Wait, I'm where!?! Gets told I wound up in the psych ward! Oh, "That club meeting was down the hall!" Desk staff shouts back, "Basically the same thing walking in here...isn't it!?!" LOL!
A consultant misdiagnosed my son and accused me of child abuse years ago, he had perticcial hemmorages and couldn't walk on his left leg. I begged one of the nurses to bring another doctor, because he was shouting at me and frightening my son. Long story short. My son had stage 4 neuroblastoma with 3 masses in his stomach and wrapped around his spine, and in his left leg. He still swore he had done nothing wrong. He was the epitome of incompetence.
I have been an NP for twenty years. My message to any student that I have precepted has been you need to recognize what you don’t know.... it will keep you and your patient safe! Glad to hear I was giving sound advice!! Always appreciate your videos!!
All the Hospitalist I work with think they don’t need a pulmonologist unless the patient is on a ventilator. So I keep getting their patients that have been mistreated instead of having an expert see them for COMPLICATED lung problems. Now they’re on the ventilator un/necessarily.
Some of the pulmonologists I, a hospitalist, have worked with, can recognize that some patients were undermanaged while others were well managed and still crashed, vs other pulm docs think everyone who crashed was mismanaged because they were not involved. I once saw a pulmonologist calmly walk out of my patient's room and leave the unit to continue rounds, and I went in to find him in status asthmaticus, and had to call a rapid response, the dude was hypercapnic and tiring out and had to be intubated.
During the first and second year of CRNA school, I felt like I had learned so much and become so capable with my anesthetic skills that there couldn't be much else to know. As I'm finishing up my third year and about to graduate with my doctorate and go into independent practice I realize that there is always so much more to learn. I'm confident in what I know and my ability to provide full-service high-quality anesthesia for my patients but I'm aware I will be a lifelong learner.
Thanks Doc! This video just helped with my comfort level. Tomorrow will be my first day on a hospital unit as an RN and after watching this, I feel better not knowing something and you've just given me the drive to learn more. Thank you thank you THANK YOU!!! :)
This is spot on. Thanks for sharing. As an NP I try everyday to learn more and I am very cognizant of what I dont know. I consult other providers if something walks in my clinic and I haven't seen it before, first I do some research to see if I can do something within my scope. If I find I can't, I contact a MD that I have built relationships with and consult with them and refer out if they direct me. I was lucky to have preceptors that pushed me, groomed me and loved to teach.
doub whopper yeah, peer review has its problems (look at the mess the Wakefield paper created), but thankfully other scientists questioned what was published in a more stringent fashion than the peer review gave, culminating in publication retraction (and a lifetime of major embarrassment forever following everyone involved). I wouldn’t call the whole peer review process “corrupt”, but like all human enterprises, there’s bound to be mistakes. To say that the whole peer review process has “proven time and time again as corrupt” is a quite broad accusation, very misleading, and does a great disservice to the myriad of sound publications, and their authors and contributors. Perhaps you would like to elaborate on your comment? To be fair, we may be approaching this from different aspects...(eg we’re talking about a pizza, but I’m about the crust, and you’re about the toppings) Also, nothing is ever “proven” - evidence is merely demonstrated.
So you doubt that two plus two equals 4? Stupid people may never doubt something. Smart people, however, understand when there's no room for doubt. If you'd like a more modern example, look up the flat earth "debate". We have no reason to doubt a roundish earth, have all the evidence to prove its round, and even more evidence to disprove its flat. Why would a smart person doubt it? (Rhetorical - they wouldnt) If you never had the topic come up, then maybe there's some room to doubt or question it. But once its learned, that question is no longer necessary. Smart people understand this
The problem I have found is that most doctors don't spend the time to understand the patient's problem and many times they give bad advice. I have saved myself surgery by ignoring bad doctor's orders and following online information.
Huh? What if ask what 2 plus 2 equals? And you say 4. Then i ask why 2+2=4, and you show your work...what do i ask next? Repetitive questioning seems to be a waste of time here...which would in turn make me less than smart
ZDogg, I am a new NP and completely agree with you on the inconsistency with NP education. My NP education made me confident in what I do know and acutely aware of what I don’t know. Thanks for the video, I’m going to keep learning and try to learn something new everyday and be better than I was yesterday.
I've worked with many that really believed they knew everything about whatever it was we were dealing with. I myself always felt unintelligent compared to others I worked with because I knew I didn't know as much as I wanted to.
Same! I often avoided even stepping into debates because even when I felt like I had a good argument, I would always think "but there's probably some special argument they have all lined up in response, anyway, so they would probably just win and I'd feel more stupid and embarrassed without doing anything worthwhile in the end"
I have been a Nurse for 30 years. Some days, after all that time in the medical field I really feel like I know very little about the Big Picture, in reference to Nursing, Medicine, and Health Care. I depend on common sense, knowledge based research and Health Care Professionals that have forgotten more than I will ever ever know ! I have lost life long friendships, because people have "done their research" and have the hubris to believe they know more than Doctors and Scientists. It is so frustrating and dangerous. The Dunning Kruger effect is rampant and ubiquitous in the world. Very scary.
Thank you for explaining this so well! I see this so much in my own life. When I dive deeper into any subject-I realize that my knowledge barely scratches the surface. I’ve been an elementary school teacher for 22 years and I am constantly learning new things. In fact, my confidence level is probably lower than it should be; however, it keeps me open to constantly learning. It’s bizarre when I see a colleague who thinks she knows it all and has nothing else to learn. I think a lot of us noticed the Dunning-Kruger effect with the onset of the pandemic. Everyone was suddenly an expert on this NEW virus. So few people (on social media, at least), would say, “I just don’t know.”
I've been on both sides of this equation, too. It's really quite a pain to find your blindspots when you know that you're missing something, yet asking someone else only leads to them having a little power trip. So, then you must go on some trek to the stars... we'll call it a star... voyage...... to find what you're missing.
