Why F1 Wheel Covers Failed - EXPLAINED
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- Опубліковано 23 тра 2024
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Thank you for the informative video. I swear you are the only person on the internet that doesn’t criticise the look of an engineering prototype and making “iT’s UgLy” as one of the talking point.
Thanks, it’s an engineering topic.
Covering the entire wheel and working down from there just makes so much sense, guess it just goes to show how little sense social media users have.
Its ugly, aesthetics will always find it's way into the discussion
One criticizes the appearance of an engineering prototype when they don't know enough to talk about how it's intended to work and how it actually performed.
As a nerd myself, I love this guy's very informative & matter of fact presentation style.
@@chiefdenis that's a pretty subjective take. I personally don't find it ugly, you do find it ugly.
How it looks doesn't factor into whether or not it'll be used
Interesting engineering problem watching the progression--floor downforce to improve racing in the dry with less dirty air, inadvertently breaks wet weather racing.
"Simplify, then add lightness" - Colin Chapman
They might have gotten the simplify part, but they're still far away from the lightness. Lighter cars will still corner very quickly and they'll produce less spray
@@KepleroGTwhat a simple (simplified heh) but also genius idea
Looks like those cars from the speed racer movie
Honestly, everyone with a clear mind should see that the spray of the tire isn’t the main issue. The aerodynamic spray is so much worse.
No one was saying otherwise, no shit sherlock
Hence, reduce downforce to make racing in the rain possible again and as a side effect improve overall racing as well. I’ll take that.
I’m just a mechanic but it seemed pretty obvious to me that the wheel covers would be effectively useless for F1. Even in GT3s the spray from the diffuser is insane.
Pirelli needs to change wet tread pattern.
The current SYMMETRIC TIRE TREAD causes : 50% of the water to be pushed OUTSIDE of the car,
remaining 50% is pushed to the UNDERSIDE of the car.
I’m ignorant in matter, but is it possible to add some removable parts on the diffuser that in some ways turns water droplets into bigger drops, like some type of vortex generators, so that there is less spray? In my eyes this could be the only solution.
Road car, 70mph, mostly covered wheels, no diffuser, rain, equals difficult driving conditions with a lot of spray.
The odds were against them to be fair.
Fortunately Tombazis is not in Ferrari anymore, so they have a chance to build serious cars.
Since the first wet race of this new ground effect cars everyone (drivers, technicians and commentators) pointed at the ground effect for the rain problem, how they can even think to test this “solution” involving the wheels?
The easiest solution is to eliminate ground effect, but I believe that a good engineer could create a floor aerodynamic that pushes the air more on the side and less upward.
FIRST Pirelli needs to change the tread pattern to avoid pushing water toward the inside tirewall . The current SYMMETRIC TIRE TREAD (ideally) causes : 50% of the water to be pushed OUTSIDE of the car, the other 50% is pushed to the floor /UNDERSIDE of the car. This 50% from the inside of all 4 tires, is likely most of what is being lifted up by the diffuser .
Of course, tires are NOT IDEAL, so there is a large fraction of water that is not diverted out by the tread, so it's still stuck to the tire, and gets flung off the tire as it rotates up and fwd into the airstream over the tire.
So ASSUME you capture every single drop into the prototype arch/ cover. Any wheel arch / cover that lets the water to recollect /drip down /drain directly WITHIN the width of the car (let along the Wake of the tire) is a horrible idea, won't allow the track to dry at all.
In other words, it should NOT be draining behind the wheel within the wheel tracks - in front of next tire /car/ within the racing line. Goal of an ideal cover should be to REDIRECT SPRAY OUTSIDE the WIDTH of the car.
REGARDLESS, ALL THIS WILL NOT MATTER. When the spray is deflected vertically high up, you get a vertical column of hazy mist. BUT once you figure out how to make it go outward to the sides, THEN YOU GET THAT SAME EFFECT OF HAZY MIST SIDEWAYS / HORIZONTALLY, INSTEAD, but at least you are drying the track.
Also, Infrared / thermal won't work at all, radar works but are not high resolution( detects very large obstacles only, low specificity / low accuracy).
Hopefully / MAYBE, modified versions of certain LIDAR systems might have a chance (speciality lidar's with different wavelengths are being ordered from Luminar, by VOLVO, Mercedes, Toyota, for ADAS/ SEMI-AUTONOMOUS aids capable of operating in mist, fog, snow, rain etc., theses are not the revolving / rotating kind of the past, even Tesla has been using this company's chips for calibrating their own camera systems)
I think the Perfect solution is: change the SAFETY CAR to a widened version of the McMurtry FAN CAR (Change fan exit out to the sides) and run it for all races. Have it drive 2 or 3 laps with different racing lines.
We knew this from the start, but good to see it experimentally confirmed
Yet another 40 year old downside of ground effects rearing it's head, the difference being the cars were much smaller back then so the amount of spray was a little more tolerable. Maybe the 2026 cars will be as well.
