I am a continuationist, I think biblically we can't escape that the gifts of the Spirit haven't ceased--but all this hyper-Charismatic, prophecy-obsessed, ultra-mystical aspect of the charismatic/NAR church is a bit much. I started to get sucked into it. Not every aspect of it was bad, and I learned a lot about listening to God's personal voice a bit more...and I've been blessed by Dan Mohler's ministry. But eventually I had to step back from ALL of it (Bethel, Dan, Todd White, etc.) because it was exhausting trying to be "spiritual" ALL the time, longing ot have "more" of God and feeling like He was holding back from me because I never got dreams or visions or anything, and I felt like I had to "act" like Todd White in order to be a next-level Christian...even though my personality could not be more opposite. I still believe in the gifts of the Spirit, but I'm not hyper about it----I'd align more with Dr. Michael Brown's beliefs about it--and even if I never saw a healing, or received a dream or vision, or heard God audibly speak to me, that's okay--because He speaks to me through His Word, and His Word is my ultimate authority over everything and everybody. Not emotion, not mysticism, and not through the worship of celebrity Christian idols.
The problem is these movements aren't ALL bad! That's how they deceive! Coming out of RC I cringe at the many protestant churches and flavors as well as false teachings! I rely on my Bible, prayer, and Jesus now and attend a Pentalcostal church but probably won't become a member! I was deceived for too long to give my spiritual beliefs over to any clergy.
After many encounters especially one penticoastal group from Indonesia recently, no, no more charistmatic stuff. Dont come as you are only representing yourself. We do not have to be charistmatic to believe that God still heals today. It is stated in the bible but not all are healed, fact. Hope people will not give those not healed a hard time. The Bible never teaches to treat the sick as if there are 'criminals' nor does it teaches to threaten those you suspect of committing sins if not Confessed to you. The preachers or church authorities should also be subjected to the teachings not only the followers. You are not above the teachings or giving special privileges. You cannot simply threaten people and shame them according to your own desires. You must remember you are not God but just a mortal being like everyone else. Not everyone is called. Stop misused your authorities. Stay within your boundaries. If you want to discipline others, you better make sure you discipline yourself too. Be accountable for what you said and done to others and also your own behaviours. Don't lead a double standard life. Of course they are not wrong about everything but admit when you make mistakes, whatever it may be. If you still want to practise a double standard way of dealings with yourselves and others better quit as you only bring more harm than good.
Dr. Michael Brown can't even call Benny Hinn a false prophet. In fact he calls him a brother in Christ. It's evident and has been proven he is a Charleston. So I wouldn't rely to much on Browns discernment. Brown also says Sid Roth is a Christian yet Sid embraces all of these nutty folks who say they talked to horses in heaven, people listening in on the trinity and people saying they have the warrior dance downloaded to them by God. He believes all of it and helps them sell their merchandise on his show.
As a Pentecostal Christian, I did receive good insight from this podcast, and I would say that the dangers of the NAR movement have more to do with the abuse of power and popularity, and not necessarily their direct belief that the offices of apostle & prophet are for today. Thanks for the conversation.
My experience and study leads to this: if you look carefully, leaders of most of the "softer cults" and other Christian like religions act and speak the same (LDS, JW, Catholics, etc). It all starts with believing things outside the Word of God and grows from there, ending up in control and abuse. Plus, all of them talk about a unified church under their own power, esp. Catholics and NAR. They seem obsessed with it. My 2 cents.
But their assertion that they have the same authority that the Biblical apostles have, puts them in the position of rewriting the Bible, something they seem all too willing to do. Both false apostleship and false prophecy give them a stranglehold over those who believe them, of being able to push new doctrines to replace the old ones from the Bible. That's something we need to completely reject.
@@elissabellajoy Hence, the "Seven Mountains of Culture", with no attention to the screaming, red flag that implies. In spite of the fact that the Whore of Revelation 17 & 18 "sitteth on seven mountains", definitely something which should give us pause, the same folks who told us a certain, lawless politician was "God's Cyrus" and "God's _wrecking ball',_ are telling us to "occupy" _Seven Mountains,_ and simply take over the world. The underlying teachings of _Manifest Sons of God_ and _Joel's Army,_ which are the basis of this movement, call for violence, and assert that there is a generation of elite soldiers of God who will take over this world "for" Jesus, after which He will supposedly show up to sign off on our work. This is a complete denial of the Bible's eschatology, but ignoring the red flag of "seven mountains" is a major clue.
Just witnessed that this weekend in a church in Phoenix , there were people convulsing on the floor, I am so grateful for discernment, there was a woman who was called for healing and her body was contorted on the floor and her leg was bound in the air on its own and the “Apostle” of the church told the congregation that what we were witnessing was Jesus performing surgery on her in the Spirit and how lucky were we that we got to witness that.
Strait up demons from hell Everytime I see them you know them they all dress and act the same makes me sick 🤢 just the site of them stay miles from these devils 👿
Do you remember what happened? Was she healed? I find all this so confusing. Are they actually healing people? What’s causing their bodies to convulse? Is it witchcraft?
At the beginning of this year, 20 "prophets and prophetesses" were asked to comment on the coming year. Not one of them even hinted about Coronavirus whatsoever. In fact many mentioned things like "increase" and expanded wealth.
I guess the LIVING HUMAN TAROT CARDS were wrong, shuckers. But then again, their psychic readings might be right if they were describing the year ahead for the cabal/luciferins/illuminati.
"let the stoning begin..."....this is why it's very dangerous to claim to be a "prophet", and why you were killed for being a false one in the Old Testament...God takes it very seriously when people claim to "speak" for Him, especially when they weren't selected by Him for that task...
you got the answer right there . NO ONE see the futur but every body try to speak with autority. SCIENCE will get us out of the pandemic. Sorry prophete
"... hold a high level of authority but not a high level of accountability like the Old Testament prophets were..."--- This is about power and love of the praise of men (John 12:43, Matthew 23:5) False self-appointed "prophets" and "apostles" who speak on their own authority and seek their own glory, as Jesus said (John 7:18). Why do the frauds seem to always choose what are perceived to be the most prestigious gifts of the Spirit? They love the sound of their own voices and having control over other people. This is a power structure that exists in every false religion. Sadly, the people who submit to these frauds get what their itching ears are seeking because THEY DON'T STUDY THE BIBLE FOR THEMSELVES. Paul actually was an apostle AND prophet but the BEREANS made it their business to examine the scriptures for themselves. "If you are wise, you are wise for yourself. If you scoff, you alone will bear it." (Proverbs 9:12) Theses are cults where the leaders wield all the authority and crush any questioning or dissent. Best-selling corrupted bible translation, best-selling spiritually shallow music, people paying to learn how to prophecy and do miracles? The love of money is the root of all evils (1Timothy 6:10, James 3:14-16.)
Yeah that’s all they think and talk about .. I have been in a relationship with Jesus long enough to know the difference.. I am not going to explain myself anymore about this.. I answer to God and no man.. biblical deception and heretics are great among us .. I have nothing more to say..
I just want to say that abuse doesn't just happen in NAR/charasmatic churches. I was in three churches who bodly cliamed the gifts of the spirit are not for today etc, and they were incredibly abusive. It is a trend across all denominations.
I was not in a NAR church but I was in an apostolic church with a woman apostle who lead the church. It was one of the most abusive things I’ve ever been in. There was a fear used against us to not disobey the “apostle” and “the mantle of the apostle”. It really allows for control, heresy, abuse, and division. I was there for ten years and was in the highest level of leadership but recently left. I was seen as being out of God’s will for leaving. I love listening to these podcasts as they really unmask and undo heretical belief systems I had in my life. Thank you!
It strikes me that the main area of concern is not so much whether apostles and prophets are for today but rather seeing that such offices are governing offices - and the authoritarian approach that ensues. The biblical warrant for believing that the offices of apostles and prophets continue is Ephesians 4:11-13 - but when we look at that passage, it is very clear that such offices are there 'to equip the saints for the work of ministry' - there is no warrant for seeing these offices as governing or ruling offices. For me this confusion and the enuing authoritarianism is the real error of NAR.
Exactly The Five ministry gifts to the body are not in order of authority. They are there for the building up of the body of Christ. One is no more important than any other. Saying that there is no need for apostles and prophets must include no need for evangelists, pastors or teachers. They are all needed today. Authoritarianism is the real problem.
Thank you for this insight. A dear elderly friend of mine has left her local church due to this movement and has believed many false prophecies that clearly have not come to pass. Lots of them about the election and the economy. She lives alone and came to be very dogmatic about this during the year of the covid quarantines. If I try to discuss the issues Biblically with her she cries. It has been very hard on our friendship, but I can't see how I can just smile and nod when she tells me all of this.
People dont know this , but many Assemblies of God chuches are affiliated with NAR. And there are a lot of diploma mills like the hispanic Christian University of North Carolina, which is really in NJ. And is also afilliated to NAR, and sell apostolic titles, Honorary Doctorate Degrees for a few hundred dollars, with classes through Zoom, and classes once a month. Just write an essay and bring a letter of good standing sign by 3 or 4 pastors, and now you are a doctor in theology!
I really like how well Holly simplifies down the exact definers of NAR. That helps me to sort of separate it’s niché in my mind. As when I study, I often see WoF, NAR, and PG as just being so very similar, it’s hard to differentiate honestly! So thank u for really explaining it’s niché definer to me! ♥️
@@kglor920 No problem friend, I’m happy to explain. :) So they are just abbreviated letters that stand for the most commonly encountered mainstream church false doctrines. Word of Faith - WoF. Prosperity Gospel - PG. and New Apostolic Reformation - NAR. Let me know if you have more questions.
I was in a discipleship environment that was NAR, for 6 years. I was all in. I helped lead it. At the end, I was told I was a prophet. The entire time there was a huge amount of strife and disunity in my marriage, because my husband had one question repeatedly: where is that in the Bible? And we were taught that there is extra-biblical revelation from God like rhema words and revelation for The Body. 3 years ago, I felt God moving me away from that group. I was at the church where the group took place for 10 years. I’m still weeding out and detoxing, as far as truth from error. There’s a lot more peace in my marriage. I definitely agree about the concept of “levels of anointing” and levels of power/authority. It was like chasing a high… there was always a next level; greater anointing. And if your leader didn’t see you going higher (in my case), I saw told, “you have been in decline for 6 months”. I was actually 6 months pregnant at the time… that was the very beginning of the end for me in that group. The leader never treated me the same. It became like a hierarchical situation.
Thank you for producing quality material like this that we need for the body of Christ to hear, to be knowledgeable about what's really going on I'm mainstream evangelicalism. I wish it was viral like all of these videos from false teachers, but I suppose its just a sign of the times. God bless you and please keep up the good work!
I believe a lot of NAR people truly love Jesus. But maybe they’re off in the weeds a bit… or a lot. I still believe in the spiritual gifts, healing, deliverance, baptism of Holy Spirit… I just no longer believe they can only happen to or through certain people with titles/mantles/anointings. I believe Jesus hears every prayer and if it’s his will to heal, deliver, fill, etc at the time, it will take place by His Spirit. Whether it’s in a closet alone or on a stage with a leader, or at a table with a friend… it’s not so complicated as having to have prophet or apostle or pastor so and so lay hands on you that one time they’re in town to get what Jesus died for you to have; to get what Jesus wants you to have more than you want it.
We left our church in Wenatchee, WA, Sage Hills Church. They state that they are not a Bethel church but practice NAR practices. Once confronted we were just told that we didn't have to stay. So much damage going on within this culture. Even off campus bible studies led by church leaders and pastors through Jonathan Welton cult leader books!
That’s another thing my husband said: in the bible, if a prophet gets a word wrong, they die. And I told him that was OT, and we are under grace now in NT. Something I started considering was that Christianity is supposed to be so easy that a child can believe. Following Jesus is simple enough for a child to live for Jesus. And all the training and warfare strategies are beyond complicated. As I was leaving NAR, I saw reading material being utilized that looked like horoscopes.
Old pod but relevant for today. Just heard about NAR with Jan Markell and Jack Hibbs. The NAR, in part, sounds like a blend of shepherding doctrine and name it and claim it.
What’s really sad is that some of the pastors who appear on Jan’s program are now involved with the NAR church!!! They have been doing episodes with “ Bishop Alan Didio “, and they have appeared on his UA-cam channel. Not understanding how this has happened!!!!
Wow these words are given to people who dont know how to hear Gods voice so they trust the person giving the word ... very dangerous and shows how unprpeared we as a Church are for anything that God wants to do through it ... unbelievable and sad
The money changers must be driven out of the temple and God's house restored to the house of prayer for all nations it is meant to be. PAY FOR spiritually shallow "worship" music. PAY FOR sloppy, corrupted bible "translation," paraphrase, whatever. PAY FOR classes on doing magic tri...um, practicing spiritual gifts. The love of money, pleasure and SELF drives these fraudulent apostles (2 Timothy 3:1-5). False prophets seeking monetary profits through the scam of false religion.
I just left a progressive church and they also promote the Alpha course (Nicky Gumbel) and centering prayer / contemplative prayer and Renovaré (Dallas Willard) I confronted them and they gaslight everyone into believing that they are not doing or teaching anything unbiblical. They are so nice and kind and nobody believed me and I looked like a troublemaker. I was the only person who left the church. Could you look into how all these teachings are connected and do a video? I really need to hear that I’m not going crazy 😜
I too am feeling a little crazy - trying to steer my little boat through all this choppy water of additional teachings. I too am left out on a limb really, longing for connection with other Christians but find there is such a mixture in belief . It is much like a mutating virus throughout the church. Help!
You all are not crazy. This NAR nonsense has a lot of truth on it but it's just like rat poison it's that small percentage of venom( in this case lies) that leavens the whole lump like the Lord Jesus said. God bless you all.
Two of our daughters are very involved in this movement. They are two of 8 siblings and they have separated themselves from them and have not spoken to us in 3 years. We tried to visit their church , but it was fake. Truth to them, but not reality. They are word mouth prophecy,God said it thru them, go do it. Tragic! Praying for deliverance in our daughters.
