KC - you need to get out of the WOKE gen and wake up to smell the coffee - its called "planned obsolescence" all manufactures are having issues right now - go cry me a river - dude. You learned what where why when and how. Eric does engines well. I just changed the "life long" CVT oil in my 2016 Subaru Forester XT White and she has 125k still shifts great I've taken from Los Gatos CA to Woodstock GA and back - 🎶 East bound and down 🎶
Hey, a bunch of questions I'm qualified to answer as a subaru tech. First off, this 2014 OB's TR580 was the 2nd year of the existence of the 580. The powerflow and components inside of it are quite different from the TR690, which became the "big boy" transmission but was also the first model, which debuted in the 2010-12 legacy/outback. The primary issue the early TR690s would face is chain slip, which generally is caused by a dip of fluid pressure. Through years of iteration and improvements, these problems have largely been corrected as long as the vehicle load is kept on the lower end. (Ascent problems notwithstanding.) The common fail point in the TR580 by contrast is usually a valve body solenoid failure, either the torque converter lockup solenoid (which is basically always applied) or the transfer clutch solenoid (aka "awd" or "center diff"). In either case, the valve body is a serviceable component, with a new one in the ~$700 range MSRP. the 580 has also gone through a number of revisions and updates through the years and has landed at a fairly stable place nowadays. @2:08 how many 4EAT/5EAT transmissions had problems? Less than these early CVTs, but definitely not zero either. It took a solid 5-6 years-worth of recalls and bulletins before the 4EAT landed in a stable place. The 5EAT was only used behind the higher-output engines (EZ30/36 in a tribeca, for example) and was pretty solid but occasionally would have 3-4 or 3-2 slip issues. @2:20 the tailshaft cup is missing, looks super weird without it> The transmission is designed to be serviced when it's stood up on its snout, would have had an easier time that way lol. @4:14 yes, it was. That's the transfer clutch drum, aka the center diff. As the piston you're holding squishes, it sends power out to the rear driveshaft, which splines onto the end you pushed through. @5:18 you don't need to take that nut off, as I assume you're about to discover. That is the pinion shaft, and will lead to the front differential. @5:51 this is where you'd find the aforementioned valve body. It is accessible in the car relatively easily without having to move anything; there's just enough space in the transmission tunnel to sneak in there and remove this cover plate. I assume the valve body was removed so that it could be rebuilt. @6:11 this cover is primarily just a chain that runs from the torque converter to the oil pump. This cover is a very common source of leaks on newer TR690s, and occasionally a leak point on TR580s. An indexing prybar is the ideal tool to remove this. @7:42 thank you for bringing this up -- because a differential will always have some metal-on-metal wear and therefore metal in the fluid, I think one reason subaru CVTs are more robust than their jatco/nissan counterparts is because of this fluid separation. (In the nissan transmissions, the diff is lubricated by the trans fluid.) Also, I'll put this blurb here, but Subaru does not have a *required* interval for diff fluid service, only an "inspect and replace as necessary" every 30k, but in my experience it'll already look pretty gross at 30k (from break-in) and then be fine until 90/150/210/etc. from there on out. Subaru calls the CVT fluid a "lifetime" fluid, and I'm sure you have an opinion on that, but their criteria for it being failed is if it is no longer translucent. While the stuff coming out of this trans is quite dark, it does not appear to be murky, and so in Subaru's eyes would be considered "ok." (Most technicians would agree doing them on a 60k interval is fine for normal use. Subaru does say replacement at ~30k miles if you "tow regularly" -- and does not elaborate what that means.) @8:49 this is a serviceable part but it's called a "strainer" not a filter, and it's more akin to the pickup screen in your engine's oil intake. The amount of metal on that magnet is average to less-than-average. That fluid view at 9:00 though, is not normal. @10:35 early-00's and older subarus also used a double-roll-pin axle with stub shafts in the front. Company23 makes an *excellent* punch tool for servicing those. @11:21 I have literally never seen or even heard of a leaking shift shaft seal on any subaru auto transmission. (They all use a very similar design.) @12:16 and this is about as far as we're supposed to do teardowns at the dealer level. While the chains/sheaves/etc. parts *are* available in the parts catalog, subaru does not provide the special tools necessary to decompress the sheave and remove the chain set. However, all master techs do a full disassembly and reassembly of a CVT as part of the training program, so I suppose someday we might be doing rebuilds. @13:06 subaru calls this the "manual valve" and it's connected to the shift selector you elegantly removed -- this hydraulically controls shifting through the valve body. Should note here everything from the selector lever in the car all the way to the valve body is all physically linked; no electronic shifter gizmos in any subaru (so far). @13:30 this is the step where the sheave would be separated -- you'd need essentially a huge 2-jaw or 3-jaw puller on the big side to release the chain from the sheave. There's a really good youtube video from a Kennedy Transmissions shop in St Paul, MN doing a teardown of an early TR690 -- he shows the puller in use. @13:48 that chain guide probably popped out during disassembly -- if it popped out during operation it would be all chewed up or broken -- but inspecting that chain guide was part of the WRK recall process for the 19-21 Ascent. @16:30 this is the forward/reverse clutch drum and planetary set. In the TR580, when you pick R, everything after this set spins "backwards" -- chain and sheaves included -- and then when you select "D" all of that stuff needs to change direction. This means, if you own a TR580, ***do not shift from R to D while the car is still rolling.*** One of the major differences between this and the TR690 is that the D/R planetary set comes after the chain/sheaves. @17:18 the smell comes from the air trapped in the bolt holes, it's like a stale, fishy, crabapple blossom-y kind of smell. You'll get it when pulling the engines apart too. @18:00 very good, yes those rotating cups set the pre-load. They're also basically impossible to remove once corrosion sets in on the case, even with the correct special tools. @20:53 those diff bearings don't look tooooo bad. We've had more than a few cases where a "quick oil change* place will try to do a front diff fluid service, drain it, and then use the wrong port to try to "fill" it. They dump 1.4 qt of gear oil into the trans and leave the f diff empty, which means they get to buy a new trans for the customer. @22:45 looks like we're taking apart the transfer clutch. There is a current TSB for the Ascent for this clutch having some pretty bad wear in the drum and causing a binding, which leads to wheel chatter around turns. Haven't seen that failure in any other CVT though. It *was* a somewhat-common problem in early 4EAT transmissions. You can see just a little bit of wear at 23:01 on the sides of the drum. @25:40 never thought to take apart a chain that way, lol, interesting technique. Hoping you'll show us the faces of the sheaves here, as if this was experiencing "chain slip" you'd see some scoring on the faces of the sheaves. @22:67 yeah i'm not seeing anything obvious in there. Not really sure what failed in this one that necessitated replacement tbh. Could have been from bearing noise or could be misdiagnosis. Anyway, I'm a very regular contributor at r/subaru, if you or anyone else has any questions feel free to post up :)
Having owned 5 subi's.. all were manuals .. Subaru and others should have sued for producing a product that was designed to fail just to meet an EPA mandated. Working in logistics for 30 years, if CVT's were that awsome every unit in the operation would have used them. The most efficient and long lasting method of power transfer is gears. From forklifts to yard mules and container loaders.
Incredible writeup. I should pop over to r/Subaru to see your recommendations for buying a used CVT-Subaru. The 6MT hasn't been the smoothest in my '18 Forester and I've had to stiffen up the transmission crossmember bushings using a 'positive shift kit'. I went with a boomba racing shift plate but should've stuck with Kartboy or Perrin and/or just ordered the boomba racing short throw shifter. Is the transmission fluid on the 6MT the same as it is for the front drive axle, or?
We don't know how the car was driven, and if the transmission fluid was changed out often enough. You gotta change that oil every 30 grand. I have experience with jatco cvt's. You can't run and gun with a cvt, you gotta take it easy.
Me personally, I change CVT oil every 20k miles....you can't trust the manufacturer recommendations. It also helps if the CVT has a starting gear... starting from a dead stop is hard on them.
It's easy to ascribe this sort of mentality to literally any company, but in my experience, that has never been Subaru's design and engineering ethos. They know that people buy to own and keep the cars a very long time. Subaru has made a lot of mistakes, but I genuinely do not think this is intentional. The Subaru CVT is generally quite reliable with regular fluid changes and aside from the first few years having solenoid pack issues. Also very easy cars to work on, contrary to what internet memes would tell you, and that traces back to engineering that considers the owner as well.
The problem with planned obsolescence, is the bad feelings you generate in your customer base. You want people to keep buying new cars, and every person you piss off because their car cratered, can cost you multiple sales. I owned a 2002 Chevy Malibu that started mixing oil and coolant at around 28,000 miles. It did it outside of the age warranty, when the value of the car was about the same as the cost to fix it. I won't buy a Chevrolet again.
I bought my Mazda 6 because it had a normal automatic transmission. Was originally looking at a Nissan but they all had cvt's. The real transmission sold me. Great car.
I've got a 1999 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon with the original 4EAT automatic transmission currently a 320,000 miles. No issues, shifts perfectly and i take the car off-roading all the time.
The most interesting part is the fluid that gives the chain the “traction” on the smooth variators (pulleys as you called them) that makes it able to drive and be driven.
Knowing the ins and outs of a car engine is one thing, but I am in awe of anyone who can work on automatic transmissions. There are SO many little parts, and each one is different in its own way. And don't forget the engineers who come up with these ideas and successfully build them.
There are people (I'm one of them but not at super high level) that are able to tear apart, clean and reassemble a minute repeater tourbillon mechanical wristwatch composed by hundreds (like 500/600) minuscule parts, I don't see any problem with an automatic transmission :) Much simplier. The difference is done by experience: in this case all looks fine but there's a reason if this was replaced, and see the reason is the key :)
@@AlessandroGenTLe The thing is, when you're working on the watch, at least you don't have to haul it out of a car and there's not someone that doesn't know what time it is while you're fixing it :)
It’s really not that difficult. You dive into the diagrams, schematics and written tasks and become very familiar and comfortable that it becomes second nature.
Honestly at any decent tech school they have you tear down and rebuild an auto trans. Some people even specialize in it. But this shit is warp science. And also stupid IMO.
@@LoveMyZJthey have a 2 apwwd auto with a cvt overdrive. Cvt are great for a narrow band. Toyota also does not lie and say to never change the fluid like SOA. Subaru says only cars in the eu and Canada need to change the fluid and Japan under extreme conditions. The extreme conditions are things like over 50mph and outside 40-90f.
Bought my teenage daughter a one owner 03 Outback as a first car back in 2017. It was an H6 model Limited with just over 200k on the odometer. Car was mint outside of the mileage. After about a year and a half the auto transmission quit. Bought a used transmission for $500 from a Japanese salvage yard and we swapped it ourselves. About a year later the 2nd transmission started acting up. This time it was intermittent. Sometimes you'd start the car and put it in gear and nothing would happen, other times it would work fine. I figured it was something electrical. Called the local Subaru dealer for service but all they would do is verify the transmission had issues and if it did, they would just replace the entire transmission. Didn't matter if it was a single inexpensive part. Sold the car for parts after that.
My son bought a new Chevy Spark years ago which had a CVT. He hated it, had it at the dealer numerous times because the transmission didn't seem right. After 18 months and 15,000 or so miles he traded it in for another new Chevy spark with a 5 speed on the floor. Loves it and has had it for 4 years now with no issues.
I have a four-speed automatic 09 Subaru Forester got 176,000 miles on it. Transmission still doing pretty good. I don’t like any vehicles with the CVT I’ll take a manual or automatic any day.
I've overhauled AT's from 1980 down, including 5 to 16 speed 18 wheeler trans, but I'm glad I never had to do one of these, looks more like a puzzle. Good luck Eric !! 😮
I used to love the CVTs in the 2002-2005 Saturn Vue. I made SO much money off of those. In AWD models the belt would explode every 20-40k miles, FWD would last about 60k. CVTs are a great idea in theory, but they just can’t handle the torque. Trying to drive a vehicle solely on metal friction just doesn’t work. The amount of fluid pressure they need is crazy and the drums are so heavy.
The sulfur based EP additives start out smelling bad, then get worse when they form complex sulfur compounds as they are 'activated' by the heat of metal-to-metal contact. The complex compounds are what keeps the contacting metal parts from sticking to each other then tearing apart. Complex sulfur compounds have various smells, all unpleasant. Bottom line: yes, resisting extreme pressure causes more stink.
1djbecker, good post. useful info to know. rotten egg gas, fart gas, thioles, garlic, the odours added to natural gas for safety reasons, skunk smells, they are all sulfur smells.
