Thanks, i hesitate to put too much in because sometimes that stuff can be a bit slow but it seems the viewers i am attracting enjoy this so i am trying to put more and more in there.
Your also not running a turbo correct? So your torque is going to significantly lower than those breaking them with 400hp and turbos. Torque is what breaks stuff.
Correct, no turbo until after i get the NA record and i don't care if i have to switch transmission at that point. I'll be making 250lb*ft at absolute most, probably closer to 230lb*ft
Like the video alot. Would anyone happen to know if you can do a 4.235 final drive swap into a eb60 trans??? Or 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear swap from a eb60 into a e350 scion tc trans???
Is there a possibility that the 2ar turbo guys make more torque at 400whp than the 2az turbo guys make? Torque is what breaks these transmissions. Anyway, I am rewatching the video as I am getting ready to rebuild a e359f gearbox with e351 gears. Thanks again!
For what it's worth, that hammer has a story. I was dealing with repairing the building I'm recording in right now and the nails were stuck in so hard it was ridiculous. It cause me to break two hammers so I addressed the problem and now i have an indestructible claw hammer :) If you pause the video when the yellow headed one comes out you can see that it has a ton of miles on it also.
Great video! Makes me feel more confident going with the eb60 since I normally want the strongest transmission possible in order to not limit the amount of potential power I can have. I may just end up going with a reasonable amount of boost in order to keep within the stock limits of the 2gr/ev60.
I love watching your videos.. same kind of stuff me and my buddies do in the shop.. it might be tractors trucks Jeeps or cars were always tinkering with stuff and trying to make our own parts and ideas… my mr2 projects are still on the back burner as of now… i still need concrete in my shop electric heat lights all the goodies…. anyway i want to build the lightest 2gr mr2 possible.. maybe even have some ridiculous and unconventional weight savings projects planned for it.. do you think the e350 could hold a NA 2gr sw20?
The S54 can hold the 2GR's power with decent abuse and i am quite confident the E350 is stronger than the S54. You might have to put in a stronger differential since that is known to be a weak point on this transmission but otherwise you should be fine.
Massive difference in thickness on those gearsets. Have you considered getting the lighter transmission parts hardened (if they can be beefed up beyong oem specs)? As you pointed out, extra mass also equals more rotating mass and friction etc... so the lighter trans with some strategic tests and treatments may just be the ticket at your power levels. You have backup anyway, worst case. You just said you're sticking to the 153 for now. That gives you time to potentially optimize the lighter unit. The coil pack "anomaly" may just be due to having multiple suppliers so they don't get screwed in production in case one supplier has issues. It may also be a way for them to test quality standards of various supply chains to indentify potential savings opportunities.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks I have no idea about the costs so I didn't even think about swapping the internals but that makes sense... It would allow you to play with ratios as well.
Thanks for diving into this Marc! Lots of interesting details in this video. I’ll definitely be grabbing a few E350/351 transmissions while they’re still dirt cheap.
If it was a direct bolt-in that would be a trivial decision. I still think i will likely go that way but the first run will be done with the E153 just to get it done as soon as possible.
I wish i knew more about transmissions, i know nothing about them. Regarding the coils, i thought the toyota ones were all the same due to the size but i never thought about the part number, interesting
Some of it just comes down to not being afraid to dig in, i have so much stuff in the shop that i just bought to explore and learn. As for the coils, i'm really puzzled so i do what i always do, i explore :)
Hey Marc, where did you get your LSD for the E350? I have been trying to find one, but TRD stopped providing them and havent had luck finding it anywhere else.
While you have it apart might want to put an input shaft speed sensor on it, may help alot with diagnosing any shifting issues that pop up and potential engine speed matching with drive by wire.
Allan, that's actually a really good idea I'll put some thought towards how i could do that. I bet i could weld in a low profile hall effect sensor mount to the overdrive housing to measure the three arms of the synchro going by.