I think this is spot on. I think the same happens as you go through medical school: you think you know a lot, but the further you get, the more you realize how much you don't know and feel like less of an expert
I totally suffer from “imposter syndrome”. 15 years into my nursing career....it’s hard not to look at all the areas I think I suck at. At the same time, i guess it’s good to know that I don’t know it all 🤷🏻♀️
Jeanne Prieto-Davis not imposter syndrome. Poor education. It was training on the job. I tried to learn everything and was the first to volunteer. Catheter insertion . check. Starting I.v.’s. Check. Holding infants...that hurt so much...cocaine withdrawl, alcohol withdrawl, hydrocephalus, and the one in a cage that I will never forget, and a tiny 1 1/4 pound infant to wash with a cotton ball in a plastic dish, under heat lamps. Parents didn’t show up. No one held these little ones. Nurse teacher wanted me to be in pediatrics, doctors wanted me in open heart surgery. Could not stand smell burning flesh from cauterizer. Could not bear pain from infants and children with no one there for them. Went through so much, that I could not cry, let alone feel...way to protect myself from the horror show. Had a doctor slam a chart closed, turn to me and say, If I wasn’t expecting a child, if I had any chance with you, I would divorce my wife now. What? Had another instance, getting meds ready for patients, notice three nurses gathered at the end of the hall. Not a confrontational person, but what? I walked down and told them, seems like you are looking my way and talking about me. One nurse says, yes, Dr so and so was here. I asked so? Next nurse says, “he has no patient’s here”. So, I said okay, why was he here? Last one said, “because of you”. I said me? Well, not interested. Should have seen their faces. , been down the halls in a hospital helping, idiot doctors I have encountered...always up to me! Had to tell a women in ICu, doctor said either be on a ventilator, or have this fan over an ice bucket. If you choose the ventillator, he is saying, your lungs may not ever be strong enough without it. Another woman, had CHF. I spoke to her Doc as her condition deteriorated Doc saying, she cannot recover. . The doctor left it up to me to call all of her nine children to come(many states). Got that done. These cases were doctors not doing their duty. Hospitals are run by nurses. We have a burden known to none. Always short staffed and blamed for things not in our control. Many stories. I worked in ICU’s , other areas not so well known units. Was asked to be a bayflight nurse...doctor’s asked. Said no, if my children need me, I have to be there for them. And yes, had stupid, ugly doctors chasing me until I stood up and said “you are a complete asshole, , get away from me, one did, one laughed. Had one chase me out of the hospital screaming that I am making a mistake. Oh dear God, help these lost people. So, did you make a wrong decision? No! You are saved not to go through this mess.
Based on the title, was all set to sanctimoniously comment that this effect occurs in everyone. Now I'm descending into a tailspin of self-reflection. Good work!
hey zdog - here is a little exercise for you. First - I am not an anti-vaxer. My kids had all their vaccinations. However, i've been listening to this debate from sidelines (while doing other medical protocol research) I took a chart of the growth of generic pharma from india (market research chart) and overlaid it with a chart from the CDC of the growth of autism in the US. They were similar. Quality control is crap for generics out of india and base ingredients are shipped to india from china (would you eat FOOD manufactured like this?) Read the main stream news for this info on foreign manufactured generics - especially RANBAXY see nytimes article "FLIES TO NUMEROUS TO COUNT" in describing the plants manufacturing our generics. I dont think Ranbaxy ever got a chance to manufacture vaccines (did put in applications though, I think) but other Indian pharma plants are. Ranbaxy is how I stumbled across the horrors of fraud in manufacturing generics overseas - I knew a person harmed by a generic (very clear - only drug they were taking and she was treated like she was crazy - but now all the stories are out and she still had the bottle with the Ranbaxy label so 100% clear what happened here). There is NO MONEY IN IT FOR HER - YOU CANT SUE A GENERIC DRUG MANUFACTURER - so no reason to make this shit up. So just do what I did - if there is a quality control issue then there would be a disparity in reactions from these vaccines depending on the clout you have to demand quality - and you being in the healthcare industry would have that clout so your kids are not at risk. So don't knock everyone that says their child experienced a bad reaction - they are getting beat up enough. Do seek out the charts I looked up, read the generic manufacturing fraud news, and then run the little exercise that I did - it took 30 minutes at most. We need to clear up drug manufacturing already - and we need to stop putting down patients experiences as a non event. I recently found out that the FDA doesn't even allow drug manufacturers to rank patient adverse reaction reports high enough to even matter - what is up with all the patient shaming? Who among us can claim to be an immunologist? But when you see bad things happening you do need to speak up even if someone or many are going to call you crazy.
I believe the CDC encourages providers to report any adverse effect that happened to anyone receiving a vaccine even if it isn’t clear that reaction was caused by the vaccine itself. I would think this is a way for them to keep track of a particular vaccine/ manufacturer/ lot/ etc to identify if they were prone to more causes of adverse reactions etc. I also believe there are reactions that are deemed typical? So if you get the flu shot it is not uncommon to have flu like symptoms for 24 hours, this is the body reacting to the vaccine because it’s convinced it’s fighting an infection that isn’t there. My guess would be that this would explain some of the adverse reactions people state, “I never got the flu until I got the flu shot”, “I got a flu shot and it gave me the flu” etc. when I talk to friends I often hear them say “I know the generic is the same but it doesn’t work as well for me” which is puzzling as they should be an exact copy of the same drug, so it makes you wonder if there is some other psychological effect at play? Do people who take generic drugs expect a poor response or an adverse reaction because it’s a generic and then are quick to blame or report a common known side effect as an adverse reaction? There are so many variables involved, it’s mind boggling.