_"Complex sulfur compounds have various smells, all unpleasant"_ I beg to disagree, as garlic, green onion (and regular one), leek and such all have their right (if not righteous) place in cuisines all over the world - be it Chinese, Mexican, Indian or Mediterranean one - and oh, speaking of Indian cuisine - "stinking resin", in Latin "asa foetida", aka "asafetida" (or "hing" in Hindi) - not to mention truffles... And then "one month old tuna" would NOT smell of sulphur compounds, but of all sort of primary organic amines (or di- and tri-amines) - as all rotting bodies do. Putrescine (butane-1,4-diamine) and cadaverine (pentane-1,5-diamine) are the best know examples. Also, that "fish-like" smell many men find strangely attractive ("strangely", heh heh...) is amine-based, and oh, while at it (pun not intended) - skatole, _"the primary contributor to faecal odour"_ (which, funnily enough _"in low concentrations, it has a flowery smell and is found in several flowers and essential oils, including those of orange blossoms and jasmine; it has also been identified in certain cannabis varieties"_ ), so this skatole is also an organic amine (secondary one). ...but I digress here ;-)
I have a 2016 highlander hybrid, with CVT and I love it, and yeah you got it 340K miles, I tow my boat all over with it and its been fantastic, now Im worried of getting another CVT vehicle, I feel lucky to have gotten this many miles
The clutch pack inside the rear housing is for the rear output. There is a solenoid valve that supplies fluid, and should give about 10% engagement at all times, keeping some fluid running through there. When a speed mismatch is detected, the computer opens that valve, engaging the rear output solidly. On the old 4EAT cars, it had power supplies constantly, and was grounded by the computer iirc. You could add a wire and switch to ground to manually engage the rear output. Pulling the AWD fuse under the hood would remove the power, so it wouldn't try engaging when you had a tire mismatch or something. This one looks like someone screwed with the carrier adjusters, maybe they were chasing a noise, but probably shouldn't have been in there.
Believe me, as a Subaru Master Tech, those chains do sometimes come apart. No drive or reverse coupled with an Intermediate Shaft Speed Sensor No Signal is a strong sign. Lately I’ve been seeing valve bodies fail and cause a similar situation, but no DTCs, the changeover solenoid or fluid circuit bleeds off pressure. The rate of failure on these transmissions is relatively low, we just see more because Subaru is pumping cars out faster and faster every year
The electronically controlled automotive cvt is a fascinating thing, and on paper a great idea. When under low throttle demand, the engine can run exactly where it's most efficient, and when you out your foot down it can hold engine rpm at it's power peak, best of both worlds. Unfortunately, they don't seem to work in reality as well as they do on paper. They seem to last ok in the very small cars (Nissan versa for example) but in the bigger things not so much. I believe it's just as you scale up for a larger vehicle (even just midsized car) the friction required to make it work goes up exponentially, hence greater failures.
I have a 2015 Honda CRV with the CVT. So far it’s been just fine. There are aspects of the driving experience I like, and some I’m less thrilled by. Recognizing that the CVT is much cheaper to manufacture than a traditional automatic, I expect to see more of these in the coming years as car manufacturers seek to reduce component costs.
We’ve owned 9 Subarus. Also Toyota, Honda, Mazda. All have been very reliable. Four of our Subarus have/had Cvt’s. Never one problem, the highest mileage is currently at 134k. The key I learned from Mr. Subaru & Scotty Kilmer is, I have the dealer change the CVT fluid every 40k miles. It gets hot & dirty. Just like oil or transmission fluid.
Yes true but unlike a geared transmission even a Subaru CVT really needs to have the fluid changed. CVTs build up alot of heat and fluid breaks down quickly.
Someone's been driving this around with mismatched tire sizes or a low tire. The clutch pack on the rear section of the transmission is for transferring torque to the rear wheels.
Why is it every time I get ready to watch some other video there's a I DO Car's video that pop's up and I have no choice but to click on it. I mean I know I have a choice but I prefer to watch you tear down carnage try to salvage part's. Plus the bad joke's Always make me smile since might be getting older but I'm still as mature as a 14 yr old XD. Take care! hope you have a fantastic rest of your week.
I have a Honda Civic I just bought, with a CVT, and I like it more than I thought I would. The Honda CVT is smooth and responsive, plus it doesn't do those fake shifts. It also gets very good gas mileage around town (like 31). I am hoping it doesn't blow up soon like this Subaru one did. I think the key to these transmissions is to change the fluid every 30 to 50k. I just changed mine, and hopefully it will keep going to at least 250k.
I have a civic as well…my cvt has 170k miles on it.. I do the 30k service every time… it’s a 2016… it’s still going, but I’m starting to feel like it’s going out because I believe the belt is stretched out and feels like a sling shot when I take off from a stop.. plus there’s a slight whiny sound…many mechanics say most Honda cvts go 150k consistently when maintained.. after that, most fail @ 170k or so… Subaru are less reliable as well as Nissan, Kia, Hyundai… Toyota has the best … they last about 250k .. I knew an Uber driver that had a Toyota Corolla that had a cvt and it finally took a dump @ 325k… that was a 2015 .. they are not durable like the conventional transmissions… according to transmission shops… for those who don’t change the fluid, most go out under a 100k or way less then… this was told to me by a veteran transmission mechanic… he makes a fortune off the Nissans because these units get beat on …
Having watched "Precision Transmission" for a long time, and seeing him tear down a transmission in under 5 minutes -yes- this was truly entertaining. Not that I could have done any better.
@@JustinMonast and they're still posting fire videos showing off Richard being a genius to this very day, dude could probably rebuild a 4Lslippy in his sleep and have it fully built and ready to go by the time he wakes up the next morning.
I like that channel too. Richard has rebuilt hundreds, if not thousands of 4L60e transmissions. Among others of course, but his bread and butter seems to be the 4L60e.
Have 4 Subaru. One has 132K miles, other 92K, 60K and 24K. Those transmissions need service periodically even if the manual says different. You notice a big difference after they are serviced
The quick answer is no, they should not all fail. The Subaru CVT offerings are generally very reliable except for the early years years and two specific transmission. Generally 2012-2017 is the trouble range, but not all cars. Most of them actually have issues with the solenoid pack rather than the transmission itself, though dealers usually just do a full replacement, which is far more expensive and not actually necessary. MrSubaru has covered these issue very well. I have a friend with a 2014 Crosstrek that the dealer said needed a new CVT. I asked him the codes and symptoms and told him to deny the service and have them replace the solenoid pack and replace the fluid instead. They did so and the car has been fine for many years now. Saved them over $4,000 IIRC. For the mechanically inclined, it's actually a relatively easy job. The early Ascent CVT also had its own issues which Subaru has admitted to, so people should be wary of that. There is an extended warranty and some kind of settlement. I believe the current iteration is improved. The other issue is the fluid service interval recommended, which Subaru, like many companies, definitely screwed up on. I believe they introduced it as a lifetime fluid, which was actually meant to be 100-120K miles, but owners should actually change the fluid every 40-60K miles ideally. I believe newer cars recommend a more regular interval rather than calling it lifetime, but I haven't actually checked the current recommendations. For the early CVT, a solenoid pack change and regular fluid service should keep them going for a very long time. For anything from the last 8 years or so, just a regular fluid service and it should be good to go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big CVT fan either and the old Subaru automatic was far more bulletproof and worry free. It's just also true that Subaru has had one of the better overall CVT records in the industry, sad as that may be.
I appreciate you of all people laying it out like that. Too many people think "CVT = BAD" When, like you say, the dealers exacerbate the belief by not directly solving the problem, just replacing it. My parents have a '12 Outback they've owned since new and only recently at ~220,000km had the solenoid pack replaced, despite both the local dealer and an independent shop telling them "treat it like a beater, run it into the ground" which is a sin, because the car is actually quite nice. That generation of Legacy/Outback are fantastic automobiles.
Thank you for this comment my dad has a 2010 first year production of the tr690 and it needed a torque converter lockup solenoid at 180k miles. ( he put a whole new valve body on himself because it was lower risk and Subaru doesn’t sell only solenoids I find that insane) new fluid and it runs like new now. I have a 2011 with the same transmission runs just fine no issues and no service history 😂/. I’m not saying they are perfect they should have spaced a service interval from the get go they have two filters one is not serviceable without disassembly and that is a mistake and they should sell hard parts for them. People are finding ways to keep them going but Subaru has indeed treated it like a throw away and it’s a damn shame. It’s a weird transmission but it’s just a family car not a race car And it works just fine.
Hi i recently i bought a 2015 Subaru 3.6r outback with 125 k miles . I think it has rhe tr690 cvt. Can this motor and cvt reach 250k miles if i do drain and fill on cvt evey 30k miles or less? Thanks for your response
@@peterad1529 jf i do this from 125k miles , i should get to 250k miles no problem? And is it the subaru orange coloree cvt fluid? Is subaru cvt more reliable than nissan?
How convenient it died immediately after the extended warranty ran out. We bought my wife's '14 Outback from a Subaru tech who had thankfully just replaced the transmission under warranty before putting it up for sale. I've been doing fluid changes on it every 15k miles since we got it and fingers crossed it's still solid 40k miles later.
@@jermsman18 Not terrible. The pan has a drain plug. I just do a spill and fill. It doesn't get all of it but it drains enough to make it worth your while.
@@HenrySomeone Because everything else about the car has been rock solid. They're extremely stable and extremely safe. Both interested me greatly considering she's hauling my son around in it all the time. If you've ever driven a Subaru in nasty weather you would quickly understand the appeal to them. Subarus get a really bad reputation because the majority of their owners don't properly maintain them. I've been daily driving my 500whp WRX for 5 years and have put 40k carefree miles on it. If you take care of them they will last as long as you want. They're also some of the easiest cars I've ever worked on. If at some point down the road I have to spend $500~ to replace a transmission that I can swap myself in a few hours I think that's a pretty fair trade for all the benefits I get from the car. Besides, can you even name one car that people haven't discovered some sort of defect with over time?
Subarus are ok, at best. If I’m looking to feel secure in bad weather I can assure you it’s not in a Subaru…it will be a Land Cruiser everyday and twice on Sunday.
I am one of those people. We have 291,434 miles on our 2014 Forester. We have NEVER had a fluid change or valve body change. I want to do both soon though. Maybe we are just some of the fortunate ones.
One thing about the CVT, the fluid is designed to provide friction, not remove it. It also must cool the unit. It is imperative that to make them last, the fluid must be exchanged with the same type about every 30k miles.
Friction doesn't generate heat if the two mating surfaces don't move relative to one another. That's how a manual transmission clutch works -- it generates no heat when you're in gear. The CVT generates perhaps a little heat as the belt moves up and down the sheaves, but not much if there's no slippage. AWD clutches between front and rear hardly ever slip much, either. The tires accommodate most slippage. You're confusing moving friction, such as cranks and cams in bearings, and piston rings sliding in cylinders, all of which generate heat from rubbing, with static friction where no heat is generated due to no relative motion between surfaces. In a CVT, the biggest power loss is the pump, which runs conatantly to press the two sets of sheaves together - hard - that prevents the push chain from slipping. I don't see mucg wrong with this CVT myself. It's very well made and machined. No cheapjack parts anywhere. The front diff seems iffy, and that's not part of the CVY at all. The missing control module -- now what was wrong with that? One wonders. In other words, after this teardown Eric has no clue what caused it to be condemned, and neither does anyone else here. All people have is opinions, so who cares what they think? I don't, when people opine nonsense out of their left ear based on nothing whatsoever, especially knowledge. And no, I don't own a Subaru -- I did once, and the five speed Jatco automatic ate itself. About the same time the rear subframe rusted apart. Based on the zero knowledge the Subru dealer mechanics had about the 5-speed, I'd bet they know zero about the CVT. So what were the symptoms of failure here? Nobody knows. But they have solid totally uninformed opinions. Meh. I learned nothing whatsoever from this teardown.
2018 legacy. Absolutely loved, loved that car. My buddy had one (2015) prompting me to get one. His cvt crapped out at 87k out of basic warranty. Mine started making whining noise (Subaru shop said tranny going out) at 104k even though serviced transmission per schedule. He junked his as it was $8,200 to get a factory rebuild and he didn't have the time to search and coordinate shipping a used one and who knows the condition of the used one from a junkyard. I dumped mine on Carvana. I am now a die-hard Toyota fan for life.... a real transmission that can handle it and serviceable. I'm happy for those of you that were fortunate enough to have yours last. I should have known when the Subaru salesman and Finance Manager told me to buy an extended warranty because of known transmission issues but I just thought they were upselling me on an unnecessary warranty. Disappointing. Edit.... Mine was a v6 supposedly heavier duty CVT
i own a 2018 limited legacy 4 cylinder myself. thanks for your post, i changed the CVT fluid at 40000 miles and even then it started skipping gears at 60000 miles. changed it again at 60 k and it already turned dark at 80k though not skipping gears this time. forewarned is forearmed. i am going to get rid of it before it hits 100k miles and ido have the Subaru gold plus extended warranty which has incidentally already paid for itself. i too live the car when it runs smoothly, but there is a huge difference in reliability between the legacy (assembled in indiana) vs the Crosstrek i also own (assembled in gunma, Japan). ah well, time for a hybrid with E-CVT or EV
i also wanted to add that while Subaru extended the CVT warranty to 100k miles, its not particularly reassuring especially after that. Clearest indicator that one needs to get rid of the car before 100 k miles
@@leslielucci3182 I hope your car holds up for as long as possible. i owned a VW GLX V6 passat wagon before this with automatic transmission and while not the most reliable of cars, the transmission lasted 250000 miles before failing ( 2 fluid topoff as per manual at 80k and 160k, not even replacement). pros and cons i suppose
I think of belt-and-pulley style CVT's like this: Lets say I had a shaft that I wanted to rotate. Instead of putting some splines on that shaft and using a gear to turn it, I'm going to stick a ball bearing on the shaft. Then I am going to squeeze that bearing so hard that the bearing locks up and I can turn the shaft by spinning the outer bearing race. It isn't a perfect example, but it gives you an idea of what this system is trying to do. It is squeezing these metal pins in the belt really hard in one direction, and then pushing on those same pins in another direction to actually transfer power from the engine to the wheels. That is a whole lot of stress on those pins from multiple directions at the same time. We have the advanced materials to make belt-and-pulley systems work, but they are always going to be putting a lot of stress on their core components to make the squeeze-so-hard-it-doesn't-slip thing work compared to a normal automatic or a manual.
