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My theory is that the Old Ones planted the seed which is Humanity before they left or went extinct. Think 4D chess but bio engineering. Every stage of evolution, predetermined. Humanity itself would be engineered to ultimately birth an ultimate life form, a weapon against chaos. Emps. This weapon would itself be driven to oppose and calm the chaos of the Ocean of Souls. I believe Emps is ascending into a true god of the warp, and that he will be the god of Mercy and Order. Once he's reunited with the Star Child, that is. Otherwise he still could become the Dark King, god of tyrants and destruction. A god of primordial Malice, made manifest.
Just realized the Shaman story could be an allegory for the Old Ones. Like several of the remaining Old Ones deliberately delete themselves and soul merge to form the entity that would become the Emperor, nesting themselves within a specie that had not yet awoken it's psychic potential to hide from the forces of the Warp. Kind of similar to how the Necrons would also put themselves to sleep for eons.
I always wondered what Neoths true form is, considering he constantly glamour's his appearance. Maybe Neoth found an Old One willing to teach him or bind to his soul when he entered the Warp at Moloch. My head is full of big "What If's".
@@TheLostPrimarch Yes and I also think Corax saw something briefly if my memory is working tonight. Nice vid, keep going. You'll be a big 40k Lore channel, you have a nice format and topics.
I think the parallel of: The shamans giving their lives to create the Emperor; and: the Old Ones creating the Emperor in their final moments; Kinda has that distorted history feeling to it? Either way, since the Emperor is our oldest eye witness, and he doesn't seem to know (or want to tell), its all a nice big mystery. I always enjoyed the idea he's a creation of the Old Ones, personally.
The short life is relative. Life at that time in the galaxy lived a very long time but the Necrontyr lived about the same length or slightly shorter to humanity. In fact, humanity as a creation of the old ones was at least in part, some strange recreation of the Necrontyr w/o the C'tan tormenting their species via their sun. In fact, humanity is so like them that necron tech is in fact fully compatible with human flesh. In books the necrons talk about it being that humanity is the first race that has been the case and so some of the rogue Dynasties who want to return to flesh are working on humans as a base resource for that endeavor.
Probably because the cause was not genetic, but a sort of curse from the C'tan that was feeding on their start ( The Nightbringer), and as such, even moving from their home star system, or simple genetic engineering was not enough to say them. This curse may have also played into why the Old Ones didn't help them.
Lol the nerco even with their tech cannot not to reverse their metal life and get back their souls. So their tech is aim at destroy not at creating life
I do believe that there might be some truth to it, as the Old Ones were some of the most powerful psykers in all of existence, however it would not explain why they would have created the Emperor to be only Human focus considering that the Old Ones valued all forms of life.
Why did they create the Eldar with a predilection that would eventually birth Slaneesh, why would they create the orcs with no way to progress beyond an unending and near unbending obsession with constant war. All of those make sense if they never expected to be completely unable to guide and control their creations. Desperation and short sightedness is in pretty much all their creations.
I like the idea that the Emps is the last Old One. Knowing that he would eventually perish as the last of his race, he chose to live amongst a race that he saw as being able to achieve what his people could not, or at least to shepherd them along so that they may survive. During his time living with humanity he essentially "went native" as they say and sees humanity as his surrogate people. And due to his incomprehensible warp power, he has partially "become" human. The Primarchs, his "children", are his warped (pun intended) attempt at procreation with humanity but also knew they had to serve a purpose as he suspected his end was getting closer. He needed them to carry on as proto-shepherds.
if that were true, then it would mean the old ones were just as powerful as big e (or more powerful) and wouldnt have lost the war. you know, since big e defeated the void dragon. so i doubt this is the case.
@@tooslow4065The void dragon was severely weakened by the Time Big E got to him. Also the Krorks are a much more powerful creation then the locked primarchs (primarchs who haven’t unlocked their warp powers fully).
