Hey everyone! There are a few movie references I've snuck in here, see if you can find them. If you're interested in listening to me on a podcast I was just on EFAP's 100th anniversary which you can watch here: ua-cam.com/video/GBwthFqAR6o/v-deo.html& 0:00 Introduction 3:30 Initial Thoughts 9:03 Gameplay 12:28 Premise 17:18 Conner 20:00 Kara 23:11 Markus 25:41 Final Thoughts
Would love to see a video with the serious topic discussed on EFAP. I think it could help a lot of people. Family/Friends/Happiness is whats important in life, not chasing the last cent. The parts talking about passion were also wonderful. Tonald seems to be such a deep/kind person..
SamWallace Art I know David cage loves to go on to make new IP’s and isn’t a fan of sequels but honestly I think he would benefit greatly from creating another Detroit game that focuses all on Connor and Hank investigating crimes. Connor was easily the most interesting and enjoyable character to play and everybody that I heard of wanted more of him.
Detroit Become Human is supposed to be less of a "game" and more of an "interactive *Movie* " being played out that you're along for the ride. And you know what, I'm ok with that. It's a darn fun movie. So by that standard I'm way ok with there being less real time gameplay and just being interactive cutscenes.
The concept of an interactive movie is interesting, ive seen some a few in netflix but they’re okay. It would be nice seeing more, depending on the genre and concept.
Wouldn't it still make it a game though? I feel like going out of our ways to distinguish these things from each other and kind of bring down these experiences to a "not games" standard prevents us from reaching potentials games can have. I don't know, that's how I think of it at least.
@@connorp3764 It still is a game yes. the general people feel that games *must* have open world and constant gameplay. but that is not the case. Heck way long ago games used to be point and click adventures and they were still considered games. Why can't Detroit Become human be one then.
@@pyguy7 yeah, that's sort of my thinking. I feel like the medium is going through some really shitty growing pains as the "nerdy gamer" culture when it was first a pretty niche platform and modern mainstream gaming are absolutely refusing to coexist. I really don't know why and when it will end, but I think we're somewhat getting there with more mainstream games against this like Detroit and debatably death stranding, but I honestly don't know.
With that logic though, doesn't that make visual novels interactive movies? I get your point but you have to remember just because you don't get the kick ass and stuff doesn't make it less of a game.
Fantastic video. You're definitely correct, Detroit Become Human is much more of an experience than a game, but without it being a game, it wouldn't work, and I loved every single second of said experience. I played through it three times and wound up with three wildly different endings, so it's safe to say that this video is easily the fairest review of the game on UA-cam. Thanks again for coming on EFAP 100 and may The Don bless you.
Yeah. I agree with both. Somewhat. I just cannot bring myself to see these types of... media as games. Or to categorize it at all. It doesnt feel as a game really, but neither as a movie or a show. It's just the uncanny valley of the modern entertainment industry looking for its place in it.
@@RED_Theory038 Yeah, yeah for sure. That's what I implied; it needs imo a new category indeed. That's what probably hurts the most with some people, 'gamers' I shal call them. I saw IH streams and some others, where the person playing starts trashing it a bit or not taking it as seriously because of, well, it not really being a game in the traditional sense of the word. It would help those games a lot to stop calling themselves games. People might like 'Lite game', interactive show/series, something like that. And then there are games sitting on the fence, really, like TLOU2, which rings some bells for me (apart from the story, pacing and all the other problems).
@@RED_Theory038 But at that point, frankly if you think about it, you get into the problem that games that are called RPG have not a sinlge drop of the vial of role-playing etc. And that can be an infinately deep rabbit hole. So I dunno is what am sayin...
@@radimnechut519 What bothers me, as far as games calling themselves RPGs, is when they take all the wrong lessons of what makes a compelling RPG. Games like Assassins Creed: Odyssey come to mind, where before in the series it would most definitely be an stealth action game, then the devs think adding in arbitrary stat numbers, a loot system filled with junk, dissatisfying filler side quests to pad out the game, damage sponge enemies, etc. makes it an RPG.
Forgot to mention “Until Dawn”. Everything you do has an effect throughout the game and the characters can die at any moment based on the player’s decisions
@@egbelanh what are you talking about? If you like choice, until dawn give you much more choice and consequence than the Detroit. Even the "sequel" Man of medan was superior in that regard.
@@egbelanh I disagree with you. Until Dawn have some many different outcomes that you would surprised that are in the game. Until Dawn is second to Detroit to be honest.
I LOVE until dawn so much. I just hope their studio gets their shit together and make another game like it. Little hope and mandan weren’t good in the least. Hopefully the one they’re working on rn will be good. Though I thought the multiplayer in littl hope was a good idea.
I feel like one issue with this video is the complete non-mention of the visual novel genre which has been perpetuating true choice for over 2 decades now
Zipper Man Yeah, a lot of people think ill of them, but it's funny watching how even some basic VNs have more of a consecuence for your actions than Telltale games xD
VNs, great as they are, have always been a niche. Given that they are produced almost exclusively in Japan, they are readily perceived in the West as "weeb shit" and easily dismissed. I don't believe Lord Tonald (long may he reign) has an interest in Anime or Manga, so I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't really know that the genre exists. If he sees this comment, I'd strongly recommend Stein's;Gate as an entry to the genre - all the deep philosophical and science-fiction themes of games like Detroit: Become Human, and more.
@@vanavoid8869 How does that even happen? Do you have to have low relationship with her? Cuz Kara and Alice both survive always when I do the River ending
I hope so desperately that we get another game with the investigation mechanics from Connor's sections. Especially being able to plan out the fight before executing it. It's super cool and I almost feel like it's wasted in a game that has no other good gameplay mechanics.
@Curly Que I don't know enough about game design to disagree, so my only argument is that maybe video games shouldn't be so story driven. They are called GAMES, so the GAMEplay should take precedent, I think. Besides the fact that the story is not that interesting, anyway. (in my humble opinion.)
@@GippyHappy I think it's fair if you prefer games where the gameplay takes precedent. But games can exist on a spectrum from very story-driven to pure gameplay-focused. There also exists a middle ground of games where both gameplay and story/decision making are important (i.e. rpg shooter games like Mass Effect, or something like The Last of US). Some of these more story-focused games, like Quantic Dream's material, like Curly Que mentioned, diverge from traditional gameplay and focus on being interactive stories, with the main gameplay element being the ability to make decisions in the story. A space for these interactive movie-type games should still exist, as they offer a different experience than movies on their own. Being able to control a widely branching storyline with many possibilities is a riveting experience for many players. Perhaps story-driven games just aren't to your taste (and again, that's perfectly fair if you don't like it), but there are many people out there that enjoy these types of games. However I do agree with you that it would be cool to have a game with the investigation mechanics from Connor's sections, and the mechanism of preplanning fights, I also enjoyed that aspect. Also agree with you that the story in Detroit Become Human isn't the best, and is a bit generic. Although I think what the story excels at is its character writing (i.e. the Connor and Hank dynamics) more so than its plot.
@@MondayMorningMist I think a story is cool, but at some point the story takes over and it become less "video game" and more "interactive story" or "movie where you press buttons sometimes". I honestly feel like they should be in a separate category. Like I can watch a let's play or no commentary version of Detroit or other games like it and not feel like I missed anything, but I get more personal satisfaction out of playing games myself when the actual gameplay is fun. You know? Different strokes and all that, just my personal opinion. I just think the word "game" is getting stretched in this instance. I said game too many times
The most messed up Kara fail state is in "Stormy Night". If you don't become a deviant and obey Todd, he'll go up and kill his daughter and then you, blaming you for her death.
I actually feel that the outcome chart they show you at the end of each chapter-is a genius way to encourage replaying the game. Like yeah the big paths you could easily deduce to the A or B choice you were given in that chapter. But it’s those tiny branches that show up all over major story beats that just make you wonder “oh what was that” or “wait what did I miss” or “OMG I did miss a dialogue option”. It strikes that curiosity in your brain that makes you wonder what you missed. I genuinely find it to be a genius strategy to encourage people to do multiple playthroughs
You praise the fighting animation and I imagine it's because of it's cool matrix style cinematic feel, but have you considered that if the developers made this this game to be more of a traditional game with the usual fighting game mechanics interactivity it would lose that aspect of the fights in favour of fighting that would look more like the arkham games or something else?
Yeah, it would. I think that's his point, despite how well made the fight choreography is, it's not supposed to happen if you want to let the player well, play. I can't really see it that way since I'm a DBH fangirl but I kind of get his point.
Criminally under-rated game. Played it twice also (second time purposely going opposite to my initial game) and it was fantastic 👌. I cant wait to see what Cage does with PS5
Honestly this game was soo good I want a sequel, I feel they need to keep the characters as charismatic and engaging like Connot and Hank, one of the things I love of Breaking Bad and BCS its that almost all the characters are amazing
@@justanotherblackwhitemicke7817 I would love a sequel. it’s never really said if they could gain freedom long term or if it’s temporary. I would like to see Connor and Hanks relationship grow as well as Kara and her little family. But since there’s multiple endings i don’t think it’ll happen
@@justanotherblackwhitemicke7817 i would love one, but it doesn’t really seem possible. Theres too many different choices and endings a player could have had. And if they blew up Detroit there really cant he a sequel. It would have to be an update that adds onto the already existing choices the player made
@@justanotherblackwhitemicke7817 It should never have one. It's a great game, but part of the appeal to the endings is that there is no *real* ending. You choose what happens, and those characters are people you control. What happens is up to you, and to make a sequel would rob that from the player
The point you made about missing entire portions of the game is so true. I didnt even know the recycling center level was a part of the game until my third playthrough. I was so surprised to see that literally an entire section can get cut out if your choices dictate it
My problem with dbh was probably how forced the north love was, thought they could atleast have simon as an option, they have most of the same interactions, I just really disliked north lmao
@Abigail Pritchard yeahh I heard that too, people think its cause homophobia And bruh i literally tried so hard to not have to romance north and it still happened cause i didnt want her to hate me, Simon would have been a wayy better option or even just the choice not to be with her without hate, or if you go the violent route be with north and if you go the peaceful route go with Simon idk
18:29 I completely agree. You could really feel the tension between his orders and the (subjectively) more empathetic or reasonable choices that contradict his orders. And the tension was really felt at moments that you couldn’t quite tell what’s right or wrong.
I absolutely LOVED playing as Connor. He is definitely my favourite character, and the relationship dynamic between Hank and Connor is so heartwarming. They start by being cold and distant to one another to friends and I love that sort of relationship progression in all kinds of media. I also really love how choices actually have consequences. I adore this game. If anyone is questioning whether they should play it, YES, YOU DEFINITELY SHOULD!!