There's some clever molecular mechanics going on in the oils that these transmissions use as well. Under extreme pressure the molecules form a rigid microfilm that is essentially a solid connection between the two metal parts, but without actual metal contact.
The only good CVT is the "hybrid synergy drive" because it isn't a CVT at all, it's a single planetary gearset with a motor on the planetary carrier so that the speed and direction of the motor adjusts the ratio of the engine to the wheels. It irritates me how such a cool concept creates such a dull driving experience, but I will high five any Toyota engineer who worked on it. And PSA: when considering a Toyota Hybrid, none of the "CVT problems" will affect you. It doesn't even have a torque converter.
@@thirdpedalnirvana Believe it or not, I had a whole paragraph typed up about Toyota's planetary gear based eCVT and why it was better, but I ended up cutting it out! Suffice it to say, I agree with you. It is a much better system than a pusher belt.
@@sadlerbw9 idk why mechanical automotive cvts are even a thing when eCVTs exist. CVTs are better for fuel economy but hybrids with an eCVT are even better than CVTs without the reliability problems. Trucks, V6 cars, crossovers, etc. should all have traditional automatics or manuals, with an option for a hybrid system in some cases. Also, while mild hybrid systems can offer increased fuel economy, the small increase versus how expensive the starter-alternator-motors are to replace when they inevitably fail just isn't worth it. True hybrids and plug-in hybrids are just better, full stop. The comical thing is that Toyota uses a regular CVT in the modern Corolla. Theirs are a bit more robust as they have a crawler/launch gear to reduce strain on the chain when taking off from a stop, but they still aren't as good as a hybrid eCVT as far as efficiency and potential power output if Toyota would for the love of god make their eCVT equipped hybrids more responsive. Shoulda gone with a 5 or 6 speed auto for the non-hybrid non-GR Corolla imho, but at least the Corolla is far more appropriately sized for a regular CVT than a Nissan Maxima.
Worked at a Jeep dealer about a decade ago, can confirm, CVTs can go to the fieriest pit of hell. Had a man buy lifetime powertrain warranty, he drives A LOT. How much? He had a 2012 Jeep Compass with the good ol' 2.4 mated to the CVT. 500,000 miles in 5 years. We replaced 6 transmissions, the damn oil pan wasn't even seeping. I'd say he got his money's worth.
The only non-CVT transmission Subaru has had any issues with over the last 30 years is the 5MT that eventually ended up on the WRX. It was originally designed to mate up to a 70hp engine, and didn't start having issues until the WRX started approaching 250hp. The 6-speed manual they designed for the STI was mated to a 300hp engine, but easily handles up to 600hp. They obviously lowered their standards considerably for the CVT.
Well 70hp is quite a stretch. The Subaru 5 speed design used in the early USDM WRX circa 2002 was launched with the Legacy circa 1989. That came with the EJ22 along with the EJ18 and numerous other variants, but also the EJ20 turbo in Japan. Those engines made anywhere from 110hp to 217 or so. It was designed to handle 200 horsepower or more quite easily, but 227 and a lot of extra weight was pushing it. Add some mods or sticky tires and it got too spicy. By changing gear geometry and adding some strength to the case, they pretty much mitigated the issues and kept using that trans design for... many years.
@@802Garage The original 5MT arrived with the AWD models of the Subaru Leone in the early 70s. They did revamp it a bit for the 1985 model year, but that was still the Leone.
@@sproutpits Just did a bunch of research and yeah it def appears the design is shared with the 1985+ Leone/Loyale. Always more to learn. I thought only the bell housing pattern and some other design aspects were shared. There are a lot of changes internally and some externally though, especially the further you get along. I mean they used the same transmission in the early WRX and really there weren't any reliability issues even in the turbo Legacy. Problems started to pop up with the 2002 WRX which was a fair bit heavier, plus people started pumping up the power. At that point you started to see split cases or stripped second gear. They pretty much fixed those issues with a couple years of revisions. I getcha though.
No, the original four speed Subaru manual came out about 1973. By screwing around with bits here and there, hanging another gear outside rhe box but inside the space devoted to the AWD gubbins, they eventually managed to squeeze 6 speeds into the box. That is the crap notchy WRX box the WRX has today. The STI 6 speed was bespoke and rugged. A different beast entirely. Now the 5-speed auto that went into Legacu GTs and H-6 equipped Subarus was no star at all. I and many others had problems with that so-so piece.
@@802Garage Ya, it's an interesting story. I'm invested in it because I've owned a 2002 WRX since it was new and went through the process of adding power until I had to swap to a 6-speed. I never did break the 5-speed, but I was more careful with it than I am with the 6-speed.
We own a 2015 Forester. A solenoid on the valve body went bad 200 miles shy of the extended 100,000 miles coverage and was covered by that campaign. To me, there’s a place for CVT. The biggest criticism I have is that transmissions are now advertised as “sealed” units. We have drain-and-filled the transmission fluid every 30k miles; a completely DIY job.
Tear down and failure analysis is EVERYTHING! THIS is where you learn and improve, and for me as a kid into way past 60 y/o - as a matter of fact, even now, at 82, it helps keep everything I own, everything I touch and work on-running without being able to buy new ones, or worse yet, take it to a “dealer” to have them do their usually wrong analysis and start throwing parts at the problem. My kid brother’s bike brake locked up going 180 mph downhill through avocado trees on a hill? Tear it apart, find out why it broke, use whatever few things I had (mostly pliers and a two screwdrivers), plus whatever stuff my mom and dad had that I was not supposed to touch, to fix it so the next ride downhill I had some way to stop besides laying it down and sliding 30 feet on dirt and rocks. I have even fixed a Seiko electronic where a tiny, almost invisible, wire came loose from a tiny circuit board, and it lasted another dozen years, with every jeweler who replaced the battery said I should toss it. KEEP UP THE TEARDOWNS, PLEASE!!
A mechanic at my Ford dealer told me the CVT they briefly sold in the Taurus/500 had to be serviced by 50k miles or it was practically guaranteed to die at 60k miles. The dealership couldn't source reman units, so customer cars sat on the lot for a month or more waiting for their CVTs to get rebuilt.
Man I just learn so much watching you tear apart this transmission, thank you, there was a lot of part that I did not how to remove like the central case for example, thank you Keep up the good job 👍
In comparison to the junk Jatco CVT, the design of this one is light years ahead. That's the beefiest chain I've seen so far. CVTs suffer from high torque demands when accellerating from a stop which stresses the steel belt and the splines the pulleys ride in on the shafts, leading to premature belt failure. Toyota came up with a design that uses a standard gear for first then transitions to the CVT section once inertia reduced. Great design. But I'm really impressed with the stout design of this one. Thanks for the video!
The coolest thing about CVT is that the reverse gear can go just as fast as forward. At least, I'm kinda sure they engineered some dohikey so you can't, but that's extra effort. DAF made a car with CVT, in the 60s in Holland, and crazy people raced them in reverse!
And one of the formula1 cars in the 90s I think built their own cvt with like 1000 horsepower that won the championship and their cvt was banned because they said it was like cheating. They used only the best high quality parts in that cvt transmission. So if the manufacturers actually used good quality parts cvt would be the best actually but because they use shitty parts cvt goes bad and because of the false info in the manual booklet "lifetime" fluid.
Cool, thanks for sharing the tear down. I drive a Forester XT with the CVT in it and I like the way it drives. This transmission probably would have been fine had the owner changed the fluid. Subaru saying these things are sealed, not requiring service was the dumbest thing ever. Mr. Subaru did a great video on it.. Of the CVT's on the market, Subaru's are among the better ones.. It just needs some basic maintenance! The fluid isn't cheap, but it's a lot cheaper than replacing the transmission!
My wife and I were looking to buy a newer used car, and we test drove a 2018 Forester with like 30k miles on it. Aside from the cheap feel and the wind noise on the freeway, and the dodgy handling, I noticed that the transmission was shifting "oddly". After a bit of research, I discovered that all automatic Subarus since 2009 (IIRC) are CVTs with fake shifts built into the transmission programming! No wonder it felt odd! Well, needless to say, we decided to buy something else, namely a 2018 Buick Regal TourX wagon! What a neat and quite rare car, 2018, 19 and 20 only, and they are actually Opel Insignias imported from Germany by GM. 2.0 EcoTec turbo with 250HP, 8 speed Aisin auto trans, and AWD! It's a beautiful wagon, and nobody knows what it is! We get people who think it's a BMW or Mercedes, Audi, etc. We love it! Let me know if you ever see one of these in your travels, Eric! Take care, man, and stay cool!
Rench Funny you talked about wind noise I just bought a 24 crosstrck and to me and I have owned a ton of cars in my 68 years it sounds like any other car I have owned.
@allangurr Is there more wind noise than you would expect? If not, I'm sure the aerodynamics and probably better sound insulation are at play. That Forester just felt "tinny", like when the doors closed there wasn't a nice solid "thunk", ya know?
@@renchjeep Maybe it is the model that I bought the doors sound beefy I really cant say other then it just sounds like any other car I have owned. Your not the first person that has mentioned the car being noise I again dont agree
@@dog_guy-m6b Gotcha. With the Forester being a more boxy and probably cheaper model, that might explain the wind noise I heard and the lack of wind noise in your 24 Crosstrek.
After watching your video on this Subaru CVT, I can understand why many recommend scraping rather than trying to rebuild. I guess the other option is buying a new transmission or vehicle!
@@mikefoehr235 And, I think like this one, it had nothing to do with the fact it was a CVT but rather how it was designed and built. I think that's the real problem with them: automatics had 50 years of development and CVTs had under 20. And are just a stepping stone to the mechatronic 6+ gear manuals you see now.
Thanks for the awesome subaru cvt teardown. The honda cvt teardown was awesome too. Its really interesting to see the internals. My honda cvt belt broke at 336,000 miles when i punched the gas pedal from a dead stop when the red light turned green. That was the only time i did that with this car. So i swapped that cvt with a used salvaged cvt and my honda is up to 418,000 miles now and still going. Id like to see you teardown a toyota cvt next.
As a Subaru tech I can say 95% of CVT’s won’t have an issue as long as you have them serviced. However the biggest killer of CVT transmissions is incorrect service. Shops who don’t know Subarus end up draining the front differential or cvt instead of the engine oil. Just this week I’ve had 2 cars, a 15 forester and 19 outback with 4 neutrals because a shop incorrectly serviced the vehicle
I'm an independent and I've dealt with your exact same situation with Subarus twice and also a few times with 2016+ Audi's quattro transmissions as they have 3 different fluids in the same unit. I remember one time another shop drained the hydraulic oil thinking they unscrewed the the engine drain plug. The car wouldn't move after and was smoking a lot from over filling the engine.😥
Would you change the CVT fluid on a 14-15 Forester with almost 100k miles, when you don't know the service history? Just bought one and it works fine, but I don't know if I should service the CVT or just leave it alone.
Subaru of America and 2 dealers I go to say lifetime fluid - don't change. Maybe 106K is the lifetime. On the 2 we own Subaru has extended the warranty on the CVT to 100K.
@samuhell14 and you fight with Subaru when you have a life time powertrain. NNebior just blew his up at 125k in a 2020 OB XT . The dealer just put a new one in no questions asked.
I'm always amazed at the amount of machined components that are inside transmissions. Different technologies an methods to make these parts. You've got die casting to make the housings and some cover plates. Lots of machining on those castings. Smaller steel castings for pieces like the oil pump. Fine blanking for clutch plates. Large turned parts with gears and splines machined onto the turned parts. The chain/ belt is an amazing piece of technology in itself. These cvts seem to have there own special parts compared to manual or regular automatic transmissions. Compared to engines it's not surprising that engines were developed before transmissions but I guess they probably wouldn't need a transmission until they had engines. Always fun to watch and I can truly imagine the stink of the cooked oil and components. Good stuff. 😊
I'm sure the issue was either the valve body or the TCM. Audi CVTs had a notorious TCM failure on their CVTs and you basically had to dismantle them to replace it. Ultimately there was a class action lawsuit with them and they had to replace all the CVTs under warranty up to a certain mileage and year.
My 2014 Forester had CVT issues around 120k miles because I hadn't serviced the fluid at all. The CVT required a valve body replacement at 120k. I had the mechanic do a fluid exchange and I've replaced the fluid every 40k miles after that. That Forester has nearly 200k miles on it now and the CVT is still going strong. Change the fluid every 25-40k miles and you'll be surprised how reliable they are.
As the previous unfortunate owner of two Foresters, 2015, 2017 I can say from my numerous visits to the dealer and transmission rebuild specialist (who didn't warranty their work on these CVT) that they are certain to fail prematurely whatever people say, all CVT cars in the service department at all times had transmission issues 😂
I have a 2014 Subaru legacy 180k. I just replaced the valve body solenoids. Thank you for showing the inside of the CVT. I've changed the fluid a couple times (Front Diff fluid too) and it seems to be hanging in there, but not gunna lie I feel like I'm on borrowed time with the CVT. I wish there was better maintenance options other than throw in another used transmission with less miles and unknown condition.
@@JohnSmith-pl2bk He was lying. I do 30-50K. I have 125k on the 2014 Juke and 88 on the 2017 Rogue. Both work fine. Juke slips over 60K. That was when I first got it, then it gets changed every 30K now. WHen the gas mileage drops, change the fluid immediately with genuine Nissan NS2.