I feel that while plausible, Big E is humanity's own making. The Eldari have an enormous psyker capacity, while the Orks have a permanent lingering connection to the Warp that allow the WAAGH and their tech to function. Even the Jokaero are hinted to have psychic abilities, from their instinctive knowhow to create tech, but also some of that tech requiring psychic input. While we do have psyckers, before the birth of Slaanesh they were few and far between. We do have, unlike any other race besides the Slaught, nulls. We also have perpetuals, not susceptible to Chaos taint (Chaos also has their perpetuals like Lucius or Mordrac, but they became so after their corruption). The anathema, pariah gene, perpetuals, are our evolutionary response to Chaos, also because, few species are as susceptible to its taint than Humanity. Keep in mind it took the Eldari about 60 millions of years to birth Slannesh while Humanity brithed 3 Chaos Gods a couple centuries apart in about 3 million.
They all could also be genetic experimentation in the age of strife. Some last eeffort to win aganist the man of iron or some clandestine experimentation that survived
Wait, wait, wait. There’s a gaping flaw in “humans have a connection to old ones” bit. If the war in heaven took place 65 million years ago, not only were humans not around, neither were primates or anything resembling apes. At best there existed mammals the size of shrews. Good video though
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t there a surviving old one that was leading the Hrud during the great crusade and was implied to have created humanity?
I think the line from that Terran leader that Constantine assassinated about the Emperor being an escaped weapon from the golden age is more interesting than this Old One concept. 40k's propensity to eventually explain everything away as "warp related shenanigans" grows tiresome.
I think both origin stories do not contradict each other. Emperor himself can be both old ones project and united shamans at the same time. It's possible that psycher genes and shaman ritual both provided by old ones and can be replicated by humanity but no one knows the secret to ascension except GE man.
Great video! Couldn't help but notice that you said the Old Ones were "playing God." Is that just your opinion or is it stated in the text somewhere? Genuinely interested in your opinion about what makes their "playing God" worse than the Necrons, the Emperor, or the Eldar, especially since I consider those races so much more morally compromised.
That was my personal opinion. Example: While the Emperor altered only humans, the Old Ones created entirely new species, seeded them on planets, thry are the reason why Warp is what it is today.
Day 3 of my English teacher encouragement. You don’t miss a single article. I’d accuse you of using AI but even Chat GPT forgets an ‘a/an/the/nothing’ sometimes. Even among my highest level students I still catch the occasional missed article, because it’s probably the hardest thing for students with languages that don’t use them. Well done.
Maybe that's the deep warp, the calm state. And it switched to the chaotic state. When the warp was peaceful the deep warp may not have been. That's what chaos fears most, peace? Also when the bird demon was thrown into the deep warp there is no telling what the effects of entering back into the warp would do. Maybe it turned good and peaceful and then came back and was changed again due to the chaotic influence.
How can it be that within the immaterium everything that will ever happen has already happen, while also still not having been/become at the time, the chaotic realm we're familiar with in 40k? Grandfather Paradox. Like all paradoxes, time paradoxes are by the nature of themselves, contradictory and without solution... But theres still variables pertaining to them that lead to the circular logic that creates them. Another example of this type of paradox would be the terminator franchise, specifically terminators 1 and 2. We know what Skynet will exist and that it will do everything it can to both ensure its creation as well as continued existence.... And we know that through Skynet's behavior in the future, it ended up creating itself in the past by sending the T-800 into the past to kill Sarah Conner... which ended up leaving that terminator in the past to be reverse engineered, resulting in skynet. So how can The immaterium always be as it was while also eventually developing into it? its Cyclical and Constant. Sidenote: also makes me think about the Immortal Jellyfish, which rubberbands through its developmental stages, resulting in it being biologically immortal. Sidenote: Sidenote: Time is Jeremy Bearimy
While everything that will happen has happened, causuality still take precedence. Slannesh wouldn't be born till 30M but could still influence thing before its birth
@@dean_l33 Yep, Slaanesh didnt always exist but at the same time did; that's an example of the cyclical and constant aspect of the immaterium. Slaanesh was always there in some essence even though it wouldnt be "born" until the eldar's degeneracy hit an apex. Similar to how the terminator predated skynet, which lead to skynet's development, even though skynet created the terminator.