Yeah they're probably gonna have to ajust the regulations around the diffuser to make it slimmer so the spray cloud isn't as wide. The cars will be a tiny bit less wide as well
all f1 cars are ground effect, even the previous generation.
Its not about the size itself. Its about the amount of force which drags the water up. You can have bigger object which creates less aero turbulences than smaller object.
@@jareknowak8712 Yes, but that's not what happening here, simply put a car that's 35% bigger will pull that much more water off of the track. So even if the bigger car is creating the same negative pressure per square inch (which i doubt giver 4 decades of aero advancement) as the smaller car it's going to put more spray in the air.
@@Bahamuttiamat nah those had flat floors
The only solution will be to make the cars smaller and lighter, therefore needing less downforce to achieve the same cornering speeds while producing less upwash.
fia is too busy trying to create touring buses out of f1 cars
@@eliasmaissour437 you mean M8 GTE?
FIA could come up with a standardised diffuser cover that's mandatory to use. Once a race is red flagged due to poor visibility, teams must put on the diffuser covers and prepare for a restart.
Love your videos! Thanks so much!
You are welcome!
it looks to me that with the wheel covers, the spray is still coming form the tyre, its being thrown out sidways with the airflow from the bottom of the tyre, and then sucked under the floor, I think they need a barge-board and sliding skirt on the inside of all 4 wheels, to deflect the spray into the wake of the tyre. Also catch the spray from the front wheels, so it's not picked up by the rears
Perfect solution: change the SAFETY CAR to a widened version of the McMurtry FAN CAR (Change fan exit out to the sides) and run it for all races. Have it drive 2 or 3 laps with different racing lines.
THE Perfect solution: change the SAFETY CAR to a widened version of the McMurtry FAN CAR (Change fan exit out to the sides) and run it for all races. Have it drive 2 or 3 laps with different racing lines.
This is basically what they do in IndyCar and NASCAR
It seems a bit crazy to me they actually had to test for this and it was obvious already from their understanding of how F1 aero works.
Did they just do it to shut up some committee guy who had no clue or what?
Commitee guy and big parts of the fan base is my guess. Everyone with an ounce of technical understanding was saying for years that the downforce from the floor is the main issue and not the tires.
I wonder if they added baffles in the diffuser’s path under the car like a firearm suppressor what effect that’d have. Air can still flow the same mostly and a lot of the water would be caught in the baffles slowing it down rather than being blown out as a mist? I doubt that’d work I feel like the baffles might reduce the downforce or otherwise make the car less predictable. Maybe they should just get rid of the ground effects and make the cars smaller/lighter anyway.
In NASCAR they have extendable booms with air nozzles and jet engines on trucks to water from the track.
But why would you want to have to go through all that? It would still mean stopping every race until the rain stopped falling
Perfect solution: change the SAFETY CAR to a widened version of the McMurtry FAN CAR (Change fan exit out to the sides) and run it for all races. Have it drive 2 or 3 laps with different racing lines.
Just stall out the floor in rain races... It'll create an entire new pecking order in the rain, itll be insane to watch
My biggest question is not aswered: why does the water end up as such a fine mist? Picking up water is not the problem the mist is.
It seems to me that it's just the floor sucking up a layer of water from the tarmac, so why is it "atomized"? Why don't we get large droplets, that don't stay afloat in the air? Can this be changed? Are the vortices, such as caused by the strakes a factor in this?
noob question: would it help to pull the diffuser's spray even further up and maybe wider? that way the water in the spray is less condensed and maybe the drivers can see through the spray? maybe there is just too much water for this to help?
Perfect solution: change the SAFETY CAR to a widened version of the McMurtry FAN CAR (Change fan exit out to the sides) and run it for all races. Have it drive 2 or 3 laps with different racing lines.
Yeah it's too much water for that to help enough.
Would more permeable track surfaces help to reduce standing water on the tracks?
permeable track surface are not really strong withstand excessive pressure, permeable surface are good for parking lot, garageway, sidewalk etc but not for regular use road nor a circuit... it will become very bumpy
I was thinking the same, but even if they could make it durable enough I suspect the rubber from the tures would block the water passages making it slippery in all the wrong places.
Thanks
Deflectors will eliminate the downforce, yes, but maybe it is not that bad since every team will be at disadvantage. It sure will make things interesting and maybe add yet another challenge for the engineers, if they care about wet performance.
I frankly don't remember the 1978/1979 cars, with flat floor in the center and winged pontoons on the sides had this kind of problem ... Maybe we have to rethink what kind of wing cars we want!
I saw a few videos of some kind of tarmac that can displace water quickly. What do you think of it?