The rotten egg (sulfur smell) is 1.5 quarts of very used front dif fluid coming out… it starts light brown/tan when fresh, gets darker with use. I think you took out the fill plug while attempting to get it apart! The transmission fluid starts light green and has a slight sweet smell. I wouldn’t say it smells good, but it is not bad unlike the dif fluid. 😂 I’m going to change my filter by dropping the pan at some point, probably closer to 100k miles. So this video was educational/helpful for me. Thank you sir!
I own a 2024 Toyota Corolla with 2-liter and CVT and I am impressed with the performance and fantastic MPG. This CVT employs a first gear to launch and it works! I'm 64 this year and this car will outlast me.
I have a Toyota Corolla with a CVT, and while it took some getting used to, it’s very efficient to drive. I believe it comes down to how you take care of them. They can last if taken care of, but you must use the right fluid and drain it frequently.
I took a financial hit on a 2014 nissian maxima. I got it at 104k miles. Cvt failed miserably, and I lost the car because they wanted $9k to replace it. So I pretty much threw out $7k haha and more trying to fix it. I will never own a CVT. Ended up buying a mazda 3 2017 2.5l with a real 6 speed transmission and at 23k miles on it. Anyways a year later I'm satisfied to this date.
We just had the CVT in my daughter's 2013 XV Crosstrek repaired at about 130,000 miles. A very common failure on these is the valve body, and that's what we had to replace. It's about a $1,500 repair depending on who does it. Since this is very common I was not surprised when you found the valve body missing during the teardown. I suspect someone grabbed it when that CVT died from other causes.
I love your videos! Also love to be able to see all the different engineering approaches of new and not so new. Plus your entertaining style and breath of knowledge is amazing. Thanks.
CVT transmission on my 2015 Forester failed after 50 K miles. It was replaced under extended warranty. They offered one year warranty on the replacement transmission, which seemed too short to me and I traded in the vehicle.
Thanks, I enjoyed that - on the mpg "advantage" of CVTs over MTs, that's debatable (except for Subarus due to the differing AWD setup) - everyone points to the EPA numbers like they're truth, but the test rules don't allow for MTs to be shifted at optimal shift points for a given car like the WLTP test does - take a look at WLTP ratings in EU and you'll be surprised to see MTs edging CVTs in identical car-car comparos - there's large real world datasets that also support this (e.g. Mirage forum) - with no torque converter, MTs and DCTs still have less drivetrain loss - and they're fun to drive!
Great vid and comments! As the owner of a new 2024 Forester, having abandoned a 2015 Altima, the CvT subject is very timely. I traded the Altima so I would not be sticking someone with a bad CVT. I reached 77 k with a minor code. I will do early replacement on the Subaru fluids. No such thing as lifetime.
20 year Subaru tech here. They have a higher rate of failure compared to 4Eat and 5Eat models. I believe there are a very large number that go along just fine beyond 150k-200 however because of the rate of failure finding a good one at a reasonable price is a tall task. Buy a new one? Be prepared for a $7000.00 + part alone. For a car that’s worth less than the part. That’s technically totaled over a mechanical failure. Sad. Add in the junky 2.0 or 2.5 chain drive engine after the discontinued EJ 2.5 The one people cry about doing head gaskets. Well enjoy your cam carrier leaks, chain cover leaks, excessive oil consumption, failed o-rings between block and upper oil pan allowing oil into cooling system and still have head gasket failures as well. Enjoy your plastic coolant bypass valves under the intake that will fail, and the carbon buildup on backside of direct injection intake valves, due to lightweight oil/water that does not have the same lubricity ratings as 5w30 so it’s all pushing through your PVC system and into your intake. Welcome to the new Subaru, inspired by BMW Lease it, then get out! or buy yourself a really nice extended warranty that actually has good coverage. The best of Subaru is history unfortunately. They are built for first owners now. I loved these cars for a really long time. But I’m afraid we’ve broken up now.
I've got a 2013 Legacy with the TR580. I bought it used with 56K on the odo...now has 120K. I've drained and filled the CVT fluid twice since I've owned it. Once after I bought it, and once again just recently. I've also changed out the diff fluids. So far, so good on the longevity. I believe someone here already mentioned problems with the valve body on these. I drive it every day wondering when it will rear its head.
I had a friend in the 1990's that had a Subi Justy with a CVT, and he hated it. To quote Dangerfield, “I tell ya, with my car it’s always easy for me to find it. It’s always on a lift. I got the only car that has more miles on it vertically than horizontally.”
that's what that car my friend had i forgot he used to drive it off road which was hilarious you wondered if it would make it over a bump, it was so small.
As someone who had been working on Subarus the past 5 1/2 years I say this from experience. Subaru automatic transmissions aren’t bad at all. It’s usually the front differential that is the problem. I’m talking the 4EAT’d and 5EAT’s. The 10’-11’ Outback CVT did have torque converter failures (They wouldn’t unlock coming to a stop). And the other issue with all year CVT’s is a potential for the TQ lock up solenoid to go bad. Subaru doesn’t sell the solenoid by itself. They wasn’t you to replace the whole valve body. Just this last week I replaced a TQ and solenoid in an 11’ OB and a solenoid in a 12’ OB. Have another one to do next week. Other than that and potential front differential issues, CVT’s are pretty good. Especially Subarus because if the big chain. Others can use belts and that’s not good.
Rear end of the trans looks just like a 4-speed Subaru trans I tore down to replace the oil pump (seat your converter properly..) Odd that nothing seemed wrong inside. I drove a newer Maxima with a CVT and it was quite good actually, I think if you have good power, CVT is ok, small power (outback 4cyl) its not so ok. Those new 8-speed auto's are so good, drove a rental Santa Fe 2.5 with one, amazing how hard it shifted and nice close ratios. I enjoy the Trans teardowns, Miata trans repair next? I know you want to.
Very entertaining, though I imagine a Subie tech would look on this like an art restorer watching someone go at the Mona Lisa with a toothbrush and Comet. But we're here for laughs.
Hey, Van Doorne made these CVT things. He was a drive train genius. Invented the 'push-chain'. Good show. You had fun, and I enjoyed you having the fun.
My wife had a 2017 Nissan Rogue. The CVT transmission went out at 50,000 miles while she was heading to her audiologist appointment 120 miles from home. When I got to where the car died, 60 miles away, the transmission wouldn’t even go into gear. It was replaced under warranty. The technician that replaced it said the inside of the transmission was in pieces. Later, due to a class action law suit, the second transmission get an extended warranty. My wife told me with about 80k on the new transmission that it was starting to shift funny. Rather than us risking it going bad after the warranty expired, for 7200 bucks, not counting labor, I traded it in for her 2018 Ford Explorer. I only wish I could have seen the old transmission when they removed it.
This brings back bad memories! I worked for a major transmission remanufacturer and the Subaru line was one of my least favorite to work on. It's just a mess from start to finish! The requirements from Subaru for rebuilding these would make you think this was going on the space shuttle or something! And it IS a belt. Push belt to be specific.
When I bought my car the salesman immediately started pushing a cvt vehicle on me so I humored him and asked him to describe a cvt transmission. When he was done I said " that sounds like a f ing disaster"
My '90 Justy had the first CVT, then called an ECVT, in any modern vehicle. It failed at 108k km. The case hardening on one cone failed causing a groove to wear in the cone wall causing the chain to hang in the groove. I'd the extended warranty to 100k km. I claimed manufacturing defect so Subaru paid $2500 for the replacement tranny and I paid $1500 for the labour. Vehicle had 237k km when traded at 10 years. Loved it. Especially the electromagnetic clutch. Very cool.
The solenoid is what our 2013 Outback needed. ( I tried to tell the dealer that the solenoid on E Bay was only like 60 bucks, but they said no and changed them all for about $600. ) Also the high trans temp light came on going up hills and the fluid was changed and problem solved. ( Repairs needed just after the 100 K mile warranty LOL ) Got 150 K miles on it now. The car still drives great.
Would you say that would be the reason when the engine would rev up like it's under load but the transmission doesn't change or whatever and the car feel like it's not going no where
@@GabrielSBarbaraS lol… you tried to tell the dealer… Did you know that you could buy a kidney on the black market for less than what the hospital charges?
Amen! Again more exaggerated loose talk misinformation about these. Go to Mr. Subaru’s channel instead. The TR580 & 690 from Subaru (built in house and only by Subaru) are actually excellent transmissions, (especially 2017+). The problem has almost hardly been internally within them mechanically failing etc… the ACTUAL problem is/has been that Subaru of America* (only them) told clients that they WEREN’T supposed to service the fluid ever “sealed unit/lifetime” bs etc… and that ends up fouling the pressure solenoids in the valve body’s which then you need to (and should wisely) replace as a whole new valve body unit. Then countless people mistaken them for internal failure. There are ENDLESS examples of many Subaru folks getting 225k+ out of these trouble free as long as they’re properly cared for.. INCLUDING people towing regularly! I’m on a 2017 Crosstrek TR580 with 87k miles. Vehicle was in a front end wreck and got rebuilt title at 31k miles. Serviced the fluid twice so far, drives like new.
The tr690 is a great transmission. They have been working out the past problems with the 580. The new WRX has one. Great performance and fuel efficiency
Maintenance is key. Don’t listen to the owners manual about never changing the oil in one. Change the CVT oil every 30k and they will last a long time.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Yeah. You teach nothing . Blocking your channel . How about create something instead of destruction for profits.
However will I survive without your viewership?
💀
I don’t own a Subaru. Don’t have a CVT Transmission. But I definitely learn along the way. I love this channel.
KC - you need to get out of the WOKE gen and wake up to smell the coffee - its called "planned obsolescence" all manufactures are having issues right now - go cry me a river - dude. You learned what where why when and how. Eric does engines well. I just changed the "life long" CVT oil in my 2016 Subaru Forester XT White and she has 125k still shifts great I've taken from Los Gatos CA to Woodstock GA and back - 🎶 East bound and down 🎶
@@I_Do_Cars LOL
Hey, a bunch of questions I'm qualified to answer as a subaru tech.
First off, this 2014 OB's TR580 was the 2nd year of the existence of the 580. The powerflow and components inside of it are quite different from the TR690, which became the "big boy" transmission but was also the first model, which debuted in the 2010-12 legacy/outback. The primary issue the early TR690s would face is chain slip, which generally is caused by a dip of fluid pressure. Through years of iteration and improvements, these problems have largely been corrected as long as the vehicle load is kept on the lower end. (Ascent problems notwithstanding.) The common fail point in the TR580 by contrast is usually a valve body solenoid failure, either the torque converter lockup solenoid (which is basically always applied) or the transfer clutch solenoid (aka "awd" or "center diff"). In either case, the valve body is a serviceable component, with a new one in the ~$700 range MSRP. the 580 has also gone through a number of revisions and updates through the years and has landed at a fairly stable place nowadays.
@2:08 how many 4EAT/5EAT transmissions had problems? Less than these early CVTs, but definitely not zero either. It took a solid 5-6 years-worth of recalls and bulletins before the 4EAT landed in a stable place. The 5EAT was only used behind the higher-output engines (EZ30/36 in a tribeca, for example) and was pretty solid but occasionally would have 3-4 or 3-2 slip issues.
@2:20 the tailshaft cup is missing, looks super weird without it>
The transmission is designed to be serviced when it's stood up on its snout, would have had an easier time that way lol.
@4:14 yes, it was. That's the transfer clutch drum, aka the center diff. As the piston you're holding squishes, it sends power out to the rear driveshaft, which splines onto the end you pushed through.
@5:18 you don't need to take that nut off, as I assume you're about to discover. That is the pinion shaft, and will lead to the front differential.
@5:51 this is where you'd find the aforementioned valve body. It is accessible in the car relatively easily without having to move anything; there's just enough space in the transmission tunnel to sneak in there and remove this cover plate. I assume the valve body was removed so that it could be rebuilt.
@6:11 this cover is primarily just a chain that runs from the torque converter to the oil pump. This cover is a very common source of leaks on newer TR690s, and occasionally a leak point on TR580s. An indexing prybar is the ideal tool to remove this.
@7:42 thank you for bringing this up -- because a differential will always have some metal-on-metal wear and therefore metal in the fluid, I think one reason subaru CVTs are more robust than their jatco/nissan counterparts is because of this fluid separation. (In the nissan transmissions, the diff is lubricated by the trans fluid.) Also, I'll put this blurb here, but Subaru does not have a *required* interval for diff fluid service, only an "inspect and replace as necessary" every 30k, but in my experience it'll already look pretty gross at 30k (from break-in) and then be fine until 90/150/210/etc. from there on out. Subaru calls the CVT fluid a "lifetime" fluid, and I'm sure you have an opinion on that, but their criteria for it being failed is if it is no longer translucent. While the stuff coming out of this trans is quite dark, it does not appear to be murky, and so in Subaru's eyes would be considered "ok." (Most technicians would agree doing them on a 60k interval is fine for normal use. Subaru does say replacement at ~30k miles if you "tow regularly" -- and does not elaborate what that means.)
@8:49 this is a serviceable part but it's called a "strainer" not a filter, and it's more akin to the pickup screen in your engine's oil intake. The amount of metal on that magnet is average to less-than-average. That fluid view at 9:00 though, is not normal.
@10:35 early-00's and older subarus also used a double-roll-pin axle with stub shafts in the front. Company23 makes an *excellent* punch tool for servicing those.
