When painting the red oxide coat we should have had "Anchours Away" playing in the background. P&S blue looks like RAF blue so maybe the "Dam Buster's" theme would have been appropriate. As to stopping the machine twitching I would think being firmly bolted to the floor would stop it. 👍🇨🇦🍌🇺🇦🕊️🤔🇬🇧🤞
hi there im just watching another of you interesting videos and you sent me into a panic by saying your motor armature may lose its magnetism so iv had to rush out to the shed as iv had my motor armature in the lathe alnight meanig to turn down the shaft to day....job done and the motor still works but it never occurred this could happen 👍
I've since been told by various viewers that that was false information. Apparently that type of motor does not suffer from that issue. Have a look at the other comments.
Re the movement Mr Crispin, remove the pads etc from beneath the machine, drill a hole for each mounting point and install anchors into the concrete. Where there's no safety consideration (such as with a hoist etc) the epoxy in threaded rod type are excellent. Once the anchor bolts have cured wind on a thin nut and place a washer on, then place the machine on top of those. Wind the nuts up and down as necessary to level the machine and then a nut and washer on top to secure the whole thing in place. Now grout under the machine to take up any surface inconsistencies and fill the gap. The issue you're seeing is simply the result of inertia. The table and job are coming to a somewhat sudden halt then accelerating in the opposite direction. The force required must be carried by the machine and when you apply a force to a mass you get a corresponding acceleration. A bump. By solidly attaching the machine to the concrete slab etc you effectively increase the mass of the machine by orders of magnitude with a corresponding decrease in acceleration. If you're concerned about the grout sticking to the machine or floor, put a layer of plastic between the grout and the surface you want to protect. The same deal applies with vibration reduction. Increase the mass, reduce the effect of vibration. The bigger the mass you attach the grinder to the better.
What a great time I had seeing and hearing the sounds that I am so familiar with in the 540. I did my apprenticeship at J&S and built them and its units on the 540 flowline at Leicester. Knowing every screw, knobs, components all the methods of assembly brought back unforgotten memories. I started a face book page for all the hundreds of shipies experts still out there. Were losing a few sadly each year now but the legend lives on with guys like you. Thankyou.
Crispin, someone was having you on about the the pump ROTOR. It is an AC motor, Soft Iron Rotor with the Stator ( coils ) providing the magnetism. Great outcome.
Hi Crispin, well done on the logistics, well planned and managed. Cracking paint job on the extractor. One insanely jealous viewer here, I learnt on one of these in my apprenticeship, they are the best of the best, brilliant addition to your shop. Cheers, Jon
If heavy machine has three feet it should be stable but it looks like it is rocking. So with the rapid change in centre of mass when table moves either the machine is rocking off its feet or (and I think more likely from my lounge chair at the other side of the planet) the cork material is compressing under changing load.
Congrats on the new surface grinder! My 'new' surface grinder is still in the garage 4 years after I rescued it from a manufacturing facility in Connecticut, USA. All original paper work that looks like new and all of over 60 years old!
I read the thing to do is to level the machine up, then bolt it down and use cement to grout beneath it. J&S also said the foundations under the machine should be around 2 feet thick !
@@millomweb Well actually there is an element of truth is this. Waaay back before windows when we used microsoft DOS with the very early generation of hard disks/drives (instead of a pc with two floppy drives). We were advised to enter the dos command "shipzone" before powering down, this command move the harddrive wiper to the safe shipzone otherwise the wiper just dropped onto the spinning platter if power was cut. Dont know about warping disc but data was lost.
@@gregwmanning It was 'PARK' here - to park the HD heads prior to powering down. That was at college with RM machines. Never used it at work. No need to park heads on a power reboot. There is a chance of data loss if rebooting while the disc is being accessed - and that's down to bad software design.
Crabtree isolator switch on dust extractor - is the wrong thing. It should be a motor starter - for the simple reason the latter offers much better overload protection for the motor.
Hei mate! Nice acquisition, wish you to grind happy and free from issues for many years! About the rotor of your pump... who told you about losing magnetic properties... or demagnetize the rotor if you hold it out for long time... was for sure making joke with you. Never hear this nonsense...:-) but make me smile... so it was a good one! That is a short circuited cage rotor (or armature how Ron also say) that get induction from the stator, there is no permanent magnets there at all.
Well... It's just an induction motor. Permanent magnet servo's might be a different thing. Either way I would not worry about it too much. ua-cam.com/video/5tV2W-i8YGI/v-deo.html
To take out the rock from the macine you will need to "preload" the fixation corners. Drill a hole in the floor for every each fixation, put there a chemical anchor, (hole must be deep minimum 8 tilme of the anchor diameter) let it set for minimum 24 hours and after this tight the nuts of the anchors to compress the rubber close to how much is compressed when the rock movement take place. Or... you can run the machine and tight the nuts small amount from corner to corner until you feel no movement under the nuts of the anchors.
Hello chap. Great video. Your talk of machines being top heavy and prone to toppling brought back one particular nightmare for me. My Harrison milling machine was delivered to me by a pallet service. The driver turned the steerable wheel of the pallet truck through 90 and tried to pull it to manouvre the machine, in the back of the lorry. In that position the steerable wheels acted like a perfect hinge, precipitating the machine over onto it's side. Fortunately the only damage was a squashed Square D reversing switch for the power feed. I still have nightmares about it though.
@@carlwilson1772 My milling machine (Alexander Master Toolmaker, basically a copy of the Deckel FP1) arrived on a pallet and I couldn't watch, for exactly this reason. Fortunately my driver was more adept than yours...
Hello Mr. Crispin, Interesting video, thank you... Looks like you have a very nice surface grinding setup now, I look forward to seeing more surface grinding action in the future. Take care. Paul,,
I wouldn't worry too much about an induction motor demagnetizing. There are no permanent magnets inside one of those, the fields are all induced by the current flowing through the stator. One of the more clever inventions by Mr. Tesla.
