JUNK CVT Subaru Outback TR580 Full Transmission Teardown Dead At 108k!
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- Опубліковано 23 кві 2024
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Today is something different! We have a bad CVT out of a 2014 Subaru Outback with only 108k miles, just 8K miles outside of the extended warranty through Subaru. This was a freebie from a friend and there's no goal of fixing, repairing, or salvaging any components for reuse. These transmissions are not as reliable as the standard automatic transmissions they replaced, and have been the reason many of these cars end up scrapped. Fortunately for those who are inclined, you can buy the individual components if you wanted to attempt to fix one of these transmissions. There aren't a lot of places offering a "remanufacturing" service however.
The goal of a CVT is to keep the engine at its most efficient RPM while accelerating and cruising. On paper, they are better on fuel. In reality, they aren't always better on fuel. They are cheaper to produce, and easier to control emissions on which is why some manufacturers prefer them.
My experiences tell me they aren't as reliable as their automatic transmission counterparts, and because they are typically less repairable when they fail, it becomes a financial burden on the owner of the car. Not all of them are unreliable, and many of them are very good depending on what kind of vehicle you buy. For instance, the 6 cylinder Subaru CVT seems to be very reliable compared to this one. That being said, do your research before you jump into a car with a CVT. - Авто та транспорт
Hey, a bunch of questions I'm qualified to answer as a subaru tech.
First off, this 2014 OB's TR580 was the 2nd year of the existence of the 580. The powerflow and components inside of it are quite different from the TR690, which became the "big boy" transmission but was also the first model, which debuted in the 2010-12 legacy/outback. The primary issue the early TR690s would face is chain slip, which generally is caused by a dip of fluid pressure. Through years of iteration and improvements, these problems have largely been corrected as long as the vehicle load is kept on the lower end. (Ascent problems notwithstanding.) The common fail point in the TR580 by contrast is usually a valve body solenoid failure, either the torque converter lockup solenoid (which is basically always applied) or the transfer clutch solenoid (aka "awd" or "center diff"). In either case, the valve body is a serviceable component, with a new one in the ~$700 range MSRP. the 580 has also gone through a number of revisions and updates through the years and has landed at a fairly stable place nowadays.
@2:08 how many 4EAT/5EAT transmissions had problems? Less than these early CVTs, but definitely not zero either. It took a solid 5-6 years-worth of recalls and bulletins before the 4EAT landed in a stable place. The 5EAT was only used behind the higher-output engines (EZ30/36 in a tribeca, for example) and was pretty solid but occasionally would have 3-4 or 3-2 slip issues.
@2:20 the tailshaft cup is missing, looks super weird without it>
The transmission is designed to be serviced when it's stood up on its snout, would have had an easier time that way lol.
@4:14 yes, it was. That's the transfer clutch drum, aka the center diff. As the piston you're holding squishes, it sends power out to the rear driveshaft, which splines onto the end you pushed through.
@5:18 you don't need to take that nut off, as I assume you're about to discover. That is the pinion shaft, and will lead to the front differential.
@5:51 this is where you'd find the aforementioned valve body. It is accessible in the car relatively easily without having to move anything; there's just enough space in the transmission tunnel to sneak in there and remove this cover plate. I assume the valve body was removed so that it could be rebuilt.
@6:11 this cover is primarily just a chain that runs from the torque converter to the oil pump. This cover is a very common source of leaks on newer TR690s, and occasionally a leak point on TR580s. An indexing prybar is the ideal tool to remove this.
@7:42 thank you for bringing this up -- because a differential will always have some metal-on-metal wear and therefore metal in the fluid, I think one reason subaru CVTs are more robust than their jatco/nissan counterparts is because of this fluid separation. (In the nissan transmissions, the diff is lubricated by the trans fluid.) Also, I'll put this blurb here, but Subaru does not have a *required* interval for diff fluid service, only an "inspect and replace as necessary" every 30k, but in my experience it'll already look pretty gross at 30k (from break-in) and then be fine until 90/150/210/etc. from there on out. Subaru calls the CVT fluid a "lifetime" fluid, and I'm sure you have an opinion on that, but their criteria for it being failed is if it is no longer translucent. While the stuff coming out of this trans is quite dark, it does not appear to be murky, and so in Subaru's eyes would be considered "ok." (Most technicians would agree doing them on a 60k interval is fine for normal use. Subaru does say replacement at ~30k miles if you "tow regularly" -- and does not elaborate what that means.)
@8:49 this is a serviceable part but it's called a "strainer" not a filter, and it's more akin to the pickup screen in your engine's oil intake. The amount of metal on that magnet is average to less-than-average. That fluid view at 9:00 though, is not normal.
@10:35 early-00's and older subarus also used a double-roll-pin axle with stub shafts in the front. Company23 makes an *excellent* punch tool for servicing those.
@11:21 I have literally never seen or even heard of a leaking shift shaft seal on any subaru auto transmission. (They all use a very similar design.)
@12:16 and this is about as far as we're supposed to do teardowns at the dealer level. While the chains/sheaves/etc. parts *are* available in the parts catalog, subaru does not provide the special tools necessary to decompress the sheave and remove the chain set. However, all master techs do a full disassembly and reassembly of a CVT as part of the training program, so I suppose someday we might be doing rebuilds.
@13:06 subaru calls this the "manual valve" and it's connected to the shift selector you elegantly removed -- this hydraulically controls shifting through the valve body. Should note here everything from the selector lever in the car all the way to the valve body is all physically linked; no electronic shifter gizmos in any subaru (so far).
@13:30 this is the step where the sheave would be separated -- you'd need essentially a huge 2-jaw or 3-jaw puller on the big side to release the chain from the sheave. There's a really good youtube video from a Kennedy Transmissions shop in St Paul, MN doing a teardown of an early TR690 -- he shows the puller in use.
@13:48 that chain guide probably popped out during disassembly -- if it popped out during operation it would be all chewed up or broken -- but inspecting that chain guide was part of the WRK recall process for the 19-21 Ascent.