@11:21 I have literally never seen or even heard of a leaking shift shaft seal on any subaru auto transmission. (They all use a very similar design.)
@12:16 and this is about as far as we're supposed to do teardowns at the dealer level. While the chains/sheaves/etc. parts *are* available in the parts catalog, subaru does not provide the special tools necessary to decompress the sheave and remove the chain set. However, all master techs do a full disassembly and reassembly of a CVT as part of the training program, so I suppose someday we might be doing rebuilds.
@13:06 subaru calls this the "manual valve" and it's connected to the shift selector you elegantly removed -- this hydraulically controls shifting through the valve body. Should note here everything from the selector lever in the car all the way to the valve body is all physically linked; no electronic shifter gizmos in any subaru (so far).
@13:30 this is the step where the sheave would be separated -- you'd need essentially a huge 2-jaw or 3-jaw puller on the big side to release the chain from the sheave. There's a really good youtube video from a Kennedy Transmissions shop in St Paul, MN doing a teardown of an early TR690 -- he shows the puller in use.
@13:48 that chain guide probably popped out during disassembly -- if it popped out during operation it would be all chewed up or broken -- but inspecting that chain guide was part of the WRK recall process for the 19-21 Ascent.
@16:30 this is the forward/reverse clutch drum and planetary set. In the TR580, when you pick R, everything after this set spins "backwards" -- chain and sheaves included -- and then when you select "D" all of that stuff needs to change direction. This means, if you own a TR580, ***do not shift from R to D while the car is still rolling.*** One of the major differences between this and the TR690 is that the D/R planetary set comes after the chain/sheaves.
@17:18 the smell comes from the air trapped in the bolt holes, it's like a stale, fishy, crabapple blossom-y kind of smell. You'll get it when pulling the engines apart too.
@18:00 very good, yes those rotating cups set the pre-load. They're also basically impossible to remove once corrosion sets in on the case, even with the correct special tools.
@20:53 those diff bearings don't look tooooo bad. We've had more than a few cases where a "quick oil change* place will try to do a front diff fluid service, drain it, and then use the wrong port to try to "fill" it. They dump 1.4 qt of gear oil into the trans and leave the f diff empty, which means they get to buy a new trans for the customer.
@22:45 looks like we're taking apart the transfer clutch. There is a current TSB for the Ascent for this clutch having some pretty bad wear in the drum and causing a binding, which leads to wheel chatter around turns. Haven't seen that failure in any other CVT though. It *was* a somewhat-common problem in early 4EAT transmissions. You can see just a little bit of wear at 23:01 on the sides of the drum.
@25:40 never thought to take apart a chain that way, lol, interesting technique. Hoping you'll show us the faces of the sheaves here, as if this was experiencing "chain slip" you'd see some scoring on the faces of the sheaves. @22:67 yeah i'm not seeing anything obvious in there.
Not really sure what failed in this one that necessitated replacement tbh. Could have been from bearing noise or could be misdiagnosis.
Anyway, I'm a very regular contributor at r/subaru, if you or anyone else has any questions feel free to post up :)
Having owned 5 subi's.. all were manuals .. Subaru and others should have sued for producing a product that was designed to fail just to meet an EPA mandated. Working in logistics for 30 years, if CVT's were that awsome every unit in the operation would have used them. The most efficient and long lasting method of power transfer is gears. From forklifts to yard mules and container loaders.
Incredible writeup. I should pop over to r/Subaru to see your recommendations for buying a used CVT-Subaru. The 6MT hasn't been the smoothest in my '18 Forester and I've had to stiffen up the transmission crossmember bushings using a 'positive shift kit'. I went with a boomba racing shift plate but should've stuck with Kartboy or Perrin and/or just ordered the boomba racing short throw shifter.
Is the transmission fluid on the 6MT the same as it is for the front drive axle, or?
Really appreciate this input and write up, was cool to follow along with the timestamps on the tear down
Great write up!
This comment should be pinned by Eric. Hope he _really_ reads _all_ the comments 😅
Our CVT in our 2021 Ascent went out at 18K miles. Took two months to get a new one. Traded it.
From Subaru's perspective, this is a great transmission. It lasted just past the warranty, which means the engineers got it just right. 😛
We don't know how the car was driven, and if the transmission fluid was changed out often enough. You gotta change that oil every 30 grand. I have experience with jatco cvt's. You can't run and gun with a cvt, you gotta take it easy.
Me personally, I change CVT oil every 20k miles....you can't trust the manufacturer recommendations. It also helps if the CVT has a starting gear... starting from a dead stop is hard on them.
So true, they are in business to sell cars and parts, not pay to have repairs done.
It's easy to ascribe this sort of mentality to literally any company, but in my experience, that has never been Subaru's design and engineering ethos. They know that people buy to own and keep the cars a very long time. Subaru has made a lot of mistakes, but I genuinely do not think this is intentional. The Subaru CVT is generally quite reliable with regular fluid changes and aside from the first few years having solenoid pack issues. Also very easy cars to work on, contrary to what internet memes would tell you, and that traces back to engineering that considers the owner as well.
The problem with planned obsolescence, is the bad feelings you generate in your customer base. You want people to keep buying new cars, and every person you piss off because their car cratered, can cost you multiple sales. I owned a 2002 Chevy Malibu that started mixing oil and coolant at around 28,000 miles. It did it outside of the age warranty, when the value of the car was about the same as the cost to fix it. I won't buy a Chevrolet again.
I bought my Mazda 6 because it had a normal automatic transmission. Was originally looking at a Nissan but they all had cvt's. The real transmission sold me. Great car.
same here
Same, seriously.
Same here. Had a 2014 Crosstrek, dumped it for a Toyota.
"I thought they smelled bad on the outside" - Han Solo
I've got a 1999 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon with the original 4EAT automatic transmission currently a 320,000 miles. No issues, shifts perfectly and i take the car off-roading all the time.
I have a 98 but those aren’t cut transmissions 😋
those 4 speed automatics were the best, better than the standard shift, and way better than the new CVT's
The most interesting part is the fluid that gives the chain the “traction” on the smooth variators (pulleys as you called them) that makes it able to drive and be driven.
This one gives your "I'm just a guy who zips bolts out till the parts fall off" a whole new meaning. All kinds of parts and pieces falling off of it.
Knowing the ins and outs of a car engine is one thing, but I am in awe of anyone who can work on automatic transmissions. There are SO many little parts, and each one is different in its own way. And don't forget the engineers who come up with these ideas and successfully build them.
There are people (I'm one of them but not at super high level) that are able to tear apart, clean and reassemble a minute repeater tourbillon mechanical wristwatch composed by hundreds (like 500/600) minuscule parts, I don't see any problem with an automatic transmission :) Much simplier. The difference is done by experience: in this case all looks fine but there's a reason if this was replaced, and see the reason is the key :)
@@AlessandroGenTLe The thing is, when you're working on the watch, at least you don't have to haul it out of a car and there's not someone that doesn't know what time it is while you're fixing it :)
It’s really not that difficult. You dive into the diagrams, schematics and written tasks and become very familiar and comfortable that it becomes second nature.
Precision Transmission Channel. That old guy has a lot of knowledge about every build
Honestly at any decent tech school they have you tear down and rebuild an auto trans. Some people even specialize in it.
But this shit is warp science. And also stupid IMO.
My grannys crosstrek went thru 2 of these in 150k miles. The second one failed. She has a 21 corolla now. Huge improvement
The Toyotas are good for 240k miles.
'21 Corolla also has a CVT unless she bought one with a manual trans.
If she didn't drive like the little old lady from Pasadena they would last. /that corolla is a piece of doo doo it'self!
@@sotm6078Subaru is junk
@@LoveMyZJthey have a 2 apwwd auto with a cvt overdrive. Cvt are great for a narrow band. Toyota also does not lie and say to never change the fluid like SOA. Subaru says only cars in the eu and Canada need to change the fluid and Japan under extreme conditions. The extreme conditions are things like over 50mph and outside 40-90f.
Love the transmission teardowns. I like seeing how they work.
Bought my teenage daughter a one owner 03 Outback as a first car back in 2017. It was an H6 model Limited with just over 200k on the odometer. Car was mint outside of the mileage. After about a year and a half the auto transmission quit. Bought a used transmission for $500 from a Japanese salvage yard and we swapped it ourselves. About a year later the 2nd transmission started acting up. This time it was intermittent. Sometimes you'd start the car and put it in gear and nothing would happen, other times it would work fine. I figured it was something electrical. Called the local Subaru dealer for service but all they would do is verify the transmission had issues and if it did, they would just replace the entire transmission. Didn't matter if it was a single inexpensive part. Sold the car for parts after that.
That's strange because the 4EAT in the 03 is pretty much bulletproof. If maintained, it generally won't start acting up until 250K or so.
What do you expect thats an old car its gonna have issues with any old car.
My son bought a new Chevy Spark years ago which had a CVT. He hated it, had it at the dealer numerous times because the transmission didn't seem right. After 18 months and 15,000 or so miles he traded it in for another new Chevy spark with a 5 speed on the floor. Loves it and has had it for 4 years now with no issues.
They’ll never seem right. CVT trannys have a massive delay with merging and passing. They’re jerky and sap any enjoyment what so ever out of driving.
Those arent the same as subaru cvts mine is 2012 no problems at all not sure why people are having problems with theres?
I have a four-speed automatic 09 Subaru Forester got 176,000 miles on it. Transmission still doing pretty good. I don’t like any vehicles with the CVT I’ll take a manual or automatic any day.
I've overhauled AT's from 1980 down, including 5 to 16 speed 18 wheeler trans, but I'm glad I never had to do one of these, looks more like a puzzle. Good luck Eric !! 😮
I used to love the CVTs in the 2002-2005 Saturn Vue. I made SO much money off of those. In AWD models the belt would explode every 20-40k miles, FWD would last about 60k. CVTs are a great idea in theory, but they just can’t handle the torque. Trying to drive a vehicle solely on metal friction just doesn’t work. The amount of fluid pressure they need is crazy and the drums are so heavy.
The sulfur based EP additives start out smelling bad, then get worse when they form complex sulfur compounds as they are 'activated' by the heat of metal-to-metal contact. The complex compounds are what keeps the contacting metal parts from sticking to each other then tearing apart. Complex sulfur compounds have various smells, all unpleasant.
Bottom line: yes, resisting extreme pressure causes more stink.
That explains why Diff oil is the worst out of all the odoriferous oils.
1djbecker, good post. useful info to know. rotten egg gas, fart gas, thioles, garlic, the odours added to natural gas for safety reasons, skunk smells, they are all sulfur smells.
_"Complex sulfur compounds have various smells, all unpleasant"_ I beg to disagree, as garlic, green onion (and regular one), leek and such all have their right (if not righteous) place in cuisines all over the world - be it Chinese, Mexican, Indian or Mediterranean one - and oh, speaking of Indian cuisine - "stinking resin", in Latin "asa foetida", aka "asafetida" (or "hing" in Hindi) - not to mention truffles...
And then "one month old tuna" would NOT smell of sulphur compounds, but of all sort of primary organic amines (or di- and tri-amines) - as all rotting bodies do. Putrescine (butane-1,4-diamine) and cadaverine (pentane-1,5-diamine) are the best know examples. Also, that "fish-like" smell many men find strangely attractive ("strangely", heh heh...) is amine-based, and oh, while at it (pun not intended) - skatole, _"the primary contributor to faecal odour"_ (which, funnily enough _"in low concentrations, it has a flowery smell and is found in several flowers and essential oils, including those of orange blossoms and jasmine; it has also been identified in certain cannabis varieties"_ ), so this skatole is also an organic amine (secondary one).
...but I digress here ;-)
@@MrKotBonifacy Not everyone finds them pleasant, but I'll stand corrected with the exclusive "all".
@@1djbecker : )
I have a 2016 highlander hybrid, with CVT and I love it, and yeah you got it 340K miles, I tow my boat all over with it and its been fantastic, now Im worried of getting another CVT vehicle, I feel lucky to have gotten this many miles
Hybrid cvts are very different from the gas only cvts.
I wear my safety glasses 🥽 every time I view your videos.
Not gonna lie...I squint! :)
😂
Forklift attacks DO happen.
bro no body on here is going tell you how great CVTs are😅😅
@@Dwizzlejay Mine works well in my 2015 Lexus RX450h AWD……for now.😳
The clutch pack inside the rear housing is for the rear output. There is a solenoid valve that supplies fluid, and should give about 10% engagement at all times, keeping some fluid running through there. When a speed mismatch is detected, the computer opens that valve, engaging the rear output solidly. On the old 4EAT cars, it had power supplies constantly, and was grounded by the computer iirc. You could add a wire and switch to ground to manually engage the rear output. Pulling the AWD fuse under the hood would remove the power, so it wouldn't try engaging when you had a tire mismatch or something.
This one looks like someone screwed with the carrier adjusters, maybe they were chasing a noise, but probably shouldn't have been in there.
Believe me, as a Subaru Master Tech, those chains do sometimes come apart. No drive or reverse coupled with an Intermediate Shaft Speed Sensor No Signal is a strong sign. Lately I’ve been seeing valve bodies fail and cause a similar situation, but no DTCs, the changeover solenoid or fluid circuit bleeds off pressure.