I am 49 years old. I’ve been fighting against this stuff since Hank Hanegraaff released a book called Christianity in Crisis. I eventually wound up in Vineyard Christian fellowship they were started by John Wimber as a third branch of the Calvary Chapel & Horizon Christian Fellowship movement but John started it without the blessings of Chuck Smith and Mike Macintosh. John was more worried about signs and wonders than evangelism and discipleship. Vineyard had a school in Kansas City where you could go there and learn to be a profit. From first-hand experience I can tell you that is not what the fruit of this school was. I seen it produce divorce and a lot of atheists. Then of course Rodney Howard Browne and the Toronto revival came out of that then the emergent church and here we are today.
vineyard is bad, We attended Chuck's and Horizon. this stuff is slithering through the charismatic movement and churches. I would rely more on the Bible and less on feeling. especially in these deceptive times.
I was unsuspectantly going to the IHOP for a few years and left because it was controlling and a lot of arguing was going on in the prayer meetings.Thank you for enlightening me to what they are all about.So much deception going on.Movements like this lead to apostasy and eventually one world religion!Praying for believers not to be deceived!Peace,Doreen
I think the biggest issue is some of this mindset say that Jesus won't come back until the church is in the proper perfected state, which happens by aligning under the proper apostolic covering as the process through which the church becomes spotless. This makes room for all sorts of control and manipulation. When in fact, what makes the bride spotless is the blood of Christ, not your apostolic covering.
For all of you making comments just based on this broadcast, you are guilty of judging, and not researching the truth for yourself. This is but one person's perspective, and to assume that she is telling you the truth without researching it out for yourself makes you just as guilty as what she says NAR churches do. I've never experienced the kind of judgement in a NAR church as I have in other, more traditional churches. I have been involved with NAR churches on/off for nearly 10 years. I've NEVER encountered even half of what was presented in this podcast. And, what I have, I felt that she took things out of context, or exaggerated them. In Mk 16:17-18 it lists the signs and wonders that follow them who believe. Many NAR churches that I've been to, have the evidence of signs and wonders. I KNOW that they are REAL, as I've been a recipient of God's grace in some of those meetings. Just because they do things different than you might doesn't make them wrong. In fact, God loves to use the "unqualified" to do miracles thru, lest no man could boast! (Think David, Peter, Macabee brothers, Deborah, Esther, and many, many more!)
Not true you're supposed to judge false teachers and false prophets wake up read the word if you knew the word and if he asked for discernment you would know that these people have led thousands of stray and the fires of hell is waiting for those believe even want to stray and also pray for those people who don't read the word and follow every wind of Doctrine
Also when you really do your research all those healings of fake there wasn't really true healings and most of the prophecies are alike and in the Bible if you get one prophecy van you are false prophet
Brian Simmons is really destroyed the kingdom of God by his false word and it's so sad so many people I'm not going by the original transcripts and it he has led Millions astray and so many churches have followed his word of the translation Bible Jesus warned us that this would happen anybody that reads that Bible is not getting the true word of God I don't even think this man is a true Christian I heard he doesn't even believe half of the crap he puts out there
In the Old Testament the Priest, Prophets and Kings had the Spirit of God upon them. The children of Israel did not have the Spirit of God upon them. So they had to look for the Prophets for guidance. Under the New Testament we have the Spirit of God in us to lead us. No where in the New Testament are we told to follow the Prophets for guidance. We are to seek God for ourselves and get leading. The Prophets are to confirm what the Spirit has said to us. These Prophets who go around dictating people lives are in error....Rom. 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Please check out Mike Wingers’ UA-cam take on Bill Johnson and his Biblical theological movement. Pastor Mike is a straight shooter who “fired from the hip”. He gets deep. Enjoy! +bromark+
Yes and there's more youtube channels exposing this heretical charismatics like " Fighting for the Faith " ; "Revealing Truth" and" BezelT3" . God bless you.
Alisa it would be awesome if you could interview Bill Johnson directly, Holly may do great research but I am wondering how objective it is and I have found people can draw the best conclusions when the person being discussed can answer the hard questions themselves (e.g Patrick Bet David and Jordan Petersen do this very well). I have purposely been around multiple denominations for 40 years and have disagreed with teaching in everyone...I even disagree with some things I believed 3 and 6 months ago but I continue to seek God and get revelation from His word which changes me and helps me grow. 1Thess 5:20-22 says "do not utterly reject prophecies, but examine everything; hold firmly to that which is good, abstain from every form of evil". Not everything Bethel Church says is wrong while many things they teach are great such as having a love for God and others, I have taken teachings from Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton and applied them my life with good fruit. The message I get from your guest is to stay away from these people completely which I don't agree with as it causes fear rather than a love for people. I believe the main issue comes with people who listen to teachers and are swayed by them or misinterpret what they say to meet their own desires or agree with what they already believe and they can't judge correctly because they don't read or know the Bible for themselves and get revelation directly from God through his word. Do I agree with the need for Apostles? I'm not sure yet. I do believe every "organization" runs more efficiently when there is a leader that hears from God and can direct the ministry. Once you hire an employee for your podcast they must take directions from you based on how you feel God is directing your ministry. However, I also believe each one of us is to have a relationship with God directly and must make decisions on how we believe God is leading us individually. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater but "but examine everything; hold firmly to that which is good". God bless you, I really enjoy your ministry.
I'm attending an NAR church and the leadership are rejecting those who don't comply with their beliefs. I've been told I have a religious spirit after I resisted the courts of heaven process.
@maggiem2673 That's common and an abuse of authority. God gave us free will, minds and spirits of our own to use and think ans connect with him individually. This is a common spiritual abuse in nar and I have seen it too. Religious spirits and spirits of independence are terms I have heard thrown about when people dare challenge a leader. These are unbiblical, human invented terms to intimate people to fall into line with something that unsettles their spirit. I'll never forget reading somewhere that a way to follow the Holy Spirit is to follow the sense of peace in your heart. The Holy Spirit leads in peace, the ememy tries to pressure us.
I'm Apostolic. Have been for 43 years. Never heard of that. Apostolic Pentecostal. 2:50 Well, ok. Truly God has given his church power. What's a church without power? Jesus said But ye shall receive power after the Holy Ghost is come upon you. And ye shall be witnesses unto me... Casting out demons, raising the dead, healing the sick. Preaching and teaching the gospel. When Jesus said Greater works shall you do because I go to the Father. Jesus stayed in Palestine. He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And Jesus Other sheep I have... The church. The apostles went into all the world. The church is still on earth. Waiting for the Rapture. The church was born on the day of Pentecost in Acts the 2nd chapter. The plan of salvation was drawn up there. Laid out. And carried out. See Acts 2:38. That's the apostles doctrine.
The best analogy I’ve heard regarding these teachings and trying to tell people about them is “like nailing jelly to a wall.” I was woken up a year ago to the fact that the AG church I was going to for many many years had been inching in to this mess for a long time. I had the hardest time waring my pastors for many reasons. One of which was that Word of Faith, Prosperity and Dominionism have just enough Truth mixed with falsehoods to help people justify and defend using the Word of God. A person in their right mind can see what is wrong, but these teachings are so alluring they lead people into delusions.
So in summary the Anti-NAR people do not believe prophets, apostles, evangelists, teachers can and do exist today? I.E. these critics do not believe 1Co 12:28 (ESV) “And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.”? I am very curious to know who of these critics personally are experiencing at least some of Mark16:17-18 on a regular basis? Or are we going to hear the “that all died with the first apostles” lie? Just checking... Praise God for Holy Spirit in me, through me and FOR those that need His love manifested not only in words but also in POWER.
An “apostle” came to our neighboring church and it was absolutely in no way the Spirit of the Living God! I cannot stop praying for people to wake up to the slick and subtle ways that Satan has been and is creeping into God’s Holy House. But after seeing this woman’s performance on UA-cam after she departed, I began to question the leadership of that church and the lack of spiritual discernment! Thank you for this podcast and insight. And thank you for the “additional insight” regarding the passion translation. I went to Mr Simmon’s page regarding his “revelation” and the first thing that came to mind was “he sounds like a Joseph Smith…” 😢🙏🏽
May we Believers in Jesus be faithful to love the LORD, study His Word, & continually pray so that we can "endure to the end" (Matthew 24:13b). May God bless & keep you during these perilous days. 🙏🏾 😃
I am reading the autobiography, " Stolen Innocence" by Elisa Walls. It is her story of growing up in the FLDS polygamous sect. The way she describes the "prophets", reminds me of your description of "the authoritarian" stance if the NAR "prophets"...scary.
I was just thinking the same as I listened, in fact, how every single "apostle" and cult leader sounds and acts the same. Pretty devastating to think how rapidly their numbers grow all over the world. How blessed we are to have the Word of God to hold on to.
There are so many churches that come dangerously close to this. I believe the biggest reason is the ignorance of the congregation, and the lack of study in the bible.
I have heard some NAR leaders begin to refer to "dawn" and "golden dawn" (0:37) --In light of that it is very very interesting to research House of the Golden Dawn and it's esoteric foundations and usages of "white magic" and allowances and co-opting of "Jesus" in their published belief system. At the heart it is the usually unspoken hidden worship of Lucifer. Isaiah 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
the Calvary church movement has the music creeping in. C Chapel Chino Hills regularly plays jesus culture , hillsong , and phil craig &dean (modalists ) in their services. They had what was suppose to be a Wednesday night service where they played their music, asked for tithes and offerings then went on with what looked like a PAC rally. The guest pastor speaking actually pointed out the "7 spheres of culture" (aka 7 mountain mandate)that "we need too as Christians get involved in". They had another guest who only spoke for a short time but come to find out he's endorsed Sean Feucht running for congress. Sean is one of the worship leaders at bethel redding.
Thank you for your help walking through these land mines. Do you know Dr. Joe Boot? I am wondering if you hear him espousing the same mindset toward “winning the world” as do the NAR, minus the Apostles and Prophets? I would so appreciate your feedback.
It seems as if those promoting the NAR have grown impatient with the "ineffectiveness" of the Gospel. It's telling that all those mentioned have a tribulational eschatology. Hmmm....
No, what they teach about eschatology is that we are to take over the world, AS Jesus's second coming, and then Jesus will return to sign off on our work. This is 7M, Seven Mountains doctrine, and it is related to Manifest Sons of God/Joel's Army Dominionist doctrine. Holly is speaking about "victorious eschatology" as I am listening to this, now. Basically, she said that there are two points of view in the movement, both pre-trib/premillennial and post-trib/post millennial. But for information about the Dominionist part, look into Manifest Sons of God and Joel's Army, plus Seven Mountains of Culture. A good place to find a lot of research about Dominionist doctrines is Herescope (if you look them up on your phone, look for the desktop version of the page to navigate to their whole history of writings.)
We had the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets who told us what was to come and how to live. Jesus came and gave us the eternal gospel. Now, we have the Spirit of the Lord in us to lead us to all truth. Evangelists preach the gospel and set up churches, pastors and teachers care and instruct from the bible how we are to live and should model it themselves. We prophesy by the Spirit concerning the word and if we see it being fulfilled as to what was written. I Peter 1:10, 2 Peter 1:19, 2 Cor 4:6, Psalm 119:105
I think there's a distinction made between office and gifting. I've heard apostolic gifting ("apostle" meaning sent) being like, missionary callings. And some Christians believe the gift of prophecy has been done away with. I'm not charismatic, but I don't believe any of the giftings have been entirely done away with (although I'm leery of much of what passes as prophecy. And speaking in tongues.) But the office of apostle was limited to the twelve Jesus chose (or thirteen, Judas being replaced by either Matthias or Paul or both. Little muddy there. Not sure.) But this was an eyewitness thing (Acts 1:20-26). This obviously wouldn't be applicable as an office anymore. And from Revelation 22:18, we believe that the canon of Scripture has been closed as being another eyewitness thing. The New Testament books were chosen on their eyewitness status (or those who had access to the eyewitnesses and recorded their testimonies.) (Paul counts himself as an eyewitness to the resurrection by seeing Jesus appear to him on the road to Damascus.) So the eyewitness angle is the reason the offices of apostle and prophet (as in, the people who wrote the Bible) would be different today. Those offices in their New Testament roles would not be available today, and anyone believing they have some form of gifting in these areas would need to acknowledge that their words and teachings cannot possibly be as authoritative as the original eyewitnesses. Sure, God still speaks. But so do a lot of people. We have to have some kind of reliable standard to judge people's claims by. The words of the eyewitnesses recognized as Scripture are the judge. The so-called modern-day apostles and prophets as recognized by this movement and their teachings do not line up with the inerrant Word of God. Not if they put their authority on par with that of the eyewitnesses.
Oops did you nt hear that in the last days there would be false prophets and apostles I recommend seek you first THE kingdom of God and His righteousness. And all these things will be given added to you JUST SEEK JESUS WITH A PURE HEART BE FOR REAL
I wondered the same thing. I believe in five-fold ministry for today, but I don't believe any one person's revelation/prophesy should be held with the same weight as scripture from the moment of delivery, but rather weighed against the Bible and pondered with discernment from the Holy Spirit. I am trying to figure out how the belief in Eph. 4 can be maintained while rejecting the fad and the inappropriate use of power in the NAR movement.
@@hannahm5651 You will know when it is the Spirit at work. I for one am blessed with the gifts of discernment and seeing things in the spiritual but whenever I share words/visions with people I always ask them to test it with the bible. Also, it glorifies God and it always matches someone's personal situation and they go and glorify God. Trust me, you will know when it is the Holy Spirit because He always points towards the bible. The NAR is for about 80% based on experience. Thats kinda dangerous really cause they tell you testing the spirits is not that important. But it is because you would otherwise be very vulnerable spiritually. And that is not Gods purpose! He wants to empower us. :-) Be blessed!!
Perhaps I need to study the verse further, but as I understand it, everything we do, we do for the sake of Jesus Christ. We are only endowed with the ability to make anything about our lives for Christ through our faith which is given us through the Holy Spirit. Thus the things we do and are skilled at doing for Jesus and His Beloved (the Church) we do as a result of the Holy Spirit and are gifted. Some of hospitality, some as teachers, some in medical, and some in accounts. There is literally nothing new to be revealed. The Bible says everything we need to know. Our gifts are much simpler than we like to think.