I think any similarities between the stories of the old ones and the emperor, in particular their fall due to hubris, can be more reasonably explained as thematic mirroring than a specific in universe connection. The idea that people fail to learn from history and allow the horrors of the past to repeat is entirely within the scope of 40k's political commentary.
Random idea I had was the emperor is the offspring of both the old ones and a ctan. Warp and material being. Tho the Eldar and orks are also material. Emperor might be an old one? He has multiple souls, maybe he's the combination of multiple old ones or multiple beings.
haven't started the vid but my head cannon is that the old ones made humans not the emperor they made us to make him and empower him with the way humans think he's a god and if a lot of them believe that then who's to say he's not a god?
So the Necrontyr lived short lives but is it ever mentioned how short? Until they met other species they wouldn't have anything to compare with and as such would not know how comparatively short their lives where. If they first ran into the "Old ones" that is on the other extreme on the livespan it would be no wounder if they felt left out.
Except humans and the Emperor are waaaaay too late/young for the Old Ones. They went down when evolution has humanity's supposed ancestors being kitten brained endangered lemurs. It would have made more sense to uplift one of the dinosaurs covering the earth. IMO, GW gave up the entire C'Tan-Old Ones did everything and today is all their fault when they got rid of the pariahs, which used to be Necron meddling. Of course, of the C'Tan, GW got three of the last four of them as supposed shards (really two, since there is no Void Dragon shard in play), but still hasn't covered how they got the Outsider, the insane C'Tan living in a Dyson sphere in intergalactic space that hive fleets avoid...
I don't like the idea of the Emperor being an Old One creation. While he does fit their sort of epic design, I want him to be a product of humanity. Flaws and all. But that aside, what a great synopsis of the Old Ones, C'tan, and Necrons.
The shaman story always came across as corny to me. This is way more interesting. A lot like the "star child" idea where they need to find all his offspring or whatever and he'll come back to life...Stupid.
I think the myth of the creation of the Emperor is just BS. All the stuff about him is just one big lie made of many lies. I see his creation at the hands of some xeno as more plausible, maybe by the old space frogs or maybe some other species. Whenever I hear the tale of the Emperor I can't help but think of the Wizard of Oz and his great secret. A little man behind a curtain.
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My theory is that the Old Ones planted the seed which is Humanity before they left or went extinct. Think 4D chess but bio engineering. Every stage of evolution, predetermined.
Humanity itself would be engineered to ultimately birth an ultimate life form, a weapon against chaos. Emps.
This weapon would itself be driven to oppose and calm the chaos of the Ocean of Souls.
I believe Emps is ascending into a true god of the warp, and that he will be the god of Mercy and Order. Once he's reunited with the Star Child, that is. Otherwise he still could become the Dark King, god of tyrants and destruction. A god of primordial Malice, made manifest.
Just realized the Shaman story could be an allegory for the Old Ones. Like several of the remaining Old Ones deliberately delete themselves and soul merge to form the entity that would become the Emperor, nesting themselves within a specie that had not yet awoken it's psychic potential to hide from the forces of the Warp. Kind of similar to how the Necrons would also put themselves to sleep for eons.
I like this
I always wondered what Neoths true form is, considering he constantly glamour's his appearance. Maybe Neoth found an Old One willing to teach him or bind to his soul when he entered the Warp at Moloch. My head is full of big "What If's".
Sisters of Silence see him as a old tired man
@@TheLostPrimarch Yes and I also think Corax saw something briefly if my memory is working tonight. Nice vid, keep going. You'll be a big 40k Lore channel, you have a nice format and topics.
The Emperor is basically a normal human but very evolved psychically. Btw never use the name Neoth ever again
@@dean_l33the name is used tho in the books
@@noobatgames3321 Not cannon
I think the parallel of: The shamans giving their lives to create the Emperor; and: the Old Ones creating the Emperor in their final moments;
Kinda has that distorted history feeling to it?
