Installing Flexible Flue Liner
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- Опубліковано 11 лют 2013
- Fitting flexible flue liner, www.idostuff.co.uk/sections/Pr.... (note: in the U.K. liner should be installed under LA Building control or by a HEATAS registered installer (from comments received, the top of the liner should be sealed to plate or better still use a pot hanger, the method shown here is a bit out of date now)). Up to date Flue Lining advise in plain English "The Stovefitter's Manual" can be found at the link in the top comment.
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Sorry I can't answer them all the individual questions BUT, I can highly recommend the guides for DIY installers available at www.stovefitterswarehouse.co.uk. Go to the "Quick Guides & FAQ" section where there is loads of useful information including the "Stove fitter's Manual". If you are in the UK they also supply flue products and stoves that have been chosen/tested for quality and value, I'll be buying from them for my next install. I couldn't put together all the info they have compiled, it really is a valuable resource, well worth a look
*Nice video mate. I really love the look of that town you live in. The way you Brits save and preserve the pass is a great thing. I live in the USA and we tend to rise everything that is old to the ground, in favor of modern architecture.*
*I Love England! In my heart I am a Brit!( ; )*
Thanks for all your comments, much appreciated for adding worthy points to the debate. I’ve noted the method you describe as an alternative on the website. In this case the top of the flue was too wide to use this technique and most manufacturers, retailers, BFCMA etc . show and describe the clamp on top of the plate. As you can see in video the plate is also supported by steel bars that will bear the weight. I’m confident that the top of the liner is sufficiently supported.
I find taping a tennis ball to the rope worked well as it bounces off bumps etc rather than getting stuck.
Another valid comment, thanks. Yes I can see that an amount of rain water can enter the inside of the stack. This moisture can react and cause problems to masonry, mortar as well as leaching through causing damp patches and staining. However the amount of rain entering the stack will be cut significantly by the cowl compared to what will have been entering the stack in the past.
Just a quick tip from an old brickie. If you use too much slate around the pot the mortar flaunching will only be stuck to the slate and not to the brickwork at the top of the flue..
rollindann
finally a good video, just built my stack (bricky) but was unsure on the liner, this is great cheers
Brilliant video, I'm going to be doing an installation on a house I've bought in Nova Scotia and when I'm up on the roof? I can see Scotland, LoL!
Loved seeing Whitby Harbour in the background and the Cathedral up the hill (climbed those steps in 1958 after seeing 'Jailhouse Rock' in your local cinema. God am I ever homesick now, ha! ha! Thanks again, Jock Reid on Lake Erie.
Thanks for comment. That could be another reason why a pot hanger with the liner going right to the top is a better method to use. Although I don't think the cooling effect will be very dramatic and it wont cause a problem in practice. This particular chimney used to have a cooking range and un-lined flue - it still worked.
From experience, leaving the flue at the base of the chimney results in erratic smoke dispersal, and smoke blowing back in the house. Altered mine so flue is at top of chimney, the difference was well worth the effort.
A job well done by you.
Just a thought though, you could leave the scaffolding up all the time, year round and put a scaffolding staircase upto the roof and then you could all sit on you're roof in summer (good weather) and drink tea while viewing the Whitby scenery.
What an amazing experience
Cheers. The thought did occur but we've got dormers eight foot below with a very similar view. ua-cam.com/video/D6Yz1y7UfC8/v-deo.html
Cheers Stef.. it all adds to the debate. It's interesting to see the comments coming in (particulaly constructive ideas, like yours). It gives on opportunity to present reasoned argument that can open up thinking on a subject. With a result that anyone with a willingness to learn can end up with a bit more knowledge.
Ps I used a hanging pot.. A lot easier but when my heats installer done the installation on my other burner on a meter pot much like yours he made such a good job it blew off!
Hi Jock, all the best with your installation.
There's some more view shot on the cottage guided tour videos and still on the website. My parents visited Whitby in 55 and have photographs from then, it's not change much except everything was black and white then.
