The ATR is a good aircraft. Any pilots flying ANY turboprop needs to remember that just because it may be 60 Degrees AGL, once you get to cruise you can easily be well below freezing. These Pilots upon receiving the NOTAM of ice from 12,000-21,000ft should have delayed or canceled the flight or just flown below the weather. I’d have planned that Flight (If accepting it) to cruise at 10,000ft, giving myself 2,000ft of space. You certainly don’t want to sit smack dab in the middle of severe Ice at 16,000/17,000ft. You also wouldn’t want to try and climb above it, because you’ll pick up Ice on the way up and then again to get back down. Sad deal.
Thanks for a very well done and very valuable content gentlemen. Really Not trying to defend the pilots here, they need to understand and speak english well indeed before attempting to fly into a big busy international airport, speaking a language wich is not their mother language. But “Atc woulda been screaming at him”. That kind of behavioir from atc, certainly deserves to be admonished and be educated too. Because screaming at a stressed pilot in a very busy phase of flight, will not make him speak english better, i can assure you. More. Likely will make him make more mistakes. Brazilian 737 driver here, and i was flying the same day the voe pas ATR went down close to sao paulo. I was coming from the south, from argentina to sao paulo, a very big and strong cold weather system was coming in from the south,and i flew through that area a couple of hours later after the accident, and there was a severe icing advisory in effect, and we did indeed get ice forming on our windshield and wings as we flew past fl200 and below that. Rip all the souls lost in that terrible tragedy.
Really enjoy watching your non sensational, level headed analysis and explanations. Am not a pilot and really don't like flying that much, but I feel you are educating me the best way possible. Thank you very much.
it's great to see boomers coming in to give their expert advice and opinions without all the cuts, antics, and me undies ads. Gen-X is playing politics for the first time in their lives (and that's it), Millennials are slowly realizing they're old and becoming boomers, Gen-Z is still trying to figure themselves out, and Gen-Alpha is watching Gen-Zers overreact for 30 minutes at a time.
I am from Germany and did some Glider flying ages ago. In General aviation, at least back then in the 90s, it was a hit or miss whether the Tower at the local small airfield spoke English or German, but when you talked to ATC or the Tower of an airport, of course the language was English. I would say that non nativ speaker even got a small advantage when it comes to the special pronunciations or wordings within the ATC-English over native English speakers. For us those were „only“ new vocabulary you‘d need to learn, just like everything else in English, were nativ speakers need to change up thinks within their mothers tongue - and that can be a challenge. But I was totally shocked to hear, that French ATC even at big international airports talk French with their own Airlines. Now this poses a risk for everybody who doesn‘t speak French and even worse, when they are non-native English speakers who then hear French and some very frenchy English and also need to fly their airliners.
Very informative and important video to spread awareness on this subject matter . These two men are beyond experienced and know what they’re talking about .
Of course we don´t know at the moment what caused this crash. But I heard one statement about this Crash which is still very convincing to me: Even if no Crash would have happened it would have been a mistake to fly in the severe icing conditions as this Pilots probably did. So it´s most probably not a "Single-Issue-Event" like Icing alone what crashed this Aircraft but a "Swiss-Cheese-Event" with more than one causing and/ or contributing factors. Thank you very much for picking this event up!
So thankful I found your channel. I have watched you guys on Mayday and other channels in interviews. Wonderful news you have a channel! Thank you so very much!
Mayday is a great program, and Greg, John, and I have been on many episodes over the years. This podcast allows us to go into areas of aviation safety that complement the kind of information seen on Mayday and similar television productions.
Two things I remember from the Roselawn accident recommendations were: hand fly when in known icing conditions and activate the anti-ice at the first sign of icing. Don't wait until you get significant ice before using anti-ice.
If this happened because of ice, how long would the autopilot have been correcting for it? Is there enough time for a pilot to notice and revert it? And could ´some´ sensor have worked in warning the pilots the autopilot was increasingly correcting for something? From my ignorant mind it seems very dangerous that it flies itself until its unrecoverable. Thanks!
You are quite right, the English language by many Brazilian airline pilots aren't sharp enough.....I often listen to a number of flight videos on youtube and find quite difficult to understand the lingo...thanks for sharing this video.
