of what you did. Other times tho, repentance of a sin isn't perfect, so you may feel justified in lashing out in your heart, but you'd know that what you did was wrong in your head. Paul Washer says that just like your faith, your ability to repent truly grows too. So don't be discouraged for the times when you don't feel the right feelings :) I myself struggle with discouragement, but with Jesus, we can do it! He'll be with us all the way.
Boldly I proclaim…do I have all the answers? Absolutely no. God gave us a freewill so we could on our own freewill choose to accept or reject Jesus Christ with our freewill. True love has choice to love God or reject God. God wants true love not robots. The core problem with Pipers theology is that he downplays our freewill in salvation to make us robots because God is sovereign
Jesus predestined all of His children He created to be saved and live forever with Jesus, and only when we choose to reject Jesus, are we condemned. John 3:17
We all make our own choices, and the Lord is all knowing and ALREADY knows which choices we will make.
That's not true according to Scripture....we are chosen... predestined!
@From the Futon God gave each of us a conscience to know right from wrong...and gave us laws...
@From the Futon yes it does... people know what is right and wrong..but they are still sinners on their way to hell....but Jesus made it clear ... unless the Father calls them...no one can come to Him!
@From the Futon whose my hero?...
@From the Futon I explained it to you clearly...reread what I wrote!
1 Timothy 2:1-6 "I (Paul) therefore exhort that FIRST OF ALL, SUPPLICATIONS, PRAYERS, INTERSESSIONS, and GIVING OF THANKS, BE MADE FOR ALL MEN, for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quite and peaceable life in all Godliness and honesty. FOR THIS IS GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD OUR SAVIOUR; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. FOR THERE IS ONE GOD, AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS (WHO IS GOD), WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time."
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 "I (GOD) call Heaven and Earth to record this day against you, that I (GOD) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore (you) choose life, that both you and your seed may live: that you may love the LORD your GOD, and that you may obey His voice, and that you may cleave unto Him: for He is your life, and the length of your days..."
John 3:16-18 "For GOD so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son (WHO IS GOD), that whosoever believes in Him (The Son) should not perish, but have everlasting life. FOR GOD SENT NOT HIS SON INTO THE WORLD TO CONDEMN THE WORLD; BUT THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED. HE THAT BELIEVES ON HIM IS NOT CONDEMNED: BUT HE THAT BELIEVES NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD."
The last verse Pastor John read is the answer to which Paul gave to this question brought forth... Notice how Paul did not give a direct/straight answer to this question, but he said "What if". I believe that Paul knew by the Holy Ghost that this answer would split and divide the Church: when the Church is meant to be a unified entity - Just as THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE ONE: which was the prayer of Jesus Christ The Righteous, that the Church may be one.
If Paul did not give a direct answer, then I believe that we should answer this question the same way Paul did... because the scriptures I have quoted suggest that even though God is Sovereign, He let's us make the choice of eternal salvation for ourselves and this is His will... Even as the scriptures that Pastor John quoted suggest that God makes the choice of eternal salvation for every man as His will is predestined...
This is clearly a mystery! For bear in mind that "we know in part" and that "God's ways are far beyond our ways, and His thoughts are far beyond our thoughts: EVEN AS THE EAST IS FROM THE WEST, SO FAR ARE HIS THOUGHTS AND WAYS BEYOND OUR THOUGHTS AND WAYS. But we should find comfort in GOD's great mercy and grace towards us, for His love for us compelled Him to give Himself for us!
Ephesians 1:4 God chose us in Christ to be holy and blameless in God’s presence before the creation of the world. 5 God destined us to be his adopted children through Jesus Christ because of his love. This was according to his goodwill and plan...
This verse does not use, "what if." There is nothing mysterious about it either. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, He knows who is going to Hell because He chooses them to as He chooses who goes to Heaven.
+Child Boo what do you say about 1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, whose will is for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge if the truth."?
I say that it's a direct contradiction to the Verse that I presented to you. Strange that Scripture, though inspired by an omniscient and omnipotent would make two separate claims that directly contradict each other.