The cottage will be available as a holiday let so you'll be able to come and re-live the old times, there's a rock and roll weekend in June.
good on you for doing it yourself, so many are petrified of trying to do things themselves. Whitbys one of the places I miss, I used to go out fishing from there with a lad called mal from time to time.
Taking on challenges is what makes us men, 👍🔨🌲🇮🇪
Thanks for the video
It looks like Whitby with the Abbey on the hill alongside that old church with the box pews and 3 tier pulpit.
Well spotted, St. Mary's. a most remarkable jumble of a church. As featured in Bram Stokers "Dracular".
We'll have to explore further up sometime. Good news about the liner.
Thanks again. I can see how it's an advantage to flaunch the top of the liner but in a situation where you can't reach to trowel up the flaunching properly it's probably pointless So should the advice be, if your can't flaunch it properly then take it up to the top and use a pot hanger cowl? This will also have the advantage of easier replacement in the future.
Love the view of Whitby would've been nice to see a bit more of it...and thanks for the tips!
Well spotted. I should put a note on the video reffering to the explanation on the website. Short version: the top insert is too small, we tried it and the liner started being crushed / damaged before the insert was gripped, the clamp makes a mechanically secure grip without the insert. It might just be the particular manufacturerers insert and others may be a good push fit and so be of some useful effect particularly if the clamp is right at the top of the liner.
Up or Down? Pulling up saves having to take the coiled linner up to the stack and then control and manipulate whilst up high. The advantage of pulling it down is that it can be easier to twist the linner around if it gets a bit stuck. It might depend on how much much room you have downstairs and the size of the opening and are you working up top from a scaffold or roof crawler. The choice should be what's safest followed by what's easiest.
The cottage is close to the edge of a cliff so it looks high from that angle. It was all done of scaffolding. The helicpoter might be cheaper though if I ever have to get back up there.
Had look it looks great ..got my liner down today . I actually live closer to beach than u but its not as dramatic (I live up the coast at Seaton Carew!)
This is a really interesting video. Thank you for posting it.
I have of course subscribed to see what will happen next :-)
There's a good debate in comments about flaunching the top of the liner. We seem to have come to some conclusions... well worth a read through and thanks to FahrenheitStoves for their contributions.... So far nothing dangerous has been identified but there are good practical reasons why using a pot hanger is probably the best option in most situations.
Please feel free to comment and add to the debate.
Thanks for the advise, I'm make a note on the video pointing this out. I'll look in to why this sealing is required. Is it for safety (so gasses can't sink in to the stack)? or to stop water ingress?
very helpful thank you. We are changing our stove and an adapter is need to reduce the size for 150mm to 125mm. The new fire is 70mm lower than the existing. How do we do this? The flue pipe from the stove is not a rigid one!
Great job neighbour, Whitby is a awesome place ✌🏾
Love whitby, cracking place to visit
I think, we've got to bottom of it (maybe)... To avoid any potential problems with water ingress (including due flaunching to the flue not being perfect or in my case being non-existant) and to ease replacement in the future, USE A POT HANGER.
For the sake of saving a few feet of liner it's not worth the hassel and probably not worth it in the long run.
I wonder if the liner retailers/manufacturers will change or clarify their fitting instructions and advice?
Yep. Well spotted.
I agree wet insulation will can cause big problems, vermiculite and rock wool materials loose there turn in to heat conductors, and take ages to dry out, especially as the advise is that an insulated flue doesn’t need venting. (I confess, I’m considering the need for additional venting as this un-insulated). But what happens when water does eventual get through to insulated flues, under pot hanger cowls, seeping around cement flaunched liners, defective flashing etc.?
At last a polite meaningful comment, i applaud you sir...clap..clap
Cheers Paul, I've just put up up some pictures of the view (just for you;). If you visit the idostuff.co.uk website follow the link through to cottage restoration / renovation and then "views from the cottage", There is also a couple of guided tours videos that show the view.
You should always be fitting the liner from the top down, Gravity is a powerful thing and will make the installation easier to carry out, also as someone has said below insulation is a must to stop dangerous gases cooling to fast and coming back into the house it also helps the stove to operate to its optimum efficiency. I am from northern Ireland and i am a Registered HETAS Installer. It is still not law here that only HETAS Registered Installers may Install Solid Fuel Related Products it is an optional choice to do the course, It only applies to England, Scotland and Wales to be registered by law at present.