The trouble with this aircraft is the wing section/xsection which seems to encourage ice to form close to the aileron. I would not fly in this aircraft and it really needs redesign of the wing. Ground until modified, you guys have done a terrifically good job. I am a retiredCertification Engineer and private pilot. Other type of this aircraft are nowhere as critical and have i believe a different wing section
As for the pilot facing communication issues, the challenge of English in aviation is pretty complex. A pilot who isn’t a native English speaker has to not only understand what air traffic control is saying but also mentally translate it. It’s essentially a two-step process, unlike what they’re used to in their own country. For some, this is more challenging than for others, and the only way to overcome it is through training-lots of it. That said, any pilot aiming to fly in foreign airspace has to be prepared for this. Fortunately, there are plenty of resources available, including websites that focus on language practice and sharing experiences in various languages.
the local media made a article with a picture showing that the de-icing system of this plane was not working , also never a plane in brazil had a accident due to ice so that was unheard in brazil really , theres a unconfirmed rumour that the pilot has asked the ATC to lower the altitude but didnt called mayday also because never in brazil a plane had a accident due to ice so no one was thinking that it could crash - so he maybe tried to keep the altitude even without getting the speed due to ice instead of lower the nose
Brazilian here. Our media are not reliable sources - they don't stay factual, but they cherry pick, take things out of context, create narratives with facts. There's some previous aviation accidents or serious incidents in Brasil due ice. Two examples, one fatal. FINAL REPORT - 025/CENIPA/2013 (Google for RF_A-025CENIPA2013_PP-AJV.pdf - English version), - a fatal accident in February 2013 with King Air C-90 PP-AJV due ice formation. Their flight route was basically same of ATR-72 Voepass Flight 2283 that spin to the ground in August 9, 2024. FINAL REPORT IG-136/CENIPA/2013A (Google for PP-PTU_26JUL2013_ing_IG.pdf - English version ) - a serious incident in July, 2013 with ATR-72 with 62 people onboard in a nigh flight in Northeast of Brasil. The Aircraft enter in ice formation area, loose speed, stall, fall ~5000 feet, but control was reestablish and landing safety in destination. Pilotos errors: keep the aircraft in autopilot after enter in the ice area, pilot fight against the stick pusher when the aircraft stall, co-pilot feathered the propellers - manufacturer manual instruct set in 100%.
>>> "also never a plane in brazil had a accident due to ice so that was unheard in brazil really " This is not correct, here in Brazil in 2013 there was a fatal accident with the Beechcraft C90A and a serious incident with the ATR-72-312 due to ice. I previously posted a more detailed answer, but it was blocked or censored. And the media here is not trustworthy, it manipulates the news.
I have flown into Logan during rush hour in a Maule and landed on 33L . They wanted 120Kts to the numbers. I told them I can't land if I keep that speed. I need to be 60kts over the numbers or I am going to be really long. I would be tying up the runway for precious seconds. The controllers have a heavy accent and talk fast.
Besides the obvious question of why the pilots decided to fly into weather with a sigmet for severe icing between FL120 to FL210, it seems very likely the autopilot disconnected in IMC when no longer able to correct trim for the input parameters, encountered a stalled tail with an aft configuration, lost 1,000 ft after sticker shaker activated, had insufficient airspeed using ailerons to correct yaw while already in the unrecoverable flat spin. Many operators insist pilots always use the autopilot for all phases of flight which promotes complacency.
The fact that weather can be so dangerous has always made me nervous about flying. The fact that someone is allowed to get a vfr pilot license take off and then accidentally fly into some clouds is astonishing to me amd makes me wonder why anyone would fly without being able to land using your instruments. Is it common for VFR pilots to turn around 180 degrees and land at their origin airport when they encounter weather?
I did listen to show but I am not commenting about it; rather about an accident that the FSD show folks can dissect. It is Air Moorea Flight 1121. It appears to have good lessons for maintenance and parking of planes. I think this would probably falls right at the alley of John. Thanks
I found a report in French on the BEA site. If I can't find an official report in English, I'll spend some time with Google Translate and look at it to see if we could do a decent show on that event.
That technology is widely available and, depending on the location, would be required equipment. However, there are many situations where an aircraft is not required to have that kind of equipment, but ATC procedures are effective at maintaining safe separation, and ATC, in my experience, has been very good at anticipating issues and giving pilots guidance to avoid other aircraft.