One says that God (without "what ifs") chose His believers since before the creation of the world so it can be assumed He also chose who'd be unbelievers. The other says that it's God's will if for all men to be saved. Those two statements, whether you like it or not directly contradict each other.
Also, if it's truly God's will for all men to be saved and He's omniscient and omnipotent, which I assume you believe Him to be, should this not be? If it's truly His will, He has the power to do it yet chooses not to. Your god is an awful, evil, egotistical, none to low self esteem being who demands constant worship.
+Child Boo God chose to let men decide for themselves what they want, He is just, and if He chose for us...then His Justice does not stand. I mean its pretty clear that you want nothing to do with God, so just how unjust would it be for God to force you to love Him, and to worship Him and to spend eternity with Him.
instead He gave you a choice, either you want Him or you don't... and He has prepared two places of eternity for both those who want Him and for those who don't. Heaven is prepared for everyone who wants everything to do with God and all that God freely gives, for in Heaven God's Sovereign Will is done. Hell is prepared for those who want nothing to do with God, which is the reason God withdrew Himself from Hell, and He withdrew all the good things which He freely offers as well... some of those things include life, love, peace, joy, food, water, light and health... and these are left in their place death, hate, war, sorrow, hunger, thirst, darkness and pain and suffering.
You choose
Dee Tee -
*God chose to let men decide for themselves what they want, He is just, and if He chose for us...then His Justice does not stand.*
You are contradicting the word of an omniscient and omnipotent being. I guess that His justice does not stand then.
*I mean its pretty clear that you want nothing to do with God*
Your particular choice of god is among the most horrible of them all. To create billions of humans knowing that they will not believe in Him, most through no fault of their own, to send to hell is a pretty horrible thing to do, don't you think?
*so just how unjust would it be for God to force you to love Him, and to worship Him and to spend eternity with Him.*
If it's His will, as you stated, He could just have done this. No one would be being forced. It would just be the way things were made by Him from the beginning.
*instead He gave you a choice, either you want Him or you don't*
No He didn't. He chose and made you and other believers to be believers since before creating Earth. Lucky you and other believers (though Heaven doesn't seem really great to me). Like me, you have no choice.
*and He has prepared two places of eternity for both those who want Him and for those who don't.*
Right. He has two places. One for the people He creates to believe in Him and the other for those that don't. Christian theology in this sense is quite abhorrent: The Christian God is a monster, imposing its hellish will upon human beings who have no choice but to suffer for eternity. Good thing that your god is as non existent as the thousands of gods that you happen to not believe in.
Hmmmm, interesting perspective.
The way I was taught this as a Lutheran growing up is that the Scriptures say "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." So Hell is our destiny... not by God's will, but by our choice to sin and rebel against him. But God in his grace saves some. This is predestination (some chosen to be saved), but not DOUBLE predestination (some also chosen to go to Hell).
Now wait a minute... if God only chooses to save some, doesn't that mean by default that he forces other people into Hell? No. God chose to save those he was able to save, but some people resist his Grace. Look at any YT Comment section on any Christian video and you'll find the atheists and mockers blatantly refusing God. He's not going to override their free Will. This is something God "can't do". Not because he lacks the power, but because it is impossible to force love. Ask any cute girl you ever tried to date who wasn't interested.... you cannot force love! Forced love Love. Love can only be freely given. Forced love is a paradox. It simply cannot exist any more than a square circle.
That's where I think Calvinists get it wrong: their Doctrine of Irresistible Grace. They try to use too much human logic saying "if God chooses not to save, then by default he chooses to condemn." Nope. We're ALREADY condemned by our sins. God doesn't force us to sin. The Scriptures say, "God tempts no one." As if we needed any temptation... we do quite enough sinning on our own without anyone forcing us.
God does know the end from the beginning. That doesn't make him responsible for my bad choices any more than knowing the outcome of a recorded sporting event makes the participants win or lose when I get around to watching the recording at a later time.
It’s a seeming paradox. Simple as that. I like how he said that the way in which God predestines people to Hell is probably inscrutable to us.
If god preordained everything, then we have no free will and can’t justly be judged for things out of our control. Essentially, a god that operates like this would be the one creating the sin and forcing you to sin.