Thanks for commenting, the law difference is interesting, over here the law is that it has to be done and signed off to building regs and HETAS registered installers are the only one that can self certify.
Gravity is powerful agreed but the liner is very light so the advantage compared to friction is minimal. Being free to twist the liner when going in from the top is of greater advantage but as I've proved it's an option to go from the bottom.
I have to disagree with you on the insulation, even those who insist it is required state condensation of flue gasses and tar build up as the main reason. Achieving adequate draw is only a problem solved by extra insulation in very long and exposed stacks.
Yeah over here it is only Building control that has to be notified. I am completely for HETAS being a regulating body in Northern Ireland. To many people are being killed by carbon monoxide from poorly fitted flues. Especially as Multi-fuel and Log burning stoves are becoming the new trend. People need the correct advice not criticism for lack of Installation knowledge.
Jonathan Lee
Registration systems all sound good but they are really only as good as the people who run them. Electrical building trades that have part-p regulations simply means nothing.
An educated public and a good follow up regulatory system would be better than forcing people especially the trades down the route of registration.
With electrical it is still the BS 7671 regulations that are master and registration bodies simply do not answer the problem that exist in the field of poor installation of services both mechanical and electrical.
You don't need to be a HETAS certified Installer in Scotland.
You still operating? I’m in Moville and need a flu liner fitted ASAP.
Mr Kieran, I've had to delete most of res1492 comments due to the passionate language but the sentiment behind them is understandable.
Other comments have been made, that identify the pot hanging method of flue termination is in most circumstances preferable to using the plate and clamp. This is because of the difficulty making a good permanent water tight sloping seal to direct any rain that gets past the cowl to inside the liner rather than in to the masonry of the stack. cont..
whitby ! my favourite town
There is a quick mention at about 2:50 on the commentary
Good Job.
Well that was right professional, nice.
"There's summat jarring the bugger!"
The finished job will be inspected and signed off by a HETAS registered installer. He will be checking progress as I go along, advising as and when required. He is also GasSafe and doing the same for the boiler instal. And I've a 17th edition sparky doing the same for the lecy. So it'll all be up to spec and certed. I looked in to the BC inspection, at the money they want I'd rather it go direct to a Local Tradesmen. (PS it's my own house)
You are right. the lenght of the chimney is that is not lined is short, so it will have less influence. I just gave some basics about a chimney works. but thanks. THe guy already reacted below. So don't worry, i'll geus he slept quit well ;-)
Thanks for your support res1492. Most welcome, I'm big enough and ugly enough not to let the negative comment get to me. Often my questioning of their reasoning either leads to more useful debate, or they shut up as there is no defence for the position they have taken.
PS. due to the international audience and youngsters that many be reading I need to keep the expletives to a minimum. So as I cant edit them I'll have to delete some of the more passionate comments, but thanks anyway.
OK can you point out which bit of the installation does not comply with current building regs? Yet again please be specific. As for your other point, it seems (from your coments) that being qualified then prohibits you from giving information? And yes fires and boilers, with a gassafe engineer checking and commissioning.
Great video!! Cheers! Im planning on installing a flu liner and stove in the next month...really looking forward to it. How comw you took the liner up the chimney instead of taking the liner on the roof and pushing it down?
Thank you Cal, that is driving me mad too.
You could have painted the Pots with red oxide paint too cover those Unsightly Straps would finish the job off nicely....
I have my doubts about the quality of the installation of those chimney pots. They are huge, way up high, exposed to coastal wind, held by bits of rubble and a coat of mortar, no throating to protect the masonry from moisture. Rough job lads. I'm sorry to be blunt but I would've have that at all.
Where was this filmed? Beautiful scenery of the harbour
Whitby, yes it's beautiful
Im afraid a HETAS installation company cannot sign off an installation they haven't done themselves, if they want to break the regs then its on their head & bad practice. Its not a good idea to use tall chimney pots as the flue gasses will cool rapidly once out of the chimney itself & could cause tar to form on the liner/chimney pot inside. As youve been informed a pot hanging cowl is the way to go. Nice flaunching.