Yes, it is from the Scion tC. Wikipedia actually has a really good reference on many of the E series transmissions: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_E_transmission#E350
The E352F does have the internal oil pump like all the E series 90's transaxle. so at that point the weight difference becomes less than an E350 without the pump. So are you going to make close gear ratio set (1st to 4th) for the narrow box? I plan on putting the E352F internals into an E250F gearbox for my 99 Celica SS-III. Plan on taking my 3sge beams redtop to 8,000 rpm with the E250F 4.9 final drive. toyota never made any close gear ratios for any chassis since the ST185 RC edition. even the C60 trans could use improved gear spacing....
Justin, The oil pump is not very heavy but the transmission you're talking about also has the wide differential which does weigh quite a bit more than the narrow differential. I don't currently have plans for a different gearset but i certainly could if there's enough demand to justify it.
So, you are saving 2" of engine bay width by going with the E350 transmission. I wonder if this makes enough room to fit a 1UZ-FE.... (Please say "Yes!")
Unfortunately I don't know the dimensions of the 1UZ but the normal mounting position nominally leaves 21" of room and the internet says the 1UZ is 25" so it looks like it would only gain you about half the space needed.
It's a bit ironic that you suggest a transmission that weighs just shy of 200lbs on a video looking to save weight by going to a trans just under 100lbs :) While there's value to going to one of those for drag racing I intend to stay manual for a while. I'm not saying it'll make for a faster car, i've just got a preference for manuals.
No, you can just buy an ECU from me that is tuned and ready to go for your swap: frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/engine-computers/2ar-fe-tuned-ecu-with-immobilizer-removed-235hp unless you're going to be pushing past the stock ECU's limits.
Honestly i can't find a compelling reason to go to the EB60 for this exact car. It's heavier than the E350 and offers no gearing, strength of parts availability advantage. It's a great transmission for a daily or even for my road course car since it shifts very smoothly between 3&4 with long lasting synchros but not really for a drag car.
@frankensteinmotorworks on the tc2 U760E transmission the input shaft tends to be the weak point of the trans. Mine blew out at the bottom of the casing I cant give you exact hp an trq. Numbers as we had only road tune but the transmission did hold up for a year with power being in the high 200s, maybe 270
While i do not plan on using the auto, it's still good to know because people ask me about the auto all the time. I'd love to see some pictures of the carnage.
@@keitht8595 Sorry, i should have included that. On the contact page there's my e-mail: frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/contact (i can't post it here directly)
Regarding the coils, I would be surprised if you found a significant performance difference between the part numbers. I’d be willing to bet that the multiple PNs are related to multiple component suppliers; nearly identical designs and materials, just different part sourcing.
Different manufacturers is a good point and likely covers some of the differences but i still suspect there's more than 15% difference available in the OEM coils. If nothing else it's always fun to explore something like this.
@@VertigoGTI Well, i suppose it's a challenge now eh? I already ordered the parts to do it. I'm just going to use a precisely adjustable spark gap and a 1 ohm load resistor to measure the current across. Combined with a pulse generator and an oscilloscope that i already own it should be possible to get decent accuracy on how hard they hit.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks I'm definitely interested in seeing the results. At best, we have good info; at worst, we'll know that Toyota needs to work on their part and component commonization.
Another bit of data for you, I have a Camry E351 in my shop which has an aluminum 5th gear cover. Looks to have dowel pins as well. No idea if the steel vs aluminum cover is an E350 vs E351 difference, or a year to year difference.
I think the steel cover is reserved for narrow case transmissions but i don't fully understand the pattern. But honestly they are both effectively the same weight so the only potential savings is 2-4mm of extra clearance and that isn't an issue at all for the MR2
@@FrankensteinMotorworks E351 is the narrow case also. It looks identical to the E350 in your video. As far as I know it's the same transmission except for the final drive is a little longer. Ends up that 1st and 2nd are nearly the same as the E153, and the other three gears get progressively a little longer, so it may be a better option for your goals as well (since you said the E153 gearing would be better for you than the E350). It was also found in a lot more cars to begin with, so it should be a lot more common.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks Yeah, the fact that it's the same three numbers in reverse makes them easy to confuse! It does not have the oil pump. Without a super close inspection it looks externally identical to your E350 except for the aluminum cover.