Or, you are compartmentalizing God placing him into small little boxes that must fit your idea of how things work. God is outside of time and space as we know it because He is the author of it, he created everything. That said, God can predestine us for hell because He has already seen the path we will choose and so to work things out for his will which is separate from our will and his will for us, He chooses us as vessels of wrath weaving us into the story of life as it will play out exactly where He wants us to be in order for his will to be complete. Just as he knew Satan would choose his pride over God and God predestined Satan's path that he would be eventually crushed by Christ after bruising Christ's heal as it is written in Genesis. This is probably a poor analogy but I'll use it nevertheless. Think of God as a spectator standing On top of a large skyscraper looking down at a parade below and you a representation of man are standing on the sidewalk at one point in the parade watching as floats go by. You can only see what's immediately around you, but God as The spectator on top of the skyscraper can see the entire parade from one end to the other and knows exactly where and how it will end. The difference being of course that God is Not merely a spectator which is why I said this is a poor analogy, but it gives you an idea of possibly why He knows everything before it happens.
@@jamieofalltrades536 The problem with your analogy is you have God looking down through time and choosing or not choosing people based on what they do or don't do. This would mean that God's plan was contingent upon human actions, which would put man in control rather than God. This would mean that God is not really God. God is the first cause of all causes, His plan is based from eternity past solely on His own will and what man does, wants, or will do has absolutely nothing to do with it. The real question is, how can God predestine people to go to hell and yet still hold them accountable for their sin, after all, how can you possible be righteous if the creator of the universe has already determined you will be a hell bound sinner? Paul asks the very same question rhetorically in Romans 9:19, "Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will? Paul's answer to this question is, paraphrased, God is the creator of all things and He is justified in doing whatever He wants. God does not do what's right, it's right because He does it! This is why Piper says, "Let God be God". There are some things about God that we will never understand this side of heaven, after all, if a finite human could fully understand an infinite God, He wouldn't actually be infinite, would He? I know that this is a hard topic for us humans to grasp, and good Christians have struggled with it since the dawn of time but there are a few things in the Bible that we will never fully understand and when we run across these things it's best to look back to the things that are very clear and understandable in the Bible. Such as: God is sovereign, meaning He is in complete and total control of absolutely everything; God has a plan for the entire universe and everything in it. That plan He instituted before the beginning of time and is based on His will and nothing else. The objective of the plan is to glorify Himself, humans are here for God not God for humans; God is 100% righteous, He is incapable of sin in any capacity. This is a very deep and difficult subject but if you take away anything from this long response take away this: "Let God be God".
Read Romans 9
wer bist du das du mit Gott rechten willst...genau solche Stellen beziehen sich auf Leute wie dich, die sich erheben und meinen es besser zu wissen
There is a HUGE difference between "PREDESTINED" and Predetermined.
God PREDETERMINES what a person will choose, but not FORCE (PREDESTINE) them to reject God's grace.
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
No. All things are both predestined and predetermined.
Don't you people understand that with predestination, a person can't simply choose to surrender or come to Christ, if they're not chosen and drawn they literally cannot surrender their will and come to Christ. It's utterly impossible for them to.
Exactly. How can a dead spirit make a decision. God initiates EVERYTHING!
So why is this even a topic to discuss if it’s literally all already decided by sovereign God? So that we can stress ourselves out? If it’s all already decided then there’s nothing to have to prove.
Yes, that is the Glory of the Gospel... GOD ALONE is Sovereign.
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Honest question to any Calvinists out there. My understanding of your concept of God's sovereignty is He does what He wants because He is God. You believe that God only saves the people He wants to save. The rest will go to hell. Why do you think God wants some people to go to hell? I am not trying to be confrontational, only seeking your perspective on this. Thanks.
Im not a calvinist. But God made everything so He picks and chooses who to be merciful to at will. How dare anyone to say He cant. All people are evil. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. None Good except God.
If u are the person that gives trinkets tothe crowd doing games, do u not give them to whomever you want? If that is so, cannot the creator do whatever He wants with His clay??
Jacob and Esau were reconciled. Esau was never damned.
John Kronz that’s a good point
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
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Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it , “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Romans 9:18-21
@@RealGeorgeyWashington keep reading to chapter 11. Paul ultimately refutes the whole “vessels of wrath” proposition.