Let me preface this question by stating that I know absolutely nothing. How important is the slight tremor at the table extents? The wheel would not be in contact with the work at the moment of direction change so all should have settled by the time grinding begins again? Obviously I am missing some rather important criteria.
Hi yes I think you raise a good point. The issue is that in grinding all the small things add up to cause problems. The concern would be that when it shakes that the axes move slightly as perhaps put more of a cut on ect.
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Mr Crispin. Thanks for your interesting video. In my “ideal” workshop equipment list I have included a surface grinder. It looks more difficult than I had imagined but nevertheless a useful machine once set up. To take out the movement of your machine I see the base has holes through which you could put bolts to fix it firmly to the floor. I can’t see whether your floor is concrete or timber sheet but if concrete would be ideal. Cheers.
Great video as always! Thanks for allowing me to be the fly on your shop wall. As a side note I appreciate the censorship my 6 year old also enjoys your videos, he just does not realize it yet.
Pssht whatever. it gets tricky to get in... I brought my grinder down to my basement shop by myself! Admittedly I did have one hiccup with an eye bolt and a chain hoist that sent the base down the stairs at me. I got hands on it but wasn't crushed... Whew!!! I have do e this before mine you, two lathes and a horizontal mill all solo. Not having a pallet jack I'd have to lay down some wood or aluminum diamond plate and drag it along with a winch. Keep the winch in mind next time. They actually work great!
I usually take a bit longer moving machines about. Discussions usually but almost always include numerous pints, a pub lunch, more pints, a BBQ, more pints, etc. If you work really fast, you can do it all in 2 to 3 days
Generally I prefer to move machines by myself, then I can take my time and evaluate what needs to happen. I've had 'help' before which resulted in a machine on its side. I think the biggest thing I moved by myself was a 1 tonne lathe bed using a pallet truck, chain hoist and engine crane. With regard to the grinder would the old method of grouting it to the floor and bolting help
I agree with Alex's earlier suggestion that it needs bolting down. I have issues with the shaper if it isn't fixed to the floor. The method I would pursue is 'bedding' the 4 corners to the floor with an epoxy compound and then fit 4 pieces of threaded bar through the fixing points and set them into the concrete with masonry fixing adhesive (Mason mate) or similar. When the fixing adhesive has set ,usually 40 minutes, tighten the nuts down on all 4 pieces of fixed threaded rod. If your using a system with bonded in threaded rod you can also concoct a levelling/jacking arrangement using half thickness nuts under the machine base. Bolt the bugger down😂
Spot on. We always bolted them down. As the table traverses, there is large weight shift of the table beyond the feet. You are missing a long bent handle scraper to scrape the swarf from the bottom of the coolant tank.
@@MrCrispinEnterprises good, if I remember correctly, you scrape the bottom of the top tank and as you pull it towards you, the swarf drops into the bottom tank off the knee breaker bit :)
ua-cam.com/video/RldfmpmzlgY/v-deo.html - that is an A.C. induction motor, except the shaft itself, the rotor does not contain any "magnetizable" material...it contains only copper bars and aluminium. great job with the new surface grinder !!!
Part way through enjoying this video I remembered that tomorrow I have to move a BCA Jig Borer into my workshop and lift it onto a bench. Without any help other than ingenuity, improvisation and a 5 foot tall girlfriend who isn't very strong. It was at that point I started to enjoy the video a little less....
Someone is pulling your leg. There is no magnetism in rotors of asyncronous motors when no power is applyed. Nothing will happen if you leave rotor outside of stator for any amount of time. Use 2RS type of bearings in this application if you can. Btw, nice little grinder, great addittion to any shop. If i had floor space.....
with regards to mounting of the surface grinder wobble. when I worked in a powerstation years ago one of the tasks that had to be undertaken was replacing gearboxes on a a coal grinder. the gearbox probably weighed in excess of 15 tons. when it was installed on its mounting pads a dam was fitted around the pads and a mix of epoxy resin was poured in and allowed to cure. The securing bolts were then secured and that was it. Don't recall any problems with wobbly gearboxes.
Is it intentional that the thumbnail photo looks like the alien robot overlords have landed and are taking a look around? Congrats. Very interesting video.
Try smaller pads under the feet and if you don't want to bolt it a a thin film of epoxy paste between each shim. The larger the surface area as you have now, the greater the chance of movement. Think of it as high heals shoes, lots of pressure on small given area = less effect of floor uneveness.. Lots of luck!
I was intrigued by the blue machine ID label (MC 5505) on the old J & S 540. This looks very similar to the labelling that Rolls-Royce use to identify their machine tools. I have recently retired from RR (Hucknall, Notts) and one of my last projects was to procure and install a new waterjet cutting machine. After the installation and commissioning, I had to apply for the official RR MC number so the machine could be logged onto the machine tool database. This number had to be quoted when requesting any maintenance or repairs.
12:25 Demagnetising the rotor - I think someone's winding you up there - Pretty sure rotors are not magnetic. I believe the field coils create a magnetic field which induces a current in the rotor which then reacts with other field coils to create a pair of magnets which then repel/attract each other causing rotor rotation. No permanent magnets in use. Permanent magnets are used in some DC motors for the magnetic field - and I'm not particularly aware of the need for a 'keeper' for those either.
I have a hydraulic 8x18 B&S surface grinder...it sits on four 6" diameter adjustable isolator feet..it also rocks a bit at the end of stroke depending on the feed rate. It's a little annoying, but it doesn't seem to affect the accuracy. My opinion is that the rock settles out well before the wheel re-engages the work. It also helps that its a very rigid base casting. Maybe a higher durometer rubber would reduce the movement a little more, but at least it's not walking itself out the door.
Yes I think you raise a good point. I'm going to have a look at the hydraulic valves as I have been told I can soften the speed at which it changes direction.