I have a question about when you are given that number to call. Who monitors whether or not the reported flight follows up and actually does make the call. So in this case the pilot is from another country. What’s to stop them from not calling and just heading back home?
Good question. I don't know if the FAA would track down an individual pilot unless the pilot was involved in a serious incident. However, most pilots would voluntarily call that number and talk to the FAA because unless it were a severe situation, it is unlikely that the pilot would face serious consequences like getting a certification revoked.
If you wish to experience difficult communications, just fly VFR in the province of Quebec where fast talking Frenchmen speak their language along with the controllers. Your VFR situational awareness goes down the tube as you have no idea what is said and where the other aircraft are in relation to your position. Asking for details to assist your situational awareness creates congestion for ATC.
Stall and spin training is quite valuable, though the FAA decided the risk was too high. I'd like to see a formal FAA requirement that includes a high-fidelity simulation of a stall and spin in some kind of ground-based simulator that gives a pilot some of the physical sensations related to entering a spin.
Couldnt a subterfuge device be rigged up to have a mini cockpit so pilots could practise using thrir instruments upside down and getting upright in spin airlines all over world voukd use a big training subterfuge adopted with a cockpit it woukd save lives
The ATR is a good aircraft. Any pilots flying ANY turboprop needs to remember that just because it may be 60 Degrees AGL, once you get to cruise you can easily be well below freezing.
These Pilots upon receiving the NOTAM of ice from 12,000-21,000ft should have delayed or canceled the flight or just flown below the weather.
I’d have planned that Flight (If accepting it) to cruise at 10,000ft, giving myself 2,000ft of space.
You certainly don’t want to sit smack dab in the middle of severe Ice at 16,000/17,000ft. You also wouldn’t want to try and climb above it, because you’ll pick up Ice on the way up and then again to get back down.
Sad deal.
Thanks for a very well done and very valuable content gentlemen.
Really Not trying to defend the pilots here, they need to understand and speak english well indeed before attempting to fly into a big busy international airport, speaking a language wich is not their mother language. But “Atc woulda been screaming at him”. That kind of behavioir from atc, certainly deserves to be admonished and be educated too. Because screaming at a stressed pilot in a very busy phase of flight, will not make him speak english better, i can assure you. More. Likely will make him make more mistakes.
Brazilian 737 driver here, and i was flying the same day the voe pas ATR went down close to sao paulo. I was coming from the south, from argentina to sao paulo, a very big and strong cold weather system was coming in from the south,and i flew through that area a couple of hours later after the accident, and there was a severe icing advisory in effect, and we did indeed get ice forming on our windshield and wings as we flew past fl200 and below that. Rip all the souls lost in that terrible tragedy.
Don’t blame the pilot, the aircraft is the difficulty
Really enjoy watching your non sensational, level headed analysis and explanations. Am not a pilot and really don't like flying that much, but I feel you are educating me the best way possible. Thank you very much.
it's great to see boomers coming in to give their expert advice and opinions without all the cuts, antics, and me undies ads.
Gen-X is playing politics for the first time in their lives (and that's it), Millennials are slowly realizing they're old and becoming boomers, Gen-Z is still trying to figure themselves out, and Gen-Alpha is watching Gen-Zers overreact for 30 minutes at a time.
Thanks for your feedback. Our goal is to discuss issues, no matter how complex, as clearly as possible.
I am from Germany and did some Glider flying ages ago. In General aviation, at least back then in the 90s, it was a hit or miss whether the Tower at the local small airfield spoke English or German, but when you talked to ATC or the Tower of an airport, of course the language was English. I would say that non nativ speaker even got a small advantage when it comes to the special pronunciations or wordings within the ATC-English over native English speakers. For us those were „only“ new vocabulary you‘d need to learn, just like everything else in English, were nativ speakers need to change up thinks within their mothers tongue - and that can be a challenge. But I was totally shocked to hear, that French ATC even at big international airports talk French with their own Airlines. Now this poses a risk for everybody who doesn‘t speak French and even worse, when they are non-native English speakers who then hear French and some very frenchy English and also need to fly their airliners.
Very informative and important video to spread awareness on this subject matter . These two men are beyond experienced and know what they’re talking about .
Never a good sign when ATC starts baby-talking to you.