@@johnkronz7562 Paul never refutes it in the since of the elect. There's a reason why the word elect is used over and over even by our lord Jesus christ. God is sovereign over all.
The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Proverbs 16:4
I don't believe God predestine people to hell, though He knows who's going to hell. Knowing does not mean He likes it, or want it. It is still up to us. If we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and repent from our sins, we have a good chance to be saved.
What is the Calvinist interpretation of:
"And I [Jesus], when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (John 12:32)
According to the Hebrews Scriptures we can all rest assured that our loved our ones grandparents, brothers, sisters, friends had there sin debt paid in full. They were included in Father YAHwen's PLAN from the beginning. I praise Father YAHweh for the blessed hope.
People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that SINNERS will go to hell.
Now, did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely NOT.. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
If someone is truly guilty by their wrong choices then how does that balance with predestination??
It is possible that God; seeing the end to the beginning knows in what we percieve to be the past.
Child... all men sin. All sin is punished with eternal torment.
God had mercy on SOME. That is His right. You complain that
God did not have mercy on ALL. That is just hilarious.
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@@wisevirgin3405 yes... But some of us aren't born into fortunate circumstances like a proper church to keep us stable in our relationship with GOD......
stop being so judgemental.... You act like you know whos gonna make it and whos not.......
Your being offensive.....
It comes off as pride......
I also think we can choose..... Our own path.....
@@JJ_Jordan0 ... child, the Bible CLEARLY tells us WHO are the saved
(wise virgins) and WHO are the unsaved (foolish virgins) at the "time of the end".
And this is PART of the Gospel... it is the BIBLE that is "judgmental" (not me)
Sorry if the Scriptures "offend" you... maybe you should find a "save zone"
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@@wisevirgin3405 save zone?
I have been trying my whole life to follow GOD :)
It gets hard sometimes tho.....
If you believe in total depravity, then you must believe in predestination
Total depravity would mean that humans are completely deprived of goodness which is obviously false. Although people are sinners, most people have different levels of kindness , goodness, and love in their heart. It's all around you. If you can't see it then your religious beliefs have hijacked your brain.
@@2growdaily181 What is stopping people from being completely evil like the devil and his angels? Surely, you can't credit this to man. God's constant intervention in the minds and hearts of men is what keeps from them turning completely evil.
@@deadcell1 What stops people from being completely evil is their God given conscience and light that is within them. Some have more light than others. Human beings can be both good and evil. Even the potter needs something to work with. Otherwise, there is nothing to mold. If people are totally depraved (zero goodness) how do you explain the love and goodness that billions of people do toward and for one another , often with no reward. How are people held accountable for evil if they can't choose otherwise. The belief in Total Depravity is completely irrational and plainly clearly false. Even a child can see that.
@@2growdaily181 " ...is their God-given conscience and light that is within them. Some have more light than others."
You just invertedly agreed with me and didn't even know it. The conscience people have, is given by God, any light or goodness that may be in people comes from God. How does it get there? The Lord interacts with His creation and places it there. People are not good on their own, if that's so then Satan will have the compacity to be good without God. With that said, every person has the option to choose salvation but without God's intervention they will always choose condemnation. Much like if I place 2 dishes before a tiger (one meat and the other vegetable) it has the option to choose the vegetables but because of its nature, it will always choose the meat.
@@deadcell1 Perhaps I may have misunderstood the meaning of Total Depravity. I understood that term to mean that people have no goodness in them. If you believe that people have some goodness in them, then we agree.
"Don't believe the truth" might as well be the pre-amble for all Christian teaching.
Let me get this straight: God decrees well before people are ever born that they will be born with a tendency toward evil they did not ask for and can do nothing about. Only God can solve it, and he does solve it-for a lucky few-by his choice. The rest, he well understands, will act evil because they were born that way. He will condemn them for being born with a tendency he knew they would have and could have remedied had he chosen to but did not. Thus, he damns people for not having something he never gave them.
Praise that God if you want to and say you’re just too stupid to understand it if you want to. I think we all understand it perfectly, and that is precisely why those of us who don’t accept that we’re too stupid to understand it reject it. No thanks, John Piper.