Such a complicated topic. I agree with many things said here and agree that there is a lot of extra-biblical or non-biblical things being taught/practiced here. I've listened to a fantastic podcast from Daniel Kolenda on this topic (who has also been accused of being part of the NAR) and I also agree with many things he is saying! That is why this whole topic is so confusing to me, because I sometimes just don't know where I stand anymore. I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for us today. I believe that some people have prophetic and apostolic gifts (for growing and edifying the Church), but that there is no such thing as an "office" of Apostle or Prophet. The only church "offices" are Elders and Deacons and those are functions, not gifts. I believe in active evangelism in all areas of this world, but do not believe in dominionism. I am therefore a pre-millennialist, which is someone who believes that this world will continue to resist the Gospel more and more and will degrade before Jesus returns. However, Jesus will continue to build His Kingdom on Earth through His Church which is in this world, but not part of it. I believe in revival in local communities (as a result of evangelism), leading to increases in salvations and therefore Church growth. I believe that the Church and the World will always remain separate until Jesus' return, meaning that the Church will continue to be persecuted
Seems like a lot of overlap between the teachings of NAR and the neoPentecostal teaching of the WordFaith movement of Kenneth Hagin which is greatly influencing classic Pentecostal churches today.
As a former Evangelical Protestant and someone who had family members involved in the NRA I saw early on the dangers of this movement and knew how off they were. I taught doctrine and theology in my church which led to a lot of questions. I was a faithful Protestant for over 40 years. As I started to study the early church and read the apostolic church fathers, like Polycarp, Ignatius, etc my eyes began to open. I began to see the problem with things like scripture “alone”, ( which is not taught in the Bible) faith alone and all the disagreements among supposed scholars concerning baptism, communion and what was referred to as “ open handed issues.” With some 40 thousand denominations since the Reformation (turned revolution) it’s no wonder there are many disagreements on major doctrines. God took me on a journey to a place I never thought I would end up in. I now see all the things I wrongfully perceived the Catholic Church to be. I also see how the Catholic Church has faithfully protected the deposit of faith. The Catholic Church has known and warned about the things written in this book concerning the NRA and many other false teachings. Truly the fullness of the faith is found in this beautiful, imperfect Church that has been here since Christ and the apostles. It takes a willingness to humbly ask for the truth and to read church history from especially the apostolic church fathers. This Church remains the same concerning doctrine, theology and moral principles. My ignorance has been replaced with the truth through sincere prayer and study. The Catholic Church has been dealing with heresies and false teachings for over 2000 years. There’s nothing new under the sun. As a former Evangelical Protestant I can say there are good churches who share the gospel… they are just missing some things given to us by Christ and the apostles. 🙏
The Catholic Church was not the church that was around when Jesus Christ and the Apostles were on earth!!! That is a huge deception from the Catholic Church.
Is there a head apostle and prophet in this new NAR structure with lesser regional apostles and prophets ? How would it compare let’s say with the Roman structure? Pope Bishops Archbishops Priests? Catholic universities schools and media media centers.
The late Peter Wagner was the first chief apostle. How does the chief apostle compare with, say, the pope? The pope, unlike NAR apostles, does not make unilateral declarations. He rarely speaks ex cathedra, that is to say, infallibly. Most of the papal declarations like papal encyclicals are not infallible. This is why Pope Francis's recent declaration about same-sex blessing has been challenged by other bishops. In short, NAR apostles claim for themselves a power much greater than the pope's.
@@schan5436, the Catholic Church is a false religion. The pope does not represent Jesus Christ on earth. Pope Francis is one of the most evil men in our world right now!! He is a Jesuit, Marxist. He pushes socialism! He supports disgusting beliefs and behaviors. He has said that if an alien species comes to Earth, and they have a Christ, then the Jesus Christ who died for the sins of mankind ( if they will believe in Him and repent and follow Him), then the alien “ Jesus “ would be the true one! 🤯😱🤮👿👿👿👿👿👿👿
I don't understand why we shouldn't see prophets (biblical representation) and apostles guiding churches. It seems biblical. Why would this be over in/after Jesus' time? When did the Bible ever say that these gifts of the Spirit would stop? Are we excusing a deviation from God's Word because we no longer believe in physical representations of the supernatural? I do not identify as charismatic and have some issues with many charismatic churches. I attempt to believe openly what the Bible teaches and to hold all teaching to the Bible.
I want for a job interview for a couple of these people that were part of the Nar and some of them were more concerned about how much money they were making for their conferences and how much they were selling books
God sort of drop-kicked me out of Bethel Church back in 2011. I moved from Southern Oregon to Redding to attend Bethel back in 2003. At that time they were part of the Assemblies of God. Moving to Reading was the worst mistake of my life. I had no idea how far off base Bethel have become until the last couple years. It seemed to have all started with Lance Wallnau's book, The Seven Mind Molders. So I have some experience with Bethel and can say that some of us have survived adhering to sound doctrine. (But not many) The problem I am hearing in this video is, the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater. Elise's guest is clearly not Pentecostal, and that's okay. But if you don't believe in the fivefold ministry: apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, and teachers As well as the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit. She seems to lump today's apostles and Prophets with those of the NAR. But there is a huge difference. Today's apostles and prophets understand that we know in part and prophesy in part. The standard of an Old testament prophet is different than a prophet under grace. An NRA prophet puts his prophecy on the level of the word of God. The rest of us do not. An NRA apostle believes he has the same authority as the original 12. Today's apostles do not. In the mid 90s, I pastored an Open Bible Standard Church in Coos Bay Oregon which was very similar to the Assemblies of God. The president of Open Bible was an apostle who had authority over 52 OBS churches and nobody else. His job was to make sure every Church was laying down a biblical foundation. Profits, pastors and teachers built upon that foundation with Bible truth. We believe in miracles, signs and and wonders. Doing greater miracles simply means more miracles. We believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, not Dominion theology. We believe the Book of Revelation is literal and not allegory. But it appears as though the guest is lumping Pentecostals together with the NRA, dominionists and Kingdom Now.
This makes me think about Kain and Abel.. If we categorize roughly; the bloodline of Kain mixed with powerdeeds, cursing members if they ask questiones about odd practise, turns out to be a very wrong leadership. Abels bloodline, as in Jesus, with powerdeeds, lift people up, from a servants perspective.. Fallen angels seeds (As Kain, human with fathers seed from the snake) in church stab must be delt with. Deliverance must be more emphazised. This is why we talk about "being adopted", the people that repented, and got to be on the bloodline of Jesus, Himself, like in being not just born again, but baptized,delivered and receiving The Holy Spirit.
I appreciated the info in this episode. But, I have one concern. In Ephesians 4, Paul shares on the five-fold ministry: apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, and evangelist. These gifts of men AND women are there to equip the body of Christ for the work of ministry UNTIL full maturity. We are not there yet; therefore, these gifts still exist, including the apostles and the prophets. There's evidence in the New Testament for the existence of apostles and prophets beyond the twelve. 1 Corinthians 14 gives a primer on how prophetic words are to be evaluated in a gathering. It can be interpreted that Philip's 4 daughters were prophetesses, exercising the office. My point in saying all of this is that "we can't throw out the baby with the bathwater." Just because there's a misuse of practice and authority, it doesn't negate the true and God-given offices of apostle and prophet, etc. If we dismiss (even despise) what God has legitimately given, then the enemy wins in our overcorrection of what is false and wrong.
I think it is important to have some information of some devious teachings that are around. Then there’s also the danger that we get engulfed totally with the knowledge of false teachings, while we forfeit being filled with the truth of the gospel. There is also a great danger of rejecting elements of truth if it’s something it was not told us before. Like, I shared with someone that we need to be built into the building. That he denied strongly, and when I added Revelation 3:12 that the overcomer will be built into the temple, he strongly declared, STOP. Why? Because this teaching was not in his vocabulary though it is clearly in the Bible. The more we know the truth of the gospel the better we’ll be able to detect the heretic one.
Should we blame the NAR for divorces, broken relationships from families/friends. Or do we blame the false theology of those that are divorcing loved ones, and cutting relationships from others. I'm definitely shifting out of this hyper-charismatic movement, and starting to see these errors of the nar (but still loving the Holy Spirit, and the prophetic) but I can't help but think that the hyper-critics need to also calm it down as well
Having Gifts does not mean you are a christian if you do not obey the word . even false religion has conterfit gifts that move Just like the Pentecostal and chasmaic . which is strange fire.
Really!? That's not good. I currently am wrapping up a AA in Apologetics with Liberty University. Not good if my money is going to this craziness. What college or seminary can I trust?
@@8tive4n I have about 5 years of unaccredited college and was wondering where I could go for national accreditation. I honestly can't answer that question. I don't agree with the Peter Drucker/Rick Warren Purpose Driven Church business model either so that eliminates most churches you can go to today. If you find a college that accredits you on a national level, I would love to know about it. I've been doing apologetics for about 12 years now (self-trained) but it is hard to get financial support to go full time without a piece of paper on the wall. Liberty may have a lot of good teaching but I think it was Falwell Sr.'s religious right movement that influenced his son and the NAR is huge in taking over all of society with their 7 Mountains Mandate Joel's Army teaching. Just look at who is surrounding President Trump. Elijah List wasn't mentioned on this program. They have spread the vast majority of false prophets with all of their conferences and this movement I believe is way more dangerous than Bill Johnson and Bethel, IHOP, Toronto Blessing and Lance Wallnau (walNUT) and Johnny Enlow's 7 mountains business strategy. As soon as you see something turn into a business I can guarantee you that that church or ministry will probably never see the power of God. 99% or more of all churches in America are businesses as they are under the headship of the IRS being 501c3 businesses. There are definitely some supernatural manifestations during worship with NAR conferences and get togethers. So many go to totally dead churches where they never experience God's presence or the people do not worship God with their whole hearts. This is one reason why I believe this movement is spreading. The other is politics adn trying to save the nation physically but not spiritually with repentance preaching and faith. I confronted the man who runs the Elijah List web site a few times and tried steering him to repentance. He is making way too much money to repent. My rule of thumb is always follow the money as one cannot serve God and money at the same time.
@@raymatthews4319 Oh, he got a freebie too huh? I have 5 years unaccredited and get no respect because of that and 3+ decades of my own study and these people get a doctorate handed to them. That is the world we live in today. Has Parsley been to Liberty University? I know some have to speak. Politics is the most important thing to 90% of Christians in this country. I post something political on my facebook and get all kinds of thumbs up so I thought, let's post something preachy. I get one or two thumb's up and sometimes none. There just is so much idolatry in this country. It took this kind of idolatry to bring about the NAR, which was a perfect recipe for false prophets to arise in. Compare what they are doing to the zealots of 70 AD that caused half the Jews to be destroyed by the Romans. While they thought God was on their side because many did heed "the zealots" as Josephus called them, God waited till many Jews came from all parts fo the Roman Empire on Passover for one of the major slaughters that first happened. Many are giving heed to the NAR right now and not just Pentecostals. Maybe Jerry Falwell Jr. feels the need to carry his Dad's political agenda on. There's nepotism for you.
How are we to reconcile the complete contradiction of the gifts no longer being relevant, yet Saul/Paul was operating in them. He doesn’t fit the bill for the supposed biblical rules of an apostle, such as being an eyewitness to Christ, being appointed by Jesus himself. Almost our entire modern church is based off of Paul’s ministry and honors Paul as an apostle of Jesus.
Some believers of Jesus Christ believe that the gifts are still here today, but not to the extent of Pentecostals. I don’t believe in angel feathers coming from the ceiling; barking like dogs; etc. That seems more demonic!
There are a lot of people messing with the Word of God! The Bible is enough. They will go to hell if they do not repent. All of this just takes away from Jesus and His gospel. Nothing can take the place of the true gospel. The passion thingy. (I won't call it a Bible), can be dangerous. I know people who love it. How it came to be is scary. Demons are taking to a lot of people. We always want to be more than what we really are. Wow. Lord help us all!
The source of much of these erroneous teachings which Holly Pivec has ably exposed is the late Peter Wagner. Because of Wagner's credentials and association with a premier evangelical seminary (Fuller), many people including evangelical scholars are reticent to condemn these teachings. The result is that many laypersons think that these teachings are all right.
There all evil tricks to lead us away from the real pure truth and word of God study bible to show thyself approved. No wonder it's written in scripture let no man teach you. But we have to know the word of God. Than we won't get caught up in false teaching.
@19:28 The biblical case for apostles... she's wrong here. Paul is not the only exception. Alongside Paul was Barnabas. Study Barnabas in the book of Acts and you will see that you cannot deny to Barnabas the title of 'Apostle' along with Paul. So Paul and Barnabas represent a different category of apostle, called 'post-ascension' apostle. The biblical case for modern-day apostles is much stronger than the speaker suggests. Moreover, if it is found that Chuck Pierce was correct when he prophesied last year about this Corona virus plague, and that Corona will disappear at Passover next month, then we cannot deny that Chuck Pierce is a true prophet of God. We would have to see him as equivalent to the New Testament figure Agabus, and we would have to admit him to Ephesians 4:11 and 1 Corinthians 12:28. NAR is still problematic, because of the Todd Bentley debacle, but it just may be that NAR is a prototype for true restoration of apostles and prophets as recognized offices in the Church. Finally, 'by their fruits you will know them'. Check out the fruit of Heidi Baker, and I dare you to deny that she is an apostle, even though she explicitly and publicly refuses any title.
