Why Toe In MAINS and Do IN Walls NEED Toe in? Home Theater Setup. Home Theater Gurus.
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
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Number 1 comment, nice work thanks
Ha.. yep you win the comment race. :) . Thanks!
I just got a Goldenear setup a couple weeks ago. Three Triton One Reference speakers across the front - one on either side of a 120" projection screen and one behind (Supersat 3's for surround / Atmos). Sandy Gross (designer of the speaker) talked about toeing in the speakers to aim directly at the main listening position for the same reasons described in this video. Even though it seemed odd, I tried it and really like the results. I don't know if it works for all speakers but Sany said the Tritons are designed to be listened to on-axis. Another audio legend - Ken Ishiwata (Marantz), always toed-in his speakers so much that the point at which the on-axis response "crosses" is in front of the main listening position. That still seems weird to me, even though I totally respect the guy.
I own the complete Polk LSIM line for home theater and reviewers have said the fronts Polk LSIM 707s dont like more than 5 percent toe in. Not sure why this a thing but this video has made me rethink such a small toe in angle. They are huge speakers and I can only sit about 7 ft away so maybe that has something to do with not much toe in needed? I only have one seat in my theater.
Toe in depends on distance to side wall, how the walls are treated, how far in angle the mains are spread, how many seats you need to get great sound too and more. Toe them in and listen to how it changes. For home theater we want even pink noise, for two channel listen to how the sound stage and imaging change.
Excellent video man, very interesting. I have JBL 570 mains and I have to say these speakers which sound amazing are the hardest speakers to toe in. I'm not sure what is exactly right. But it sounds great the way I have them.
If it sounds great enjoy , enjoy them! :)
Great video Steven.
When I fist got my goldenear triton speakers I spent quite a while playing with toe in. I gradually toed them in more and more and it always improved the sound. Once I got to the point where they were aimed directly at the map everything changed, the speakers simply disappeared, I was blown away.
Thanks William. It is eye opening or (ear opening.. 😄 ) how much toe in changes the sound.
Should the mains be toe in directly at you or just at the side of you
Slightly off topic....but actually relevant to a Home Theater Setup: I'm building a home theater and I can find NO INFORMATION on how to properly prep the electrical boxes for a soundproof room. I've followed the advice to dress the original studs with insulation batts between the studs and to use sound deadening putty around the electrical boxes facing outwards (into adjacent rooms). However, I'm unsure how best to mount the electrical boxes needed for the media room. (I plan on dressing the media room studs with MLV, then applying hat channel clips and channel, then applying two layers of 5/8" sheetrock with Green Glue between the sheets.) The finished wall will be quite far (1/8" MLV + 1.2" hat channel clips/channel + 1.35" sheetrock/Green Glue ---- I.e. 2.6"), from the original stud line. So, mounting boxes on the original studs would leave a huge extension gap to fill. How do you soundproof experts solve this problem? Thanks
I'm just running 5.1 with a lot of 2.1 for music and I have 4" thick Owens-Corning 703 panels at my primary and secondary reflection points. In my system (a full set of D'Appolito-designed HT speakers) if I toe my mains in to 30 degrees (pointing at the sweet spot) my soundstage collapses. I have to toe them in less than 30 degrees to get back that nice open soundstage...
Hi. So, do you still stand firm on toe in? I thought i heard Anthony Grimani saying it isn't needed any more. Thank you
go play around with toe in in your room and report back...:).
Thanks Steven, well said. My Jamo LCRs (on-wall mount) "claim" that they shouldn't be toed in. But I'm getting ready to widen the array, and I'm definitely going to customize the mounting position to maximize the L&R for the whole room.
Am using the JamoD500 LCR,they r 3 way speakers so dispersion is good,so probably they say toe in not required.
Thanks for watching Evan!
Great vid! - On the same topic - I use Klipsch Cornwalls as my L+R - What about "extreme toe-in"? i.e. in a three seat theater room, pointing the left spkr at the right seat and pointing the right spkr at the left seat, paths crossing in front of the seats? Is this a bad thing? (walls are quite well treated, and room is anything but "live"). - Thanks!
Love the videos, watched the series you did over Covid lockdown as I built up my setup and have gone back to refresh on some pieces recently 😄
One question for toe-in, I’ve got a door to the left of my MLP so my side surrounds (5.2.4) have to be slightly forward of MLP as per Dr Toole’s suggestion, would you toe these in as well to the MLP or try and get some off-axis sound to give some spaciousness to them?
At the moment i’m slightly toed in and imaging sounds nice to me from them (they’re stand mount speakers btw at ear level)
I'm considering doing this for live sound for my band. I would be using a high tech mixer with hp and lp filters of course to properly match of course.
Great advice, man your video on the Dolby Atmos speaker placement is definitely a controversial one. Do you have the link for the Dolby studio PDF? Do they even have a studio PDF or is it just the home theater for pros and Cinema pdfs?
It's not controversial, just ignore those other guys. Their atmos systems were so poorly setup they've yet to actually hear what atmos should sound like. 😂. It's what the studios do. Just how it is. Audioholics has even had an atmos mixing engineer on and he basically backs it all up. That's how the stuidos are laid out and how they do they own personal theaters. The pdfs are linked in some of the videos.