Easy solution for getting rid of water spray and still keeping the downforce: stop making DF by the floorpan, use only wings :)
I wonder if there’s a safe, biodegradable chemical that can be sprayed on track that could change how the water hangs in the air. If the chemical could make the water either cling to the road or stay together in large drops then it could improve visibility. It’d have to be something that would either stick to the track and slowly release into the water falling on the track or something that that could be easily sprayed on track continuously. Even though this would probably never be done, even if it was safe, I wonder if there was some chemical or compound that could accomplish this.
Otra solución posible sería elevar mucho la altura de los autos. De esta manera, el difusor perdería eficiencia, pero generaría menos spray. Al mismo tiempo, ablandar las suspensiones. Estas configuraciones obligatorias en condición de piso mojado, harían a los autos terriblemente más lentos, pero podrían correr. Y eso es mejor que no correr.
So let's go back to pre-2010 car dimensions. Narrow and short. So cars can be lighter hence cornering speed is produced by the lower weight rather than aerodynamics. Luckily, this would also lower dirty air.
In extreme weather, limit the maximum racing speed to 30kph, with tyres that can operate at that speed/temp. No spray then!
Of course the real solution is *delay until conditions to improve and cancel if it gets too dark* but that's against F1's priorities of TV commercial rights ahead of common sense.
Or institute a minimum height which just so happens to be the maximum height 😁
stupid idea: make a diffusor to throw flow high so that it is above following cars
Screw it lets have a spec rain B car thats much slower, much less downforce but allows us to see these drivers going wheel to wheel in the rain
Didn't Berman say viability was better? And to say their last attempt for a solution is unbelievable.
It is better but the FIA decided it wasn't good enough
These look like early 90s interserie cars
The only answer is to show the cars down. Everyone is begging for better extreme wet tires when we should probably get worse wets and inters.
Even I knew the sprays are from the venturi effect but these FIA people didn't know
Develop infrared and/or thermal imaging that imposes a partially transparent image in the drivers helmet for such events.
Infrared / thermal won't work at all, MAYBE modified versions of certain LIDAR might.
but I know RADAR WORKS.
Real solution is making the cars smaller and lighter so they don't need as much downforce
Halos, covered wheels, smaller diffusors. At some point F1 will run GT3 cars
They were a really dumb idae. End of explanasion. Or, because teams, drivers, and fans have brains.
Just scrap the ground effect concept and revert back to early 2000s or 17-21 rule philosophy
solution : have an autopilot driving the car on rain
Alternative solution: put a straw that goes from underneath the car to the cockpit and force the drivers to drink the water as they drive over it.
@@CyanRooper 😅😅😅😅😅
Why not use wipers for the helmet?
the helmet isn't the issue it's the fog caused by the spray
@@defnotatroll just don’t follow the car in front. Easy. Max did it in Brazil 2016.
make cars lighter and smaller problem solved, 2010 style
F1s from the 1968/1969 seasons have the solution, just sayi'n
Lewis is going to have a field day hitting these things off peoples cars
Good
I love it, its the right path to make f1 cars look cool (turn them into prototypes!)
No.
I think there is no viable bodywork/aero solution. Maybe F1 should have a look into camera systems, infrared sensors etc. which are mounted on the car and work inside the driver's helmet like a fighter jet helmet.
Yes I know, expensive. But F1's gotta innovate and make its title as the spearhead of technology and engineering deserved, and that would absolutely be fitting for that. Also, such a solution opens up a whole new level of driver interaction with the car, like Jarvis in Iron Man...
Infrared / thermal won't work at all, MAYBE modified versions of certain LIDAR might.
but I know RADAR WORKS.
Perfect solution: change the SAFETY CAR to a widened version of the McMurtry FAN CAR (Change fan exit out to the sides) and run it for all races. Have it drive 2 or 3 laps with different racing lines.
Yeah I think they should experiment with this at least. Even if it doesn't work it's worth exploring
money/time down the drain
didn't they have any foresight on this before implementing the current regs? sounds like a massive case of incompetence of they didn't.
🥱...If the F1 world wanted to solve the water spray problem, it had to think about it when F1 was born and not today. The fact to have wheels not covered is the "trademark" of an F1 car, so why all these problems now ?
There is no visibility ? ...then stop the race. Otherwise let's windshield and wipers be mandatory....
Go back to 1960's era F1 design. No wings, no floor.
The best solution might just be real men with balls racing by the sound of the car in fronts engine note and gear changes? We could have stand ins if any of the current drivers don't dare race in the rain in case the wet affects their hairstyle etc
Just make all the teams make a rain floor that's completely flat
F1 is a joke.
Mudflaps on f1 cars🙄
In NASCAR they have extendable booms with air nozzles and jet engines on trucks to water from the track.
Perfect solution: change the SAFETY CAR to a widened version of the McMurtry FAN CAR (Change fan exit out to the sides) and run it for all races. Have it drive 2 or 3 laps with different racing lines.