Small point on accuracy..... Is that mustache .005 mm of off centre? Maybe some Hilti or "Chemfix" bolts or similar with twin nut / washer nuts to secure the grinder in position.Then grout the underside with high density grout? Looks like the issue is with uplift due to enitia on the video? Not compression of the mountings. But, dont let an old retired fart of an engineer send you in the wrong direction. Stay Safe mate. Ant, Cid & the pooch crew.
How old is this machine, and did you change the oil in the hydraulic system??? Even if it looks clean, if it's never been changed the additive package will have been used up. That can cause all types of issues, some of which you describe. If you lived next door it would be relatively straight forward to sort this machine for you, but since I live outside of Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA that's really not much of an option.
I dread to think how many hours of my life I spent using various surface grinders including the J & S 540, possibly only exceeded by the hours spent using a Bridgeport milling machine or Colchester lathe.
It appeared to me that the flattened nozzle on the coolant pipe is at 90 degrees to how it should be. I believe the intent is to dispense a flat layer of coolant between the work and the wheel rather than just a round stream.
The coolant pump motor is an induction motor and has no permanent magnets. I've had motors of its type diassembled for months and they were fine when reassembled. That "perforated ring" is called a tolerance ring. It may be factory or it may be from a previous repair. The piece of plastic around the shaft is probably a slinger that keeps liquid from traveling up the shaft. The mention of the previous side play coud've caused the rotor to be pulled into the field causing it to draw more current and not turn as fast (you mentioned in the beginning about deceleration). Doesn't look like the dust extractor is capable of handling coolant. Are they mutually exclusive? I have one at work (Kent) where dust extaction and coolant can be used together. Nice looking and well featued machine. I envy your power downfeed. Good luck with it all.
Thanks for the comment, Paul!:) I wanted to note that too. In any case, I had my incredulous moment and had to look twice when Mr. Crispin said: "I was told not to keep this out of the motor too long, because it final can demagnetize". In the case of a three-phase asynchronous motor, especially in the case of a short-circuit cage runner, the magnetic field is generated by the stator, i.e. the outer static windings.The chasing rotation-field (as you said Paul, by induction) of the rotor, which represents a short-circuit (maximum induction) finally creates the torque. The larger the slip, the larger the magnetic flow, which induces an electrical voltage, which in turn causes a current in the rotor with a torque proportional to the slip (or in other words: proportional to the size of the stator vs. rotor rotation-field-asynchronicity. Dear Mr. Crispin: Even with e-motors with permanent magnets, removing them from the engine housing does not cause anything negative ... So as long as one does not do the following: demagnetizing goes perfectly through an alternating field (for example via a magnetic field provided by Mains-AC {=alternating current} ), through fixed blows (with a hammer) that heterogenizes the metal structure again or by heating ferromagnetic materials beyond the Curie temperature ... to name some methods. So, no fear:) Anyway, great entertaining video with many things to learn from. Thank you MrCrispin!:) Math: M_{{\mathrm {Motor}}}=\operatorname {Im}(\Phi I_{2}^{*}) (* for the conjugated complex value of I 2 I_{2}) where the rotating magnetic field \Phi is _{{\mathrm {Rotor}}}=\Phi \ \exp(-j\gamma ). So the proportionality is not linear but of an exponential kind.
In my experience it would hurt it as the wheels have enough weight over them to make them sink and then you get stuck. You could however use sand under a thick piece of plywood for getting over certain obstacles or terrain.
I only find that many rollers to be of benefit when the bottom on the machine is flat. When the bottom profiles have steps and lugs multiple rollers become troublesome to keep on top of.
Absolutely love your video's. Not a machinists, I prefer to play blacksmith (for now). I watched your update from a bit ago and recall that you have several more items to share in the works. I will be patiently waiting as many others will be. You are extremely informative and immensely entertaining! Bravo Sir!.
Fairies can take on the same task because there are NO permanent magnets [1] in an "asynchronous motor" (or more known as "Induction motor") existent. Especially not with a "Squirrel-cage rotor". Try looking it up, for example under the same topic on Wikipedia. It's a fascinating read and physics behind (which means it is a rabbit-hole, hehehe ) Also see the other comment on the topic, if you like: ua-cam.com/video/RldfmpmzlgY/v-deo.html&lc=Ugy-hU49K8TxbcBRXSx4AaABAg (Edit: This is too much for UA-cam's technology **facepalm** ... you maybe have to copy the link by hand and put it in the browser bar manually. I double checked my comment and landed only on the video page. The copy & paste method worked). [1] which means: there is nothing that can be demagnetized
Crispin, that's a nice machine. One thing you may want to consider is setting the base on some lead sheet. we did that on a heavy shear and it bedded itself in and was quite stable. I enjoy your videos and hope you keep them coming!
Nice idea, might avoid having to drill the floor. In fact that technique was also used when building granite columns in churches, where a lead sheet was put between each section.
If I had some I may well have done. The only thing with that is though that it makes everything a bit further off the ground and so the sea saw method is a bit harder work.
@@MrCrispinEnterprises Unfortunately much too far from Switzerland, I hope you find someone local who rebuilds that cute machine. Has a good size for rebuilding, too, since most parts still fit on normal milling machine and no 1000mm+ straight edges are needed....
The perforated ring you referred to in the drive end of the coolant pump motor is called a star tolerance ring and is used to produce a interference fit,in this case between the bearing OD and the casing ID. I’ve seen them used before mostly in cheaper machines.
Dead unstable, as Ian said is about right, moved a smaller Herbert grinder into my workshop myself on Friday, with an engine hoist from the back of me Land Rover, they want to pivot in ways you can't seem to forsee. It was more stressful than the lathe move... Can't wait for the Milling Machine.
@@smithofthenorth I found one pic of such on an image search. Size-wise, I'd class as 'big amateur' - but then size-wise - it's what you have space for ;) I might just about have space for a really small mill if I got rid of our large mill ;) As it is, I'm having to walk on top of stuff that's on the floor !