@16:30 this is the forward/reverse clutch drum and planetary set. In the TR580, when you pick R, everything after this set spins "backwards" -- chain and sheaves included -- and then when you select "D" all of that stuff needs to change direction. This means, if you own a TR580, ***do not shift from R to D while the car is still rolling.*** One of the major differences between this and the TR690 is that the D/R planetary set comes after the chain/sheaves.
@17:18 the smell comes from the air trapped in the bolt holes, it's like a stale, fishy, crabapple blossom-y kind of smell. You'll get it when pulling the engines apart too.
@18:00 very good, yes those rotating cups set the pre-load. They're also basically impossible to remove once corrosion sets in on the case, even with the correct special tools.
@20:53 those diff bearings don't look tooooo bad. We've had more than a few cases where a "quick oil change* place will try to do a front diff fluid service, drain it, and then use the wrong port to try to "fill" it. They dump 1.4 qt of gear oil into the trans and leave the f diff empty, which means they get to buy a new trans for the customer.
@22:45 looks like we're taking apart the transfer clutch. There is a current TSB for the Ascent for this clutch having some pretty bad wear in the drum and causing a binding, which leads to wheel chatter around turns. Haven't seen that failure in any other CVT though. It *was* a somewhat-common problem in early 4EAT transmissions. You can see just a little bit of wear at 23:01 on the sides of the drum.
@25:40 never thought to take apart a chain that way, lol, interesting technique. Hoping you'll show us the faces of the sheaves here, as if this was experiencing "chain slip" you'd see some scoring on the faces of the sheaves. @22:67 yeah i'm not seeing anything obvious in there.
Not really sure what failed in this one that necessitated replacement tbh. Could have been from bearing noise or could be misdiagnosis.
Anyway, I'm a very regular contributor at r/subaru, if you or anyone else has any questions feel free to post up :)
Having owned 5 subi's.. all were manuals .. Subaru and others should have sued for producing a product that was designed to fail just to meet an EPA mandated. Working in logistics for 30 years, if CVT's were that awsome every unit in the operation would have used them. The most efficient and long lasting method of power transfer is gears. From forklifts to yard mules and container loaders.
Incredible writeup. I should pop over to r/Subaru to see your recommendations for buying a used CVT-Subaru. The 6MT hasn't been the smoothest in my '18 Forester and I've had to stiffen up the transmission crossmember bushings using a 'positive shift kit'. I went with a boomba racing shift plate but should've stuck with Kartboy or Perrin and/or just ordered the boomba racing short throw shifter.
Is the transmission fluid on the 6MT the same as it is for the front drive axle, or?
Really appreciate this input and write up, was cool to follow along with the timestamps on the tear down
Great write up!
This comment should be pinned by Eric. Hope he _really_ reads _all_ the comments 😅
From Subaru's perspective, this is a great transmission. It lasted just past the warranty, which means the engineers got it just right. 😛
We don't know how the car was driven, and if the transmission fluid was changed out often enough. You gotta change that oil every 30 grand. I have experience with jatco cvt's. You can't run and gun with a cvt, you gotta take it easy.
Me personally, I change CVT oil every 20k miles....you can't trust the manufacturer recommendations. It also helps if the CVT has a starting gear... starting from a dead stop is hard on them.
So true, they are in business to sell cars and parts, not pay to have repairs done.
It's easy to ascribe this sort of mentality to literally any company, but in my experience, that has never been Subaru's design and engineering ethos. They know that people buy to own and keep the cars a very long time. Subaru has made a lot of mistakes, but I genuinely do not think this is intentional. The Subaru CVT is generally quite reliable with regular fluid changes and aside from the first few years having solenoid pack issues. Also very easy cars to work on, contrary to what internet memes would tell you, and that traces back to engineering that considers the owner as well.
The problem with planned obsolescence, is the bad feelings you generate in your customer base. You want people to keep buying new cars, and every person you piss off because their car cratered, can cost you multiple sales. I owned a 2002 Chevy Malibu that started mixing oil and coolant at around 28,000 miles. It did it outside of the age warranty, when the value of the car was about the same as the cost to fix it. I won't buy a Chevrolet again.
"I thought they smelled bad on the outside" - Han Solo
At 17:22 "it smells like month old tuna that just came out of the microwave when it was on fire" 🤣🤣🤣
I'm sorry you can identify this odor :D
Yeah, bout that smell 🤢🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
How did you know it was on fire? Had that BBQ feel😂🎉
@@kristensorensen2219 theres a very specific smell to burnt fluids. one of the easiest to detect
And I made the mistake of eating while watching this, I should know better by now :)
The sulfur based EP additives start out smelling bad, then get worse when they form complex sulfur compounds as they are 'activated' by the heat of metal-to-metal contact. The complex compounds are what keeps the contacting metal parts from sticking to each other then tearing apart. Complex sulfur compounds have various smells, all unpleasant.
Bottom line: yes, resisting extreme pressure causes more stink.
That explains why Diff oil is the worst out of all the odoriferous oils.
1djbecker, good post. useful info to know. rotten egg gas, fart gas, thioles, garlic, the odours added to natural gas for safety reasons, skunk smells, they are all sulfur smells.
_"Complex sulfur compounds have various smells, all unpleasant"_ I beg to disagree, as garlic, green onion (and regular one), leek and such all have their right (if not righteous) place in cuisines all over the world - be it Chinese, Mexican, Indian or Mediterranean one - and oh, speaking of Indian cuisine - "stinking resin", in Latin "asa foetida", aka "asafetida" (or "hing" in Hindi) - not to mention truffles...
And then "one month old tuna" would NOT smell of sulphur compounds, but of all sort of primary organic amines (or di- and tri-amines) - as all rotting bodies do. Putrescine (butane-1,4-diamine) and cadaverine (pentane-1,5-diamine) are the best know examples. Also, that "fish-like" smell many men find strangely attractive ("strangely", heh heh...) is amine-based, and oh, while at it (pun not intended) - skatole, _"the primary contributor to faecal odour"_ (which, funnily enough _"in low concentrations, it has a flowery smell and is found in several flowers and essential oils, including those of orange blossoms and jasmine; it has also been identified in certain cannabis varieties"_ ), so this skatole is also an organic amine (secondary one).