Heidi Baker? Shes the one that was supposedly prophesying at Bethal church and sent some blond kid into what looked like a seizure? I'm native American and was raised in that spiritual realm of practice and belief, what she was doing was exactly what we did in our ceremonies. I have been since saved from that pagan demonic worship. It is real. I have seen and been a part of it's real power. Even been healed by it, but that's why its hypnotizing, because the power is real and undeniable, but it comes from darkness. Watching Heidi Blaers fruits are from the wrong place, gives me goosebumps, and not the good kind. Pray for her and her bad influence, it not Biblical or in the name of Christ. Please sir, pray for your protection from this dark power and to stay in the Lords light. God Bless.
some of my Thoughts on the New Apostolic Reformation Movement PART ONE: I agree that there are other prophets and apostles mentioned in scripture. Jesus is called an Apostle as He was sent (John 3:16), Barnabas was as you stated called both a prophet and an apostle, Apollos I think was called an apostle in one verse. I numbered them once very long ago. I don't remember the number but I think it was 18 mentioned in the New Testament. I would like to hear it out of curiosity. You said some interesting things that I will ponder. Yeah, Heidi is an anomoly. I would call her an evangelist though as she as an apostle would have rebuked those prophesying falsely. There is no revival without repentance. I agree Ephesians 4 is still in play. People like John McArthur's arguments against it are an argument from a position of silence (bad apologetics) and he wouldn't win a debate doing that. And there are true apostles and prophets but I honestly don't see ONE in the entire NAR. They told Jim Bakker he was an apostle. Jim seemed to have a repented heart when he got out of prison and is now getting weird again. I do believe God has used Heidi but that I believe is in the office of evangelist as she as an apostle would be doing a lot of correcting. You will see that the apostles of Jesus and Paul did much correcting and exposing false teachers. She may want to see God move so bad that she is giving into some false things. We are probably all guilty of that one. Beware if these leaders if they try to lead the church to go under the Noahide Laws which are Talmudic and calls for the beheading of Christians in its sublaws. Many pastors have okayed them and most of the states in the USA already okayed them. If they lead you back to Catholicism, Kabbalah or Judaism, they are of the devil. Can you send me that prophecy of Chuck Pierce? I do believe in prophecy and I have seen my few dreams, visions and words of knowledge come to pass. But we are told to test all spirits (this would include every person that speaks a "thus sayeth the Lord". I have read the entire 5 to 10-page Kim Clement prophecy supposedly about Trump and 90% to 95% of it was false or the opposite happened. His prophecy was also riddled with false word of faith doctrine which is always a red flag as true prophets will do two things- always lead God's people back to the word of God when they stray from it, and they will rebuke the false prophets publicly as in Elijah's day you had ONE true prophet and 850 false ones. God took Hananiah out when he gave Israel false hope and prophesied the opposite of what Jeremiah prophesied. It's interesting that Clement died very young with a 16-month illness. No one could get him healed. I don't want to say that was God's judgment but it may have been as he was one of the main kings of the NAR prophets along with Rick Joyner who we know has given many false prophecies. Saying God said something that He didnt' makes God out to be a liar and is blasphemy and taking God's name in vain. I hope they know that. Many shall say to me in that day, "...I have prophesied in YOUR NAME..." The canon of scripture is closed so if a word is contradictory to God's Word (how we test the spirits), it is to be rejected. God has called us to preach the gospel of faith and repentance. This we know so why is there an emphasis on signs and wonders in this movement and telling people what they already want to hear about themselves? These are red flags. The revivalist preachers pre-1900 preached repentance and faith and God brought great healing into the land with bars closing up, and crime a rarity. Things have got worse and worse over the last 100 years with the mega-millions of prophecies and undocumented healings. I have been healed by God once 35 years ago and I am not a cessationist as that is false doctrine too. No one wants to talk about things like that when these "prophets?" miss it 80% of the time. Dave Hunt spoke of "guided visualization" way back in 1984 in his book The Seduction of Christianity". I would encourage you and anyone reading my comment to get it and read it. I would say Dave was a prophet and didn't know it. I would also watch some of pentecostal David Wilkerson's prophecies as most of his have come to pass since 1973. He was a very godly holy man but whom God used mightily. I knew of "guided visualization" back in late 1980's when I went to a few churches and people were trying to learn HOW to prophecy. Also a buddy of mine was at a meeting where one of the largest assemblies of God in the country that got into this had everyone sit in a circle with a light bulb in the middle of the room and they were told to look at the light bulb and prophecy the first thing that came to their mind. This is what many are doing. Everything from God is a gift and doesn't need developed. If I hand you a gift, it is all right there. You can turn it on or of at will. It is WHEN the Spirit of God wills, through WHOM He wills at that time and does WHAT He wills. I can give you a story of where I read some guy's mail and didn't know it till I was done evangelizing to him and his jaw dropped. He said, "that is my name". Never met him before. For some reason told him a story of a guy with the same name and how that guy died most likely without Christ two hours later. You can't learn that. It is so supernatural when it happens, that you don't even notice it half the time. Now Clement spoke some things over my wife's family at a meeting they went to about 25 or so years ago and he knew some personal things which shows me he either was a true prophet at one time and ended up like Balaam (fame on TBN; maybe money) or he was working as a medium as familiar spirits can tell you all kinds of things about people that you wouldn't know. I saw someone had reworded a part of Clement's prophecy to make it sound genuine. They surely didn't want to post the whole thing. Almost the whole prophecy was vague when the name Trump was even mentioned and some of the other stuff about Bill Gates, Stephen King writing for God, and Hillary having a testimony is ridiculous. Of course those are a few things int here that didn't come to pass. King still writes some pretty demonic stuff. Hillary is still as wicked as ever and never confess to the 100+ murders surrounding her and Bill. giving many prophecies at one time is called shotgunning that fake mediums do. You are going to get a few right. Any person can make 100 predictions about things and get 2 to 20 right if making that many. The odds are in your favor. It is called shotgunning because if you go turkey-hunting, you don't use deer slugs to take down a bird if you want anything left of the animal to eat when you kill it, you use buckshot that may have 300 BB's in one shell and it shoots a spray pattern out and makes it a lot easier to take down a flying bird.
PART TWO: I've never paid much attention to Pierce but saw some weird stuff on video. I'm no expert on him. Do we ignore the literally countless number of false prophecies by the NAR that has ruined marriages and families and got people out of God's will for their lives? One more example. Stacy Campbell prophesied that Pope Francis was going to become the next Pope I think two years before he was elected in. This actually proves she is false because she is helping bring about the unbiblical unity of the true church to yoke up with nonbelievers and the wicked doctrine of the Roman Catholic church that teaches a works-based salvation, you can suffer for your own sins in purgatory, etc. Francis has shown that he doesn't believe hardly any of God's Word with his many comments. He even believes in evolution. This prophecy probably gave Stacy much credence of being a true prophet but people didn't test the spirits. Why would God go against His own word to not be unequally yoked with nonbelievers and all of a sudden say it is okay now when he is IMMUTABLE, never changing, the same yesterday, today and forever? That is not being judgmental but being godly and true to God's word to reject her as a prophet. True prophets will rebuke the false ones. Bill Johnson's considered an apostle in this movement yet his wife and he teach New Age stuff in their books. God Himself exposed the main leaders of the NAR with the Todd Bentley debauchle as you put it. Not one of them knew what was really going on when they laid hands on Todd for a double portion when he was in sin. This is the exact opposite of what we read in the Book of Acts when the prophets prayed over Paul and Barnabas. They were ministering unto the Lord and fasting when the Holy Spirit spike unto them and said, separate unto me Paul and Barnabas for a work I have for them. BEFORE they laid hands on them and commissioned them to go forth, they prayed some more. Barnabas and Saul Sent Off Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. Act 13:3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. The Bible teaches that God will at times allow someone to prophecy something true and then if that person leads the nation away from God's ways it was meant to be a test. I'm seeing a lot of Trump-worship right now by many. Half of us voted for hi to drain the swamp. So far, no one went to prison that was involved in pedophilia, human trafficking, etc. I am very concerned at this point that we were yet hoodwinked again. Rabbis telling Trump he is the Messiah and so on. People teaching falsely: Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. People prophesying falsely: Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. I'm not sure what this passage is getting at but maybe that much of the church would call themselves "little gods" and or New Thought which is what Word of Faith teaches (speaking nothing into existence) taking Mark 11:23,24 out of context. Only God can perform Ex Nihilo. Notice false prophets is mentioned again a second time with false christs. Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. God Bless!
You have to understand the Greek here. The word apostle comes from the Greek meaning "one who is sent." It CAN be applied in a manner other than the official 12 apostles, just like the word we translate "angel" can also mean "messenger" in a general sense (thus the belief that the term in Revelation chapters 2-3 translated "angel" in some Bible versions should better be translated "messengers"). But just because the word "apostle" is applied does not mean it is a reference to the same "apostle" as meant with the twelve apostles. And there is definitely a difference between the Twelve and anyone else who is sent. As for Chuck Pierce, regardless of what happens at Easter in April (we follow Christianity, not Judaism), Pierce has been called on the carpet for other outlandish things said from the pulpit. I would remind you that a self-professed prophet who speaks falsely (Deut 18:20-22) or who teaches false doctrine EVEN IF his signs/wonders/miracles come to pass (Deut 13:1-5) is not of God. For more reference on Chuck Pierce and others who are questionable, I would refer you to Pirate Christian Radio, where Chris Rosebrough has documented Pierece and others like him, examining their statements with Scriptural doctrine (see www.piratechristian.com/fightingforthefaith for more details)
@@8tive4n Heidi Baker has also claimed to have resurrected hundreds of dead people literally, yet to my knowledge has delivered no medical documentation as evidence.
Painting with too broad a brush is unfair. First, to start off with concern for the revival of prophets and apostles is an affront to the other ascension gifts of Ephesians 4, and a twisting of 1 Cor 13. You must deal legitimately with Agabus, Philip’s daughters, and the more than 20 named apostles in the NT. Many in the “NAR” are balanced spirit-filled Christians with a brain. They approach spiritual gifts and practices with reverent care. NAR has adopted in some circles a modern approach to the sovereign spheres of the noted Dutch reformer and prime minister, Abraham Kuyper-the 7 Mountains Movement. the 7 Mountains Movement is wrongly characterized by hyper-dominionism. Properly understood, the idea is to see dominion as Kingdom influence from a stewardship perspective. Rather than domination, they seek to bring godly influence back to the major social/cultural spheres of influence. It seems that an apologist would agree that the damage done by socialist/progressive influencers in media, government, education, arts and entertainment, business and economics, religion, and family have hurt both the nation and orthodox Christianity.
This podcast is presenting just as much error as the NAR. Haven't you read Ephesians 4...located in the New Testament, also refering to Psalm 68:18 as a mirror image. There are so many holes in this interview until there is no more fabric left. Just as those who teach in error are going to be judged...so are you. I am praying for you.
I have greatly appreciated Alisa Childers’ podcasts, but this one is unhelpful and wrong in parts. I am still trying to understand NAR, and after what was said on this podcast about what Dr Brown said about NAR I listened to Dr Brown’s podcast on the subject. What he said seemed very fair, and he did not say what Holly said he said, namely that NAR doesn’t exist. He clearly speaks of its existence.
Michael Brown isn’t doing what this lady claims. He has spoken out against abuses in the church many, many times for any years and is not essentially “focusing on debunking the NAR myth”; while he’s talked about NAR he talks about WAY more topics then this, most of the time. I’ve seen that most people who dismiss Michael Brown don’t really listen to him or read his writings outside of some out of context quotes. I’m totally against NAR, but Michael Brown is a true follower of Christ.
I am a continuationist, I think biblically we can't escape that the gifts of the Spirit haven't ceased--but all this hyper-Charismatic, prophecy-obsessed, ultra-mystical aspect of the charismatic/NAR church is a bit much. I started to get sucked into it. Not every aspect of it was bad, and I learned a lot about listening to God's personal voice a bit more...and I've been blessed by Dan Mohler's ministry. But eventually I had to step back from ALL of it (Bethel, Dan, Todd White, etc.) because it was exhausting trying to be "spiritual" ALL the time, longing ot have "more" of God and feeling like He was holding back from me because I never got dreams or visions or anything, and I felt like I had to "act" like Todd White in order to be a next-level Christian...even though my personality could not be more opposite. I still believe in the gifts of the Spirit, but I'm not hyper about it----I'd align more with Dr. Michael Brown's beliefs about it--and even if I never saw a healing, or received a dream or vision, or heard God audibly speak to me, that's okay--because He speaks to me through His Word, and His Word is my ultimate authority over everything and everybody. Not emotion, not mysticism, and not through the worship of celebrity Christian idols.
The problem is these movements aren't ALL bad! That's how they deceive! Coming out of RC I cringe at the many protestant churches and flavors as well as false teachings! I rely on my Bible, prayer, and Jesus now and attend a Pentalcostal church but probably won't become a member! I was deceived for too long to give my spiritual beliefs over to any clergy.
After many encounters especially one penticoastal group from Indonesia recently, no, no more charistmatic stuff. Dont come as you are only representing yourself. We do not have to be charistmatic to believe that God still heals today. It is stated in the bible but not all are healed, fact. Hope people will not give those not healed a hard time. The Bible never teaches to treat the sick as if there are 'criminals' nor does it teaches to threaten those you suspect of committing sins if not Confessed to you. The preachers or church authorities should also be subjected to the teachings not only the followers. You are not above the teachings or giving special privileges. You cannot simply threaten people and shame them according to your own desires. You must remember you are not God but just a mortal being like everyone else. Not everyone is called. Stop misused your authorities. Stay within your boundaries. If you want to discipline others, you better make sure you discipline yourself too. Be accountable for what you said and done to others and also your own behaviours. Don't lead a double standard life. Of course they are not wrong about everything but admit when you make mistakes, whatever it may be. If you still want to practise a double standard way of dealings with yourselves and others better quit as you only bring more harm than good.
Dr. Michael Brown can't even call Benny Hinn a false prophet. In fact he calls him a brother in Christ. It's evident and has been proven he is a Charleston. So I wouldn't rely to much on Browns discernment. Brown also says Sid Roth is a Christian yet Sid embraces all of these nutty folks who say they talked to horses in heaven, people listening in on the trinity and people saying they have the warrior dance downloaded to them by God. He believes all of it and helps them sell their merchandise on his show.
@@davidgaston3246 charlatan* 😊👍
I’ve had very similar experiences and have come to basically the same conclusions.
As a Pentecostal Christian, I did receive good insight from this podcast, and I would say that the dangers of the NAR movement have more to do with the abuse of power and popularity, and not necessarily their direct belief that the offices of apostle & prophet are for today.