Either way, since the Emperor is our oldest eye witness, and he doesn't seem to know (or want to tell), its all a nice big mystery. I always enjoyed the idea he's a creation of the Old Ones, personally.
I'd be more inclined to believe it if they said the old ones planted the seed which is Humanity, which itself would birth the ultimate life form.
dont forget time does not matter in the warp
The Necrontyr were so advanced they could not alter their gene code......
The short life is relative. Life at that time in the galaxy lived a very long time but the Necrontyr lived about the same length or slightly shorter to humanity. In fact, humanity as a creation of the old ones was at least in part, some strange recreation of the Necrontyr w/o the C'tan tormenting their species via their sun. In fact, humanity is so like them that necron tech is in fact fully compatible with human flesh. In books the necrons talk about it being that humanity is the first race that has been the case and so some of the rogue Dynasties who want to return to flesh are working on humans as a base resource for that endeavor.
@@meatybtz except necron weapons explode when the necron wielder dies. no human has yet been able to operate one.
Probably because the cause was not genetic, but a sort of curse from the C'tan that was feeding on their start ( The Nightbringer), and as such, even moving from their home star system, or simple genetic engineering was not enough to say them. This curse may have also played into why the Old Ones didn't help them.
Lol the nerco even with their tech cannot not to reverse their metal life and get back their souls. So their tech is aim at destroy not at creating life
I do believe that there might be some truth to it, as the Old Ones were some of the most powerful psykers in all of existence, however it would not explain why they would have created the Emperor to be only Human focus considering that the Old Ones valued all forms of life.
The emperor could have gone rogue or the shamans sacrifice changed the emperor?
Why did they create the Eldar with a predilection that would eventually birth Slaneesh, why would they create the orcs with no way to progress beyond an unending and near unbending obsession with constant war. All of those make sense if they never expected to be completely unable to guide and control their creations. Desperation and short sightedness is in pretty much all their creations.
In all the lore it never said the old one are psyker at all they might not be psyker all but they sure do know how alter or create psyker
I like the idea that the Emps is the last Old One. Knowing that he would eventually perish as the last of his race, he chose to live amongst a race that he saw as being able to achieve what his people could not, or at least to shepherd them along so that they may survive. During his time living with humanity he essentially "went native" as they say and sees humanity as his surrogate people. And due to his incomprehensible warp power, he has partially "become" human. The Primarchs, his "children", are his warped (pun intended) attempt at procreation with humanity but also knew they had to serve a purpose as he suspected his end was getting closer. He needed them to carry on as proto-shepherds.
if that were true, then it would mean the old ones were just as powerful as big e (or more powerful) and wouldnt have lost the war. you know, since big e defeated the void dragon. so i doubt this is the case.
@@tooslow4065The void dragon was severely weakened by the Time Big E got to him. Also the Krorks are a much more powerful creation then the locked primarchs (primarchs who haven’t unlocked their warp powers fully).
The Old Ones took too many ayahuasca mojitos.
Your theories are getting more and more crazy, and Im all here for it! :D
I feel that while plausible, Big E is humanity's own making.
The Eldari have an enormous psyker capacity, while the Orks have a permanent lingering connection to the Warp that allow the WAAGH and their tech to function. Even the Jokaero are hinted to have psychic abilities, from their instinctive knowhow to create tech, but also some of that tech requiring psychic input.
While we do have psyckers, before the birth of Slaanesh they were few and far between. We do have, unlike any other race besides the Slaught, nulls. We also have perpetuals, not susceptible to Chaos taint (Chaos also has their perpetuals like Lucius or Mordrac, but they became so after their corruption).
The anathema, pariah gene, perpetuals, are our evolutionary response to Chaos, also because, few species are as susceptible to its taint than Humanity.
Keep in mind it took the Eldari about 60 millions of years to birth Slannesh while Humanity brithed 3 Chaos Gods a couple centuries apart in about 3 million.