@@ffmcmav40 It's a nice excuse to say the patients are making up symptoms because they are prejudice against generics. But do YOU actually know even one person that is suspicious of generics? All people think about is getting the best price. My daughter DID get sick on a generic but at the time I just thought she was specifically sensitive to a filler in it. It was many years later when I discovered the story of generics manufacturing fraud and reconstructed the story all the was back. Generics and name brands are NOT the same. The generics manufacturer has to reverse engineer the formula, they are NOT given the actual formula, so they are NEVER identical. As a matter of fact, Ranbaxy was caught in their fraudulent activities because their manufacturing data matched exactly to the name brand drug and this is a RED FLAG FOR FRAUD because it really can never happen if the data is real. Patients usually do not make up symptoms, but when they have them they are rarely listened to. I've been reading my daughter's records and I can see that the practice is NOT to write down adverse reactions in the medical records.... Here is a recent Stanford research publication on the life threatening problem of doctors not charting adverse reactions www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(18)32598-3/fulltext . Written as if it's a not life- threatening disaster?!? Here is another article that is more critical www.hormonesmatter.com/epidemic-silence-adverse-drug-reactions/ But if doctors are refusing to even CHART adverse reactions they certainly are not reporting them anywhere... This is a big problem and it's life threatening and it means we actually do NOT know how dangerous any drug is even if it is manufactured safely and properly. The fact that doctors refuse to recognize adverse reactions means that they are not actually living up to the promise that they are "weighing the benefits vs the RISKS" - they appear to be ignoring the risks and pretending that suffering patients are all just nuts...THIS IS NOT TRUE OF ALL DOCTORS! but all of my daughter's doctors are guilty. Being a doctor is a difficult job and how can anyone tell what drug is causing what when 5 to 10 meds have been prescribed?!? impossible it really has become such a god awful mess, our current healthcare "system" more like a healthcare cluster. Thanks for writing to me though. I wish you health and joy.
One time I overlayed autism rates and organic food sales graphs, they aligned perfectly. So by the same logic you used here, organic food causes autism.
jessicabiel This week I went to Sacramento to talk to legislators in California about a proposed bill. I am not against vaccinations - I support children getting vaccinations and I also support families having the right to make educated medical decisions for their children alongside their physicians. My concern with #SB276 is solely regarding medical exemptions. My dearest friends have a child with a medical condition that warrants an exemption from vaccinations, and should this bill pass, it would greatly affect their family’s ability to care for their child in this state. That’s why I spoke to legislators and argued against this bill. Not because I don’t believe in vaccinations, but because I believe in giving doctors and the families they treat the ability to decide what’s best for their patients and the ability to provide that treatment. I encourage everyone to read more on this issue and to learn about the intricacies of #SB276. Thank you to everyone who met with me this week to engage in this important discussion! JUNE 13, 2019
Can you address, in one of your videos, the reality of vaccine injury? I'm not talking autism, but actual vaccine injury that is documented as such. I've been all over the place in vaccines because I have a medically complex kiddo. We were advised for ten years not to vaccinate because of this, but recently he got the MMR because of a measles outbreak in our area, and the team felt his risk of death from measles was greater than that of risk from vaccine. He did get a rash and experience some terrible seizures requiring treatment. But he came through ok, and I'm glad we did it because measles marches on. However...I'm not signing up for any more just yet. I think one of the frustrations of anti-vaxxers, autism aside, is that injury is real, does happen, and is minimized by the medical community as if it doesn't have lifelong implications for those affected.
Great points! Malcom Gladwell expands on this concept in his book David and Goliath. He would make a great guest on your show. Thank you for clarifying the perspective on NPs to an older segment.
I live in an area where a hospital previously owned by the county was sold to a private entity and this hospital group is trying to get a stranglehold on the medical network. They've libeled and slandered Dr's who wouldn't join the network to the point these docs left (with very large sums of money from lawsuits too), they were the most skilled and qualified individuals in their fields of expertise. The Dr's who stayed have this problem where they are so far behind in their knowledge, sometimes 20-30 years behind, and yet they claim to know everything. It's so problematic that PTs and NPs recommend driving to a different state to see specialists. It's been an ongoing problem for the last five+ years. Now new Dr's are trickling in and are screaming that these Dr's should know something about diabetes management, ortho, allergies, and on and on. I'm curious to see if these new Dr's will stick around or if they'll move north and join a different network.
As Charles Darwin said: "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
With a 22 year career as a paramedic, I can attest to the average person trying to tell me how to do my job after checking their symptoms online. For example, we got called to a stroke my last shift. I work in a rural area so we put a helicopter on standby. We get on scene and the patient is complaining of a headache. Vitals all normal, no other S/S of a stroke. Could he be having a stroke? Sure. But we cancelled the helicopter and transported him by ground. The patient's wife lost her mind. She wanted us to fly him based on 3 minutes perusing webmd. Also, my favorite sayimg says it all: "Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt'.
Totally! I'm a qualified, experienced emergency operating theatres ODP, but I'm also unwell right now. I can't find decent help. I’m not stupid! I know what. I need! I'm going to have to get well, & give it to others! 🤗
In an MR technologist working to get my MRSO training. I just took the test last week and hoo buddy, am I feeling the imposter syndrome hard core. I definitely know how much I dont know and it's scary. Ii miss that feeling that I knew what I was talking about.
Leads to the learning curve where it is a steep rise from apprentice to master and then a slight rise after master and those little micro bits of knowledge after you know everything are hard fought for and in professions like mine they tend to be a closely guarded secret. Finding those little bits of information let you know that no matter how much you know there is always something you don't know that you don't know about.
@@mantheory6432 Skill trades. I just thirst for knowledge. The learning curve is the same for any profession though. Huge spike in the first 10,000 hours from knowing nothing to leveling off on a plateau and those tiny bits of information/tips/tricks are what separates you from the rest of the pack. Some guard that little knowledge like gold.
I used to work for a guy who was a textbook example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. He lived at the peak of mount stupid. Where as I and most of my colleagues dwelt in the valley of despair. (Take a look at the DK graph) He believed he knew everything. He shouted down his employees. These were people who he'd hired because they were experts in a field. But he always knew more than them of course. Meanwhile, when talking to him he was so confident that you think to yourself, "Maybe I'm wrong. He sounds like he knows what he's doing." Then he'd say something so monumentally ignorant that you realise that he has no idea what he's talking about. But of course you couldn't correct him. You'd get shouted at for being stupid. Strangely enough, the company went through a phase of losing large numbers of staff. About 20% of the technical staff in the space of a couple of months... including me. It's not worth putting up with that sort of boss induced stress.