I absolutely love Connor. Not just his character but how I relate to him. Being controlled by cyberlife to do their dirty work, struggling with his relationship with hank, his fear of failing at the beginning. These kinda play out in my own life as well and I just love playing as Connor
@@thatwoofle4432 When you think about it, Connor was only made to cover Cyberlife's ass. I'm so glad we were given the storyline option of him deviating. I've never seen a relationship like Hank and Connor's in a video game before and it's so refreshing and intriguing to see.
Connor killed Hank in my first play through. Then he killed Marcus and his girlfriend ending the robot uprising. Then he got replaced by a upgraded Connor. What a shitshow.
"There's nothing less interactive than watching a cool fight scene play out than kick the guys' ass yourself" And yet there's nothing more *Awesome* looking, than watching a cool fight scene play out than kick the guys' ass yourself. It's cinematic vs interactiveness/gameplay. Honestly I'm GLAD we watch Connor kick ass in a CUTSCENE than watch someone personally perform moves to beat them up manually and here's why: Cinematography. A well toned cutscene will always be more enjoyable and pleasing to watch as a viewing experience because the camera is purposefully designed for each shot for the most dynamic and exciting viewpoints. basically it's well crafted. Give control fully to the player and the camera will never be as intimate or well tuned. They tend to be more haphazard in order to follow the player (this is not always the case but usually it is). It can be almost as cool to watch, but never actually matches the same cinematic experience as watching a finely tuned cutscene with shots placed with specific purpose. I'm GLAD the Conner fight scenes are "Scenes" and not gameplay. It looks way cooler. It just wouldnt be as cool if they weren't. You have to ask yourself if you really honestly think giving control to the player would net as cool a cinematic as those fight scenes.
the qte fight sequences are probably my favourite part of the game, and real gameplay would never match the level of catharsis you get, especially in markus' riot fight scenes. i didnt feel like it was less interactive either, i felt like the result of the fight depended on my performance in the qte, which is ultimately what matters in a story game about different choices and outcomes
Connor was the best storyline, in my opinion (I believe it is the popular one). Probably because he feels like the most interesting and the one that goes through the most character growth (partially depending on the route you take). It might also be a bonus that he has the storyline that is farthest away from the questionable allegory for civil rights.
i enjoyed the video, but that bit on the "females" in dbh was kinda ehh to me. i think there is a point to be made on how trope-y the female characters are in this game. the main female character's personality revolves around her being motherly, while markus and connor get the grand world-altering storyline. sure, she can fight back against her abuser, but the criticism is more the fact that female characters are always subject to these stories. alice is a child and thus has little agency. north is The Love Interest and is once again another female character who has experienced sexual abuse. the tracys are another two characters who have experienced sexual abuse. we get not one but two of the Wise Magical Black Woman trope (and one's a villian!). besides that there's.... the little girl in the prologue?? That One Female Cop??? chloe???
The timestamps. The introspection. The reference to haze of bong smoke. "EFAP's 100th Anniversary" link in the pinned comment. This is perfection, Tonald. Your wisdom is deep, and your content is great.
Honestly one of my complaints with the story is that there should be more humans on the side of the androids. Human are very emotional beings and we connect very easily to things that aren’t human. I mean that’s how dogs where made. I have a hard time believing that so little people have sympathy for androids when In real life we bond with roombas. Imagine if during that one android riot where androids filled the streets, if even one human joined the riot, the police wouldn’t be able to just shoot all buck wild without the threat of killing a human being. The few (sympathic) main human characters we got where really amazing and I wish we had more of that.
I mean fair but like have you seen the US? There is still over 500 anti lgbtq bills and we have been fighting for rights for so long. Not strange that this would happen. Thankfully I live in a more open place so I don't have to worry to much but this story plays out in the US.
yes, but androids are also replacing humans. "taking" their jobs. and becuase of that unemployment, the gap between the rich and poor is much bigger. most people arent rich, so i can see why the majority doesnt like androids
I know I’m totally biased but I loved the gameplay lol I’m not great at video games and I felt like I actually had a fair shot, whereas if there were other elements added idk if I would’ve felt comfortable enough to play it. It’s unfortunate it’s not like a setting or something added to a harder level but I do love that the gameplay is just pressing buttons!! Aha
22:50 segregating androids part made sense to me. They are all standing and you wouldn't want for a toster to take a sitting space in public transport. They are basically loaded into luggage hatch.
I feel like the light gameplay actually suits the game more. Each mechanic is tied to making a decision, but how would, say, having a moveset in combat or like, holding a trigger to control which foot you're moving add to the choices? The gameplay was built around the choices they wanted you to make, it's simple because it's streamlined, not because they were being unimaginative. If you wanted more choices, that's fine, and if you wanted a game focused on a different style of story telling that's fine too, but that's subjective and tied to what you desire from an experience. I'd liken it to a painting. It doesn't matter how good a painting depicts something or how high quality it is if it doesn't contain your favorite color.
While I like this video, I believe that a lot of things regarding Detroit's story are done better with games like Nier: Automata, and in terms of general writing, visual novels have done a lot more of what Cage has tried, but did it better.
Agreed, but that's not to say that it's not refreshing to see Western game designers taking a crack at the same core concepts. I don't really like Cage's works (played a bit of Beyond and Heavy Rain) by default, but there's so much potential in gaming as an interactive storytelling medium worth exploring.
Nier Automata is just a weird trippy ass game. Detroit become human is grounded much more in reality and even though a lot of writing is heavy-handed it’s the most easily understood. Nier has that anime style eccentricity to it that alienates a large part of gamers who don’t necessarily find appeal in the eccentric anime aesthetic. Both games have their strengths, but Detroit is more generally accessible to mainstream audiences.
@@rainyatsu4588 I agree that Automata can be off-putting for people who don't like or care about anime, and it does have its moments especially early on, but it's not just weird nonsense throughout the entire game. Saying that it has no deeper meaning or emotional resonance with the audience is just not true. Automata is a great game with a beautiful story, I just think it's a harder initial sell than Detroit (haven't played or watched Detroit so I can't compare the two, but I'm saying not to brush Automata off as nothing but a weird anime game for weebs)
Great analysis. It's an interesting point about injecting more 'gamey' types of gameplay in certain segments. I know this style of game isn't for everyone, but I think asking for a cover shooter during a firefight is wanting the game to be something its not. Anyway, I've played through Detroit a few times and I'm still seeing clips in this video I had no idea existed. Detroit Become Human is quite simply the best choice-based game ever made.
mostly, i was all the way there with you, but that little diatribe about "victimization" and ""females"" really dragged down the video for me. i'd recommend you not take such a strong stance on a topic you don't seem to have the best grasp on.
Yeah I had to grimace through that part. He doesn’t seem to understand that women being put in that position in the first place is part of the problem, regardless of whether the characters have the power to kill their oppressors. Kara was the original android who broke her programming. She should have had more impact and influence on the overarching narrative and had Markus’ role as Ra9. So why was Kara’s narrative limited to being a maid in a domestic abuse setting and being a mother? Why was every other female character of note a sex worker (the Traceys and North), a child, a villain, or a magical black woman (a stereotype that has a long history with racism)? Don’t get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed this game. But that doesn’t mean I won’t acknowledge its flaws and point it out, hoping someone out there is listening, hoping that other properties like this improve on these criticisms in the future.
Yeah, I wanted to point this out as well! It is a prominent problem in David Cage's stories - women are put into these situations waaaaay more than men, to the point where you start to question if that's the only struggle Cage knows to put female characters through
@@zjm6931 Exactly. She was so removed from the overarching narrative, literally nothing she does affects it. Meanwhile, Markus and Connor's story affects her massively. Their story pretty much dictates whether Kara and Alice have a truly good ending. In the video, he says "oh why are people complaining, look she can kill her abuser", but in reality, Kara is the most powerless character in the game. She can only depend on the actions of others (specifically men) to determine her fate. And this is yet another trope that women in fiction are constantly being put in, which normalizes this narrative and makes it so people don't even question it because they're so used to it.
Todd, the drugged out alcoholic, reminds me of the veteran dilemma. Many on drugs or left penniless because they were used til no longer needed then forgotten.
Detroit Become Human is a very very special game, there’s genuinely nothing like it in my opinion. the characters are so well made, voice acted, casted, just everything about the game is made so well. It’s just so refreshing to have a game that does something different & new in a very deep & beautiful storyline. Connor & Hank is top tier.
No it doesn't. The game makes it painfully clear after the first few sections what choices are "right" or "wrong". The lessos of this game are that of "dont be racist" and "never play "chose your own adventure" games". You either get a good ending, or you get a bad ending. Nothing seems like a hard choice when if you chose what the game obviously shows as the "moraly right" choice and always get the "good" ending out of the situation. The scene in which markus has to either shoot his ally or leave him to potentially get information extracted from him should have ended poorly if you chose the "morally right" choice. This game has a 6 year olds understanding of what a civil rights movement is and barely lets you get to see why people think poorly of androids and their cause. Nothing about this game is a lesson or changes you unless you're a 1st grader who hasn't figured out what slavery is yet.
I think Kara’s story pool is a very cliche story of “women in danger in a harsh world” which can take on an exploitative victim-porn vibe if the writers aren’t careful. Albeit Kara does fight back, but the issue is more that Kara is never presented with decisions or story beats outside the “female victim” / “distressed mother” trope. What the media complaints miss is that the two male characters are similarly shackled to their clichés. Markus is only presented with “renegade revolutionary” type issues, and Connor is only presented Blade Runner type issues. Connor has the edge over all the characters in that he’s in the happy middle-ground between boring messiah and useless victim; right in the sweet spot of agency vs limitation that forces him into more ambiguous decisions. With Kara it’s an obvious Hide or Run option every time; with Markus it’s an obvious Peace or War option every time; but with Con-Con you have Amanda-loyalty, android rights, Hank’s relationship, adherence to protocol, as well as safety for the other characters and the conflict of interest there, to weigh in your head, so at every turn, you actually have four decisions rather than just two. The other reason Kara catches flak is that she has a passive story; she’s only ever reacting to what’s around her or following instructions, so her story superficially comes across as disempowering. Honestly, Markus’ story is just as passive; he just looks cooler and gets more clout while doing it. I think Connor comes closest to being an active protagonist who makes his own decisions because he wants to, which is ironic given he’s the character with Cyberlife literally censoring his mind.
FINALLY a youtube video that doesn't hate on Quantic Dreams game. Seems like entire world hates them yet they still keep making these games. I enjoy the interactive movie type of games so I love these, especially Beyond which seems to be the least popular but imho the most interesting and emotional.
See, I really like all main characters, but at least for me, a connor game, where you could focus on the dystopian buddy-cop and deviant hunting plots would be amazing. I would actually cheer when a “connor scene” began, mainly because of the great characters and amazing pace. A whole game of that would be a buy for me, I am sure.
Ever since I played Metal Gear, I never saw games as being an expirience as a bad thing. Sure, some people may not like it, but look at it like a movie, but better. It's all about expectations
I’m a huge fan of Detroit. This just came up on my recommendation and unfortunately I don’t have the time to watch it right now, but I want to leave this comment in case I forget. The art used in the thumbnail is by SunsetAgain - I just wanted to make sure that there was clear permission and credit given? Just because I didn’t see it in the description and there is a history of people stealing their art. Thanks for your response.