I've had a lot of Jones and shipman equipment, I've even been to the factory in Bermingham. Their new easy program stuff was pretty nice at the time. their old 1300 models on the cylindrical grinders were, and still are my favorite manual machines. I'd like to buy another and probably will. I just have about 3000 square foot shop in my back yard now without a cylindrical. I need one. and one of these surface grinders. I've never had one of their surface grinders. I'm going to keep my eye out for one now. Thanks for the video:)
Nice machine-no doubt you will have a job that needs to be ground!!. That colour looks c,one to what I painted many of my tools with some 60 years ago, and they are still bearing much use. The paint was called Techaloid-not sure of the spelling, but it was used for hand painting car bodywork in the RR , Daimler etc makes. I repainted by hand an MGA fire engine red and the finish was glass-like. I have never since used paint that flowed out so flat, primer, undercoat, top coat and clear finish. Bought in Leeds, my home city. I don’t know if this paint still exists, but it is quality all the way. The finish was far superior to a sprayed finish. Thanks for sharing your machine shop adventures, best wishes from Tasmania 42 South. PS, the paint has lasted along with the Made in Sheffield steel tools, still as the day I bought them. Near impossible to buy tools of that quality and price down under.
Hi, good to have you on board. The actual bed of the machine is just T slotted just like any other machine bed however what you can see here is a magnetic chuck that is bolted to that bed. So for all in tense and purposes yes the magnetic 'bed' is used to hold the job. Not always directly however ......it is common to hold workpieces on angle plates or vices that are then stuck down to the magnet. Cheers.
I'm going from long distant memory as far as installation of industrial machines, if I remember correctly, briefly, drill floor to take stud plates, once cured, run flange nuts down, lift machine on to nuts, level, secure with hold down nuts, fill gap between floor and machine. Ancillary equipment is then mounted on insulated feet. Just need a cylindrical grinder and you will be capable of almost any job.
Try using pieces of side wall of a old car tyre under the machine. Use square peices about 4" x 4". Tyre side wall is tapered and can be placed further under the machine or out from under the machine to achieve leveling. Don't use any steel, the machine will slide on the steel when it is running. The weight of the machine will settle into the peices of tyre wall over time and become firmer.
Excellent machine the J & S 540. If pos the P version unless you enjoy a workout if you have to move the head up an down any distance. I have one of the unfortunately named Elite AR5E tool and cutter grinders which also doubles as a manual surface grinder. Unfortunately I really don't have enough room in my workshop for a 540 much as I'd absolutely love one. I love it when I hear about someone rescuing a machine like this, good work Me Crispin. Oh, and we're currently moving a Moore No1 jig borer which our friend Les kindly donated to us to our other unit.
There are no permanent magnets to disturb on the rotor of an induction motor. The rotor has internal electrical circuits to produce the magnetic fields by induction from the outer stationary field coils. Does physics on that island work differently than over here in the states? Just kidding, I love watching you work
I've always used the holes supplied in the casting to bolt to the floor. You will see the mounting instructions in your manual also calls for this.
Nice piece of equipment to have in a workshop, I’m sure you’ll put it to good use. Looking forward to seeing you use it.
Cheers Kevin
When painting the red oxide coat we should have had "Anchours Away" playing in the background.
P&S blue looks like RAF blue so maybe the "Dam Buster's" theme would have been appropriate.
As to stopping the machine twitching I would think being firmly bolted to the floor would stop it. 👍🇨🇦🍌🇺🇦🕊️🤔🇬🇧🤞
hi there im just watching another of you interesting videos and you sent me into a panic by saying your motor armature may lose its magnetism so iv had to rush out to the shed as iv had my motor armature in the lathe alnight meanig to turn down the shaft to day....job done and the motor still works but it never occurred this could happen 👍
I've since been told by various viewers that that was false information. Apparently that type of motor does not suffer from that issue. Have a look at the other comments.
Moving heavy things usually comes down to the strength of a couple of likely lads
The bloke doing the delivery was a gem. Nice to see people going above and beyond. Thanks for the video! :)
Yes indeed. He did not have to stay
Re the movement Mr Crispin, remove the pads etc from beneath the machine, drill a hole for each mounting point and install anchors into the concrete. Where there's no safety consideration (such as with a hoist etc) the epoxy in threaded rod type are excellent.
Once the anchor bolts have cured wind on a thin nut and place a washer on, then place the machine on top of those.
Wind the nuts up and down as necessary to level the machine and then a nut and washer on top to secure the whole thing in place.
Now grout under the machine to take up any surface inconsistencies and fill the gap.
The issue you're seeing is simply the result of inertia. The table and job are coming to a somewhat sudden halt then accelerating in the opposite direction. The force required must be carried by the machine and when you apply a force to a mass you get a corresponding acceleration. A bump.
By solidly attaching the machine to the concrete slab etc you effectively increase the mass of the machine by orders of magnitude with a corresponding decrease in acceleration.
If you're concerned about the grout sticking to the machine or floor, put a layer of plastic between the grout and the surface you want to protect.
The same deal applies with vibration reduction. Increase the mass, reduce the effect of vibration. The bigger the mass you attach the grinder to the better.
What a great time I had seeing and hearing the sounds that I am so familiar with in the 540.
I did my apprenticeship at J&S and built them and its units on the 540 flowline at Leicester.
Knowing every screw, knobs, components all the methods of assembly brought back unforgotten memories. I started a face book page for all the hundreds of shipies experts still out there.
Were losing a few sadly each year now but the legend lives on with guys like you. Thankyou.
Thanks
What’s the page please ?
Crispin, someone was having you on about the the pump ROTOR. It is an AC motor, Soft Iron Rotor with the Stator ( coils ) providing the magnetism. Great outcome.
Hi Crispin, well done on the logistics, well planned and managed. Cracking paint job on the extractor. One insanely jealous viewer here, I learnt on one of these in my apprenticeship, they are the best of the best, brilliant addition to your shop. Cheers, Jon
If heavy machine has three feet it should be stable but it looks like it is rocking. So with the rapid change in centre of mass when table moves either the machine is rocking off its feet or (and I think more likely from my lounge chair at the other side of the planet) the cork material is compressing under changing load.