"There are known knowns. There are known unknowns...." Uncle United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Yeah, I know. Meta cognition extraordinaire.
In my opinion step one should be, " learn humility in life". Before starting any endeavor you should learn humility first. The fact is no matter how much you know you will never know everything. This then can merge with step three. Even when you think you know, you still could be wrong. Being open to this fact can will carry you through expertise to the point of being a visionary and leader.
The thing I hate most about dunning-kruger, as a physician, is that unfortunately I have zero confidence even in subjects for which I have a high amount of education, because I know how easy it is to be wrong
Jessica Biel graduated from Tufts University, so I'm guessing she passed HS biology. And apparently did not oppose vaccines, but the state authority over doctor's authority - the state of CA stepping between doctor and patient. Her take was misguided in my opinion, but she does not say she's an anti vaxxer.
It goes without saying that David Dunning and Justin Kruger know that a lot of the test subjects who had gotten monumentally low scores, but had tremendously overestimated their scores were way below average in intelligence, but did David Dunning or Justin Kruger ever say so in no uncertain terms or document this in writing in no uncertain terms.
Don't know what we don't know! My dad had a series of interesting symptoms, a general physician said UTI. After a few weeks of antibiotics and no change in symptoms, he went to a urologist. The urologist took one look at the medications my dad had been taking for years for diabetes and said my dad most likely had bladder cancer. He's now cancer (and bladder) free. Doesn't blame the first doc, but uses it as a good lesson: go see a specialist, if you can
As a scientist, we are always questioning each other’s experiments, conjectures made from the interpretation of the results/data, and where the overall discussion is going. This is an issue for all levels of learning - hell, our lab just got done hosting a visiting research scientist who was a total mess. Be open to the idea that you, much like Jon Snow, know nothing.
When I took foster care classes a huge lesson was the fact we don't correct children. This happens to become a domino effect on our society. That everyone gets a trophy is harmful according to study's.
@0:59: In a group of 100 people where 90 of them have $1000 dollars and 10 have no money, the average is $900, so 90% of them have more than the average amount of money.
It is not correct to say that 80% of people being "above average" is statistically impossible, unless you are assuming a symmetrical distribution. In the driving example, some people are much worse than average...
Point taken on what the DK effect actually is. All the Jessica Biel blows are unnecessary though. To dismiss her and millions of others might make u fall victim to the very same DK effect as well.
Great video! I have, however, got one criticism and one comment. Criticism: Jessica Biel explicitly said that she is not anti-vaccine, she's just against compulsory vaccination. Comment: for all you fellow lay-people out there who are adamantly in favor of vaccines, keep in mind that the Dunning-Kruger effect can still apply to you! Don't do 20 mi utes of internet reading where you read "vaccines are safe and effective, they eradicated polio, etc..." and be like "I'm an expert, now!." You still have a lot more to learn, too.
...and this is the reason humanity is screwed - the modern internet/media only amplifies this effect and connects the morons with each other, who then elect morons who ruin it for the rest of us. Advice for parents: stop telling kids they’re awesome at everything. Start there.
So...is this why physicians and dietitians are so combative when discussing low carb./high fat eating plans? I’ve even heard that some physicians confuse ketosis is with diabetic ketoacidosis and immediately assume that low carb diets are dangerous.
All people are like that! Everyone is like that in some area. I know many physicians that are not that well versed in some of their areas of what should be their expertise. It is a human flaw that no one escapes.
![Why Stupid People Think They're Smart [The Dunning-Kruger Effect]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TT81fe2IobI/mqdefault.jpg)
First Rule of Dunning-Kruger Club: You Don't Know You're IN the Dunning-Kruger Club.
Ain't that a bitch? haha
Wait, I'm where!?! Gets told I wound up in the psych ward! Oh, "That club meeting was down the hall!" Desk staff shouts back, "Basically the same thing walking in here...isn't it!?!" LOL!
Second Rule of Dunning-Kruger Club: You Don't Know You're IN the Dunning-Kruger Club.
Yeah and Second Rule: You Dont Know the First Rule
Scott Stoner love it!!!
A consultant misdiagnosed my son and accused me of child abuse years ago, he had perticcial hemmorages and couldn't walk on his left leg. I begged one of the nurses to bring another doctor, because he was shouting at me and frightening my son. Long story short. My son had stage 4 neuroblastoma with 3 masses in his stomach and wrapped around his spine, and in his left leg. He still swore he had done nothing wrong. He was the epitome of incompetence.
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Ancient wisdom.
Not really ancient. Alexander Pope (1688 - 1744)
I have been an NP for twenty years. My message to any student that I have precepted has been you need to recognize what you don’t know.... it will keep you and your patient safe! Glad to hear I was giving sound advice!! Always appreciate your videos!!
Whew, finally found the answer to a question on self-doubt that I've been struggling with for quite some time. Many thanks.
I always tell people the more I learn the more I realize I don't know.
That's the first signs of intelligence.
JUST LIKE EARTH BEING FLAT!
Carol - that's a wonderfull quote!
I'm probably one of the most knowledgeable people on the Dunning-Kruger effect.
ha ha ha ha
I just watched this video. That makes me an expert as well!
OMG! I don't usually look to ur content for mindset but this is spot on for more than medicine! ♥️♥️♥️♥️
Katy Mullaney agree! He rules
All the Hospitalist I work with think they don’t need a pulmonologist unless the patient is on a ventilator. So I keep getting their patients that have been mistreated instead of having an expert see them for COMPLICATED lung problems. Now they’re on the ventilator un/necessarily.
Some of the pulmonologists I, a hospitalist, have worked with, can recognize that some patients were undermanaged while others were well managed and still crashed, vs other pulm docs think everyone who crashed was mismanaged because they were not involved. I once saw a pulmonologist calmly walk out of my patient's room and leave the unit to continue rounds, and I went in to find him in status asthmaticus, and had to call a rapid response, the dude was hypercapnic and tiring out and had to be intubated.