I like the minimalist input. I specifically set the controls on easy because I don't want to have to do anything. I just want to watch a movie where I control the development. That's what quantic dream provides. The game is already huge in size as it is to cover all the diverging stories. To add action game elements would not only be unreasonably high memory but also require a whole new game engine to compensate. The uncharted games you are so fond of are horrible in comparison. You are dangled this amazing story but it's held just out of reach by constantly punching you in the face with clunky assassin's creed 2 controls. I wish the uncharted games took a page from David Cage's book and strip down their controls to the basics. Something more akin to the shooting in telltale's the walking dead.
I love this game but I also have issues with the storytelling of the game. Truly the best, most satisfying endings come from when you play the pacifist route which are in my opinion also just kinda unrealistic and utopianist. What I find unrealistic is that the social change part of the story IS black and white. You choose peaceful and all the humans are like oh maybe they do have feelings. You choose to fight and all the humans leave Detroit and androids take over, they're seen as THE ENEMY. Real-life is always grey and even movements that were largely peaceful still had violence within them.
Good video. I do think having more game play integrated into it would be awesome. However I have noticed it has given a lot of "non typical gamers" a chance to play a video game that isn't so overwhelming; my mom being one 😅
Late to the party but here's my 2 cents. 1) i actually liked being forced along for the ride rather than having to play out more of their actions. It prevents me from changing my mind partway through an action and since there's multiple characters, i'm seeing their personalities instead of playing them all as an extention of me. 2) i watched the first 10 mins or so of gameplay to see if i would like it, then played it through before watching someone else play it. It's honestly fascinating to get the reasoning behind people's choices in the game. As connor, i looked at every piece of evidence and got outside as soon as possible. My friend was used to having all the time in the world to play games and so scoured every inch of the rooms and so ended up not making it outside in time. 3) except for marcus, i felt my decisions were natural to me based on my knowledge of the characters and story so far. As connor on the roof, i chose to leave hank and connor gave the exact same reasoning i had thought of. As my choices kept compounding and i learned more, the choices i would have made always seemed to be an option and i could keep making them, regardless of whether that would be the right or wrong path. As kara i was so intent on keeping the kid safe that i refused to pay attention to all the signs pointing out that she was also an android and so had to come to terms with it when kara did, too. I was fully invested in their stories because we grew together. Marcus was just kinda there for plot filler, it felt like. 4) i had problems with replayability because i played it based on my own logic first and any playthrough after was me forcing myself to choose a different route. I have a hard time with games with both peaceful and renegade routes since i tend to just go for one and then never go back to try the other
Boi, you can't really hate life is strange that much due to how unique it is. I never would of thought of a superpower choose your own adventure game about bending time itself.
I believe the reason they decided to use button promps in fight scenes is because they still wanted to use movieesque camera work. It simply would feel super put of place if the camera suddenly changed to something from assasins creed
It's amazing how Once upon a time the white samurai was our enemy but dew to the total Chad skill of cooking for the best of the best he became our lord and last but not least The fabled EFAP 100 in all its power has made Tonald our friend! Great video LT keep up the quality, long live the long man and may the Don be with you 👍
I disagree about needing more live gameplay. The game doesn’t even let you sprint all the time and jump around like a moron. The rule is this: Don’t break immersion. The guided fight scenes were so intense I felt I was actually in a struggle. I can go hack and slash or aim down a scope in any other game, but this felt real. Quantum Dreams, please don’t change.
I was unaware of those David Cage quotes on game design itself, and find them right on the money. It's frustrating though because I think the actual plot of the stories he tells are pretty hackneyed despite their unique settings and dressings. But Detroit really does feel like it's approaching that level of 'Well, if I'm going to have to play movie games, I guess I'd like them to be like this at least'. And I think the Connor and Hank story was, again despite being a bit cliche, really fun.
It was the first game of this type I had played. I loved the game, it had some overly generic parts but overall the story and characters really got me invested. Kara was my favorite of the three, I liked how she was just caught up in all the madness and had little control over the events of the game.
one thing i definitely had a problem with in this game is their use of real life events for fictional characters. for example, as a Jewish person i was incredibly taken aback when i saw the androids being taken to basically concentration camps. a lot of my family were murdered in camps and i find it really offensive that this game would compare real life suffering to their dinky game about robots. i was also taken aback as a gay person when they used the upside down triangle to mark the androids. (if you don't know, during the holocaust, gay people were marked with pink upside down triangles so they could be brutally murdered.)
Great video Tonald. Detroit was one of my favorite games, so it’s cool to hear you talk about it. I don’t know if it’s your type of game, but I’d love to see a video from you about Persona 5/Persona 5 Royal.
I've been told a lot about how this game just is not that good, regarding the game-play. Feels really good to hear a vary fair take on the game as a hole. May just pick it up and give it a play through. Thanks for the amazing video!!!
If you don't have very big expectations for games, then Detroit actually is a pretty good game, def better than beyond two souls, and has more choices than heavy rain, though I really liked Heavy rain (would also recommend it)
@@Chris3s I love beyond two souls but I'm a sucker for elliot's performance in it. I think DBH gets the idea of choice and consequence light years better than what Beyond had. The end left me yearning for more despite understanding the intention while Detroit felt like a nicely made present.
I regret not watching gameplays of this game when it released because of the stupid critic reviews. Only watched the gameplay few weeks ago. This game has one of the best stories in videogames and now I'm obsessed with it. No movie or game has made me this emotional before. There are some cheesy moments and plot holes but the game and character development makes up for it. The music is phenomenal too!! You should definitely give this game a try bud!
19:47 An interesting concept that I'll always feel was a missed opportunity was having Leo, Simon's son, become the 3rd playable character after Markus gets shot and presumably killed. It not only grants a human perspective to the game but also gives better build-up/payoff for Markus and Jericho by keeping them in the background until the final act of the story, where their actions and behavior can be determined based on the choices you make as Connor, Kara, and especially Leo. Markus' story is fine but it always felt like giving the player full control over the resistance diminished the scope/impact of Jericho and undermined the entire structure of the game, aka making choices that both directly and indirectly influence the rest of the story.
I’m ok with the lack of “real” gameplay for a more focused story. What is a huge flaw in these types of games is that they’re not even games, they’re interactive adventures. This is a movie where you can make the decisions, not a game, since there’s no skill needed to go though the game. If it was up to me, I’d get rid of the “game” title and fully endorse the fact that there’s no gameplay. I’m not going to spoil you TLOU2, but what i can say that in that game, they try to do both things, and it falls flat on the ground, because it doesn’t let you choose, but it also expects you to do things in QTEs. I’d love to see Tony do at least a video series (if he’s not confortable with stream, although it would be amazing seeing him live) of TLOU2 so he can deconstruct the game.
So your saying these "games" are more like the choose you own path adventure novels?.... "you see a door on your left and right- you pick the right... go to page 53". I would say they are still video games like those are still books. Maybe we are missing a more descriptive word or classification to differentiate one from another. But I think the word game is too broad for these such games to be excluded from. B/c whether they have alot of in game interaction or a little of interaction there is still interaction putting it in the game category.
Cyscosystar the Imperial Precisely. I think that if they really put they’re effort into the story without that much of a need for QTEs, the story would be even more interesting, although that could make the demographic a bit narrow, since the appeal of videogames is mostly because of the gameplay. It would be a nice concept to experiment (in a perfect world where profit isn’t a factor) seeing how the public may react to a choose you own path style of game.
Last of us 2 is the biggest wasted opportunity on planet earth. It could have pushed interactive fiction to massive heights. Would have been the biggest game ever. But we got woke trash. Jesus. 🤯🤯🤯🤯
This is great! You are right that there is something there, but in my opinion the constraints of the gameplay always feels like it holds back the overall package.
I am *SO* glad Detroit did not opt for a cover-based shooter option here 11:00 ! Not every game has to be a shooter, especially not the few who dare stray from your run-of-the-mill "triple A" CoDs. It would even hurt the game, because the player cannot possibly play like a machine (android). On a sidenote: I'm (now at age 33) a casual gamer and hate when games like Unchrated or Tomb Raider try to be a shooter (which never works well, because their not) without another option, because more than once this has severly interrupted my progress and satisfaction with the game experience.
"I'm not some pretentious wannabe game designer that's searching for existentialism through a haze of bong smoke." - Lord Tonald Loke, Our Savior you were amazing on efap!
I got into gaming when I got my ps3 (ps4 was already around for couple of years) and I brought Heavy rain, Beyond, and TLOU, because I've heard of them so much. Started with Cage's games first, so when I played TLOU and failed for the first time, was really surprised for a second to see Joel being torn apart by infected and "game over" screen. And, well, TLOU is polar opposite of Cage's games especially with that finale. I think interactivity to this degree is a gameplay on itself and it's reasonable to compromise with "game" part in favour of branching narrative and replayability. There always be a market for that as long as story is strong. Couldn't play Detroit myself, but watched all there is on UA-cam when it came out and enjoyed it. Story isn't perfect, but totally agree that it's an experience more than anything. Keep up the good work and it was joy to hear you on EFAP. You're doing great.
Games like these are great to bring people that are not familiar with gaming into more gameplay based titles. It also pushes regular games to push towards more narrative driven choices. WIN WIN.