Thanks for the conversation.
I agree. It’s more about the spiritual intimidation/abuse from the pulpit.
My experience and study leads to this: if you look carefully, leaders of most of the "softer cults" and other Christian like religions act and speak the same (LDS, JW, Catholics, etc). It all starts with believing things outside the Word of God and grows from there, ending up in control and abuse. Plus, all of them talk about a unified church under their own power, esp. Catholics and NAR. They seem obsessed with it. My 2 cents.
But their assertion that they have the same authority that the Biblical apostles have, puts them in the position of rewriting the Bible, something they seem all too willing to do. Both false apostleship and false prophecy give them a stranglehold over those who believe them, of being able to push new doctrines to replace the old ones from the Bible. That's something we need to completely reject.
@@elissabellajoy Hence, the "Seven Mountains of Culture", with no attention to the screaming, red flag that implies. In spite of the fact that the Whore of Revelation 17 & 18 "sitteth on seven mountains", definitely something which should give us pause, the same folks who told us a certain, lawless politician was "God's Cyrus" and "God's _wrecking ball',_ are telling us to "occupy" _Seven Mountains,_ and simply take over the world. The underlying teachings of _Manifest Sons of God_ and _Joel's Army,_ which are the basis of this movement, call for violence, and assert that there is a generation of elite soldiers of God who will take over this world "for" Jesus, after which He will supposedly show up to sign off on our work. This is a complete denial of the Bible's eschatology, but ignoring the red flag of "seven mountains" is a major clue.
Yep that is their beliefs! I almost got sucked in, I praise and Thank the Father for giving me discernment!!!
Just witnessed that this weekend in a church in Phoenix , there were people convulsing on the floor, I am so grateful for discernment, there was a woman who was called for healing and her body was contorted on the floor and her leg was bound in the air on its own and the “Apostle” of the church told the congregation that what we were witnessing was Jesus performing surgery on her in the Spirit and how lucky were we that we got to witness that.
@@MellyMell-1 Mind boggling how people dare to blaspheme the name of the King of kings.
Strait up demons from hell Everytime I see them you know them they all dress and act the same makes me sick 🤢 just the site of them stay miles from these devils 👿
Do you remember what happened? Was she healed? I find all this so confusing. Are they actually healing people? What’s causing their bodies to convulse? Is it witchcraft?
At the beginning of this year, 20 "prophets and prophetesses" were asked to comment on the coming year. Not one of them even hinted about Coronavirus whatsoever. In fact many mentioned things like "increase" and expanded wealth.
I guess the LIVING HUMAN TAROT CARDS were wrong, shuckers. But then again, their psychic readings might be right if they were describing the year ahead for the cabal/luciferins/illuminati.
"let the stoning begin..."....this is why it's very dangerous to claim to be a "prophet", and why you were killed for being a false one in the Old Testament...God takes it very seriously when people claim to "speak" for Him, especially when they weren't selected by Him for that task...
you got the answer right there . NO ONE see the futur but every body try to speak with autority. SCIENCE will get us out of the pandemic. Sorry prophete
"... hold a high level of authority but not a high level of accountability like the Old Testament prophets were..."--- This is about power and love of the praise of men (John 12:43, Matthew 23:5) False self-appointed "prophets" and "apostles" who speak on their own authority and seek their own glory, as Jesus said (John 7:18). Why do the frauds seem to always choose what are perceived to be the most prestigious gifts of the Spirit? They love the sound of their own voices and having control over other people. This is a power structure that exists in every false religion. Sadly, the people who submit to these frauds get what their itching ears are seeking because THEY DON'T STUDY THE BIBLE FOR THEMSELVES. Paul actually was an apostle AND prophet but the BEREANS made it their business to examine the scriptures for themselves. "If you are wise, you are wise for yourself. If you scoff, you alone will bear it." (Proverbs 9:12) Theses are cults where the leaders wield all the authority and crush any questioning or dissent. Best-selling corrupted bible translation, best-selling spiritually shallow music, people paying to learn how to prophecy and do miracles? The love of money is the root of all evils (1Timothy 6:10, James 3:14-16.)
Yeah that’s all they think and talk about .. I have been in a relationship with Jesus long enough to know the difference.. I am not going to explain myself anymore about this.. I answer to God and no man.. biblical deception and heretics are great among us .. I have nothing more to say..
I just want to say that abuse doesn't just happen in NAR/charasmatic churches. I was in three churches who bodly cliamed the gifts of the spirit are not for today etc, and they were incredibly abusive. It is a trend across all denominations.
Can you give me some examples of how abusive they are?
I was not in a NAR church but I was in an apostolic church with a woman apostle who lead the church. It was one of the most abusive things I’ve ever been in. There was a fear used against us to not disobey the “apostle” and “the mantle of the apostle”. It really allows for control, heresy, abuse, and division. I was there for ten years and was in the highest level of leadership but recently left. I was seen as being out of God’s will for leaving. I love listening to these podcasts as they really unmask and undo heretical belief systems I had in my life. Thank you!
It strikes me that the main area of concern is not so much whether apostles and prophets are for today but rather seeing that such offices are governing offices - and the authoritarian approach that ensues. The biblical warrant for believing that the offices of apostles and prophets continue is Ephesians 4:11-13 - but when we look at that passage, it is very clear that such offices are there 'to equip the saints for the work of ministry' - there is no warrant for seeing these offices as governing or ruling offices. For me this confusion and the enuing authoritarianism is the real error of NAR.
Exactly The Five ministry gifts to the body are not in order of authority. They are there for the building up of the body of Christ. One is no more important than any other. Saying that there is no need for apostles and prophets must include no need for evangelists, pastors or teachers. They are all needed today.
Authoritarianism is the real problem.
Thank you this really needs to be brought to light
My family and I came out of this type of chuch about a year ago
Thank you for this insight. A dear elderly friend of mine has left her local church due to this movement and has believed many false prophecies that clearly have not come to pass. Lots of them about the election and the economy. She lives alone and came to be very dogmatic about this during the year of the covid quarantines. If I try to discuss the issues Biblically with her she cries. It has been very hard on our friendship, but I can't see how I can just smile and nod when she tells me all of this.
People dont know this , but many Assemblies of God chuches are affiliated with NAR. And there are a lot of diploma mills like the hispanic Christian University of North Carolina, which is really in NJ. And is also afilliated to NAR, and sell apostolic titles, Honorary Doctorate Degrees for a few hundred dollars, with classes through Zoom, and classes once a month. Just write an essay and bring a letter of good standing sign by 3 or 4 pastors, and now you are a doctor in theology!
🤯🥹😱😥😥
I really like how well Holly simplifies down the exact definers of NAR. That helps me to sort of separate it’s niché in my mind. As when I study, I often see WoF, NAR, and PG as just being so very similar, it’s hard to differentiate honestly! So thank u for really explaining it’s niché definer to me! ♥️
What is WoF, pg, etc? New to this
@@kglor920 No problem friend, I’m happy to explain. :) So they are just abbreviated letters that stand for the most commonly encountered mainstream church false doctrines. Word of Faith - WoF. Prosperity Gospel - PG. and New Apostolic Reformation - NAR.
Let me know if you have more questions.
me too!
I was in a discipleship environment that was NAR, for 6 years. I was all in. I helped lead it. At the end, I was told I was a prophet. The entire time there was a huge amount of strife and disunity in my marriage, because my husband had one question repeatedly: where is that in the Bible? And we were taught that there is extra-biblical revelation from God like rhema words and revelation for The Body. 3 years ago, I felt God moving me away from that group. I was at the church where the group took place for 10 years. I’m still weeding out and detoxing, as far as truth from error. There’s a lot more peace in my marriage. I definitely agree about the concept of “levels of anointing” and levels of power/authority. It was like chasing a high… there was always a next level; greater anointing. And if your leader didn’t see you going higher (in my case), I saw told, “you have been in decline for 6 months”. I was actually 6 months pregnant at the time… that was the very beginning of the end for me in that group. The leader never treated me the same. It became like a hierarchical situation.
These things are very challenging for a new believer. I have face all kinds of hardship dealing with different people within the body of Christ.
Thank you for producing quality material like this that we need for the body of Christ to hear, to be knowledgeable about what's really going on I'm mainstream evangelicalism. I wish it was viral like all of these videos from false teachers, but I suppose its just a sign of the times. God bless you and please keep up the good work!
Yes, totally agree! Please keep up the helpful work!!
Power, Control, Money.
A fantastic interview. Holly Pivec is the real deal.
I believe a lot of NAR people truly love Jesus. But maybe they’re off in the weeds a bit… or a lot. I still believe in the spiritual gifts, healing, deliverance, baptism of Holy Spirit… I just no longer believe they can only happen to or through certain people with titles/mantles/anointings. I believe Jesus hears every prayer and if it’s his will to heal, deliver, fill, etc at the time, it will take place by His Spirit. Whether it’s in a closet alone or on a stage with a leader, or at a table with a friend… it’s not so complicated as having to have prophet or apostle or pastor so and so lay hands on you that one time they’re in town to get what Jesus died for you to have; to get what Jesus wants you to have more than you want it.
We left our church in Wenatchee, WA, Sage Hills Church. They state that they are not a Bethel church but practice NAR practices. Once confronted we were just told that we didn't have to stay. So much damage going on within this culture. Even off campus bible studies led by church leaders and pastors through Jonathan Welton cult leader books!
Wow hi I'm from Wenatchee, I live in Fort Worth Texas now. Praise God that you didn't get sucked in and made it out of the NAR. I happy for.
That’s another thing my husband said: in the bible, if a prophet gets a word wrong, they die. And I told him that was OT, and we are under grace now in NT.
Something I started considering was that Christianity is supposed to be so easy that a child can believe. Following Jesus is simple enough for a child to live for Jesus. And all the training and warfare strategies are beyond complicated. As I was leaving NAR, I saw reading material being utilized that looked like horoscopes.
Old pod but relevant for today. Just heard about NAR with Jan Markell and Jack Hibbs.
The NAR, in part, sounds like a blend of shepherding doctrine and name it and claim it.
What’s really sad is that some of the pastors who appear on Jan’s program are now involved with the NAR church!!! They have been doing episodes with “ Bishop Alan Didio “, and they have appeared on his UA-cam channel. Not understanding how this has happened!!!!
Thanks Alisa. I really love your loving and mindful approach. May the Lord strengthen you to keep up the good work 🙏💗
Wow these words are given to people who dont know how to hear Gods voice so they trust the person giving the word ... very dangerous and shows how unprpeared we as a Church are for anything that God wants to do through it ... unbelievable and sad
The money changers must be driven out of the temple and God's house restored to the house of prayer for all nations it is meant to be. PAY FOR spiritually shallow "worship" music. PAY FOR sloppy, corrupted bible "translation," paraphrase, whatever. PAY FOR classes on doing magic tri...um, practicing spiritual gifts. The love of money, pleasure and SELF drives these fraudulent apostles (2 Timothy 3:1-5). False prophets seeking monetary profits through the scam of false religion.
@@josedopwell9645 True very true
I just left a progressive church and they also promote the Alpha course (Nicky Gumbel) and centering prayer / contemplative prayer and Renovaré (Dallas Willard) I confronted them and they gaslight everyone into believing that they are not doing or teaching anything unbiblical. They are so nice and kind and nobody believed me and I looked like a troublemaker. I was the only person who left the church. Could you look into how all these teachings are connected and do a video? I really need to hear that I’m not going crazy 😜
I too am feeling a little crazy - trying to steer my little boat through all this choppy water of additional teachings. I too am left out on a limb really, longing for connection with other Christians but find there is such a mixture in belief . It is much like a mutating virus throughout the church. Help!
what's wrong with alpha course?
@@ggpmf I also have this question. I would like to see proof that Gumbel teaches anything progressive.
You all are not crazy. This NAR nonsense has a lot of truth on it but it's just like rat poison it's that small percentage of venom( in this case lies) that leavens the whole lump like the Lord Jesus said. God bless you all.
If it ain’t lead by a humble, Christ centred man you probably shouldn’t be there.
Two of our daughters are very involved in this movement. They are two of 8 siblings and they have separated themselves from them and have not spoken to us in 3 years. We tried to visit their church , but it was fake. Truth to them, but not reality. They are word mouth prophecy,God said it thru them, go do it. Tragic! Praying for deliverance in our daughters.
I am 49 years old. I’ve been fighting against this stuff since Hank Hanegraaff released a book called Christianity in Crisis. I eventually wound up in Vineyard Christian fellowship they were started by John Wimber as a third branch of the Calvary Chapel & Horizon Christian Fellowship movement but John started it without the blessings of Chuck Smith and Mike Macintosh. John was more worried about signs and wonders than evangelism and discipleship. Vineyard had a school in Kansas City where you could go there and learn to be a profit. From first-hand experience I can tell you that is not what the fruit of this school was. I seen it produce divorce and a lot of atheists. Then of course Rodney Howard Browne and the Toronto revival came out of that then the emergent church and here we are today.
vineyard is bad, We attended Chuck's and Horizon. this stuff is slithering through the charismatic movement and churches. I would rely more on the Bible and less on feeling. especially in these deceptive times.
😅😮
I was unsuspectantly going to the IHOP for a few years and left because it was controlling and a lot of arguing was going on in the prayer meetings.Thank you for enlightening me to what they are all about.So much deception going on.Movements like this lead to apostasy and eventually one world religion!Praying for believers not to be deceived!Peace,Doreen
AMEN! I can tell you're Hoy Spirit led as this was revealed to you by no one else.
I think the biggest issue is some of this mindset say that Jesus won't come back until the church is in the proper perfected state, which happens by aligning under the proper apostolic covering as the process through which the church becomes spotless. This makes room for all sorts of control and manipulation. When in fact, what makes the bride spotless is the blood of Christ, not your apostolic covering.
Amen 🙏🏻 👍🏻💯‼️
This was great and so informative! God Bless you both! 🙏🏻
For all of you making comments just based on this broadcast, you are guilty of judging, and not researching the truth for yourself. This is but one person's perspective, and to assume that she is telling you the truth without researching it out for yourself makes you just as guilty as what she says NAR churches do. I've never experienced the kind of judgement in a NAR church as I have in other, more traditional churches.