This video aged so well and this message is so needed today.
During the first and second year of CRNA school, I felt like I had learned so much and become so capable with my anesthetic skills that there couldn't be much else to know. As I'm finishing up my third year and about to graduate with my doctorate and go into independent practice I realize that there is always so much more to learn. I'm confident in what I know and my ability to provide full-service high-quality anesthesia for my patients but I'm aware I will be a lifelong learner.
Thanks Doc! This video just helped with my comfort level. Tomorrow will be my first day on a hospital unit as an RN and after watching this, I feel better not knowing something and you've just given me the drive to learn more. Thank you thank you THANK YOU!!! :)
This is spot on. Thanks for sharing. As an NP I try everyday to learn more and I am very cognizant of what I dont know. I consult other providers if something walks in my clinic and I haven't seen it before, first I do some research to see if I can do something within my scope. If I find I can't, I contact a MD that I have built relationships with and consult with them and refer out if they direct me. I was lucky to have preceptors that pushed me, groomed me and loved to teach.
...that's the problem: Stupid people never doubt, smart people always doubt...! :-(
Packless1 no they never question it because they think they are always right and the are confident about it
Smart people never call other people stupid.
As a scientist, yes!!! We’re always questioning our interpretation of our results - which is why we have peer review...
doub whopper yeah, peer review has its problems (look at the mess the Wakefield paper created), but thankfully other scientists questioned what was published in a more stringent fashion than the peer review gave, culminating in publication retraction (and a lifetime of major embarrassment forever following everyone involved). I wouldn’t call the whole peer review process “corrupt”, but like all human enterprises, there’s bound to be mistakes. To say that the whole peer review process has “proven time and time again as corrupt” is a quite broad accusation, very misleading, and does a great disservice to the myriad of sound publications, and their authors and contributors. Perhaps you would like to elaborate on your comment? To be fair, we may be approaching this from different aspects...(eg we’re talking about a pizza, but I’m about the crust, and you’re about the toppings)
Also, nothing is ever “proven” - evidence is merely demonstrated.
So you doubt that two plus two equals 4? Stupid people may never doubt something. Smart people, however, understand when there's no room for doubt. If you'd like a more modern example, look up the flat earth "debate". We have no reason to doubt a roundish earth, have all the evidence to prove its round, and even more evidence to disprove its flat. Why would a smart person doubt it? (Rhetorical - they wouldnt) If you never had the topic come up, then maybe there's some room to doubt or question it. But once its learned, that question is no longer necessary. Smart people understand this
The problem I have found is that most doctors don't spend the time to understand the patient's problem and many times they give bad advice. I have saved myself surgery by ignoring bad doctor's orders and following online information.
It is hard to find people who are very confident and actaully know what they are talking about.
Thanks for this well-prepared lesson 😇
Beautifully said.
Now, I am an expert in the Dunning-Kruger effect and will use it every time I argue 👍
Wow! This is the best... spot-on "Dunning-Kruger effect" explanation that I've seen... Thank you!
Always ask more questions for every answer you get.
Huh? What if ask what 2 plus 2 equals? And you say 4. Then i ask why 2+2=4, and you show your work...what do i ask next? Repetitive questioning seems to be a waste of time here...which would in turn make me less than smart
ZDogg,
I am a new NP and completely agree with you on the inconsistency with NP education. My NP education made me confident in what I do know and acutely aware of what I don’t know. Thanks for the video, I’m going to keep learning and try to learn something new everyday and be better than I was yesterday.
I've worked with many that really believed they knew everything about whatever it was we were dealing with. I myself always felt unintelligent compared to others I worked with because I knew I didn't know as much as I wanted to.
Same! I often avoided even stepping into debates because even when I felt like I had a good argument, I would always think "but there's probably some special argument they have all lined up in response, anyway, so they would probably just win and I'd feel more stupid and embarrassed without doing anything worthwhile in the end"
I have been a Nurse for 30 years. Some days, after all that time in the medical field I really feel like I know very little about the Big Picture, in reference to Nursing, Medicine, and Health Care. I depend on common sense, knowledge based research and Health Care Professionals that have forgotten more than I will ever ever know ! I have lost life long friendships, because people have "done their research" and have the hubris to believe they know more than Doctors and Scientists. It is so frustrating and dangerous. The Dunning Kruger effect is rampant and ubiquitous in the world. Very scary.
Thank you for explaining this so well! I see this so much in my own life. When I dive deeper into any subject-I realize that my knowledge barely scratches the surface. I’ve been an elementary school teacher for 22 years and I am constantly learning new things. In fact, my confidence level is probably lower than it should be; however, it keeps me open to constantly learning. It’s bizarre when I see a colleague who thinks she knows it all and has nothing else to learn. I think a lot of us noticed the Dunning-Kruger effect with the onset of the pandemic. Everyone was suddenly an expert on this NEW virus. So few people (on social media, at least), would say, “I just don’t know.”
I've been on both sides of this equation, too. It's really quite a pain to find your blindspots when you know that you're missing something, yet asking someone else only leads to them having a little power trip. So, then you must go on some trek to the stars... we'll call it a star... voyage...... to find what you're missing.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a scary thing
I think this is spot on. I think the same happens as you go through medical school: you think you know a lot, but the further you get, the more you realize how much you don't know and feel like less of an expert
I totally suffer from “imposter syndrome”. 15 years into my nursing career....it’s hard not to look at all the areas I think I suck at. At the same time, i guess it’s good to know that I don’t know it all 🤷🏻♀️
Jeanne Prieto-Davis not imposter syndrome. Poor education. It was training on the job. I tried to learn everything and was the first to volunteer. Catheter insertion . check. Starting I.v.’s. Check. Holding infants...that hurt so much...cocaine withdrawl, alcohol withdrawl, hydrocephalus, and the one in a cage that I will never forget, and a tiny 1 1/4 pound infant to wash with a cotton ball in a plastic dish, under heat lamps. Parents didn’t show up. No one held these little ones. Nurse teacher wanted me to be in pediatrics, doctors wanted me in open heart surgery. Could not stand smell burning flesh from cauterizer.