Thanks SWS, The HETAS sign off, is something I can't comment on, it seems some are happy to do it (as long they can see it's all done right) and some are dead set against it. The tar build up is something I'm going to monitor over time, I'm thinking of getting a inspection camera on some rods. It'll be interesting to see in real life what actually happens.
5:45 Th most beautiful view 🙂
If they had cemented the clamp it would have blown the cement as the clamp bolts are galv. The liner should go to the top. The smoke is cooling down as it goes up the chimney. Then the smoke gets to the cold pot and slows down as the pot is bigger causing it to tar up, and it is hard to sweep. If there is a chimney fire the pot can come down and that could be a killer.
+Ben Hughes If tha as a fire Tha sends Wife up wi a bucket a watter to chuck daan .....Job done
+Jonathan Atkinson I suppose you are joking. 6 foot flames and a pot glowing cherry red which will explode if you pour water on it.
+Ben Hughes +Jonathan Atkinson, I think Jonathan does jest. With ref to your earlier comment, after much discussion, research and thought I would now, on balance use a pot hanger, but not for safety reasons. The link in the description explains in more detail. I now have an inspection camera, at some point I'll use it to monitor what kind of residues do build up both in the liner and pot, this should be helpful to either prove or disprove any arguments that have been made.
+iDoStuff I was just codding in told days we used to burn Tin cans and bang some salt on t fire to put any Chimney fire out....... Quite a common occurrence in the fifties and earlier times less common in cities as we burnt mostly coal I used to watch the soot deposits burn up the chimney more interesting than the Telly Tin was the main element in the fuel Catalyst used for the Hurricanes in WW2 sent to Russia as the Russians used fuel injection the Octane of the petrol was not as critical were as the Rolls Royce used carburetors and high octane petrol the tin introduced in a molecular form ( Tablets dropped into the fuel storage tanks) allowed the fuel to burn more efficiently and keep the carbon deposits low and the engine oil less contaminated.....The RAF engineer involved later formed a company called Carbon Flow .... So the Tin from the tin cans helps keep the deposits in the stack less likely to stick around. I can't see any evidence of Chicken wire reinforcing doing any great deed in the flaunching if it's done correctly in the first place it lasts for decades and the brick work has probably been eaten away by Sulphur erosion Yellow Bricks inside the stack! If you think that Benching ( in brick manholes goes through a lot more stick than Chimney flaunching) never saw any need for it You know out in the middle of nowhere saying to your mate did you bring the chicken wire? after beding in a new pot taking of the Old pot and flaunching that had been there a hundred plus years Still if you have some knocking around.....PS Send up t Mother in Law to see t Stack tha nos All the best
The single deviation (not sealing the linner to the top plate) is the only point any one has been able to raise and the only problem with this is a small amount of moisture could leach through and discolour internal decoration. If your main concern is safety, surely it's your moral duty to point out what is dangerous with this installation so others dont make a similar "mistake".
Is there a way of installing a new gathering above the existing gathering. I was told there is sand and cement in the cavity and if the gathering is removed, the clay flue and insulation will collapse. Any help would be appreciated.
It sound more like an open fire that you are talking about. So I'm not certain of what you are trying to do. If the existing clay flue is in good condition it can be reused but check/test it first. Clay liners shouldn't slide down the chimney but if you are trying to raise the height of an opening there are structural issues to be aware of and it will be a messy job. www.idostuff.co.uk/sections/DIY/Chimney%20Arch/Chimney_Arch_Rebuild.html might give you some ideas.
sorry should read - vermiculite and rockwool loose their insulating properties, turn in to heat conductors and take ages to dry out.
Try Perlite.
just a quick one i did not see the top inserts in the top of the liner on the video.
HETAS registered installers may install a solid fuel fire and reline the flue.
Gas Safe registered installers can install a gas fire and reline its flue.
Where in the UK it the video it's a lovely place
didnt look like the inserts went in the flue liner?