@@WilhelmRaceWorks Ok, thanks for the info. I just did the math and i can't avoid the 4th gear shift unless i use 3.625 final drive gears and i can only get that in a wide case. Given that the shorter 4.235 final from the E350 will allow me to make better use of 4th gear. It'll just depend on if the car is struggling for traction off the line. If so the 3.9's would delay the shifts and still put down just as much power in 1st. I'll probably pick up an E351 to have one here.
I actually have no idea. I've never opened up an S54. I'd expect it to look very similar to the e series but smaller. i just don't know how much smaller
@@FrankensteinMotorworks right. I bet it is about the same as the E35x though as when you think about it, toyota used to have C, S, E tranmissions, and eventually the S went away, but the motors in the torqu range that used to use the S began using the E35x. the turbo and v6 motors that used to use the E15x stopped being paired to a manual trans, so it went away entirely, and we got newer versions of the C in small motors - the 1zz and 2zz etc on the C. It sort of implies the S became the E35x and might be quite similar in strength, though anecdotally people seem to feel the S51 and S54 top out around 300 ft lb, so maybe it is a bit weaker if the E35x handles 350-400 ft lb ?
If you're trying to hammer something and it's not working -- obviously you just aren't using a big enough hammer. Also have you had your hand shaking looked at by a doctor or something, not sure if it's just nervous on camera or whatever, but if you haven't could be well worth getting checked out by a doctor anything with nerves are much better dealt with sooner than later. (Don't worry about replying to this, just hope you are all good. Sending good thoughts your way.) As always love your work.
Jason, I'm glad you understand with the hammer. And the hand shaking thing is something that has been with me since childhood, i know why it is there and there's absolutely nothing to be done about it. I do know it gets a bit distracting sometimes though but thank you for putting up with it.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks I'm glad you're at least aware of it and unfortunate that nothing is to be done about it. It's not at all distracting beyond the 'Do I say something, I don't know him, I'm sure he's aware of it, but I really should say something' (especially considering how you Americans are with your crazy healthcare system or lack of, compared to the rest of the World).
@@WilliamJasonSherwood hahah funny. but true though. some people go through there entire life with sickness and never goes noticed. glad hes aware of it
So nice having someone figure these things out on the record
You're welcome, thank you for watching.
" I got enough E153's kicking around...." Words I wish to say one day. =D
Please don't ever change the way you make your videos. You come across as such a likeable and honest guy.
Watching you go through the creation/fabrication process is to much fun.
Thanks, i hesitate to put too much in because sometimes that stuff can be a bit slow but it seems the viewers i am attracting enjoy this so i am trying to put more and more in there.
The knowledge here is incredible
Your also not running a turbo correct? So your torque is going to significantly lower than those breaking them with 400hp and turbos. Torque is what breaks stuff.
Correct, no turbo until after i get the NA record and i don't care if i have to switch transmission at that point. I'll be making 250lb*ft at absolute most, probably closer to 230lb*ft
Like the video alot. Would anyone happen to know if you can do a 4.235 final drive swap into a eb60 trans???
Or 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear swap from a eb60 into a e350 scion tc trans???
Is there a possibility that the 2ar turbo guys make more torque at 400whp than the 2az turbo guys make? Torque is what breaks these transmissions. Anyway, I am rewatching the video as I am getting ready to rebuild a e359f gearbox with e351 gears. Thanks again!
this is my favorite channel rn i need to get my car done lol
Awesome, I'm glad i can help provide build motivation :)
I was shocked to see proper hammers being used rather than the claw hammer from the earlier videos…you have changed sir…
Are you talking about my craw hammer head with the 1x1 barstock welded onto it? I love that thing and it will continue making rounds :)
For what it's worth, that hammer has a story. I was dealing with repairing the building I'm recording in right now and the nails were stuck in so hard it was ridiculous. It cause me to break two hammers so I addressed the problem and now i have an indestructible claw hammer :) If you pause the video when the yellow headed one comes out you can see that it has a ton of miles on it also.