Could not bear pain from infants and children with no one there for them. Went through so much, that I could not cry, let alone feel...way to protect myself from the horror show. Had a doctor slam a chart closed, turn to me and say, If I wasn’t expecting a child, if I had any chance with you, I would divorce my wife now. What? Had another instance, getting meds ready for patients, notice three nurses gathered at the end of the hall. Not a confrontational person, but what? I walked down and told them, seems like you are looking my way and talking about me. One nurse says, yes, Dr so and so was here. I asked so? Next nurse says, “he has no patient’s here”. So, I said okay, why was he here? Last one said, “because of you”. I said me? Well, not interested. Should have seen their faces. , been down the halls in a hospital helping, idiot doctors I have encountered...always up to me! Had to tell a women in ICu, doctor said either be on a ventilator, or have this fan over an ice bucket. If you choose the ventillator, he is saying, your lungs may not ever be strong enough without it. Another woman, had CHF.
I spoke to her Doc as her condition deteriorated Doc saying, she cannot recover. . The doctor left it up to me to call all of her nine children to come(many states). Got that done. These cases were doctors not doing their duty. Hospitals are run by nurses. We have a burden known to none. Always short staffed and blamed for things not in our control. Many stories. I worked in ICU’s , other areas not so well known units. Was asked to be a bayflight nurse...doctor’s asked.
Said no, if my children need me, I have to be there for them. And yes, had stupid, ugly doctors chasing me until I stood up and said “you are a complete asshole, , get away from me, one did, one laughed. Had one chase me out of the hospital screaming that I am making a mistake. Oh dear God, help these lost people. So, did you make a wrong decision? No! You are saved not to go through this mess.
Good analysis of physician vs nurse practitioner.
Yep I tried to tell my doctor and PA it was my gallbladder and they wouldn’t listen
Based on the title, was all set to sanctimoniously comment that this effect occurs in everyone. Now I'm descending into a tailspin of self-reflection. Good work!
hey zdog - here is a little exercise for you. First - I am not an anti-vaxer. My kids had all their vaccinations. However, i've been listening to this debate from sidelines (while doing other medical protocol research) I took a chart of the growth of generic pharma from india (market research chart) and overlaid it with a chart from the CDC of the growth of autism in the US. They were similar. Quality control is crap for generics out of india and base ingredients are shipped to india from china (would you eat FOOD manufactured like this?) Read the main stream news for this info on foreign manufactured generics - especially RANBAXY see nytimes article "FLIES TO NUMEROUS TO COUNT" in describing the plants manufacturing our generics. I dont think Ranbaxy ever got a chance to manufacture vaccines (did put in applications though, I think) but other Indian pharma plants are. Ranbaxy is how I stumbled across the horrors of fraud in manufacturing generics overseas - I knew a person harmed by a generic (very clear - only drug they were taking and she was treated like she was crazy - but now all the stories are out and she still had the bottle with the Ranbaxy label so 100% clear what happened here). There is NO MONEY IN IT FOR HER - YOU CANT SUE A GENERIC DRUG MANUFACTURER - so no reason to make this shit up. So just do what I did - if there is a quality control issue then there would be a disparity in reactions from these vaccines depending on the clout you have to demand quality - and you being in the healthcare industry would have that clout so your kids are not at risk. So don't knock everyone that says their child experienced a bad reaction - they are getting beat up enough. Do seek out the charts I looked up, read the generic manufacturing fraud news, and then run the little exercise that I did - it took 30 minutes at most. We need to clear up drug manufacturing already - and we need to stop putting down patients experiences as a non event. I recently found out that the FDA doesn't even allow drug manufacturers to rank patient adverse reaction reports high enough to even matter - what is up with all the patient shaming? Who among us can claim to be an immunologist? But when you see bad things happening you do need to speak up even if someone or many are going to call you crazy.
I believe the CDC encourages providers to report any adverse effect that happened to anyone receiving a vaccine even if it isn’t clear that reaction was caused by the vaccine itself. I would think this is a way for them to keep track of a particular vaccine/ manufacturer/ lot/ etc to identify if they were prone to more causes of adverse reactions etc. I also believe there are reactions that are deemed typical? So if you get the flu shot it is not uncommon to have flu like symptoms for 24 hours, this is the body reacting to the vaccine because it’s convinced it’s fighting an infection that isn’t there. My guess would be that this would explain some of the adverse reactions people state, “I never got the flu until I got the flu shot”, “I got a flu shot and it gave me the flu” etc. when I talk to friends I often hear them say “I know the generic is the same but it doesn’t work as well for me” which is puzzling as they should be an exact copy of the same drug, so it makes you wonder if there is some other psychological effect at play? Do people who take generic drugs expect a poor response or an adverse reaction because it’s a generic and then are quick to blame or report a common known side effect as an adverse reaction? There are so many variables involved, it’s mind boggling.
@@ffmcmav40 It's a nice excuse to say the patients are making up symptoms because they are prejudice against generics. But do YOU actually know even one person that is suspicious of generics? All people think about is getting the best price. My daughter DID get sick on a generic but at the time I just thought she was specifically sensitive to a filler in it. It was many years later when I discovered the story of generics manufacturing fraud and reconstructed the story all the was back. Generics and name brands are NOT the same. The generics manufacturer has to reverse engineer the formula, they are NOT given the actual formula, so they are NEVER identical. As a matter of fact, Ranbaxy was caught in their fraudulent activities because their manufacturing data matched exactly to the name brand drug and this is a RED FLAG FOR FRAUD because it really can never happen if the data is real. Patients usually do not make up symptoms, but when they have them they are rarely listened to. I've been reading my daughter's records and I can see that the practice is NOT to write down adverse reactions in the medical records.... Here is a recent Stanford research publication on the life threatening problem of doctors not charting adverse reactions www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(18)32598-3/fulltext . Written as if it's a not life- threatening disaster?!? Here is another article that is more critical www.hormonesmatter.com/epidemic-silence-adverse-drug-reactions/ But if doctors are refusing to even CHART adverse reactions they certainly are not reporting them anywhere... This is a big problem and it's life threatening and it means we actually do NOT know how dangerous any drug is even if it is manufactured safely and properly. The fact that doctors refuse to recognize adverse reactions means that they are not actually living up to the promise that they are "weighing the benefits vs the RISKS" - they appear to be ignoring the risks and pretending that suffering patients are all just nuts...THIS IS NOT TRUE OF ALL DOCTORS! but all of my daughter's doctors are guilty. Being a doctor is a difficult job and how can anyone tell what drug is causing what when 5 to 10 meds have been prescribed?!? impossible it really has become such a god awful mess, our current healthcare "system" more like a healthcare cluster. Thanks for writing to me though. I wish you health and joy.