This why I don’t subscribe to the Calvinist ideology
Brother it’s better to just love Christ and develop a good faith based relationship with him then to fall to the dogma of Calvinism
This is the problem so many people have with God because they don’t make sense of the doctrine of sovereignty and free will… what is more important than understanding election is understanding God’s love and grace for his people and being conformed to the likeness of Christ!
"Don't belive it even if it's true."? Man if you have to make statements like this to justify your beliefs to others then I REALLY have to question whether or not YOU actually belive it.
William Lincoln I understand what he’s trying to say. He’s not saying don’t believe the truth he’s simply saying that if you’re gonna believe something make sure it’s biblical
We have to admit the reality that not everyone has the privilege of holding two truths at the same time, because of how limited our cognitive ability is compared to God's. Some people cannot have peace with both 'God predestined some to hell' and 'God is just' hence pastor John tells us we should sacrifice the first truth if we cannot reconcile both of them in our hearts.
@@williamnathanael412 We should not sacrifice any truth at all, for all truth is a reflection of our God and all Scripture has a purpose. I believe it would be better for God to subdue our hearts and understandings as well as enlighten our minds to believe all His word teaches with a childlike faith (but mature understanding).
Even he understands it's bullshit and nonsensical but expects people to ignore it anyways.
You mean, God made them deserve condemnation and they sin as predestined without choice. how do they deserve such condemnation? This is pure blasphemy!
"God made them deserve condemnation and they sin as predestined without choice."
Piper never said that, friend.
@From the Futon oh geeze. Ringing the antichrist bell so soon, are we?
My issue with his statement was that he said "God made them deserve condemnation..." which is neither biblical nor reformed.
I have a few questions for whichever of you wants to answer, and I ask this not to stir up contention but because I think we should desire to seek truth.
In the Old Testament, are non-Israelites (specifically those outside of the influence of the nation of Israel themselves) predestined without choice to eternity apart from God (hell)? Do they deserve such condemnation?
Was Esau predestined without choice to eternity apart from God (hell)? Does he deserve such condemnation?
The question we should be asking ourself, friend, is why *any of us at all* are saved, not why some are saved and not others. NONE are worthy. NONE seek after God. We don't seek God and we don't even want to. Only by being born again, which is a work by the Spirit of God (not by man), can we be reconciled to God. It is a work by God, not by men.
Interestingly, you mention that he spent 8 minutes "convuluting in order to obscure it." Nope, he spent the majority of those 8 minutes quoting Scripture. That's as clear and unmuddied an answer as it gets.
@From the Futon it wasn't disingenuous. I'm sorry that you interpreted it as such.. I don't mean to come acrossed as harsh or unloving. I have absolutely zero ill-will toward you. I suppose I get defensive when it comes to John Piper because he is the primary means by which God saved me. That is, of course, no excuse to act unloving toward a brother.
I really do want answers, though. I think these are important questions. Of course, you are by no means obligated to answer them. I'm just posing them because I think they run parallel to the verses John read.
@From the Futon To be fair, you said, "those with brains and ears can distill it into its essence," essentially implying that I have neither a brain nor ears. You then implied that Piper was the antichrist. Those are both greatly provocative, and yet you claim that *I* am the one that doesn't want answers.
@From the Futon Why is that statement such an issue for you if you disbelieve that what Piper says is true in the first place?
Regardless... Let me give an anecdotal example of why Piper saying that is valuable. Think of it what you wish.
I am young and am a very recent convert to Christ. I have a friend that came to faith at around the same time I did. I had no problem believing in the doctrines of grace, as they were what finally opened my eyes to the Gospel in the first place, that my salvation was truly a work of God and not of my own flesh. They were (and are) so sweet and beautiful to me. I tried discussing them with my friend, and she neither understood nor saw them as sweet, so I dropped the conversation. A couple months later, after reading through much of the new testament, we had another, similar, conversation on the doctrines of grace, and after I finished explaining them to her, she nodded her head and essentially responded with, "yeah, what's controversial about that? That sounds like the Gospel to me."