The rate of failure on these transmissions is relatively low, we just see more because Subaru is pumping cars out faster and faster every year
The electronically controlled automotive cvt is a fascinating thing, and on paper a great idea. When under low throttle demand, the engine can run exactly where it's most efficient, and when you out your foot down it can hold engine rpm at it's power peak, best of both worlds. Unfortunately, they don't seem to work in reality as well as they do on paper. They seem to last ok in the very small cars (Nissan versa for example) but in the bigger things not so much. I believe it's just as you scale up for a larger vehicle (even just midsized car) the friction required to make it work goes up exponentially, hence greater failures.
I have a 2015 Honda CRV with the CVT. So far it’s been just fine. There are aspects of the driving experience I like, and some I’m less thrilled by. Recognizing that the CVT is much cheaper to manufacture than a traditional automatic, I expect to see more of these in the coming years as car manufacturers seek to reduce component costs.
We’ve owned 9 Subarus. Also Toyota, Honda, Mazda. All have been very reliable. Four of our Subarus have/had Cvt’s. Never one problem, the highest mileage is currently at 134k. The key I learned from Mr. Subaru & Scotty Kilmer is, I have the dealer change the CVT fluid every 40k miles. It gets hot & dirty. Just like oil or transmission fluid.
Also, the dirtier or older the fluid, the more heat in the CVT. These transmissions do not like to be overheated - especially the solenoids!!!
Yes true but unlike a geared transmission even a Subaru CVT really needs to have the fluid changed. CVTs build up alot of heat and fluid breaks down quickly.
@ yes.
Someone's been driving this around with mismatched tire sizes or a low tire. The clutch pack on the rear section of the transmission is for transferring torque to the rear wheels.
Why is it every time I get ready to watch some other video there's a I DO Car's video that pop's up and I have no choice but to click on it. I mean I know I have a choice but I prefer to watch you tear down carnage try to salvage part's. Plus the bad joke's Always make me smile since might be getting older but I'm still as mature as a 14 yr old XD. Take care! hope you have a fantastic rest of your week.
I have a Honda Civic I just bought, with a CVT, and I like it more than I thought I would. The Honda CVT is smooth and responsive, plus it doesn't do those fake shifts. It also gets very good gas mileage around town (like 31). I am hoping it doesn't blow up soon like this Subaru one did. I think the key to these transmissions is to change the fluid every 30 to 50k. I just changed mine, and hopefully it will keep going to at least 250k.
I have a civic as well…my cvt has 170k miles on it.. I do the 30k service every time… it’s a 2016… it’s still going, but I’m starting to feel like it’s going out because I believe the belt is stretched out and feels like a sling shot when I take off from a stop.. plus there’s a slight whiny sound…many mechanics say most Honda cvts go 150k consistently when maintained.. after that, most fail @ 170k or so… Subaru are less reliable as well as Nissan, Kia, Hyundai… Toyota has the best … they last about 250k .. I knew an Uber driver that had a Toyota Corolla that had a cvt and it finally took a dump @ 325k… that was a 2015 .. they are not durable like the conventional transmissions… according to transmission shops… for those who don’t change the fluid, most go out under a 100k or way less then… this was told to me by a veteran transmission mechanic… he makes a fortune off the Nissans because these units get beat on …
Having watched "Precision Transmission" for a long time, and seeing him tear down a transmission in under 5 minutes -yes- this was truly entertaining. Not that I could have done any better.
Richard and Teresa educational transmission is their new page
I'm just glad I'm not the only one who has watched them.
@@JustinMonast and they're still posting fire videos showing off Richard being a genius to this very day, dude could probably rebuild a 4Lslippy in his sleep and have it fully built and ready to go by the time he wakes up the next morning.
I like that channel too. Richard has rebuilt hundreds, if not thousands of 4L60e transmissions. Among others of course, but his bread and butter seems to be the 4L60e.
Have 4 Subaru. One has 132K miles, other 92K, 60K and 24K. Those transmissions need service periodically even if the manual says different. You notice a big difference after they are serviced
The quick answer is no, they should not all fail. The Subaru CVT offerings are generally very reliable except for the early years years and two specific transmission. Generally 2012-2017 is the trouble range, but not all cars. Most of them actually have issues with the solenoid pack rather than the transmission itself, though dealers usually just do a full replacement, which is far more expensive and not actually necessary. MrSubaru has covered these issue very well. I have a friend with a 2014 Crosstrek that the dealer said needed a new CVT. I asked him the codes and symptoms and told him to deny the service and have them replace the solenoid pack and replace the fluid instead. They did so and the car has been fine for many years now. Saved them over $4,000 IIRC. For the mechanically inclined, it's actually a relatively easy job. The early Ascent CVT also had its own issues which Subaru has admitted to, so people should be wary of that. There is an extended warranty and some kind of settlement. I believe the current iteration is improved. The other issue is the fluid service interval recommended, which Subaru, like many companies, definitely screwed up on. I believe they introduced it as a lifetime fluid, which was actually meant to be 100-120K miles, but owners should actually change the fluid every 40-60K miles ideally. I believe newer cars recommend a more regular interval rather than calling it lifetime, but I haven't actually checked the current recommendations. For the early CVT, a solenoid pack change and regular fluid service should keep them going for a very long time. For anything from the last 8 years or so, just a regular fluid service and it should be good to go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big CVT fan either and the old Subaru automatic was far more bulletproof and worry free. It's just also true that Subaru has had one of the better overall CVT records in the industry, sad as that may be.
I appreciate you of all people laying it out like that. Too many people think "CVT = BAD" When, like you say, the dealers exacerbate the belief by not directly solving the problem, just replacing it.
My parents have a '12 Outback they've owned since new and only recently at ~220,000km had the solenoid pack replaced, despite both the local dealer and an independent shop telling them "treat it like a beater, run it into the ground" which is a sin, because the car is actually quite nice. That generation of Legacy/Outback are fantastic automobiles.
Thank you for this comment my dad has a 2010 first year production of the tr690 and it needed a torque converter lockup solenoid at 180k miles. ( he put a whole new valve body on himself because it was lower risk and Subaru doesn’t sell only solenoids I find that insane) new fluid and it runs like new now. I have a 2011 with the same transmission runs just fine no issues and no service history 😂/. I’m not saying they are perfect they should have spaced a service interval from the get go they have two filters one is not serviceable without disassembly and that is a mistake and they should sell hard parts for them. People are finding ways to keep them going but Subaru has indeed treated it like a throw away and it’s a damn shame. It’s a weird transmission but it’s just a family car not a race car And it works just fine.
Hi i recently i bought a 2015 Subaru 3.6r outback with 125 k miles . I think it has rhe tr690 cvt. Can this motor and cvt reach 250k miles if i do drain and fill on cvt evey 30k miles or less? Thanks for your response
@@johnnn.darrelll2746 probably . Just make sure the fluid is Subaru “high torque “ fluid Or equivalent
@@peterad1529 jf i do this from 125k miles , i should get to 250k miles no problem? And is it the subaru orange coloree cvt fluid? Is subaru cvt more reliable than nissan?
I actually enjoy different teardowns. This was very informative and the commentary kept it fun!
How convenient it died immediately after the extended warranty ran out. We bought my wife's '14 Outback from a Subaru tech who had thankfully just replaced the transmission under warranty before putting it up for sale. I've been doing fluid changes on it every 15k miles since we got it and fingers crossed it's still solid 40k miles later.
Are the fluid changes hard to do? I have one at 30k and I am wondering what preventative I can do for these.
Why would you even buy such a piece of junk in the first place though?
@@jermsman18 Not terrible. The pan has a drain plug. I just do a spill and fill. It doesn't get all of it but it drains enough to make it worth your while.
@@HenrySomeone Because everything else about the car has been rock solid. They're extremely stable and extremely safe. Both interested me greatly considering she's hauling my son around in it all the time. If you've ever driven a Subaru in nasty weather you would quickly understand the appeal to them. Subarus get a really bad reputation because the majority of their owners don't properly maintain them. I've been daily driving my 500whp WRX for 5 years and have put 40k carefree miles on it. If you take care of them they will last as long as you want. They're also some of the easiest cars I've ever worked on. If at some point down the road I have to spend $500~ to replace a transmission that I can swap myself in a few hours I think that's a pretty fair trade for all the benefits I get from the car. Besides, can you even name one car that people haven't discovered some sort of defect with over time?
Subarus are ok, at best. If I’m looking to feel secure in bad weather I can assure you it’s not in a Subaru…it will be a Land Cruiser everyday and twice on Sunday.
I am one of those people. We have 291,434 miles on our 2014 Forester. We have NEVER had a fluid change or valve body change. I want to do both soon though. Maybe we are just some of the fortunate ones.
One thing about the CVT, the fluid is designed to provide friction, not remove it. It also must cool the unit. It is imperative that to make them last, the fluid must be exchanged with the same type about every 30k miles.
Friction is heat. The fluid is designed to create heat AND remove it?
Friction doesn't generate heat if the two mating surfaces don't move relative to one another. That's how a manual transmission clutch works -- it generates no heat when you're in gear. The CVT generates perhaps a little heat as the belt moves up and down the sheaves, but not much if there's no slippage. AWD clutches between front and rear hardly ever slip much, either. The tires accommodate most slippage. You're confusing moving friction, such as cranks and cams in bearings, and piston rings sliding in cylinders, all of which generate heat from rubbing, with static friction where no heat is generated due to no relative motion between surfaces.
In a CVT, the biggest power loss is the pump, which runs conatantly to press the two sets of sheaves together - hard - that prevents the push chain from slipping.
I don't see mucg wrong with this CVT myself. It's very well made and machined. No cheapjack parts anywhere. The front diff seems iffy, and that's not part of the CVY at all. The missing control module -- now what was wrong with that? One wonders.
In other words, after this teardown Eric has no clue what caused it to be condemned, and neither does anyone else here.
All people have is opinions, so who cares what they think? I don't, when people opine nonsense out of their left ear based on nothing whatsoever, especially knowledge.
And no, I don't own a Subaru -- I did once, and the five speed Jatco automatic ate itself. About the same time the rear subframe rusted apart.
Based on the zero knowledge the Subru dealer mechanics had about the 5-speed, I'd bet they know zero about the CVT. So what were the symptoms of failure here?
Nobody knows. But they have solid totally uninformed opinions.
Meh. I learned nothing whatsoever from this teardown.
@@BillMalcolm-tn3kq did you saw the fluid color? Usually it is red, not brown. Weird.
Thats quit the word salad you typed out to just say you dont know shit about CVT. @@BillMalcolm-tn3kq
@@SvcGlobal this fluid starts life as green. Subaru CVT-II
2018 legacy. Absolutely loved, loved that car. My buddy had one (2015) prompting me to get one. His cvt crapped out at 87k out of basic warranty. Mine started making whining noise (Subaru shop said tranny going out) at 104k even though serviced transmission per schedule. He junked his as it was $8,200 to get a factory rebuild and he didn't have the time to search and coordinate shipping a used one and who knows the condition of the used one from a junkyard. I dumped mine on Carvana. I am now a die-hard Toyota fan for life.... a real transmission that can handle it and serviceable. I'm happy for those of you that were fortunate enough to have yours last. I should have known when the Subaru salesman and Finance Manager told me to buy an extended warranty because of known transmission issues but I just thought they were upselling me on an unnecessary warranty. Disappointing. Edit.... Mine was a v6 supposedly heavier duty CVT
they extended the warranty on CVts to 100,000 miles Trust me i been through 3 of them all under warranty
i own a 2018 limited legacy 4 cylinder myself. thanks for your post, i changed the CVT fluid at 40000 miles and even then it started skipping gears at 60000 miles. changed it again at 60 k and it already turned dark at 80k though not skipping gears this time. forewarned is forearmed. i am going to get rid of it before it hits 100k miles and ido have the Subaru gold plus extended warranty which has incidentally already paid for itself. i too live the car when it runs smoothly, but there is a huge difference in reliability between the legacy (assembled in indiana) vs the Crosstrek i also own (assembled in gunma, Japan). ah well, time for a hybrid with E-CVT or EV
i also wanted to add that while Subaru extended the CVT warranty to 100k miles, its not particularly reassuring especially after that. Clearest indicator that one needs to get rid of the car before 100 k miles
@@z1az285 yes have 09 assembled in Indiana and seems to be falling apart after 100k miles. Currently at 132k miles.
@@leslielucci3182 I hope your car holds up for as long as possible. i owned a VW GLX V6 passat wagon before this with automatic transmission and while not the most reliable of cars, the transmission lasted 250000 miles before failing ( 2 fluid topoff as per manual at 80k and 160k, not even replacement). pros and cons i suppose
I think of belt-and-pulley style CVT's like this: Lets say I had a shaft that I wanted to rotate. Instead of putting some splines on that shaft and using a gear to turn it, I'm going to stick a ball bearing on the shaft. Then I am going to squeeze that bearing so hard that the bearing locks up and I can turn the shaft by spinning the outer bearing race. It isn't a perfect example, but it gives you an idea of what this system is trying to do. It is squeezing these metal pins in the belt really hard in one direction, and then pushing on those same pins in another direction to actually transfer power from the engine to the wheels. That is a whole lot of stress on those pins from multiple directions at the same time.
We have the advanced materials to make belt-and-pulley systems work, but they are always going to be putting a lot of stress on their core components to make the squeeze-so-hard-it-doesn't-slip thing work compared to a normal automatic or a manual.
There's some clever molecular mechanics going on in the oils that these transmissions use as well. Under extreme pressure the molecules form a rigid microfilm that is essentially a solid connection between the two metal parts, but without actual metal contact.