One time I overlayed autism rates and organic food sales graphs, they aligned perfectly. So by the same logic you used here, organic food causes autism.
jessicabiel This week I went to Sacramento to talk to legislators in California about a proposed bill. I am not against vaccinations - I support children getting vaccinations and I also support families having the right to make educated medical decisions for their children alongside their physicians. My concern with #SB276 is solely regarding medical exemptions. My dearest friends have a child with a medical condition that warrants an exemption from vaccinations, and should this bill pass, it would greatly affect their family’s ability to care for their child in this state. That’s why I spoke to legislators and argued against this bill. Not because I don’t believe in vaccinations, but because I believe in giving doctors and the families they treat the ability to decide what’s best for their patients and the ability to provide that treatment. I encourage everyone to read more on this issue and to learn about the intricacies of #SB276. Thank you to everyone who met with me this week to engage in this important discussion!
JUNE 13, 2019
The thing is, that in some societies, admitting having lack of knowledge or uncertainty perceived as weak, expose you as vulnerable and untrustworthy.
Can you address, in one of your videos, the reality of vaccine injury? I'm not talking autism, but actual vaccine injury that is documented as such. I've been all over the place in vaccines because I have a medically complex kiddo. We were advised for ten years not to vaccinate because of this, but recently he got the MMR because of a measles outbreak in our area, and the team felt his risk of death from measles was greater than that of risk from vaccine. He did get a rash and experience some terrible seizures requiring treatment. But he came through ok, and I'm glad we did it because measles marches on. However...I'm not signing up for any more just yet. I think one of the frustrations of anti-vaxxers, autism aside, is that injury is real, does happen, and is minimized by the medical community as if it doesn't have lifelong implications for those affected.
Good luck for your son! :)
Teena Welch you know what? Find a holistic doctor and go there...not the system of tests, drugs, painful and invasive questioning and procedures.
Great points! Malcom Gladwell expands on this concept in his book David and Goliath. He would make a great guest on your show.
Thank you for clarifying the perspective on NPs to an older segment.
I always enjoy these talks, KEEP IT UP Z DOG
I live in an area where a hospital previously owned by the county was sold to a private entity and this hospital group is trying to get a stranglehold on the medical network. They've libeled and slandered Dr's who wouldn't join the network to the point these docs left (with very large sums of money from lawsuits too), they were the most skilled and qualified individuals in their fields of expertise. The Dr's who stayed have this problem where they are so far behind in their knowledge, sometimes 20-30 years behind, and yet they claim to know everything. It's so problematic that PTs and NPs recommend driving to a different state to see specialists. It's been an ongoing problem for the last five+ years. Now new Dr's are trickling in and are screaming that these Dr's should know something about diabetes management, ortho, allergies, and on and on. I'm curious to see if these new Dr's will stick around or if they'll move north and join a different network.
Ya, I have imposter syndrome and realize I don't know much about things except the things I have personal direct experience in.
As Charles Darwin said: "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
3:21 is content that I appreciate hearing. Great content. Well done.
With a 22 year career as a paramedic, I can attest to the average person trying to tell me how to do my job after checking their symptoms online. For example, we got called to a stroke my last shift. I work in a rural area so we put a helicopter on standby. We get on scene and the patient is complaining of a headache. Vitals all normal, no other S/S of a stroke. Could he be having a stroke? Sure. But we cancelled the helicopter and transported him by ground. The patient's wife lost her mind. She wanted us to fly him based on 3 minutes perusing webmd. Also, my favorite sayimg says it all: "Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt'.
I've always heard 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing'.
Totally! I'm a qualified, experienced emergency operating theatres ODP, but I'm also unwell right now. I can't find decent help. I’m not stupid! I know what. I need! I'm going to have to get well, & give it to others! 🤗
In an MR technologist working to get my MRSO training. I just took the test last week and hoo buddy, am I feeling the imposter syndrome hard core. I definitely know how much I dont know and it's scary. Ii miss that feeling that I knew what I was talking about.
Leads to the learning curve where it is a steep rise from apprentice to master and then a slight rise after master and those little micro bits of knowledge after you know everything are hard fought for and in professions like mine they tend to be a closely guarded secret. Finding those little bits of information let you know that no matter how much you know there is always something you don't know that you don't know about.
What is your profession brother?
@@mantheory6432 Skill trades. I just thirst for knowledge. The learning curve is the same for any profession though. Huge spike in the first 10,000 hours from knowing nothing to leveling off on a plateau and those tiny bits of information/tips/tricks are what separates you from the rest of the pack. Some guard that little knowledge like gold.
I used to work for a guy who was a textbook example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
He lived at the peak of mount stupid. Where as I and most of my colleagues dwelt in the valley of despair. (Take a look at the DK graph)
He believed he knew everything. He shouted down his employees. These were people who he'd hired because they were experts in a field. But he always knew more than them of course.
Meanwhile, when talking to him he was so confident that you think to yourself, "Maybe I'm wrong. He sounds like he knows what he's doing."
Then he'd say something so monumentally ignorant that you realise that he has no idea what he's talking about. But of course you couldn't correct him. You'd get shouted at for being stupid.
Strangely enough, the company went through a phase of losing large numbers of staff. About 20% of the technical staff in the space of a couple of months... including me.