I have been involved with NAR churches on/off for nearly 10 years. I've NEVER encountered even half of what was presented in this podcast. And, what I have, I felt that she took things out of context, or exaggerated them.
In Mk 16:17-18 it lists the signs and wonders that follow them who believe. Many NAR churches that I've been to, have the evidence of signs and wonders. I KNOW that they are REAL, as I've been a recipient of God's grace in some of those meetings. Just because they do things different than you might doesn't make them wrong. In fact, God loves to use the "unqualified" to do miracles thru, lest no man could boast! (Think David, Peter, Macabee brothers, Deborah, Esther, and many, many more!)
Not true you're supposed to judge false teachers and false prophets wake up read the word if you knew the word and if he asked for discernment you would know that these people have led thousands of stray and the fires of hell is waiting for those believe even want to stray and also pray for those people who don't read the word and follow every wind of Doctrine
Also when you really do your research all those healings of fake there wasn't really true healings and most of the prophecies are alike and in the Bible if you get one prophecy van you are false prophet
Brian Simmons is really destroyed the kingdom of God by his false word and it's so sad so many people I'm not going by the original transcripts and it he has led Millions astray and so many churches have followed his word of the translation Bible Jesus warned us that this would happen anybody that reads that Bible is not getting the true word of God I don't even think this man is a true Christian I heard he doesn't even believe half of the crap he puts out there
@@davidjohnson6538 NAR tells you not to judge and touch not mine anointed to cover themselves. NAR destroyed my Pentecostal church.
Great show!! I've read both of Holly's books. Very informative!
Thank you for having her on your show.
In the Old Testament the Priest, Prophets and Kings had the Spirit of God upon them. The children of Israel did not have the Spirit of God upon them. So they had to look for the Prophets for guidance. Under the New Testament we have the Spirit of God in us to lead us. No where in the New Testament are we told to follow the Prophets for guidance. We are to seek God for ourselves and get leading. The Prophets are to confirm what the Spirit has said to us. These Prophets who go around dictating people lives are in error....Rom. 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Please check out Mike Wingers’ UA-cam take on Bill Johnson and his Biblical theological movement. Pastor Mike is a straight shooter who “fired from the hip”. He gets deep. Enjoy! +bromark+
Yes and there's more youtube channels exposing this heretical charismatics like " Fighting for the Faith " ; "Revealing Truth" and" BezelT3" . God bless you.
I agree. Mike Winger really gets into things. Just look at his exhaustive study on Mark!
Alisa it would be awesome if you could interview Bill Johnson directly, Holly may do great research but I am wondering how objective it is and I have found people can draw the best conclusions when the person being discussed can answer the hard questions themselves (e.g Patrick Bet David and Jordan Petersen do this very well). I have purposely been around multiple denominations for 40 years and have disagreed with teaching in everyone...I even disagree with some things I believed 3 and 6 months ago but I continue to seek God and get revelation from His word which changes me and helps me grow. 1Thess 5:20-22 says "do not utterly reject prophecies, but examine everything; hold firmly to that which is good, abstain from every form of evil". Not everything Bethel Church says is wrong while many things they teach are great such as having a love for God and others, I have taken teachings from Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton and applied them my life with good fruit. The message I get from your guest is to stay away from these people completely which I don't agree with as it causes fear rather than a love for people. I believe the main issue comes with people who listen to teachers and are swayed by them or misinterpret what they say to meet their own desires or agree with what they already believe and they can't judge correctly because they don't read or know the Bible for themselves and get revelation directly from God through his word. Do I agree with the need for Apostles? I'm not sure yet. I do believe every "organization" runs more efficiently when there is a leader that hears from God and can direct the ministry. Once you hire an employee for your podcast they must take directions from you based on how you feel God is directing your ministry. However, I also believe each one of us is to have a relationship with God directly and must make decisions on how we believe God is leading us individually. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater but "but examine everything; hold firmly to that which is good". God bless you, I really enjoy your ministry.
Great comment
I'm attending an NAR church and the leadership are rejecting those who don't comply with their beliefs. I've been told I have a religious spirit after I resisted the courts of heaven process.
@maggiem2673 That's common and an abuse of authority. God gave us free will, minds and spirits of our own to use and think ans connect with him individually. This is a common spiritual abuse in nar and I have seen it too. Religious spirits and spirits of independence are terms I have heard thrown about when people dare challenge a leader. These are unbiblical, human invented terms to intimate people to fall into line with something that unsettles their spirit. I'll never forget reading somewhere that a way to follow the Holy Spirit is to follow the sense of peace in your heart. The Holy Spirit leads in peace, the ememy tries to pressure us.
Jesus Christ Himself said: Do not be deceived!!! Wake up people!!! Satan has been dividing the church and its going to increase.
Thank you so much for exposing and explaining this. Some of my extended family is wrapped up in it and it’s caused a huge rift between us. 😞
I'm Apostolic. Have been for 43 years. Never heard of that.
Apostolic Pentecostal.
2:50 Well, ok. Truly God has given his church power. What's a church without power? Jesus said But ye shall receive power after the Holy Ghost is come upon you. And ye shall be witnesses unto me...
Casting out demons, raising the dead, healing the sick. Preaching and teaching the gospel. When Jesus said Greater works shall you do because I go to the Father. Jesus stayed in Palestine. He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And Jesus Other sheep I have...
The church. The apostles went into all the world. The church is still on earth. Waiting for the Rapture. The church was born on the day of Pentecost in Acts the 2nd chapter. The plan of salvation was drawn up there. Laid out. And carried out. See Acts 2:38. That's the apostles doctrine.
Paying money to learn how to work miracles - how is this not like Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8?
The best analogy I’ve heard regarding these teachings and trying to tell people about them is “like nailing jelly to a wall.” I was woken up a year ago to the fact that the AG church I was going to for many many years had been inching in to this mess for a long time. I had the hardest time waring my pastors for many reasons. One of which was that Word of Faith, Prosperity and Dominionism have just enough Truth mixed with falsehoods to help people justify and defend using the Word of God. A person in their right mind can see what is wrong, but these teachings are so alluring they lead people into delusions.
Thank you for your beautiful work Alisa.
Ironically, nar in maltese (heavily influenced by Berber Arabic) means fire!
So in summary the Anti-NAR people do not believe prophets, apostles, evangelists, teachers can and do exist today? I.E. these critics do not believe 1Co 12:28 (ESV) “And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.”?
I am very curious to know who of these critics personally are experiencing at least some of Mark16:17-18 on a regular basis? Or are we going to hear the “that all died with the first apostles” lie?
Just checking...
Praise God for Holy Spirit in me, through me and FOR those that need His love manifested not only in words but also in POWER.
An “apostle” came to our neighboring church and it was absolutely in no way the Spirit of the Living God! I cannot stop praying for people to wake up to the slick and subtle ways that Satan has been and is creeping into God’s Holy House. But after seeing this woman’s performance on UA-cam after she departed, I began to question the leadership of that church and the lack of spiritual discernment! Thank you for this podcast and insight. And thank you for the “additional insight” regarding the passion translation. I went to Mr Simmon’s page regarding his “revelation” and the first thing that came to mind was “he sounds like a Joseph Smith…” 😢🙏🏽
May we Believers in Jesus be faithful to love the LORD, study His Word, & continually pray so that we can "endure to the end" (Matthew 24:13b). May God bless & keep you during these perilous days. 🙏🏾 😃
wow , that Bickle thing didn't age well now did it
Mike Winger has a lot of concern over the Passion Bible translation.
I am reading the autobiography, " Stolen Innocence" by Elisa Walls. It is her story of growing up in the FLDS polygamous sect. The way she describes the "prophets", reminds me of your description of "the authoritarian" stance if the NAR "prophets"...scary.
I was just thinking the same as I listened, in fact, how every single "apostle" and cult leader sounds and acts the same. Pretty devastating to think how rapidly their numbers grow all over the world. How blessed we are to have the Word of God to hold on to.
MANY WILLBE DECEIVED...GOD IMPARTS GIFTS GOD ALONE ...
Deception is rampant today!!! Jesus warned us!!!
Omw this was so my previous church. Especially the laying on of hands and the impartation of the Spirit.
There are so many churches that come dangerously close to this. I believe the biggest reason is the ignorance of the congregation, and the lack of study in the bible.
I have heard some NAR leaders begin to refer to "dawn" and "golden dawn" (0:37) --In light of that it is very very interesting to research House of the Golden Dawn and it's esoteric foundations and usages of "white magic" and allowances and co-opting of "Jesus" in their published belief system. At the heart it is the usually unspoken hidden worship of Lucifer. Isaiah 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
Yes you are correct 👍🏻 💯💯
Could you give us access to the list of the 3,0000 churches that formally accept apostles and prophets as leaders?
Get her book: God's Super Apostles. It's in the book.
Hey, give me the Deed to your House, and I can make a Cult for you...
the Calvary church movement has the music creeping in. C Chapel Chino Hills regularly plays jesus culture , hillsong , and phil craig &dean (modalists ) in their services. They had what was suppose to be a Wednesday night service where they played their music, asked for tithes and offerings then went on with what looked like a PAC rally. The guest pastor speaking actually pointed out the "7 spheres of culture" (aka 7 mountain mandate)that "we need too as Christians get involved in". They had another guest who only spoke for a short time but come to find out he's endorsed Sean Feucht running for congress. Sean is one of the worship leaders at bethel redding.
Thank you. Since Chuck Smith passed many Cavalry Chapels have moved in the direction you describe.
I go to Bethel all the time and I have never heard any of this stuff, I swear!!!!!
@@pedinurse1 Perhaps your spiritual eyes are blinded.
@@pedinurse1 really.... gold dust?
Thank you for your help walking through these land mines. Do
you know Dr. Joe Boot? I am wondering if you hear him espousing the same mindset toward “winning the world” as do the NAR, minus the Apostles and Prophets? I would so appreciate your feedback.
The Apostle and Prophets are essential part of NAR . Joe Boot is gospel centred.
It seems as if those promoting the NAR have grown impatient with the "ineffectiveness" of the Gospel. It's telling that all those mentioned have a tribulational eschatology. Hmmm....
Your right
No, what they teach about eschatology is that we are to take over the world, AS Jesus's second coming, and then Jesus will return to sign off on our work. This is 7M, Seven Mountains doctrine, and it is related to Manifest Sons of God/Joel's Army Dominionist doctrine.
Holly is speaking about "victorious eschatology" as I am listening to this, now. Basically, she said that there are two points of view in the movement, both pre-trib/premillennial and post-trib/post millennial. But for information about the Dominionist part, look into Manifest Sons of God and Joel's Army, plus Seven Mountains of Culture. A good place to find a lot of research about Dominionist doctrines is Herescope (if you look them up on your phone, look for the desktop version of the page to navigate to their whole history of writings.)
So you don't believe in Apostles and Prophets today? how are evangelists, pastors and teachers still relevant but apostles and Prophets are not?
We had the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets who told us what was to come and how to live. Jesus came and gave us the eternal gospel. Now, we have the Spirit of the Lord in us to lead us to all truth. Evangelists preach the gospel and set up churches, pastors and teachers care and instruct from the bible how we are to live and should model it themselves. We prophesy by the Spirit concerning the word and if we see it being fulfilled as to what was written. I Peter 1:10, 2 Peter 1:19, 2 Cor 4:6, Psalm 119:105
I think there's a distinction made between office and gifting. I've heard apostolic gifting ("apostle" meaning sent) being like, missionary callings. And some Christians believe the gift of prophecy has been done away with. I'm not charismatic, but I don't believe any of the giftings have been entirely done away with (although I'm leery of much of what passes as prophecy. And speaking in tongues.) But the office of apostle was limited to the twelve Jesus chose (or thirteen, Judas being replaced by either Matthias or Paul or both. Little muddy there. Not sure.) But this was an eyewitness thing (Acts 1:20-26). This obviously wouldn't be applicable as an office anymore. And from Revelation 22:18, we believe that the canon of Scripture has been closed as being another eyewitness thing. The New Testament books were chosen on their eyewitness status (or those who had access to the eyewitnesses and recorded their testimonies.) (Paul counts himself as an eyewitness to the resurrection by seeing Jesus appear to him on the road to Damascus.) So the eyewitness angle is the reason the offices of apostle and prophet (as in, the people who wrote the Bible) would be different today. Those offices in their New Testament roles would not be available today, and anyone believing they have some form of gifting in these areas would need to acknowledge that their words and teachings cannot possibly be as authoritative as the original eyewitnesses. Sure, God still speaks. But so do a lot of people. We have to have some kind of reliable standard to judge people's claims by. The words of the eyewitnesses recognized as Scripture are the judge. The so-called modern-day apostles and prophets as recognized by this movement and their teachings do not line up with the inerrant Word of God. Not if they put their authority on par with that of the eyewitnesses.
Oops did you nt hear that in the last days there would be false prophets and apostles I recommend seek you first THE kingdom of God and His righteousness. And all these things will be given added to you JUST SEEK JESUS WITH A PURE HEART BE FOR REAL
Amen 💯👍🏻👍🏻
Was this movement started by C Peter Wagner
Hi. One of the foundational verse this movement rely on is ephesians 4. 5 fold ministry? Is this not for our present time?
I wondered the same thing. I believe in five-fold ministry for today, but I don't believe any one person's revelation/prophesy should be held with the same weight as scripture from the moment of delivery, but rather weighed against the Bible and pondered with discernment from the Holy Spirit. I am trying to figure out how the belief in Eph. 4 can be maintained while rejecting the fad and the inappropriate use of power in the NAR movement.
@@hannahm5651 You will know when it is the Spirit at work. I for one am blessed with the gifts of discernment and seeing things in the spiritual but whenever I share words/visions with people I always ask them to test it with the bible. Also, it glorifies God and it always matches someone's personal situation and they go and glorify God. Trust me, you will know when it is the Holy Spirit because He always points towards the bible. The NAR is for about 80% based on experience. Thats kinda dangerous really cause they tell you testing the spirits is not that important. But it is because you would otherwise be very vulnerable spiritually. And that is not Gods purpose! He wants to empower us. :-) Be blessed!!