...but I digress here ;-)
@@MrKotBonifacy Not everyone finds them pleasant, but I'll stand corrected with the exclusive "all".
@@1djbecker : )
I wear my safety glasses 🥽 every time I view your videos.
Not gonna lie...I squint! :)
😂
Forklift attacks DO happen.
bro no body on here is going tell you how great CVTs are😅😅
@@Dwizzlejay Mine works well in my 2015 Lexus RX450h AWD……for now.😳
My grannys crosstrek went thru 2 of these in 150k miles. The second one failed. She has a 21 corolla now. Huge improvement
The Toyotas are good for 240k miles.
This one gives your "I'm just a guy who zips bolts out till the parts fall off" a whole new meaning. All kinds of parts and pieces falling off of it.
If you dont already, you need to sell a T shirt that says "It's Fine."
Someone needs to draw a picture of him standing with Blue in one hand and that big mallet in the other in front of a table with something that wasn't supposed to come apart saying that phrase. 😂😂
And "where's big blue?"
and a shirt that says “stuff is happening” lol
We will have him a whole mech store before morning.
And.. Were just going to try some stuff
My son bought a new Chevy Spark years ago which had a CVT. He hated it, had it at the dealer numerous times because the transmission didn't seem right. After 18 months and 15,000 or so miles he traded it in for another new Chevy spark with a 5 speed on the floor. Loves it and has had it for 4 years now with no issues.
I think of belt-and-pulley style CVT's like this: Lets say I had a shaft that I wanted to rotate. Instead of putting some splines on that shaft and using a gear to turn it, I'm going to stick a ball bearing on the shaft. Then I am going to squeeze that bearing so hard that the bearing locks up and I can turn the shaft by spinning the outer bearing race. It isn't a perfect example, but it gives you an idea of what this system is trying to do. It is squeezing these metal pins in the belt really hard in one direction, and then pushing on those same pins in another direction to actually transfer power from the engine to the wheels. That is a whole lot of stress on those pins from multiple directions at the same time.
We have the advanced materials to make belt-and-pulley systems work, but they are always going to be putting a lot of stress on their core components to make the squeeze-so-hard-it-doesn't-slip thing work compared to a normal automatic or a manual.
There's some clever molecular mechanics going on in the oils that these transmissions use as well. Under extreme pressure the molecules form a rigid microfilm that is essentially a solid connection between the two metal parts, but without actual metal contact.
The only good CVT is the "hybrid synergy drive" because it isn't a CVT at all, it's a single planetary gearset with a motor on the planetary carrier so that the speed and direction of the motor adjusts the ratio of the engine to the wheels. It irritates me how such a cool concept creates such a dull driving experience, but I will high five any Toyota engineer who worked on it. And PSA: when considering a Toyota Hybrid, none of the "CVT problems" will affect you. It doesn't even have a torque converter.
@@thirdpedalnirvana Believe it or not, I had a whole paragraph typed up about Toyota's planetary gear based eCVT and why it was better, but I ended up cutting it out! Suffice it to say, I agree with you. It is a much better system than a pusher belt.
@@sadlerbw9 idk why mechanical automotive cvts are even a thing when eCVTs exist. CVTs are better for fuel economy but hybrids with an eCVT are even better than CVTs without the reliability problems. Trucks, V6 cars, crossovers, etc. should all have traditional automatics or manuals, with an option for a hybrid system in some cases. Also, while mild hybrid systems can offer increased fuel economy, the small increase versus how expensive the starter-alternator-motors are to replace when they inevitably fail just isn't worth it. True hybrids and plug-in hybrids are just better, full stop.
The comical thing is that Toyota uses a regular CVT in the modern Corolla. Theirs are a bit more robust as they have a crawler/launch gear to reduce strain on the chain when taking off from a stop, but they still aren't as good as a hybrid eCVT as far as efficiency and potential power output if Toyota would for the love of god make their eCVT equipped hybrids more responsive. Shoulda gone with a 5 or 6 speed auto for the non-hybrid non-GR Corolla imho, but at least the Corolla is far more appropriately sized for a regular CVT than a Nissan Maxima.
@crisburn no difference When a transmission design is absolute shit
The most interesting part is the fluid that gives the chain the “traction” on the smooth variators (pulleys as you called them) that makes it able to drive and be driven.
Knowing the ins and outs of a car engine is one thing, but I am in awe of anyone who can work on automatic transmissions. There are SO many little parts, and each one is different in its own way. And don't forget the engineers who come up with these ideas and successfully build them.
There are people (I'm one of them but not at super high level) that are able to tear apart, clean and reassemble a minute repeater tourbillon mechanical wristwatch composed by hundreds (like 500/600) minuscule parts, I don't see any problem with an automatic transmission :) Much simplier. The difference is done by experience: in this case all looks fine but there's a reason if this was replaced, and see the reason is the key :)
@@AlessandroGenTLe The thing is, when you're working on the watch, at least you don't have to haul it out of a car and there's not someone that doesn't know what time it is while you're fixing it :)
It’s really not that difficult. You dive into the diagrams, schematics and written tasks and become very familiar and comfortable that it becomes second nature.
Precision Transmission Channel. That old guy has a lot of knowledge about every build
Honestly at any decent tech school they have you tear down and rebuild an auto trans. Some people even specialize in it.
But this shit is warp science. And also stupid IMO.
One thing about the CVT, the fluid is designed to provide friction, not remove it. It also must cool the unit. It is imperative that to make them last, the fluid must be exchanged with the same type about every 30k miles.
Friction is heat. The fluid is designed to create heat AND remove it?