I honestly loved the game but I do disagree with your assessment on the criticism towards female characters. Cara is a hero for sure but her whole depiction is pretty stereotypical. She‘s a pretty white character who acts submissive, soft and gentle and often behaves hesitantly and motherly. What else does cara have going for her other than wanting to protect Alice and be her mom? Well she‘s pro rebellion ofc but generally I‘d say not much. She doesn‘t seem to have any other life goals other than Alice. To me she just feels empty tbh. Aside from hesitant little damsel who tries to survive the many big bad wolfs thrown at her and wanting to mother a child she‘s got noting else that really defines her. Aka literally the stereotype of the suburban submissive housewife. Just sprinkled in a little self defense and stuff but that‘s it. The other women (forgot her name been a long time) who lead the rebellion wirh marcus imo was much better because she had motivations and a distinct voice. She just felt more real to me as a woman myself. I think that‘s also why so many people love Connor so much. He‘s got perhaps the biggest character arc of em all and he did really change through his arc unlike the others. Sure Marcus became a leader and Cara did save Alice and herself in the end (if u count the good ending as canon) but only one character really had a arc lead to change in his character and that‘s connor. And I‘d argue that‘s what makes relateable characters as well. Humans change all the time. Look back on urself from 5 years ago and you‘ll see that. It‘s natural. Change is fluid and neverending for humans. And so should our fictional characters. They shouldn‘t experience all this shit and come out the same as before. They should advance and change through it like we do. If they don‘t it feels artificial. And I‘d argue Cara got it the worst here. What I‘d have preferred for her would be to start off as subserviant and gentle and change due to not only fear and survival instinct but also gain confidence. I never really felt like she did gain much. She started like a scared rabbit and felt just the same at the end. Just free from the threat. Cara didn‘t discover who she is, what she wants for herself, who she wants to be and she doesn‘t really have a bigger connection to any character either except for alice wich also doesn‘t extend beyond basic „perfect“ mom behavior. To me she‘s just a walking talking stereotype. The only thing missing here is a man saving her. Her arc felt more like a propaganda piece on how fragile, incompetent and submissive women are when left alone in a dangerous situation and having to fend for themselves. And that‘s exactly because Cara never advances, she never gains more confidence. At least it really doesn‘t feel like it to me. Change would be what Marcus went throuxh for example. A lost and confused young man to a strong determined leader for justice. He has a clear change. From being hesitant to ever express himself or speak up to speaking up loudly and proudly. That‘s real development. Not just surviving through hours and hours and not changing a single bit only ever being the „mom“ character with no personality. And that‘s what ppl didn‘t like. It‘s the fact that most struggle for women in his games are men overpowering women, trying to mutilate them, abuse them, assault them or control them. It‘s the same with Maddison in Heavy rain. She‘s victimized multiple times in the games by men. Not to mention the guy who taxidermized women. All women seem to get in his games is being the pretty little pig to be slaughtered trying to not be by the scary man. And that‘s it. They are just either a love interest for the protag or a stereotype immune to character development. The rebellion woman in detroit was the only one who broke the mold and she also was then again just thrown in to be the obligatory love interest for the „real main character“ marcus. I gotta say I‘m quite sick of men claiming there aren‘t sexist undertones cause there are and maybe you should listen to the women who say so and hear them out before speaking for them yet again claiming they are full of sh“t cause you know everything better. You can‘t speak from the same perspective we do because you aren‘t a woman. That doesn‘t mean you can‘t agree or disagree but you saying „it‘s not sexist so stfu.“ isn‘t gonna make it less sexist. That‘s honestly why I get mad over these things. Women are gaming as well. Always have been yet we‘ve been misrepresented and used as accessories for male heroes in games for so long it‘s bone dry and boring aside from utterly insulting. Women are human beings for gods sake. We aren‘t some mythological creature you can‘t comprehend. We are mostly the same aside from miniscule differences and if you spemt time with women you‘d know this too. But the dismissal of women‘s criticism towards games like this has to stop cause women play these games too. It isn‘t all about you all the time. It‘s about everyone who plays. And that includes women. And it‘ll take more to convince me the game‘s not got these sexist undertones than a guy getting triggered women yet again dared to critisize your precious games and replying in the most naggy, bitter way possible.
So you basically went a "pacifist route" for Kara and complain that YOUR CHOICES make her like that ... Kara can kill Todd and several guards, rob a store and set Zlatko's house on fire. She can also leave Alice behind at least twice.
Woman wants to be a mother and be left alone with all that heroic bullshit. And you found her unrealistic? Kara is the most realistic character in the game because she's average.
22:31 If I recall correctly, the Android rebellion cannot succeed (at least not without major losses) if North leads in Marcus’ place. She either dies by US soldiers, is shot by Connor, or is spared by Connor but the rebellion has been crushed and everyone she loved is dead by then. The odds are stacked up against her immensely when compared to Markus. Some would say because North is aggressive in her tactics but Markus can be aggressive as well and still have better chances.
there's so much different outcomes, i started the game 2 months ago and i still accidentally spoil myself on scenes i haven't come across because the different roads are so vast. my brother bought the game for me and there's times when i hesitate to play it because i'm so overwhelmed by what i can do and what can happen. i want to talk about the game with fans, but i stop myself everytime because then i remember that they know all possible moments in the game and i don't. so i'm just stuck in this bog right now lol.
To be honest, I do agree that it could’ve been a tv series and much like the Bandersnatch episode of Black Mirror the multiple choice story could still work. Great video !!
I love this take but I just cant relate to his opinion on the controls. I LOVE the QTE's. It's another element playing into the butterfly effect. Instead of a question and answer choice, it's a quick on the spot choice (or move) that you need to make that could change the game entirely! Its awesome. Thats why until dawn is also so cool. I think these butterfly effect games thrive when they use QTE's
Really would love to see The las of us get this same sort of treatment when you play the sequel, from your comments on EFAP it sounds like you have a lot of passion for the original. Thank you for your appearance on EFAP 100. can’t wait to see your next video have been loving your content.
This game is definitely for me.. I've played twice and I also saw the "Kara" short when it released way before the game, and I've always been totally obsessed with the whole concept, I love it 💙
I think, its good in that it tried a lot of things. But there are definitely a lot of things that didn't quite land. I hope they keep developing and iterating on it
"You didn't play the game the way I wanted you to play, so now you're punished and you're going to come back and play it again until you do what I want you to do" If that isn't ironic, I don't know what is.
I don't think that D:BH would have been much different if it was an interactive cinematic, like something that Netflix did with Black Mirror or Markiplier has done on UA-cam in the past. I appreciate and understand that some aspects would only work in a game, like the detective work Connor can only do because the player is directly controlling the character. I don't, however, believe that the story or experience is driven by this gameplay, or that QTEs are what drive the heightened anxiety in certain scenes, I can get those same moments by watching a TV show or a movie.
While I agree with most of your points I would say that it's kind of stupid to not like the game or say that its "okay" just cause you didn't get to do the action scenes yourself. The whole POINT of the game was to tell a story, not to have the player beat people up. If you wanted to play a game like that why play Detriot? I think games that follow more of a story than just combat and beating the shit out of people are way more fun and complicated. Also if they did let the player do the fighting scenes it probably would have looked way worse, since the game is made to almost look like a movie, to put choppy fighting scenes in would have ruined the feeling. And this game was made by having real actors play out the part, LIKE A MOVIE. They would have had to completely change how they animated the characters just to let you hit a couple of guys. Idk I just think its stupid to rate such a good game "okay" cause you wanted to punch people by pushing buttons which is what you complained about in the first place. In the end, the game isn't meant to be an action game its a storytelling game and it told a great fucking story.
I’m glad i subscribed. As you talked about choice, I thought about morality in gaming. Some games make you feel bad for the outcomes but there was no way to prevent it, while what you present seems like you can feel good or bad and that’s on you. Can’t speak about story quality myself because I didn’t play the game, but that factor of “you create your effect by creating the cause” is amazing
After years, Detroit is still the best choice-based interactive game I've ever played. Telltale's TWD S1 was .y favorite until this game releases, I understand how telltale's stories, characters and choices are not that great once I finished Detroit. I've played the game after my sister and both of the endings we got are very different from each other. Also the theme of the game was great. All of the 3 mc's are interesting and they have their own character developments and motivations makes the game amazing. It's one of the few games that I've rated 10/10. Of course there are some things that I didn't like about the game such as how the principal withdraws the units after she sees Markus and North's kiss, that was just a weak moment fr but there is no game, movie, series which are perfect.
well, as a shit gamer, i liked the fact that the gameplay was simple, so not to pull me out of the story. and by shit gamer, for the first hours i had to look down to the controller to remember were the buttons were. this is the only game i was able to play and talk about with my friend because the most interesting thing for us was the story and the characters. and my friend who is actually competent could share something he liked with someone who wouldn't normally enjoy it. so, i get the bad game mechanics argument, but it has its perks ^^
To be fair, the last Telltale Batman game did give you a couple hours of drastically different story line to play at the end of the game depending on your choices but otherwise your correct telltale was infamous for giving you a false illusion of choice.
The only reason the button prompts exist is to give you the ability to fail and have consequences for picking certain actions, hence adding to more butterfly effect pathways. Gameplay isn’t the point, to turn these sections into fully fleshed out game mechanics would be completely unnecessary and take away from the pace of the story and the impact of your mistakes. Sometimes it’s okay for a game to not be a traditional cookie cutter beat em up or action adventure title, some games don’t have to have everything, because it takes away from what the point of the game really is, to tell you a story of your making.
Hey everyone! There are a few movie references I've snuck in here, see if you can find them.
If you're interested in listening to me on a podcast I was just on EFAP's 100th anniversary which you can watch here:
ua-cam.com/video/GBwthFqAR6o/v-deo.html&
0:00 Introduction
3:30 Initial Thoughts
9:03 Gameplay
12:28 Premise
17:18 Conner
20:00 Kara
23:11 Markus
25:41 Final Thoughts
Father Tone yes
Would love to see a video with the serious topic discussed on EFAP. I think it could help a lot of people. Family/Friends/Happiness is whats important in life, not chasing the last cent. The parts talking about passion were also wonderful. Tonald seems to be such a deep/kind person..
So glad you went on EFAP! Hope to see you join the boys again soon! Keep up the great work dude!
I loved seeing you on EFAP, you seem like a very nice person. Love watching your vids you improved quite a lot.
Was great to see you on EFAP, well done!
For real though: Connor and Hank should have their own buddy-cop Netflix series.
Same goes for Markus and Kara which could be really awesome
its called mindhunter :))
*Netflix asscheeks.
SamWallace Art I know David cage loves to go on to make new IP’s and isn’t a fan of sequels but honestly I think he would benefit greatly from creating another Detroit game that focuses all on Connor and Hank investigating crimes. Connor was easily the most interesting and enjoyable character to play and everybody that I heard of wanted more of him.
Father son relationship
Detroit Become Human is supposed to be less of a "game" and more of an "interactive *Movie* " being played out that you're along for the ride. And you know what, I'm ok with that. It's a darn fun movie.
So by that standard I'm way ok with there being less real time gameplay and just being interactive cutscenes.
The concept of an interactive movie is interesting, ive seen some a few in netflix but they’re okay. It would be nice seeing more, depending on the genre and concept.
Wouldn't it still make it a game though? I feel like going out of our ways to distinguish these things from each other and kind of bring down these experiences to a "not games" standard prevents us from reaching potentials games can have. I don't know, that's how I think of it at least.
@@connorp3764 It still is a game yes. the general people feel that games *must* have open world and constant gameplay. but that is not the case. Heck way long ago games used to be point and click adventures and they were still considered games. Why can't Detroit Become human be one then.
@@pyguy7 yeah, that's sort of my thinking. I feel like the medium is going through some really shitty growing pains as the "nerdy gamer" culture when it was first a pretty niche platform and modern mainstream gaming are absolutely refusing to coexist. I really don't know why and when it will end, but I think we're somewhat getting there with more mainstream games against this like Detroit and debatably death stranding, but I honestly don't know.
With that logic though, doesn't that make visual novels interactive movies? I get your point but you have to remember just because you don't get the kick ass and stuff doesn't make it less of a game.