Great video! Makes me feel more confident going with the eb60 since I normally want the strongest transmission possible in order to not limit the amount of potential power I can have. I may just end up going with a reasonable amount of boost in order to keep within the stock limits of the 2gr/ev60.
I love watching your videos.. same kind of stuff me and my buddies do in the shop.. it might be tractors trucks Jeeps or cars were always tinkering with stuff and trying to make our own parts and ideas… my mr2 projects are still on the back burner as of now… i still need concrete in my shop electric heat lights all the goodies…. anyway i want to build the lightest 2gr mr2 possible.. maybe even have some ridiculous and unconventional weight savings projects planned for it.. do you think the e350 could hold a NA 2gr sw20?
The S54 can hold the 2GR's power with decent abuse and i am quite confident the E350 is stronger than the S54. You might have to put in a stronger differential since that is known to be a weak point on this transmission but otherwise you should be fine.
Um, drag racing...why not think outside the box (no pun intended), v6 camry/windom automatic?
Yes, you are 100% correct. an auto would be better for drag racing. Unfortunately i absolutely refuse to have anything to do with the evil things.
Always waiting for your post 😁
Even this late at night? that's a bit surprising :) or perhaps you're just in a completely different timezone.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks yea😂I typically stay up pretty late on my day’s off
@@FrankensteinMotorworks it's only 10:00pm ;)
Massive difference in thickness on those gearsets. Have you considered getting the lighter transmission parts hardened (if they can be beefed up beyong oem specs)? As you pointed out, extra mass also equals more rotating mass and friction etc... so the lighter trans with some strategic tests and treatments may just be the ticket at your power levels. You have backup anyway, worst case. You just said you're sticking to the 153 for now. That gives you time to potentially optimize the lighter unit. The coil pack "anomaly" may just be due to having multiple suppliers so they don't get screwed in production in case one supplier has issues. It may also be a way for them to test quality standards of various supply chains to indentify potential savings opportunities.
i did think about that for a bit but i think i'd just go straight for spur gears and dogs if i have to upgrade anything in there.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks I have no idea about the costs so I didn't even think about swapping the internals but that makes sense... It would allow you to play with ratios as well.
Thanks for diving into this Marc! Lots of interesting details in this video. I’ll definitely be grabbing a few E350/351 transmissions while they’re still dirt cheap.
Just keep in mind some fabrication will be required to make these usable.
For the sake of the record the lighter box has to be the one. hopefully hold together long enough to win and then retire it
If it was a direct bolt-in that would be a trivial decision. I still think i will likely go that way but the first run will be done with the E153 just to get it done as soon as possible.
I wish i knew more about transmissions, i know nothing about them. Regarding the coils, i thought the toyota ones were all the same due to the size but i never thought about the part number, interesting
Some of it just comes down to not being afraid to dig in, i have so much stuff in the shop that i just bought to explore and learn. As for the coils, i'm really puzzled so i do what i always do, i explore :)
@@FrankensteinMotorworks i will start digging into transmission stuff, is necessary
Hopefully you can find a decent gear ratio spacing as the offerings look pretty slim.
Yeah, unfortunately they do look pretty slim and none of them are really that great for this application on paper.
Hey Marc, where did you get your LSD for the E350? I have been trying to find one, but TRD stopped providing them and havent had luck finding it anywhere else.
Quaife has the QDF25E which is still in production.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks Thanks a bunch. I was on the Quaife website the other day and just couldn't source the correct one for whatever reason.
Just use R35 or 370Z coils. If you want to go the extra mile use the AEM coils but only if you are running insane boost numbers.
I can send you pics of this casing if you are interested, if they can help in anyway let me know
While you have it apart might want to put an input shaft speed sensor on it, may help alot with diagnosing any shifting issues that pop up and potential engine speed matching with drive by wire.
Allan, that's actually a really good idea I'll put some thought towards how i could do that. I bet i could weld in a low profile hall effect sensor mount to the overdrive housing to measure the three arms of the synchro going by.
The threaded cherry hall sensor pointed at a strait cut reverse gear is also a common way of doing it.
The e350 comes from scion tc correct?