The point is, timing and proper discernment is important. Most believers, after reading more of the Word and allowing the Holy Spirit to shape and mold their hearts, see the doctrine in the Word and respond to it as sweet. The Holy Spirit begins to tear away our previous philosophical suppositions, and we begin to love the truths we encounter in the Word of God.
Piper is advocating against believing it, even if it is true, if it undermines what the person believes about God and His goodness. I believe he is saying this because he assumes one of two things:
1. They will grow up into the doctrine/come to know it on their own (as happened with my friend).
2. He doesn't want it to cause weaker-hearted believers to doubt God or walk away from Him as a result of something relatively small/unrelated to the central, core Gospel message.
He gave us free will, he does not cause or predestine anyone to hell! Notice he cherry picks certain scriptures that he uses to support his horrid,extreme teaching, while ignoring the overwhelming number of scriptures that refute it. What kind of god would predestine millions of people to hell before they were even born! This is sick, and certainly untrue!
This comment really irritates me
If you really think about it, yeah, some are predestined to hell. Cause free will isn't compatible with omniscience.
If God's knowledge is perfect then no matter what we do, fate is already decided. And how can anyone reconcile the idea of a God that creates people knowing full well that there's no hope for them with the idea that such a God is benevolent?
Where is the love when God creates a person just for them to suffer for all eternity in Hell? How can God love you when he brings you to life so you can be tormented forever?
Omg thank you how can anyone see God as good if he only created us for the purpose of suffering how delusional can someone be
"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. Is God unfair in not saving everyone? Fair would send everyone to hell, you don't want fair, we need mercy.
Margo Taux
Would it be fair if you lavished one of your children with love and locked the other one in a closet?
It’s not like both of those wicked little sinners don’t both deserve to be locked in a closet and beaten on a daily basis. So to lavish your love on one and give the other what it deserves is just and right. Right?
*Romans **9:14**-22 (NIV)*
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[a]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[b] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[c] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
Margo Taux
I think you’re misunderstanding what Paul is saying. He’s giving OT examples to compare with what was happening in his day. That not all Israel is of Israel.
The mercy God showed to the Israelites when they made the golden calf was that He didn’t destroy them. You can read about it in Exodus 32&33.
They were vessels of wrath prepared for destruction but God was long suffering towards them because of His promises to Abraham. That through his SEED (Jesus) all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. Just like God was merciful to those who believed and the rest were hardened.
Compare what Paul says in Romans 9 about Pharaoh with what he says about the hardening with the Jews in chapter 11. Compare those whom God foreknew in chapter 8 with those whom God foreknew in chapter 11.
Paul makes comparisons but he’s not saying that those vessels of wrath had eternal life. They had their lives spared so that God could have mercy on the vessels of mercy, which was having mercy on the Jews of that day through the fulfillment through of the promised Messiah.
And not just them but also the Gentiles. That’s who Israel is and that’s the point he’s making.
The potter makes vessels of use with those who repent and believe in obedience. He makes vessels of common use with those who reject Him.....
Jer 18: 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
2Tim 2: 20 ¶ But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
So would it be fair for you to lock up one of your children and beat them daily because of their sinfulness yet bestow all your love unconditionally upon the other?
@@evanu6579 why you people are afraid of this monster this is not a God
dog eater
I’m not sure what you’re asking. I’m not a Calvinist if that’s what you’re implying.
Then what's the point of sending missionary to other places or why preach gospel to non believers? if they are predestined to be born again they don't even need to hear gospel at all, they will be automatically be born again.
The means by which they are born again is through the Gospel. They have been predestined to hear the Gospel, and then have been predestined to be saved through the Gospel.
@@juilianbautista4067 if they are predestined to hear the gospel there is no need of praying and sending missionary... as they will hear the gospel anyway...there is no need of preaching? etc...if they are predestined to hear they will hear...
@@juilianbautista4067 Jesus said to Nicodemus that, "you must be born again..." Jesus din't say to Nicodemus, "dont worry Nicodemus you are predestined" or "you are not predestined so no matter what...you go to hell."
They are predestined but apparently they need our intervention as well which I guess that’s predestined too?