You didn't show what you do with the bottom of the flue? Do you have to make a steelhead in order to secure the base of the flue for appliance fitting?
Fitting the stove is on a separate video.
Is that liner sized right for that fireplace? Fireplace opening has quite a bit of area.
It is for a stove so 6" 150mm is the right size, for on open fire it would have to be much bigger.
OK, can you tell us all what is wrong with this installation? If the HETAS installer I've been talking to finds a reason why I can't be the labour on the job so he can sign it off, then I'll have to go down the BC route. Why would you report him to trading standards and not HETAS?...
i have fitted hundreds of liners its much easier fitting the from the top.
yes it is!
Me thinks there is smthng called gravity.
Instead of pulling up the bugger it better to slide it down with gravity
Love
Wow, I missed the helicopter that dropped you guys onto the roof. You are way up there!!
Lovely Whitby
Well Spotted.
I love whitby :)
Perhaps the liner could go to the top of the terra-cotta pot, not to put vermiculite round the steel flue isn't good.
The stove gas rises better, the more insulated and warmer the flue is at the top. Cold at the top of the stack tars it up. The draw is reduced as well. The liner moves around when being swept, if there's no insulation packed round the liner.
The steel flue would go round the "blind" in the brickwork better, if put down from the roof, the flue on the video was huge and didn't have terra-cotta liners, that's probably why you got away with pulling it up the way, there are screw on nose cones, better than a tape job, that can come off. That ledge of the steel plate left inside the terra-cotta pot is a rain trap, the whole stack will be damp, and the top of the liner will rust quickly, and tar up. That's the first time in fifty years I've seen a liner pulled up the way.
NO ONE has been able to identify any potentially hazardous fault with this installation.
As I have said the completed installation will be to the building regs and certified via a HETAS installer or direct with BC.
Please provide some comment that supports your assertion that you know what you are talking and I don’t. So far your claims are weak and unsubstantive. If you are HETAS trained, I would have thought you would be able to identify what is “incorrect in more ways than one”.
Why not drop the liner from the top and have gravity help it down a bit? Plus twisting and turning it from the top is much easier! Why didn’t you terminate the liner at the top of the pot then cap it? This way creosote, soot and condensation are going to build up inside the pot around the liner and on the top of the top plate! The water could undermine the pots and eventually the pots could come loose and fall.
With the weight of the liner gravity doesn't make much difference so its personal preference really. The issue of pot termination is covered in more detail on the website. on balance it would be better terminating at the top of the pot, although this method is by no means unsafe.
and what happens when the pot expands and cracks the mortar?
The pot will have expanded and cracked the mortar and if necessary will need remedial work just like any other stack and pot.
Good
How did you upright the pots?
The video show the pots going back on at around 6 minutes.
Looks like the inserts didn't go in after all. I like Whitby had some fish n chips there once.
That looks like Whitby, right?
Yep, well spotted
Why no vermiculite around liner?
Or Perlite.
Dese moze kupitiove cjevi za oak
To me To you loverly view of Whitby
I can't believe how SOME people (not all) harp on about being a "certified Hetas engineer'. If you really car about safety & see any serious mistakes with this installation just say what they are instead of criticising. 'we cant certify other peoples work because its against the regs' hahaha. And remember folks don't change a flat on your car if your not a qualified mechanic...! (Or should I say a wheel Engineer).
I know what you mean. It is frustrating when some wont (or can't) back up negative comments with reasons. It is great and I encourage knowledgeable folks to criticise as it gives the opportunity for us to expand our knowledge base. The input from some of these comments have been very helpful.
It does seem that HETAS models its self on the "Magic Circle" threatening to excommunicate members if they expose the mystical secrets of the sacred fire.
It has gotten completely ridiculous.
Part P of the build regs have been a mess to be honest.
I have to agree. Loads of people fit these themselves. By withholding or by trying to prevent people from understanding how to do it the right way, people will get it wrong. Share the knowledge - that's what the internet is all about. For those HETAS people, you will always get business from those who don't have the confidence or inclination to do it themselves (so stop moaning).