Fantastic video. You're definitely correct, Detroit Become Human is much more of an experience than a game, but without it being a game, it wouldn't work, and I loved every single second of said experience. I played through it three times and wound up with three wildly different endings, so it's safe to say that this video is easily the fairest review of the game on UA-cam. Thanks again for coming on EFAP 100 and may The Don bless you.
Yeah. I agree with both. Somewhat. I just cannot bring myself to see these types of... media as games. Or to categorize it at all. It doesnt feel as a game really, but neither as a movie or a show. It's just the uncanny valley of the modern entertainment industry looking for its place in it.
@@radimnechut519 What about "Interactive Movie" or "Lite Game"?
@@RED_Theory038 Yeah, yeah for sure. That's what I implied; it needs imo a new category indeed. That's what probably hurts the most with some people, 'gamers' I shal call them. I saw IH streams and some others, where the person playing starts trashing it a bit or not taking it as seriously because of, well, it not really being a game in the traditional sense of the word. It would help those games a lot to stop calling themselves games. People might like 'Lite game', interactive show/series, something like that. And then there are games sitting on the fence, really, like TLOU2, which rings some bells for me (apart from the story, pacing and all the other problems).
@@RED_Theory038 But at that point, frankly if you think about it, you get into the problem that games that are called RPG have not a sinlge drop of the vial of role-playing etc. And that can be an infinately deep rabbit hole. So I dunno is what am sayin...
@@radimnechut519 What bothers me, as far as games calling themselves RPGs, is when they take all the wrong lessons of what makes a compelling RPG. Games like Assassins Creed: Odyssey come to mind, where before in the series it would most definitely be an stealth action game, then the devs think adding in arbitrary stat numbers, a loot system filled with junk, dissatisfying filler side quests to pad out the game, damage sponge enemies, etc. makes it an RPG.
Forgot to mention “Until Dawn”. Everything you do has an effect throughout the game and the characters can die at any moment based on the player’s decisions
Nah its also a false choice game. Doesn't have nearly as much choice as detorit
@@egbelanh what are you talking about? If you like choice, until dawn give you much more choice and consequence than the Detroit. Even the "sequel" Man of medan was superior in that regard.
@@egbelanh I disagree with you. Until Dawn have some many different outcomes that you would surprised that are in the game. Until Dawn is second to Detroit to be honest.
I LOVE until dawn so much. I just hope their studio gets their shit together and make another game like it. Little hope and mandan weren’t good in the least. Hopefully the one they’re working on rn will be good. Though I thought the multiplayer in littl hope was a good idea.
I mean, it's a Grey line, the ending will always be the same regardless on how poor you play but what always changes is if your characters live or die
I feel like one issue with this video is the complete non-mention of the visual novel genre which has been perpetuating true choice for over 2 decades now
Zipper Man Yeah, a lot of people think ill of them, but it's funny watching how even some basic VNs have more of a consecuence for your actions than Telltale games xD
+1
VNs, great as they are, have always been a niche. Given that they are produced almost exclusively in Japan, they are readily perceived in the West as "weeb shit" and easily dismissed.
I don't believe Lord Tonald (long may he reign) has an interest in Anime or Manga, so I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't really know that the genre exists. If he sees this comment, I'd strongly recommend Stein's;Gate as an entry to the genre - all the deep philosophical and science-fiction themes of games like Detroit: Become Human, and more.
I think the guy was referring to specifically AAA titles. Visual novel games don’t usually get that sort of recognition
He did only for two seconds and it was only for a reference
I had no idea Kara could have ended up in the recycling plant! I got her onto a bus to Canada somehow
In my play-through Alice died while crossing the river to Canada but Kara survived.
@@vanavoid8869 did you choose to give up or carry on?
@@vanavoid8869 How does that even happen? Do you have to have low relationship with her? Cuz Kara and Alice both survive always when I do the River ending
@@MistahJay7 Alice gets Shot, Kara does not.
How do they end up in the recycling camp? Do they have to get caught at the bus station or what?
I hope so desperately that we get another game with the investigation mechanics from Connor's sections. Especially being able to plan out the fight before executing it. It's super cool and I almost feel like it's wasted in a game that has no other good gameplay mechanics.
@Curly Que I don't know enough about game design to disagree, so my only argument is that maybe video games shouldn't be so story driven. They are called GAMES, so the GAMEplay should take precedent, I think. Besides the fact that the story is not that interesting, anyway. (in my humble opinion.)
@@GippyHappy I think it's fair if you prefer games where the gameplay takes precedent. But games can exist on a spectrum from very story-driven to pure gameplay-focused. There also exists a middle ground of games where both gameplay and story/decision making are important (i.e. rpg shooter games like Mass Effect, or something like The Last of US). Some of these more story-focused games, like Quantic Dream's material, like Curly Que mentioned, diverge from traditional gameplay and focus on being interactive stories, with the main gameplay element being the ability to make decisions in the story. A space for these interactive movie-type games should still exist, as they offer a different experience than movies on their own. Being able to control a widely branching storyline with many possibilities is a riveting experience for many players. Perhaps story-driven games just aren't to your taste (and again, that's perfectly fair if you don't like it), but there are many people out there that enjoy these types of games.
However I do agree with you that it would be cool to have a game with the investigation mechanics from Connor's sections, and the mechanism of preplanning fights, I also enjoyed that aspect. Also agree with you that the story in Detroit Become Human isn't the best, and is a bit generic. Although I think what the story excels at is its character writing (i.e. the Connor and Hank dynamics) more so than its plot.
@@MondayMorningMist I think a story is cool, but at some point the story takes over and it become less "video game" and more "interactive story" or "movie where you press buttons sometimes". I honestly feel like they should be in a separate category. Like I can watch a let's play or no commentary version of Detroit or other games like it and not feel like I missed anything, but I get more personal satisfaction out of playing games myself when the actual gameplay is fun. You know?
Different strokes and all that, just my personal opinion. I just think the word "game" is getting stretched in this instance.
I said game too many times
The most messed up Kara fail state is in "Stormy Night". If you don't become a deviant and obey Todd, he'll go up and kill his daughter and then you, blaming you for her death.
Can't kill a machine
@@henrycrabs3497 i think its some kind of loop in the most realistic sense
@@henrycrabs3497 by that logic you can’t kill a human
@@henrycrabs3497 Another reason why the Alice being an android twist sucks ass...
@@Star-wb2ovnot much if you consider that Todd was a messed up dude that needed a family to keep him company
I actually feel that the outcome chart they show you at the end of each chapter-is a genius way to encourage replaying the game. Like yeah the big paths you could easily deduce to the A or B choice you were given in that chapter. But it’s those tiny branches that show up all over major story beats that just make you wonder “oh what was that” or “wait what did I miss” or “OMG I did miss a dialogue option”. It strikes that curiosity in your brain that makes you wonder what you missed.
I genuinely find it to be a genius strategy to encourage people to do multiple playthroughs
You praise the fighting animation and I imagine it's because of it's cool matrix style cinematic feel, but have you considered that if the developers made this this game to be more of a traditional game with the usual fighting game mechanics interactivity it would lose that aspect of the fights in favour of fighting that would look more like the arkham games or something else?
Yeah, it would. I think that's his point, despite how well made the fight choreography is, it's not supposed to happen if you want to let the player well, play.
I can't really see it that way since I'm a DBH fangirl but I kind of get his point.
Criminally under-rated game. Played it twice also (second time purposely going opposite to my initial game) and it was fantastic 👌. I cant wait to see what Cage does with PS5
Certainly he will take his time for his next game, but it won't be announced before at least 2024 or 2025.
Honestly this game was soo good I want a sequel, I feel they need to keep the characters as charismatic and engaging like Connot and Hank, one of the things I love of Breaking Bad and BCS its that almost all the characters are amazing
@@justanotherblackwhitemicke7817 I would love a sequel. it’s never really said if they could gain freedom long term or if it’s temporary. I would like to see Connor and Hanks relationship grow as well as Kara and her little family. But since there’s multiple endings i don’t think it’ll happen
@@justanotherblackwhitemicke7817 i would love one, but it doesn’t really seem possible. Theres too many different choices and endings a player could have had. And if they blew up Detroit there really cant he a sequel. It would have to be an update that adds onto the already existing choices the player made
@@justanotherblackwhitemicke7817 It should never have one. It's a great game, but part of the appeal to the endings is that there is no *real* ending. You choose what happens, and those characters are people you control. What happens is up to you, and to make a sequel would rob that from the player
The point you made about missing entire portions of the game is so true. I didnt even know the recycling center level was a part of the game until my third playthrough. I was so surprised to see that literally an entire section can get cut out if your choices dictate it
My problem with dbh was probably how forced the north love was, thought they could atleast have simon as an option, they have most of the same interactions, I just really disliked north lmao
oh same. shes insufferable and the romance was unnecessary :/
@Abigail Pritchard yeahh I heard that too, people think its cause homophobia
And bruh i literally tried so hard to not have to romance north and it still happened cause i didnt want her to hate me, Simon would have been a wayy better option or even just the choice not to be with her without hate, or if you go the violent route be with north and if you go the peaceful route go with Simon idk
Simon would've been an interesting choice honestly.
@Isabella Krautstrunk HOW
@@casper9104 help Simon at Stratford tower and don’t kill him.
18:29 I completely agree. You could really feel the tension between his orders and the (subjectively) more empathetic or reasonable choices that contradict his orders. And the tension was really felt at moments that you couldn’t quite tell what’s right or wrong.
This is really good my guy.
Oh, it’s that guy who geeked out with the girl during efap 100.
the name giver
The fake Fall Guy
BEHOLD! Our Lord Tonald Loke has gifted us with a long man video. PRAISE BE!
PRAISE BE!
I absolutely LOVED playing as Connor. He is definitely my favourite character, and the relationship dynamic between Hank and Connor is so heartwarming. They start by being cold and distant to one another to friends and I love that sort of relationship progression in all kinds of media. I also really love how choices actually have consequences. I adore this game. If anyone is questioning whether they should play it, YES, YOU DEFINITELY SHOULD!!
I absolutely love Connor. Not just his character but how I relate to him. Being controlled by cyberlife to do their dirty work, struggling with his relationship with hank, his fear of failing at the beginning. These kinda play out in my own life as well and I just love playing as Connor
@@thatwoofle4432 When you think about it, Connor was only made to cover Cyberlife's ass. I'm so glad we were given the storyline option of him deviating. I've never seen a relationship like Hank and Connor's in a video game before and it's so refreshing and intriguing to see.
Tsundere Hank haah
@@Anal_Flute I love their father-son bond in the Ideal Option
Connor killed Hank in my first play through. Then he killed Marcus and his girlfriend ending the robot uprising. Then he got replaced by a upgraded Connor. What a shitshow.
Tonald slowly becoming a long man! Keep up the good work Tone
Praise the Don, and keep up the awesome work Tone.
He's evolving as a critic
TONALD: Become Long
"There's nothing less interactive than watching a cool fight scene play out than kick the guys' ass yourself"
And yet there's nothing more *Awesome* looking, than watching a cool fight scene play out than kick the guys' ass yourself.