The only good CVT is the "hybrid synergy drive" because it isn't a CVT at all, it's a single planetary gearset with a motor on the planetary carrier so that the speed and direction of the motor adjusts the ratio of the engine to the wheels. It irritates me how such a cool concept creates such a dull driving experience, but I will high five any Toyota engineer who worked on it. And PSA: when considering a Toyota Hybrid, none of the "CVT problems" will affect you. It doesn't even have a torque converter.
@@thirdpedalnirvana Believe it or not, I had a whole paragraph typed up about Toyota's planetary gear based eCVT and why it was better, but I ended up cutting it out! Suffice it to say, I agree with you. It is a much better system than a pusher belt.
@@sadlerbw9 idk why mechanical automotive cvts are even a thing when eCVTs exist. CVTs are better for fuel economy but hybrids with an eCVT are even better than CVTs without the reliability problems. Trucks, V6 cars, crossovers, etc. should all have traditional automatics or manuals, with an option for a hybrid system in some cases. Also, while mild hybrid systems can offer increased fuel economy, the small increase versus how expensive the starter-alternator-motors are to replace when they inevitably fail just isn't worth it. True hybrids and plug-in hybrids are just better, full stop.
The comical thing is that Toyota uses a regular CVT in the modern Corolla. Theirs are a bit more robust as they have a crawler/launch gear to reduce strain on the chain when taking off from a stop, but they still aren't as good as a hybrid eCVT as far as efficiency and potential power output if Toyota would for the love of god make their eCVT equipped hybrids more responsive. Shoulda gone with a 5 or 6 speed auto for the non-hybrid non-GR Corolla imho, but at least the Corolla is far more appropriately sized for a regular CVT than a Nissan Maxima.
@crisburn no difference When a transmission design is absolute shit
Worked at a Jeep dealer about a decade ago, can confirm, CVTs can go to the fieriest pit of hell. Had a man buy lifetime powertrain warranty, he drives A LOT. How much? He had a 2012 Jeep Compass with the good ol' 2.4 mated to the CVT. 500,000 miles in 5 years. We replaced 6 transmissions, the damn oil pan wasn't even seeping. I'd say he got his money's worth.
I bought the extended warranty and service plan too because everything has a cvt now
To be honest, the Jeep compass was a total piece of crap from bumper-to-bumper.
@@RipliWitani Not mazda, bmw, audi and some toyotas.
The only non-CVT transmission Subaru has had any issues with over the last 30 years is the 5MT that eventually ended up on the WRX. It was originally designed to mate up to a 70hp engine, and didn't start having issues until the WRX started approaching 250hp. The 6-speed manual they designed for the STI was mated to a 300hp engine, but easily handles up to 600hp. They obviously lowered their standards considerably for the CVT.
Well 70hp is quite a stretch. The Subaru 5 speed design used in the early USDM WRX circa 2002 was launched with the Legacy circa 1989. That came with the EJ22 along with the EJ18 and numerous other variants, but also the EJ20 turbo in Japan. Those engines made anywhere from 110hp to 217 or so. It was designed to handle 200 horsepower or more quite easily, but 227 and a lot of extra weight was pushing it. Add some mods or sticky tires and it got too spicy. By changing gear geometry and adding some strength to the case, they pretty much mitigated the issues and kept using that trans design for... many years.
@@802Garage The original 5MT arrived with the AWD models of the Subaru Leone in the early 70s. They did revamp it a bit for the 1985 model year, but that was still the Leone.
@@sproutpits Just did a bunch of research and yeah it def appears the design is shared with the 1985+ Leone/Loyale. Always more to learn. I thought only the bell housing pattern and some other design aspects were shared. There are a lot of changes internally and some externally though, especially the further you get along. I mean they used the same transmission in the early WRX and really there weren't any reliability issues even in the turbo Legacy. Problems started to pop up with the 2002 WRX which was a fair bit heavier, plus people started pumping up the power. At that point you started to see split cases or stripped second gear. They pretty much fixed those issues with a couple years of revisions. I getcha though.
No, the original four speed Subaru manual came out about 1973. By screwing around with bits here and there, hanging another gear outside rhe box but inside the space devoted to the AWD gubbins, they eventually managed to squeeze 6 speeds into the box. That is the crap notchy WRX box the WRX has today. The STI 6 speed was bespoke and rugged. A different beast entirely.
Now the 5-speed auto that went into Legacu GTs and H-6 equipped Subarus was no star at all. I and many others had problems with that so-so piece.
@@802Garage Ya, it's an interesting story. I'm invested in it because I've owned a 2002 WRX since it was new and went through the process of adding power until I had to swap to a 6-speed. I never did break the 5-speed, but I was more careful with it than I am with the 6-speed.
Completely overwhelmed by all the specialty tools and technical knowledge
We own a 2015 Forester. A solenoid on the valve body went bad 200 miles shy of the extended 100,000 miles coverage and was covered by that campaign.
To me, there’s a place for CVT. The biggest criticism I have is that transmissions are now advertised as “sealed” units. We have drain-and-filled the transmission fluid every 30k miles; a completely DIY job.
They are great for scooters!
"Sealed" just means no dip stick.
Good call on the fluid interval, seems to be the key to longevity on these cvts
Nobody likes a CVT. They literally suck.
Same fluid interval on my 2012 Altima. Now at 170,000 and no sign of quitting.
Tear down and failure analysis is EVERYTHING! THIS is where you learn and improve, and for me as a kid into way past 60 y/o - as a matter of fact, even now, at 82, it helps keep everything I own, everything I touch and work on-running without being able to buy new ones, or worse yet, take it to a “dealer” to have them do their usually wrong analysis and start throwing parts at the problem. My kid brother’s bike brake locked up going 180 mph downhill through avocado trees on a hill? Tear it apart, find out why it broke, use whatever few things I had (mostly pliers and a two screwdrivers), plus whatever stuff my mom and dad had that I was not supposed to touch, to fix it so the next ride downhill I had some way to stop besides laying it down and sliding 30 feet on dirt and rocks. I have even fixed a Seiko electronic where a tiny, almost invisible, wire came loose from a tiny circuit board, and it lasted another dozen years, with every jeweler who replaced the battery said I should toss it. KEEP UP THE TEARDOWNS, PLEASE!!
These videos are the best, love seeing strange things like CVTs!
When the Car Care Nut says “that’s okay” and you say “it’s fine,” in both cases the real meaning is that it’s probably bad 😢.
Fine for business.
The engineering, design, and know how that goes into these things boggles my mind.
Engineered to fail
@@1marcelfilms marketing fault....us engineers don't believe the BS unless we get dumbed down in Sales.
A mechanic at my Ford dealer told me the CVT they briefly sold in the Taurus/500 had to be serviced by 50k miles or it was practically guaranteed to die at 60k miles. The dealership couldn't source reman units, so customer cars sat on the lot for a month or more waiting for their CVTs to get rebuilt.
That's why I am sad manual transmissions are mostly gone. I love the simplicity and durability of manual transmissions.
Got a Crosstrek manual -- would never think of trusting the CVT.
Man I just learn so much watching you tear apart this transmission, thank you, there was a lot of part that I did not how to remove like the central case for example, thank you Keep up the good job 👍
I’ve watched about 10 of your videos and am amazed by the amount of engineering, parts designs, and WHO THE HELL makes all these parts! 😂
In comparison to the junk Jatco CVT, the design of this one is light years ahead. That's the beefiest chain I've seen so far. CVTs suffer from high torque demands when accellerating from a stop which stresses the steel belt and the splines the pulleys ride in on the shafts, leading to premature belt failure. Toyota came up with a design that uses a standard gear for first then transitions to the CVT section once inertia reduced. Great design. But I'm really impressed with the stout design of this one. Thanks for the video!
The coolest thing about CVT is that the reverse gear can go just as fast as forward. At least, I'm kinda sure they engineered some dohikey so you can't, but that's extra effort.
DAF made a car with CVT, in the 60s in Holland, and crazy people raced them in reverse!
Up until the last rubber belt Volvo in 1991 they would shift up in reverse.
And one of the formula1 cars in the 90s I think built their own cvt with like 1000 horsepower that won the championship and their cvt was banned because they said it was like cheating. They used only the best high quality parts in that cvt transmission. So if the manufacturers actually used good quality parts cvt would be the best actually but because they use shitty parts cvt goes bad and because of the false info in the manual booklet "lifetime" fluid.
Cool, thanks for sharing the tear down. I drive a Forester XT with the CVT in it and I like the way it drives. This transmission probably would have been fine had the owner changed the fluid. Subaru saying these things are sealed, not requiring service was the dumbest thing ever. Mr. Subaru did a great video on it.. Of the CVT's on the market, Subaru's are among the better ones.. It just needs some basic maintenance! The fluid isn't cheap, but it's a lot cheaper than replacing the transmission!
My wife and I were looking to buy a newer used car, and we test drove a 2018 Forester with like 30k miles on it. Aside from the cheap feel and the wind noise on the freeway, and the dodgy handling, I noticed that the transmission was shifting "oddly". After a bit of research, I discovered that all automatic Subarus since 2009 (IIRC) are CVTs with fake shifts built into the transmission programming! No wonder it felt odd! Well, needless to say, we decided to buy something else, namely a 2018 Buick Regal TourX wagon! What a neat and quite rare car, 2018, 19 and 20 only, and they are actually Opel Insignias imported from Germany by GM. 2.0 EcoTec turbo with 250HP, 8 speed Aisin auto trans, and AWD! It's a beautiful wagon, and nobody knows what it is! We get people who think it's a BMW or Mercedes, Audi, etc. We love it! Let me know if you ever see one of these in your travels, Eric! Take care, man, and stay cool!
Rench Funny you talked about wind noise I just bought a 24 crosstrck and to me and I have owned a ton of cars in my 68 years it sounds like any other car I have owned.
@allangurr Is there more wind noise than you would expect? If not, I'm sure the aerodynamics and probably better sound insulation are at play. That Forester just felt "tinny", like when the doors closed there wasn't a nice solid "thunk", ya know?
@@renchjeep Maybe it is the model that I bought the doors sound beefy I really cant say other then it just sounds like any other car I have owned. Your not the first person that has mentioned the car being noise I again dont agree
@@dog_guy-m6b Gotcha. With the Forester being a more boxy and probably cheaper model, that might explain the wind noise I heard and the lack of wind noise in your 24 Crosstrek.
After watching your video on this Subaru CVT, I can understand why many recommend scraping rather than trying to rebuild. I guess the other option is buying a new transmission or vehicle!
Ivan at Pine Hollow Diagnostics did a tear down of a CVT for his wife's Murano several yrs ago. That 1 had some carnage.
It sure did. Was totally grenaded
@@mikefoehr235 And, I think like this one, it had nothing to do with the fact it was a CVT but rather how it was designed and built. I think that's the real problem with them: automatics had 50 years of development and CVTs had under 20. And are just a stepping stone to the mechatronic 6+ gear manuals you see now.
@@paulmoir4452 I will never own anything with a cvt
Thanks for the awesome subaru cvt teardown. The honda cvt teardown was awesome too. Its really interesting to see the internals. My honda cvt belt broke at 336,000 miles when i punched the gas pedal from a dead stop when the red light turned green. That was the only time i did that with this car. So i swapped that cvt with a used salvaged cvt and my honda is up to 418,000 miles now and still going. Id like to see you teardown a toyota cvt next.
I have no knowledge of mechanics but watching this dude taking this apart specially not knowing what is going on was so satisfying...LOVED IT
Pry Bar (Blue) is #1 favourite!
I wonder how long to put this CVT back together.
For a Subaru and it’s made for a AWD vehicle. This design actually looks simpler than the Nissan unit that I seen awhile back on Pine Hollow Auto.
Saw at least 3 or 4 of these get replaced a week at the dealership but ive never seen inside one. Pretty awesome to see
As a Subaru tech I can say 95% of CVT’s won’t have an issue as long as you have them serviced. However the biggest killer of CVT transmissions is incorrect service. Shops who don’t know Subarus end up draining the front differential or cvt instead of the engine oil. Just this week I’ve had 2 cars, a 15 forester and 19 outback with 4 neutrals because a shop incorrectly serviced the vehicle
I'm an independent and I've dealt with your exact same situation with Subarus twice and also a few times with 2016+ Audi's quattro transmissions as they have 3 different fluids in the same unit. I remember one time another shop drained the hydraulic oil thinking they unscrewed the the engine drain plug. The car wouldn't move after and was smoking a lot from over filling the engine.😥
Would you change the CVT fluid on a 14-15 Forester with almost 100k miles, when you don't know the service history? Just bought one and it works fine, but I don't know if I should service the CVT or just leave it alone.
Subaru of America and 2 dealers I go to say lifetime fluid - don't change. Maybe 106K is the lifetime. On the 2 we own Subaru has extended the warranty on the CVT to 100K.
@@paleghost It's lifetime for the life of the part....if you want to extend the service life of it, you change the fluid. Simple!
@samuhell14 and you fight with Subaru when you have a life time powertrain. NNebior just blew his up at 125k in a 2020 OB XT . The dealer just put a new one in no questions asked.
I'm always amazed at the amount of machined components that are inside transmissions. Different technologies an methods to make these parts. You've got die casting to make the housings and some cover plates. Lots of machining on those castings. Smaller steel castings for pieces like the oil pump. Fine blanking for clutch plates. Large turned parts with gears and splines machined onto the turned parts. The chain/ belt is an amazing piece of technology in itself. These cvts seem to have there own special parts compared to manual or regular automatic transmissions. Compared to engines it's not surprising that engines were developed before transmissions but I guess they probably wouldn't need a transmission until they had engines.