Mark Wright Not that HETAS actually tell you how to install a stove, just what not to do. All the information is there for people to look up in ADJ if they are so inclined
Its Easier to line it from the top why people do it from inside the house i dont know.
Not always. Julian www.stovefitterswarehouse.co.uk
A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, some wise man once said. I can't believe these guys actually filmed this as a demonstration of how to fit a liner.
Pulling up the liner is never a good idea as it puts considerable strain of the crimping. Feed the liner down the chimney!
Re fitting the two massive pots.... by all means. Cut them down so you can get to flaunh the top of the liner inside the pot... any rain going in the pot, if not flaunched, will run down the outside of the liner . Plus these long pots are the coldest part of the flue, creating another issue and increased condensation at the top of the chimney.
As all of the work was done to the top of the chimney, why didn't the pots get put inside the top course and not just bedded on.
Great scaffold to work from( good access can usually be an issue), but a dissapointing outcome here for any installer who knows what should happen during this installation.
If you are thinking about installing a liner yourself, please think againt! It is a very important part of your safety as homeowners and should not be put in as described here!!!
Thanks for the comments Adie.
You might want to follow the link in description and read some of the other comments that cover some of your points.
The difference between pulling up or pulling down is only gravity (apart from maybe having more room at the top for twisting the the liner if you need to). So comparatively virtually no extra strain on the liner.
Before recommending shortening a pot you should consider why the long pots where used in the first place. But yes I agree the pots will be coldest part of flue and I do point out that a liner to pot hanger is probably a better technique to use in the long run. It's a shame that the official publications don't point out the all the pros and cons, at least the video and related discussion is enlightening to a greater degree.
When looking at the arguments in detail there isn't anything dangerous shown here but some minor points would be solved by using a pot hanger.
Some literature recommends bedding pots in two or three courses of brick, this advice goes back to the days of lime putty mortar, good deep flaunching with portland cement is a well proven method.
To conclude, the little bit of knowledge given by many flue suppliers is not perfect. I hope what we doing here expands on the information available.
Pulling up is fine. I prefer feeding down but have done both many times. Julian Patrick www.stovefitterswarehouse.co.uk
it is never a good idea to stop the liner before the end of the chimney. WHAT HAPPENS, the big red tube on top is wider so smoke will slow down while getting up. This happens in the worst plaece possible, the cold place of the chimney. The slowing down and the cooling of the smoke wil make the damp and the smoke heavy. This way will reduce the efficenty of the chimney drasticly. It might in bad waether conditions give a danwdraft. ALWAYS keep the temprature of the smoke hot to the very top!
Whitby? :)
Certainly is. Whilst I'm typing this, I'm watching a front rolling in from the north sea, It might be time to light the fire and get cosy. PS the cottage is now available to let - www.idostuff.org/whitby-cottage/
Thanks for replying. I have a good friend who was born and raised there. He lives in Scarborough now. I am in France and will soon install flex tubing in two chimneys in our house. Thanks for the video. It was quite helpful.
Looks like Whitby
Koga mogu kontatirat interesjume
Chuffin' 'ell fire.
I take it you are Hetas registered & qualified to install flue liners & stoves to peoples houses?? Or did you pay your local authority @£300 to have building control assess it?Of course it would be illegal otherwise & people's lives may be put at risk aswel as their house insurance void in event of a fire....
Whitby
yep
lol..twat..moi?... someone needs a hug
Whitby !!!!!!!!
Tha dunt sink t Ship fa apath a Tar
Grab odd yer silly bugger and lets get cracking
🤣
you have got to be fucking joking right, yes your points are valid but not for that amount of chimney, christ i feel sorry for this guy, he would not get a minutes sleep and be up all night worrying if he listened to you lot
?
This is how not to do it
And this is how chimney fires are caused! .... Terrible and dangerous installation!
Ariarnos Wilsabona Can you back up your comment with any detail? What is "terrible"? and What is "Dangerous". How can this installation cause a chimney fire? . I'm up for any valid criticism, so if you know what you are talking about please expand. You might want to read the other comments and the website first.
Good