They all could also be genetic experimentation in the age of strife. Some last eeffort to win aganist the man of iron or some clandestine experimentation that survived
If the Old Ones created the webway, then they could had surely created a being like the Emperor who even Eldar are awed by
Old ones are responsible for humanity so yeah
Have a hand in it, yes but we don't know how much of our evolution they are responsible for it
What if emps is actually games workshop
Wait, wait, wait. There’s a gaping flaw in “humans have a connection to old ones” bit.
If the war in heaven took place 65 million years ago, not only were humans not around, neither were primates or anything resembling apes. At best there existed mammals the size of shrews.
Good video though
There is no way to know that primates didn't evolve because of them
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t there a surviving old one that was leading the Hrud during the great crusade and was implied to have created humanity?
He is so flawed that can be only a human creation. More likely he was engineered in the golden age
What if..
The Old Ones were the Men of Gold... what if they are our true ancestors and the Emperor was simply the first true man?
I think the line from that Terran leader that Constantine assassinated about the Emperor being an escaped weapon from the golden age is more interesting than this Old One concept. 40k's propensity to eventually explain everything away as "warp related shenanigans" grows tiresome.
I like to think the Emperor is a man of gold that knew how to create lesser versions of himself i.e. the Custodes. 🤔
Yet again awesome video ❤
Thank you so much 😀
I think both origin stories do not contradict each other. Emperor himself can be both old ones project and united shamans at the same time. It's possible that psycher genes and shaman ritual both provided by old ones and can be replicated by humanity but no one knows the secret to ascension except GE man.
Plot twist: what if humans are just the form the old ones started out as.
As an evolutionary fallback? That would be interesting, a way to preserve tgeir own species by reversing evolution and letting it rerun again
The emperor is the emperor simple as
Two sisters are boxed up and being sent to you for 2days of outstanding lore.
Great video! Couldn't help but notice that you said the Old Ones were "playing God." Is that just your opinion or is it stated in the text somewhere? Genuinely interested in your opinion about what makes their "playing God" worse than the Necrons, the Emperor, or the Eldar, especially since I consider those races so much more morally compromised.
They created Eldars, for example
That was my personal opinion. Example: While the Emperor altered only humans, the Old Ones created entirely new species, seeded them on planets, thry are the reason why Warp is what it is today.
The Olde Ones floated around the galaxy on thrones....
Day 3 of my English teacher encouragement.
You don’t miss a single article. I’d accuse you of using AI but even Chat GPT forgets an ‘a/an/the/nothing’ sometimes.
Even among my highest level students I still catch the occasional missed article, because it’s probably the hardest thing for students with languages that don’t use them.
Well done.
People were pestering me about it, so now I pay extra attention.
unless the shamans that sacrificed themselves were doing the old ones work...then no
Maybe that's the deep warp, the calm state. And it switched to the chaotic state. When the warp was peaceful the deep warp may not have been.
That's what chaos fears most, peace?
Also when the bird demon was thrown into the deep warp there is no telling what the effects of entering back into the warp would do. Maybe it turned good and peaceful and then came back and was changed again due to the chaotic influence.
And maybe fhat made him insane, tgat duality switch
If we're gonna compare the Old Ones to the Precursors then we could also say that the Star Roads and Webway is pretty similar.
How can it be that within the immaterium everything that will ever happen has already happen, while also still not having been/become at the time, the chaotic realm we're familiar with in 40k? Grandfather Paradox.
Like all paradoxes, time paradoxes are by the nature of themselves, contradictory and without solution... But theres still variables pertaining to them that lead to the circular logic that creates them. Another example of this type of paradox would be the terminator franchise, specifically terminators 1 and 2. We know what Skynet will exist and that it will do everything it can to both ensure its creation as well as continued existence.... And we know that through Skynet's behavior in the future, it ended up creating itself in the past by sending the T-800 into the past to kill Sarah Conner... which ended up leaving that terminator in the past to be reverse engineered, resulting in skynet.