It's cinematic vs interactiveness/gameplay. Honestly I'm GLAD we watch Connor kick ass in a CUTSCENE than watch someone personally perform moves to beat them up manually and here's why: Cinematography. A well toned cutscene will always be more enjoyable and pleasing to watch as a viewing experience because the camera is purposefully designed for each shot for the most dynamic and exciting viewpoints. basically it's well crafted. Give control fully to the player and the camera will never be as intimate or well tuned. They tend to be more haphazard in order to follow the player (this is not always the case but usually it is). It can be almost as cool to watch, but never actually matches the same cinematic experience as watching a finely tuned cutscene with shots placed with specific purpose.
I'm GLAD the Conner fight scenes are "Scenes" and not gameplay. It looks way cooler. It just wouldnt be as cool if they weren't.
You have to ask yourself if you really honestly think giving control to the player would net as cool a cinematic as those fight scenes.
the qte fight sequences are probably my favourite part of the game, and real gameplay would never match the level of catharsis you get, especially in markus' riot fight scenes.
i didnt feel like it was less interactive either, i felt like the result of the fight depended on my performance in the qte, which is ultimately what matters in a story game about different choices and outcomes
Exactly, the control the player has is in the choices they make.
Connor was the best storyline, in my opinion (I believe it is the popular one). Probably because he feels like the most interesting and the one that goes through the most character growth (partially depending on the route you take). It might also be a bonus that he has the storyline that is farthest away from the questionable allegory for civil rights.
Also the voice actors are good in his story
i enjoyed the video, but that bit on the "females" in dbh was kinda ehh to me. i think there is a point to be made on how trope-y the female characters are in this game. the main female character's personality revolves around her being motherly, while markus and connor get the grand world-altering storyline. sure, she can fight back against her abuser, but the criticism is more the fact that female characters are always subject to these stories. alice is a child and thus has little agency. north is The Love Interest and is once again another female character who has experienced sexual abuse. the tracys are another two characters who have experienced sexual abuse. we get not one but two of the Wise Magical Black Woman trope (and one's a villian!). besides that there's.... the little girl in the prologue?? That One Female Cop??? chloe???
This, yep. The male characters get to also fight their way to safety while not constantly being domestically or sexually abused.
The timestamps.
The introspection.
The reference to haze of bong smoke.
"EFAP's 100th Anniversary" link in the pinned comment.
This is perfection, Tonald. Your wisdom is deep, and your content is great.
None of the choices in beyond two souls have an actual consequences lol
There isn’t any choices beyond if you want the character to die. Sit on a choice long enough it gives you the choice it wants you to pick
Honestly one of my complaints with the story is that there should be more humans on the side of the androids. Human are very emotional beings and we connect very easily to things that aren’t human. I mean that’s how dogs where made. I have a hard time believing that so little people have sympathy for androids when In real life we bond with roombas. Imagine if during that one android riot where androids filled the streets, if even one human joined the riot, the police wouldn’t be able to just shoot all buck wild without the threat of killing a human being. The few (sympathic) main human characters we got where really amazing and I wish we had more of that.
I’d say that’s reasonable. Still, characters like Hank and Carl were really cool.
I mean fair but like have you seen the US? There is still over 500 anti lgbtq bills and we have been fighting for rights for so long. Not strange that this would happen.
Thankfully I live in a more open place so I don't have to worry to much but this story plays out in the US.
yes, but androids are also replacing humans. "taking" their jobs. and becuase of that unemployment, the gap between the rich and poor is much bigger. most people arent rich, so i can see why the majority doesnt like androids
I want more games like this. Why is it that we only have one decent publisher making games like this?
29:51 He said the thing guys, he said the thing!
😷 EFAP spreads!
YEEEES
I know I’m totally biased but I loved the gameplay lol I’m not great at video games and I felt like I actually had a fair shot, whereas if there were other elements added idk if I would’ve felt comfortable enough to play it. It’s unfortunate it’s not like a setting or something added to a harder level but I do love that the gameplay is just pressing buttons!! Aha
22:50 segregating androids part made sense to me. They are all standing and you wouldn't want for a toster to take a sitting space in public transport. They are basically loaded into luggage hatch.
"A toaster" Damn lmao
I feel like the light gameplay actually suits the game more. Each mechanic is tied to making a decision, but how would, say, having a moveset in combat or like, holding a trigger to control which foot you're moving add to the choices? The gameplay was built around the choices they wanted you to make, it's simple because it's streamlined, not because they were being unimaginative. If you wanted more choices, that's fine, and if you wanted a game focused on a different style of story telling that's fine too, but that's subjective and tied to what you desire from an experience. I'd liken it to a painting. It doesn't matter how good a painting depicts something or how high quality it is if it doesn't contain your favorite color.
While I like this video, I believe that a lot of things regarding Detroit's story are done better with games like Nier: Automata, and in terms of general writing, visual novels have done a lot more of what Cage has tried, but did it better.
Agreed, but that's not to say that it's not refreshing to see Western game designers taking a crack at the same core concepts. I don't really like Cage's works (played a bit of Beyond and Heavy Rain) by default, but there's so much potential in gaming as an interactive storytelling medium worth exploring.
Nier Automata is just a weird trippy ass game. Detroit become human is grounded much more in reality and even though a lot of writing is heavy-handed it’s the most easily understood. Nier has that anime style eccentricity to it that alienates a large part of gamers who don’t necessarily find appeal in the eccentric anime aesthetic. Both games have their strengths, but Detroit is more generally accessible to mainstream audiences.
@@rainyatsu4588 I agree that Automata can be off-putting for people who don't like or care about anime, and it does have its moments especially early on, but it's not just weird nonsense throughout the entire game. Saying that it has no deeper meaning or emotional resonance with the audience is just not true.
Automata is a great game with a beautiful story, I just think it's a harder initial sell than Detroit (haven't played or watched Detroit so I can't compare the two, but I'm saying not to brush Automata off as nothing but a weird anime game for weebs)
15:56 I used to despise Todd but it really hits hard once you start to notice how human he is. How eerily relatable he is.
I personally hated Leo even more than Todd 😅
I dont mind it not having actual "gameplay" But thats cuz I went into it expecting a story more than I did a game, and I liked it :)
May the Don bestow 1.2 billion blessings upon you, sir.
Great analysis. It's an interesting point about injecting more 'gamey' types of gameplay in certain segments. I know this style of game isn't for everyone, but I think asking for a cover shooter during a firefight is wanting the game to be something its not. Anyway, I've played through Detroit a few times and I'm still seeing clips in this video I had no idea existed. Detroit Become Human is quite simply the best choice-based game ever made.
I feel like this game is more of a visual novel, but if they advertised it as one, it wouldn’t be as popular as it is
mostly, i was all the way there with you, but that little diatribe about "victimization" and ""females"" really dragged down the video for me. i'd recommend you not take such a strong stance on a topic you don't seem to have the best grasp on.
Yeah I had to grimace through that part. He doesn’t seem to understand that women being put in that position in the first place is part of the problem, regardless of whether the characters have the power to kill their oppressors. Kara was the original android who broke her programming. She should have had more impact and influence on the overarching narrative and had Markus’ role as Ra9. So why was Kara’s narrative limited to being a maid in a domestic abuse setting and being a mother? Why was every other female character of note a sex worker (the Traceys and North), a child, a villain, or a magical black woman (a stereotype that has a long history with racism)?
Don’t get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed this game. But that doesn’t mean I won’t acknowledge its flaws and point it out, hoping someone out there is listening, hoping that other properties like this improve on these criticisms in the future.
@@nommyyt I felt like kara was an interesting character but you could take her out of the story and not much would change.
Yeah, I wanted to point this out as well! It is a prominent problem in David Cage's stories - women are put into these situations waaaaay more than men, to the point where you start to question if that's the only struggle Cage knows to put female characters through
@@zjm6931 Exactly. She was so removed from the overarching narrative, literally nothing she does affects it. Meanwhile, Markus and Connor's story affects her massively. Their story pretty much dictates whether Kara and Alice have a truly good ending.
In the video, he says "oh why are people complaining, look she can kill her abuser", but in reality, Kara is the most powerless character in the game. She can only depend on the actions of others (specifically men) to determine her fate. And this is yet another trope that women in fiction are constantly being put in, which normalizes this narrative and makes it so people don't even question it because they're so used to it.
Yeah... bringing up North as the potential leader of the rebellion felt like a moot point when she felt so shallow in the game
Todd, the drugged out alcoholic, reminds me of the veteran dilemma. Many on drugs or left penniless because they were used til no longer needed then forgotten.
Detroit Become Human is a very very special game, there’s genuinely nothing like it in my opinion.
the characters are so well made, voice acted, casted, just everything about the game is made so well. It’s just so refreshing to have a game that does something different & new in a very deep & beautiful storyline.
Connor & Hank is top tier.
This game changes you as a person and leaves you with lasting lessons
No it doesn't. The game makes it painfully clear after the first few sections what choices are "right" or "wrong". The lessos of this game are that of "dont be racist" and "never play "chose your own adventure" games". You either get a good ending, or you get a bad ending. Nothing seems like a hard choice when if you chose what the game obviously shows as the "moraly right" choice and always get the "good" ending out of the situation. The scene in which markus has to either shoot his ally or leave him to potentially get information extracted from him should have ended poorly if you chose the "morally right" choice. This game has a 6 year olds understanding of what a civil rights movement is and barely lets you get to see why people think poorly of androids and their cause. Nothing about this game is a lesson or changes you unless you're a 1st grader who hasn't figured out what slavery is yet.
One of my favourite games :)
Pretty close to flawless in my opinion
I think Kara’s story pool is a very cliche story of “women in danger in a harsh world” which can take on an exploitative victim-porn vibe if the writers aren’t careful. Albeit Kara does fight back, but the issue is more that Kara is never presented with decisions or story beats outside the “female victim” / “distressed mother” trope. What the media complaints miss is that the two male characters are similarly shackled to their clichés. Markus is only presented with “renegade revolutionary” type issues, and Connor is only presented Blade Runner type issues. Connor has the edge over all the characters in that he’s in the happy middle-ground between boring messiah and useless victim; right in the sweet spot of agency vs limitation that forces him into more ambiguous decisions. With Kara it’s an obvious Hide or Run option every time; with Markus it’s an obvious Peace or War option every time; but with Con-Con you have Amanda-loyalty, android rights, Hank’s relationship, adherence to protocol, as well as safety for the other characters and the conflict of interest there, to weigh in your head, so at every turn, you actually have four decisions rather than just two.