Friction doesn't generate heat if the two mating surfaces don't move relative to one another. That's how a manual transmission clutch works -- it generates no heat when you're in gear. The CVT generates perhaps a little heat as the belt moves up and down the sheaves, but not much if there's no slippage. AWD clutches between front and rear hardly ever slip much, either. The tires accommodate most slippage. You're confusing moving friction, such as cranks and cams in bearings, and piston rings sliding in cylinders, all of which generate heat from rubbing, with static friction where no heat is generated due to no relative motion between surfaces.
In a CVT, the biggest power loss is the pump, which runs conatantly to press the two sets of sheaves together - hard - that prevents the push chain from slipping.
I don't see mucg wrong with this CVT myself. It's very well made and machined. No cheapjack parts anywhere. The front diff seems iffy, and that's not part of the CVY at all. The missing control module -- now what was wrong with that? One wonders.
In other words, after this teardown Eric has no clue what caused it to be condemned, and neither does anyone else here.
All people have is opinions, so who cares what they think? I don't, when people opine nonsense out of their left ear based on nothing whatsoever, especially knowledge.
And no, I don't own a Subaru -- I did once, and the five speed Jatco automatic ate itself. About the same time the rear subframe rusted apart.
Based on the zero knowledge the Subru dealer mechanics had about the 5-speed, I'd bet they know zero about the CVT. So what were the symptoms of failure here?
Nobody knows. But they have solid totally uninformed opinions.
Meh. I learned nothing whatsoever from this teardown.
@@BillMalcolm-tn3kq did you saw the fluid color? Usually it is red, not brown. Weird.
Some CVTs have a heat exchanger mounted to the case, but its main job is to warm the CVT at colder temps. Honda does this, the exchanger is part of the HVAC heater core coolant loop. The idea is to get the CVT to the same temp as the engine block. In fact, Honda labels the part as a CVT warmer on their parts diagrams.. Because a CVT is low friction, as compared to a conventional automatic, it needs the assist from the exchanger to stay at a steady temp.
Thats quit the word salad you typed out to just say you dont know shit about CVT. @@BillMalcolm-tn3kq
The engineering, design, and know how that goes into these things boggles my mind.
Engineered to fail
Having watched "Precision Transmission" for a long time, and seeing him tear down a transmission in under 5 minutes -yes- this was truly entertaining. Not that I could have done any better.
Richard and Teresa educational transmission is their new page
I'm just glad I'm not the only one who has watched them.
@@JustinMonast and they're still posting fire videos showing off Richard being a genius to this very day, dude could probably rebuild a 4Lslippy in his sleep and have it fully built and ready to go by the time he wakes up the next morning.
I've got a 1999 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon with the original 4EAT automatic transmission currently a 320,000 miles. No issues, shifts perfectly and i take the car off-roading all the time.
We own a 2015 Forester. A solenoid on the valve body went bad 200 miles shy of the extended 100,000 miles coverage and was covered by that campaign.
To me, there’s a place for CVT. The biggest criticism I have is that transmissions are now advertised as “sealed” units. We have drain-and-filled the transmission fluid every 30k miles; a completely DIY job.
They are great for scooters!
"Sealed" just means no dip stick.
Good call on the fluid interval, seems to be the key to longevity on these cvts
Nobody likes a CVT. They literally suck.
Same fluid interval on my 2012 Altima. Now at 170,000 and no sign of quitting.
When the Car Care Nut says “that’s okay” and you say “it’s fine,” in both cases the real meaning is that it’s probably bad 😢.
Fine for business.
Love the transmission teardowns. I like seeing how they work.
“Month old tuna”
That was poetically descriptive
reminds me of a nasty girlfriend...
@@23billd TMI
These videos are the best, love seeing strange things like CVTs!
I work at a Transmission shop and most Subaru cvts only need a solenoid replaced on the valve body
I actually enjoy different teardowns. This was very informative and the commentary kept it fun!
Two things that kill these. One is not changing the fluid every 30k which oddly is recomended in canada. The 2nd is not waiting for the car to stop before changing direction
I've overhauled AT's from 1980 down, including 5 to 16 speed 18 wheeler trans, but I'm glad I never had to do one of these, looks more like a puzzle. Good luck Eric !! 😮
Dude always delivers has met every video request i have had, thanks man!
Completely overwhelmed by all the specialty tools and technical knowledge
Why is it every time I get ready to watch some other video there's a I DO Car's video that pop's up and I have no choice but to click on it. I mean I know I have a choice but I prefer to watch you tear down carnage try to salvage part's. Plus the bad joke's Always make me smile since might be getting older but I'm still as mature as a 14 yr old XD. Take care! hope you have a fantastic rest of your week.
How convenient it died immediately after the extended warranty ran out. We bought my wife's '14 Outback from a Subaru tech who had thankfully just replaced the transmission under warranty before putting it up for sale. I've been doing fluid changes on it every 15k miles since we got it and fingers crossed it's still solid 40k miles later.
Are the fluid changes hard to do? I have one at 30k and I am wondering what preventative I can do for these.
Why would you even buy such a piece of junk in the first place though?
@@jermsman18 Not terrible. The pan has a drain plug. I just do a spill and fill. It doesn't get all of it but it drains enough to make it worth your while.
@@HenrySomeone Because everything else about the car has been rock solid. They're extremely stable and extremely safe. Both interested me greatly considering she's hauling my son around in it all the time. If you've ever driven a Subaru in nasty weather you would quickly understand the appeal to them. Subarus get a really bad reputation because the majority of their owners don't properly maintain them. I've been daily driving my 500whp WRX for 5 years and have put 40k carefree miles on it. If you take care of them they will last as long as you want. They're also some of the easiest cars I've ever worked on. If at some point down the road I have to spend $500~ to replace a transmission that I can swap myself in a few hours I think that's a pretty fair trade for all the benefits I get from the car. Besides, can you even name one car that people haven't discovered some sort of defect with over time?
Subarus are ok, at best. If I’m looking to feel secure in bad weather I can assure you it’s not in a Subaru…it will be a Land Cruiser everyday and twice on Sunday.
I have trouble not enjoying these tear downs. Thanks again for the mid week.