Nice new toy. It will wakes it harder to get you out of the shop fro dinner time :-)
Bolt the thing down.
Funny how they have put fixing holes in the feet. Maybe you could use those.🙄
From the land down under 🤯
Congrats on the new surface grinder! My 'new' surface grinder is still in the garage 4 years after I rescued it from a manufacturing facility in Connecticut, USA. All original paper work that looks like new and all of over 60 years old!
My new surface grinder is still with the seller ;) (I'm not not even thinking about buying one !)
I read the thing to do is to level the machine up, then bolt it down and use cement to grout beneath it. J&S also said the foundations under the machine should be around 2 feet thick !
The pump looks like a three phase induction motor (squirrel cage) no permanent magnets involved.
I once had a uni guy tell me not to power down and up quickly computers - "as it warps the discs."
@@millomweb Well actually there is an element of truth is this. Waaay back before windows when we used microsoft DOS with the very early generation of hard disks/drives (instead of a pc with two floppy drives). We were advised to enter the dos command "shipzone" before powering down, this command move the harddrive wiper to the safe shipzone otherwise the wiper just dropped onto the spinning platter if power was cut. Dont know about warping disc but data was lost.
@@gregwmanning It was 'PARK' here - to park the HD heads prior to powering down. That was at college with RM machines. Never used it at work.
No need to park heads on a power reboot. There is a chance of data loss if rebooting while the disc is being accessed - and that's down to bad software design.
Crabtree isolator switch on dust extractor - is the wrong thing. It should be a motor starter - for the simple reason the latter offers much better overload protection for the motor.
Hei mate! Nice acquisition, wish you to grind happy and free from issues for many years!
About the rotor of your pump... who told you about losing magnetic properties... or demagnetize the rotor if you hold it out for long time... was for sure making joke with you. Never hear this nonsense...:-) but make me smile... so it was a good one!
That is a short circuited cage rotor (or armature how Ron also say) that get induction from the stator, there is no permanent magnets there at all.
"Don't keep the armature out of the motor too long or it will demagnetize." Good one! :-)
Well... It's just an induction motor. Permanent magnet servo's might be a different thing. Either way I would not worry about it too much.
ua-cam.com/video/5tV2W-i8YGI/v-deo.html
Almost nothing is more satisfying than successfully moving heavy machines. 👍👍👏😀
What a beautiful machine.
Put the J&S on jack bolts and then run grout underneath the bearing points.
To take out the rock from the macine you will need to "preload" the fixation corners. Drill a hole in the floor for every each fixation, put there a chemical anchor, (hole must be deep minimum 8 tilme of the anchor diameter) let it set for minimum 24 hours and after this tight the nuts of the anchors to compress the rubber close to how much is compressed when the rock movement take place.
Or... you can run the machine and tight the nuts small amount from corner to corner until you feel no movement under the nuts of the anchors.
Hello chap. Great video. Your talk of machines being top heavy and prone to toppling brought back one particular nightmare for me. My Harrison milling machine was delivered to me by a pallet service. The driver turned the steerable wheel of the pallet truck through 90 and tried to pull it to manouvre the machine, in the back of the lorry. In that position the steerable wheels acted like a perfect hinge, precipitating the machine over onto it's side. Fortunately the only damage was a squashed Square D reversing switch for the power feed. I still have nightmares about it though.
Not good!
@@MrCrispinEnterprises No. It was flippin' horrendous, I can tell you.
@@carlwilson1772 My milling machine (Alexander Master Toolmaker, basically a copy of the Deckel FP1) arrived on a pallet and I couldn't watch, for exactly this reason. Fortunately my driver was more adept than yours...
@@cooperised Fortunately in my case the driver wasn't hurt. Luckily the machine only suffered minor cosmetic damage.
Hello Mr. Crispin,
Interesting video, thank you... Looks like you have a very nice surface grinding setup now, I look forward to seeing more surface grinding action in the future.
Take care.
Paul,,
Ian has helped me out with moves on a number of occasions. Great guy, proper grafter. Nice to see him still going!
I wouldn't worry too much about an induction motor demagnetizing.
There are no permanent magnets inside one of those, the fields are all induced by the current flowing through the stator. One of the more clever inventions by Mr. Tesla.
Let me preface this question by stating that I know absolutely nothing.
How important is the slight tremor at the table extents? The wheel would not be in contact with the work at the moment of direction change so all should have settled by the time grinding begins again?
Obviously I am missing some rather important criteria.
Hi yes I think you raise a good point. The issue is that in grinding all the small things add up to cause problems. The concern would be that when it shakes that the axes move slightly as perhaps put more of a cut on ect.
Happy new year❤️
Mene abhi abhi kill chor or casetoo ki mixing voice over dena start Kiya he 🌹jara video dekh kar batana kuch kami he to jarur batana please video Puri dekhna🤍❤️🧡💛🤍💚💙
Mr Crispin. Thanks for your interesting video. In my “ideal” workshop equipment list I have included a surface grinder. It looks more difficult than I had imagined but nevertheless a useful machine once set up. To take out the movement of your machine I see the base has holes through which you could put bolts to fix it firmly to the floor. I can’t see whether your floor is concrete or timber sheet but if concrete would be ideal. Cheers.
Ok i'm 46 seconds in and laughing my ass off. I think the beeps are supposed to replace the square words not enhance them. :-)
That's a beauty!
ATB, Robin
Great video as always! Thanks for allowing me to be the fly on your shop wall. As a side note I appreciate the censorship my 6 year old also enjoys your videos, he just does not realize it yet.
Lol
Lol
Pssht whatever. it gets tricky to get in... I brought my grinder down to my basement shop by myself! Admittedly I did have one hiccup with an eye bolt and a chain hoist that sent the base down the stairs at me. I got hands on it but wasn't crushed... Whew!!! I have do e this before mine you, two lathes and a horizontal mill all solo. Not having a pallet jack I'd have to lay down some wood or aluminum diamond plate and drag it along with a winch. Keep the winch in mind next time. They actually work great!