Perhaps I need to study the verse further, but as I understand it, everything we do, we do for the sake of Jesus Christ. We are only endowed with the ability to make anything about our lives for Christ through our faith which is given us through the Holy Spirit. Thus the things we do and are skilled at doing for Jesus and His Beloved (the Church) we do as a result of the Holy Spirit and are gifted. Some of hospitality, some as teachers, some in medical, and some in accounts. There is literally nothing new to be revealed. The Bible says everything we need to know. Our gifts are much simpler than we like to think.
Such a complicated topic. I agree with many things said here and agree that there is a lot of extra-biblical or non-biblical things being taught/practiced here. I've listened to a fantastic podcast from Daniel Kolenda on this topic (who has also been accused of being part of the NAR) and I also agree with many things he is saying! That is why this whole topic is so confusing to me, because I sometimes just don't know where I stand anymore.
I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for us today.
I believe that some people have prophetic and apostolic gifts (for growing and edifying the Church), but that there is no such thing as an "office" of Apostle or Prophet. The only church "offices" are Elders and Deacons and those are functions, not gifts.
I believe in active evangelism in all areas of this world, but do not believe in dominionism. I am therefore a pre-millennialist, which is someone who believes that this world will continue to resist the Gospel more and more and will degrade before Jesus returns. However, Jesus will continue to build His Kingdom on Earth through His Church which is in this world, but not part of it.
I believe in revival in local communities (as a result of evangelism), leading to increases in salvations and therefore Church growth.
I believe that the Church and the World will always remain separate until Jesus' return, meaning that the Church will continue to be persecuted
Seems like a lot of overlap between the teachings of NAR and the neoPentecostal teaching of the WordFaith movement of Kenneth Hagin which is greatly influencing classic Pentecostal churches today.
I've researched much on this, great job on this!! it's very deceptive unlike our God!!
As a former Evangelical Protestant and someone who had family members involved in the NRA I saw early on the dangers of this movement and knew how off they were. I taught doctrine and theology in my church which led to a lot of questions. I was a faithful Protestant for over 40 years. As I started to study the early church and read the apostolic church fathers, like Polycarp, Ignatius, etc my eyes began to open. I began to see the problem with things like scripture “alone”, ( which is not taught in the Bible) faith alone and all the disagreements among supposed scholars concerning baptism, communion and what was referred to as “ open handed issues.” With some 40 thousand denominations since the Reformation (turned revolution) it’s no wonder there are many disagreements on major doctrines.
God took me on a journey to a place I never thought I would end up in. I now see all the things I wrongfully perceived the Catholic Church to be. I also see how the Catholic Church has faithfully protected the deposit of faith. The Catholic Church has known and warned about the things written in this book concerning the NRA and many other false teachings.
Truly the fullness of the faith is found in this beautiful, imperfect Church that has been here since Christ and the apostles.
It takes a willingness to humbly ask for the truth and to read church history from especially the apostolic church fathers. This Church remains the same concerning doctrine, theology and moral principles. My ignorance has been replaced with the truth through sincere prayer and study. The Catholic Church has been dealing with heresies and false teachings for over 2000 years. There’s nothing new under the sun. As a former Evangelical Protestant I can say there are good churches who share the gospel… they are just missing some things given to us by Christ and the apostles. 🙏
NAR is similar to the Catholic church in that the apostle should be obeyed without question, just like the pope.
The Catholic Church was not the church that was around when Jesus Christ and the Apostles were on earth!!! That is a huge deception from the Catholic Church.
This was a great show. Thanks.
Have you heard of Shawn Bolz? If so what is your take on him?
Is there a head apostle and prophet in this new NAR structure with lesser regional apostles and prophets ? How would it compare let’s say with the Roman structure? Pope Bishops Archbishops Priests? Catholic universities schools and media media centers.
The late Peter Wagner was the first chief apostle. How does the chief apostle compare with, say, the pope? The pope, unlike NAR apostles, does not make unilateral declarations. He rarely speaks ex cathedra, that is to say, infallibly. Most of the papal declarations like papal encyclicals are not infallible. This is why Pope Francis's recent declaration about same-sex blessing has been challenged by other bishops. In short, NAR apostles claim for themselves a power much greater than the pope's.
@@schan5436, the Catholic Church is a false religion. The pope does not represent Jesus Christ on earth. Pope Francis is one of the most evil men in our world right now!! He is a Jesuit, Marxist. He pushes socialism! He supports disgusting beliefs and behaviors. He has said that if an alien species comes to Earth, and they have a Christ, then the Jesus Christ who died for the sins of mankind ( if they will believe in Him and repent and follow Him), then the alien “ Jesus “ would be the true one! 🤯😱🤮👿👿👿👿👿👿👿
Watu wa LRC Githurai mnasia? Sad this thing is in Kenya too..I was nearly sucked in
Hope watakusikia
I don't understand why we shouldn't see prophets (biblical representation) and apostles guiding churches. It seems biblical. Why would this be over in/after Jesus' time? When did the Bible ever say that these gifts of the Spirit would stop? Are we excusing a deviation from God's Word because we no longer believe in physical representations of the supernatural? I do not identify as charismatic and have some issues with many charismatic churches. I attempt to believe openly what the Bible teaches and to hold all teaching to the Bible.
Fighting for the Faith on YT calls the NAR out.
Love the PodCast...
I want for a job interview for a couple of these people that were part of the Nar and some of them were more concerned about how much money they were making for their conferences and how much they were selling books
There are a lot who focus on money 💰. 😥😥
God sort of drop-kicked me out of Bethel Church back in 2011. I moved from Southern Oregon to Redding to attend Bethel back in 2003. At that time they were part of the Assemblies of God. Moving to Reading was the worst mistake of my life. I had no idea how far off base Bethel have become until the last couple years. It seemed to have all started with Lance Wallnau's book, The
Seven Mind Molders. So I have some experience with Bethel and can say that some of us have survived adhering to sound doctrine. (But not many)
The problem I am hearing in this video is, the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater. Elise's guest is clearly not Pentecostal, and that's okay. But if you don't believe in the fivefold ministry: apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, and teachers As well as the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit. She seems to lump today's apostles and Prophets with those of the NAR. But there is a huge difference.
Today's apostles and prophets understand that we know in part and prophesy in part. The standard of an Old testament prophet is different than a prophet under grace. An NRA prophet puts his prophecy on the level of the word of God. The rest of us do not. An NRA apostle believes he has the same authority as the original 12. Today's apostles do not.
In the mid 90s, I pastored an Open Bible Standard Church in Coos Bay Oregon which was very similar to the Assemblies of God. The president of Open Bible was an apostle who had authority over 52 OBS churches and nobody else. His job was to make sure every Church was laying down a biblical foundation. Profits, pastors and teachers built upon that foundation with Bible truth.
We believe in miracles, signs and and wonders. Doing greater miracles simply means more miracles.
We believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, not Dominion theology. We believe the Book of Revelation is literal and not allegory.
But it appears as though the guest is lumping Pentecostals together with the NRA, dominionists and Kingdom Now.
I agree
This makes me think about Kain and Abel.. If we categorize roughly; the bloodline of Kain mixed with powerdeeds, cursing members if they ask questiones about odd practise, turns out to be a very wrong leadership. Abels bloodline, as in Jesus, with powerdeeds, lift people up, from a servants perspective.. Fallen angels seeds (As Kain, human with fathers seed from the snake) in church stab must be delt with. Deliverance must be more emphazised. This is why we talk about "being adopted", the people that repented, and got to be on the bloodline of Jesus, Himself, like in being not just born again, but baptized,delivered and receiving The Holy Spirit.
But what makes one credible in the kingdom of God?
Is Elevation Church NAR?
Yes, and the pastor Steven Furtick looks up to TD Jakes, who teaches Modalism.
No, Southern Baptist
@@jonathandavid9720 Interesting.
Just a thought, could Jesus have anointed Saul as an apostle on the road to Damascus to replace Judas?
Matthias replaced Judas in Acts 1:21-6
I appreciated the info in this episode. But, I have one concern. In Ephesians 4, Paul shares on the five-fold ministry: apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, and evangelist. These gifts of men AND women are there to equip the body of Christ for the work of ministry UNTIL full maturity. We are not there yet; therefore, these gifts still exist, including the apostles and the prophets. There's evidence in the New Testament for the existence of apostles and prophets beyond the twelve. 1 Corinthians 14 gives a primer on how prophetic words are to be evaluated in a gathering. It can be interpreted that Philip's 4 daughters were prophetesses, exercising the office. My point in saying all of this is that "we can't throw out the baby with the bathwater." Just because there's a misuse of practice and authority, it doesn't negate the true and God-given offices of apostle and prophet, etc. If we dismiss (even despise) what God has legitimately given, then the enemy wins in our overcorrection of what is false and wrong.
I think it is important to have some information of some devious teachings that are around. Then there’s also the danger that we get engulfed totally with the knowledge of false teachings, while we forfeit being filled with the truth of the gospel. There is also a great danger of rejecting elements of truth if it’s something it was not told us before. Like, I shared with someone that we need to be built into the building. That he denied strongly, and when I added Revelation 3:12 that the overcomer will be built into the temple, he strongly declared, STOP. Why? Because this teaching was not in his vocabulary though it is clearly in the Bible. The more we know the truth of the gospel the better we’ll be able to detect the heretic one.
the nar sounds alot like the catholic church
Oh no , night amd day! It looks like Woodstock 👍 😳 😕
LOL 😂 Apparently, you’ve never been to one.
I think he means that the power structure is like the Catholic Church
We had that Harold ever all at our church and I could not stomach some of what he was saying
The NAR does not have authentic Apostleship.
I LOVE THE ANSWERS UOU GAVE VERY GOOD YOU ARE RIGHT ON MISD HOLLY FULL OF WISDOM YIU CNT TEACH HOW TO DO A MIRACLE WE SRE NT GOD FOR HE ALONE IS GOD 🙏
I have seen churches ripped apart by this movement. Let the wise beware.
I have been a part of one that was. Incredibly devastating.
Should we blame the NAR for divorces, broken relationships from families/friends. Or do we blame the false theology of those that are divorcing loved ones, and cutting relationships from others.
I'm definitely shifting out of this hyper-charismatic movement, and starting to see these errors of the nar (but still loving the Holy Spirit, and the prophetic) but I can't help but think that the hyper-critics need to also calm it down as well
Having Gifts does not mean you are a christian if you do not obey the word . even false religion has conterfit gifts that move Just like the Pentecostal and chasmaic . which is strange fire.
Don't NAR speakers (false prophets/false apostles) frequent Bpatist Bible College Liberty University?
Really!? That's not good. I currently am wrapping up a AA in Apologetics with Liberty University. Not good if my money is going to this craziness. What college or seminary can I trust?
@@8tive4n I have about 5 years of unaccredited college and was wondering where I could go for national accreditation. I honestly can't answer that question. I don't agree with the Peter Drucker/Rick Warren Purpose Driven Church business model either so that eliminates most churches you can go to today. If you find a college that accredits you on a national level, I would love to know about it. I've been doing apologetics for about 12 years now (self-trained) but it is hard to get financial support to go full time without a piece of paper on the wall. Liberty may have a lot of good teaching but I think it was Falwell Sr.'s religious right movement that influenced his son and the NAR is huge in taking over all of society with their 7 Mountains Mandate Joel's Army teaching. Just look at who is surrounding President Trump. Elijah List wasn't mentioned on this program. They have spread the vast majority of false prophets with all of their conferences and this movement I believe is way more dangerous than Bill Johnson and Bethel, IHOP, Toronto Blessing and Lance Wallnau (walNUT) and Johnny Enlow's 7 mountains business strategy. As soon as you see something turn into a business I can guarantee you that that church or ministry will probably never see the power of God. 99% or more of all churches in America are businesses as they are under the headship of the IRS being 501c3 businesses. There are definitely some supernatural manifestations during worship with NAR conferences and get togethers. So many go to totally dead churches where they never experience God's presence or the people do not worship God with their whole hearts. This is one reason why I believe this movement is spreading. The other is politics adn trying to save the nation physically but not spiritually with repentance preaching and faith.
I confronted the man who runs the Elijah List web site a few times and tried steering him to repentance. He is making way too much money to repent. My rule of thumb is always follow the money as one cannot serve God and money at the same time.
They gave word of faith preacher Rod Parsley a doctorate degree.
@@raymatthews4319 Oh, he got a freebie too huh? I have 5 years unaccredited and get no respect because of that and 3+ decades of my own study and these people get a doctorate handed to them. That is the world we live in today. Has Parsley been to Liberty University? I know some have to speak. Politics is the most important thing to 90% of Christians in this country. I post something political on my facebook and get all kinds of thumbs up so I thought, let's post something preachy. I get one or two thumb's up and sometimes none. There just is so much idolatry in this country. It took this kind of idolatry to bring about the NAR, which was a perfect recipe for false prophets to arise in. Compare what they are doing to the zealots of 70 AD that caused half the Jews to be destroyed by the Romans. While they thought God was on their side because many did heed "the zealots" as Josephus called them, God waited till many Jews came from all parts fo the Roman Empire on Passover for one of the major slaughters that first happened. Many are giving heed to the NAR right now and not just Pentecostals. Maybe Jerry Falwell Jr. feels the need to carry his Dad's political agenda on. There's nepotism for you.
Love this...thank you!
How are we to reconcile the complete contradiction of the gifts no longer being relevant, yet Saul/Paul was operating in them. He doesn’t fit the bill for the supposed biblical rules of an apostle, such as being an eyewitness to Christ, being appointed by Jesus himself.
Almost our entire modern church is based off of Paul’s ministry and honors Paul as an apostle of Jesus.
Some believers of Jesus Christ believe that the gifts are still here today, but not to the extent of Pentecostals. I don’t believe in angel feathers coming from the ceiling; barking like dogs; etc. That seems more demonic!