Thank you Eric!👍
I own a 2024 Toyota Corolla with 2-liter and CVT and I am impressed with the performance and fantastic MPG. This CVT employs a first gear to launch and it works! I'm 64 this year and this car will outlast me.
Got a 2018 C-HR - Get the CVT flushed at 30k mile intervals - no matter WHAT Toyota tells you.
My father used to say that old, burnt transmission fluid with burnt friction discs smells like "burnt monkeys" 🤣🤣
A friend who was at a remote site in Viet Nam during the war spoke of eating BBQ monkey with the guys once when supplies ran out. The phrase which stuck with him was "Throw another monkey on the fire." So around here, when you are in a meeting or similar and trying to solve a problem but get stuck, we say "Time to throw another monkey on the fire" meaning re-think things from the beginning or from a different angle.
I have a 2016 highlander hybrid, with CVT and I love it, and yeah you got it 340K miles, I tow my boat all over with it and its been fantastic, now Im worried of getting another CVT vehicle, I feel lucky to have gotten this many miles
Never saw a cvt transmission yet, excellent vídeo as always, nice did!
In fairness, Subaru ATs used to be cheap because so many engines were failing with transmission intact.
The coolest thing about CVT is that the reverse gear can go just as fast as forward. At least, I'm kinda sure they engineered some dohikey so you can't, but that's extra effort.
DAF made a car with CVT, in the 60s in Holland, and crazy people raced them in reverse!
I like the semi-different content. Appreciated
Great video! It was nice to meet you and your brother over the weekend. Sorry for my awkward introduction. Was nice to chat with you.
The planetary gears in this I do believe are for the center differential. I personally hope you get more "opportunities" like this. It's entertaining and informative.
The clutch pack inside the rear housing is for the rear output. There is a solenoid valve that supplies fluid, and should give about 10% engagement at all times, keeping some fluid running through there. When a speed mismatch is detected, the computer opens that valve, engaging the rear output solidly. On the old 4EAT cars, it had power supplies constantly, and was grounded by the computer iirc. You could add a wire and switch to ground to manually engage the rear output. Pulling the AWD fuse under the hood would remove the power, so it wouldn't try engaging when you had a tire mismatch or something.
This one looks like someone screwed with the carrier adjusters, maybe they were chasing a noise, but probably shouldn't have been in there.
I had a friend in the 1990's that had a Subi Justy with a CVT, and he hated it. To quote Dangerfield, “I tell ya, with my car it’s always easy for me to find it. It’s always on a lift. I got the only car that has more miles on it vertically than horizontally.”
Anecdotal information this is called.
Essentially worthless.
The original Justy was horrifically under powered, sadly a theme with a lot of CVT vehicles.
that's what that car my friend had i forgot he used to drive it off road which was hilarious you wondered if it would make it over a bump, it was so small.
I like a few transmissions thrown into the mix...good show, and like your overview on the engines and transmissions.
I love these oddball teardowns!
As a Subaru tech I can say 95% of CVT’s won’t have an issue as long as you have them serviced. However the biggest killer of CVT transmissions is incorrect service. Shops who don’t know Subarus end up draining the front differential or cvt instead of the engine oil. Just this week I’ve had 2 cars, a 15 forester and 19 outback with 4 neutrals because a shop incorrectly serviced the vehicle
I'm an independent and I've dealt with your exact same situation with Subarus twice and also a few times with 2016+ Audi's quattro transmissions as they have 3 different fluids in the same unit. I remember one time another shop drained the hydraulic oil thinking they unscrewed the the engine drain plug. The car wouldn't move after and was smoking a lot from over filling the engine.😥
Would you change the CVT fluid on a 14-15 Forester with almost 100k miles, when you don't know the service history? Just bought one and it works fine, but I don't know if I should service the CVT or just leave it alone.
Subaru of America and 2 dealers I go to say lifetime fluid - don't change. Maybe 106K is the lifetime. On the 2 we own Subaru has extended the warranty on the CVT to 100K.
@@paleghost It's lifetime for the life of the part....if you want to extend the service life of it, you change the fluid. Simple!
@samuhell14 and you fight with Subaru when you have a life time powertrain. NNebior just blew his up at 125k in a 2020 OB XT . The dealer just put a new one in no questions asked.
Former Saturn technician here, I worked on a few Saturn CVTs. Yes, the fluid smells nasty, and is also a skin irritant. It is totally different than the conventional red ATF fluids we are used to.
Yes, the pulleys are commonly known as variators, as in they change the drive ratio by moving closer or farther away from each other. It's quite similar to the drive system in a snowmobile or UTV, but the belt is steel, and the ratios are precisely controlled by the somewhat complex valve body applying variable hydraulic pressure to the variators.
I found it interesting Subaru uses a wide silent chain in their CVT, as opposed to Honda and Nissan, who use a "push" belt composed of elements that stack up, held together by a pair of stainless steel bands. Go check out his prior video of the teardown of a Honda CR-V trans, the concept is quite different.
I didn't even know Saturn made cars with CVTs, I mean damn the company only lasted what, 10 years until GM decided they weren't good enough?
@@lsswappedcessna They put CVTs in the ION coupes, and the 4-cylinder VUE, if I remember correctly. Production of the original S-series Saturns had ended somewhere around 2002, from then on Saturn design had been pulled back into the GM fold. The Saturn CVTs weren't very reliable, as another commenter on here mentioned, and GM dropped them in favor of conventional automatics.
As a side note, I put 100k miles on a S-Series wagon, bought used for cheap, and it was a reasonably good car.
Thanks for this, I own a 24 outback so have a similar transmission in mine, cool to see what it’s made of.
Good Video. I like the change-up from the Ubiquitous engines, don't get me wrong, love the engine shrapnel. It's neat seeing how tech works.