I usually take a bit longer moving machines about. Discussions usually but almost always include numerous pints, a pub lunch, more pints, a BBQ, more pints, etc. If you work really fast, you can do it all in 2 to 3 days
Generally I prefer to move machines by myself, then I can take my time and evaluate what needs to happen. I've had 'help' before which resulted in a machine on its side. I think the biggest thing I moved by myself was a 1 tonne lathe bed using a pallet truck, chain hoist and engine crane. With regard to the grinder would the old method of grouting it to the floor and bolting help
I agree with Alex's earlier suggestion that it needs bolting down. I have issues with the shaper if it isn't fixed to the floor. The method I would pursue is 'bedding' the 4 corners to the floor with an epoxy compound and then fit 4 pieces of threaded bar through the fixing points and set them into the concrete with masonry fixing adhesive (Mason mate) or similar. When the fixing adhesive has set ,usually 40 minutes, tighten the nuts down on all 4 pieces of fixed threaded rod. If your using a system with bonded in threaded rod you can also concoct a levelling/jacking arrangement using half thickness nuts under the machine base. Bolt the bugger down😂
Spot on. We always bolted them down. As the table traverses, there is large weight shift of the table beyond the feet. You are missing a long bent handle scraper to scrape the swarf from the bottom of the coolant tank.
Not so fast! Just do happens I was given one of those rakes about 6 hours ago!
Bloody decent machine! Used similar J&S many times in my younger years!
@@MrCrispinEnterprises good, if I remember correctly, you scrape the bottom of the top tank and as you pull it towards you, the swarf drops into the bottom tank off the knee breaker bit :)
Yes correct it's a neat design!
ua-cam.com/video/RldfmpmzlgY/v-deo.html - that is an A.C. induction motor, except the shaft itself, the rotor does not contain any "magnetizable" material...it contains only copper bars and aluminium. great job with the new surface grinder !!!
Part way through enjoying this video I remembered that tomorrow I have to move a BCA Jig Borer into my workshop and lift it onto a bench. Without any help other than ingenuity, improvisation and a 5 foot tall girlfriend who isn't very strong. It was at that point I started to enjoy the video a little less....
Someone is pulling your leg. There is no magnetism in rotors of asyncronous motors when no power is applyed. Nothing will happen if you leave rotor outside of stator for any amount of time. Use 2RS type of bearings in this application if you can.
Btw, nice little grinder, great addittion to any shop. If i had floor space.....
Mr Crispin with dirty hands and grubby marks on his Jeans {8-() thin edge of the wedge stuff! There will be evidence of perspiration next!
The coolant punp is a standard 3 phase induction design. The rotor is not required to be magnetic, so no worry about dispantling! David CEng!
with regards to mounting of the surface grinder wobble.
when I worked in a powerstation years ago one of the tasks that had to be undertaken was replacing gearboxes on a a coal grinder.
the gearbox probably weighed in excess of 15 tons.
when it was installed on its mounting pads a dam was fitted around the pads and a mix of epoxy resin was poured in and allowed to cure.
The securing bolts were then secured and that was it.
Don't recall any problems with wobbly gearboxes.
Is it intentional that the thumbnail photo looks like the alien robot overlords have landed and are taking a look around?
Congrats.
Very interesting video.
Really nice machine Mr Crispin, thanks for the informative vid, shave the tash off, it puts years on you,
Almost catching up with my mental age!
I give it.....oh, about 2 weeks before that extractor is evicted to a hut outside.
Get a DOL starter with overload on it as well
🇬🇧😐
Try smaller pads under the feet and if you don't want to bolt it a a thin film of epoxy paste between each shim.
The larger the surface area as you have now, the greater the chance of movement. Think of it as high heals shoes, lots of pressure on small given area = less effect of floor uneveness..
Lots of luck!
Every time I get a little twitchy I just reach for the bottle of Crown Royal works every time.
I was intrigued by the blue machine ID label (MC 5505) on the old J & S 540. This looks very similar to the labelling that Rolls-Royce use to identify their machine tools. I have recently retired from RR (Hucknall, Notts) and one of my last projects was to procure and install a new waterjet cutting machine. After the installation and commissioning, I had to apply for the official RR MC number so the machine could be logged onto the machine tool database. This number had to be quoted when requesting any maintenance or repairs.
Good geuss! It's a machine that RR scrapped
I have drill and put bolds with a two part epoxy resin to make the machine from moving
Ahhh...Jones & Shipman...a thing of great beauty!
Bolt the blighter down, make the workshop foundations "twitch".
There's a gag for you Crispin - as you twitch on camera in sync with the grindr.
Impressive machine, thanks.
That powerfeed up and down is really a nice feature.
At 10 thou per turn of the hand wheel it makes a big difference!
Think you need to bolt that machine down into the floor to help stop the twitch given its high centre of gravity
12:25 Demagnetising the rotor - I think someone's winding you up there - Pretty sure rotors are not magnetic. I believe the field coils create a magnetic field which induces a current in the rotor which then reacts with other field coils to create a pair of magnets which then repel/attract each other causing rotor rotation. No permanent magnets in use.
Permanent magnets are used in some DC motors for the magnetic field - and I'm not particularly aware of the need for a 'keeper' for those either.
Yes I think you are not the first to say that!
@@MrCrispinEnterprises So I now see :)
salut pour la machin tu la mais de niveau et tu la botte dans le plancher bon journée
Great addition to your shop…damn good paint job to boot 👍
I have a hydraulic 8x18 B&S surface grinder...it sits on four 6" diameter adjustable isolator feet..it also rocks a bit at the end of stroke depending on the feed rate. It's a little annoying, but it doesn't seem to affect the accuracy. My opinion is that the rock settles out well before the wheel re-engages the work. It also helps that its a very rigid base casting. Maybe a higher durometer rubber would reduce the movement a little more, but at least it's not walking itself out the door.