I wanna whos church part of these NAR?
excellent interview
There are a lot of people messing with the Word of God! The Bible is enough. They will go to hell if they do not repent. All of this just takes away from Jesus and His gospel. Nothing can take the place of the true gospel. The passion thingy. (I won't call it a Bible), can be dangerous. I know people who love it. How it came to be is scary. Demons are taking to a lot of people. We always want to be more than what we really are. Wow. Lord help us all!
Yes, the Passion book ( not a translation!!) is evil.
The source of much of these erroneous teachings which Holly Pivec has ably exposed is the late Peter Wagner. Because of Wagner's credentials and association with a premier evangelical seminary (Fuller), many people including evangelical scholars are reticent to condemn these teachings. The result is that many laypersons think that these teachings are all right.
Well yes and no. The NAR is a loose organization. Bethel theology and IHOP theology has some differences.
The point is none of them are gospel centred.
NAR revelation can supplement Scripture and you wouldn't call that OUT right heresy!!???? Really!
Sounds like (New Age Reformation) to me :)
There all evil tricks to lead us away from the real pure truth and word of God study bible to show thyself approved. No wonder it's written in scripture let no man teach you. But we have to know the word of God. Than we won't get caught up in false teaching.
@19:28 The biblical case for apostles... she's wrong here. Paul is not the only exception. Alongside Paul was Barnabas. Study Barnabas in the book of Acts and you will see that you cannot deny to Barnabas the title of 'Apostle' along with Paul. So Paul and Barnabas represent a different category of apostle, called 'post-ascension' apostle. The biblical case for modern-day apostles is much stronger than the speaker suggests. Moreover, if it is found that Chuck Pierce was correct when he prophesied last year about this Corona virus plague, and that Corona will disappear at Passover next month, then we cannot deny that Chuck Pierce is a true prophet of God. We would have to see him as equivalent to the New Testament figure Agabus, and we would have to admit him to Ephesians 4:11 and 1 Corinthians 12:28. NAR is still problematic, because of the Todd Bentley debacle, but it just may be that NAR is a prototype for true restoration of apostles and prophets as recognized offices in the Church. Finally, 'by their fruits you will know them'. Check out the fruit of Heidi Baker, and I dare you to deny that she is an apostle, even though she explicitly and publicly refuses any title.
Heidi Baker? Shes the one that was supposedly prophesying at Bethal church and sent some blond kid into what looked like a seizure? I'm native American and was raised in that spiritual realm of practice and belief, what she was doing was exactly what we did in our ceremonies. I have been since saved from that pagan demonic worship. It is real. I have seen and been a part of it's real power. Even been healed by it, but that's why its hypnotizing, because the power is real and undeniable, but it comes from darkness. Watching Heidi Blaers fruits are from the wrong place, gives me goosebumps, and not the good kind. Pray for her and her bad influence, it not Biblical or in the name of Christ. Please sir, pray for your protection from this dark power and to stay in the Lords light. God Bless.
some of my Thoughts on the New Apostolic Reformation Movement
PART ONE:
I agree that there are other prophets and apostles mentioned in scripture. Jesus is called an Apostle as He was sent (John 3:16), Barnabas was as you stated called both a prophet and an apostle, Apollos I think was called an apostle in one verse. I numbered them once very long ago. I don't remember the number but I think it was 18 mentioned in the New Testament. I would like to hear it out of curiosity. You said some interesting things that I will ponder. Yeah, Heidi is an anomoly. I would call her an evangelist though as she as an apostle would have rebuked those prophesying falsely. There is no revival without repentance. I agree Ephesians 4 is still in play. People like John McArthur's arguments against it are an argument from a position of silence (bad apologetics) and he wouldn't win a debate doing that. And there are true apostles and prophets but I honestly don't see ONE in the entire NAR. They told Jim Bakker he was an apostle. Jim seemed to have a repented heart when he got out of prison and is now getting weird again. I do believe God has used Heidi but that I believe is in the office of evangelist as she as an apostle would be doing a lot of correcting. You will see that the apostles of Jesus and Paul did much correcting and exposing false teachers. She may want to see God move so bad that she is giving into some false things. We are probably all guilty of that one. Beware if these leaders if they try to lead the church to go under the Noahide Laws which are Talmudic and calls for the beheading of Christians in its sublaws. Many pastors have okayed them and most of the states in the USA already okayed them. If they lead you back to Catholicism, Kabbalah or Judaism, they are of the devil.
Can you send me that prophecy of Chuck Pierce? I do believe in prophecy and I have seen my few dreams, visions and words of knowledge come to pass. But we are told to test all spirits (this would include every person that speaks a "thus sayeth the Lord". I have read the entire 5 to 10-page Kim Clement prophecy supposedly about Trump and 90% to 95% of it was false or the opposite happened. His prophecy was also riddled with false word of faith doctrine which is always a red flag as true prophets will do two things- always lead God's people back to the word of God when they stray from it, and they will rebuke the false prophets publicly as in Elijah's day you had ONE true prophet and 850 false ones. God took Hananiah out when he gave Israel false hope and prophesied the opposite of what Jeremiah prophesied. It's interesting that Clement died very young with a 16-month illness. No one could get him healed. I don't want to say that was God's judgment but it may have been as he was one of the main kings of the NAR prophets along with Rick Joyner who we know has given many false prophecies. Saying God said something that He didnt' makes God out to be a liar and is blasphemy and taking God's name in vain. I hope they know that. Many shall say to me in that day, "...I have prophesied in YOUR NAME..." The canon of scripture is closed so if a word is contradictory to God's Word (how we test the spirits), it is to be rejected. God has called us to preach the gospel of faith and repentance. This we know so why is there an emphasis on signs and wonders in this movement and telling people what they already want to hear about themselves? These are red flags. The revivalist preachers pre-1900 preached repentance and faith and God brought great healing into the land with bars closing up, and crime a rarity. Things have got worse and worse over the last 100 years with the mega-millions of prophecies and undocumented healings. I have been healed by God once 35 years ago and I am not a cessationist as that is false doctrine too.
No one wants to talk about things like that when these "prophets?" miss it 80% of the time. Dave Hunt spoke of "guided visualization" way back in 1984 in his book The Seduction of Christianity". I would encourage you and anyone reading my comment to get it and read it. I would say Dave was a prophet and didn't know it. I would also watch some of pentecostal David Wilkerson's prophecies as most of his have come to pass since 1973. He was a very godly holy man but whom God used mightily.
I knew of "guided visualization" back in late 1980's when I went to a few churches and people were trying to learn HOW to prophecy. Also a buddy of mine was at a meeting where one of the largest assemblies of God in the country that got into this had everyone sit in a circle with a light bulb in the middle of the room and they were told to look at the light bulb and prophecy the first thing that came to their mind. This is what many are doing.
Everything from God is a gift and doesn't need developed. If I hand you a gift, it is all right there. You can turn it on or of at will. It is WHEN the Spirit of God wills, through WHOM He wills at that time and does WHAT He wills. I can give you a story of where I read some guy's mail and didn't know it till I was done evangelizing to him and his jaw dropped. He said, "that is my name". Never met him before. For some reason told him a story of a guy with the same name and how that guy died most likely without Christ two hours later. You can't learn that. It is so supernatural when it happens, that you don't even notice it half the time.
Now Clement spoke some things over my wife's family at a meeting they went to about 25 or so years ago and he knew some personal things which shows me he either was a true prophet at one time and ended up like Balaam (fame on TBN; maybe money) or he was working as a medium as familiar spirits can tell you all kinds of things about people that you wouldn't know. I saw someone had reworded a part of Clement's prophecy to make it sound genuine. They surely didn't want to post the whole thing. Almost the whole prophecy was vague when the name Trump was even mentioned and some of the other stuff about Bill Gates, Stephen King writing for God, and Hillary having a testimony is ridiculous. Of course those are a few things int here that didn't come to pass. King still writes some pretty demonic stuff. Hillary is still as wicked as ever and never confess to the 100+ murders surrounding her and Bill. giving many prophecies at one time is called shotgunning that fake mediums do. You are going to get a few right. Any person can make 100 predictions about things and get 2 to 20 right if making that many. The odds are in your favor. It is called shotgunning because if you go turkey-hunting, you don't use deer slugs to take down a bird if you want anything left of the animal to eat when you kill it, you use buckshot that may have 300 BB's in one shell and it shoots a spray pattern out and makes it a lot easier to take down a flying bird.
PART TWO:
I've never paid much attention to Pierce but saw some weird stuff on video. I'm no expert on him. Do we ignore the literally countless number of false prophecies by the NAR that has ruined marriages and families and got people out of God's will for their lives? One more example. Stacy Campbell prophesied that Pope Francis was going to become the next Pope I think two years before he was elected in. This actually proves she is false because she is helping bring about the unbiblical unity of the true church to yoke up with nonbelievers and the wicked doctrine of the Roman Catholic church that teaches a works-based salvation, you can suffer for your own sins in purgatory, etc. Francis has shown that he doesn't believe hardly any of God's Word with his many comments. He even believes in evolution. This prophecy probably gave Stacy much credence of being a true prophet but people didn't test the spirits. Why would God go against His own word to not be unequally yoked with nonbelievers and all of a sudden say it is okay now when he is IMMUTABLE, never changing, the same yesterday, today and forever? That is not being judgmental but being godly and true to God's word to reject her as a prophet. True prophets will rebuke the false ones. Bill Johnson's considered an apostle in this movement yet his wife and he teach New Age stuff in their books. God Himself exposed the main leaders of the NAR with the Todd Bentley debauchle as you put it. Not one of them knew what was really going on when they laid hands on Todd for a double portion when he was in sin. This is the exact opposite of what we read in the Book of Acts when the prophets prayed over Paul and Barnabas. They were ministering unto the Lord and fasting when the Holy Spirit spike unto them and said, separate unto me Paul and Barnabas for a work I have for them. BEFORE they laid hands on them and commissioned them to go forth, they prayed some more.
Barnabas and Saul Sent Off
Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Act 13:3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
The Bible teaches that God will at times allow someone to prophecy something true and then if that person leads the nation away from God's ways it was meant to be a test. I'm seeing a lot of Trump-worship right now by many. Half of us voted for hi to drain the swamp. So far, no one went to prison that was involved in pedophilia, human trafficking, etc. I am very concerned at this point that we were yet hoodwinked again. Rabbis telling Trump he is the Messiah and so on.
People teaching falsely:
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
People prophesying falsely:
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
I'm not sure what this passage is getting at but maybe that much of the church would call themselves "little gods" and or New Thought which is what Word of Faith teaches (speaking nothing into existence) taking Mark 11:23,24 out of context. Only God can perform Ex Nihilo. Notice false prophets is mentioned again a second time with false christs.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
God Bless!
You have to understand the Greek here. The word apostle comes from the Greek meaning "one who is sent." It CAN be applied in a manner other than the official 12 apostles, just like the word we translate "angel" can also mean "messenger" in a general sense (thus the belief that the term in Revelation chapters 2-3 translated "angel" in some Bible versions should better be translated "messengers"). But just because the word "apostle" is applied does not mean it is a reference to the same "apostle" as meant with the twelve apostles. And there is definitely a difference between the Twelve and anyone else who is sent.
As for Chuck Pierce, regardless of what happens at Easter in April (we follow Christianity, not Judaism), Pierce has been called on the carpet for other outlandish things said from the pulpit. I would remind you that a self-professed prophet who speaks falsely (Deut 18:20-22) or who teaches false doctrine EVEN IF his signs/wonders/miracles come to pass (Deut 13:1-5) is not of God.
For more reference on Chuck Pierce and others who are questionable, I would refer you to Pirate Christian Radio, where Chris Rosebrough has documented Pierece and others like him, examining their statements with Scriptural doctrine (see www.piratechristian.com/fightingforthefaith for more details)
@@8tive4n Heidi Baker has also claimed to have resurrected hundreds of dead people literally, yet to my knowledge has delivered no medical documentation as evidence.
Painting with too broad a brush is unfair. First, to start off with concern for the revival of prophets and apostles is an affront to the other ascension gifts of Ephesians 4, and a twisting of 1 Cor 13. You must deal legitimately with Agabus, Philip’s daughters, and the more than 20 named apostles in the NT. Many in the “NAR” are balanced spirit-filled Christians with a brain. They approach spiritual gifts and practices with reverent care. NAR has adopted in some circles a modern approach to the sovereign spheres of the noted Dutch reformer and prime minister, Abraham Kuyper-the 7 Mountains Movement. the 7 Mountains Movement is wrongly characterized by hyper-dominionism. Properly understood, the idea is to see dominion as Kingdom influence from a stewardship perspective. Rather than domination, they seek to bring godly influence back to the major social/cultural spheres of influence. It seems that an apologist would agree that the damage done by socialist/progressive influencers in media, government, education, arts and entertainment, business and economics, religion, and family have hurt both the nation and orthodox Christianity.
Very well said.
This podcast is presenting just as much error as the NAR. Haven't you read Ephesians 4...located in the New Testament, also refering to Psalm 68:18 as a mirror image. There are so many holes in this interview until there is no more fabric left. Just as those who teach in error are going to be judged...so are you. I am praying for you.
John 12: 14-16. Jesus speak to you by the Holy Spirit. You do not need a prophet. Jesus has you covered.
False Prophets are to be a key feature of the Apostate church…
Self appointed apostles are not true apostles.
I have greatly appreciated Alisa Childers’ podcasts, but this one is unhelpful and wrong in parts. I am still trying to understand NAR, and after what was said on this podcast about what Dr Brown said about NAR I listened to Dr Brown’s podcast on the subject. What he said seemed very fair, and he did not say what Holly said he said, namely that NAR doesn’t exist. He clearly speaks of its existence.
Get out while you can get back to the true word of God and to discipleship and become the true remnant a life of sacrifice and true Christianity
Michael Brown isn’t doing what this lady claims. He has spoken out against abuses in the church many, many times for any years and is not essentially “focusing on debunking the NAR myth”; while he’s talked about NAR he talks about WAY more topics then this, most of the time. I’ve seen that most people who dismiss Michael Brown don’t really listen to him or read his writings outside of some out of context quotes. I’m totally against NAR, but Michael Brown is a true follower of Christ.