@@hometheatergurus
What about thank you I found the studio PDF and happily pointed some things out to the "advanced audio engineering pro". Boy did that feel good! You the man
@@mikeday3306 ha.. Well some are not open minded but some are. In the end we have not had single person come from heights to this and not be blown away. The problem with atmos is that the home guide can lead people to very poorly setup systems yet they're in the home tolerance. They're left thinking atmos isn't as amazing as it really is.
I have a question. With the insane prices of pa subwoofers. Do you think if I bought a skar audio 18 inch with their premade box. I guess they're ported and tuned to 30 hz. And bought an inexpensive 2000 watt rack mount power amp. All in I think around$500 Do you think it would be competitive with the higher end pa subwoofers in the $1000 range?
YOu'd have to model the driver in design software to decide on a box and tuning. See some of the older videos as I have a WinISD tutorial that walk you through doing that.
Can you explain "wides" again? Are they part of a 7.1 system or are they completely separate speakers? I have one listening area (a recliner) with backs angled in and sides adjacent or slightly forward of my ear locations (all 4 slightly above ear level). Should I place the side speakers a lot farther forward?
They're what takes a 7.1 to a 9.1. Look back in the videos about 12 videos or more back. There's a video all about wides.
I am essential the soul critical user of my home theater. My couch does not allow sitting in the middle. Thus, I am sitting pretty much in front of the front right speaker. Should I just keep that speaker straight and toe in the left front?Should I also do the same with my rear surrounds? Enjoyed your explanation.
Try playing pink noise and toe both in to a point they sound the most similar.
Are you recommending a scl-6 front walls since they have 40 degree?
The SCL6 isn't angled at all so as a main it must be installed into an angled wall section to perform well. The SCL 7 is angled (15 degrees) and would be a much better choice for mains if you can' t alter the wall. Here's a good visual.
Keep in mind as you approach the edge of the waveguide you have lost 6 db at 10k according to Harmon and of course past the guide the CD is blocked completely.
If mains are spread 30 degrees the opposite side seats may very well be past the guide.
www.avsforum.com/threads/official-jbl-synthesis-pro-revel-home-theater-thread.2515137/page-263#lg=thread-2515137&slide=3
Great informative video! I think we may need a video of you creating a +10db house curve with Anthem ARC Genesis! Is it possible? Can we manipulate the EQ in ARC to create the house curve we desire with out using miniDSP? Does ARC align the subs like we can within miniDSP? Does Anthems AVM90 (4 independent sub outs) and ARC Genesis have the capability to make miniDSP redundant? If not an we still need miniDSP for maximum performance from our subs then perhaps a video from you with in depth integration of miniDSP and with ARC Genesis EQ would be a great video? I currently have the AVM90 and at this point only dual subs, I will be getting another 2 subs when I have the room that needs them, I have not used my miniDSP 2x4HD yet to see if there is a performance difference but would love to hear your feed back on this topic as Anthem seems to be getting more an more popular, thanks!
The AVM90’s ARC-g and miniDSP2x4HD are tools. ARC-g may be manipulated to design a house curve by incorporating Tilt, Room Gain, and Bass Boost. It does a great job at timing and phase alignment - applying filters to cut or boost as needed.
MiniDSP2x4HD allows 10 filters per input and output as well as very complex filters. One may use this tool to dial in each individual sub response as well as incorporate a tool like MSO to smooth and align response across multiple seats.
Using miniDSP2x4HD to EQ subs, then run ARC-g to unite your sub system with your speaker system can free ARC-g to focus on your speaker filters. This also allows one to use BEQ if they are prone to do so.
Otherwise, the AVM90 alone should be able to filter and align your subs with your speakers and create a house curve as previously mentioned. The room should sound exceptional with crisp detail and stunning bass impact throughout the bass spectrum including infrasonic sound.
If not, it is recommended to get a UMIK and REW to help identify and target problem areas in your room. HTG has many videos showing how to address a number of problems in easy to understand and follow format.
@@SealedOrPorted I have incorporated MiniDSP into my system about 3 weeks ago, there is no comparison, the MiniDSP has blown away my old calibration with ARC on its own. I am still unsure why but it sounds fantastic, my subs are alive and vibrant now, with our MiniDSP they were very dull and boring, I have spent hours trying to get ARC on its own to give fantastic bass and it wasn’t happening. I EQ and aligned my subs with MiniDSP flat then ran ARC and used the same corrections I always use and it absolutely hits now, unfortunately I think ARC have a long way to go at perfecting multiple sub optimisation and bass management, till then I think the MiniDSP will stay where it is!
Do you turn on Wide Synth?
No I use dsu.
Is there some sort of tool for messuring the amount of toe in ? To get it direct to the seating position or just eye ball the angle once you have worked out the distance for the front stage thanks
Hey Ben. This video will help you get them dialed in. ua-cam.com/video/g9egiVk_Qq4/v-deo.html
A late question for this vid; how much should the L&R be toed?
See ep 52.
@@hometheatergurus Will do, will do. Thanks Steve!
How is those new seats?
They are very nice but I do miss the headrests. For audio they are awesome.
@@hometheatergurus Do you recommend those seats for home theater?
How does it reflect for center image? Every other position other than MLP in center seat would sacrifice that?
No, it improves all seats. The sweet spot is widened not narrowed.
As always amazing work Steve! Would you rather have speakers at 30° with a large amount of toe in... Or have them at 26°angled a little more straight but still pointed to the MLP?
Thanks Ramsay. That depends. If you saw the video before this, there's some things to consider with mains spacing so it's not a simple answer but toe in must be a part of the setup if you're after great sound.