Yes I think you raise a good point. I'm going to have a look at the hydraulic valves as I have been told I can soften the speed at which it changes direction.
Thank you for making the videos.
Small point on accuracy..... Is that mustache .005 mm of off centre? Maybe some Hilti or "Chemfix" bolts or similar with twin nut / washer nuts to secure the grinder in position.Then grout the underside with high density grout? Looks like the issue is with uplift due to enitia on the video? Not compression of the mountings. But, dont let an old retired fart of an engineer send you in the wrong direction. Stay Safe mate. Ant, Cid & the pooch crew.
Nice acquisition Mr. C. Very smooth and capable. Loved the thorough run down of the controls. Now go grind something!
How old is this machine, and did you change the oil in the hydraulic system??? Even if it looks clean, if it's never been changed the additive package will have been used up. That can cause all types of issues, some of which you describe. If you lived next door it would be relatively straight forward to sort this machine for you, but since I live outside of Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA that's really not much of an option.
Hi, yes I changed the hydraulic oil. Cheers
I dread to think how many hours of my life I spent using various surface grinders including the J & S 540, possibly only exceeded by the hours spent using a Bridgeport milling machine or Colchester lathe.
Every toolroom I have worked in had those machines as standard!!
It appeared to me that the flattened nozzle on the coolant pipe is at 90 degrees to how it should be. I believe the intent is to dispense a flat layer of coolant between the work and the wheel rather than just a round stream.
If you turn the pressure up a bit you get a nice flat pattern roughly where the wheel is but the pressure makes it splash around a bit.
@@MrCrispinEnterprises Why wasn't the coolant draining back into the tank - instead, sloshing around on the table ? Partially blocked return pipes ?
The coolant pump motor is an induction motor and has no permanent magnets. I've had motors of its type diassembled for months and they were fine when reassembled.
That "perforated ring" is called a tolerance ring. It may be factory or it may be from a previous repair.
The piece of plastic around the shaft is probably a slinger that keeps liquid from traveling up the shaft.
The mention of the previous side play coud've caused the rotor to be pulled into the field causing it to draw more current and not turn as fast (you mentioned in the beginning about deceleration).
Doesn't look like the dust extractor is capable of handling coolant. Are they mutually exclusive? I have one at work (Kent) where dust extaction and coolant can be used together.
Nice looking and well featued machine. I envy your power downfeed. Good luck with it all.
Thanks for the comment, Paul!:) I wanted to note that too. In any case, I had my incredulous moment and had to look twice when Mr. Crispin said: "I was told not to keep this out of the motor too long, because it final can demagnetize". In the case of a three-phase asynchronous motor, especially in the case of a short-circuit cage runner, the magnetic field is generated by the stator, i.e. the outer static windings.The chasing rotation-field (as you said Paul, by induction) of the rotor, which represents a short-circuit (maximum induction) finally creates the torque. The larger the slip, the larger the magnetic flow, which induces an electrical voltage, which in turn causes a current in the rotor with a torque proportional to the slip (or in other words: proportional to the size of the stator vs. rotor rotation-field-asynchronicity.
Dear Mr. Crispin: Even with e-motors with permanent magnets, removing them from the engine housing does not cause anything negative ... So as long as one does not do the following: demagnetizing goes perfectly through an alternating field (for example via a magnetic field provided by Mains-AC {=alternating current} ), through fixed blows (with a hammer) that heterogenizes the metal structure again or by heating ferromagnetic materials beyond the Curie temperature ... to name some methods.
So, no fear:)
Anyway, great entertaining video with many things to learn from. Thank you MrCrispin!:)
Math: M_{{\mathrm {Motor}}}=\operatorname {Im}(\Phi I_{2}^{*}) (* for the conjugated complex value of I 2 I_{2}) where the rotating magnetic field \Phi is _{{\mathrm {Rotor}}}=\Phi \ \exp(-j\gamma ). So the proportionality is not linear but of an exponential kind.
I have the same model. Is the auto oiler fully automatic? Hard to tell if mine is working and can't find any info.
I've got no idea to be honest!
Great video, well done on the upgrade.
Bolt the grinder down maybe?
Innocent question. Would a layer of Sand on the stone/block path help or hurt mobility?
In my experience it would hurt it as the wheels have enough weight over them to make them sink and then you get stuck. You could however use sand under a thick piece of plywood for getting over certain obstacles or terrain.
Excellent 👍👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌
Plz can u help me with the colour code for Jones shipman blue 🔵...... It'll be a great help for me if u can share the details.....
Have a look on the Paragon Paint website. They call it Jones and Shipman Blue. From memory it was something like 'midnight blue'
@@MrCrispinEnterprises thank u sir 🙏
If you want to roll a machine around, get at least 3 or more pipes to roll on. A good master rigger might help .
I only find that many rollers to be of benefit when the bottom on the machine is flat. When the bottom profiles have steps and lugs multiple rollers become troublesome to keep on top of.
Brilliant! Well done Crispin!
EL BIGOTE ES MORTAL🤦♂️
"Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world." - Archimedes
(I guess he had a surface grinder too.)
WHAT THE HELLS THAT UNDER YER NOSE 😖
Adjustable feet that what I did
Absolutely love your video's. Not a machinists, I prefer to play blacksmith (for now). I watched your update from a bit ago and recall that you have several more items to share in the works. I will be patiently waiting as many others will be. You are extremely informative and immensely entertaining! Bravo Sir!.
Thanks
careful dave....thats what i said...im just going to smith...*stares at monarch lathe rebuild* yup..just going to smith....
A steel ring “keeper” can be slipped over the rotor as it is removed to prevent demagnetizing the rotor.
Fairies can take on the same task because there are NO permanent magnets [1] in an "asynchronous motor" (or more known as "Induction motor") existent.