Yes, it is from the Scion tC. Wikipedia actually has a really good reference on many of the E series transmissions: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_E_transmission#E350
The E352F does have the internal oil pump like all the E series 90's transaxle. so at that point the weight difference becomes less than an E350 without the pump. So are you going to make close gear ratio set (1st to 4th) for the narrow box? I plan on putting the E352F internals into an E250F gearbox for my 99 Celica SS-III. Plan on taking my 3sge beams redtop to 8,000 rpm with the E250F 4.9 final drive. toyota never made any close gear ratios for any chassis since the ST185 RC edition. even the C60 trans could use improved gear spacing....
Justin,
The oil pump is not very heavy but the transmission you're talking about also has the wide differential which does weigh quite a bit more than the narrow differential.
I don't currently have plans for a different gearset but i certainly could if there's enough demand to justify it.
So, you are saving 2" of engine bay width by going with the E350 transmission. I wonder if this makes enough room to fit a 1UZ-FE.... (Please say "Yes!")
Unfortunately I don't know the dimensions of the 1UZ but the normal mounting position nominally leaves 21" of room and the internet says the 1UZ is 25" so it looks like it would only gain you about half the space needed.
Hey Marc is it possible to look into the DQ250 & DQ500. Only because I noticed Syvecs programed an ECU to work with the Lotus.
It's a bit ironic that you suggest a transmission that weighs just shy of 200lbs on a video looking to save weight by going to a trans just under 100lbs :)
While there's value to going to one of those for drag racing I intend to stay manual for a while. I'm not saying it'll make for a faster car, i've just got a preference for manuals.
Excelente, saludos desde Panama !!!
Tony the Tiger, I believe, said the E153 was good to about 750hp, the E350 looks much lighter!
That number seems to get bigger and bigger over time. I do wonder how much is fact vs legend. We do know it can hold a heck of a lot of power though.
I’m getting a 2arfe with an auto transmission would I need a an aftermarket ecu to run it in a e153 ?
No, you can just buy an ECU from me that is tuned and ready to go for your swap: frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/engine-computers/2ar-fe-tuned-ecu-with-immobilizer-removed-235hp
unless you're going to be pushing past the stock ECU's limits.
maybe i missed some info somewhere, Do the e15x axles work with the e35x or is it a mix and match of toyota stuff
the left stub seal needs to move, it's a pretty close match but not a direct bolt-in.
I think you should go eb60
Can't wait to see your 1/4 mile time!
Honestly i can't find a compelling reason to go to the EB60 for this exact car. It's heavier than the E350 and offers no gearing, strength of parts availability advantage. It's a great transmission for a daily or even for my road course car since it shifts very smoothly between 3&4 with long lasting synchros but not really for a drag car.
Now you have me wondering what other engines Toyota may have used those coils in. 🤔
not all of them but most of them. Even the Prius has the same dimension coils.
Are you going to completely remove the overdrive gear?
I considered it but i think i'd like to do drag week style events so having a highway cruising gear would be nice.
@frankensteinmotorworks on the tc2 U760E transmission the input shaft tends to be the weak point of the trans. Mine blew out at the bottom of the casing
I cant give you exact hp an trq. Numbers as we had only road tune but the transmission did hold up for a year with power being in the high 200s, maybe 270
While i do not plan on using the auto, it's still good to know because people ask me about the auto all the time. I'd love to see some pictures of the carnage.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks do you have anything for me to send the pic to, i don't think i can post a pic here on the comment section
@@keitht8595 Sorry, i should have included that. On the contact page there's my e-mail: frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/contact (i can't post it here directly)
Regarding the coils, I would be surprised if you found a significant performance difference between the part numbers. I’d be willing to bet that the multiple PNs are related to multiple component suppliers; nearly identical designs and materials, just different part sourcing.
Different manufacturers is a good point and likely covers some of the differences but i still suspect there's more than 15% difference available in the OEM coils. If nothing else it's always fun to explore something like this.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks If there's more than 15% variation, I will personally deliver a pack or case of your favorite adult beverage. :D
@@VertigoGTI Well, i suppose it's a challenge now eh? I already ordered the parts to do it. I'm just going to use a precisely adjustable spark gap and a 1 ohm load resistor to measure the current across. Combined with a pulse generator and an oscilloscope that i already own it should be possible to get decent accuracy on how hard they hit.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks I'm definitely interested in seeing the results. At best, we have good info; at worst, we'll know that Toyota needs to work on their part and component commonization.