The other reason Kara catches flak is that she has a passive story; she’s only ever reacting to what’s around her or following instructions, so her story superficially comes across as disempowering. Honestly, Markus’ story is just as passive; he just looks cooler and gets more clout while doing it. I think Connor comes closest to being an active protagonist who makes his own decisions because he wants to, which is ironic given he’s the character with Cyberlife literally censoring his mind.
dude you are a genius
FINALLY a youtube video that doesn't hate on Quantic Dreams game. Seems like entire world hates them yet they still keep making these games. I enjoy the interactive movie type of games so I love these, especially Beyond which seems to be the least popular but imho the most interesting and emotional.
See, I really like all main characters, but at least for me, a connor game, where you could focus on the dystopian buddy-cop and deviant hunting plots would be amazing. I would actually cheer when a “connor scene” began, mainly because of the great characters and amazing pace. A whole game of that would be a buy for me, I am sure.
Cage’s and QD’s best game
Hope their PS5 project (if they do one) is just as good or better
The deep regret from making an unintentional bad choice is something no other game has made me feel like before.
Ever since I played Metal Gear, I never saw games as being an expirience as a bad thing. Sure, some people may not like it, but look at it like a movie, but better. It's all about expectations
I’m a huge fan of Detroit. This just came up on my recommendation and unfortunately I don’t have the time to watch it right now, but I want to leave this comment in case I forget. The art used in the thumbnail is by SunsetAgain - I just wanted to make sure that there was clear permission and credit given? Just because I didn’t see it in the description and there is a history of people stealing their art. Thanks for your response.
I like the minimalist input. I specifically set the controls on easy because I don't want to have to do anything. I just want to watch a movie where I control the development. That's what quantic dream provides. The game is already huge in size as it is to cover all the diverging stories. To add action game elements would not only be unreasonably high memory but also require a whole new game engine to compensate. The uncharted games you are so fond of are horrible in comparison. You are dangled this amazing story but it's held just out of reach by constantly punching you in the face with clunky assassin's creed 2 controls. I wish the uncharted games took a page from David Cage's book and strip down their controls to the basics. Something more akin to the shooting in telltale's the walking dead.
Really like the more long form discussion, I didn’t play this one when it was released but you’ve definitely piqued my interest.
I love this game but I also have issues with the storytelling of the game. Truly the best, most satisfying endings come from when you play the pacifist route which are in my opinion also just kinda unrealistic and utopianist. What I find unrealistic is that the social change part of the story IS black and white. You choose peaceful and all the humans are like oh maybe they do have feelings. You choose to fight and all the humans leave Detroit and androids take over, they're seen as THE ENEMY. Real-life is always grey and even movements that were largely peaceful still had violence within them.
Good video. I do think having more game play integrated into it would be awesome. However I have noticed it has given a lot of "non typical gamers" a chance to play a video game that isn't so overwhelming; my mom being one 😅
the undertale music at the end when you're highlighting just how much player freedom DBH provides is quite fitting
My personal favourite videogame of all time
Late to the party but here's my 2 cents.
1) i actually liked being forced along for the ride rather than having to play out more of their actions. It prevents me from changing my mind partway through an action and since there's multiple characters, i'm seeing their personalities instead of playing them all as an extention of me.
2) i watched the first 10 mins or so of gameplay to see if i would like it, then played it through before watching someone else play it. It's honestly fascinating to get the reasoning behind people's choices in the game. As connor, i looked at every piece of evidence and got outside as soon as possible. My friend was used to having all the time in the world to play games and so scoured every inch of the rooms and so ended up not making it outside in time.
3) except for marcus, i felt my decisions were natural to me based on my knowledge of the characters and story so far. As connor on the roof, i chose to leave hank and connor gave the exact same reasoning i had thought of. As my choices kept compounding and i learned more, the choices i would have made always seemed to be an option and i could keep making them, regardless of whether that would be the right or wrong path. As kara i was so intent on keeping the kid safe that i refused to pay attention to all the signs pointing out that she was also an android and so had to come to terms with it when kara did, too. I was fully invested in their stories because we grew together. Marcus was just kinda there for plot filler, it felt like.
4) i had problems with replayability because i played it based on my own logic first and any playthrough after was me forcing myself to choose a different route. I have a hard time with games with both peaceful and renegade routes since i tend to just go for one and then never go back to try the other
Boi, you can't really hate life is strange that much due to how unique it is. I never would of thought of a superpower choose your own adventure game about bending time itself.
Yes you can. The game is terrible.
@@Lorenzo_I. I see it as middle ground it's not good it's not bad either
Youre not that imaginative are you
the game is trash but it's MY trash yaknow?
@@tylerf.145 yes a game can have bad reviews but if you enjoy it it doesn't matter
I believe the reason they decided to use button promps in fight scenes is because they still wanted to use movieesque camera work. It simply would feel super put of place if the camera suddenly changed to something from assasins creed
It's amazing how Once upon a time the white samurai was our enemy but dew to the total Chad skill of cooking for the best of the best he became our lord and last but not least The fabled EFAP 100 in all its power has made Tonald our friend! Great video LT keep up the quality, long live the long man and may the Don be with you 👍
I disagree about needing more live gameplay. The game doesn’t even let you sprint all the time and jump around like a moron. The rule is this: Don’t break immersion. The guided fight scenes were so intense I felt I was actually in a struggle. I can go hack and slash or aim down a scope in any other game, but this felt real. Quantum Dreams, please don’t change.
I was unaware of those David Cage quotes on game design itself, and find them right on the money. It's frustrating though because I think the actual plot of the stories he tells are pretty hackneyed despite their unique settings and dressings. But Detroit really does feel like it's approaching that level of 'Well, if I'm going to have to play movie games, I guess I'd like them to be like this at least'. And I think the Connor and Hank story was, again despite being a bit cliche, really fun.
It was the first game of this type I had played. I loved the game, it had some overly generic parts but overall the story and characters really got me invested. Kara was my favorite of the three, I liked how she was just caught up in all the madness and had little control over the events of the game.
one thing i definitely had a problem with in this game is their use of real life events for fictional characters. for example, as a Jewish person i was incredibly taken aback when i saw the androids being taken to basically concentration camps. a lot of my family were murdered in camps and i find it really offensive that this game would compare real life suffering to their dinky game about robots. i was also taken aback as a gay person when they used the upside down triangle to mark the androids. (if you don't know, during the holocaust, gay people were marked with pink upside down triangles so they could be brutally murdered.)
Thanks for this review. Man I really love the direction you've taken this channel.
Great video Tonald. Detroit was one of my favorite games, so it’s cool to hear you talk about it. I don’t know if it’s your type of game, but I’d love to see a video from you about Persona 5/Persona 5 Royal.
I've been told a lot about how this game just is not that good, regarding the game-play. Feels really good to hear a vary fair take on the game as a hole. May just pick it up and give it a play through. Thanks for the amazing video!!!
If you don't have very big expectations for games, then Detroit actually is a pretty good game, def better than beyond two souls, and has more choices than heavy rain, though I really liked Heavy rain (would also recommend it)
@@Chris3s I love beyond two souls but I'm a sucker for elliot's performance in it. I think DBH gets the idea of choice and consequence light years better than what Beyond had. The end left me yearning for more despite understanding the intention while Detroit felt like a nicely made present.
I regret not watching gameplays of this game when it released because of the stupid critic reviews. Only watched the gameplay few weeks ago.
This game has one of the best stories in videogames and now I'm obsessed with it. No movie or game has made me this emotional before. There are some cheesy moments and plot holes but the game and character development makes up for it. The music is phenomenal too!!
You should definitely give this game a try bud!
19:47
An interesting concept that I'll always feel was a missed opportunity was having Leo, Simon's son, become the 3rd playable character after Markus gets shot and presumably killed. It not only grants a human perspective to the game but also gives better build-up/payoff for Markus and Jericho by keeping them in the background until the final act of the story, where their actions and behavior can be determined based on the choices you make as Connor, Kara, and especially Leo. Markus' story is fine but it always felt like giving the player full control over the resistance diminished the scope/impact of Jericho and undermined the entire structure of the game, aka making choices that both directly and indirectly influence the rest of the story.
Tonald, the Apostle of The Don. Serving the cosmic chicken. Tonald will save us against Diabetico.
We need the White Samuari!
Just realized that CYBERPUNK 2077 stole the Braindance Feature from Conner's detective mode.
I’m ok with the lack of “real” gameplay for a more focused story. What is a huge flaw in these types of games is that they’re not even games, they’re interactive adventures. This is a movie where you can make the decisions, not a game, since there’s no skill needed to go though the game. If it was up to me, I’d get rid of the “game” title and fully endorse the fact that there’s no gameplay. I’m not going to spoil you TLOU2, but what i can say that in that game, they try to do both things, and it falls flat on the ground, because it doesn’t let you choose, but it also expects you to do things in QTEs. I’d love to see Tony do at least a video series (if he’s not confortable with stream, although it would be amazing seeing him live) of TLOU2 so he can deconstruct the game.
So your saying these "games" are more like the choose you own path adventure novels?.... "you see a door on your left and right- you pick the right... go to page 53". I would say they are still video games like those are still books. Maybe we are missing a more descriptive word or classification to differentiate one from another. But I think the word game is too broad for these such games to be excluded from. B/c whether they have alot of in game interaction or a little of interaction there is still interaction putting it in the game category.
Cyscosystar the Imperial Precisely. I think that if they really put they’re effort into the story without that much of a need for QTEs, the story would be even more interesting, although that could make the demographic a bit narrow, since the appeal of videogames is mostly because of the gameplay. It would be a nice concept to experiment (in a perfect world where profit isn’t a factor) seeing how the public may react to a choose you own path style of game.
Last of us 2 is the biggest wasted opportunity on planet earth. It could have pushed interactive fiction to massive heights. Would have been the biggest game ever. But we got woke trash. Jesus. 🤯🤯🤯🤯
This commentator person doesn't even understand gameplay.
This is great! You are right that there is something there, but in my opinion the constraints of the gameplay always feels like it holds back the overall package.
I am *SO* glad Detroit did not opt for a cover-based shooter option here 11:00 ! Not every game has to be a shooter, especially not the few who dare stray from your run-of-the-mill "triple A" CoDs. It would even hurt the game, because the player cannot possibly play like a machine (android). On a sidenote: I'm (now at age 33) a casual gamer and hate when games like Unchrated or Tomb Raider try to be a shooter (which never works well, because their not) without another option, because more than once this has severly interrupted my progress and satisfaction with the game experience.
"I'm not some pretentious wannabe game designer that's searching for existentialism through a haze of bong smoke." - Lord Tonald Loke, Our Savior
you were amazing on efap!
Why does everybody use that name?
Lmao that's an awesome quote!
I got into gaming when I got my ps3 (ps4 was already around for couple of years) and I brought Heavy rain, Beyond, and TLOU, because I've heard of them so much. Started with Cage's games first, so when I played TLOU and failed for the first time, was really surprised for a second to see Joel being torn apart by infected and "game over" screen. And, well, TLOU is polar opposite of Cage's games especially with that finale. I think interactivity to this degree is a gameplay on itself and it's reasonable to compromise with "game" part in favour of branching narrative and replayability. There always be a market for that as long as story is strong. Couldn't play Detroit myself, but watched all there is on UA-cam when it came out and enjoyed it. Story isn't perfect, but totally agree that it's an experience more than anything.