It is so funny listening to you take something apart that you are not familiar with. Just like I would.😂
The only non-CVT transmission Subaru has had any issues with over the last 30 years is the 5MT that eventually ended up on the WRX. It was originally designed to mate up to a 70hp engine, and didn't start having issues until the WRX started approaching 250hp. The 6-speed manual they designed for the STI was mated to a 300hp engine, but easily handles up to 600hp. They obviously lowered their standards considerably for the CVT.
Well 70hp is quite a stretch. The Subaru 5 speed design used in the early USDM WRX circa 2002 was launched with the Legacy circa 1989. That came with the EJ22 along with the EJ18 and numerous other variants, but also the EJ20 turbo in Japan. Those engines made anywhere from 110hp to 217 or so. It was designed to handle 200 horsepower or more quite easily, but 227 and a lot of extra weight was pushing it. Add some mods or sticky tires and it got too spicy. By changing gear geometry and adding some strength to the case, they pretty much mitigated the issues and kept using that trans design for... many years.
@@802Garage The original 5MT arrived with the AWD models of the Subaru Leone in the early 70s. They did revamp it a bit for the 1985 model year, but that was still the Leone.
@@sproutpits Just did a bunch of research and yeah it def appears the design is shared with the 1985+ Leone/Loyale. Always more to learn. I thought only the bell housing pattern and some other design aspects were shared. There are a lot of changes internally and some externally though, especially the further you get along. I mean they used the same transmission in the early WRX and really there weren't any reliability issues even in the turbo Legacy. Problems started to pop up with the 2002 WRX which was a fair bit heavier, plus people started pumping up the power. At that point you started to see split cases or stripped second gear. They pretty much fixed those issues with a couple years of revisions. I getcha though.
No, the original four speed Subaru manual came out about 1973. By screwing around with bits here and there, hanging another gear outside rhe box but inside the space devoted to the AWD gubbins, they eventually managed to squeeze 6 speeds into the box. That is the crap notchy WRX box the WRX has today. The STI 6 speed was bespoke and rugged. A different beast entirely.
Now the 5-speed auto that went into Legacu GTs and H-6 equipped Subarus was no star at all. I and many others had problems with that so-so piece.
@@802Garage Ya, it's an interesting story. I'm invested in it because I've owned a 2002 WRX since it was new and went through the process of adding power until I had to swap to a 6-speed. I never did break the 5-speed, but I was more careful with it than I am with the 6-speed.
Hey, Van Doorne made these CVT things. He was a drive train genius. Invented the 'push-chain'. Good show. You had fun, and I enjoyed you having the fun.
"I really don't know how this pump comes apart"
WHERE ARE MY HAMMERS?
I change my CVT fluid every 30,000 miles. So far so good. Had one go to 275,000 before the car got destroyed.
Another commenter said 25k otherwise by 30K it was "slippy".....
not much tolerance there
change the CVT fluid...
@@JohnSmith-pl2bk He was lying. I do 30-50K. I have 125k on the 2014 Juke and 88 on the 2017 Rogue. Both work fine. Juke slips over 60K. That was when I first got it, then it gets changed every 30K now. WHen the gas mileage drops, change the fluid immediately with genuine Nissan NS2.
@@TheOwlGuy777
I can't comment on how he drives or where he drives...perhaps it is equivalent to 'severe service" and he needs to change at 25k?
I've had 4 of these since they came out and as long as you follow the 50k service and flush the fluid and obviously make sure that you keep up on any leaks so they don't run low on fluid these cats should have no problem hitting over 200k miles all 5 of mine all bought used with between 20k-100k miles on them were in perfect condition when I sold them with the lowest mileage of 225k. I never showed them any mercy and overheated them all several times over the time I had them
I have done several of these transmissions and every single one was from a quick lube station draining the transmission instead of the oil. It's not a fault of Subaru.
Nice change up from engines. Was cool to see the guts of a Subie CVT.
I bought my Mazda 6 because it had a normal automatic transmission. Was originally looking at a Nissan but they all had cvt's. The real transmission sold me. Great car.
After watching your video on this Subaru CVT, I can understand why many recommend scraping rather than trying to rebuild. I guess the other option is buying a new transmission or vehicle!
Thank you for great videos!
Just undoing every bolt you can see until parts fall off .... i'm sure i'm not the only person wh can relate to this level of expertise .. lol
That was a mystery inside a mess of weird parts; some cool looking contraptions🤔🤷overall a ton of fun for Wednesday!!👍💛🍸to you Eric❤
A mystery wrapped up in a conundrum.....
It's fun watching Eric try disassembling things he's not familiar with. You can see his mechanic's intuition...and he has a lot!
Please, please try a piston aircraft engine some day! Little 4 cyl Continental would be perfect!
The only transmission work I have done was to replace a shift solenoid in the valve body. I ended up breaking a brittle gasket so I disassembled all the layers of the valve body and replaced all the gaskets....LOTS of little pieces can fall out and I was almost surprised it worked when I put it all back together. 645,000 miles on that transmission now.
LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT!!
I'm gonna turn on TV and watch. My opinion later when I finish..
I could hear the Subaru techs screaming from here when you took to the belt with Blue!
Worked at a Jeep dealer about a decade ago, can confirm, CVTs can go to the fieriest pit of hell. Had a man buy lifetime powertrain warranty, he drives A LOT. How much? He had a 2012 Jeep Compass with the good ol' 2.4 mated to the CVT. 500,000 miles in 5 years. We replaced 6 transmissions, the damn oil pan wasn't even seeping. I'd say he got his money's worth.
I bought the extended warranty and service plan too because everything has a cvt now
It might be short to make a belt out of, but that would be a really wild watchband, probably several watchbands. Very interesting video, thanks
Valve body solenoid is usually the only failure on these.
Bingo! Subaru is still to blame, but the part is only $800 instead of $4800. CVT owners: PLEASE change your cvt fluid every 30k miles!
@@Effonefiddygarage Unfortunately a lot of Subaru dealers will charge the customer over $3K to change the valve body.
Ivan at Pine Hollow Diagnostics did a tear down of a CVT for his wife's Murano several yrs ago. That 1 had some carnage.