Especially not with a "Squirrel-cage rotor". Try looking it up, for example under the same topic on Wikipedia. It's a fascinating read and physics behind (which means it is a rabbit-hole, hehehe )
Also see the other comment on the topic, if you like: ua-cam.com/video/RldfmpmzlgY/v-deo.html&lc=Ugy-hU49K8TxbcBRXSx4AaABAg (Edit: This is too much for UA-cam's technology **facepalm** ... you maybe have to copy the link by hand and put it in the browser bar manually. I double checked my comment and landed only on the video page. The copy & paste method worked).
[1] which means: there is nothing that can be demagnetized
Crispin, that's a nice machine. One thing you may want to consider is setting the base on some lead sheet. we did that on a heavy shear and it bedded itself in and was quite stable. I enjoy your videos and hope you keep them coming!
Thanks and interesting point about the lead.
Nice idea, might avoid having to drill the floor. In fact that technique was also used when building granite columns in churches, where a lead sheet was put between each section.
What a nice color blue.
Lovely machine
Why not use building scaffold steel pipe?
If I had some I may well have done. The only thing with that is though that it makes everything a bit further off the ground and so the sea saw method is a bit harder work.
What happens to the broken one?
Nice small machine that would be worth rebuilding IMO.
Struggling to find anyone to take it!
@@MrCrispinEnterprises Unfortunately much too far from Switzerland, I hope you find someone local who rebuilds that cute machine.
Has a good size for rebuilding, too, since most parts still fit on normal milling machine and no 1000mm+ straight edges are needed....
The perforated ring you referred to in the drive end of the coolant pump motor is called a star tolerance ring and is used to produce a interference fit,in this case between the bearing OD and the casing ID. I’ve seen them used before mostly in cheaper machines.
Thanks. I geuss the question is was it in there from new?
I think it's a good idea - so bearings don't need hammering in or out !
Are you choosing lathes by dimensions of the workshop door?
It's definitely a consideration!
It's definitely a consideration!
Dead unstable, as Ian said is about right, moved a smaller Herbert grinder into my workshop myself on Friday, with an engine hoist from the back of me Land Rover, they want to pivot in ways you can't seem to forsee. It was more stressful than the lathe move... Can't wait for the Milling Machine.
What flavour mill have you ?
@@millomweb I don't have one yet, looking at a Harrison or similar, I was referring to the fact It will be the hardest to move I think
@@smithofthenorth Vertical/Horiz/combi ?
@@millomweb combi
@@smithofthenorth I found one pic of such on an image search. Size-wise, I'd class as 'big amateur' - but then size-wise - it's what you have space for ;)
I might just about have space for a really small mill if I got rid of our large mill ;) As it is, I'm having to walk on top of stuff that's on the floor !
I've had a lot of Jones and shipman equipment, I've even been to the factory in Bermingham. Their new easy program stuff was pretty nice at the time. their old 1300 models on the cylindrical grinders were, and still are my favorite manual machines. I'd like to buy another and probably will. I just have about 3000 square foot shop in my back yard now without a cylindrical. I need one. and one of these surface grinders. I've never had one of their surface grinders. I'm going to keep my eye out for one now. Thanks for the video:)
Nice machine-no doubt you will have a job that needs to be ground!!. That colour looks c,one to what I painted many of my tools with some 60 years ago, and they are still bearing much use. The paint was called Techaloid-not sure of the spelling, but it was used for hand painting car bodywork in the RR , Daimler etc makes. I repainted by hand an MGA fire engine red and the finish was glass-like. I have never since used paint that flowed out so flat, primer, undercoat, top coat and clear finish. Bought in Leeds, my home city. I don’t know if this paint still exists, but it is quality all the way. The finish was far superior to a sprayed finish. Thanks for sharing your machine shop adventures, best wishes from Tasmania 42 South. PS, the paint has lasted along with the Made in Sheffield steel tools, still as the day I bought them. Near impossible to buy tools of that quality and price down under.
Hello Crispin, I am a new subscriber, is the bed of the grinder magnetic and that is how the job is held ? , 👍.
Hi, good to have you on board. The actual bed of the machine is just T slotted just like any other machine bed however what you can see here is a magnetic chuck that is bolted to that bed. So for all in tense and purposes yes the magnetic 'bed' is used to hold the job. Not always directly however ......it is common to hold workpieces on angle plates or vices that are then stuck down to the magnet. Cheers.
@@MrCrispinEnterprises thanks for your reply and information, keep up with your videos 👍.
Very nice machine . Cheers .
I'm going from long distant memory as far as installation of industrial machines, if I remember correctly, briefly, drill floor to take stud plates, once cured, run flange nuts down, lift machine on to nuts, level, secure with hold down nuts, fill gap between floor and machine. Ancillary equipment is then mounted on insulated feet. Just need a cylindrical grinder and you will be capable of almost any job.
Nice machine indeed!
Thank you
Try using pieces of side wall of a old car tyre under the machine.
Use square peices about 4" x 4".
Tyre side wall is tapered and can be placed further under the machine or out from under the machine to achieve leveling. Don't use any steel, the machine will slide on the steel when it is running.
The weight of the machine will settle into the peices of tyre wall over time and become firmer.
Congratulations on your new grinder swap. I admire the hard work of moving those heavy machines out and in by good planning and muscle power only.
Excellent machine the J & S 540. If pos the P version unless you enjoy a workout if you have to move the head up an down any distance. I have one of the unfortunately named Elite AR5E tool and cutter grinders which also doubles as a manual surface grinder. Unfortunately I really don't have enough room in my workshop for a 540 much as I'd absolutely love one.
I love it when I hear about someone rescuing a machine like this, good work Me Crispin. Oh, and we're currently moving a Moore No1 jig borer which our friend Les kindly donated to us to our other unit.
There are no permanent magnets to disturb on the rotor of an induction motor. The rotor has internal electrical circuits to produce the magnetic fields by induction from the outer stationary field coils. Does physics on that island work differently than over here in the states? Just kidding, I love watching you work
Why was I not a subscriber brill channel
Thanks
Bolt it down
I would wager the manufacturer put bolt holes on the machine for a reason, I think you should use them and your problems will go away :)