Keep up the good work and it was joy to hear you on EFAP. You're doing great.
I loved this game & the concepts that are explored through playing it. Nice work Tone!
Holy crap, 30 minutes of Tone?!?! Man, I better get the popcorn--I'm in for a treat! Loving this, Tone!
Games like these are great to bring people that are not familiar with gaming into more gameplay based titles. It also pushes regular games to push towards more narrative driven choices. WIN WIN.
I honestly loved the game but I do disagree with your assessment on the criticism towards female characters. Cara is a hero for sure but her whole depiction is pretty stereotypical. She‘s a pretty white character who acts submissive, soft and gentle and often behaves hesitantly and motherly. What else does cara have going for her other than wanting to protect Alice and be her mom? Well she‘s pro rebellion ofc but generally I‘d say not much. She doesn‘t seem to have any other life goals other than Alice. To me she just feels empty tbh. Aside from hesitant little damsel who tries to survive the many big bad wolfs thrown at her and wanting to mother a child she‘s got noting else that really defines her. Aka literally the stereotype of the suburban submissive housewife. Just sprinkled in a little self defense and stuff but that‘s it.
The other women (forgot her name been a long time) who lead the rebellion wirh marcus imo was much better because she had motivations and a distinct voice. She just felt more real to me as a woman myself. I think that‘s also why so many people love Connor so much. He‘s got perhaps the biggest character arc of em all and he did really change through his arc unlike the others. Sure Marcus became a leader and Cara did save Alice and herself in the end (if u count the good ending as canon) but only one character really had a arc lead to change in his character and that‘s connor. And I‘d argue that‘s what makes relateable characters as well. Humans change all the time. Look back on urself from 5 years ago and you‘ll see that. It‘s natural. Change is fluid and neverending for humans. And so should our fictional characters. They shouldn‘t experience all this shit and come out the same as before. They should advance and change through it like we do. If they don‘t it feels artificial. And I‘d argue Cara got it the worst here.
What I‘d have preferred for her would be to start off as subserviant and gentle and change due to not only fear and survival instinct but also gain confidence. I never really felt like she did gain much. She started like a scared rabbit and felt just the same at the end. Just free from the threat. Cara didn‘t discover who she is, what she wants for herself, who she wants to be and she doesn‘t really have a bigger connection to any character either except for alice wich also doesn‘t extend beyond basic „perfect“ mom behavior. To me she‘s just a walking talking stereotype. The only thing missing here is a man saving her. Her arc felt more like a propaganda piece on how fragile, incompetent and submissive women are when left alone in a dangerous situation and having to fend for themselves. And that‘s exactly because Cara never advances, she never gains more confidence. At least it really doesn‘t feel like it to me. Change would be what Marcus went throuxh for example. A lost and confused young man to a strong determined leader for justice. He has a clear change. From being hesitant to ever express himself or speak up to speaking up loudly and proudly. That‘s real development. Not just surviving through hours and hours and not changing a single bit only ever being the „mom“ character with no personality. And that‘s what ppl didn‘t like. It‘s the fact that most struggle for women in his games are men overpowering women, trying to mutilate them, abuse them, assault them or control them. It‘s the same with Maddison in Heavy rain. She‘s victimized multiple times in the games by men. Not to mention the guy who taxidermized women. All women seem to get in his games is being the pretty little pig to be slaughtered trying to not be by the scary man. And that‘s it. They are just either a love interest for the protag or a stereotype immune to character development. The rebellion woman in detroit was the only one who broke the mold and she also was then again just thrown in to be the obligatory love interest for the „real main character“ marcus.
I gotta say I‘m quite sick of men claiming there aren‘t sexist undertones cause there are and maybe you should listen to the women who say so and hear them out before speaking for them yet again claiming they are full of sh“t cause you know everything better. You can‘t speak from the same perspective we do because you aren‘t a woman. That doesn‘t mean you can‘t agree or disagree but you saying „it‘s not sexist so stfu.“ isn‘t gonna make it less sexist. That‘s honestly why I get mad over these things. Women are gaming as well. Always have been yet we‘ve been misrepresented and used as accessories for male heroes in games for so long it‘s bone dry and boring aside from utterly insulting. Women are human beings for gods sake. We aren‘t some mythological creature you can‘t comprehend. We are mostly the same aside from miniscule differences and if you spemt time with women you‘d know this too. But the dismissal of women‘s criticism towards games like this has to stop cause women play these games too. It isn‘t all about you all the time. It‘s about everyone who plays. And that includes women. And it‘ll take more to convince me the game‘s not got these sexist undertones than a guy getting triggered women yet again dared to critisize your precious games and replying in the most naggy, bitter way possible.
So you basically went a "pacifist route" for Kara and complain that YOUR CHOICES make her like that ...
Kara can kill Todd and several guards, rob a store and set Zlatko's house on fire. She can also leave Alice behind at least twice.
Woman wants to be a mother and be left alone with all that heroic bullshit. And you found her unrealistic? Kara is the most realistic character in the game because she's average.
22:31
If I recall correctly, the Android rebellion cannot succeed (at least not without major losses) if North leads in Marcus’ place. She either dies by US soldiers, is shot by Connor, or is spared by Connor but the rebellion has been crushed and everyone she loved is dead by then. The odds are stacked up against her immensely when compared to Markus. Some would say because North is aggressive in her tactics but Markus can be aggressive as well and still have better chances.
there's so much different outcomes, i started the game 2 months ago and i still accidentally spoil myself on scenes i haven't come across because the different roads are so vast. my brother bought the game for me and there's times when i hesitate to play it because i'm so overwhelmed by what i can do and what can happen. i want to talk about the game with fans, but i stop myself everytime because then i remember that they know all possible moments in the game and i don't. so i'm just stuck in this bog right now lol.
To be honest, I do agree that it could’ve been a tv series and much like the Bandersnatch episode of Black Mirror the multiple choice story could still work. Great video !!
I love the idea of one of the playable characters being human, that could have been really interesting,
I love this take but I just cant relate to his opinion on the controls. I LOVE the QTE's. It's another element playing into the butterfly effect. Instead of a question and answer choice, it's a quick on the spot choice (or move) that you need to make that could change the game entirely! Its awesome. Thats why until dawn is also so cool. I think these butterfly effect games thrive when they use QTE's
Really would love to see The las of us get this same sort of treatment when you play the sequel, from your comments on EFAP it sounds like you have a lot of passion for the original. Thank you for your appearance on EFAP 100. can’t wait to see your next video have been loving your content.
This game is definitely for me.. I've played twice and I also saw the "Kara" short when it released way before the game, and I've always been totally obsessed with the whole concept, I love it 💙
I think, its good in that it tried a lot of things. But there are definitely a lot of things that didn't quite land. I hope they keep developing and iterating on it
This game deserves a hit TV show.
"You didn't play the game the way I wanted you to play, so now you're punished and you're going to come back and play it again until you do what I want you to do"
If that isn't ironic, I don't know what is.
I don't really play games, but I just watched EFAP 100 and you were an amazing guest. Thank you so much for coming on and may The Don bless you
How great is this video, I mean really the content of this channel is just getting better our Lord Tonald has become a long man!
As a non gamer Detroit is great control wise because it's simple and easy to remember for my squirrel brain.
I don't think that D:BH would have been much different if it was an interactive cinematic, like something that Netflix did with Black Mirror or Markiplier has done on UA-cam in the past. I appreciate and understand that some aspects would only work in a game, like the detective work Connor can only do because the player is directly controlling the character. I don't, however, believe that the story or experience is driven by this gameplay, or that QTEs are what drive the heightened anxiety in certain scenes, I can get those same moments by watching a TV show or a movie.
While I agree with most of your points I would say that it's kind of stupid to not like the game or say that its "okay" just cause you didn't get to do the action scenes yourself. The whole POINT of the game was to tell a story, not to have the player beat people up. If you wanted to play a game like that why play Detriot? I think games that follow more of a story than just combat and beating the shit out of people are way more fun and complicated. Also if they did let the player do the fighting scenes it probably would have looked way worse, since the game is made to almost look like a movie, to put choppy fighting scenes in would have ruined the feeling. And this game was made by having real actors play out the part, LIKE A MOVIE. They would have had to completely change how they animated the characters just to let you hit a couple of guys. Idk I just think its stupid to rate such a good game "okay" cause you wanted to punch people by pushing buttons which is what you complained about in the first place. In the end, the game isn't meant to be an action game its a storytelling game and it told a great fucking story.
I’m glad i subscribed. As you talked about choice, I thought about morality in gaming. Some games make you feel bad for the outcomes but there was no way to prevent it, while what you present seems like you can feel good or bad and that’s on you. Can’t speak about story quality myself because I didn’t play the game, but that factor of “you create your effect by creating the cause” is amazing
We can hear the passion for this project in your voice. Continue the good work!
After years, Detroit is still the best choice-based interactive game I've ever played. Telltale's TWD S1 was .y favorite until this game releases, I understand how telltale's stories, characters and choices are not that great once I finished Detroit. I've played the game after my sister and both of the endings we got are very different from each other. Also the theme of the game was great. All of the 3 mc's are interesting and they have their own character developments and motivations makes the game amazing. It's one of the few games that I've rated 10/10. Of course there are some things that I didn't like about the game such as how the principal withdraws the units after she sees Markus and North's kiss, that was just a weak moment fr but there is no game, movie, series which are perfect.
well, as a shit gamer, i liked the fact that the gameplay was simple, so not to pull me out of the story. and by shit gamer, for the first hours i had to look down to the controller to remember were the buttons were. this is the only game i was able to play and talk about with my friend because the most interesting thing for us was the story and the characters. and my friend who is actually competent could share something he liked with someone who wouldn't normally enjoy it.
so, i get the bad game mechanics argument, but it has its perks ^^
To be fair, the last Telltale Batman game did give you a couple hours of drastically different story line to play at the end of the game depending on your choices but otherwise your correct telltale was infamous for giving you a false illusion of choice.
I really can't get enough of these types of videos. Really well done and great storytelling.
The only reason the button prompts exist is to give you the ability to fail and have consequences for picking certain actions, hence adding to more butterfly effect pathways. Gameplay isn’t the point, to turn these sections into fully fleshed out game mechanics would be completely unnecessary and take away from the pace of the story and the impact of your mistakes. Sometimes it’s okay for a game to not be a traditional cookie cutter beat em up or action adventure title, some games don’t have to have everything, because it takes away from what the point of the game really is, to tell you a story of your making.
I feel like the section on the victimisation of women felt uninformed and like you were just batting away a genuine discussion with shallow points
It’s frustrating when a game claims to offer “choice”, but forces a narrative.