It sure did. Was totally grenaded
@@mikefoehr235 And, I think like this one, it had nothing to do with the fact it was a CVT but rather how it was designed and built. I think that's the real problem with them: automatics had 50 years of development and CVTs had under 20. And are just a stepping stone to the mechatronic 6+ gear manuals you see now.
@@paulmoir4452 I will never own anything with a cvt
Saw at least 3 or 4 of these get replaced a week at the dealership but ive never seen inside one. Pretty awesome to see
A engineering marvel actually!
The quick answer is no, they should not all fail. The Subaru CVT offerings are generally very reliable except for the early years years and two specific transmission. Generally 2012-2017 is the trouble range, but not all cars. Most of them actually have issues with the solenoid pack rather than the transmission itself, though dealers usually just do a full replacement, which is far more expensive and not actually necessary. MrSubaru has covered these issue very well. I have a friend with a 2014 Crosstrek that the dealer said needed a new CVT. I asked him the codes and symptoms and told him to deny the service and have them replace the solenoid pack and replace the fluid instead. They did so and the car has been fine for many years now. Saved them over $4,000 IIRC. For the mechanically inclined, it's actually a relatively easy job. The early Ascent CVT also had its own issues which Subaru has admitted to, so people should be wary of that. There is an extended warranty and some kind of settlement. I believe the current iteration is improved. The other issue is the fluid service interval recommended, which Subaru, like many companies, definitely screwed up on. I believe they introduced it as a lifetime fluid, which was actually meant to be 100-120K miles, but owners should actually change the fluid every 40-60K miles ideally. I believe newer cars recommend a more regular interval rather than calling it lifetime, but I haven't actually checked the current recommendations. For the early CVT, a solenoid pack change and regular fluid service should keep them going for a very long time. For anything from the last 8 years or so, just a regular fluid service and it should be good to go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big CVT fan either and the old Subaru automatic was far more bulletproof and worry free. It's just also true that Subaru has had one of the better overall CVT records in the industry, sad as that may be.
I appreciate you of all people laying it out like that. Too many people think "CVT = BAD" When, like you say, the dealers exacerbate the belief by not directly solving the problem, just replacing it.
My parents have a '12 Outback they've owned since new and only recently at ~220,000km had the solenoid pack replaced, despite both the local dealer and an independent shop telling them "treat it like a beater, run it into the ground" which is a sin, because the car is actually quite nice. That generation of Legacy/Outback are fantastic automobiles.
I'm sure the issue was either the valve body or the TCM. Audi CVTs had a notorious TCM failure on their CVTs and you basically had to dismantle them to replace it. Ultimately there was a class action lawsuit with them and they had to replace all the CVTs under warranty up to a certain mileage and year.
Eric, this video is “ Fine “ er I mean a treat to watch !
I have never seen inside a CVT ……… till tonight !
Well Done 😊
Eric, I have no idea of where the @josephmorrone2660 came from as that is not my email address !
What a banger again. Love it
For a Subaru and it’s made for a AWD vehicle. This design actually looks simpler than the Nissan unit that I seen awhile back on Pine Hollow Auto.
We've had five Subarus with a CVT three of them well over 100,000 mi with no issues, but we do not listen to Subaru and follow the lifetime fluid BS. We changed that stuff every $30,000. Even towed extensively with our Ascent no issues. 120,000 mi
My subarus all last 10 plus years before I sell them all over 200k
Believe me, as a Subaru Master Tech, those chains do sometimes come apart. No drive or reverse coupled with an Intermediate Shaft Speed Sensor No Signal is a strong sign. Lately I’ve been seeing valve bodies fail and cause a similar situation, but no DTCs, the changeover solenoid or fluid circuit bleeds off pressure.
The rate of failure on these transmissions is relatively low, we just see more because Subaru is pumping cars out faster and faster every year
appears well built!
I'm always super happy when one of my friends gives me a scrap transmission...... soooo much aluminum!
Don’t tell Subaru owners that Subaru quality is no good anymore with cvt transmission and direct injection.
Besides head gaskets 🤣😂
@@guyh.4121The head gaskets are magnesium coated and deteriorate. You can get aftermarket quality without the coating and have no issues.
@@guyh.4121head gaskets were a problem before 2010 on mainly EJ253s. That's a long time ago. Let it go
CVT’s NEED to be maintained.
Dude the most reliable CVT on the market. This is an early generation with a few issues reason for extended warranty period. Mostly valve body and torque converter issues. Never a problem with internals. Everyone is going to direct injection because of government not sure what to tell you
Someone's been driving this around with mismatched tire sizes or a low tire. The clutch pack on the rear section of the transmission is for transferring torque to the rear wheels.
I have a Honda Civic I just bought, with a CVT, and I like it more than I thought I would. The Honda CVT is smooth and responsive, plus it doesn't do those fake shifts. It also gets very good gas mileage around town (like 31). I am hoping it doesn't blow up soon like this Subaru one did. I think the key to these transmissions is to change the fluid every 30 to 50k. I just changed mine, and hopefully it will keep going to at least 250k.
My wife had a 2017 Nissan Rogue. The CVT transmission went out at 50,000 miles while she was heading to her audiologist appointment 120 miles from home. When I got to where the car died, 60 miles away, the transmission wouldn’t even go into gear. It was replaced under warranty. The technician that replaced it said the inside of the transmission was in pieces. Later, due to a class action law suit, the second transmission get an extended warranty. My wife told me with about 80k on the new transmission that it was starting to shift funny. Rather than us risking it going bad after the warranty expired, for 7200 bucks, not counting labor, I traded it in for her 2018 Ford Explorer. I only wish I could have seen the old transmission when they removed it.
Nissan is one of the worst car companies for reliability with the Rogue being the worst of them by far. They are money pits at best.
@@BrandonFlint-ro2ns
Since Nissan belongs to Renault…
I couldn't believe how big that CVT was.