Always fun to watch and I can truly imagine the stink of the cooked oil and components. Good stuff. 😊
I'm sure the issue was either the valve body or the TCM. Audi CVTs had a notorious TCM failure on their CVTs and you basically had to dismantle them to replace it. Ultimately there was a class action lawsuit with them and they had to replace all the CVTs under warranty up to a certain mileage and year.
I didnt know audi even used cvt.
Enjoyed it! Ignore the haters and fan bois-- you never claimed to be an expert here.
Much better than the CVT on my wifes Impreza, chain snapped at 30,000 kms
My 2014 Forester had CVT issues around 120k miles because I hadn't serviced the fluid at all. The CVT required a valve body replacement at 120k. I had the mechanic do a fluid exchange and I've replaced the fluid every 40k miles after that. That Forester has nearly 200k miles on it now and the CVT is still going strong. Change the fluid every 25-40k miles and you'll be surprised how reliable they are.
As the previous unfortunate owner of two Foresters, 2015, 2017 I can say from my numerous visits to the dealer and transmission rebuild specialist (who didn't warranty their work on these CVT) that they are certain to fail prematurely whatever people say, all CVT cars in the service department at all times had transmission issues 😂
I have a 2014 Subaru legacy 180k. I just replaced the valve body solenoids. Thank you for showing the inside of the CVT. I've changed the fluid a couple times (Front Diff fluid too) and it seems to be hanging in there, but not gunna lie I feel like I'm on borrowed time with the CVT. I wish there was better maintenance options other than throw in another used transmission with less miles and unknown condition.
I change my CVT fluid every 30,000 miles. So far so good. Had one go to 275,000 before the car got destroyed.
Another commenter said 25k otherwise by 30K it was "slippy".....
not much tolerance there
change the CVT fluid...
@@JohnSmith-pl2bk He was lying. I do 30-50K. I have 125k on the 2014 Juke and 88 on the 2017 Rogue. Both work fine. Juke slips over 60K. That was when I first got it, then it gets changed every 30K now. WHen the gas mileage drops, change the fluid immediately with genuine Nissan NS2.
@@TheOwlGuy777
I can't comment on how he drives or where he drives...perhaps it is equivalent to 'severe service" and he needs to change at 25k?
The rotten egg (sulfur smell) is 1.5 quarts of very used front dif fluid coming out… it starts light brown/tan when fresh, gets darker with use. I think you took out the fill plug while attempting to get it apart!
The transmission fluid starts light green and has a slight sweet smell. I wouldn’t say it smells good, but it is not bad unlike the dif fluid. 😂
I’m going to change my filter by dropping the pan at some point, probably closer to 100k miles. So this video was educational/helpful for me. Thank you sir!
I wouldn’t waste your time. My screen was fine when I did it. I bent the pan trying to remove it so it cost me more.
I own a 2024 Toyota Corolla with 2-liter and CVT and I am impressed with the performance and fantastic MPG. This CVT employs a first gear to launch and it works! I'm 64 this year and this car will outlast me.
Got a 2018 C-HR - Get the CVT flushed at 30k mile intervals - no matter WHAT Toyota tells you.
Our Civic is a fuel sipper - CVT and Turbo - 5 litres per 100km average city/highway.
I have a Toyota Corolla with a CVT, and while it took some getting used to, it’s very efficient to drive. I believe it comes down to how you take care of them. They can last if taken care of, but you must use the right fluid and drain it frequently.
I have a 2010 Subaru Forester on the second engine with the original 4-speed transmission. The current miles on my SUV are 472,727.
I've always wanted to see the inside of a cvt. This was a great tear down.
Thanks 👍🇺🇸
I took a financial hit on a 2014 nissian maxima. I got it at 104k miles. Cvt failed miserably, and I lost the car because they wanted $9k to replace it. So I pretty much threw out $7k haha and more trying to fix it. I will never own a CVT. Ended up buying a mazda 3 2017 2.5l with a real 6 speed transmission and at 23k miles on it. Anyways a year later I'm satisfied to this date.
We just had the CVT in my daughter's 2013 XV Crosstrek repaired at about 130,000 miles. A very common failure on these is the valve body, and that's what we had to replace. It's about a $1,500 repair depending on who does it. Since this is very common I was not surprised when you found the valve body missing during the teardown. I suspect someone grabbed it when that CVT died from other causes.
Other causes? What evidence of that did you see in this video?
If you dont already, you need to sell a T shirt that says "It's Fine."
And "where's big blue?"
and a shirt that says “stuff is happening” lol
We will have him a whole mech store before morning.
And.. Were just going to try some stuff
« Forbidden Glitter! »
I love your videos! Also love to be able to see all the different engineering approaches of new and not so new. Plus your entertaining style and breath of knowledge is amazing. Thanks.
CVT transmission on my 2015 Forester failed after 50 K miles. It was replaced under extended warranty. They offered one year warranty on the replacement transmission, which seemed too short to me and I traded in the vehicle.
Thanks, I enjoyed that - on the mpg "advantage" of CVTs over MTs, that's debatable (except for Subarus due to the differing AWD setup) - everyone points to the EPA numbers like they're truth, but the test rules don't allow for MTs to be shifted at optimal shift points for a given car like the WLTP test does - take a look at WLTP ratings in EU and you'll be surprised to see MTs edging CVTs in identical car-car comparos - there's large real world datasets that also support this (e.g. Mirage forum) - with no torque converter, MTs and DCTs still have less drivetrain loss - and they're fun to drive!
I love these oddball teardowns!
Great vid and comments! As the owner of a new 2024 Forester, having abandoned a 2015 Altima, the CvT subject is very timely. I traded the Altima so I would not be sticking someone with a bad CVT. I reached 77 k with a minor code. I will do early replacement on the Subaru fluids. No such thing as lifetime.
20 year Subaru tech here.
They have a higher rate of failure compared to 4Eat and 5Eat models. I believe there are a very large number that go along just fine beyond 150k-200 however because of the rate of failure finding a good one at a reasonable price is a tall task. Buy a new one? Be prepared for a $7000.00 + part alone. For a car that’s worth less than the part.
That’s technically totaled over a mechanical failure. Sad.
Add in the junky 2.0 or 2.5 chain drive engine after the discontinued EJ 2.5
The one people cry about doing head gaskets. Well enjoy your cam carrier leaks, chain cover leaks, excessive oil consumption, failed o-rings between block and upper oil pan allowing oil into cooling system and still have head gasket failures as well. Enjoy your plastic coolant bypass valves under the intake that will fail, and the carbon buildup on backside of direct injection intake valves, due to lightweight
oil/water that does not have the same lubricity ratings as 5w30 so it’s all pushing through your PVC system and into your intake.
Welcome to the new Subaru, inspired by BMW
Lease it, then get out! or buy yourself a really nice extended warranty that actually has good coverage.
The best of Subaru is history unfortunately.
They are built for first owners now.
I loved these cars for a really long time. But I’m afraid we’ve broken up now.
I've got a 2013 Legacy with the TR580. I bought it used with 56K on the odo...now has 120K. I've drained and filled the CVT fluid twice since I've owned it. Once after I bought it, and once again just recently. I've also changed out the diff fluids. So far, so good on the longevity. I believe someone here already mentioned problems with the valve body on these. I drive it every day wondering when it will rear its head.
I had a friend in the 1990's that had a Subi Justy with a CVT, and he hated it. To quote Dangerfield, “I tell ya, with my car it’s always easy for me to find it. It’s always on a lift. I got the only car that has more miles on it vertically than horizontally.”
Anecdotal information this is called.
Essentially worthless.
The original Justy was horrifically under powered, sadly a theme with a lot of CVT vehicles.
that's what that car my friend had i forgot he used to drive it off road which was hilarious you wondered if it would make it over a bump, it was so small.
As someone who had been working on Subarus the past 5 1/2 years I say this from experience. Subaru automatic transmissions aren’t bad at all. It’s usually the front differential that is the problem. I’m talking the 4EAT’d and 5EAT’s. The 10’-11’ Outback CVT did have torque converter failures (They wouldn’t unlock coming to a stop). And the other issue with all year CVT’s is a potential for the TQ lock up solenoid to go bad.
Subaru doesn’t sell the solenoid by itself. They wasn’t you to replace the whole valve body. Just this last week I replaced a TQ and solenoid in an 11’ OB and a solenoid in a 12’ OB. Have another one to do next week. Other than that and potential front differential issues, CVT’s are pretty good. Especially Subarus because if the big chain. Others can use belts and that’s not good.
It is so funny listening to you take something apart that you are not familiar with. Just like I would.😂
Rear end of the trans looks just like a 4-speed Subaru trans I tore down to replace the oil pump (seat your converter properly..) Odd that nothing seemed wrong inside. I drove a newer Maxima with a CVT and it was quite good actually, I think if you have good power, CVT is ok, small power (outback 4cyl) its not so ok. Those new 8-speed auto's are so good, drove a rental Santa Fe 2.5 with one, amazing how hard it shifted and nice close ratios. I enjoy the Trans teardowns, Miata trans repair next? I know you want to.
Very entertaining, though I imagine a Subie tech would look on this like an art restorer watching someone go at the Mona Lisa with a toothbrush and Comet. But we're here for laughs.
Hey, Van Doorne made these CVT things. He was a drive train genius. Invented the 'push-chain'. Good show. You had fun, and I enjoyed you having the fun.
My wife had a 2017 Nissan Rogue. The CVT transmission went out at 50,000 miles while she was heading to her audiologist appointment 120 miles from home. When I got to where the car died, 60 miles away, the transmission wouldn’t even go into gear. It was replaced under warranty. The technician that replaced it said the inside of the transmission was in pieces. Later, due to a class action law suit, the second transmission get an extended warranty. My wife told me with about 80k on the new transmission that it was starting to shift funny. Rather than us risking it going bad after the warranty expired, for 7200 bucks, not counting labor, I traded it in for her 2018 Ford Explorer. I only wish I could have seen the old transmission when they removed it.
Nissan is one of the worst car companies for reliability with the Rogue being the worst of them by far. They are money pits at best.
@@LMG3000-s8f
Since Nissan belongs to Renault…
This brings back bad memories! I worked for a major transmission remanufacturer and the Subaru line was one of my least favorite to work on. It's just a mess from start to finish! The requirements from Subaru for rebuilding these would make you think this was going on the space shuttle or something!
And it IS a belt. Push belt to be specific.
When I bought my car the salesman immediately started pushing a cvt vehicle on me so I humored him and asked him to describe a cvt transmission. When he was done I said " that sounds like a f ing disaster"
My '90 Justy had the first CVT, then called an ECVT, in any modern vehicle. It failed at 108k km. The case hardening on one cone failed causing a groove to wear in the cone wall causing the chain to hang in the groove. I'd the extended warranty to 100k km. I claimed manufacturing defect so Subaru paid $2500 for the replacement tranny and I paid $1500 for the labour. Vehicle had 237k km when traded at 10 years. Loved it. Especially the electromagnetic clutch. Very cool.
I work at a Transmission shop and most Subaru cvts only need a solenoid replaced on the valve body
The solenoid is what our 2013 Outback needed. ( I tried to tell the dealer that the solenoid on E Bay was only like 60 bucks, but they said no and changed them all for about $600. ) Also the high trans temp light came on going up hills and the fluid was changed and problem solved. ( Repairs needed just after the 100 K mile warranty LOL ) Got 150 K miles on it now. The car still drives great.
Would you say that would be the reason when the engine would rev up like it's under load but the transmission doesn't change or whatever and the car feel like it's not going no where
@@GabrielSBarbaraS lol… you tried to tell the dealer… Did you know that you could buy a kidney on the black market for less than what the hospital charges?
Amen! Again more exaggerated loose talk misinformation about these. Go to Mr. Subaru’s channel instead. The TR580 & 690 from Subaru (built in house and only by Subaru) are actually excellent transmissions, (especially 2017+). The problem has almost hardly been internally within them mechanically failing etc… the ACTUAL problem is/has been that Subaru of America* (only them) told clients that they WEREN’T supposed to service the fluid ever “sealed unit/lifetime” bs etc… and that ends up fouling the pressure solenoids in the valve body’s which then you need to (and should wisely) replace as a whole new valve body unit. Then countless people mistaken them for internal failure. There are ENDLESS examples of many Subaru folks getting 225k+ out of these trouble free as long as they’re properly cared for.. INCLUDING people towing regularly! I’m on a 2017 Crosstrek TR580 with 87k miles. Vehicle was in a front end wreck and got rebuilt title at 31k miles. Serviced the fluid twice so far, drives like new.
Yes, Mr Transmission in Red Deer repaired the OD solenoid at 220,000km , Subaru oil at Subaru and fine at 255,000km.
The tr690 is a great transmission. They have been working out the past problems with the 580. The new WRX has one. Great performance and fuel efficiency
Except for the chain belt, it reminds me of a torque converter on a snow mobile. Kind of reminds me of the transmission in a DAF.
The mechanical design is phenomenal . And the machining technology amazing .
In fairness, Subaru ATs used to be cheap because so many engines were failing with transmission intact.
It might be short to make a belt out of, but that would be a really wild watchband, probably several watchbands. Very interesting video, thanks
Maintenance is key. Don’t listen to the owners manual about never changing the oil in one. Change the CVT oil every 30k and they will last a long time.