Calvinism wants to assert that God arbitrarily predestines some few to Heaven and the majority to hell. BUT the Bible clearly teaches God's predestination is based on His FOREKNOWLEDGE.
John, unlike me, has never sat in a courtroom at sentencing. I invite him to visit a courtroom from jury selection to final judgment.
Can you imagine being sentenced to death by a judge for no reason you can reasonably think of, and all those around this judge nodding in agreement with the decision saying that it’s a good and just verdict. Then the guilty party asking what he did wrong and those around the judge shrugging or saying “we don’t know but we trust the judge cause he hasn’t convicted us” and the judge not giving an answer at all to the question. I’m telling you people are going to be shocked when they see hitler in heaven.
See Adrian Rogers' "Predestined for Hell? Absolutely Not!" Also, see J. Vernon McGee's "Divine Election and Human Free Will." These two pastors treat fully of this subject, and they do so in such a way as to remove any guesswork, while simulataneously preserving the love and justice of Almighty God. Each of these men's sermons can be found here on UA-cam.
Thank you so much for sharing Adrian Rogers video x
Call it whatever you like and make any excuse you want, but if you are not one of God's elect, you are absolutely going to hell. And that was guaranteed before you were even born, and even if you die as a baby and never sinned. Live with it, and you better thank God for it.
Gentiles had no hope..
Ephesians 2:12 KJV - That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
I want to ask a question. In the last sentence (in 7:05) John Piper said:
“The redeemed will know we are saved utterly by grace while deserving hell and the rest will know that they suppressed much knowledge of God’s grace and they deserve to perish.”
So did the ones who “suppressed much knowledge of God’s grace” choose to supress it or that God determines that they suppress it?
And if God is the one who suppressed it, isn’t it also true that the real mastermind behind every person not believing in God and living in sin is ..... God himself (?) Wouldn’t that make God the author of sin?
And you know, in a webpage by Desiring God that Mr.Piper had written for in the past there is an explanation for my question written by Mr.Mathis (which is actually to clarify Mr. Piper’s statements) which i am really not comfortable about that says:
“God does bring sins about, but always for his own good purposes. So in bringing sin to pass he does not himself commit sin. If that argument is sound, then a Reformed doctrine of the sovereignty of God does not imply that God is the author of sin.”
Source: www.desiringgod.org/articles/does-god-author-sin
How can one brings about sin and not sin himself i wonder?
I’m sorry to say this but I honestly sees this as a blatant contradiction in God’s behalf if this were true, and if God can do sin in order to do good, then why can’t i? I wonder if it would be wrong if i were to do it since God is doing it himself, like stealing money from my neighbour to feed poor people for example? And if so what difference would it be between what i did and what Saul did in 1 Samuel 13 (morally speaking since we both did a sin in order to do good in the end as Saul really just wants Israel to beat Philistine which is what God also wants), but it says there that God is not pleased by it so clearly that act is not good in God’s eye and surely He is not a hypocrite (which said to someone not to do something but do it himself) since Christ said in Matthew 7 verse 5:
“You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye”
PS: To whoever reading this. This is not meant to offend anyone in any way. I respect anyone who preaches the Gospel and i certainly have massive respect for Mr.Piper for preaching to the lost. But still, i saw something that i just can’t agree on. God bless you.
I cant agree on it either, not only does it try to say no one has free will, but it makes God sound like a kid on an ant hill with a magnifying glass. I know I cannot wrap my finite mind around the way God works, but the idea that the father is the author of sin just sounds way off and blasphemous. If the father is love, then how does that show love, making someone sin and creating them for hell just to show how magnificent he is.. it paints the father in a VERY bad light and we all know the Father is just, holy, and good, and love, not what piper paints the father to be.
How about if we assume that Mr. Piper is wrong about asserting that God is bipolar or a psychopath.
@@JewessChrstnMystic God bless you ...
God, in any way, isn't responsible for people going to hell. People loved darkness than light. We all are on our way to hell because we chose it over the light. But God, out of HIs mercy, CHOSE to pick up some and transfer them from darkness to light. Those are the elect. So did God predestine people to go to hell? YES, he predestined that sinners will go to hell. Did he predestine for you to be a sinner? absolutely not. We are the ones who chose to be sinners. And God punishes sinners in hell. But again, God showed mercy and chose to save some, when He actually isn't obligated to do so.