Of course we don´t know at the moment what caused this crash. But I heard one statement about this Crash which is still very convincing to me: Even if no Crash would have happened it would have been a mistake to fly in the severe icing conditions as this Pilots probably did.
So it´s most probably not a "Single-Issue-Event" like Icing alone what crashed this Aircraft but a "Swiss-Cheese-Event" with more than one causing and/ or contributing factors.
Thank you very much for picking this event up!
It’s a pleasure listening to you three
err, two
@@SuperDave_BR549In this episode, it's two out of three. But it's three. These guys are the best in the business.
Excellent analysis of the atr crash. 👍👍
So thankful I found your channel. I have watched you guys on Mayday and other channels in interviews. Wonderful news you have a channel! Thank you so very much!
Mayday is a great program, and Greg, John, and I have been on many episodes over the years. This podcast allows us to go into areas of aviation safety that complement the kind of information seen on Mayday and similar television productions.
Great reporting as usual guys! Looking forward to the follow-on.
Sadly as always the pilot will probably be blamed as its cheaper than modifying the aircraft
Two things I remember from the Roselawn accident recommendations were: hand fly when in known icing conditions and activate the anti-ice at the first sign of icing. Don't wait until you get significant ice before using anti-ice.
If this happened because of ice, how long would the autopilot have been correcting for it? Is there enough time for a pilot to notice and revert it? And could ´some´ sensor have worked in warning the pilots the autopilot was increasingly correcting for something? From my ignorant mind it seems very dangerous that it flies itself until its unrecoverable. Thanks!
Excellent job gentlemen
You are quite right, the English language by many Brazilian airline pilots aren't sharp enough.....I often listen to a number of flight videos on youtube and find quite difficult to understand the lingo...thanks for sharing this video.
They don’t need English they are flying inside Brazil
The trouble with this aircraft is the wing section/xsection which seems to encourage ice to form close to the aileron. I would not fly in this aircraft and it really needs redesign of the wing. Ground until modified, you guys have done a terrifically good job. I am a retiredCertification Engineer and private pilot. Other type of this aircraft are nowhere as critical and have i believe a different wing section
My first spin lesson was terrifying. The second lesson was fun."
This accident not only caused loss of life but also provided a lesson in the importance of communication and coordination in the aviation industry.
Y’all’s team is doing a lot to help GA safety.
As for the pilot facing communication issues, the challenge of English in aviation is pretty complex. A pilot who isn’t a native English speaker has to not only understand what air traffic control is saying but also mentally translate it. It’s essentially a two-step process, unlike what they’re used to in their own country. For some, this is more challenging than for others, and the only way to overcome it is through training-lots of it. That said, any pilot aiming to fly in foreign airspace has to be prepared for this. Fortunately, there are plenty of resources available, including websites that focus on language practice and sharing experiences in various languages.
ATC is just there to provide a service. They are not there to ensure compliance only separation. Send this guys tail number to the FAA and ICAO.
the local media made a article with a picture showing that the de-icing system of this plane was not working , also never a plane in brazil had a accident due to ice so that was unheard in brazil really , theres a unconfirmed rumour that the pilot has asked the ATC to lower the altitude but didnt called mayday also because never in brazil a plane had a accident due to ice so no one was thinking that it could crash - so he maybe tried to keep the altitude even without getting the speed due to ice instead of lower the nose
Brazilian here. Our media are not reliable sources - they don't stay factual, but they cherry pick, take things out of context, create narratives with facts.
There's some previous aviation accidents or serious incidents in Brasil due ice. Two examples, one fatal.
FINAL REPORT - 025/CENIPA/2013 (Google for RF_A-025CENIPA2013_PP-AJV.pdf - English version), - a fatal accident in February 2013 with King Air C-90 PP-AJV due ice formation. Their flight route was basically same of ATR-72 Voepass Flight 2283 that spin to the ground in August 9, 2024.
FINAL REPORT IG-136/CENIPA/2013A (Google for PP-PTU_26JUL2013_ing_IG.pdf - English version ) - a serious incident in July, 2013 with ATR-72 with 62 people onboard in a nigh flight in Northeast of Brasil. The Aircraft enter in ice formation area, loose speed, stall, fall ~5000 feet, but control was reestablish and landing safety in destination. Pilotos errors: keep the aircraft in autopilot after enter in the ice area, pilot fight against the stick pusher when the aircraft stall, co-pilot feathered the propellers - manufacturer manual instruct set in 100%.