Fill the car with hydrogen
;b
Another bit of data for you, I have a Camry E351 in my shop which has an aluminum 5th gear cover. Looks to have dowel pins as well. No idea if the steel vs aluminum cover is an E350 vs E351 difference, or a year to year difference.
I think the steel cover is reserved for narrow case transmissions but i don't fully understand the pattern. But honestly they are both effectively the same weight so the only potential savings is 2-4mm of extra clearance and that isn't an issue at all for the MR2
@@FrankensteinMotorworks E351 is the narrow case also. It looks identical to the E350 in your video. As far as I know it's the same transmission except for the final drive is a little longer. Ends up that 1st and 2nd are nearly the same as the E153, and the other three gears get progressively a little longer, so it may be a better option for your goals as well (since you said the E153 gearing would be better for you than the E350). It was also found in a lot more cars to begin with, so it should be a lot more common.
@@WilhelmRaceWorks I'm sorry, i saw camry E153. the fact that the E351 has an aluminum cover is confusing to me. Does it have an oil pump?
@@FrankensteinMotorworks Yeah, the fact that it's the same three numbers in reverse makes them easy to confuse! It does not have the oil pump. Without a super close inspection it looks externally identical to your E350 except for the aluminum cover.
@@WilhelmRaceWorks Ok, thanks for the info. I just did the math and i can't avoid the 4th gear shift unless i use 3.625 final drive gears and i can only get that in a wide case. Given that the shorter 4.235 final from the E350 will allow me to make better use of 4th gear. It'll just depend on if the car is struggling for traction off the line. If so the 3.9's would delay the shifts and still put down just as much power in 1st. I'll probably pick up an E351 to have one here.
Any idea what s series internals look like?
I actually have no idea. I've never opened up an S54. I'd expect it to look very similar to the e series but smaller. i just don't know how much smaller
@@FrankensteinMotorworks right. I bet it is about the same as the E35x though as when you think about it, toyota used to have C, S, E tranmissions, and eventually the S went away, but the motors in the torqu range that used to use the S began using the E35x. the turbo and v6 motors that used to use the E15x stopped being paired to a manual trans, so it went away entirely, and we got newer versions of the C in small motors - the 1zz and 2zz etc on the C. It sort of implies the S became the E35x and might be quite similar in strength, though anecdotally people seem to feel the S51 and S54 top out around 300 ft lb, so maybe it is a bit weaker if the E35x handles 350-400 ft lb ?
@@jdchmiel an e350 weighs 102 lbs with oil and S54 weighs 88 lbs with oil. so ya the gearing on the E350 series are wider and diff size is larger.
If you're trying to hammer something and it's not working -- obviously you just aren't using a big enough hammer.
Also have you had your hand shaking looked at by a doctor or something, not sure if it's just nervous on camera or whatever, but if you haven't could be well worth getting checked out by a doctor anything with nerves are much better dealt with sooner than later. (Don't worry about replying to this, just hope you are all good. Sending good thoughts your way.)
As always love your work.
Jason, I'm glad you understand with the hammer. And the hand shaking thing is something that has been with me since childhood, i know why it is there and there's absolutely nothing to be done about it. I do know it gets a bit distracting sometimes though but thank you for putting up with it.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks I'm glad you're at least aware of it and unfortunate that nothing is to be done about it. It's not at all distracting beyond the 'Do I say something, I don't know him, I'm sure he's aware of it, but I really should say something' (especially considering how you Americans are with your crazy healthcare system or lack of, compared to the rest of the World).
@@WilliamJasonSherwood Does it help if i say i'm actually Canadian? but i am living in this crazy American healthcare situation.
@@WilliamJasonSherwood hahah funny. but true though. some people go through there entire life with sickness and never goes noticed. glad hes aware of it