It's not worth putting up with that sort of boss induced stress.
"There are known knowns. There are known unknowns...." Uncle United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Yeah, I know. Meta cognition extraordinaire.
In my opinion step one should be, " learn humility in life". Before starting any endeavor you should learn humility first. The fact is no matter how much you know you will never know everything. This then can merge with step three. Even when you think you know, you still could be wrong. Being open to this fact can will carry you through expertise to the point of being a visionary and leader.
The thing I hate most about dunning-kruger, as a physician, is that unfortunately I have zero confidence even in subjects for which I have a high amount of education, because I know how easy it is to be wrong
Donny Baker "I probably know more about (insert topic) than anybody."
Jessica Biel graduated from Tufts University, so I'm guessing she passed HS biology. And apparently did not oppose vaccines, but the state authority over doctor's authority - the state of CA stepping between doctor and patient. Her take was misguided in my opinion, but she does not say she's an anti vaxxer.
It goes without saying that David Dunning and Justin Kruger know that a lot of the test subjects who had gotten monumentally low scores, but had tremendously overestimated their scores were way below average in intelligence, but did David Dunning or Justin Kruger ever say so in no uncertain terms or document this in writing in no uncertain terms.
Good Lord - as I listened to this video, I kept thinking about a one certain rich guy that claims to be a mental genius.
I love your music singing videos. I think they are hilarious! (And true) I think you sing well.
One of the best explanations to date! Thanks!
Don't know what we don't know! My dad had a series of interesting symptoms, a general physician said UTI. After a few weeks of antibiotics and no change in symptoms, he went to a urologist.
The urologist took one look at the medications my dad had been taking for years for diabetes and said my dad most likely had bladder cancer.
He's now cancer (and bladder) free. Doesn't blame the first doc, but uses it as a good lesson: go see a specialist, if you can
As a scientist, we are always questioning each other’s experiments, conjectures made from the interpretation of the results/data, and where the overall discussion is going. This is an issue for all levels of learning - hell, our lab just got done hosting a visiting research scientist who was a total mess. Be open to the idea that you, much like Jon Snow, know nothing.
I wish I could love this 5000 times!!! So absolutely true about so many things!
He just explained every religous person out there
Absolutely love your Channel, and you're Simon Cowell impression sounds a lot like Doc Vader for some reason ;)
When I took foster care classes a huge lesson was the fact we don't correct children. This happens to become a domino effect on our society. That everyone gets a trophy is harmful according to study's.
@0:59: In a group of 100 people where 90 of them have $1000 dollars and 10 have no money, the average is $900, so 90% of them have more than the average amount of money.
I noticed you stayed away from political arguing examples. Smart move. You're clearly ahead of the curve
Well put. The best explanation of D&K effect
It is not correct to say that 80% of people being "above average" is statistically impossible, unless you are assuming a symmetrical distribution. In the driving example, some people are much worse than average...
Everybody needs to hear this.
That's you for your wonderful shows
You drank the Kool Aid... didn't you? probably 3 times
Point taken on what the DK effect actually is.
All the Jessica Biel blows are unnecessary though. To dismiss her and millions of others might make u fall victim to the very same DK effect as well.
I'm in NP school right now. I think the education model for NPs needs to be overhauled.
Amen. NPs will never be taken seriously until they ditch a lot of the Nursing Model BS and go to a Medicine based approach.
Great Job man-splaning.
Oh!!! Thank you for this video!!! Some fresh air of sanity in this crazy world!!! :)
Hey Zdogg did you grow up on Fowler and behymer in Clovis?
Oh Zdogg : ) I love the way you deliver the bad news…. Hopefully, our Dunning-Kruegers will learn from you. It is very true.
"Unconsciously Incompetent"
I love this video. Every said is so true and so prevalent in our society.
Great video! I have, however, got one criticism and one comment.
Criticism: Jessica Biel explicitly said that she is not anti-vaccine, she's just against compulsory vaccination.
Comment: for all you fellow lay-people out there who are adamantly in favor of vaccines, keep in mind that the Dunning-Kruger effect can still apply to you! Don't do 20 mi utes of internet reading where you read "vaccines are safe and effective, they eradicated polio, etc..." and be like "I'm an expert, now!." You still have a lot more to learn, too.
You know what to do. Download the damn video, share it, and learn!
Kind of like a chlorine disinfectant breakpoint curve there, Dr. Z. 😃💀😃
...and this is the reason humanity is screwed - the modern internet/media only amplifies this effect and connects the morons with each other, who then elect morons who ruin it for the rest of us. Advice for parents: stop telling kids they’re awesome at everything. Start there.
So...is this why physicians and dietitians are so combative when discussing low carb./high fat eating plans?
I’ve even heard that some physicians confuse ketosis is with diabetic ketoacidosis and immediately assume that low carb diets are dangerous.
Keep learning
Thank you
This is like the PA and the wine headache!
Finally these scientist get put on the spot 😂😂😂😂😂
All people are like that! Everyone is like that in some area. I know many physicians that are not that well versed in some of their areas of what should be their expertise. It is a human flaw that no one escapes.
that's illuminating bro, do you need italians subs for that?
I've had to deal with this shit for the past 20 years!!
God I wish everyone had the metacognition to understand this video :)
Great analysis.
Or doctors who have never read a single paper on the adverse effects of vaccines, but just "know" that they are safe.
" Jessica Biel" ZdoggMd 😆
Shout out to the almost photobomber in the background at 5:29!
Huh? What? Nothing you said about physicians & nurses angered me. This is all new to me.
Hey everybody it’s Your Boy Z Dog . Then He wants Us to think He is Smart ? And continue listening ? So this video describes Himself
Awesome video!! ❤❤
The more I discover, I realize that I have much to learn. Lol
I've never contemplated this...
zdoggmd can you talk about canada healthcare system
Had never heard of Jessica Biel, now I know who she is. So I know more things than10 minutes and yet I feel less intelligent. Theory validated.
I love when you call people out, specifically