>>> "also never a plane in brazil had a accident due to ice so that was unheard in brazil really "
This is not correct, here in Brazil in 2013 there was a fatal accident with the Beechcraft C90A and a serious incident with the ATR-72-312 due to ice. I previously posted a more detailed answer, but it was blocked or censored.
And the media here is not trustworthy, it manipulates the news.
Murphy's general laws. (Anything that can go wrong will go wrong). Great podcast gentleman. I enjoyed watching, thank you..
I have flown into Logan during rush hour in a Maule and landed on 33L . They wanted 120Kts to the numbers. I told them I can't land if I keep that speed. I need to be 60kts over the numbers or I am going to be really long. I would be tying up the runway for precious seconds. The controllers have a heavy accent and talk fast.
Besides the obvious question of why the pilots decided to fly into weather with a sigmet for severe icing between FL120 to FL210, it seems very likely the autopilot disconnected in IMC when no longer able to correct trim for the input parameters, encountered a stalled tail with an aft configuration, lost 1,000 ft after sticker shaker activated, had insufficient airspeed using ailerons to correct yaw while already in the unrecoverable flat spin. Many operators insist pilots always use the autopilot for all phases of flight which promotes complacency.
The fact that weather can be so dangerous has always made me nervous about flying. The fact that someone is allowed to get a vfr pilot license take off and then accidentally fly into some clouds is astonishing to me amd makes me wonder why anyone would fly without being able to land using your instruments. Is it common for VFR pilots to turn around 180 degrees and land at their origin airport when they encounter weather?
I did listen to show but I am not commenting about it; rather about an accident that the FSD show folks can dissect. It is Air Moorea Flight 1121. It appears to have good lessons for maintenance and parking of planes. I think this would probably falls right at the alley of John.
Thanks
I found a report in French on the BEA site. If I can't find an official report in English, I'll spend some time with Google Translate and look at it to see if we could do a decent show on that event.
Why the ATC recording of Voepass 2283 was hidden from the public?
Because it is in investigation yet
What he said below. Good episode, guys.
With all the modern electronics, would it be practical or possible to relay the speed along with the position and altitude from the transponder?
That technology is widely available and, depending on the location, would be required equipment. However, there are many situations where an aircraft is not required to have that kind of equipment, but ATC procedures are effective at maintaining safe separation, and ATC, in my experience, has been very good at anticipating issues and giving pilots guidance to avoid other aircraft.
I have a question about when you are given that number to call. Who monitors whether or not the reported flight follows up and actually does make the call. So in this case the pilot is from another country. What’s to stop them from not calling and just heading back home?
Good question. I don't know if the FAA would track down an individual pilot unless the pilot was involved in a serious incident. However, most pilots would voluntarily call that number and talk to the FAA because unless it were a severe situation, it is unlikely that the pilot would face serious consequences like getting a certification revoked.
In other words, communication is a huge problem in international aviation, and a potential cause of fatal accidents.
If you wish to experience difficult communications, just fly VFR in the province of Quebec where fast talking Frenchmen speak their language along with the controllers. Your VFR situational awareness goes down the tube as you have no idea what is said and where the other aircraft are in relation to your position. Asking for details to assist your situational awareness creates congestion for ATC.
Spins should be require again
Stall and spin training is quite valuable, though the FAA decided the risk was too high. I'd like to see a formal FAA requirement that includes a high-fidelity simulation of a stall and spin in some kind of ground-based simulator that gives a pilot some of the physical sensations related to entering a spin.
Couldnt a subterfuge device be rigged up to have a mini cockpit so pilots could practise using thrir instruments upside down and getting upright in spin airlines all over world voukd use a big training subterfuge adopted with a cockpit it woukd save lives
❤❤❤
Am I the only one who thinks the pilot was operating while intoxicated? I didn't like that mumbled speech
Could be a diabetic as well, blood sugar could have been high. Sometimes presents as being intoxicated.
@@lynkritikos4089It could be. I was also thinking of transitory ischemic attack (kind of a mini brain stroke)
He was under the influence of something.
tequila would say