So how can The immaterium always be as it was while also eventually developing into it? its Cyclical and Constant.
Sidenote: also makes me think about the Immortal Jellyfish, which rubberbands through its developmental stages, resulting in it being biologically immortal.
Sidenote: Sidenote: Time is Jeremy Bearimy
While everything that will happen has happened, causuality still take precedence. Slannesh wouldn't be born till 30M but could still influence thing before its birth
@@dean_l33 Yep, Slaanesh didnt always exist but at the same time did; that's an example of the cyclical and constant aspect of the immaterium. Slaanesh was always there in some essence even though it wouldnt be "born" until the eldar's degeneracy hit an apex. Similar to how the terminator predated skynet, which lead to skynet's development, even though skynet created the terminator.
I think any similarities between the stories of the old ones and the emperor, in particular their fall due to hubris, can be more reasonably explained as thematic mirroring than a specific in universe connection. The idea that people fail to learn from history and allow the horrors of the past to repeat is entirely within the scope of 40k's political commentary.
This video is gonna fuck so hard I can tell
Random idea I had was the emperor is the offspring of both the old ones and a ctan.
Warp and material being.
Tho the Eldar and orks are also material.
Emperor might be an old one?
He has multiple souls, maybe he's the combination of multiple old ones or multiple beings.
I always wondered if the ctan were the cause of the necrons cancer because they were feeding on their star
In Balisarius Cawl, The Great Work, Balisarius Cawl is told the Emperor is a weapon by the Ctan shard. Who's weapon I'm not sure? The Old Ones maybe?
haven't started the vid but my head cannon is that the old ones made humans not the emperor they made us to make him and empower him with the way humans think he's a god and if a lot of them believe that then who's to say he's not a god?
I assumed he was the last man of gold
Interesting
Perhaps the human shamans were the actual Old Ones creations. Nerd.
Good point
The ctan says to Belisarius kawl that big E is a weapon
The emperor was born like 100 million years after they all died?
So the Necrontyr lived short lives but is it ever mentioned how short? Until they met other species they wouldn't have anything to compare with and as such would not know how comparatively short their lives where. If they first ran into the "Old ones" that is on the other extreme on the livespan it would be no wounder if they felt left out.
Except humans and the Emperor are waaaaay too late/young for the Old Ones. They went down when evolution has humanity's supposed ancestors being kitten brained endangered lemurs. It would have made more sense to uplift one of the dinosaurs covering the earth.
IMO, GW gave up the entire C'Tan-Old Ones did everything and today is all their fault when they got rid of the pariahs, which used to be Necron meddling.
Of course, of the C'Tan, GW got three of the last four of them as supposed shards (really two, since there is no Void Dragon shard in play), but still hasn't covered how they got the Outsider, the insane C'Tan living in a Dyson sphere in intergalactic space that hive fleets avoid...
I don't like the idea of the Emperor being an Old One creation. While he does fit their sort of epic design, I want him to be a product of humanity. Flaws and all.
But that aside, what a great synopsis of the Old Ones, C'tan, and Necrons.
Hello again, NERD. 👍
I don't know why we need to think that he is to be honest. It seems like a reach anyway with far more counting against it than for it.
Speeeeed
White scar!
Can anyone ask why the early necrons with their advanced technology didn't attend to biology classes.
No. He is not their creation. He IS an Old One
Heresy! Umm... For the sake of cataloguing the full extent of your fall from the true faith, tell me more...
could be that those theories are both true.
The shaman story always came across as corny to me. This is way more interesting.
A lot like the "star child" idea where they need to find all his offspring or whatever and he'll come back to life...Stupid.
I do not like the ending song, the video content was good though
I think the myth of the creation of the Emperor is just BS. All the stuff about him is just one big lie made of many lies. I see his creation at the hands of some xeno as more plausible, maybe by the old space frogs or maybe some other species. Whenever I hear the tale of the Emperor I can't help but think of the Wizard of Oz and his great secret. A little man behind a curtain.
Second
White Scar