Well, it does have 3 outputs, the CVT section itself takes up quite a bit of real estate, and power flow has to turn 90 degrees at the ring and pinion to drive the front axles. That front differential carrier was mighty stout too! It's quite a bit bulkier than a standard front drive transaxle CVT, such as found in a Civic or various Nissans.
Subaru has been making CVTs for a very long time. One of the first major CVT applications for Honda was the 9th Gen Accord in 2013. They last as long as their conventional or manual transmission counterparts so it can be done....
I've had no problems at all with my 18 Accord with a CVT. So yes it can be done. Yes, correct maintenance and not abusing the car is important. News flash: cars need to be maintained!
The people on here harping about "all cvts are junk" just seem to be spouting off without any real facts, cause they heard from a friend of a friend that one failed. Yes I understand there's some customers that have had bad experiences with cvts, but what about the millions of cars out there driving around with cvts that are not having any problems at all?
I loved this, reminds me of when I was a kid tearing stuff apart to see what is inside without any plan to put back together.
Here goes a another "sealed: transmission. Most likely fluid and filter were never replaced
And that's why it failed at 100 grand. You gotta change that CVT oil every 20 to 30 grand.
Yes, if you choose to buy a Subaru with a CVT you will need to treat it like glass. Toyota’s on the other hand, you do not. There are always better choices. I just don’t understand why people buy crap with all of the info out there 2000-2010 head gaskets, 2010 and up CVTS. I’m sure someone’s grandmothers sisters best friend twice removed had a Subaru CVT that ran 250k miles no problems, but I would guess the vast majority don’t make it 100k.
i had a 2013 nissan rouge, legendary for transmission problems. i got rid of the car at 137k because i was tired of having issues with it. it seemed everything went wrong with that car. except the transmission, that was the one thing that never gave me any issues. actually suprised.
@@bradhaines3142
Did you change the CVT fluid earlier than OEM recommendation/at all?
@@JohnSmith-pl2bk i bought it at 65k, no idea what they did before, changed the fluid at around 100k for giggles. it looked and smelled fine but was cheap to do so seemed worth it. not actually sure what OEM recommended to be honest, i just know 30-50k is a good change interval
Sold my forester with 77k because of overheating transmission light illuminating going up hlls, followed maintenance schedule from dealer faithfully, AC also had intermittent problems so saw the handwriting on the wall and traded it in
Most likely, maintenance schedule from the dealer didn't include any transmission service
@@gianfrancoaGood grief, if a transmission has only 77k miles on it and it’s already failing, it’s a junk design. In today’s world someone should be able to go 75k miles without a transmission service and not have to worry about the thing overheating so early.
I had a 2007 scion tc. I replaced the Trans oil every 50k. That car lasted forever. Doing maintenance is what smart people do. Blaming engineers is what......
@@RipliWitani Toyota transmissions are in a totally different ball park. Aisin is the gold standard and everything else is mediocrity at best. I have seen Toyota transmissions go 300k miles without ever a fluid change. Try that with a Subaru.
I have had to work on those transmissions. The common issue is that the valve body has an issue that causes the torque converter cylonoid to stick. The simple fix is to get a new Subaru value body and install it. The transmission isn't junk.
Cool to see the inside of this. We own a Forester 2023 automatic.
And now for something completely different.
CVTs would last longer on Mars. Gravity is lower, so the strain on them is lessened, and they wouldn't fail as easily.
What weight oil to use on Mars? Can't find it in the manual.
When human civilization conquers Mars, there will be a Mars only design, thinned down to last just over warranty. There will be a blackmarket of "for use on Earth", to replace the flaky Mars versions, but DRM will make sure you cannot use them, so a community of hackers will show up to fix the limitations manufacturers want to impose.
And tuna wont catch on fire in the microwave because there's no oxygen, AFAK.
CVT in Honda fit are perfect, but in CRV are trash. CVT hate heavy cars with AWD.
@GF-mf7ml They're always undersized to save money. The same CVT goes in the Nissan Versa and the Mitsubishi Mirage. They fail like crazy in the Versa and last very well in the Mirage. Why? The power/weight for the Mirage is all the thing can handle long-term. A bit more torque and weight and kaboom.
Awesome video! You can how that there put together! You also see why it fails in design too!
I cherish these videos.
So, basically they've devolved into an oversized go-kart transmission.
I'm keeping my old Tahoe until one of us dies.
and if the tahoe dies first, new 5.3 or 4lslippy and it's good to go for another 10 years and 300k miles, hopefully, if you take care of it.
When they built cvt's at the batavia ford plant they called the pulleys variators.
I thought Jatco built Ford's CVTs?
@@ohger1 Nope, that one was a ZF (German) unit. Ford built them here in the US but it was a ZF design.
@@lustfulvengance Thanks.
@@lustfulvengance Were they any good? I avoided buying a really nice Freestyle because it had a CVT.
@@ohger1 Evidently these were quite reliable as long as they were serviced regularly, ZF is not known for building subpar transmissions. The Ford freestyle also had this transmission and I have personally driven those and they drove quite nicely.
I tore one down to replace the differential carrier bearings, changed the filters during the rebuild.
I changed my fluid on my Subaru every 45k and use Amsoil and no problems so far. Purr like a kitten.
In the powersports world we call those things "sheaves" where the belt rides up and down. It looks to me like that thing was built to be the cheapest thing possible with zero regard to serviceability. Pretty sure they were designed to be throw-away from the start. Cheaper to make and sell, way more expensive to own in the long run.
These transmissions were the first version on Subaru CVTs. Their issues were torque converter unintended lockup and valve body's. Internals on Subaru CVTs rarely break without abuse. And for the haters if they were junk they'd be more in demand.
Subarus have been marketed as light off road vehicles. What constitutes abuse?
To be fair, they are in very high demand.
@@I_Do_Cars Subaru dealerships aren't rebuilding brand new 10 speeds like Chevy and Ford though.
@@0HOON0 abuse is using something outside it's designed parameters! Light off-road shouldn't be stressful to a Subaru.
@@bigdaddymak1439 of course they aren’t. We aren’t talking about those. What a strange retort.