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned- 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Romans 5
So we know that sin came from Adam which is consequence of free will God is all powerfull so he must have allowed that to happen otherwise there is no free will. God is in infinite dimention. We know this because GOd created time space and matter So he see and knows everything that every person will ever do on earth. So my question is does God need to wait for something to happen on earth in time or because he already sees the outcome he can make the judgment to include a persons name to the tree of life or not ? I think its the latter So when we say its predestined i agree but on the basis of a person free will The predestination we do not know this because we are bound by time but God is not so he can make that call and we have to trust him on that Today many people are presented with the Gospel and they still choose to disbelieve Its on them not on God
Please pray that God elects me for salvation because I doubt I am saved
I will pray for you but what makes you doubt that you are saved?
Please don't buy into this. It's not only not true, but it is a abusive religion.
Hey Amber, God is working in your heart if you care about the Gospel. Do you believe in Jesus' final sacrifice for your sin? Confess it with your mouth and begin to follow Christ, turning from sin. Rest in the mystery. God is good. Contact me any time. Do not be afraid!
Salvation is gift from God and is to be obtained by just believing in the finished work of Jesus on the cross(Romans 10:8-10)
Don't doubt just believe that you are saved (Luke 17:20-21;1John 5:10-13)
This is the terror of Calvinism. God is love and light...which proves Calvinism wrong.
Matthew 18:14 says that its not Gods will that any should perish
A Third Way:
Consider these three propositions:
(1) God wants to save everybody.
(2) God ultimately gets what he wants.
(3) Some people won't be saved.
All three propositions have many scriptures which, at least at first glance, support them. However, everyone agrees that, logically, at least one of these propositions must be false.
Calvinists reject (1) because they believe in limited atonement.
Arminians reject (2) because they believe that humanity's free will is absolute.
Believers in eventual universal salvation such as myself reject (3) because of
(a) scriptures such as John 12:32, 17:2, Romans 5:18-19, 8:19-21, 11:32,36a, *1 Cor. 15:22,28* , Col. 1:20, Rev. 5:13, 22:17c, Psalm 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isaiah 45:22-25, Lam. 3:22,31 and very many others,
(b) "eternal" is a mistranslation of _aionios._
(c) many other reasons.
Rejecting (1) is theologically very problematic.
Rejecting (2) is theologically problematic.
Rejecting (3) has the fewest theological problems.
Gerry Beauchemin's _Hope Beyond Hell_ gives about 100 scriptural arguments for rejecting (3), and explains the true and beautiful purpose of election.
I love the argument you draw out here. Personally I don’t see how you can get around the fact that some people go to hell for eternity, but I love the argument
@@timothyvenable3336 Thanks very much for reading my post and replying. The way I get around eternal hell is my points (a), (b) & (c) above. Here's a bit more background on
(b) "eternal" is a mistranslation of _aionios:_
In the dozen or so verses where hell, the lake of fire or destruction is said to be "eternal," "everlasting" or "forever," it's based on the Greek word _aionios._ If you google "aionios" you'll find many opinions about its meaning. There are excellent reasons to believe it should be translated "of an age." The adjective _aionios_ is derived from the noun _aion,_ which means "eon" or "age." Eons and ages are long but *finite* periods of time. The very literal Rotherham's Emphasized Bible version translates _aionios_ as "age-abiding." Young's Literal Translation says "age-during," which means during an age.
And as for
(c) many other reasons:
The biggest other reasons are:
(1) an eternal hell flies in the face of God's revealed loving character:
"I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would grow faint before me, and the breath of life that I made." (Isaiah 57:16)
"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end." (Lamentations 3:22)
"The Lord will not cast off forever." (Lamentations 3:31)
"He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in mercy." (Micah 7:18)
and
(2) God is good. God is love (1 John 4:8,16). Jesus is the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14, John 4:42). Jesus' mission was to seek and to save the lost (Luke 19:10), and he never fails.
BTW, this is what most early church fathers believed. I will be posting about that in a few minutes in case you're interested.